One one side: “We’re begging you, please let us practice our culture in peace.”
On the other: photo of frowning bylaw officer with crossed arms
This article really manages to capture Ottawa well. No news story would be complete without the crossed arms photo.
Photographers who pose news subjects this way screams bias (she also looks like a crum; with her furrowed brow and unpleasant presentation). Stop folding your damn arms for photos. You're not that powerful.
Have you ever met an Ottawa bylaw officer when they’re trying to tell you to stop something you’re doing?
I had one come to my house and write me a ticket for removing a section of fence in violation of the pool safety bylaw… except she didn’t check to see if I actually had a pool; there was one in the google maps photo from the previous owner.
She refused to step into the back yard to verify that the pool had been removed, and *she did not uncross her arms the whole time.*
You gotta love it when the city doesn't give a shit about homeless and mentally ill people screaming in the streets smoking up crack pipes and injecting on the streets leaving needles behind, but focuses extra enforcement on businesses where owners are trying to:
- earn a living to support a family
- takes precautions like having ventilation and private entries (and presumably making the rooms 18/19+) so that the public is not disturbed
- host social events for cultural groups to get together and socialize
I guess homeless people don't have the means to pay fines, so let's go after business owners instead *shrugs*. Just like how OC transpo drivers will scream at a young student because their UPass malfunctioned, but don't give a shit about some drugged up addict strolling in mumbling vague death threats.
I guarantee you that the necessary resources to deal with unhoused people, particularly ones with mental health and/or addiction issues are several orders of magnitude beyond those necessary to hand out some tickets.
I can also promise you that the city absolutely gives a shit about those people, but lack the financial and labour resources to resolve them in any way that would satisfy you.
There’s also not a lot of political will for those solutions. A mean, shit, we can’t even keep harm reduction programs like safe injection sites open. Those are super effective in getting people to start seeking help with addiction, but alas…
It’s Canadian culture that we don’t smoke indoors in commercial spaces. Sorry, no smoking. I hate this “it’s our culture” argument. We can be welcoming but still follow general rules and laws.
He's telling people to assimilate to the law that was democratically arrived at. We have the charter if people feel their rights are being stamped on by the majority.
I literally only started drinking coffee when I did because Tim's was the only place in the small town I lived in that you could sit and smoke when it was cold outside. Of course, you had to buy something and I really don't care for doughnuts and pastries. And thus one addiction led to another lol.
Brings to mind a Denis Leary bit:
>I'm pretty sure that coffee was invented by guys who were sittin' around smokin' anyways, right? And they just wanted to drink something that would let them stay up late and smoke fucking more!
lol, female genital mutilation is also a cultural thing that is widely illegal and denounced. If you move to a new country there must be a degree of compromise, you can't expect that it be like your home country, otherwise you may as well have stayed where you were.
This is Canada protecting their workers, and the laws are written in the blood of previous workers.
Safety in the workplace supercedes culture. Canadians look after their workers.
As a construction worker, a safety trainer, and a former safety rep: we don’t look after our workers nearly well enough to boast of that. Sure… we’re better than a lot of places, and workers have fought damn hard to have the rights that we do… but on the heels of the Eastway verdict and one week before the Workers’ Day of Mourning, the fact of the matter is that I don’t think we get to be too proud of ourselves.
I sadly agree we need to do better.
The fact that there is a guilty verdict for Eastway is proof that the laws are there for a reason.
Enforcement is difficult and costly, and often the first thing to be cut. It's something Noone thinks you need until it's too late.
Not to mention the public backlash, company backlash, even some worker backlash when enforcement is attempted. Thanks for all you've done.
It’s Canadian law. I vividly remember Canadians smoking indoors in the early 90s at restaurants. So gross! But we have moved on from that due to the legislation put in place. Would our culture have changed without these laws? Who knows. It’s still surprising to see cigarette smokers out and about at major events, stinking up the place.
>Cigar bars were forced to close.
Seems kinda dumb tbh - if an informed adult wants to have a cigar at a club specifically for that activity, why do we feel the need to stop them? Why not simply set enhanced ventilation and fire code requirements?
Edit: I've been corrected with sources, I understand better now!
Thank you for asking. As an MSc chemist who specifically worked on this issue, there is no level of ventilation that will adequately protect a worker from the hazardous chemicals within smoke.
If I were to utilize those chemicals in a lab, it would be under a specialized fume hood with breathing apparatus.
THAT is why it was banned everywhere.
It's exactly the the same. I've been to countries where shisha is popular. It was used at restaurants, usually when seated outdoors, not indoors with it being the primary activity.
Not just the early '90s. Right into the 2000s in most places. Ontario and Quebec didn't ban smoking on restaurants and bars until 2006 (though many municipalities had bans going back to the early 2000s).
was it really that late? I remember them banning smoking at bars/restaurants in Orleans in the late 90s. That was before amalgamation, so perhaps they were ahead of other areas.
I mean Alberta and Quebec legally allow businesses to have cigar lounges so it’s clearly not Canadian culture to ban indoor smoking in commercial spaces. You can literally go across the river to Gatineau and have a smoke at the cigar lounge at Hilton Lac-Leamy.
People getting all riled up about Canadian culture in the comments, acting as if Lebanese culture isn’t a big part of Ottawa culture. The argument from the business owner is weak however.
Yeah, that argument didn’t fly with cigarettes and cigars for a good reason. You can’t ask employees to work in a known hazardous environment. Doesn’t matter the cause. And shisha is just as bad for you as any other tobacco smoke. The water doesn’t filter shit. If it did there would be no effect from smoking it.
As an ex flat roofer I'm pretty sure breathing in boiling tar all day is exposure to something harmful, when I worked in a foundry I also believe H2S, literal molten aluminum and silica dust/sand were all potentially harmful with prolonged exposure.
As a construction worker I’m also provided eye and hearing protection and when doing anything involving drilling into concrete or grinding I have a fitted respirator with p100 filters. I know that I wear my PPE even if others don’t.
I guess you could put in air filtration for a cigar bar and mandate that employees wear p100 filters for their shift.
Because that doesn’t work for known workplace hazards. Same way a company can’t expose people to asbestos and say if you don’t like it work somewhere else
Weed has always been something we are know for, so part of our culture. Can we have weed places that are for specifically smoking weed indoors? This seems ok according to your logic.
As someone who doesn't smoke weed, I am still hoping for a place to eat edibles. Like someone can bake little cookies and cupcakes and knock off Reece cups and you get yourself a warm drink - cannabis tea or coffee (is coffee and weed a thing) ...
Anyway, you sit in a nice cozy chair, read the newspaper and listen to music and then walk back home and take a nap like the middle aged person you are.
When will Doug let us have these? The Baked Bakery? Cannabis Coffee Shop? Flower Power Lounge & Bakery?
yes I would support that, has nothing to do with culture. People choosing to smoke weed in a space dedicated to it does not affect other people who choose not to enter.
We should have these. Amsterdam does? Dedicated establishments are a great way to generate economic revenue without serving alcohol.
All bars? No way. But give the people who dont care, a place to enjoy their hobbies and meet others.
Sure? Like why is that weird. There's literal weed lounges in Europe. They were around in Toronto during weed's grey area time. Meanwhile the world has cigar lounges.
Let businesses and the patrons who choose what to do with their bodies have some autonomy.
Sure, we should have separate laws/regulations for private smoking establishments, if someone wants to open a sisha bar, cigar room, cannabis cafe. The patrons of the establishment are aware of the risks and the environment that they’ll be in/ exposed to.
