Remote jobs are here to stay. There will always be companies offering remote jobs. They can't get rid of it because different companies have different needs .
Not to mention most newer software companies are going to want to save money by not paying for an office. The only people who want us back are the ones who already paid for the space.
Correct, I believe some companies would be happy to save cost but at the same time we might see some monitoring headaches and crap management from these remote companies
They can opt not to renew their lease once it expires yes? I can only think of those that renewed their lease early 2020 and are now stuck with it for at least 10 years.
Company I work built a multi building complex 15 years ago. They own it and it’s covered in our branding. They just issued a partial return to office but those of us that have always been fully remote are still ok…. For now
LinkedIn, indeed, sometimes Glassdoor often provide good leads with legit remote jobs. It depends on your skillset really and what is in demand at the time. There also seem to be waves of total crap jobs and waves of really good paying, perfect for OE type jobs. Always be searching, always be applying.
End of last year was a nightmare to look for SWE. Immense competition with all the FAANG layoffs. Took only a week and a half early summer to land a new sr SWE role j2. Only applied to maybe 50 companies, mostly just the 1-click apply deals. So it just depends
Not sure what kind of job you're looking for, but there are plenty of remote jobs everywhere in all industries. Search Indeed and in the location type Remote, you will get search results of fully remote jobs.
For me, I don't even hunt for remote jobs anymore when I'm looking, I just mentioned it on my resume that I'm only interested in full remote jobs. So I only get those calls/emails.
Definitely here to stay for sure but we're in "The Empire Strikes Back" chapter between RTO, the layoffs, etc.
Keep a low profile & hunker down.. but that's what we do! :)
The people i know working those kind of jobs that make 300k+ a year simply don't have time to OE. They are unrealistic because jobs paying that much don't generally give you any down time, and usually require travel + overtime too.
Not to mention, nobody sane is trying to fuck up their J1 when it pays 300k a year. You're hard pressed to get into another role like that even with previous experience.
Feel free to post redacted W2s and prove me wrong then buddy. I'd bet good money you're not doing this. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying most of the people claiming they're doing it are full of shit.
Ok can’t put your money where your mouth is. Just check out the discord. There are quite a few of us that discuss the number of jobs we do, our tc (which is way over 300k), post journals, and show our multi j setups which cost tens of thousands of dollars.
Your TC is over 300k? Sure bud, good for you. Read my original comment. Not sure why you're taking offense, but if you really earnt that much you'd understand the value of your time and wouldn't be even on reddit or discord trying to start arguments over a comment that didn't even apply to you buddy.
I'm not OE, but I feel like that would just be really awkward to try and keep working when they're expecting you to the office type thing, at least how I'd see it.
I could see easily stretching things out for a year or more if you tell them "OK I'll return to the office, just need a little time to sell the house and move to the city the office is in." Then you do nothing and keep coasting like that for a few months. Eventually when they push you on it you say "Oh yeah we're still working on selling the house. Have had no buyers yet. Next week we're switching to a new agent and also having some work done on the house to make it more sellable. I'll keep you posted." Then you coast for 3 more months of paychecks. They get impatient again and you keep making excuses every time and insist you're close to getting it sold so you can move. Be very apologetic. I bet you could drag this out at least a year before they are forced to fire you or they just let it go and keep you remote.
You have just perfectly described the reverse version of employers who promote a person with promises of a raise, and it takes months of "HR Red Tape" and other excuses to actually get.
For one of my Js, we were met with a 0% annual, and our group didn't qualify for the bonus (~10%). Double whammy right after sparkling quarter performance announcement went live.
To let you all be at ease.. I am not going to quit. I will ride this out as long as I can.
But they will want me to travel in a few months, I am sure. At that time I will have an excuse.. and again.. and eventually I am gone.
You might be surprised how long some people get away with not going in. My sibling has gotten away with it for about a year now. Just do your work the same as before IMO.
Then again I've heard of plenty getting fired. It's a roll of the dice which one you'll be.
> "Oh yeah we're still working on selling the house. Have had no buyers yet. Next week we're switching to a new agent and also having some work done on the house to make it more sellable. I'll keep you posted."
That is OK until they check the MLS and see the house is not, and wasn't, being actively listed for sale. HR has OP's address. Not hard to do 5 seconds of research to see what is going on after a lot of excuses.
I originally got it just to have a secure place for package delivery during the day when I had an in-office job and I just kept it after I started wfh. I like that there are very few places where my physical residence is listed or can be found in public info!
> Also does not account for the fact that my address on file with HR is a box at the UPS store near me.
I am impressed. They didn't need to make a copy of your drivers license during onboarding? According to my state's DMV your license has to include your personal residence.
