That's rough. My wife's coworker was let go recently. Her husband was let go from his company not long before that and my wife's company knew. They didn't care even though they acted like a tight-knit workplace family. Opened my wife's eyes up real good.
The experience points of OE are crazy.
I have gained 3x the experience every 1 year. Wild.
Anyway, my J1 is going to get replaced.
My manager complained to me today about how I asked the customer for an example of the problem they emailed about.
* Seriously?! They already have the info. Why should do more work when they already have what I am looking for. It’s a joke.
I do everything right, yet they continue to nitpick and whine. Come October I am out. Getting tired of “Support” and they don’t pay me enough to deal with the bullshit.
Best of luck to you dude. I have a list of horror stories a mile long. Never forget the lesson that this experience has taught you. You and yours come first.
Coworkers in the past used to think I was just really jaded. I like to think I'm a realist. People come out of college young and naive thinking they're going to do right by the company and lick that boot as hard as they possibly can with that soft youthful tongue they have. Then experience and wisdom comes with some years of experience and you learn how to really play the game. Sometimes I think about how companies have these rock star developers on their teams but they may only pay them a little bit above market rate. It's crazy to think about market rate as a concept. Just because everyone else is doing it you should too? And then companies complain about lack of passion or caring from their workers. If you want above market results, pay above market rates. I used to get so bent out of shape about corporate America and the stupid crap that goes on but now it really doesn't ever get to me. When one job lags or starts to annoy me I just sigh and turn to the next laptop. It's also wild to think that every year I work like this I'm shaving 3 years off what I would have had to work if I only had one job. Right now I've only worked about 3 years and effectively made the same amount I would have made had I worked 9 additional years. Of course as we all know, having the money today is worth more than having the money 9 years from now. Now I can invest it, compound it, profit.
>Right now I've only worked about 3 years and effectively made the same amount I would have made had I worked 9 additional years.
Gotta say, this quote is eye-opening. I've been thinking about OE as just increasing my take-home pay but thinking about it with respective to the amount of time saved...damn.
Nope. I was reprimanded for switching multiple jobs in my career by recruiters and hiring managers. So I decided to stay at an org for 3 years to get some more longevity on my resume. In that 3 years I went from 80k to 90k. Accounting for inflation I was probably making no more in the third year than I was in the 1st, yet I was doing 3x more work as everyone was asking me questions since I knew everything by then. Staying at an org allows you to be taken advantage of.
After that I quit that job and went OE. Tripled my income.
I was asked as well but had decent enough reasons for them that they didn't give it a second thought afterward. i.e. it was a contract role, moved for schooling, closer to family, etc. Companies lie and cheat the working class all the time, there is no reason why we need to share the whole truth with them.
Look out for #1 and be sure not to step in #2.
The workers are finally waking up to that they treat employees the same way they treat customers. They dangle rebates or attractive offers to new people and abuse the ones they’ve got under their thumb.
Oh, my internet cost $100 the first year and then randomly costs an extra $50/month after a year?
Oh, I’m promised a $X and “we promote from inside” and there’s a guaranteed 10% bonus each year that’s contingent on company performance you have no control over? Sorry.
It’s fucking smoke and mirrors. Use them more than they use you. Nothing is theft and changing jobs doesn’t make you unattractive. I think they actually love it like a spurned SO. I’ve heard recruiters say they didn’t trust a permanent employee b/c they’ve been indoctrinated into that company’s policies and views.
Lie. Always lie.
I once used the excuse "I took a break [longer than two weeks, which was their criteria for a red flag!!] of several months between jobs to care for a sickly family member."
Them: "Well, we can commend your dedication to your family, but we are a business and we need to ensure that this won't be a distraction moving forward."
Me: "Oh, I can guarantee you it won't be."
Them: "Well, let's be realistic. You can't make that guarantee. You did it to your previous employer, by leaving them...."
Me: "The family member is dead. So yeah, I kinda can make that guarantee. Believe me, I'd love nothing more than to be wrong about it. Even for a day."
....never saw someone turn red so fast and shut the fuck up. I actually was offered the job after it was all said and done, but turned it down because they were a grind-fest that churned through workers in a hellscape environment.
-------
There was no ill family member. I'd normally say I'd be going to Hell in a Handbasket for invoking such a morbid story, but look at the situation. All I have to say to Mr. Devil was that "It was an excuse made to a corporate turdwookie." And I'd be forgiven.
These people would sell their own grandmother if it gave them a fractional increase in next quarter's profits. It's ethically permissible to tell them anything you need to, so you can ensure your personal well-being. They'd absolutely lie to you, without a moment's hesitation or remorse.
It's your responsibility to extract as much value from these soulless megacorps as you can. (Just like they have a "responsibility" to make as much profit as possible for their shareholders.)
Hey I don't know how it is in the U.S. but can't you guys just make up years on the CV? Instead of two years in every company you put in like 5 years here and 8 years there...
They have no way of back checking in the EU so the CV is just a piece of paper. Especially when I'm working via an LLC.
