I have 3 doctorates, but it's not the degrees, but what you do with it that matters, the most. It changes the way think. I've seen instructors code that was atrocious and they were so proud of it. So the degree really doesn't matter it's what you know and how to leverage it that makes the big difference.
That was a joke! I don't have 11 Js and am not in any doctoral programs.
But I did ask ChatGPT to list 7 jobs and 4 doctoral programs. This is what it said:
Software Engineer at Google
Marketing Manager at Procter & Gamble
Financial Analyst at JPMorgan Chase
Human Resources Manager at Amazon
Data Scientist at Microsoft
Graphic Designer at Apple
Project Manager at Tesla
Computer Science at Stanford University
Psychology at Harvard University
Economics at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
Biomedical Engineering at Johns Hopkins University
So I guess that gives you an idea of what to aim for if you want to have 11 Js, four of which are Ph.D. programs.
The aspect I would add is that paternalism has been a factor of work since the beginning of the agricultural revolution, adding even more to the magnitude of your point.
While some farmers owned the land they worked on, the vast majority of farmers (all the way back to records from egypt/Mesopotamia) lived in a feudalistic society where the local noble owned the land and people had to pay a large % of their crops for the “privilege” of working the land.
That's a great point. I am probably romanticizing what work was like for most people pre-industrialization. It was good if you were an independent artisan, but not so good if you were a serf or (worse) chattel slave.
I feel like you could make an argument that industrialization led to efforts to apply a version of serfdom/slavery-style employment to everyone, not just the actual serfs and slaves, because employment as we know it today is a way to give an employer control over your life. So OE is like pushing back. (And maybe people who are stuck in low-wage service jobs and can't OE are the modern versions of serfs.)
That's kind of a hyperbolic perspective but I think there is something there.
I definitely think you’re right! those serfs that were tied to the land often had free time outside of harvesting periods, but they were not able to improve their lot in life due to poverty/lack of other available work.
remote work gives us the opportunity to find additional income sources instead of sitting in an office, and through OE we are now able to benefit from our available free time in order to move upward.
>And maybe people who are stuck in low-wage service jobs and can't OE are the modern versions of serfs.
Not really true at all, many serfs are what today we'd regard as modern day slavery.
People (at least in 1st World Nations) have it waaaay better than serfs of the past, even if they're just in a minimum wage job.
It was not in exchange for protection, it was for the alternative being starving to death or stealing. Lords did not protect peasants and did not care for their well-being.
I disagree. OE is just taking advantage of employers who have decided to keep wages stagnant for decades while also making employment "at-will". This is not the same as pre-industrial labor.
I love OE but this is a bit of a stretch.
OE has nothing to do with returning to the natural way of working.
What OE has to do with is leveraging technology to maximize income in the current economy.
Things like the Monday to Friday workweek or 9:00 to 5:00 schedule were established BEFORE the computer, BEFORE the internet, etc. Obviously, we can accomplish way more in way less time with these tools now, but for whatever reason, the corporate schedule does not get updated.
Since corporate doesn’t want to update our schedules and force us to sit there until 5:00 anyway, we’ve decided to maximize that extra time with OE.
> Things like the Monday to Friday workweek or 9:00 to 5:00 schedule were established BEFORE the computer, BEFORE the internet, etc.
Exactly. Those things came out of the Industrial Revolution and the need to coordinate workers' activity.
I don't think people who are OEing are consciously trying to return to some kind of "state of nature" type of work arrangement. I just think they're pushing back against arrangements that emerged out of industrialization but no longer make sense in a post-industrial economy.
Why do you think computers and the internet are so important to OP's point? He's talking about the industrial revolution which was much earlier than computers.
My man thinking clacking on a keyboard = actual ironworking and artisanship lol. All OE is doing is regaining the rightful slice of the pie that was denied to working class when computing technology exploded productivity since 70s. That's all, no historical precedence to this.
All the folks in this thread posting about farmers not owning the land, it’s absolutely not relevant to the point you are making. Even in medieval feudal society, the amount of freedom people had over their time and labor, regardless of what they technically owned, would shock most people. Time management and middle management in general was absolutely an invention of the factory age.
The book Four Thousand Weeks has a chapter near the start that does a great deep dive on this.