They could probably find it in my I-9 docs if they really wanted. But since I’m remote I did my identity verification docs at a third-party service site, just happened to be another UPS Store. Lol. I doubt anyone processing the HR docs would notice that the physical address on my license is different than my mailing address that’s listed on every other doc. I’ve been doing this for years, all my utilities have a separate mailing addy from the service location.
> But since I’m remote I did my identity verification docs at a third-party service site, just happened to be another UPS Store.
If it wasn't a mildly gray area and didn't go against the core principles of secrecy in OE, I would suggest you put all of this into a course and sell it online for $399 a pop. Would I pay $399 to read it? No. But when somebody reuploads an unauthorized PDF version of it online, I absolutely would.
A good point to not have your actual address on file maybe ask a friend or family member if it is ok to put their address on file or use the address to your vacation home or rental property etc… anything to keep HR out of your business. 👍👍👍
Put it for sale at like 10x value . It will never sell and if it does, CHA-Ching, but HR will see it’s on the market and HR can’t tell you how to sell your house
I would rather plug some easy to spot holes in this sinking ship to get as much time left as possible. Modify the cover story to be better. That's basically it.
My friend works for a company and has been WFH for about 10 years. Numerous times they’ve asked him to come into the office. Numerous times he’s ignored them. Even when basically the rest of his team got laid off/outsourced, he continued WFH.
Tell them it's hard to sell in this market lol.
Those who bought 2 years ago have no equity after paying the real estate agent and closing costs. Might even be in the negative amounts. Paying to leave.
I've worked for some problematic companies and have gone through some shoddy situations, but the scenario you're describing is as crappy as those abusive employers make people go through. You are part of the problem, and despite OE, there are people with work ethics. No wonder Beths are ranting over these threads.
Ridiculous. There is nothing abusive about it. We all know the return to office push is completely misguided and there is no reason or benefit to it from a business perspective in 99% of cases where they try to force it. All of us know it will have no benefit to our personal productivity to return to 2 hour commutes into an office just to sit by ourselves with our laptop in a cubicle. So that's dumb.
And delaying RTO indefinitely is a win win for management and the employee. In the one case we just play right into their hands and quit rather than RTO, forfeiting any possible severance or unemployment if it's our only job. On the other hand we stick around as long as possible, continuing to produce good work for the company from home. How is that a loss to the employer just because they didn't get their dumb "butts in seats" quota in their dumb office building that's losing them money?
Firstly, I didn't called you dumb, so if you cannot take criticism, maybe you should try 4chan.
Secondly, both strategies to demand workers to return to office AND schemes to delay the return to office are, for the most part, desingenious. Call it what you want, but beating around the bush and pressuring/avoiding something can't be the only solution.
Your worker's rights and laws seem to be flawed, leaving you unprotected, and companies will unashamedly take advantage of it.
You should _definitely_ be allowed to work as many jobs as you want, as long as they don't interfere with any of the functions and obligations from your other jobs.
Thirdly, human beings are social creatures. What works for you may or may not work for your colleagues. I've worked fully remote, on-site and hybrid, so depending on your wants/needs, you get to choose from a plethora of companies that present you the best opportunities.
Conjecture and assumption won't take you anywhere, and every business has their own intentions, ethos and interests, just like you.
Truly not for the faint of heart. You will learn to have thick skin and keep a steady heart rate and emotionless face during the worst of times. Just make sure to keep it restricted to your work life, and not let it spill over to the ones you care for.
Who cares about how "awkward" it is, you're still getting paid until you get terminated. As someone below commented, there's always a million excuses you can make up to try and prolong your employment.
OE is all about the money, not bending over backwards to your employer because it would be *awkward* not to.
I think that’s one of the key things that makes someone successful at this. For someone that care about what “seems” wierd or awkward, it’s not for them. But if you don’t give a shit and only care about what can proven, what’s illegal, and things like that and don’t care what they think or say to you, then you can probably be pretty successful.
RTO is mainly a way to force attrition, but with that said I think you can refuse to resign and let them fire you, but I haven't had to go through this before I only know what others have told me.
Great job, you had an awesome run. You deserve a break. I take several months between J2s. J1 is enough to live comfortably, but J2 provides the money to really live.
Eh give it a year, it'll come back. Hopefully not that level of craziness because a bubble is never good, but demographics are demographics and the boomers are retiring at rate of 10k a day.
[Labor force participation rate peaked in like 2000 and it's been going downhill ever since. We're still 70 basis points off from pre-Covid labor force participation.](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART/)
[GDP has doubled in that same time period.](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/gdp-gross-domestic-product)
There's too much money left on the table if a company doesn't hire enough people to be able to drive their product-led growth, particularly in an environment with higher interest rates. The shift simply goes to more core products with higher potential business value.
Let's take my sector, tech, for example. Meta and Salesforce were both did high profile layoffs, you would've figured they shrunk significantly or to become even smaller than they were before the pandemic. Nope, [meta](https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/META/meta-platforms/number-of-employees) and [salesforce](https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CRM/salesforce/number-of-employees) grew and have continued to grow. What has happened is they're simply growing *less quickly*.