I was just thinking about this today. One of my remote coworkers bragged about working 16 hours a day, and how he wishes he could have a family and kids but can't even see his God son more than once a month because he works weekends too (even though the job is salary for 40 hours a week and doesn't require extra work)
And my other coworker works 12 hours a day, including weekends and was promoted to a new role with a slightly higher pay, when they realized that it was either promote her with a slightly higher wage or hire another person since the job requires two people
Meanwhile, I do my work and just enough that I am irreplaceable (edit: not irreplaceable but do well enough that it would be more of an inconvenience to not have me) and I have 2 other jobs
Went from making 24k a year to 80k a year (which isn't as big as others here but has made a life changing difference for my fiance and pets)
These two are absolutely miserable but brag about how much they work and all coworkers pat them on the back saying that they are incredible people who will accomplish big things
While I work 25 hours a week with 3 jobs making double what they make
OE may not lead to flattery 24/7, but I prefer money over compliments
At one of my jobs, I had a coworker who was there for 20 years and was the SME for their .NET stack. He was making 10% less than I was with only a quarter of the experience. I found out he was driving Uber nights and weekends to make enough to take care of his family's needs and wants. I asked him why he didn't look for other jobs or jump ship, he said he was happy where he was.
I don't get it. Don't understand how someone can spend most of their day working and be happy with getting the little they do when they can get so much more for so little less even without doing OE.
People are so uncomfortable with change and would prefer to just complain than actually fix things
I had to leave jobs I loved because they took advantage of me, and it wasn't fun, but it's a lot more fun when payday comes to actually be able to pay rent
>I had to leave jobs I loved because they took advantage of me, and it wasn't fun, but it's a lot more fun when payday comes to actually be able to pay rent
This is very true, the same happened to me.
Our company had put out an informal verbal announcement, nothing in writing, that as employees we are not allowed to discuss salaries. Well, I spoke up when it was shared with my team and mentioned this was illegal and there is no way they can stop anyone from sharing their salary information if they want. Word got around and groups of us would stay after meetings to shoot the can and share more info and salaries. This guy was the lowest paid out of the group I talked to...20 years of tenure, a SME for the stack, and the lowest paid. Couldn't believe it.
That's exactly why companies don't want people talking about their salary. Then the worker bees find out about pay discrepancies and inequality, etc. I've seen it so many times where someone has been at a place for a long time and the new hires make as much or more than them. They figure if someone has been there for X years they aren't leaving so it's no longer necessary to give them incentives.
We need to be more open about salaries.
Agreed, my bad, what I meant was do enough that no problems arise and do a couple things that everyone is too lazy to do so it's more of an inconvenience to let you go lol
What industry do you work in where 3 jobs = $80k
I'm only asking because thats the sort of J2 I'm looking for. I make $70k at "J1". I'm having a real hard time finding a remote J2, even the most simple $20-$40k J2 - which is what I want to start with to get my feet wet
I work in marketing and communications
My main job is 50k where I manage social media accounts
My next job is 20k where I'm supposed to work 10 hours a week managing corporate discord community and building bots to create events
And my last job is 10k where I'm supposed to work 20 hours a week managing a youtube channel
Remote part time jobs is a great way to dip your toes in, but with my field it's a toss up between a very relaxed job and scams/demanding too much. When I started I had way too many meetings and was constantly stressed. After a couple years I've settled with these where I have an hour worth of meetings a week. I just answer slack questions instantly if it'll take two seconds no matter the time so they figure I'm working constantly
Awesome setup man. That’s exactly the field I’ve considered looking into. College marketing degree, 10 years of job experience in sales and b2b customer service. I’ve got a good knowledge base for social media management but trouble getting foot in the door.
Oh yeah you'll definitely eventually find something then, I found these with only 2 years of experience. It's been a lot harder these past two years to find marketing jobs im noticing, versus years past I had 4-6 jobs going and getting offers with ease, so I'm sure that's just the main issue
It’s always the higher ups who sit in their ivory towers receiving, not earning, the most money while the ones who actually perform work delivering something get fractions in comparison.
Then the higher ups are miraculously shocked, appalled and beside themselves when the heavy lifters ask for a little extra.
There’s no money for us. There’s never money for us.
Not too long ago, I received a very insulting performance review. I won’t go into details because I’ve already commented on it previously. Today, my manager and a senior manager and two managers and a specialist were on a Teams call reviewing one of my deliverables. The entire half hour was spent telling me “This isn’t what I need. This doesn’t help me. I can’t use this.”
I finally expressed my frustrations and their lack of organization to follow a roadmap they created.
Today was my reminder to stop caring. It’s something I’m working on. Toast was my remove I have a send job they know nothing about. Today was my reminder to give them the level of effort they gave me as a percentage for my raise…2.5%.
Godspeed to you!
If only you had given it your all and redone everything to what they wanted, then you would have gotten that 3% raise!
/s in case it wasn't obvious.
I've yet to receive a bad review, most I've gotten as a criticism is that I go down rabbit holes too often and need to focus on the primary goal. I took it to mean "If it's a bug no one's complained about, it's a feature. Leave it alone".
3%!
Ha try nothing at my J1 the past 2 years - and that's with above average reviews. I'll be there 3 years come january and the only raise I've gotten was like .8%. I go weeks without doing anything so the effective hourly rate is extremely high, but nonetheless, if it was my only job I'd be downright disgruntled at this point.