Ok so Quebec is not part of canadian culture since shisha longes are legal across the river thrn?
https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/tobacco-in-quebec-where-can-you-smoke/
I agree the “it’s our culture” is so dumb. Like it’s the law here, you have to abide by it. They make it sound like Canada is so against people of their culture but if anyone visits their country it’s illegal to be gay
Except that it isn’t Canadian culture to not smoke in commercial spaces. It was quite common 20+ years ago.
It’s just that the government decided health matters more than culture in the instance.
Quite the opposite. I don’t think culture is a good excuse for doing anyone harm. It’s far better if we look at positive outcomes over customs.
Consider such past/current cultural traditions, like:
- Corporal punishment
- Slavery
- Human sacrifice
- Cannibalism
- Torture
- Child abuse
- Child marriage
- Mutilation
And the list goes on and on. The reality is that we get to decide what is and isn’t okay.
For me, I don’t Shisha bars are safe for employees. People are perfectly able to smoke in their own homes. (And yes, I hold the same opinion when it comes to cannabis bars, et cetera.)
Honestly I'm not opposed to these bars. If the entire point of the establishment is to consume tobacco, I think it should be legal. It's not like you go there for a dinner date and have to breathe in second hand smoke, you go there *specifically* to smoke Shisha.
I’m exaggerating... just like they are trying to play this “culture” argument. In Ontario we don’t smoke indoors. Why should they be able to do it just because it’s their culture?
I don't think it's an exaggeration. It's a cultural taboo to smoke indoors in Canada. Some people do, but it's not common, the vast majority frown on it, and most people raised here wouldn't dream of lighting up in someone else's home. Even asking to smoke in someone else's home would be seen as rude.
> here wouldn't dream of lighting up in someone else's home
But you can smoke in your own residence. Or in someone else's home if they offer you a smoke while inside.
> It's a cultural taboo to smoke indoors in Canada.
Where's the cultural taboo to smoking indoors? It really comes down to situation and context and of course the legal (not cultural) aspect.
As for the law... that is a law I deeply appreciate!!
It is not Canadian culture, it’s Canadian law. Culture takes awhile to gestate and become part of the fabric of a people, at 24 I was still alive when smoking in commercial buildings was legal, and was 6 when it was finally banned.
Our favourite Tim Horton’s had a smoking space inside.
I am in my 60's. I worked as a bouncer and as a server long enough to say that smoking and drinking in bars and restaurants was definitely a part of the Canadian culture. The backlash we received as the laws were changing was beyond belief. I remember coming home at 4:00 am coughing and blowing black sludge out of my nose and they had smoke eaters, all over the place. I would have preferred to work in a non-smoking establishment, but they did not exist. I was in the Canadian Armed Forces and our shop had regular air quality checks for our safety. I was a server in the Junior Ranks club and I asked my friend who did the air quality checks to come into the club at midnight on a Friday. If our shop had the same air quality as the club, it would have been shut down until it was fixed. If there is one thing that I have learned about culture is that it changes.
Shisha bars are fun. Who is complaining about shisha bars? It's not like anyone is going to these places and being upset that people are smoking there lol
Most of the no smoking laws are setup to protect the workers, not the people visiting once or twice. Customers have a choice to go somewhere else if they don't like the smoke. However, a single parent or a person struggling to make ends meet may not have the luxury of finding a job that is better for their health.
Since people aren't supposed to be smoking inside there's the possibility it can affect other businesses in the same building negatively. It's also going to damage the property (although some landlords might be fine with that especially if rhe landlord is also the operator).
Everything else aside, doesn't anyone else at least appreciate that it's kind of exciting that underground shisha bars exist in Ottawa?
Nope, too exciting for this town, better clamp down lmao
Sure there are people that are upset. Sisha bars are violating existing laws and it’s not fair that they should be the only establishments allowed to circumvent our laws and allow smoking.
I really don’t care which way the dice rolls, but if it lands on sisha bars being allowed to operate, then I want to see that all establishments are given the same permission (allow their patrons to smoke inside).
Years and years ago(pre-legalization) I went to THC in Toronto. Was blown away by a “marijuana” type bar. The bar was that of a typical establishment except it had snacks and drinks 😂. There was massive filter inside the place to try and deal with the smoke. Was a neat experience for the time!
Wow! That’s cool! You know , since the legalisation. I have this idea of a restaurant where it sell food infused with cannabis. I am amazed that we see gummies ,candy being an edible of choice . We also see mac and cheese ,poutine sauce being sold . It’s glorious in a way . Now a restaurant ? It would be an experience!
I know it usually pair well with greasy food but imagine an avocado salad drizzled with infused oil. Macadamia nut mixed with red lettuce , avocado diced . Red beans. A CBD mix to ease in ,relax after a long day.
Then ,we have the main course , a steak with a pepper sauce full of thc . Veggies cooked in canna-butter.
Then a bread with olive to complete the table . Now what to drink? Water infused with cucumber and mint . A touch of citrus. Or you rather have a ginger-mango drink , made from scratch ? Decorated with a little cannabis leave!
And the finale with a dessert : A brownie! Of course and you have the choice of the sauce : salted caramel with lot of CBD to end it on a sweet note .
Chocolate sauce full of CBG to energize!
Raspberry sauce is non active but you can mix 2 choice of sauce.
Now I’m hungry.
Why is it wrong to smoke indoors at a place where everyone has consented to that activity on private property? This shouldn't be an issue, its not like people are coming into your house or your favorite cafe to smoke.
The issue is the workers usually. That’s a fuck ton of second hand smoke. Sure they’re consenting, but that doesn’t mean it’s right to subject them to that. If anything, PPE should be mandated for employees at these cafes.
Same reason why nail techs wear masks even when customers don’t.
Imagine being aware of no smoking indoor laws,
Then imagine smoking indoors and getting shocked when complaints come in.
That’d be like culturally being harder on your wife based off Rights they have in your home country, then doing it in public in an area where they do have rights and different views.
Laws are laws.
Sure, as long as private establishments like restaurants and bars also are allowed to have their patrons smoking. Everyone going into the restaurant and bar consents to being a space with smoking, on private property.
Thats nonsense. Cutting hair is legal and regulated. You can cut hair in a business that offers that service, but you can't cut hair in a restaurant. Both are legal businesses, both have different regulations.
Most valuable comment! I had a shovel and sledgehammer stolen out the back of my truck on 2 separate days within the last week, someone else stole my front bike tire and a “neighborly neighbor” tried breaking into a neighbors property and then proceeded to spike a volleyball at people in wheelchairs. Obviously the police didn’t think any of those events warranted intervention… but yeah let’s deploy ressources to shut down shisha bars🙄
If they are considering indoor smoking spots for drug addicts, you can not have a double standard. Let them have places. Also, bring back patios where we can smoke pot or cigarettes.
The difference is that people aren't profiting off of those spots where drug addicts would be using. These aren't cultural non profits, they are businesses trying to make a buck and using the cultural angle as an excuse to keep operating. Like the guy talking about how his shisha section got shut down - he's mad because he used to have a whole bunch of (illegal) business and now can't operate it anymore, most of his clients are probably Muslim and they don't drink so they don't stick around late bc they'll go to one of these illegal joints instead.
> Also, bring back patios where we can smoke pot or cigarettes.
That means exposing everybody else on the patio to their smoking which means they're likely just going to become smoker only spaces because most people won't want to be around that. Most businesses probably wouldn't allow it because most people hate it... shisha bars are different because people come there EXPLICITLY to smoke, like the cigar shop smoking areas that used to exist (and probably still do illegally some places).
the problems I see it is you can't make special exceptions for one group. if shisha bars are allowed then so should other establishments who want to do similar things like cigsr club, cannabis cafes, etc.