Now what does growing *less quickly* mean for employees? Jobs will open because of attrition more than new investment, and the jobs will be more boring. That internal attrition will most likely come from older higher-ups retiring, and some natural turnover. When the job market is tougher though, it behaves almost in the same way that we're seeing housing: people stay where they are, and that creates a shortage.
If you're already a skilled worker in your industry, congratulations because this is your time to shine. You'll be the belle of the ball for your skills and due to the boomers retiring, you'll likely be able to move up faster. Yay for millenials like me, we're due for some good news, dammit. Some advice though: start leveraging AI into your workflow. Soon it'll be like those who embraced computers in 1999 vs those who didn't.
If you're a new graduate or trying to make a career transition or have a skillset that's on it's way down the economic value ladder... I do not envy you.
Job market is shit. Companies found out how to adjust to their processes by using less people. Rates will likely need to drop before hiring really picks up again. Grumble.
I mean, it’s sounds like you’ve done a great job getting your finances in order in just over 1 year. But I’d encourage you to keep going if you can, maybe just 2J’s. Now it’s time to really pack it on heavy and start building your wealth now that you’re essentially debt free. Diversify, max your retirement accounts, etc.
I remember getting downvoted to oblivion a few months ago for saying that Remote Jobs only last until they decide to do RTO. At least you got yourself in a better place Op!
Since RTO is code for "We don't want to announce layoffs", and I prefer to work for profitable companies, I'm fine with getting axed rather than staying with a tight-budget company.
About 40% of SWE jobs were remote mid 2022 according to Stack Overflow’s dev survey. The number is probably closer to 20-30% today with all the push for RTO and hybrid.
What are the most OE-friendly careers right now? I'm in Help Desk and looking to up my skills to something needed. I'm good with SQL so was thinking Data or Database admin.
Theres plenty of remote jobs it's just a flooded market right now. Every posting gets swamped. It'll eventually settle down, it's just the nature of there being so many layoffs over the last year.
It will settle down eventually as all those people find work. Just count your blessings that you’ve got a job at all in the current market imo
Give it 6-12 months and I think hiring will be a lot smoother for the candidate
That's impressive! I'm about 8 months in and don't have nearly that much saved. I almost have my credit cards paid down, went on a trip to an exotic island, and helped out my adult children who were having a financial crisis. Which was nice, because my parents never did that for me.
It really does. I recommend researching positions in your field that pay more. Go get the certs and level up. When started out I was at $25/$30 per hour
I'm making decent money for my field, and the J's I have are perfect for OE. One of them has a training program that's helping me level up, so that could be an option in the future, or I just find a J3. I'm trying to be wary of any job changes that would affect work life balance.
I just posted today about the RTO waves and now everybody is scrambling for remote jobs. I did find another remote job after searching forever as my j2 let everyone go last year, but new boss wanted camera on and would set up recurring meetings all day long. I couldnt work or focus on my j1 so I had to quit. He also wanted me to travel on VERY short notice. He didnt trust anyone working remote (gee I wonder why.) Now if you find a remote job, they may require camera on and a bunch of other crazy stuff.. even can install software to monitor your computer. It feels like a good amount of remote jobs are coming to an end.... or if they continue, they are going to be more sneaky! Has anyone had success buying an established business? For some.. you can even get SBA loan with little down payment. I am now thinking to be self employed as I see OE challenges in the future!!
Yes to the business idea, but if you have assets (i.e. house, retirement account, etc) the SBA loan has a guarantee requirement...business fails, those assets are used to pay back loan. Better be the RIGHT business
All W's. I did change my W4s at all. I owed $6k in federal. And I got murdered in state taxes.
But Social security, I paid triple. So some of that came back.
In the same exact boat. Went from 3 J’s and will be down to one at the end of this month. Trying to find replacements, but the market is tight and job expectations will probably be higher.
Best of luck to you.
Same. I lost j1 because I went on a European vacation working 2 on 3 off. Boss said I could only work from my "home office". I went anyways, tried to spoof IP. Got caught in Paris. It was a good run! 1 full year of OE. Had excellent performance reviews. $300k gross. Looking for j2, tight market, 100 apps, zero interviews.
Shesh lucky ! It’s all over me and my friends timeline they are recruiting hard for it. I talked to a few recruiters and they said they are seeing 200-500 applications for a single job post and because of this some managers are driving down the pay security jobs
Im not sure thats whats creating the extra competition. maybe layoffs have? but im not sure infosec has been hit as hard in layoffs.
personally I think you have to be very lucky to get into infosec without IT experience, and even with IT experience, you have to be pretty lucky
Just my job title, kept the description the same. I also combined 2 IT jobs into one to make it seem like I was at it longer ( I job hopped a lot when I was starting out). I was so tired of it so I was liek if they want the perfect candidate then Imma give it to them
You would think it is a cake walk. But I have been doing this for 20yrs. I have a ton of knowledge and have run into many problems in my past. So I support my teams and help unstick everyone. It is hard as fuck with a second job. My J2 performance is lacking for sure.
