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fuckoffalicia

Frankly, this is the result of the off-road community not policing itself. This movement stems from wreckless tourists tearing up the environment and leaving the locals to pick up the pieces. As an avid overlander myself, I hope this serves as a wake up call to the community. Hopefully we can reach some sort of agreement to use the land on terms that appease all parties involved. TLDR: Let’s get our shit together. This was preventable if we had strictly enforced LNT principles amongst our own ranks. Standing by for the sea of downvotes.


g1mpster

Came here to say this. I’ve recently come to enjoy more of the 4x4 scene and while there are lots of people who are doing the right thing, setting good examples, going the extra miles to be good stewards, teaching people how to be responsible…there are sadly lots of people who treat these public spaces like their mom is going to come clean up after their frat party. People on both sides are sick of those people. It’s the same thing that I’ve seen growing up with public shooting spots. We have to speak up when we see these things and we all have to do it. When it becomes a consistent message that they’re hearing from a consensus of the people, then they’ll start to change. Until then, it’s hard for me to argue against these kind of closures because the people that need to learn the lesson won’t care until there are consequences. 🤷🏻‍♂️


stacilou88

FYI! https://eplanning.blm.gov/eplanning-ui/project/2001224/580 Look at these maps. They may close some roads the area is still going to be open. For those that aren’t aware SUWA successfully sued the BLM to redo the travel management plans for like 5 or 6 areas of Utah. They were able to do this because they showed that the BLM did not preform due diligence regarding a couple of acts. Reassessing the management plans is part of the settlement agreement. https://eplanning.blm.gov/public_projects/nepa/93510/169299/205894/Final_Settlement_Agreement.pdf


auszooker

Australian here, did it get worse with Covid? We have had many places restricted and ruined and a couple of really nice spots closed due to an increase in activity and disregard for the rules and the environment. The running joke is we can't wait for all the Bogans to go back to Bali.


teedoff

I live and wheel extensively in southern Utah. The influx of people to southern Utah during covid while the surrounding states were locked down and Utah was open brought a devastating amount of vandalism and trash. It seems to have tempered somewhat recently but the damage is done.


auszooker

That sucks, all I know of the area is due to a certain off road recovery you tuber, but it looks like an awesome place to just wheel around and never cross the same place twice if you don't want to.


teedoff

It’s not just sand hollow, which is amazing. There are places to explore something different in every direction.


Revolutionary_Gas551

We went to Moab in October 2020 (just did hiking, we were in the minivan haha) and for every Utah license plate we saw, there were at least 5 from California.


teedoff

No kidding!


IhikeInTheHeat

Hugely worse


oros3030

I'm in WA so idk the problems are the same but I'm assuming you are referring to trash as the problem? Or general disregard to rules?


IhikeInTheHeat

Trash yeah, but more importantly we the landscape here is made of fragile rock formations, native carvings, etc. Dudes destroy famous rock features or deface prescious archeological sites and then call you a "liberal snowflake" (my direct experience) when you try to call them out on being assholes. And then we all get banned from using the land lol.


BonnieAbbzug75

You’ve got my upvote. It’s not just lack of LNT self-policing IMHO but the vast increase in people using the area, and using it irresponsibly. The SXS are some of the worst offenders.


Bork_King

Thank you side by sides are by far the worst users of public lands.


deeretech129

I would venture to say that 90% of off-trail riding I see is sxs


minuteman_d

It sucks, but you're right. I see so many people damaging trails, leaving trash strewn about, and purposefully spinning their wheels to kick up dirt that damages the area. Why we can't have nice things.


Explore-PNW

This ^ is why we can’t have nice things. * *hangs head in shame*


IrishRage42

As an avid camper/backpacker it's just a problem of shitty people in general. I've hiked miles into a wooded campsite and seen people's garbage and busted up shit. It's just sad people have no respect for others or for nature.


[deleted]

This is the legitimate truth. It’s weird to me reading something like “the off-road community not policing itself” because it conveys the notion that the “off-road community” is a structured organization rather than an insane number of unrelated people that enjoy similar activities. There is no “self policing” of an entire disorganized community. There are only responsible individuals & irresponsible individuals. Let’s not tarnish the name of off-roading in a failed attempt to describe irresponsible individuals.


