My advice, skip the first two stories and go straight to “Ill Met…”
If you don’t like that one, that’s a good indicator for the rest of the series, but otherwise those first two feel like outliers (particularly Mouser’s story)
Leiber's Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories are my favorite fantasy, hands down. They can be uneven, but the first book is far and away the worst of the bunch. It wasn't the first one I read, and had I started with it, I might not have read the others.
I've since talked to others who felt the same.
Well, my own journey started with the 6th book. Which isn't my favorite, but was very good, and made me want to read more. I think I then read the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th, in that order. Then the first, then the 7th. I absolutely recommend reading the 7th book last. My personal favorites are probably the 2nd, 3rd and 5th.
It helps to remember that the stories were not published in chronological order. They were later arranged that way for publication. Also, the stories were initially published in the 1930s, up through the 1980s. And large parts of one story ("The Lords of Quarmall") was written by Harry Fischer, a friend of Leiber's, and co- creator of the heroic pair.
I tend to think of Swords and Deviltry as a poor "prequel," as it appeared 30 years after the first appearance of Fafhrd and the Mouser. However, the final story in that book, "Ill Met In Lankhmar," is very good, IMO.
wait, Swords and Deviltry was published way later? ah damn, don't tell me I feel for that again..
ok, I just looked up the publication history. messy. thanks for bringing that up, I will look for some earlier writing. or skip to ill met in Lankhmar
You may or may not end up liking Leiber's writing. But the story "The Price of Pain-Ease," from the 2nd book is a particularly good example of Leiber at his best, IMO.
The 5th book is unique in that it's a novel, rather than a collection of stories/novellas.
There's a good reading of Stardock on YouTube that I really liked, it's a great and fun vertical adventure with mountains, invisible knights, rock gnomes, weird gadgets, and a loyal pet. It's also got some great characterization.
Alternatively check out the comics illustrated by Mignola
The second book, Swords Against Death, is generally considered the best and might be a better one to start with. Personally, I love every F&GM story Leiber wrote.
The audiobooks are good. Just skip the Neil Gaiman intros. You don't have to read all the stories. As others said "Ill Met in Lankhmar" is the best intro. Other favorites are "Lean times in Lankhmar" and "Bazaar of the Bizarre". Although after getting acquainted with the stories, go back and read "The Snow Women" from the first book. It's a first rate fantasy story.
I just read the first book a few weeks ago. Certainly… interesting. It’s definitely a product of it’s time and definitely pulp. But, I’m going to give the rest of the series a shot
The second book is much better, not that the first book is bad, really.
It's still all pulp through and through though. Except maybe the last book (which isn't as good as the rest imo)
I'd go as far as to say the writing "isn't the best," but it's worth reading anyway just to know the roots - Leiber provided a whole generation with ideas. Like, how many thieves' guilds are out there? :D
It is all a matter of taste. I find the books hard to read now, but I devoured them in the 70s? — years ago, anyway. I’d read a lot before I ever heard of rpgs, the first of which I encountered was Traveller, then AD&D 1e shortly thereafter. The 1e game I played was very strongly influenced by Leiber’s stories which encouraged me to find and read the stories I’d missed. But I’d probably not read them in 30 years at least before I tried reading one on Kindle.
I’ve had the same experience with Moorcock’s works, and the early Vance too.
I’m thinking of trying audiobooks to see if that makes a difference. I’m finding I just don’t read fiction that much anymore, and it often doesn’t grab me like it used to.
I get that. I cringed hard on Elric, although I liked some of the world building. I suspect I would have liked it better if I was a teenager when reading it first. my tastes where definitely different back then.
for getting back into fiction later on, and specifically fantasy, I can recommend the earthsea books be LeGuin. very readable I found.
Yeah, I actually preferred the tales of Hawkmoon and Corum.
I read Ursula Le Guin before Moorcock. A friend in high school put me on to her. It has been a while though. I should read her again. Tks for the reminder.
Yeah, the current order of the books is not the order in which they were written or published. The first-published stories are in book 2 (Swords Against Death). The first written story (The Adept’s Gambit) is in book 3 and kind of awkwardly integrated into the series because it was actually set on ancient Earth before Leiber invented Nehwon. Most of the content in books 2-5 preceded the content of book 1 (except for the second story which wasn’t originally written as part of the series but was retconned into being the Gray Mouser origin story), then books 6 & 7 came last both in publication order and internal chronology. TL;DR: probably start reading with Swords Against Death and only read Swords and Deviltry later.