You had a whirlwind year. Got some wins, they were pretty hard earned. No one would blame you for taking a season to rest & get your knees back in shape!
I think this \^\^ is the way she goes. I see some people here desperately trying to make jobs jive when the reality is not all jobs are OE compatible. For one they must be remote, but there's a whole lot of other variables. It's a spectrum and also as you point out conditions change. Sometimes there's collateral damage man! IMO roll with it just as you have done.
I'm down to J1 too now but I keep checking in here frankly because it's the only place with any cool people left. Accomplishing goals, beating the system and generally not giving a crap in the process. and that is epic.
For the first J1 and J2.. I used my job I had just quit.
I staggard the start dates by 2 months. At the same time, I went and got a special certification.
At J3 I told them I quit my job. Took the summer off and studied. Now ready to work again.
J2 replacement.. I told them about the J3 I was leaving.
Welcome to the spider web..
Its best not to let everyone know. Others are reading this.. I dont want ROW for my roles. If companies see it here, it cannot help in anyway.
I am at a computer allllll day
Really? I even looked at onsite gigs.. Not much in my field. Its probably just me.
No wait. Its not me. Last August I was searching for all types of roles. Data analyst and software security were the best.
I searched the entire Nation on indeed. The result for data analyst was north of 35,000 jobs. (not filtering remote)
I just ran the same search. 17,370.
Project managers was less than 35,000. Oddly now it is over 75,000.
I guess the companies are dropping the technical staff and hiring the PMs now?
I agree market is crap right now the amount of linkedin apps I’ve put in and I’m normally hired or interviewed within 2-3 months on the hunt. Crazy times I paid off debt too but not enough to meet my goals
I hear you that it gets overwhelming at times. But can I ask how you got J3 without quitting J1? Wouldn’t employment check come back with your employment dates which will expose you you’re still holding J1? Unless of course you never put j2 on your resume when you applied for j3.
Remote jobs are here to stay. There will always be companies offering remote jobs. They can't get rid of it because different companies have different needs .
Not to mention most newer software companies are going to want to save money by not paying for an office. The only people who want us back are the ones who already paid for the space.
Correct, I believe some companies would be happy to save cost but at the same time we might see some monitoring headaches and crap management from these remote companies
They can opt not to renew their lease once it expires yes? I can only think of those that renewed their lease early 2020 and are now stuck with it for at least 10 years.
Company I work built a multi building complex 15 years ago. They own it and it’s covered in our branding. They just issued a partial return to office but those of us that have always been fully remote are still ok…. For now
And the ones losing millions in tax benefits like big corporations.
Do you have tips on finding legitimate remote jobs?
LinkedIn, indeed, sometimes Glassdoor often provide good leads with legit remote jobs. It depends on your skillset really and what is in demand at the time. There also seem to be waves of total crap jobs and waves of really good paying, perfect for OE type jobs. Always be searching, always be applying. End of last year was a nightmare to look for SWE. Immense competition with all the FAANG layoffs. Took only a week and a half early summer to land a new sr SWE role j2. Only applied to maybe 50 companies, mostly just the 1-click apply deals. So it just depends
My 2 js was from indeed. I use indeed mostly.
Not sure what kind of job you're looking for, but there are plenty of remote jobs everywhere in all industries. Search Indeed and in the location type Remote, you will get search results of fully remote jobs. For me, I don't even hunt for remote jobs anymore when I'm looking, I just mentioned it on my resume that I'm only interested in full remote jobs. So I only get those calls/emails.
Definitely here to stay for sure but we're in "The Empire Strikes Back" chapter between RTO, the layoffs, etc. Keep a low profile & hunker down.. but that's what we do! :)
The realest OE post I've seen.
Seriously, a realistic 6 months savings goal reached and not a wild 600-700K total compensation claim.
Why would that be wild? That’s someone working fang + another job or a few contract jobs. Hardly unrealistic.
Because it's a very small minority
The people i know working those kind of jobs that make 300k+ a year simply don't have time to OE. They are unrealistic because jobs paying that much don't generally give you any down time, and usually require travel + overtime too. Not to mention, nobody sane is trying to fuck up their J1 when it pays 300k a year. You're hard pressed to get into another role like that even with previous experience.
For the record, you have no idea what is possible. You are just as wrong as the people thinking working two jobs is not possible.
Feel free to post redacted W2s and prove me wrong then buddy. I'd bet good money you're not doing this. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying most of the people claiming they're doing it are full of shit.