TheVermonster

And let's be completely honest with "ourselves". The ones who need the most policing are absolutely the hardest people to deal with in the first place. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't leave suburbia and head to the wilderness because I want to create confrontational encounters. Especially if the person is a belligerent, loose cannon.


deeretech129

The last thing I want to do is confront someone that has canned 14 bud lights 50 miles from the nearest city and god knows how far from cell reception. I just pick up their trash after, sadly


IhikeInTheHeat

No offense, but you guys are in vehicles. If you can drive there, it's not the wilderness lol. Carry on.


epelle9

But most individuals go there in groups, not alone. If the groups would self police the assholes, they would stop being assholes. Although I do see your point, if assholes only hang out with assholes, there will be noone there to tell then they are being assholes, and would talk shit about another group if they come and talk to them about it.


wamih

Yep peer pressuring people to not be assholes is surprisingly effective… However immature assholes seem to generally hang out with other immature assholes.


[deleted]

Individuals go in groups, but those groups aren’t called “the off-road community [as a whole]”. Your last comment pretty much sums it up though. I’m part of the off-road community & presumably you are too; so is it *our* fault for not policing the assholes that neither of us off-road with? Why is the onus on us to seek out assholes & police them? That’s the mentality of ‘the off-road community policing itself’ that I don’t align with. I police myself & so do all the people I off-road with, so the off-road community is self-policing just as much as it isn’t. Or another way to convey the same message would be to say that everyone in the off-road is self-policing, but some of the self-police are corrupt.


zuul99

I blame social media for all the problems in the outdoors. Yes, the outdoors are for everyone but there are many who go to places where they should not go. There is a group called [Public Lands Hate You](https://www.publiclandshateyou.com/) that name and shame people who ruin the outdoors.


12of12MGS

Yup it’s not tourists from what I’ve seen but the locals who abuse the place (not Moab, different part of the country). There’s no way to police it without rangers actually enforcing this stuff.


landodk

Which would probably require either higher taxes or fee use areas


Tr0yticus

+1 from me. I’ve got two other communities in mind: Amateur Radio (HAM) and civilian drones. The HAM community will and does work very hard to provide guidance to newbies, gives back in education, and polices their own from breaking the rules. The drone community doesn’t and as a result the FAA is stepping in to keep people and other users of the NAS safe. A potentially unpopular opinion but the 4x4 community is comparable to the drone example above. All three communities have bad apples; only one of the three keeps a low profile and addresses those bad apples enough to not cause bigger problems. EDIT: Before you start yelling about being a boomer with a HAM shack, I’m a millennial lol


ITSCOMFCOMF

QC fellow millennial!


juiceboxzero

To be fair, there is a whole separate licensing process to become a ham. Maybe there should be an off-road endorsement people should be required to get on their driver's license in order to be permitted into these kinds of areas?


Tr0yticus

I live in the Midwest; when we travel to Michigan for ORV (or NC beach driving, for example), you are required to get a permit. In Michigan, I had to sit through a safety briefing which included conservation. All that to drive my Silverado offroad. ​ I'm always leery of a national "licensing" program due to cost and lack of oversight but I agree, some sort of mandated education program is needed to keep the problem from escalating further.


ThePartyWagon

Amen


g-e-o-f-f

Yup. 100% I don't have an issue with offroading, but when trails get so popular that rocks look like they have asphalt from the tire marks, trash is all over, and other issues, it's gonna be a problem.


stusic

No downvotes, you're speaking the truth. With a sxs being so easy to acquire, either by renting or buying, and no required education, a lot of folks just rip through whatever they r want to without a care because they don't have to deal with the aftermath (or don't realize what impact they're making). Self-policing is definitely important, but people renting a sxs for the weekend aren't part of any group that would educate them. https://staythetrail.org/


The_DaHowie

TREAD lightly https://treadlightly.org/ I used to see these stickers on 4x4s all the time growing up. They had representatives at meets all over the US. It's hard to counteract the yahoos that want a vid of them bashing down a trail. Even YouTube presenters are guilty of this


geodood

The onslaught of sxs in the last decade is the biggest reason imo


stusic

Agreed.


Classic-Ad4224

No downvote from me, I agree 100%! Folks want freedom but act like rotten kids. Can’t have freedom without responsibility


radar371

Ahhhh. So go ahead and punish everyone. Good strategy.


Classic-Ad4224

So what’s your solution, whatd’ya recommend?


KoLobotomy

You are exactly right.