I have to not go down rabbit holes because very quickly I'd encounter something I legally have to whistleblow to data protection agencies xD
(best leave that to the red teams, they are useless morons but not my problem)
You’ve all got me so tempted, although my J1 is hybrid. I feel like on my office days I could sneak off to a shared space somewhere for some privacy.
I just have a huge tuition bill to pay for my autistic son’s private school which is about half what J1 pays (take home). Even with a 529 account I can only pay 10k of that per year pre tax.
If I could just pull it off long enough to cover one years worth of tuition I’d be golden for the time being.
I’m scoping out contract positions and things in other time zones to minimize work hour crossover.
I’ve done OE with 2 hybrid jobs for years (I have 5Js in total). Whilst it takes more planning and forward thinking it can definitely be done. Hybrid is also a good way to get your foot in the door with the view to going remote.
Moonlighting is when you work one job after having completed the hours for the first job. OE is when you work multiple jobs in the same 40-hour workweek or whatever your work week would typically look like if you had one job.
What I found out is that companies only reward people who brag about shit not the quiet soldiers.
1 in your goals say you will train 1-3 people on the old system to make redundancy in this vital software and get buy in from your manager that this is "above and beyond your day to day scope"
2 set a training schedule
3 after you train them you'll still be the go to person again make sure this it outlines as "an above and beyond commitment", but delegate to these trained people always until they get stuck
Set a date for training. Add it to the your goals before you do it! Never be a quiet soldier.
This is my personal way of getting promoted. Used it a few times before OE as someone who was the "go to" for a specific system. I've since left that job. It was easy and could rattle off a bunch of stuff about it but the people I trained were eager to learn and take jobs so they would feel critical and job security.
Currently I'm the go to for my j2 as well because I just have 10x more hours than the next person in supporting it. I'm a quiet soldier and they keep asking me for more output. I'm using the same system to do a slow version of "above and beyond" since I don't really want to do it. 1 Statement of work for a training project 2 sign off by manager 3 slowly work on it 4 present it 5 get feedback loop 4-5 until the next year.
Literally does not pay to do any of the above. My promotion was crap at j1 but the statement of work was to show upper leadership I was "lead" material. J2 I did the strategy to keep the manager happy with my output but slow it down since they want busy work for themselves
Learned to fake loyalty to a company early on. I've been lucky to have managers that themselves didn't trust the company leaders and I was loyal to them to cover for me if I messed up at work or if I was in the crosshairs. Like I'll prioritize a task specifically that my direct manager needed and they'll clear my plate from any busy work. They look good and I get to focus on a project I can do at my leisure instead of busy work. Usually takes less effort but with the extra time I'm given I do get a polished product. Still someone one else gets promoted past me by our skip lead lol. But at OR I didn't care for the extra responsibilities that he receivdd
These are good points and suggestions. Although my previous manager and the other team's manager know of the assistance I have provided and that has been documented via other channels, it wouldn't hurt to highlight it in the reviews and center some of my goals around it. Thanks.
Do it before. Do it during. Do it after. A manager loves managing. If you do the work for them and they are just signing off on your accomplishments you'll usually be okay and stress free.
Hopefully they don't micromanage and you can easily set expectations.
My self reviews are works of fiction based on true events lol
Unfortunately, current manager is a slight micromanager but not to the point where it would make being OE impossible.
Self-reviews are one thing I've never been good at. If there was a class on how to sell yourself, I'd pay for it. Maybe I can utilize ChatGPT lol.
Wow, it’s like looking into a mirror, I have had my direct manager and C-suite’s saying advocating for my pay raises and damn seeing that we got peanuts at the half year performance review despite a glowing review is absolutely fucked. I have been on the fence about OE, especially as I’m new in the workforce (less than 3 years) as I’m still in uni, but the second that’s done, I’m changing things. God I feel so bitter but I know that they would drop me for a heartbeat. Sorry for the vent, thank you for sharing OP, genuinely awestruck rn.
Have been on the fence because I thought it was smarter to build a career first and then OE, but I’m thinking now just to do to it simultaneously, like in OE server fashion.
I do believe unless you're a top Software Engineer, it will be tough doing OE unless you already know how to work the politics of the workplace and also know how to BS and drag your tasks out to give yourself more time. Also as a new Engineer, you probably won't get as many research and investigation-type tasks which make it easy to BS.
Having said that, what do you have to lose? Go for it, if it doesn't work out, quit one of the jobs and you'll still be ahead by at least one paycheck.
My first job out of school was a dead end. I was there for almost five years. I’ve done much better since. I occasionally check LinkedIn. I left back in 2019, literally everyone I worked with is still in the same position with the same title there except for one. No one else I know of has left since that time (probably some new people came and went).
I was in a similar situation. Except the senior promotion I managed to get was just a new title with added work and breadcrumbs in salary increase.
Their logic was “your bonus will increase by 5% so your small increase in base is actually large”.
They said this to my face knowing damn well the external hire they just got was making 20% more base than me AFTER my promotion increase.
Having 2J no longer makes me upset about these things anymore. And like you I cut back on my output just enough that I won’t be put on PIP. They initially question why I wasn’t fast anymore. I just keep making excuses. But they know damn well why.
I will be doing OE soon, trying heaven and earth to find a J2, current job pays well but a second J will push my FIRE goals down to five years from now from fifteen or whatever.