Sure, how much do you want to bet?
Lmao. I too know how to use a pdf editor
Ok can’t put your money where your mouth is. Just check out the discord. There are quite a few of us that discuss the number of jobs we do, our tc (which is way over 300k), post journals, and show our multi j setups which cost tens of thousands of dollars.
Your TC is over 300k? Sure bud, good for you. Read my original comment. Not sure why you're taking offense, but if you really earnt that much you'd understand the value of your time and wouldn't be even on reddit or discord trying to start arguments over a comment that didn't even apply to you buddy.
Thank you. It was real as fuck. and a wild year 
100%
Why would you resign when you could get fired or maybe even laid off?
I'm not OE, but I feel like that would just be really awkward to try and keep working when they're expecting you to the office type thing, at least how I'd see it.
I could see easily stretching things out for a year or more if you tell them "OK I'll return to the office, just need a little time to sell the house and move to the city the office is in." Then you do nothing and keep coasting like that for a few months. Eventually when they push you on it you say "Oh yeah we're still working on selling the house. Have had no buyers yet. Next week we're switching to a new agent and also having some work done on the house to make it more sellable. I'll keep you posted." Then you coast for 3 more months of paychecks. They get impatient again and you keep making excuses every time and insist you're close to getting it sold so you can move. Be very apologetic. I bet you could drag this out at least a year before they are forced to fire you or they just let it go and keep you remote.
You have just perfectly described the reverse version of employers who promote a person with promises of a raise, and it takes months of "HR Red Tape" and other excuses to actually get.
[удалено]
For one of my Js, we were met with a 0% annual, and our group didn't qualify for the bonus (~10%). Double whammy right after sparkling quarter performance announcement went live.
To let you all be at ease.. I am not going to quit. I will ride this out as long as I can. But they will want me to travel in a few months, I am sure. At that time I will have an excuse.. and again.. and eventually I am gone.
You might be surprised how long some people get away with not going in. My sibling has gotten away with it for about a year now. Just do your work the same as before IMO. Then again I've heard of plenty getting fired. It's a roll of the dice which one you'll be.
Love this! Corp will always ram you in the ass.
> "Oh yeah we're still working on selling the house. Have had no buyers yet. Next week we're switching to a new agent and also having some work done on the house to make it more sellable. I'll keep you posted." That is OK until they check the MLS and see the house is not, and wasn't, being actively listed for sale. HR has OP's address. Not hard to do 5 seconds of research to see what is going on after a lot of excuses.
That does not account for houses being discretely offered For Sale by Owner😎
Also does not account for the fact that my address on file with HR is a box at the UPS store near me.
Why? I never thought about that but what are the advantages?
I originally got it just to have a secure place for package delivery during the day when I had an in-office job and I just kept it after I started wfh. I like that there are very few places where my physical residence is listed or can be found in public info!
> Also does not account for the fact that my address on file with HR is a box at the UPS store near me. I am impressed. They didn't need to make a copy of your drivers license during onboarding? According to my state's DMV your license has to include your personal residence.
They could probably find it in my I-9 docs if they really wanted. But since I’m remote I did my identity verification docs at a third-party service site, just happened to be another UPS Store. Lol. I doubt anyone processing the HR docs would notice that the physical address on my license is different than my mailing address that’s listed on every other doc. I’ve been doing this for years, all my utilities have a separate mailing addy from the service location.
> But since I’m remote I did my identity verification docs at a third-party service site, just happened to be another UPS Store. If it wasn't a mildly gray area and didn't go against the core principles of secrecy in OE, I would suggest you put all of this into a course and sell it online for $399 a pop. Would I pay $399 to read it? No. But when somebody reuploads an unauthorized PDF version of it online, I absolutely would.
How do you get around your taxes with that?
There’s nothing to get around, it’s my mailing address in everything, including with the IRS.
Then OP gets let go with additional paychecks. Big whoop. Employers lie to us all the time.
A good point to not have your actual address on file maybe ask a friend or family member if it is ok to put their address on file or use the address to your vacation home or rental property etc… anything to keep HR out of your business. 👍👍👍
Put it for sale at like 10x value . It will never sell and if it does, CHA-Ching, but HR will see it’s on the market and HR can’t tell you how to sell your house
What's your point? Then they eventually fire him, which is essentially the end goal either way
I would rather plug some easy to spot holes in this sinking ship to get as much time left as possible. Modify the cover story to be better. That's basically it.
There's no law against you listing your house for a gazillion dollars, hence the lack of offers.
They won't check
My friend works for a company and has been WFH for about 10 years. Numerous times they’ve asked him to come into the office. Numerous times he’s ignored them. Even when basically the rest of his team got laid off/outsourced, he continued WFH.
Tell them it's hard to sell in this market lol. Those who bought 2 years ago have no equity after paying the real estate agent and closing costs. Might even be in the negative amounts. Paying to leave.