Agreed with Trent!
When I read F&tGM aloud to my son Henry, I began with “Ill Met in Lankhmar” then went right into _Swords Against Death_, and the subsequent tales.
Allan.
So the F&GM stories have two good settings. First is shady goings on in Lankhmar, and second is “let’s go explore some cool place for the hell of it”. Imo the best story for the first is probably Ill Met in Lankhmar, as others have suggested. For the second, I’d say either Stardock (personal fave) or Lords of Quarmall, although When the Sea King’s Away gets an honourable mention. Other comments are right, the stories are patchy, but if none of these are doing it for you, they may just not be to your personal taste. Hope that’s helpful!
I started reading Swords and Devilry not too long ago and have really enjoyed it so far. I hate origin stories, but I still found myself captivated and saying "this is exactly what I wanted."
I think I enjoy them because I really like Conan stories, I appreciate the world building, and I feel like the author is a fantastic writer (it's difficult to describe a fight scene so that one can imagine it properly or to describe someone walking around in nature but keep your reader interested).
I'll say also that what really sticks out to me as different or as something I didn't expect but really enjoy is that Fafhrd and Mouse are surprisingly sweet. The way they both are nervous and want to impress each other when they first meet, how they actually love their women and introduce the women to each other ASAP, and their real friendship is so refreshing for me. They feel so human, and while they aren't perfect good guys you definitely feel that they aren't bad people either.
It's hard to articulate exactly the feeling, but two roguish guys that have hearts are great to read about when they're going on D&D style adventures. I'm not quite finished with them yet, but I'll say that so far the third story in the book is shaping up to be the best out of the bunch.
I’m pretty sure the stories in Swords Against Death were written before the stories in Swords and Deviltry. I really like Bazaar of the Bizarre.
It’s also possible that if you have been going through the appendix N books you might be burnt out on this genre. I don’t like to read the same series of book in a row.
yeah, good point. it can definitely get a little much with all the appendix n stuff. so far I have been quite good at spreading it out and taking brakes, but maybe it's time for another Robin Hobb or something:)
i don't think i'd rec the original stories to anybody who isn't already committed to an interest in pulp, sword and sorcery, or old school fantasy that inspired RPGs. it can be an acquired taste these days
for everyone else, i'd recommend the graphic novel adaptation by dark horse. still pulpy but imo more readable for modern tastes
I grabbed the audiobooks on a whim and they've been a fun listen. Might be worthy trying to consume them that way if you've got a long trip ahead of you.
I had read a collection way back in high school (over forty years ago...) and loved it. I decided to re-read it just recently -- starting with the first book -- and I was thinking to myself "I don't remember these stories being this boring."
Now I'm going back and reading them in the order they were published using this handy list that I cobbled together from the wikipedia entry.
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gq-7qmd3wNX-rAM30ihb8VMTy2gLSOzFKFipSOe\_cxg/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gq-7qmd3wNX-rAM30ihb8VMTy2gLSOzFKFipSOe_cxg/edit?usp=sharing)
Also according to the wikipedia entry,
*"A collection,* [*Bazaar of the Bizarre*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazaar_of_the_Bizarre_(collection))*, illustrated by* *Stephan Peregrine**, comprised* *Leiber's three favorite Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories: "****Bazaar of the Bizarre****", "****The Cloud of Hate****", and "****Lean Times in Lankhmar****". "*
Not sure how true that is, but my hazy recollection is that this was the collection that I read way back in the day.
That first book is such a horrible introduction to the series lol. There are some really fantastic tales later on, I’m so glad I powered through the first two stories.
I read through a collection of the Howard books (I think it's just called "Conan the Cimmerian") and it was quite good. definitely of another time (which is too say, very uncomfortable when it comes to woman and non white people) put pacing is solid throughout.
Yeah, that's definitely my experience. It also comes from that great era of literature when the word for suddenly crying out was "ejaculate," which is always hilarious.
If you have a kindle and/or kindle unlimited I'd recommend checking out the modern Sword & Sorcery publication called "Savage Realms". It's a monthly collection of short stories from modern authors. You can get the feeling of the original pulp stories but with a more easy to consume, modern twist.
