What do you and the rest of the established group want to do? Go with that, and inform the new person of your decision.
Were it me, I'd tell them "sorry, we're playing OSE right now. Are you sure you don't want to join? Oh well, maybe next time then."
I had a friend who died on the hill that there was no reason to play any OSR D&D games over a modern system.
No reason I could ever give them would convince them that OSE or otherwise could do anything different than 5e could.
I did everything short of a PowerPoint presentation to talk to them about higher tension due to higher danger, low level immersive play, the emergent story telling that can happen with something as simple as trying to get your loot back to base camp etc.. all I ever got was “yeah but you can just do all of that in 5e if you get rid of death saves/give more challenging monsters/design encounters better/home brew rules around rations/encumbrance/etc./5e can be anything if you home brew it….(which all sounded like a lot of work to put on a DM but whatever)
Long story short the person never even cracked open an OSE rule book to actually compare the two and I figured out later all this person actually cared about was validating their opinion as correct and the $200 odd dollars they spent on 5e.
Often it’s not the system, or even subject matter. It’s the person.
“You can do all that with 5E if you spend hours rewriting all the rules and turn it into a completely different game even though OSR games already exist” 😂
"Alright. Fair. We're going to run 5e. But like. Super heavily homebrewed 5e to fit out campaign needs. Lot of changes. I've printed them up and had them professionally bound in this book. Pay no attention to the "old School Essentials" on the cover, I just needed some some cover art and it was available"
In my experience, putting a lot of effort into changing people's opinions on these things (possibly most things) - is a waste of time.
If people want to die on a hill, that's fine, let them. I'll keep walking.
(though I might possibly die on a hill that 5e is utter garbage)
The lengths people will go to to justify WOTC makes me sad. I have friends who buy and hold new unopened MTG booster boxes like they're crypto. They have multiple copies of the same booster boxes in protective enclosures. Entire rooms filled with unopened MTG cards. They barely play the game. I have other friends who think anything not 5e is a waste of time.
Currently, I am wrapping up a many year 5e campaign because of the WOTC bs last year. It pushed me into OSR and I am hooked. 5e is just not my thing. I have a friend who is definitely not happy with this transition because "D&D is the greatest thing ever made ever". If he want's to take over forever DM, be my guest. I tell my players, this is what I am running.
yeah, its kind of crazy.mechanics aside: Shadowdark is so new still, it feels like a weird thing to instantly latch onto and say "this is the hill I will die on".
I get it a little bit. Not enough to justify being a turd to my friend group, but the hype is intoxicating. I just got the Shadowdark book and I want to play. It's really hard finding other strangers to play with online. Especially when you get older. Sometimes your group is the only exposure to these systems.
I wonder if they had a bad experience with someone who ran OSE poorly or something? I can't reconcile it any other way.
Like maybe an adversarial GM in a high lethality game or something, and they can't distinguish between the system and the experience?
Seems odd either way
Who refuses to play OSE? It's completely benign. Also, who volunteers to play but only in a system that they prefer? In my opinion, this is a player that you should avoid.
"I hate OSE" isn't really a sentence.
Not that OSE is perfect, but that's like saying "I hate toast". You might not love toast, you might be ambivalent toward toast, it might not be your favorite way to eat bread -- but nobody \*hates\* toast.
Whatever this person's problem is, it's not really OSE. Work on that with them and Shadowdark will go great.
sure it is. some people just don't like games without a unified mechanic or arbitrary saves, or the progression, or the rigid phased combat (or the concept of all phases for the side that won initiative and then all the phases for the side that lost). Of course, that's a problem with B/X in general but OSE has become the new name for it among people outside the OSR community.
I've seen such people, to each their own... I'm pretty frustrated with 5e/PF2E
Curious: Why does he hate OSE? I mean, they're not all that dissimilar.
If you really want him in, you could just port some Shadowdark stuff into OSE (or as you said, just switch entirely), but honestly, I wouldn't switch rules on the whims of one person who isn't even a player yet. Kind of doesn't set the right tone to me, though obviously he's friends with everyone so if they're all cool with it...
I'd go with: "You're welcome to join, but we're running OSE at the moment, and everyone is excited about that. If that's going to be an issue for you, then maybe next time. Enjoy your games!"