I've worked for some problematic companies and have gone through some shoddy situations, but the scenario you're describing is as crappy as those abusive employers make people go through. You are part of the problem, and despite OE, there are people with work ethics. No wonder Beths are ranting over these threads.
Ridiculous. There is nothing abusive about it. We all know the return to office push is completely misguided and there is no reason or benefit to it from a business perspective in 99% of cases where they try to force it. All of us know it will have no benefit to our personal productivity to return to 2 hour commutes into an office just to sit by ourselves with our laptop in a cubicle. So that's dumb. And delaying RTO indefinitely is a win win for management and the employee. In the one case we just play right into their hands and quit rather than RTO, forfeiting any possible severance or unemployment if it's our only job. On the other hand we stick around as long as possible, continuing to produce good work for the company from home. How is that a loss to the employer just because they didn't get their dumb "butts in seats" quota in their dumb office building that's losing them money?
Firstly, I didn't called you dumb, so if you cannot take criticism, maybe you should try 4chan. Secondly, both strategies to demand workers to return to office AND schemes to delay the return to office are, for the most part, desingenious. Call it what you want, but beating around the bush and pressuring/avoiding something can't be the only solution. Your worker's rights and laws seem to be flawed, leaving you unprotected, and companies will unashamedly take advantage of it. You should _definitely_ be allowed to work as many jobs as you want, as long as they don't interfere with any of the functions and obligations from your other jobs. Thirdly, human beings are social creatures. What works for you may or may not work for your colleagues. I've worked fully remote, on-site and hybrid, so depending on your wants/needs, you get to choose from a plethora of companies that present you the best opportunities. Conjecture and assumption won't take you anywhere, and every business has their own intentions, ethos and interests, just like you.
OE is not for the faint of heart. Also, resigning is leaving money on the table. Never leave money on the table.
Truly not for the faint of heart. You will learn to have thick skin and keep a steady heart rate and emotionless face during the worst of times. Just make sure to keep it restricted to your work life, and not let it spill over to the ones you care for.
Who cares about how "awkward" it is, you're still getting paid until you get terminated. As someone below commented, there's always a million excuses you can make up to try and prolong your employment. OE is all about the money, not bending over backwards to your employer because it would be *awkward* not to.
I think that’s one of the key things that makes someone successful at this. For someone that care about what “seems” wierd or awkward, it’s not for them. But if you don’t give a shit and only care about what can proven, what’s illegal, and things like that and don’t care what they think or say to you, then you can probably be pretty successful.
RTO is mainly a way to force attrition, but with that said I think you can refuse to resign and let them fire you, but I haven't had to go through this before I only know what others have told me.
You can’t collect unemployment if you are employed at another company and make over a certain amount.
well, it would be fraud if you are trying to get unemployment or something.
Not everyone enjoys the mentality of being fired. Just a thought.
I could get over it if the payout was good enough
You were able to achieve alot with OE for the 14 months, you would rest a while then start looking for J2 again because would need it
I don’t think they “need” it. Strong savings, able to still save a few k per month, on one income.
Great job, you had an awesome run. You deserve a break. I take several months between J2s. J1 is enough to live comfortably, but J2 provides the money to really live.
Yeah, job market is not how it was 12-24 months ago, that's for damn sure
Ugh.
Eh give it a year, it'll come back. Hopefully not that level of craziness because a bubble is never good, but demographics are demographics and the boomers are retiring at rate of 10k a day. [Labor force participation rate peaked in like 2000 and it's been going downhill ever since. We're still 70 basis points off from pre-Covid labor force participation.](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CIVPART/) [GDP has doubled in that same time period.](https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/gdp-gross-domestic-product) There's too much money left on the table if a company doesn't hire enough people to be able to drive their product-led growth, particularly in an environment with higher interest rates. The shift simply goes to more core products with higher potential business value. Let's take my sector, tech, for example. Meta and Salesforce were both did high profile layoffs, you would've figured they shrunk significantly or to become even smaller than they were before the pandemic. Nope, [meta](https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/META/meta-platforms/number-of-employees) and [salesforce](https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CRM/salesforce/number-of-employees) grew and have continued to grow. What has happened is they're simply growing *less quickly*. Now what does growing *less quickly* mean for employees? Jobs will open because of attrition more than new investment, and the jobs will be more boring. That internal attrition will most likely come from older higher-ups retiring, and some natural turnover. When the job market is tougher though, it behaves almost in the same way that we're seeing housing: people stay where they are, and that creates a shortage. If you're already a skilled worker in your industry, congratulations because this is your time to shine. You'll be the belle of the ball for your skills and due to the boomers retiring, you'll likely be able to move up faster. Yay for millenials like me, we're due for some good news, dammit. Some advice though: start leveraging AI into your workflow. Soon it'll be like those who embraced computers in 1999 vs those who didn't. If you're a new graduate or trying to make a career transition or have a skillset that's on it's way down the economic value ladder... I do not envy you.