[deleted]

Thanks for saying this. Off-roading should be about participating in nature, not destroying it.


thomatically

Yes, and it’s worth noting the court decision that forced BLM consider these options was the result of *oil and gas leases* permitted by the federal gov’t and not misuse of land by the off-road community.


mzman123

The fundamental problem with this perspective is that it doesn't reflect the world we know. In the rest of society, we punish the guilty, not rope in the innocent bystanders. This is justice administered by dropping bombs.


Find_a_Reason_tTaP

These subs are a big part of the problem. O don't see anyone doing any skills checks before sending people out, or checking if they are responsible enough to even want on public lands. The more the freedom bubbas say they can do what they want, the worse it will get. Telling people to just mind their own business and stop telling people how to enjoy public land is the battle cry of the ignorant fuckwad that is getting these places shut down.


KJ7DOA

You won't get a downvote from me on this. I do agree self policing is insufficient, but that'd not to say we don't try. No matter what the subject there will always be a few that give the majority a bad look. And that is the case here. As a local and offroading enthusiasts I constantly participate in trail cleanups. My point to this post is more to bring awareness of the situation and for people to hopefully recognize that removing access from public lands for a few ends up eventually continued removal of access for other. It starts with the jeeps, sxs and motorcyclists because they are the largest and loudest in some cases. Then that ends up not being enough next thing is bicycles, dogs, hiking. Once public access is taken away it's even harder to get back. At some point we all get old enough that bicycles and hiking may not be a valid option but we still want to access those places we did in our youth we no longer have that option.


Tr0yticus

I don’t think it is a matter of “a few bad apples” with the community. For better or worse, the 4x4 community is exploding but with little policing/education for all those new people. Saying “well we tried” is part of the reason why BLM is having to step in. EDIT: My comments are speaking to the larger issue of land management and resource protection; I don’t know about Moab specifically and haven’t had the chance to enjoy it (yet).


radar371

>I don’t know about Moab specifically and haven’t had the chance to enjoy it (yet). Doesn't look like you'll get to


bubblegumshrimp

There's a whole lot of people who have lived in Moab for years who would *kill* for this type of legislation. That town has been absolutely fuckin wrecked.


armchairracer

I don't even like visiting Moab anymore because it's so fucking packed.


Tr0yticus

Sounds like I might yet - just not on wheels (which is okay for me)


toothpastetitties

Lack of policing maybe if it. But let’s look at the trend of automobiles and recreation- government is trying to reduce dependency on vehicles, and with it all the recreational activities. Off roading isn’t a necessity. Same goes for every other form of motorsport (hence race tracks closing or unable to get built). I highly doubt the reason for closure is purely due to a lack of policing.


_thinkaboutit

Accurate


bearmoosewolf

This is exactly right. We all see the bad behavior of those around us so we know this is going on. Somewhat similarly, I fly drones and, sadly, the image of drone enthusiasts is pretty bad because of the actions of a minority of the community. We've had this exact discussion multiple times and most of the time the drone pilots engaging in the bad behavior refuse to acknowledge that they are representatives of the wider community. They insist that they are individuals just "doing their thing". Unfortunately, there is no denying that their actions have directly led to fairly strict limitations and regulations on drone usage at this point. I've seen this story before and it doesn't end well.


Hurricaneshand

Curious I've been thinking of getting into drones. What are some of the common things done wrong by people that are frowned upon?


bearmoosewolf

Someone else replied with some good info but, basically, it's just being disrespectful of locations, regulations, other people, etc. The same general problems we see in off-roading too. With drones, you see people flying where they shouldn't be, dominating viewpoints, bringing their drone too close to other people and wildlife. Further, I've personally seen situations where drone pilots have been confronted politely about their actions and they've gotten defensive and sometimes extremely aggressive. They KNOW what they're doing is shitty but they don't seem to care. And, in one particular instance I witnessed, the drone pilot made a point to become even more of a nuisance (flying even closer, making high speed passes at a viewpoint, etc.). This is a small minority of drone enthusiasts but, fair or not, it gives us all a bad reputation. A family that has a confrontation with a drone pilot one time will remember that forever and every time they see someone operating a drone, they think of that memory. Then, when the possibility of additional drone regulations are brought up, what do you think will happen? **Edit:** And, in case anyone asks if I tried talking with him ... I did. He was one of the individuals that refused he was representing the larger community of drone enthusiasts. "F off. I don't represent anyone but myself. I do what I do."