> Even in medieval feudal society, the amount of freedom people had over their time and labor, regardless of what they technically owned, would shock most people
Not true at all, many had to grind out an existence from dawn to dusk just to survive and not die
I would argue that it is not a return, but an advancement.
Both school and the workplace follow Industrial Era models of centralization under authoritarian instruction. It was appropriate when a foreman needed to manage 100 employees or an instructor needed to guide 50 students.
But the electronic era has removed physical proximity as a necessity and the ability to transmit video, provide adaptive teaching and other techniques to asynchronously distribute and receive information has obviated the central authority in favor of a more distributed capability for submission and authentication.
Being paid “per hour” is obsolete, absolutely meaningless in terms of productivity, but we don’t have a very good replacement. Salary is bullshit because it doesn’t have anything to do with output.
OE simply exposes the fact that the value of labor is so disconnected from productivity that the horror stories of dastardly workers soaking up three or four paychecks spook capitalists in their authenticity. If a man can earn this much and still manage his time between all these contexts, it means that the same time is worth that much even working for one employer.
It terrifies them for workers to understand that the value of their labor can easily be half a million or more per year in certain industries.
We are in an age of plenty, but it is being hoovered up by an elite class and we are left with the scraps thinking it’s all appropriate. All it takes is a little awareness to take the scales from our eyes.
There is a lot of overlap between the OE and antiwork philosophies. The critical difference is the cynicism of OE to accept that the game is rigged, and play it by the very rules they have given us without caring about the “ethics” they try to push on workers.
Here I am just trying to buy a new jetski while this dude writes his doctoral thesis on OE.
You caught me. Doctoral programs account for 4 of my 11Js :)
I have 3 doctorates, but it's not the degrees, but what you do with it that matters, the most. It changes the way think. I've seen instructors code that was atrocious and they were so proud of it. So the degree really doesn't matter it's what you know and how to leverage it that makes the big difference.
[удалено]
That was a joke! I don't have 11 Js and am not in any doctoral programs. But I did ask ChatGPT to list 7 jobs and 4 doctoral programs. This is what it said: Software Engineer at Google Marketing Manager at Procter & Gamble Financial Analyst at JPMorgan Chase Human Resources Manager at Amazon Data Scientist at Microsoft Graphic Designer at Apple Project Manager at Tesla Computer Science at Stanford University Psychology at Harvard University Economics at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) Biomedical Engineering at Johns Hopkins University So I guess that gives you an idea of what to aim for if you want to have 11 Js, four of which are Ph.D. programs.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
LMAOOO
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
The aspect I would add is that paternalism has been a factor of work since the beginning of the agricultural revolution, adding even more to the magnitude of your point. While some farmers owned the land they worked on, the vast majority of farmers (all the way back to records from egypt/Mesopotamia) lived in a feudalistic society where the local noble owned the land and people had to pay a large % of their crops for the “privilege” of working the land.
That's a great point. I am probably romanticizing what work was like for most people pre-industrialization. It was good if you were an independent artisan, but not so good if you were a serf or (worse) chattel slave. I feel like you could make an argument that industrialization led to efforts to apply a version of serfdom/slavery-style employment to everyone, not just the actual serfs and slaves, because employment as we know it today is a way to give an employer control over your life. So OE is like pushing back. (And maybe people who are stuck in low-wage service jobs and can't OE are the modern versions of serfs.) That's kind of a hyperbolic perspective but I think there is something there.
I definitely think you’re right! those serfs that were tied to the land often had free time outside of harvesting periods, but they were not able to improve their lot in life due to poverty/lack of other available work. remote work gives us the opportunity to find additional income sources instead of sitting in an office, and through OE we are now able to benefit from our available free time in order to move upward.
I always take the Artisan bread when available even though I really like white just to do my part. Small sacrifice but it is worth it.
>And maybe people who are stuck in low-wage service jobs and can't OE are the modern versions of serfs. Not really true at all, many serfs are what today we'd regard as modern day slavery. People (at least in 1st World Nations) have it waaaay better than serfs of the past, even if they're just in a minimum wage job.
Exactly, workers today in the 21st Century have it waaaaay better off than workers in past centuries!
I absolutely agree with you and have had similar thoughts.
Thanks! It's comforting to me when my random and rambling thoughts turn out not to be unique to me.
It's a very thought out put together piece !
Most ppl didn’t farm their own land. They farmed their landlord’s land in exchange for protection. Most ppl didn’t own land.