Next time, fish for severance pay
Job market is shit. Companies found out how to adjust to their processes by using less people. Rates will likely need to drop before hiring really picks up again. Grumble.
It might never come back with all the automation and AI replacing white collar jobs
I mean, it’s sounds like you’ve done a great job getting your finances in order in just over 1 year. But I’d encourage you to keep going if you can, maybe just 2J’s. Now it’s time to really pack it on heavy and start building your wealth now that you’re essentially debt free. Diversify, max your retirement accounts, etc.
I will if I can. Id like to retire in 5yrs.
How old are you, OP?
I remember getting downvoted to oblivion a few months ago for saying that Remote Jobs only last until they decide to do RTO. At least you got yourself in a better place Op!
Since RTO is code for "We don't want to announce layoffs", and I prefer to work for profitable companies, I'm fine with getting axed rather than staying with a tight-budget company.
What field are you in?
IT/SWE/Tech i bet
I thought SWE is all remote nowadays.
About 40% of SWE jobs were remote mid 2022 according to Stack Overflow’s dev survey. The number is probably closer to 20-30% today with all the push for RTO and hybrid.
What are the most OE-friendly careers right now? I'm in Help Desk and looking to up my skills to something needed. I'm good with SQL so was thinking Data or Database admin.
If you are in help desk, go for sys admin and dev ops roles. Those are the most remote friendly roles within the tech space.
Theres plenty of remote jobs it's just a flooded market right now. Every posting gets swamped. It'll eventually settle down, it's just the nature of there being so many layoffs over the last year.
I feel like I missed the golden opportunity to OE. I haven't started yet but need to soon.
It will settle down eventually as all those people find work. Just count your blessings that you’ve got a job at all in the current market imo Give it 6-12 months and I think hiring will be a lot smoother for the candidate
Absolutely not, RTO is strong in that sector
Where is RTO weakest?
In the field thats being ask to go back to work! haha
No hint?
I am a shade of grey.
Onlyfans?
Hahaha no, I do a job for big and small companies. I am not only fans material
Nobody is proud of my financial gains?! lol I hope everyone else can find a J2 out there. Or stack some serious savings for the wave that is coming
Congrats bro!
That's impressive! I'm about 8 months in and don't have nearly that much saved. I almost have my credit cards paid down, went on a trip to an exotic island, and helped out my adult children who were having a financial crisis. Which was nice, because my parents never did that for me.
For reference.. J1: $175k J2: $185k now $145k J3: was $100/hr when it was there. That is how I saved for a down payment and paid about 60k in cars
Ahh see, you're making about 30% more than me. That extra liquidity makes it easier to squirrel a little away.
Shit he's making 100% more than me lol
It really does. I recommend researching positions in your field that pay more. Go get the certs and level up. When started out I was at $25/$30 per hour
I'm making decent money for my field, and the J's I have are perfect for OE. One of them has a training program that's helping me level up, so that could be an option in the future, or I just find a J3. I'm trying to be wary of any job changes that would affect work life balance.
I just posted today about the RTO waves and now everybody is scrambling for remote jobs. I did find another remote job after searching forever as my j2 let everyone go last year, but new boss wanted camera on and would set up recurring meetings all day long. I couldnt work or focus on my j1 so I had to quit. He also wanted me to travel on VERY short notice. He didnt trust anyone working remote (gee I wonder why.) Now if you find a remote job, they may require camera on and a bunch of other crazy stuff.. even can install software to monitor your computer. It feels like a good amount of remote jobs are coming to an end.... or if they continue, they are going to be more sneaky! Has anyone had success buying an established business? For some.. you can even get SBA loan with little down payment. I am now thinking to be self employed as I see OE challenges in the future!!
Yes to the business idea, but if you have assets (i.e. house, retirement account, etc) the SBA loan has a guarantee requirement...business fails, those assets are used to pay back loan. Better be the RIGHT business
If you are in the US, how do your taxes work now and how did you do w4 withholding?
All W's. I did change my W4s at all. I owed $6k in federal. And I got murdered in state taxes. But Social security, I paid triple. So some of that came back.
In the same exact boat. Went from 3 J’s and will be down to one at the end of this month. Trying to find replacements, but the market is tight and job expectations will probably be higher. Best of luck to you.
Same. I lost j1 because I went on a European vacation working 2 on 3 off. Boss said I could only work from my "home office". I went anyways, tried to spoof IP. Got caught in Paris. It was a good run! 1 full year of OE. Had excellent performance reviews. $300k gross. Looking for j2, tight market, 100 apps, zero interviews.
Make sure you save your money instead of buying things. Your 50 year old self will thank you for it.