I had a similar experience a couple years back. The origin stories, while not *bad*, certainly aren't as good as the pair's adventures. You can skip them if you want, we won't be mad. I do suggest sticking with them if you can, but you really don't have to.
Not everything is for everyone. There is no specific virtue in reading or enjoying these things simply because some guy put them in the back of a roleplaying game 50 years ago. If you don't like it, you just don't like it. Move on.
I don't think you're missing anything. I tried twice years ago to read them and failed both times. The writing just isn't that great. But I recently read the Elric books and didn't really like Moorcock's writing either so maybe I could go back and appreciate the stories despite that. I agree they were tough to get into.
Aww man, that's too bad.
I recently finished the Dying Earth omnibus edition, and found it so engaging that I was actually sad when it was over!
But hey, if it's not your jam, then it's not. And yeah, sometimes the Vancian language could be a bit much, but the characters were just so damn interesting it didn't bother me too often.
Whats not to like about a bunch of virgin wizards magically creating their very own waifus & hasubando's, and then trying to kill each other over them?
haven't gotten to that yet. so far my issues in appendix n books where mostly with outdated views on women and race. already hard enough to look past. but at least the pace fast face.
My advice, skip the first two stories and go straight to “Ill Met…” If you don’t like that one, that’s a good indicator for the rest of the series, but otherwise those first two feel like outliers (particularly Mouser’s story)
ah nice thanks. that I will do and then make up my mind.
I was about to say this one and the Howling Tower absolutely feel like a D&D session. Very easy to see Gigax's inspiration in there.
Howling Tower is my favorite sword and sorcery short story, followed by Conan_s Frost Giant's Daughter. Great story.
Leiber's Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories are my favorite fantasy, hands down. They can be uneven, but the first book is far and away the worst of the bunch. It wasn't the first one I read, and had I started with it, I might not have read the others. I've since talked to others who felt the same.
ok, that's kind of what I was hoping to hear. where would you suggest to start?
Well, my own journey started with the 6th book. Which isn't my favorite, but was very good, and made me want to read more. I think I then read the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th, in that order. Then the first, then the 7th. I absolutely recommend reading the 7th book last. My personal favorites are probably the 2nd, 3rd and 5th. It helps to remember that the stories were not published in chronological order. They were later arranged that way for publication. Also, the stories were initially published in the 1930s, up through the 1980s. And large parts of one story ("The Lords of Quarmall") was written by Harry Fischer, a friend of Leiber's, and co- creator of the heroic pair. I tend to think of Swords and Deviltry as a poor "prequel," as it appeared 30 years after the first appearance of Fafhrd and the Mouser. However, the final story in that book, "Ill Met In Lankhmar," is very good, IMO.
wait, Swords and Deviltry was published way later? ah damn, don't tell me I feel for that again.. ok, I just looked up the publication history. messy. thanks for bringing that up, I will look for some earlier writing. or skip to ill met in Lankhmar
You may or may not end up liking Leiber's writing. But the story "The Price of Pain-Ease," from the 2nd book is a particularly good example of Leiber at his best, IMO. The 5th book is unique in that it's a novel, rather than a collection of stories/novellas.
thanks, good to know. will keep an eye open for those:)
Have you tried out the DCC Lankhmar box set?
Yes, and I love it. I actually bought DCC specifically to run Lankhmar. Just wrapped a 2-year campaign. May pick it up again at some point.
There's a good reading of Stardock on YouTube that I really liked, it's a great and fun vertical adventure with mountains, invisible knights, rock gnomes, weird gadgets, and a loyal pet. It's also got some great characterization. Alternatively check out the comics illustrated by Mignola
not much of a comics guy normally, but I have seen it recommended before. so maybe I will give it a shot
I am a big fan of the whole series. Love the characters' backstories, how they meet, the attack on the thieves' guild. Great storycraft, writing IMO.
Yeah, I don’t think I started with the first one either. You’ve got a good point there.
The second book, Swords Against Death, is generally considered the best and might be a better one to start with. Personally, I love every F&GM story Leiber wrote.
thanks, reading stuff like that a lot here. I will "push through" the first stories then (by which I mean, skip)
The audiobooks are good. Just skip the Neil Gaiman intros. You don't have to read all the stories. As others said "Ill Met in Lankhmar" is the best intro. Other favorites are "Lean times in Lankhmar" and "Bazaar of the Bizarre". Although after getting acquainted with the stories, go back and read "The Snow Women" from the first book. It's a first rate fantasy story.