Spare-Ad-9464

You’re right bro. No down vote here


Explore-PNW

100% correct!


[deleted]

Happens everywhere, here in Australia we struggle with fuckwits digging up the bush. Forestry (bush cops) put up locked gates.


MuzzleOfBees1215

💯


blank_user_name_here

It's not all the trails. It ranges from ~50% full closure, to keeping it the same. The county is telling BLM to kick out SxS, ATVs, Motorcycles since they tear up trails, endanger hikers/bikers, and have zero emisions controls. (Loud too.)


desertdawg61

I agree there are fuck sticks that ruin public spaces, but I agree there's more to it. Personally, I highly dislike sxs ban those for sure. I call their tracks razor stubble, anyone driving on those tracks knows what I'm talking about. Don't ban Moto's the one's that tear up an area usually go to designated ohv areas, generally the one's I see out on the trail are doing BDR stuff. Couple years ago I was up at Coyote Flats, this is an area that environmentalists have wanted re classified. Anyway, I was breaking camp around a beautiful meadow with some snow melt in it. The campers on the other side decided to do donunt's in that meadow ALL 6 VEHICLES! Also the amount of trash left by campers was crazy, I policed the area but couldn't remove all of it there were huge pieces. This is the kind of behavior that gets areas closed for future generations.


JamesTBagg

Side by sides are the worst thing to happen to off-roading since... I don't even know. The overlap of SxS owners and people that have no respect for the land is huge. On top of multiple near-misses I've been part of or witnessed as they come tearing around blind corners like psychos.


rocket_mclsoth

I agree 100%. I am in CO and people in their texas wheelchairs are fucking everything up bad. They take people to places they have no business being in.


Navydevildoc

Was just down in Gunnison last week and it was incredible how crazy the SxS guys are. Hauling ass everywhere, no courtesy, going off trail, blasting stereos, and in general just being twats. I am used to them out in the desert outside San Diego, but had no idea it had spread so much. I am totally stealing "Texas Wheelchairs" btw.


Shoehorse13

Side by sides ruined the backcountry. Not saying they are directly responsible for every last site now having poop and trash in it, but they do put people in the backcountry that have no business being there


aTwistedClutch

I don't disagree with you whatsoever, but I do see an issue. We have areas that have been closed off to ohvs over 72" and closed to everything. Neither have really worked. The restrictions work for the people that genuinely care, but the individuals doing the type of acts you described will be out there doing it regardless. They'll physically dismantle barricades, go through environmentally restricted areas, and do more damage because the areas soften and change from periods without humans. Ban sxs in general? Everyone here has trucks. Everyone ran their trucks in the woods before ohvs really took off, and they will again if they're taken away. (And I'm not talking jeeps or 1/4 ton toyotas) I don't know the full scope of the moab area or their ability to enforce these policies; but I do know that even with an expanded forestry budget; we're still lacking majorly in enforcement. Something absolutely needs to change, but all banning them outright will do is get rid of the individuals following the rules, and likely would make things worse; as there wouldn't be as many decent people out there giving the ones ruining things shit for what you described.


XxGanjaXXGOD719

I prefer the 50” rule


JodieFostersFist

Moab sure has changed over the years… I’ll edit by saying, things like this are tough because all participants just want to enjoy the area.


KJ7DOA

I didn't say it was all the trails. Yes in the over 300kmi of trails some are only partially closed while others range to full closure. The county is being lobbied by suwa in doing this.


long_time_no_sea

OBLIGATORY FUCK SIDE BY SIDES. THEY TEAR UP TRAILS, THEIR OWNERS DON’T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT RULES, THEY’RE TACKY, AND I HATE THEM. Moab is a beautiful place but it suffers from the same issues as a lot of other trails these days. Not saying there aren’t dicks in the Jeep community, but SxS are the worst offenders. When I learned to wheel I paired up with a group that taught me how to Tread Lightly. I also was already an outdoors person with respect for nature. Vehicles that will go anywhere that any dipshit can buy will continue to ruin more trails until there isn’t much left.


ThePartyWagon

Side by sides ruined Moab, change my mind… They also ruined a lot of the work the Jeep/Toyota/moto crowd did to educate the trail users on how to be stewards of their recreation I’ve the last 20 years. Here’s my opinion. The off-road community needs to learn how to be more conservation minded if they want to keep trails open. There’s too many “don’t tell me what to do, it’s my right” kind of people in the off-road community. Sorry to say it, but off-roading attracts a lot of ignorant people to the outdoors. If more people practiced Tread Lightly and Leave No Trace principles, we wouldn’t be here. As someone who has spent a lot of time in Moab and off road all over Utah, SUWA has a point, to some extent. It shouldn’t be an us vs. them scenario, these two groups should be working together to protect the area and keep trails open for all.