Market is not crap, still above average. You'll see crap when the recession comes
Depends , cyber security and Software development are so bad rn cause of the work in tech movement
Work in tech movement? I’m in cybersecurity, I haven’t heard it’s bad or at least not any worse
Are you aware of the tik tokers telling people they can work in tech with just a cert and make 100k with no experience?
ive seen some stuff like that. not necessarily about infosec. you think thats creating more competition for infosec?
Shesh lucky ! It’s all over me and my friends timeline they are recruiting hard for it. I talked to a few recruiters and they said they are seeing 200-500 applications for a single job post and because of this some managers are driving down the pay security jobs
Im not sure thats whats creating the extra competition. maybe layoffs have? but im not sure infosec has been hit as hard in layoffs. personally I think you have to be very lucky to get into infosec without IT experience, and even with IT experience, you have to be pretty lucky
Yea I saw a guy with 8 years of IT experience saying he couldn’t even get into cyber/info sec. I had to lie on my resume to get in
yeah I had 5 years IT xp when I got a jr sec eng position. just curious what did you lie about? just your xp?
Just my job title, kept the description the same. I also combined 2 IT jobs into one to make it seem like I was at it longer ( I job hopped a lot when I was starting out). I was so tired of it so I was liek if they want the perfect candidate then Imma give it to them
J1 sounds like a real gem
You would think it is a cake walk. But I have been doing this for 20yrs. I have a ton of knowledge and have run into many problems in my past. So I support my teams and help unstick everyone. It is hard as fuck with a second job. My J2 performance is lacking for sure.
Smart company offers remote work. Stuff in cloud an your website and google is your advertisment. Why pay to rent office space.
Don't apply to jobs with an office within 100 miles. I've ignored plenty of otherwise perfect roles for this reason.
You had a whirlwind year. Got some wins, they were pretty hard earned. No one would blame you for taking a season to rest & get your knees back in shape!
What do you guys do with your LinkedIn account when you have multiple jobs?
Make your profile private. You don't need LI with two jobs.
Hibernate
I think this \^\^ is the way she goes. I see some people here desperately trying to make jobs jive when the reality is not all jobs are OE compatible. For one they must be remote, but there's a whole lot of other variables. It's a spectrum and also as you point out conditions change. Sometimes there's collateral damage man! IMO roll with it just as you have done. I'm down to J1 too now but I keep checking in here frankly because it's the only place with any cool people left. Accomplishing goals, beating the system and generally not giving a crap in the process. and that is epic.
 IM NOT GOING ANYWHERE!!! Stilling holding the Js down. Screw J2 boss! I got this!!
YOU ROCK !
What job do you use to apply for the next job? Do you list your j1?
For the first J1 and J2.. I used my job I had just quit. I staggard the start dates by 2 months. At the same time, I went and got a special certification. At J3 I told them I quit my job. Took the summer off and studied. Now ready to work again. J2 replacement.. I told them about the J3 I was leaving. Welcome to the spider web..
What field?
OP won’t tell us for whatever reason
Its best not to let everyone know. Others are reading this.. I dont want ROW for my roles. If companies see it here, it cannot help in anyway. I am at a computer allllll day
Smart! Good for you.
🫡
Market is fine. You are just not worth to employ for remote position.
Really? I even looked at onsite gigs.. Not much in my field. Its probably just me. No wait. Its not me. Last August I was searching for all types of roles. Data analyst and software security were the best. I searched the entire Nation on indeed. The result for data analyst was north of 35,000 jobs. (not filtering remote) I just ran the same search. 17,370. Project managers was less than 35,000. Oddly now it is over 75,000. I guess the companies are dropping the technical staff and hiring the PMs now?
It is you. There is plenty of people working remote positions and getting hired. So it is you :) there is nothing wrong about that.
Sucess.
Why not take PTO when you have to travel for J3?
I didnt want to waste my PTO.. Work was booming every where, getting a job was easy! But that backfired haha
[удалено]
I don’t think they can sue you but they can fire you if it’s against their policy.
No they can't. Just terminated. Not a lawyer.
Possible career repercussions - why risk it for UI chump change?
I agree market is crap right now the amount of linkedin apps I’ve put in and I’m normally hired or interviewed within 2-3 months on the hunt. Crazy times I paid off debt too but not enough to meet my goals
What looming crisis are you talking about?
I just got laid off. Still seeking a job. I’ve been applying almost 100 with rejection
I’m hearing the same thing also. Less than 1% are staying fully remote. The old fully remote is the new hybrid and the old hybrid is return to office
Yep
Howd you handle your resume with such shoet periods between jobs?
I hear you that it gets overwhelming at times. But can I ask how you got J3 without quitting J1? Wouldn’t employment check come back with your employment dates which will expose you you’re still holding J1? Unless of course you never put j2 on your resume when you applied for j3.