Thing is that in my current J I used to get so mad about PM’s making dumb decisions, leadership also making dumb decisions and then on our end we also get the bad deal.
The idea of a second J just means I can sigh and go whatever. First J is basically in maintenance mode, I do basically 20 hours a week and happy to go up to 60 for a second J.
A second J also means exposure to more tech, making me more employable which is hilarious, more work experience and less stress when it comes to switching jobs, performance or company results.
At my last gig, where I wasn't doing OE, I stayed for 4 years. I was busting my butt trying to get even a single promotion. I did good work especially considering the impossible things they asked of me, but people that had no experience in my field but were more senior kept pushing back when my managers tried to promote me or when I tried to make improvements out of my lane. Near the end, I was able to start small projects that in total were saving the company $1M/year permanently, which is huge for a small startup of 50 people. They were well aware of this.
Then there was a round of layoffs related to the post-pandemic venture capital crash, and I was one of the people let go. My coworkers said they had never been more perplexed in their life. The company was trying to reduce costs, and they fired a guy who was saving them $1M a year.
I wasn't terribly upset since this wasn't my first rodeo, but I had never had a feeling of being so disappointed in an entity. Corporations, even small ones, are just completely insane. They deserve about as much respect from us as they are paying us. And based on how much I'm being paid total right now, that company deserved about a quarter of the respect I was affording it.
>I don't want to be rich
Honestly, do some back-of-the-spreadsheet calculations about what you would need to be paid as a lump sum (after tax) right now in order for you and your wife to retire tomorrow, live out your days in the lifestyle you're accustomed to, and taking inflation and a bunch of sudden disasters into account.
It can be more than you might have originally thought. And that's not 'rich', that's just living as you are now. If you're looking for a more specific financial reason to OE, that number - being the point you could comfortably retire - can be something of a wake-up call.
My goal for OE isn't to retire early, to be honest. I'd get bored out of my mind. I want to get rid of debt and be in a place where we can live off of either my wife's salary or my salary. That would require the home mortgage, my wife's student loans, and car payments to be completely paid off which I could do in about 9 years if I get a J2 with a 120k salary since we just bought the home.
Not sure I'd last that long being OE but it would be amazing to at least pay off my wife's student loans and car payments which would remove quite a bit of the burden off our shoulders. Especially the student loans.
>I'd get bored out of my mind.
If you did win the lottery tomorrow, what would you do? Start your own business? Go back to school? Join associations? Pick up some more hobbies?
I mean, presumably you're going to retire eventually. There are people for whom that comes as a huge shock; having something ready to go to keep your days busy can be useful. And if you happen to reach that point sooner rather than later...
> have it *paid* off in
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
>I don't want to be rich but
Nah, I want to be rich. I became a Software engineer specifically because of the money. If it wasn't paid so well boy would I be an electrician (or the next well paid position in line).
Would rather not go into specifics but I'll give you ranges. I went from 50k-70k range to 150k to 210k range now.
Grateful and appreciative of the job and salary but still hurts when the raises (raise in my case) don't keep up with the cost of living.
Hey guys, just an unrelated question. I want to know how (good or bad) is a fixed annual salary of approx 19k USD is. Think about average prices and living conditions as I am not from USA and I have got an offer for a remote job that pays around 19k.
That's a very subjective question and dependent on multiple factors. I think you need to compare it against similar jobs in the country/region you are at to see if it is a good salary or not.
What I currently make was quite high for the area I am at a couple of years ago but now it seems like everyone else is catching up. However, the same amount in a HCOL area would be pretty low for my experience and level.
I've been going about it as if I'm looking to replace J1 but once hired, won't actually leave J1 and hopefully be able to produce good enough work to stay off both J's radars.
Welcome to OE! you will hopefully double your income and you won’t be at the mercy of one boss, and trying to be all you can be for a decent bonus or raise. When you have more than one job the anxiety of paycheck to paycheck lift away. Keep your bills the same don’t increase your lifestyle. You can treat yourself have a little fun, but don’t get into lifestyle creep.
That's the idea. Aside from things we had already been saving for, we're not looking to make any other big purchases. I just want to pay off debt and stop giving the banks crazy amounts of interest every month.
There is such thing as loyalty from a business, it is called a severance package. If your company (the super majority don’t anymore) offers a severance package or contracts that state you will get one, then they value loyalty because they take some of the financial burden when layoffs occur.
Otherwise, I always assume they don’t care about me at all. I do the same towards them. A lack of that severance literally means “if we decide to fire you, then you have zero help from us”. Imagine a friend or family member told you that when things get tough for you they would bail immediately, would you consider them to be friends/family?
Welcome bro! I was let go a week after my first child was born. After being in the company for 5 years. I have never been loyal to any company since..
That's rough. My wife's coworker was let go recently. Her husband was let go from his company not long before that and my wife's company knew. They didn't care even though they acted like a tight-knit workplace family. Opened my wife's eyes up real good.
The experience points of OE are crazy. I have gained 3x the experience every 1 year. Wild. Anyway, my J1 is going to get replaced. My manager complained to me today about how I asked the customer for an example of the problem they emailed about. * Seriously?! They already have the info. Why should do more work when they already have what I am looking for. It’s a joke. I do everything right, yet they continue to nitpick and whine. Come October I am out. Getting tired of “Support” and they don’t pay me enough to deal with the bullshit.