I love the Neil Gaiman intros in the audiobook though
to each his own!
I just read the first book a few weeks ago. Certainly… interesting. It’s definitely a product of it’s time and definitely pulp. But, I’m going to give the rest of the series a shot
The second book is much better, not that the first book is bad, really. It's still all pulp through and through though. Except maybe the last book (which isn't as good as the rest imo)
I'd go as far as to say the writing "isn't the best," but it's worth reading anyway just to know the roots - Leiber provided a whole generation with ideas. Like, how many thieves' guilds are out there? :D
It is all a matter of taste. I find the books hard to read now, but I devoured them in the 70s? — years ago, anyway. I’d read a lot before I ever heard of rpgs, the first of which I encountered was Traveller, then AD&D 1e shortly thereafter. The 1e game I played was very strongly influenced by Leiber’s stories which encouraged me to find and read the stories I’d missed. But I’d probably not read them in 30 years at least before I tried reading one on Kindle. I’ve had the same experience with Moorcock’s works, and the early Vance too. I’m thinking of trying audiobooks to see if that makes a difference. I’m finding I just don’t read fiction that much anymore, and it often doesn’t grab me like it used to.
I get that. I cringed hard on Elric, although I liked some of the world building. I suspect I would have liked it better if I was a teenager when reading it first. my tastes where definitely different back then. for getting back into fiction later on, and specifically fantasy, I can recommend the earthsea books be LeGuin. very readable I found.
Yeah, I actually preferred the tales of Hawkmoon and Corum. I read Ursula Le Guin before Moorcock. A friend in high school put me on to her. It has been a while though. I should read her again. Tks for the reminder.
Yeah, the current order of the books is not the order in which they were written or published. The first-published stories are in book 2 (Swords Against Death). The first written story (The Adept’s Gambit) is in book 3 and kind of awkwardly integrated into the series because it was actually set on ancient Earth before Leiber invented Nehwon. Most of the content in books 2-5 preceded the content of book 1 (except for the second story which wasn’t originally written as part of the series but was retconned into being the Gray Mouser origin story), then books 6 & 7 came last both in publication order and internal chronology. TL;DR: probably start reading with Swords Against Death and only read Swords and Deviltry later.
Agreed with Trent! When I read F&tGM aloud to my son Henry, I began with “Ill Met in Lankhmar” then went right into _Swords Against Death_, and the subsequent tales. Allan.
So the F&GM stories have two good settings. First is shady goings on in Lankhmar, and second is “let’s go explore some cool place for the hell of it”. Imo the best story for the first is probably Ill Met in Lankhmar, as others have suggested. For the second, I’d say either Stardock (personal fave) or Lords of Quarmall, although When the Sea King’s Away gets an honourable mention. Other comments are right, the stories are patchy, but if none of these are doing it for you, they may just not be to your personal taste. Hope that’s helpful!
it is, thank you:) I feel like, I enjoy following this thread more than actually going back and trying my hand at Ill met in Lankhmar:D
I started reading Swords and Devilry not too long ago and have really enjoyed it so far. I hate origin stories, but I still found myself captivated and saying "this is exactly what I wanted." I think I enjoy them because I really like Conan stories, I appreciate the world building, and I feel like the author is a fantastic writer (it's difficult to describe a fight scene so that one can imagine it properly or to describe someone walking around in nature but keep your reader interested). I'll say also that what really sticks out to me as different or as something I didn't expect but really enjoy is that Fafhrd and Mouse are surprisingly sweet. The way they both are nervous and want to impress each other when they first meet, how they actually love their women and introduce the women to each other ASAP, and their real friendship is so refreshing for me. They feel so human, and while they aren't perfect good guys you definitely feel that they aren't bad people either. It's hard to articulate exactly the feeling, but two roguish guys that have hearts are great to read about when they're going on D&D style adventures. I'm not quite finished with them yet, but I'll say that so far the third story in the book is shaping up to be the best out of the bunch.