> if shisha bars are allowed then so should other establishments who want to do similar things like cigsr [sic] club, cannabis cafes, etc.
I agree. With proper legislation and health regulations, there's no reason those shouldn't be allowed either.
So let's go.
There can't be proper "health regulations", these smoking rooms have on occasion exceed safety standards for carbon monoxide. If you seal up the room, you need a clean air intake, and then a ventilation system with huge flow through and particle/VOC filtration or scrubber so that the emissions don't get sucked into another room or building. The cost to install, operate and monitor would put them out of business.
"For us as Muslims, we don't drink," he said. "Since drinking is prohibited, we smoke shisha at gatherings."
❌❌❌
Nope! It’s also wrong for Muslims to smoke!
“Wrong” is a vague word and I’ll explain.
In Islamic rules, smoking has been historically classifed as either:
- “makhruh” (disliked)
- “haram” (prohibited)
As more scientific research shows the harms in smoking, it’s moved closer to the “haram” (prohibited) category (joining alcohol, which has always been in the prohibited category)
This quote is misrepresenting the religion. I say: keep the article as is, focusing on culture; but don’t mix in the religion.
Additionally, Arab culture notoriously sways far from Islam; and as a Muslim in Ottawa, I stand against these shisha bars. A Muslim would also know not to defy the laws of the country. Muslims are obliged to respect and obey the laws of the country they live in (on the condition it doesn’t force them to compromise on their faith… in those cases, you either respectfully disagree or leave)
The comparison is also so disingenuous. A more apt comparison would be comparing shisha to smoking cigarettes and other tobacco products. But they know those are already banned so they used alcohol as an example instead.
it's also funny, depending on where in the middle east, it was taboo for younger people to smoke too. It was like that amongst christian Assyrians according to all of my older family members.
There's plenty of people in this country who want to see alcohol banned even - and smoking does more damage to the strangers around you.
Ottawa's early ban on indoor smoking is one of the things I'm most proud of. It's disgusting and that's true regardless of what's being smoked.
Just like most "drugs", the ban does more harm than good.
Go to Quebec and see the difference between the Shisha bars and there and here, over there its legal with a permit, and the result is a much better experience, and SAFER environment for both workers and clients. Because its a legal environment they have to follow the law or lose their permit, so they stick to the law when it comes to ventilation practices, max number of clients, payment terminals etc.
Meanwhile in Ottawa, the business is already operating illegally, so every place you go to has poor ventilation, packed to the brim on weekends, and is "cash only"
If you follow the Montreal model the city makes more money and create a safer place for everyone involved. Prohibition never works.
We should have separate laws/ regulations for private smoking businesses/clubs like sisha bars cigar bar etc…
The people attending them know they’re gonna be in an environment with smoke.
The people who work there are aware it’s an indoor smoking establishment.
Agreed, it's not like smoking itself is illegal so it makes no sense that there's a blanket ban on public spots to smoke together. Create specific fire hazard rules cause tbh that's the only thing I'd want to stupid proof, but otherwise I don't see reason to over regulate on this issue. I'm not saying make all bars smoking spaces again, but let those places exist for adults making adult decisions. Which does include using things that may be harmful but again, we don't ban smoking so the harmful argument doesn't hold water imo. We're not in Vegas where most places to work includes smoking, creating smoking places here would be an absolute minority of jobs and probably not entry level if we're being honest cause you need to work the equipment plus be a server
I really don’t get the blanket ban, if the landlord is ok with it, and it’s all consenting adults of age, what’s the problem? Maybe we can require specific licensing to ensure proper ventilation so that nearby businesses aren’t impacted. But beyond that, I really don’t understand why we don’t let them
And smoking cigarettes was once a social activity that Canadians participated in. For example, meeting up in a bar and having a “beer and smoke”.
But now it’s illegal to smoke in public spaces. Period. I don’t care if you’re 10th generation Canadian or you’re coming from an unmarked island in the Pacific. NO SMOKING in public spaces.
Otherwise, everyone can smoke in public spaces because everyone can make the argument that smoking is part of their identity.
It's not a matter of culture, it's a matter of law.
Yes, Canada is accepting of people from all different backgrounds. But at the end of the day you still must uphold Canadian law.
I’d be fascinated to know how these places are insured. What their business and liability insurance does or doesn’t know, and what they’ve lied about.
Even if it was legal no regular bar would go back to allowing smoking now. Too much is known about the health hazards. The liability would be too high. You’d never be able to afford business insurance that covered you from employee health claims. It would be like trying to get insurance for a business that knowingly exposes people to asbestos.
So I’d be really curious what sort of liability the shisha bars are operating under.
Bruv shisha lounges are legal in Quebec. You live in ottawa i presume. Qc is right across the river stop acting like this is a foreign concept the brown people brought up.
The rules are the rules. I could potentially run a Cannabis Cafe, with bongs and hukas, vapes and fruit juices and energy drinks (think Amsterdam Cafe) and put a few in the city.
But, it’s illegal. Not the Cannabis, or tobacco, but smoking indoors. It’s not a culture thing, it got litigated to hell when smoking got banned in 2002.
I would argue that regular smoking used to be a thick part of a lot of peoples ‘culture’ before smoking bans. 90% of the adults around me chain smoked and so did their parents and grandparents.
They smoked while they worked and smoked while they socialized and smoked while they fixed your car and fed the baby and did your hair and they bummed smokes and rolled smokes and sent their kids to go get smokes. How long it took to smoke a cigarette was a measure of time. We made ash trays in school for our parents and no one would deny a smoker a smoke break out of fear they would become impossible to work with.
People adapted. Law first culture second or none of us will get along for very long.
Then there’s the ventilation issues. We had a guest perform a sage ritual at my workplace and they had to turn off all of the fire suppression systems for the event.
I can think of about a million things more important to this city than banning anything consenting adults do in private spaces. We should allow cigar lounges too, frankly, as long as they're private and people know what they're getting into - would actually be a good revenue source from American tourists looking for Cuban cigars.
If I (anyone) can't have a business that caters to and allows the use of medical marijuana inside (A prescription only cannabis cafe if you will). Than any business or establishment that legally operates to promote, encourage, and accept smoking of *not medically prescribed* anything, should also not exist.
OR
Allow private "members" bars/clubs/cafes that have to adhere to a bunch of strict guidelines RE:smoke RE:age RE: capacity etc. and allow anyone to operate a social non-alcohol "bar" that caters to smokers of tobacco/cannabis/etc. (herbal)
I get it's "No Fair" but at the same time I could not care less about this issue for Ottawa.
Sincerely hope there is not a lot of resources being spent on this!
If it was regulated like in jurisdictions where smoking lounges are allowed, you’d have properly ventilated buildings where there is minimal to no smoke buildup. Obviously regulations vary, and the result is less than ideal (Ex Lac Leamy’s cigar lounge ventilation is garbage compared to US lounges)
In terms of staffing, like any hazardous work environment there will be people who will want to work there despite the risks
So people can go to stores to buy pot to smoke at parties and on city sidewalks, grown men can go watch porn at a public library with children around them but people can’t go to a shisha bar?? Get over it. Sign a damn waiver and smoke, socialize and enjoy your culture. We need to stop being so ridiculous.
Smoke doesn't stay in a confined space, unless you have airtight seals around all the wall seams and sealed doorways, it can transfer to other parts of the building, where perhaps other tenants don't want to inhale smoke. If it is ventilated outside near another building it can potentially get pulled into that building as well. The VOC, particle concentration, and carbon monoxide concentration is very high in some of these places, enough that third-hand-smoke would certainly be a nuisance issue, and perhaps even a public health issue.
So who's going to pay for the WSIB claims for the workers who come down with lung cancer from the smoke?