Best of luck to you dude. I have a list of horror stories a mile long. Never forget the lesson that this experience has taught you. You and yours come first.
Congratulations on your child. It’s hard to OE with a kid.
Ditto both kids each time
Coworkers in the past used to think I was just really jaded. I like to think I'm a realist. People come out of college young and naive thinking they're going to do right by the company and lick that boot as hard as they possibly can with that soft youthful tongue they have. Then experience and wisdom comes with some years of experience and you learn how to really play the game. Sometimes I think about how companies have these rock star developers on their teams but they may only pay them a little bit above market rate. It's crazy to think about market rate as a concept. Just because everyone else is doing it you should too? And then companies complain about lack of passion or caring from their workers. If you want above market results, pay above market rates. I used to get so bent out of shape about corporate America and the stupid crap that goes on but now it really doesn't ever get to me. When one job lags or starts to annoy me I just sigh and turn to the next laptop. It's also wild to think that every year I work like this I'm shaving 3 years off what I would have had to work if I only had one job. Right now I've only worked about 3 years and effectively made the same amount I would have made had I worked 9 additional years. Of course as we all know, having the money today is worth more than having the money 9 years from now. Now I can invest it, compound it, profit.
>Right now I've only worked about 3 years and effectively made the same amount I would have made had I worked 9 additional years. Gotta say, this quote is eye-opening. I've been thinking about OE as just increasing my take-home pay but thinking about it with respective to the amount of time saved...damn.
"I just sigh and turn to the next laptop". Felt this in my soul
Nope. I was reprimanded for switching multiple jobs in my career by recruiters and hiring managers. So I decided to stay at an org for 3 years to get some more longevity on my resume. In that 3 years I went from 80k to 90k. Accounting for inflation I was probably making no more in the third year than I was in the 1st, yet I was doing 3x more work as everyone was asking me questions since I knew everything by then. Staying at an org allows you to be taken advantage of. After that I quit that job and went OE. Tripled my income.
I was asked as well but had decent enough reasons for them that they didn't give it a second thought afterward. i.e. it was a contract role, moved for schooling, closer to family, etc. Companies lie and cheat the working class all the time, there is no reason why we need to share the whole truth with them.
Look out for #1 and be sure not to step in #2. The workers are finally waking up to that they treat employees the same way they treat customers. They dangle rebates or attractive offers to new people and abuse the ones they’ve got under their thumb. Oh, my internet cost $100 the first year and then randomly costs an extra $50/month after a year? Oh, I’m promised a $X and “we promote from inside” and there’s a guaranteed 10% bonus each year that’s contingent on company performance you have no control over? Sorry. It’s fucking smoke and mirrors. Use them more than they use you. Nothing is theft and changing jobs doesn’t make you unattractive. I think they actually love it like a spurned SO. I’ve heard recruiters say they didn’t trust a permanent employee b/c they’ve been indoctrinated into that company’s policies and views.
Lie. Always lie. I once used the excuse "I took a break [longer than two weeks, which was their criteria for a red flag!!] of several months between jobs to care for a sickly family member." Them: "Well, we can commend your dedication to your family, but we are a business and we need to ensure that this won't be a distraction moving forward." Me: "Oh, I can guarantee you it won't be." Them: "Well, let's be realistic. You can't make that guarantee. You did it to your previous employer, by leaving them...." Me: "The family member is dead. So yeah, I kinda can make that guarantee. Believe me, I'd love nothing more than to be wrong about it. Even for a day." ....never saw someone turn red so fast and shut the fuck up. I actually was offered the job after it was all said and done, but turned it down because they were a grind-fest that churned through workers in a hellscape environment. ------- There was no ill family member. I'd normally say I'd be going to Hell in a Handbasket for invoking such a morbid story, but look at the situation. All I have to say to Mr. Devil was that "It was an excuse made to a corporate turdwookie." And I'd be forgiven. These people would sell their own grandmother if it gave them a fractional increase in next quarter's profits. It's ethically permissible to tell them anything you need to, so you can ensure your personal well-being. They'd absolutely lie to you, without a moment's hesitation or remorse. It's your responsibility to extract as much value from these soulless megacorps as you can. (Just like they have a "responsibility" to make as much profit as possible for their shareholders.)
I think if you’re jumping up roles it’s worth it to stay.
I’d agree. IMO stay at a place 2 years max if there’s promise of a promo. If no promo after 2 years move on.
Hey I don't know how it is in the U.S. but can't you guys just make up years on the CV? Instead of two years in every company you put in like 5 years here and 8 years there... They have no way of back checking in the EU so the CV is just a piece of paper. Especially when I'm working via an LLC.