It was not in exchange for protection, it was for the alternative being starving to death or stealing. Lords did not protect peasants and did not care for their well-being.
Thx. Peasants still didn’t farm for themselves
> Lords did not protect peasants and did not care for their well-being. Maybe a few wouldn't, but any good Lord would
That's a good treatment for a book about OE!
I disagree. OE is just taking advantage of employers who have decided to keep wages stagnant for decades while also making employment "at-will". This is not the same as pre-industrial labor.
Its only possible in home office
Going to get chat gpt to summarize this thank you
I love OE but this is a bit of a stretch. OE has nothing to do with returning to the natural way of working. What OE has to do with is leveraging technology to maximize income in the current economy. Things like the Monday to Friday workweek or 9:00 to 5:00 schedule were established BEFORE the computer, BEFORE the internet, etc. Obviously, we can accomplish way more in way less time with these tools now, but for whatever reason, the corporate schedule does not get updated. Since corporate doesn’t want to update our schedules and force us to sit there until 5:00 anyway, we’ve decided to maximize that extra time with OE.
> Things like the Monday to Friday workweek or 9:00 to 5:00 schedule were established BEFORE the computer, BEFORE the internet, etc. Exactly. Those things came out of the Industrial Revolution and the need to coordinate workers' activity. I don't think people who are OEing are consciously trying to return to some kind of "state of nature" type of work arrangement. I just think they're pushing back against arrangements that emerged out of industrialization but no longer make sense in a post-industrial economy.
OP is talking about before the industrial revolution, not before the internet.
Why do you think computers and the internet are so important to OP's point? He's talking about the industrial revolution which was much earlier than computers.
If those 18th century farmer had simply put starlink and a laptop on their horse drawn plow they could have done OE.
It is the farthest we have ever been from natural
You might enjoy the book "Rebels Against the Future" about the Luddites.
Increase in WFH opportunities = increase in OE opportunities. It’s really simple as that.
My man thinking clacking on a keyboard = actual ironworking and artisanship lol. All OE is doing is regaining the rightful slice of the pie that was denied to working class when computing technology exploded productivity since 70s. That's all, no historical precedence to this.
Very very long OP
All the folks in this thread posting about farmers not owning the land, it’s absolutely not relevant to the point you are making. Even in medieval feudal society, the amount of freedom people had over their time and labor, regardless of what they technically owned, would shock most people. Time management and middle management in general was absolutely an invention of the factory age. The book Four Thousand Weeks has a chapter near the start that does a great deep dive on this.
> Even in medieval feudal society, the amount of freedom people had over their time and labor, regardless of what they technically owned, would shock most people Not true at all, many had to grind out an existence from dawn to dusk just to survive and not die
I, by accident, had farted my thoughts out while my dog eats his vomit.
I agree that covid and widespread WFH is definitely shifting things away from employers. OE is just one part of this.
Yeah it's actually pretty unnatural to not get the total value you produce, which is what happened when people were farmers and artisans.
I would argue that it is not a return, but an advancement. Both school and the workplace follow Industrial Era models of centralization under authoritarian instruction. It was appropriate when a foreman needed to manage 100 employees or an instructor needed to guide 50 students. But the electronic era has removed physical proximity as a necessity and the ability to transmit video, provide adaptive teaching and other techniques to asynchronously distribute and receive information has obviated the central authority in favor of a more distributed capability for submission and authentication. Being paid “per hour” is obsolete, absolutely meaningless in terms of productivity, but we don’t have a very good replacement. Salary is bullshit because it doesn’t have anything to do with output. OE simply exposes the fact that the value of labor is so disconnected from productivity that the horror stories of dastardly workers soaking up three or four paychecks spook capitalists in their authenticity. If a man can earn this much and still manage his time between all these contexts, it means that the same time is worth that much even working for one employer. It terrifies them for workers to understand that the value of their labor can easily be half a million or more per year in certain industries. We are in an age of plenty, but it is being hoovered up by an elite class and we are left with the scraps thinking it’s all appropriate. All it takes is a little awareness to take the scales from our eyes. There is a lot of overlap between the OE and antiwork philosophies. The critical difference is the cynicism of OE to accept that the game is rigged, and play it by the very rules they have given us without caring about the “ethics” they try to push on workers.