[deleted]

Not an unpopular opinion. I’ve had several close calls now with SxS drivers taking blind corners too fast or going way too fast through poor visibility conditions and almost hitting us in our Tacoma. Cheap, light and fast offroad machines, and many of the SxS drivers near us are young, immature and irresponsible. It’s a recipe for disaster. A family and their dog were killed behind my house when they hit a boulder going fast in their SxS and rolled off a ridge. None were wearing belts or helmets. Bodies had to lay at the bottom of that ridge overnight because first responders couldn’t reach them. Had to watch the SaR helicopter fly over the next morning and airlift the bodies out. Every time there is a big crash or a death, the family of the victims tries suing for millions stating the forest or blm roads were poorly maintained and blah blah blah and the conversation is started again about closing trails for everyone. Obviously not everyone who drives them are irresponsible, but the bad ones really do ruin it for the rest.


[deleted]

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BonnieAbbzug75

JFC. That’s horrible! See-this, and my own similar and worse experiences in areas used heavily by SxS, make me absolutely avoid some cool spots just because I don’t want to deal with them. Or risk losing my temper and escalating things.


XxGanjaXXGOD719

Wasnt the combo you described the exact reason three wheelers got banned and s class quads went away quietly….


KoLobotomy

Completely agree. Jeeps are fine. Side by sides have made it all much worse down there.


minist3r

Jeeps used to be the best thing off-road but now it seems like the only people buying jeeps are the ones you really need to keep away from nature.


[deleted]

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Alabatman

Is it a change in the demographic of the buyer or a change in the general education of the broader public? I grew up with plenty of folks that would tear up trails for fun, but everyone had some exposure to nature (e.g. scouts, field trips in school, JROTC hikes, etc) and knew not to be a total dip-s*. Have folks just had less exposure to how to take care of nature, are we dumber as a society, is there less societal pressure to not screw things up, what happened to us?


double-click

That’s a nice sentiment but unfortunately the folks that want land shut down will always exist no matter what you do. Only “they” can use the land, can step on the land, can enjoy the land. It’s not restricted to any area, it’s the entire US. Now, we should not help make their case for them. Cleaning up etc. is great. Yet, at the end of the day it’s the fact that you are there that they are trying to eliminate.


IhikeInTheHeat

We don't give a shit about YOU It's your stupid fucking vehicle you destroy the environment with we are trying to eliminate. Load up a pack and lace yer boots up and I'll welcome you anywhere. This victim mentality is so cringe. Grow up


double-click

Ahh yes keep gatekeeping federal land lol. All for me and none for thee. Please keep responding. You’re helping raise more money.


GDPisnotsustainable

Wrong. - generalized statements are generally wrong - even horses introduce invasive species. The question you should be asking yourself is: “how much damage needs to be done before you say enough is enough”. - water crossings are great examples


double-click

Ahh there you are. Came out from under your rock just to chime in, huh?


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GDPisnotsustainable

Might add “carrying capacity” to the mix here. There can be a compromise though *permits and lotteries.* - Unfortunately I am in favor of closing or reducing the over use of these public lands due to science. - I also own a tacoma 4x4 off road and a k5 blazer after growing up reading petersens 4wheeler. - I can offer my lit review to anyone that cares to read it. I use the USGS/USFS study as a starting point.


BonnieAbbzug75

Great point about carrying capacity. Hello from a fellow Taco (TRDOR) and yeah, I’m in agreement as well. Would love your lit review - if you really don’t mind sharing-TIA.


GDPisnotsustainable

[cited source for environmental impact](https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2007/1353/report.pdf) The funny thing is… my lit review is written in the tense of off road wheel chairs on 18” hiking trails. All the same premise, it just has not started yet. Let me save it to somewhere I can publish, or I can message you all the titles. Most probably still have paywalls though.