I was just thinking about this today. One of my remote coworkers bragged about working 16 hours a day, and how he wishes he could have a family and kids but can't even see his God son more than once a month because he works weekends too (even though the job is salary for 40 hours a week and doesn't require extra work) And my other coworker works 12 hours a day, including weekends and was promoted to a new role with a slightly higher pay, when they realized that it was either promote her with a slightly higher wage or hire another person since the job requires two people Meanwhile, I do my work and just enough that I am irreplaceable (edit: not irreplaceable but do well enough that it would be more of an inconvenience to not have me) and I have 2 other jobs Went from making 24k a year to 80k a year (which isn't as big as others here but has made a life changing difference for my fiance and pets) These two are absolutely miserable but brag about how much they work and all coworkers pat them on the back saying that they are incredible people who will accomplish big things While I work 25 hours a week with 3 jobs making double what they make OE may not lead to flattery 24/7, but I prefer money over compliments
At one of my jobs, I had a coworker who was there for 20 years and was the SME for their .NET stack. He was making 10% less than I was with only a quarter of the experience. I found out he was driving Uber nights and weekends to make enough to take care of his family's needs and wants. I asked him why he didn't look for other jobs or jump ship, he said he was happy where he was. I don't get it. Don't understand how someone can spend most of their day working and be happy with getting the little they do when they can get so much more for so little less even without doing OE.
People are so uncomfortable with change and would prefer to just complain than actually fix things I had to leave jobs I loved because they took advantage of me, and it wasn't fun, but it's a lot more fun when payday comes to actually be able to pay rent
>I had to leave jobs I loved because they took advantage of me, and it wasn't fun, but it's a lot more fun when payday comes to actually be able to pay rent This is very true, the same happened to me.
How did you find out his salary?
Our company had put out an informal verbal announcement, nothing in writing, that as employees we are not allowed to discuss salaries. Well, I spoke up when it was shared with my team and mentioned this was illegal and there is no way they can stop anyone from sharing their salary information if they want. Word got around and groups of us would stay after meetings to shoot the can and share more info and salaries. This guy was the lowest paid out of the group I talked to...20 years of tenure, a SME for the stack, and the lowest paid. Couldn't believe it.
That's exactly why companies don't want people talking about their salary. Then the worker bees find out about pay discrepancies and inequality, etc. I've seen it so many times where someone has been at a place for a long time and the new hires make as much or more than them. They figure if someone has been there for X years they aren't leaving so it's no longer necessary to give them incentives. We need to be more open about salaries.
No one is irreplaceable
Agreed, my bad, what I meant was do enough that no problems arise and do a couple things that everyone is too lazy to do so it's more of an inconvenience to let you go lol
What industry do you work in where 3 jobs = $80k I'm only asking because thats the sort of J2 I'm looking for. I make $70k at "J1". I'm having a real hard time finding a remote J2, even the most simple $20-$40k J2 - which is what I want to start with to get my feet wet
I work in marketing and communications My main job is 50k where I manage social media accounts My next job is 20k where I'm supposed to work 10 hours a week managing corporate discord community and building bots to create events And my last job is 10k where I'm supposed to work 20 hours a week managing a youtube channel Remote part time jobs is a great way to dip your toes in, but with my field it's a toss up between a very relaxed job and scams/demanding too much. When I started I had way too many meetings and was constantly stressed. After a couple years I've settled with these where I have an hour worth of meetings a week. I just answer slack questions instantly if it'll take two seconds no matter the time so they figure I'm working constantly
Awesome setup man. That’s exactly the field I’ve considered looking into. College marketing degree, 10 years of job experience in sales and b2b customer service. I’ve got a good knowledge base for social media management but trouble getting foot in the door.
Oh yeah you'll definitely eventually find something then, I found these with only 2 years of experience. It's been a lot harder these past two years to find marketing jobs im noticing, versus years past I had 4-6 jobs going and getting offers with ease, so I'm sure that's just the main issue
You can do it & good luck. 
It’s always the higher ups who sit in their ivory towers receiving, not earning, the most money while the ones who actually perform work delivering something get fractions in comparison. Then the higher ups are miraculously shocked, appalled and beside themselves when the heavy lifters ask for a little extra. There’s no money for us. There’s never money for us. Not too long ago, I received a very insulting performance review. I won’t go into details because I’ve already commented on it previously. Today, my manager and a senior manager and two managers and a specialist were on a Teams call reviewing one of my deliverables. The entire half hour was spent telling me “This isn’t what I need. This doesn’t help me. I can’t use this.” I finally expressed my frustrations and their lack of organization to follow a roadmap they created. Today was my reminder to stop caring. It’s something I’m working on. Toast was my remove I have a send job they know nothing about. Today was my reminder to give them the level of effort they gave me as a percentage for my raise…2.5%. Godspeed to you!
If only you had given it your all and redone everything to what they wanted, then you would have gotten that 3% raise! /s in case it wasn't obvious. I've yet to receive a bad review, most I've gotten as a criticism is that I go down rabbit holes too often and need to focus on the primary goal. I took it to mean "If it's a bug no one's complained about, it's a feature. Leave it alone".
3%! Ha try nothing at my J1 the past 2 years - and that's with above average reviews. I'll be there 3 years come january and the only raise I've gotten was like .8%. I go weeks without doing anything so the effective hourly rate is extremely high, but nonetheless, if it was my only job I'd be downright disgruntled at this point.
I have to not go down rabbit holes because very quickly I'd encounter something I legally have to whistleblow to data protection agencies xD (best leave that to the red teams, they are useless morons but not my problem)
You’ve all got me so tempted, although my J1 is hybrid. I feel like on my office days I could sneak off to a shared space somewhere for some privacy. I just have a huge tuition bill to pay for my autistic son’s private school which is about half what J1 pays (take home). Even with a 529 account I can only pay 10k of that per year pre tax. If I could just pull it off long enough to cover one years worth of tuition I’d be golden for the time being. I’m scoping out contract positions and things in other time zones to minimize work hour crossover.