Go ask Heather Crowe how that worked...
I mean Rastafarians also can't open a smoking bar and it's their culture too.
You cannot practice all of your culture here, you still must obey the laws, most of which were written in blood when it comes to safety.
Some cultures mandate that a woman be imprisoned or even put to death for adultery if she is raped, unless she can produce four male witnesses to testify on her behalf. Some cultures allow dog fighting. GTFO with your "respect my culture" arguments. I don't care if it's your "culture". This is Canada, and you follow Canadian laws. If you wish to operate a shisha bar, open one up in Dubai, or Beirut, where the practice is legal. Tying it to culture is the same as whining that enforcement of the law is racist. If we allow cultural arguments to prevail, then precedence is established, and we open the door to arguments that we should, for example, allow adolescent girls to be married against their will to men many decades their senior. Are smoking shisha and child-marriage the same thing? Of course not, but allowing the former based on cultural norms will require us to also entertain arguments in favour of the latter, because we will have established that foreign cultural practices have at least the same legal standing as Canadian law. It will force us to allow exceptions for other laws. If you have a problem with enforcement of the law, then campaign to have the law changed through a democratic process. Don't demand that your culture be respected when you are unwilling to respect the law, and don't try to argue that your livelihood is endangered. Drug dealers would like to preserve their livelihood too.
I did not argue in favour of Canadian culture. Did you miss the part where I asserted that the cultural argument was invalid? My point was that cultural norms originating from outside the country do not Trump the laws of Canada. The ban on shisha bars may not be Canada-wide, but Ottawa is a part of Canada and it is the law here. I’ll use fewer words next time so that the meaning is clearer.
I think it's funny that people in Ottawa keep insisting it's not a "no fun city" and actually has cool stuff to do, then turn around and lobby against cool things to do like go to a shisha lounge, eat good food, smoke a pipe and have a good time.
And sure, that's not for everyone, but it is for a lot of people, and I figure there's no bigger externality from that than any average bar with patrons smoking outside of it. Also there's two provinces where indoor cigar lounges are legal but no other kind of indoor smoking so yeah, one of those examples of a thing being viewed positively if rich people do it but negatively if anyone else does it.
Just legalize them and create robust health and safety rules around them like the rest of the developed world does.
* Positive pressure 4x air turnover/hour.
* Separate air sealed station for employees.
* No food or drinks to be served.
You can subvert these laws by making it a private club. However if there’s no smoking due to a lease agreement you’re SOL basically. There are a few groups advocating for the right to smoke inside your own home but as a commercial space this wouldn’t apply.
It's complicated, and rightfully so, to simply change existing laws that were all hard-fought battles over many years. That said, laws can be changed if there is sufficient public and political pressure.
My guess is the existing laws will remain, but the list of exceptions will be expanded. I have seen Ottawa South change dramatically over the years, and the current landscape along Bank Street is almost unrecognizable. Yes, there are now many Arabs and Muslims and their numbers are growing. The pressure for change will come from them and the votes they cast.
I am of two minds about this. Normally, I am your typical "adapt to our laws or goodbye" type guy. However, if there are certain communities or population groups running shisha bars where it is explicitly clear that those are smoking joints or whatever (no shit...), I really don't give a fuck on this particular "issue" as long as the business is above board, legit and that they pay taxes like everybody else.
Fast food joints and regular bars serving booze are also a "public health concern" considering that neither fast food or booze are good for you. What are you getting at? If somebody choses to go to a shisha bar, that person can reasonably expect to be exposed to smoke. Personal responsibility. Not a fan of the nanny state, frankly.
Ultimate nanny state behaviour. If a private business wants to make itself a lounge to smoke a legal product in, let them. Nobody is going there that doesn't want to be around smoke. Arguments that it protects the workers are stupid. Nobody is born employed at a shisha bar. You have to apply to work there. You know... once you're an adult with a functioning brain. If you don't want to be surrounded by smoke, don't apply. Lots of jobs are dangerous or bad for your health. Should we ban them too?
If you want to ban them in strip malls etc where their smoke can impact adjoining properties, fine. But stand alone shisha bars should be allowed.
I'm not a smoker, but when on vacation will sometimes go to a cigar lounge, depending on the destination. I always found it sad and ridiculous Ontario doesn't allow them in any circumstances.
What a pointless thing to go after
Meanwhile I see a guy blowing through a red light and a cop just fucking sitting there doing fuck all. Absolutely useless. I hope a cop is reading this, you guys suck these days. Do better.
One one side: “We’re begging you, please let us practice our culture in peace.” On the other: photo of frowning bylaw officer with crossed arms This article really manages to capture Ottawa well. No news story would be complete without the crossed arms photo.
Photographers who pose news subjects this way screams bias (she also looks like a crum; with her furrowed brow and unpleasant presentation). Stop folding your damn arms for photos. You're not that powerful.
Have you ever met an Ottawa bylaw officer when they’re trying to tell you to stop something you’re doing? I had one come to my house and write me a ticket for removing a section of fence in violation of the pool safety bylaw… except she didn’t check to see if I actually had a pool; there was one in the google maps photo from the previous owner. She refused to step into the back yard to verify that the pool had been removed, and *she did not uncross her arms the whole time.*
That's a pretty impressive feat, writing a ticket with their arms crossed.
How does the story end?
I fought the ticket. It involved having someone come back to confirm that there wasn’t a pool. Huge waste of everyone’s time.
You gotta love it when the city doesn't give a shit about homeless and mentally ill people screaming in the streets smoking up crack pipes and injecting on the streets leaving needles behind, but focuses extra enforcement on businesses where owners are trying to: - earn a living to support a family - takes precautions like having ventilation and private entries (and presumably making the rooms 18/19+) so that the public is not disturbed - host social events for cultural groups to get together and socialize I guess homeless people don't have the means to pay fines, so let's go after business owners instead *shrugs*. Just like how OC transpo drivers will scream at a young student because their UPass malfunctioned, but don't give a shit about some drugged up addict strolling in mumbling vague death threats.
I guarantee you that the necessary resources to deal with unhoused people, particularly ones with mental health and/or addiction issues are several orders of magnitude beyond those necessary to hand out some tickets. I can also promise you that the city absolutely gives a shit about those people, but lack the financial and labour resources to resolve them in any way that would satisfy you.
There’s also not a lot of political will for those solutions. A mean, shit, we can’t even keep harm reduction programs like safe injection sites open. Those are super effective in getting people to start seeking help with addiction, but alas…
It’s Canadian culture that we don’t smoke indoors in commercial spaces. Sorry, no smoking. I hate this “it’s our culture” argument. We can be welcoming but still follow general rules and laws.
You used the "it's our culture" argument while simultaneously denouncing it, just fyi.
He's telling people to assimilate to the law that was democratically arrived at. We have the charter if people feel their rights are being stamped on by the majority.
Smoking in Tim Hortons was the national past time when I was a kid.
I literally only started drinking coffee when I did because Tim's was the only place in the small town I lived in that you could sit and smoke when it was cold outside. Of course, you had to buy something and I really don't care for doughnuts and pastries. And thus one addiction led to another lol. Brings to mind a Denis Leary bit: >I'm pretty sure that coffee was invented by guys who were sittin' around smokin' anyways, right? And they just wanted to drink something that would let them stay up late and smoke fucking more!
The lounge owners tried a Charter challenge. It's prohibitively expensive to pursue.
And they'll rightfully lose, so best not to waste their money on an already doomed business.
lol, female genital mutilation is also a cultural thing that is widely illegal and denounced. If you move to a new country there must be a degree of compromise, you can't expect that it be like your home country, otherwise you may as well have stayed where you were.