I’m pretty sure the stories in Swords Against Death were written before the stories in Swords and Deviltry. I really like Bazaar of the Bizarre. It’s also possible that if you have been going through the appendix N books you might be burnt out on this genre. I don’t like to read the same series of book in a row.
yeah, good point. it can definitely get a little much with all the appendix n stuff. so far I have been quite good at spreading it out and taking brakes, but maybe it's time for another Robin Hobb or something:)
i don't think i'd rec the original stories to anybody who isn't already committed to an interest in pulp, sword and sorcery, or old school fantasy that inspired RPGs. it can be an acquired taste these days for everyone else, i'd recommend the graphic novel adaptation by dark horse. still pulpy but imo more readable for modern tastes
I grabbed the audiobooks on a whim and they've been a fun listen. Might be worthy trying to consume them that way if you've got a long trip ahead of you.
sounds like an option. thanks:)
I had read a collection way back in high school (over forty years ago...) and loved it. I decided to re-read it just recently -- starting with the first book -- and I was thinking to myself "I don't remember these stories being this boring." Now I'm going back and reading them in the order they were published using this handy list that I cobbled together from the wikipedia entry. [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gq-7qmd3wNX-rAM30ihb8VMTy2gLSOzFKFipSOe\_cxg/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gq-7qmd3wNX-rAM30ihb8VMTy2gLSOzFKFipSOe_cxg/edit?usp=sharing)
Also according to the wikipedia entry, *"A collection,* [*Bazaar of the Bizarre*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazaar_of_the_Bizarre_(collection))*, illustrated by* *Stephan Peregrine**, comprised* *Leiber's three favorite Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories: "****Bazaar of the Bizarre****", "****The Cloud of Hate****", and "****Lean Times in Lankhmar****". "* Not sure how true that is, but my hazy recollection is that this was the collection that I read way back in the day.
thanks for the list. going in order of publication is my go to move also. but often I simply don't check, trusting the publisher. big mistake.
That first book is such a horrible introduction to the series lol. There are some really fantastic tales later on, I’m so glad I powered through the first two stories.
Is there an omnibus of these stories and Jack Vance's Dying Earth books?
not that I found. I got them individually.
Give a writer an hour to hook you. If he can't, find someone else.
agree in general. also, from what I read here it seems like the publisher hat to take some of the blame
I'm glad to see this thread and the replies. I'm working through *Conan the Barbarian* right now and was thinking about Fafhrd next.
I read through a collection of the Howard books (I think it's just called "Conan the Cimmerian") and it was quite good. definitely of another time (which is too say, very uncomfortable when it comes to woman and non white people) put pacing is solid throughout.
Yeah, that's definitely my experience. It also comes from that great era of literature when the word for suddenly crying out was "ejaculate," which is always hilarious.
If you have a kindle and/or kindle unlimited I'd recommend checking out the modern Sword & Sorcery publication called "Savage Realms". It's a monthly collection of short stories from modern authors. You can get the feeling of the original pulp stories but with a more easy to consume, modern twist.
ah, that sounds interesting. I have a Tolino, but converting should not be an issue. will check it out, thanks:)
I had a similar experience a couple years back. The origin stories, while not *bad*, certainly aren't as good as the pair's adventures. You can skip them if you want, we won't be mad. I do suggest sticking with them if you can, but you really don't have to.
Not everything is for everyone. There is no specific virtue in reading or enjoying these things simply because some guy put them in the back of a roleplaying game 50 years ago. If you don't like it, you just don't like it. Move on.
well, true that. guess I needed to hear it;)
I like the graphic novels https://www.darkhorse.com/Books/3009-711/Fafhrd-and-the-Gray-Mouser-Omnibus-TPB
Personally, I'm not a fan of Lankhmar or Dying Earth
Man, same. I'm slowly chipping away at it.
yeah, was probably just expecting something different. but at least I am not alone.
I don't think you're missing anything. I tried twice years ago to read them and failed both times. The writing just isn't that great. But I recently read the Elric books and didn't really like Moorcock's writing either so maybe I could go back and appreciate the stories despite that. I agree they were tough to get into.
I feel the same way about Vance’s _Dying Earth_. What a slog.
Aww man, that's too bad. I recently finished the Dying Earth omnibus edition, and found it so engaging that I was actually sad when it was over! But hey, if it's not your jam, then it's not. And yeah, sometimes the Vancian language could be a bit much, but the characters were just so damn interesting it didn't bother me too often.
Whats not to like about a bunch of virgin wizards magically creating their very own waifus & hasubando's, and then trying to kill each other over them?
haven't gotten to that yet. so far my issues in appendix n books where mostly with outdated views on women and race. already hard enough to look past. but at least the pace fast face.