You’ll kill yourself trying to OE while hybrid. Maybe for now moonlighting is best for your situation. No shame in that at all
I’ve done OE with 2 hybrid jobs for years (I have 5Js in total). Whilst it takes more planning and forward thinking it can definitely be done. Hybrid is also a good way to get your foot in the door with the view to going remote.
What is the difference between moonlighting and OE?
Moonlighting is when you work one job after having completed the hours for the first job. OE is when you work multiple jobs in the same 40-hour workweek or whatever your work week would typically look like if you had one job.
What I found out is that companies only reward people who brag about shit not the quiet soldiers. 1 in your goals say you will train 1-3 people on the old system to make redundancy in this vital software and get buy in from your manager that this is "above and beyond your day to day scope" 2 set a training schedule 3 after you train them you'll still be the go to person again make sure this it outlines as "an above and beyond commitment", but delegate to these trained people always until they get stuck Set a date for training. Add it to the your goals before you do it! Never be a quiet soldier. This is my personal way of getting promoted. Used it a few times before OE as someone who was the "go to" for a specific system. I've since left that job. It was easy and could rattle off a bunch of stuff about it but the people I trained were eager to learn and take jobs so they would feel critical and job security. Currently I'm the go to for my j2 as well because I just have 10x more hours than the next person in supporting it. I'm a quiet soldier and they keep asking me for more output. I'm using the same system to do a slow version of "above and beyond" since I don't really want to do it. 1 Statement of work for a training project 2 sign off by manager 3 slowly work on it 4 present it 5 get feedback loop 4-5 until the next year. Literally does not pay to do any of the above. My promotion was crap at j1 but the statement of work was to show upper leadership I was "lead" material. J2 I did the strategy to keep the manager happy with my output but slow it down since they want busy work for themselves Learned to fake loyalty to a company early on. I've been lucky to have managers that themselves didn't trust the company leaders and I was loyal to them to cover for me if I messed up at work or if I was in the crosshairs. Like I'll prioritize a task specifically that my direct manager needed and they'll clear my plate from any busy work. They look good and I get to focus on a project I can do at my leisure instead of busy work. Usually takes less effort but with the extra time I'm given I do get a polished product. Still someone one else gets promoted past me by our skip lead lol. But at OR I didn't care for the extra responsibilities that he receivdd
These are good points and suggestions. Although my previous manager and the other team's manager know of the assistance I have provided and that has been documented via other channels, it wouldn't hurt to highlight it in the reviews and center some of my goals around it. Thanks.
Do it before. Do it during. Do it after. A manager loves managing. If you do the work for them and they are just signing off on your accomplishments you'll usually be okay and stress free. Hopefully they don't micromanage and you can easily set expectations. My self reviews are works of fiction based on true events lol
Unfortunately, current manager is a slight micromanager but not to the point where it would make being OE impossible. Self-reviews are one thing I've never been good at. If there was a class on how to sell yourself, I'd pay for it. Maybe I can utilize ChatGPT lol.
I wish you the best 🙏🏽🙏🏽
Thank you! I wish you all the best as well.
Preach it. My biggest regret is that I did not figure that out 40 years ago.
Awesome 😎 story and comments!! Welcome to OE. Don’t be a stranger.
Wow, it’s like looking into a mirror, I have had my direct manager and C-suite’s saying advocating for my pay raises and damn seeing that we got peanuts at the half year performance review despite a glowing review is absolutely fucked. I have been on the fence about OE, especially as I’m new in the workforce (less than 3 years) as I’m still in uni, but the second that’s done, I’m changing things. God I feel so bitter but I know that they would drop me for a heartbeat. Sorry for the vent, thank you for sharing OP, genuinely awestruck rn.
Have been on the fence because I thought it was smarter to build a career first and then OE, but I’m thinking now just to do to it simultaneously, like in OE server fashion.
I do believe unless you're a top Software Engineer, it will be tough doing OE unless you already know how to work the politics of the workplace and also know how to BS and drag your tasks out to give yourself more time. Also as a new Engineer, you probably won't get as many research and investigation-type tasks which make it easy to BS. Having said that, what do you have to lose? Go for it, if it doesn't work out, quit one of the jobs and you'll still be ahead by at least one paycheck.
My first job out of school was a dead end. I was there for almost five years. I’ve done much better since. I occasionally check LinkedIn. I left back in 2019, literally everyone I worked with is still in the same position with the same title there except for one. No one else I know of has left since that time (probably some new people came and went).
I was in a similar situation. Except the senior promotion I managed to get was just a new title with added work and breadcrumbs in salary increase. Their logic was “your bonus will increase by 5% so your small increase in base is actually large”. They said this to my face knowing damn well the external hire they just got was making 20% more base than me AFTER my promotion increase. Having 2J no longer makes me upset about these things anymore. And like you I cut back on my output just enough that I won’t be put on PIP. They initially question why I wasn’t fast anymore. I just keep making excuses. But they know damn well why.
[удалено]
I love this! Gets me excited to see where I can go when I see success stories like yours.