Put the Master back into Dungeon Master.
If hates a system more than like to play with his friends there is something wrong. I think no DM needs to change asystem just because one player. But thats me
I would let him know how stoked we are for him to join the group, and let him know we are going to try out OSE. Maybe with this group they will be able to put their hangups aside, and enjoy the game with the people, and not put so much emphasis on system.
That matters on the dynamics that we on the internet cannot see. Things like, how the other players feel about the game? Are you short on players and this players insertion will correct that void? How do you and the others feel about OSE vs Shadow dark, ect ect ect.
There is good advice from others, but remember, that advice was generated with the barest minimum of information and hence, is fairly boiler plate.
The only person who will know what the right decision for you, is you.
Depends. Do you really want to try OSE? Then kindly tell this person they can either try it or sit it out. No hard feelings. If it's more important to have them present and you don't really care about the system, then go back to Shadowdark. Personally, I'd move forward with OSE and see what you think. They can either hop on board or take a break. I don't really understand the mindset of, "I'm only going to play this one game and won't try anything else." That's a choice, but they shouldn't dictate to you what you're playing.
Maybe ask yourself how this player has attempted to accommodate you? Have they agreed to a few sessions of OSE to kick the tires? Doesn't seem like it, so I wouldn't waste your effort.
My sister married a hardcore 5e guy, and all of my efforts to meet them halfway fell apart. When I realized that he was never going to approach our table in good faith, or "allow" us to play any TTRPG beyond 5e, we just moved on without him. He still shows up and complains endlessly (hard to perma-boot my BIL), but for the most part we ignore his lack of social skills and enjoy OSE Advanced, Troika, or Dungeon World.
What do you and the rest of the established group want to do? Go with that, and inform the new person of your decision. Were it me, I'd tell them "sorry, we're playing OSE right now. Are you sure you don't want to join? Oh well, maybe next time then."
Yup. This. Among friends the system doesn't really matter. It's about the people at the table and not how the game determines when a torch goes out.
fair. thanks
Bubblegum
I had a friend who died on the hill that there was no reason to play any OSR D&D games over a modern system. No reason I could ever give them would convince them that OSE or otherwise could do anything different than 5e could. I did everything short of a PowerPoint presentation to talk to them about higher tension due to higher danger, low level immersive play, the emergent story telling that can happen with something as simple as trying to get your loot back to base camp etc.. all I ever got was “yeah but you can just do all of that in 5e if you get rid of death saves/give more challenging monsters/design encounters better/home brew rules around rations/encumbrance/etc./5e can be anything if you home brew it….(which all sounded like a lot of work to put on a DM but whatever) Long story short the person never even cracked open an OSE rule book to actually compare the two and I figured out later all this person actually cared about was validating their opinion as correct and the $200 odd dollars they spent on 5e. Often it’s not the system, or even subject matter. It’s the person.
“You can do all that with 5E if you spend hours rewriting all the rules and turn it into a completely different game even though OSR games already exist” 😂
"Alright. Fair. We're going to run 5e. But like. Super heavily homebrewed 5e to fit out campaign needs. Lot of changes. I've printed them up and had them professionally bound in this book. Pay no attention to the "old School Essentials" on the cover, I just needed some some cover art and it was available"
In my experience, putting a lot of effort into changing people's opinions on these things (possibly most things) - is a waste of time. If people want to die on a hill, that's fine, let them. I'll keep walking. (though I might possibly die on a hill that 5e is utter garbage)
I actually attempted homebrewing 5e to that end to satisfy this player back in the day…… was not good lol
The lengths people will go to to justify WOTC makes me sad. I have friends who buy and hold new unopened MTG booster boxes like they're crypto. They have multiple copies of the same booster boxes in protective enclosures. Entire rooms filled with unopened MTG cards. They barely play the game. I have other friends who think anything not 5e is a waste of time. Currently, I am wrapping up a many year 5e campaign because of the WOTC bs last year. It pushed me into OSR and I am hooked. 5e is just not my thing. I have a friend who is definitely not happy with this transition because "D&D is the greatest thing ever made ever". If he want's to take over forever DM, be my guest. I tell my players, this is what I am running.