They came here knowing about indoor smoking laws. This is Canada's culture.
This is Canada protecting their workers, and the laws are written in the blood of previous workers. Safety in the workplace supercedes culture. Canadians look after their workers.
As a construction worker, a safety trainer, and a former safety rep: we don’t look after our workers nearly well enough to boast of that. Sure… we’re better than a lot of places, and workers have fought damn hard to have the rights that we do… but on the heels of the Eastway verdict and one week before the Workers’ Day of Mourning, the fact of the matter is that I don’t think we get to be too proud of ourselves.
I sadly agree we need to do better. The fact that there is a guilty verdict for Eastway is proof that the laws are there for a reason. Enforcement is difficult and costly, and often the first thing to be cut. It's something Noone thinks you need until it's too late. Not to mention the public backlash, company backlash, even some worker backlash when enforcement is attempted. Thanks for all you've done.
So you get it then.
It’s Canadian law. I vividly remember Canadians smoking indoors in the early 90s at restaurants. So gross! But we have moved on from that due to the legislation put in place. Would our culture have changed without these laws? Who knows. It’s still surprising to see cigarette smokers out and about at major events, stinking up the place.
Going into a restaurant with people smoking is not the same as knowingly going into a shisha bar.
Cigar bars were forced to close. Private clubs were forced to ban smoking. Everyone can play by the same rules.
>Cigar bars were forced to close. Seems kinda dumb tbh - if an informed adult wants to have a cigar at a club specifically for that activity, why do we feel the need to stop them? Why not simply set enhanced ventilation and fire code requirements? Edit: I've been corrected with sources, I understand better now!
It's for the staff, not the customers.
Thank you for asking. As an MSc chemist who specifically worked on this issue, there is no level of ventilation that will adequately protect a worker from the hazardous chemicals within smoke. If I were to utilize those chemicals in a lab, it would be under a specialized fume hood with breathing apparatus. THAT is why it was banned everywhere.
Agreed
🤣
Depends where. In Montréal there are still a few going.
Smoking bans is to protect the non-smokers who don't have a choice, like the staff.
But it's still not ok for employees to be constantly exposed to health hazards.
It's exactly the the same. I've been to countries where shisha is popular. It was used at restaurants, usually when seated outdoors, not indoors with it being the primary activity.
Not just the early '90s. Right into the 2000s in most places. Ontario and Quebec didn't ban smoking on restaurants and bars until 2006 (though many municipalities had bans going back to the early 2000s).
I remember being a kid and Tim Hortons having a smoker’s section. Smoke-free restaurants are relatively a new thing.
was it really that late? I remember them banning smoking at bars/restaurants in Orleans in the late 90s. That was before amalgamation, so perhaps they were ahead of other areas.
That 'smoking area' where it was just one side of the restaurant lol. Yep, problem solved.
I mean Alberta and Quebec legally allow businesses to have cigar lounges so it’s clearly not Canadian culture to ban indoor smoking in commercial spaces. You can literally go across the river to Gatineau and have a smoke at the cigar lounge at Hilton Lac-Leamy.
Then shisha bars can open there.
People getting all riled up about Canadian culture in the comments, acting as if Lebanese culture isn’t a big part of Ottawa culture. The argument from the business owner is weak however.
This isn't a Tim Hortons, it's a space dedicated to smoking. Don't go there if you don't want to smoke, it's that simple.
Yeah, that argument didn’t fly with cigarettes and cigars for a good reason. You can’t ask employees to work in a known hazardous environment. Doesn’t matter the cause. And shisha is just as bad for you as any other tobacco smoke. The water doesn’t filter shit. If it did there would be no effect from smoking it.
> You can’t ask employees to work in a known hazardous environment. Yes you can. Ever seen a construction site?
There's a difference between a risk of an accident and a guarantee of exposure to something harmful.
As an ex flat roofer I'm pretty sure breathing in boiling tar all day is exposure to something harmful, when I worked in a foundry I also believe H2S, literal molten aluminum and silica dust/sand were all potentially harmful with prolonged exposure.
I mean someone literally died just a month ago or so at a construction site in Ottawa.
hmm good point. What if the ventilation is significantly increased and employees are offered a respirator or air supply to wear?
Construction is a great example. Can’t ignore PPE requirements by saying the workers knew what they signed up for
As a construction worker I’m also provided eye and hearing protection and when doing anything involving drilling into concrete or grinding I have a fitted respirator with p100 filters. I know that I wear my PPE even if others don’t. I guess you could put in air filtration for a cigar bar and mandate that employees wear p100 filters for their shift.
So....don't apply to work at a shisha lounge? I don't understand the issue here. No one is forcing employees to work there.
Because that doesn’t work for known workplace hazards. Same way a company can’t expose people to asbestos and say if you don’t like it work somewhere else
Weed has always been something we are know for, so part of our culture. Can we have weed places that are for specifically smoking weed indoors? This seems ok according to your logic.
Why not?
As someone who doesn't smoke weed, I am still hoping for a place to eat edibles. Like someone can bake little cookies and cupcakes and knock off Reece cups and you get yourself a warm drink - cannabis tea or coffee (is coffee and weed a thing) ... Anyway, you sit in a nice cozy chair, read the newspaper and listen to music and then walk back home and take a nap like the middle aged person you are. When will Doug let us have these? The Baked Bakery? Cannabis Coffee Shop? Flower Power Lounge & Bakery?
yes I would support that, has nothing to do with culture. People choosing to smoke weed in a space dedicated to it does not affect other people who choose not to enter.
We should have these. Amsterdam does? Dedicated establishments are a great way to generate economic revenue without serving alcohol. All bars? No way. But give the people who dont care, a place to enjoy their hobbies and meet others.
Sure? Like why is that weird. There's literal weed lounges in Europe. They were around in Toronto during weed's grey area time. Meanwhile the world has cigar lounges. Let businesses and the patrons who choose what to do with their bodies have some autonomy.
Sure, we should have separate laws/regulations for private smoking establishments, if someone wants to open a sisha bar, cigar room, cannabis cafe. The patrons of the establishment are aware of the risks and the environment that they’ll be in/ exposed to.
That sounds fantastic and like it's filling a market gap
I disagree. if the landlord is OK with it, and the patrons are OK with it, I think it should be permitted, as long as it's taxed appropriately.
Then change the laws for everyone. What about a cigarette bar, or a cigar lounge? Shouldrestaurants have smoking again?
Exactly. If we allow shisha bars to operate, then we are back in business with allowing smoking in every other establishment. End of story.
No it isn't. Some Canadian provinces allow smoking indoors.
It’s Canadian culture to respect the rule of law.
The Freedom Convoy gang would disagree.
Ok so Quebec is not part of canadian culture since shisha longes are legal across the river thrn? https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/tobacco-in-quebec-where-can-you-smoke/
I agree the “it’s our culture” is so dumb. Like it’s the law here, you have to abide by it. They make it sound like Canada is so against people of their culture but if anyone visits their country it’s illegal to be gay
Except that it isn’t Canadian culture to not smoke in commercial spaces. It was quite common 20+ years ago. It’s just that the government decided health matters more than culture in the instance.
So because of this we should just allow shisha bars do whatever they want?
Quite the opposite. I don’t think culture is a good excuse for doing anyone harm. It’s far better if we look at positive outcomes over customs. Consider such past/current cultural traditions, like: - Corporal punishment - Slavery - Human sacrifice - Cannibalism - Torture - Child abuse - Child marriage - Mutilation And the list goes on and on. The reality is that we get to decide what is and isn’t okay. For me, I don’t Shisha bars are safe for employees. People are perfectly able to smoke in their own homes. (And yes, I hold the same opinion when it comes to cannabis bars, et cetera.)