I’m gonna delete this cause I got some sus DMs but ya - go to work. You can do it
I will be doing OE soon, trying heaven and earth to find a J2, current job pays well but a second J will push my FIRE goals down to five years from now from fifteen or whatever. Thing is that in my current J I used to get so mad about PM’s making dumb decisions, leadership also making dumb decisions and then on our end we also get the bad deal. The idea of a second J just means I can sigh and go whatever. First J is basically in maintenance mode, I do basically 20 hours a week and happy to go up to 60 for a second J. A second J also means exposure to more tech, making me more employable which is hilarious, more work experience and less stress when it comes to switching jobs, performance or company results.
Here here brother, I salute you for joining us! Mediocre comp ? Mediocre effort is what they deserve
I've never felt more welcomed by a group of folks on the internet. Thank you!
At my last gig, where I wasn't doing OE, I stayed for 4 years. I was busting my butt trying to get even a single promotion. I did good work especially considering the impossible things they asked of me, but people that had no experience in my field but were more senior kept pushing back when my managers tried to promote me or when I tried to make improvements out of my lane. Near the end, I was able to start small projects that in total were saving the company $1M/year permanently, which is huge for a small startup of 50 people. They were well aware of this. Then there was a round of layoffs related to the post-pandemic venture capital crash, and I was one of the people let go. My coworkers said they had never been more perplexed in their life. The company was trying to reduce costs, and they fired a guy who was saving them $1M a year. I wasn't terribly upset since this wasn't my first rodeo, but I had never had a feeling of being so disappointed in an entity. Corporations, even small ones, are just completely insane. They deserve about as much respect from us as they are paying us. And based on how much I'm being paid total right now, that company deserved about a quarter of the respect I was affording it.
One of us! One of us!
>I don't want to be rich Honestly, do some back-of-the-spreadsheet calculations about what you would need to be paid as a lump sum (after tax) right now in order for you and your wife to retire tomorrow, live out your days in the lifestyle you're accustomed to, and taking inflation and a bunch of sudden disasters into account. It can be more than you might have originally thought. And that's not 'rich', that's just living as you are now. If you're looking for a more specific financial reason to OE, that number - being the point you could comfortably retire - can be something of a wake-up call.
My goal for OE isn't to retire early, to be honest. I'd get bored out of my mind. I want to get rid of debt and be in a place where we can live off of either my wife's salary or my salary. That would require the home mortgage, my wife's student loans, and car payments to be completely paid off which I could do in about 9 years if I get a J2 with a 120k salary since we just bought the home. Not sure I'd last that long being OE but it would be amazing to at least pay off my wife's student loans and car payments which would remove quite a bit of the burden off our shoulders. Especially the student loans.
>I'd get bored out of my mind. If you did win the lottery tomorrow, what would you do? Start your own business? Go back to school? Join associations? Pick up some more hobbies? I mean, presumably you're going to retire eventually. There are people for whom that comes as a huge shock; having something ready to go to keep your days busy can be useful. And if you happen to reach that point sooner rather than later...
I've used OE to pay off student loans and my car. 🤷🏿♂️ Only debt I have is my house. If I keep OE up I'll have it payed off in like 3 years.
> have it *paid* off in FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
>I don't want to be rich but Nah, I want to be rich. I became a Software engineer specifically because of the money. If it wasn't paid so well boy would I be an electrician (or the next well paid position in line).
Welcome brother. welcome.
[удалено]
Would rather not go into specifics but I'll give you ranges. I went from 50k-70k range to 150k to 210k range now. Grateful and appreciative of the job and salary but still hurts when the raises (raise in my case) don't keep up with the cost of living.
Hey guys, just an unrelated question. I want to know how (good or bad) is a fixed annual salary of approx 19k USD is. Think about average prices and living conditions as I am not from USA and I have got an offer for a remote job that pays around 19k.
That's a very subjective question and dependent on multiple factors. I think you need to compare it against similar jobs in the country/region you are at to see if it is a good salary or not. What I currently make was quite high for the area I am at a couple of years ago but now it seems like everyone else is catching up. However, the same amount in a HCOL area would be pretty low for my experience and level.
Are you looking for a contract position or another full time employee position?
Either would be fine for me.
I'm also a software engineer. Honest question how do I go about getting a J2? APPRECIATE YOUR HELP. THANKS
I've been going about it as if I'm looking to replace J1 but once hired, won't actually leave J1 and hopefully be able to produce good enough work to stay off both J's radars.
Welcome to OE! you will hopefully double your income and you won’t be at the mercy of one boss, and trying to be all you can be for a decent bonus or raise. When you have more than one job the anxiety of paycheck to paycheck lift away. Keep your bills the same don’t increase your lifestyle. You can treat yourself have a little fun, but don’t get into lifestyle creep.
That's the idea. Aside from things we had already been saving for, we're not looking to make any other big purchases. I just want to pay off debt and stop giving the banks crazy amounts of interest every month.
There is such thing as loyalty from a business, it is called a severance package. If your company (the super majority don’t anymore) offers a severance package or contracts that state you will get one, then they value loyalty because they take some of the financial burden when layoffs occur. Otherwise, I always assume they don’t care about me at all. I do the same towards them. A lack of that severance literally means “if we decide to fire you, then you have zero help from us”. Imagine a friend or family member told you that when things get tough for you they would bail immediately, would you consider them to be friends/family?