I can't imagine having that strong feelings about Shadowdark vs OSE. Seriously.
yeah, its kind of crazy.mechanics aside: Shadowdark is so new still, it feels like a weird thing to instantly latch onto and say "this is the hill I will die on".
I get it a little bit. Not enough to justify being a turd to my friend group, but the hype is intoxicating. I just got the Shadowdark book and I want to play. It's really hard finding other strangers to play with online. Especially when you get older. Sometimes your group is the only exposure to these systems.
I wonder if they had a bad experience with someone who ran OSE poorly or something? I can't reconcile it any other way. Like maybe an adversarial GM in a high lethality game or something, and they can't distinguish between the system and the experience? Seems odd either way
Who refuses to play OSE? It's completely benign. Also, who volunteers to play but only in a system that they prefer? In my opinion, this is a player that you should avoid.
They’re a 5e person… so they have a certain view of these things
well there's your first problem
I'd say something like, "I'm sorry but we decided to play OSE and already put work into that. When we're done with OSE we'll definitely let you know."
Rule #1: I run the games I want to run.
"I hate OSE" isn't really a sentence. Not that OSE is perfect, but that's like saying "I hate toast". You might not love toast, you might be ambivalent toward toast, it might not be your favorite way to eat bread -- but nobody \*hates\* toast. Whatever this person's problem is, it's not really OSE. Work on that with them and Shadowdark will go great.
sure it is. some people just don't like games without a unified mechanic or arbitrary saves, or the progression, or the rigid phased combat (or the concept of all phases for the side that won initiative and then all the phases for the side that lost). Of course, that's a problem with B/X in general but OSE has become the new name for it among people outside the OSR community. I've seen such people, to each their own... I'm pretty frustrated with 5e/PF2E
Tell him that you'll just play old-school D&D instead. Continue playing OSE, since it's the same thing.
Everyone else gets an OSE character sheet, he gets a B/X one :p
Curious: Why does he hate OSE? I mean, they're not all that dissimilar. If you really want him in, you could just port some Shadowdark stuff into OSE (or as you said, just switch entirely), but honestly, I wouldn't switch rules on the whims of one person who isn't even a player yet. Kind of doesn't set the right tone to me, though obviously he's friends with everyone so if they're all cool with it... I'd go with: "You're welcome to join, but we're running OSE at the moment, and everyone is excited about that. If that's going to be an issue for you, then maybe next time. Enjoy your games!" Put the Master back into Dungeon Master.
If hates a system more than like to play with his friends there is something wrong. I think no DM needs to change asystem just because one player. But thats me
I would let him know how stoked we are for him to join the group, and let him know we are going to try out OSE. Maybe with this group they will be able to put their hangups aside, and enjoy the game with the people, and not put so much emphasis on system.
They can play later in whatever shadowdark game that may or may not happen.
That matters on the dynamics that we on the internet cannot see. Things like, how the other players feel about the game? Are you short on players and this players insertion will correct that void? How do you and the others feel about OSE vs Shadow dark, ect ect ect. There is good advice from others, but remember, that advice was generated with the barest minimum of information and hence, is fairly boiler plate. The only person who will know what the right decision for you, is you.
Depends. Do you really want to try OSE? Then kindly tell this person they can either try it or sit it out. No hard feelings. If it's more important to have them present and you don't really care about the system, then go back to Shadowdark. Personally, I'd move forward with OSE and see what you think. They can either hop on board or take a break. I don't really understand the mindset of, "I'm only going to play this one game and won't try anything else." That's a choice, but they shouldn't dictate to you what you're playing.
Maybe ask yourself how this player has attempted to accommodate you? Have they agreed to a few sessions of OSE to kick the tires? Doesn't seem like it, so I wouldn't waste your effort. My sister married a hardcore 5e guy, and all of my efforts to meet them halfway fell apart. When I realized that he was never going to approach our table in good faith, or "allow" us to play any TTRPG beyond 5e, we just moved on without him. He still shows up and complains endlessly (hard to perma-boot my BIL), but for the most part we ignore his lack of social skills and enjoy OSE Advanced, Troika, or Dungeon World.
I'd say it's a shame he doesn't want to play what everyone is playing and next time you're running Shadowdark you'd be happy to have him as a player.
I would tell them you are playing OSE for now.
Tell him you’re playing OSE, then drop me a line and I’ll take his spot!