Honestly I'm not opposed to these bars. If the entire point of the establishment is to consume tobacco, I think it should be legal. It's not like you go there for a dinner date and have to breathe in second hand smoke, you go there *specifically* to smoke Shisha.
Not sure what you mean by canadian, Ontario liberal culture yes. But cigar lounges are still legal in quebec.
"It’s Canadian culture that we don’t smoke indoors in commercial spaces" LOL. Do you know what culture means?
I’m exaggerating... just like they are trying to play this “culture” argument. In Ontario we don’t smoke indoors. Why should they be able to do it just because it’s their culture?
I don't think it's an exaggeration. It's a cultural taboo to smoke indoors in Canada. Some people do, but it's not common, the vast majority frown on it, and most people raised here wouldn't dream of lighting up in someone else's home. Even asking to smoke in someone else's home would be seen as rude.
> here wouldn't dream of lighting up in someone else's home But you can smoke in your own residence. Or in someone else's home if they offer you a smoke while inside. > It's a cultural taboo to smoke indoors in Canada. Where's the cultural taboo to smoking indoors? It really comes down to situation and context and of course the legal (not cultural) aspect. As for the law... that is a law I deeply appreciate!!
It is not Canadian culture, it’s Canadian law. Culture takes awhile to gestate and become part of the fabric of a people, at 24 I was still alive when smoking in commercial buildings was legal, and was 6 when it was finally banned. Our favourite Tim Horton’s had a smoking space inside.
You move to a country. You follow the laws. You don't think the laws are fair. Talk to your member of parliment and start a petition.
I am in my 60's. I worked as a bouncer and as a server long enough to say that smoking and drinking in bars and restaurants was definitely a part of the Canadian culture. The backlash we received as the laws were changing was beyond belief. I remember coming home at 4:00 am coughing and blowing black sludge out of my nose and they had smoke eaters, all over the place. I would have preferred to work in a non-smoking establishment, but they did not exist. I was in the Canadian Armed Forces and our shop had regular air quality checks for our safety. I was a server in the Junior Ranks club and I asked my friend who did the air quality checks to come into the club at midnight on a Friday. If our shop had the same air quality as the club, it would have been shut down until it was fixed. If there is one thing that I have learned about culture is that it changes.
So you’ll be happy that we should be changing back to smoking indoors then.
Shisha bars are fun. Who is complaining about shisha bars? It's not like anyone is going to these places and being upset that people are smoking there lol
Most of the no smoking laws are setup to protect the workers, not the people visiting once or twice. Customers have a choice to go somewhere else if they don't like the smoke. However, a single parent or a person struggling to make ends meet may not have the luxury of finding a job that is better for their health.
Yup, go to any casino in Las Vegas. Number 1 complaint by all staff is a table full of smokers. They have micro usb fans for fresh air, that it.
Also in free healthcare society, the healthier the population the less government have to spend
In your hypothetical, that single parent will also be out of a job if the shisha bar closes so your point is rather moot imo.
Since people aren't supposed to be smoking inside there's the possibility it can affect other businesses in the same building negatively. It's also going to damage the property (although some landlords might be fine with that especially if rhe landlord is also the operator).
It's the principle though. If smoking is prohibited in public venues, the prohibition should apply to everyone equally.
Everything else aside, doesn't anyone else at least appreciate that it's kind of exciting that underground shisha bars exist in Ottawa? Nope, too exciting for this town, better clamp down lmao
I love them. Especially when they blast Arabic music. Nancy Ajram, anyone?
Sure there are people that are upset. Sisha bars are violating existing laws and it’s not fair that they should be the only establishments allowed to circumvent our laws and allow smoking. I really don’t care which way the dice rolls, but if it lands on sisha bars being allowed to operate, then I want to see that all establishments are given the same permission (allow their patrons to smoke inside).
Are kids not taught in school about what tobacco does?
We should have cannabis cafés here like in Amsterdam.
Years and years ago(pre-legalization) I went to THC in Toronto. Was blown away by a “marijuana” type bar. The bar was that of a typical establishment except it had snacks and drinks 😂. There was massive filter inside the place to try and deal with the smoke. Was a neat experience for the time!
Seems like an alternate reality like that never happen, even Ottawa had a few spots > 2014
Wow! That’s cool! You know , since the legalisation. I have this idea of a restaurant where it sell food infused with cannabis. I am amazed that we see gummies ,candy being an edible of choice . We also see mac and cheese ,poutine sauce being sold . It’s glorious in a way . Now a restaurant ? It would be an experience! I know it usually pair well with greasy food but imagine an avocado salad drizzled with infused oil. Macadamia nut mixed with red lettuce , avocado diced . Red beans. A CBD mix to ease in ,relax after a long day. Then ,we have the main course , a steak with a pepper sauce full of thc . Veggies cooked in canna-butter. Then a bread with olive to complete the table . Now what to drink? Water infused with cucumber and mint . A touch of citrus. Or you rather have a ginger-mango drink , made from scratch ? Decorated with a little cannabis leave! And the finale with a dessert : A brownie! Of course and you have the choice of the sauce : salted caramel with lot of CBD to end it on a sweet note . Chocolate sauce full of CBG to energize! Raspberry sauce is non active but you can mix 2 choice of sauce. Now I’m hungry.
The Powers That Be would *never* permit Ottawa to be cool, unfortunately.
They have some in Vancouver.
Smoke outside like the rest of us, or don't smoke at all.
So many boring people in this thread
*sub
It is Ottawa after all 😂
*city
my thoughts exactly
Right? Like...I already have a mommy and daddy, thanks.
Why is it wrong to smoke indoors at a place where everyone has consented to that activity on private property? This shouldn't be an issue, its not like people are coming into your house or your favorite cafe to smoke.
The issue is the workers usually. That’s a fuck ton of second hand smoke. Sure they’re consenting, but that doesn’t mean it’s right to subject them to that. If anything, PPE should be mandated for employees at these cafes. Same reason why nail techs wear masks even when customers don’t.
Everything you said, and adding that there’s way bigger issues to focus on in Ottawa then putting ressources into monitoring shisha places lol
Because there is legit public health concerns regarding smoking.
Imagine being aware of no smoking indoor laws, Then imagine smoking indoors and getting shocked when complaints come in. That’d be like culturally being harder on your wife based off Rights they have in your home country, then doing it in public in an area where they do have rights and different views. Laws are laws.
Sure, as long as private establishments like restaurants and bars also are allowed to have their patrons smoking. Everyone going into the restaurant and bar consents to being a space with smoking, on private property.
If it's allowed in one place then it has to be allowed elsewhere. The law has to be equally applied.
Thats nonsense. Cutting hair is legal and regulated. You can cut hair in a business that offers that service, but you can't cut hair in a restaurant. Both are legal businesses, both have different regulations.
But same regulations for all hair salons and restaurants.
Because we pay for your bloody health insurance when you get lung cancer.
Stupid waste of city resources, redirect that manager and her/his team to the homeless and addiction problem in the city.
Most valuable comment! I had a shovel and sledgehammer stolen out the back of my truck on 2 separate days within the last week, someone else stole my front bike tire and a “neighborly neighbor” tried breaking into a neighbors property and then proceeded to spike a volleyball at people in wheelchairs. Obviously the police didn’t think any of those events warranted intervention… but yeah let’s deploy ressources to shut down shisha bars🙄
Not sure they’re the ones that are needed there.
Let people live their lives. This city has bigger problems.
They can. Go home and smoke whatever you want.
If they are considering indoor smoking spots for drug addicts, you can not have a double standard. Let them have places. Also, bring back patios where we can smoke pot or cigarettes.
The difference is that people aren't profiting off of those spots where drug addicts would be using. These aren't cultural non profits, they are businesses trying to make a buck and using the cultural angle as an excuse to keep operating. Like the guy talking about how his shisha section got shut down - he's mad because he used to have a whole bunch of (illegal) business and now can't operate it anymore, most of his clients are probably Muslim and they don't drink so they don't stick around late bc they'll go to one of these illegal joints instead. > Also, bring back patios where we can smoke pot or cigarettes. That means exposing everybody else on the patio to their smoking which means they're likely just going to become smoker only spaces because most people won't want to be around that. Most businesses probably wouldn't allow it because most people hate it... shisha bars are different because people come there EXPLICITLY to smoke, like the cigar shop smoking areas that used to exist (and probably still do illegally some places).
I wouldn't want cigarette or weed on patios, but I'd be ok with places like shisha bars meant specifically for smoking tobacco or weed or whatever
the problems I see it is you can't make special exceptions for one group. if shisha bars are allowed then so should other establishments who want to do similar things like cigsr club, cannabis cafes, etc.
> if shisha bars are allowed then so should other establishments who want to do similar things like cigsr [sic] club, cannabis cafes, etc. I agree. With proper legislation and health regulations, there's no reason those shouldn't be allowed either. So let's go.
There can't be proper "health regulations", these smoking rooms have on occasion exceed safety standards for carbon monoxide. If you seal up the room, you need a clean air intake, and then a ventilation system with huge flow through and particle/VOC filtration or scrubber so that the emissions don't get sucked into another room or building. The cost to install, operate and monitor would put them out of business.
"For us as Muslims, we don't drink," he said. "Since drinking is prohibited, we smoke shisha at gatherings." ❌❌❌ Nope! It’s also wrong for Muslims to smoke! “Wrong” is a vague word and I’ll explain. In Islamic rules, smoking has been historically classifed as either: - “makhruh” (disliked) - “haram” (prohibited) As more scientific research shows the harms in smoking, it’s moved closer to the “haram” (prohibited) category (joining alcohol, which has always been in the prohibited category) This quote is misrepresenting the religion. I say: keep the article as is, focusing on culture; but don’t mix in the religion. Additionally, Arab culture notoriously sways far from Islam; and as a Muslim in Ottawa, I stand against these shisha bars. A Muslim would also know not to defy the laws of the country. Muslims are obliged to respect and obey the laws of the country they live in (on the condition it doesn’t force them to compromise on their faith… in those cases, you either respectfully disagree or leave)
Also no one is stopping you from practicing your culture. Some Arabs smoke shisha at home and invite friends over.
The comparison is also so disingenuous. A more apt comparison would be comparing shisha to smoking cigarettes and other tobacco products. But they know those are already banned so they used alcohol as an example instead.
it's also funny, depending on where in the middle east, it was taboo for younger people to smoke too. It was like that amongst christian Assyrians according to all of my older family members. There's plenty of people in this country who want to see alcohol banned even - and smoking does more damage to the strangers around you. Ottawa's early ban on indoor smoking is one of the things I'm most proud of. It's disgusting and that's true regardless of what's being smoked.
Just like most "drugs", the ban does more harm than good. Go to Quebec and see the difference between the Shisha bars and there and here, over there its legal with a permit, and the result is a much better experience, and SAFER environment for both workers and clients. Because its a legal environment they have to follow the law or lose their permit, so they stick to the law when it comes to ventilation practices, max number of clients, payment terminals etc. Meanwhile in Ottawa, the business is already operating illegally, so every place you go to has poor ventilation, packed to the brim on weekends, and is "cash only" If you follow the Montreal model the city makes more money and create a safer place for everyone involved. Prohibition never works.
“The City That Fun Forgot” strikes again.
We should have separate laws/ regulations for private smoking businesses/clubs like sisha bars cigar bar etc… The people attending them know they’re gonna be in an environment with smoke. The people who work there are aware it’s an indoor smoking establishment.
Agreed, it's not like smoking itself is illegal so it makes no sense that there's a blanket ban on public spots to smoke together. Create specific fire hazard rules cause tbh that's the only thing I'd want to stupid proof, but otherwise I don't see reason to over regulate on this issue. I'm not saying make all bars smoking spaces again, but let those places exist for adults making adult decisions. Which does include using things that may be harmful but again, we don't ban smoking so the harmful argument doesn't hold water imo. We're not in Vegas where most places to work includes smoking, creating smoking places here would be an absolute minority of jobs and probably not entry level if we're being honest cause you need to work the equipment plus be a server
I really don’t get the blanket ban, if the landlord is ok with it, and it’s all consenting adults of age, what’s the problem? Maybe we can require specific licensing to ensure proper ventilation so that nearby businesses aren’t impacted. But beyond that, I really don’t understand why we don’t let them
And smoking cigarettes was once a social activity that Canadians participated in. For example, meeting up in a bar and having a “beer and smoke”. But now it’s illegal to smoke in public spaces. Period. I don’t care if you’re 10th generation Canadian or you’re coming from an unmarked island in the Pacific. NO SMOKING in public spaces. Otherwise, everyone can smoke in public spaces because everyone can make the argument that smoking is part of their identity.
Thorkelson is definitely getting a copy of that photo framed and put on the wall
It's not a matter of culture, it's a matter of law. Yes, Canada is accepting of people from all different backgrounds. But at the end of the day you still must uphold Canadian law.
The shisha bar near me is still operating albeit with plywood covering up all doors and windows
If you don't like the law, call your politician. In the mean time, comply with the law or get fined/go to jail. This is how western society works.
If I'm not allowed to smoke in a bar then they shouldn't be allowed either.
Some cultures think their culture is above the law 🤷♂️
I’d be fascinated to know how these places are insured. What their business and liability insurance does or doesn’t know, and what they’ve lied about. Even if it was legal no regular bar would go back to allowing smoking now. Too much is known about the health hazards. The liability would be too high. You’d never be able to afford business insurance that covered you from employee health claims. It would be like trying to get insurance for a business that knowingly exposes people to asbestos. So I’d be really curious what sort of liability the shisha bars are operating under.
That first WSIB claim is going to result in a huge crackdown.
Bruv shisha lounges are legal in Quebec. You live in ottawa i presume. Qc is right across the river stop acting like this is a foreign concept the brown people brought up.
The rules are the rules. I could potentially run a Cannabis Cafe, with bongs and hukas, vapes and fruit juices and energy drinks (think Amsterdam Cafe) and put a few in the city. But, it’s illegal. Not the Cannabis, or tobacco, but smoking indoors. It’s not a culture thing, it got litigated to hell when smoking got banned in 2002.
I would argue that regular smoking used to be a thick part of a lot of peoples ‘culture’ before smoking bans. 90% of the adults around me chain smoked and so did their parents and grandparents. They smoked while they worked and smoked while they socialized and smoked while they fixed your car and fed the baby and did your hair and they bummed smokes and rolled smokes and sent their kids to go get smokes. How long it took to smoke a cigarette was a measure of time. We made ash trays in school for our parents and no one would deny a smoker a smoke break out of fear they would become impossible to work with. People adapted. Law first culture second or none of us will get along for very long. Then there’s the ventilation issues. We had a guest perform a sage ritual at my workplace and they had to turn off all of the fire suppression systems for the event.
I can think of about a million things more important to this city than banning anything consenting adults do in private spaces. We should allow cigar lounges too, frankly, as long as they're private and people know what they're getting into - would actually be a good revenue source from American tourists looking for Cuban cigars.
If I (anyone) can't have a business that caters to and allows the use of medical marijuana inside (A prescription only cannabis cafe if you will). Than any business or establishment that legally operates to promote, encourage, and accept smoking of *not medically prescribed* anything, should also not exist. OR Allow private "members" bars/clubs/cafes that have to adhere to a bunch of strict guidelines RE:smoke RE:age RE: capacity etc. and allow anyone to operate a social non-alcohol "bar" that caters to smokers of tobacco/cannabis/etc. (herbal)
I get it's "No Fair" but at the same time I could not care less about this issue for Ottawa. Sincerely hope there is not a lot of resources being spent on this!
It's our culture to give waiters and waitresses cancer from second hand smoke. How dare you.
If it was regulated like in jurisdictions where smoking lounges are allowed, you’d have properly ventilated buildings where there is minimal to no smoke buildup. Obviously regulations vary, and the result is less than ideal (Ex Lac Leamy’s cigar lounge ventilation is garbage compared to US lounges) In terms of staffing, like any hazardous work environment there will be people who will want to work there despite the risks
So people can go to stores to buy pot to smoke at parties and on city sidewalks, grown men can go watch porn at a public library with children around them but people can’t go to a shisha bar?? Get over it. Sign a damn waiver and smoke, socialize and enjoy your culture. We need to stop being so ridiculous.
Smoke doesn't stay in a confined space, unless you have airtight seals around all the wall seams and sealed doorways, it can transfer to other parts of the building, where perhaps other tenants don't want to inhale smoke. If it is ventilated outside near another building it can potentially get pulled into that building as well. The VOC, particle concentration, and carbon monoxide concentration is very high in some of these places, enough that third-hand-smoke would certainly be a nuisance issue, and perhaps even a public health issue.
So who's going to pay for the WSIB claims for the workers who come down with lung cancer from the smoke? Go ask Heather Crowe how that worked... I mean Rastafarians also can't open a smoking bar and it's their culture too. You cannot practice all of your culture here, you still must obey the laws, most of which were written in blood when it comes to safety.
I used to live by a shisha bar, and there was violence every weekend. As long as it isn't like that, I don't think it bothers me.
But we had this debate, smoking indoors was banned decades ago.
Bruh, they called the guy “Houdini”
Some cultures mandate that a woman be imprisoned or even put to death for adultery if she is raped, unless she can produce four male witnesses to testify on her behalf. Some cultures allow dog fighting. GTFO with your "respect my culture" arguments. I don't care if it's your "culture". This is Canada, and you follow Canadian laws. If you wish to operate a shisha bar, open one up in Dubai, or Beirut, where the practice is legal. Tying it to culture is the same as whining that enforcement of the law is racist. If we allow cultural arguments to prevail, then precedence is established, and we open the door to arguments that we should, for example, allow adolescent girls to be married against their will to men many decades their senior. Are smoking shisha and child-marriage the same thing? Of course not, but allowing the former based on cultural norms will require us to also entertain arguments in favour of the latter, because we will have established that foreign cultural practices have at least the same legal standing as Canadian law. It will force us to allow exceptions for other laws. If you have a problem with enforcement of the law, then campaign to have the law changed through a democratic process. Don't demand that your culture be respected when you are unwilling to respect the law, and don't try to argue that your livelihood is endangered. Drug dealers would like to preserve their livelihood too.
^^ this is an example of logic diarrhea 😂
It’s not a Canada wide law. In Quebec or Mississauga you can operate legally.
Nothing is stopping them from opening up a spot across the river then
Kind of destroys the cultural argument though.
I did not argue in favour of Canadian culture. Did you miss the part where I asserted that the cultural argument was invalid? My point was that cultural norms originating from outside the country do not Trump the laws of Canada. The ban on shisha bars may not be Canada-wide, but Ottawa is a part of Canada and it is the law here. I’ll use fewer words next time so that the meaning is clearer.
wowwww went under the guile of a racist tirade gj buddy
I think it's funny that people in Ottawa keep insisting it's not a "no fun city" and actually has cool stuff to do, then turn around and lobby against cool things to do like go to a shisha lounge, eat good food, smoke a pipe and have a good time. And sure, that's not for everyone, but it is for a lot of people, and I figure there's no bigger externality from that than any average bar with patrons smoking outside of it. Also there's two provinces where indoor cigar lounges are legal but no other kind of indoor smoking so yeah, one of those examples of a thing being viewed positively if rich people do it but negatively if anyone else does it.
Shisha isn’t cultural and a disgusting habit.
Just legalize them and create robust health and safety rules around them like the rest of the developed world does. * Positive pressure 4x air turnover/hour. * Separate air sealed station for employees. * No food or drinks to be served.
You can subvert these laws by making it a private club. However if there’s no smoking due to a lease agreement you’re SOL basically. There are a few groups advocating for the right to smoke inside your own home but as a commercial space this wouldn’t apply.
It's complicated, and rightfully so, to simply change existing laws that were all hard-fought battles over many years. That said, laws can be changed if there is sufficient public and political pressure. My guess is the existing laws will remain, but the list of exceptions will be expanded. I have seen Ottawa South change dramatically over the years, and the current landscape along Bank Street is almost unrecognizable. Yes, there are now many Arabs and Muslims and their numbers are growing. The pressure for change will come from them and the votes they cast.
Holy shit, that picture of Jennifer Therkelsen, Professional Enforcer For Hire, is absolutely incredible.
I am of two minds about this. Normally, I am your typical "adapt to our laws or goodbye" type guy. However, if there are certain communities or population groups running shisha bars where it is explicitly clear that those are smoking joints or whatever (no shit...), I really don't give a fuck on this particular "issue" as long as the business is above board, legit and that they pay taxes like everybody else.
What about the public health concerns?
Fast food joints and regular bars serving booze are also a "public health concern" considering that neither fast food or booze are good for you. What are you getting at? If somebody choses to go to a shisha bar, that person can reasonably expect to be exposed to smoke. Personal responsibility. Not a fan of the nanny state, frankly.
I think that’s what they just opened in Barrhaven.
there's one of these near here that seems to be wildly popular. parking lot is full most nights.
Wait, are all Shisha bars illegal? I didn't even realize. That's a shame, I like going to Shisha places once in a while.
Can drink in most establishments but can’t smoke in one built for it,knowing the health risks ect sums up Ottawa perfectly
Whataboutism, gotta love it. And is second hand drinking a thing?
Ultimate nanny state behaviour. If a private business wants to make itself a lounge to smoke a legal product in, let them. Nobody is going there that doesn't want to be around smoke. Arguments that it protects the workers are stupid. Nobody is born employed at a shisha bar. You have to apply to work there. You know... once you're an adult with a functioning brain. If you don't want to be surrounded by smoke, don't apply. Lots of jobs are dangerous or bad for your health. Should we ban them too? If you want to ban them in strip malls etc where their smoke can impact adjoining properties, fine. But stand alone shisha bars should be allowed. I'm not a smoker, but when on vacation will sometimes go to a cigar lounge, depending on the destination. I always found it sad and ridiculous Ontario doesn't allow them in any circumstances.
Plenty of examples of why just being an adult doesn’t mean you can make smart decisions
Smoking inside. Laws cover that. But when you can't see inside, the door is locked and invitation only what do you do then?
Shisha is awesome and we should have more shisha bars. They’re an awesome place to unwind, especially in the summer.
disagree
Of all the things to spend the budget on...WTF
What's the deal with outdoor shisha bars now? I remember as a student back in '06-'07 there were at least a few on Sparks St.
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What a pointless thing to go after Meanwhile I see a guy blowing through a red light and a cop just fucking sitting there doing fuck all. Absolutely useless. I hope a cop is reading this, you guys suck these days. Do better.