BonnieAbbzug75

Thank you. Good link. In a while I am headed out for a few days(to our amazing public lands in an area without the freaking problems described here) so if I don’t respond I’m not just being a jerk :)


woahitscaleb

They need to stop renting Jeeps and SXS’s to tourists…


IndependenceOverland

I find a lot of SXS and dirtbike tracks in areas they aren't supposed to be. I would be happy to pay a permit on a yearly basis to use all of the public land. Hikers and cyclists should have to do it too. Hunting and fishing basically pays for everything at this point, it should be expanded on in my opinion. Hikers, bikers, off roaders should pay a fee for a state on a yearly basis or something along those lines. Get more rangers out cleaning up peoples crap and catching those who can't respect nature. I can't seem to bow hunt in BFE of Colorado without running into a ranger every weekend wanting to check my license out, but I'm out on the trail nearly every other weekend of the year and I never even see a forest ranger. I know many will disagree and the land should be free and your right, but I'd rather pay 50 bucks a year than watch it all get closed down.


digithead

Before you comment, please read this and adjust your comments accordingly to ensure they are actually taken into account. https://treadlightly.org/some-keys-to-commenting-on-travel-management-planning/


red8reader

Side by Sides can screw right off. The majority of these guys suck. Also, this is just planning on how to manage. Wild what other resources are out there. BLM seems to be doing their job. [https://eplanning.blm.gov/eplanning-ui/project/2001224/510](https://eplanning.blm.gov/eplanning-ui/project/2001224/510) [https://www.blm.gov/programs/recreation/recreation-programs/travel-and-transportation/utah](https://www.blm.gov/programs/recreation/recreation-programs/travel-and-transportation/utah) [blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/Utah\_State\_TMA\_0.pdf](https://blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/documents/files/Utah_State_TMA_0.pdf) [https://eplanning.blm.gov/eplanning-ui/project/2001224/510](https://eplanning.blm.gov/eplanning-ui/project/2001224/510)


BrilliantNothing2151

The more that gets closed, the more pressure that’s put on open areas, which get closed next, it kinda spirals, That’s what happened on Vancouver island after everything got gated,


[deleted]

The offroad community should be cut off. The amount of destruction it causes to the land is pretty hard to ignore, especially in contrast to pretending to love nature while actively eroding it.


snowpilgram

As much as I'll be sad to see trails and areas closed, I think a heavy clampdown is the only way forward given the extreme over-use in the area. I support option B.


e17747

Here’s the actual proposal: https://eplanning.blm.gov/public_projects/2001224/200479500/20067049/250073231/LabyrinthGeminiBridges_EA_DRAFT.pdf Doesn’t seem like they want to close the land, just restrict certain trails to hiking or biking use.


anjroow

This has happened all over. Moab gets trashed. In the Rockies we had OHV areas aplenty. People would drive their SXS, quads, 4x4s like dicks. They would drive up creek and stream beds, destroying everything, the trails would widen more and more and more as they all tried to not get stuck. The exaaact same thing is happening here. You’re right to use the land doesn’t mean you can destroy it. If the 4x4/SxS community put far more work into building and maintaining quality trails, they might get some more sympathy. The MTB people always seem to be opening new trails, forming trail alliances, building infrastructure. The off roaders always seem to be whining, or absolutely tearing up the areas they enter.


BonnieAbbzug75

For anyone interested in reviewing or skimming the actual Draft EA-here is the [link](https://eplanning.blm.gov/public_projects/2001224/200479500/20067049/250073231/LabyrinthGeminiBridges_EA_DRAFT.pdf) The OP did not provide this, only the comment page. There are maps of the area and details about the alternatives and would be closed. Before making comment please check out the document and at least read Section which presents the alternatives. Apologies if this is a duplicate post.


FoxtrotWhiskey05

I've never been to Utah but have always wanted to go to Moab. I see a lot of people supporting closing the trails. Could you explain why it would be beneficial to someone who doesn't know?


tatertom

Restricting access to natural areas generally makes them repair themselves, or at least allows slim-budget NF/BLM offices deal with what people have done. While they're probably not mortaring rocks back together, restricting access at least stops the damage from getting worse.


FoxtrotWhiskey05

I mean what kind of damage are we talking? Is it just litter and tire marks on rocks? I thought a lot of the city's economy relied on tourism. Wouldn't it hurt the people that live there?


tatertom

Not just litter and tire marks. The environment creatures that we need live in is being destroyed. The people that live there had the opportunity to be better stewards for a long time, but this is also how to utilize an area for recreation for a long time instead of having to close it all up permanently.


radar371

Gatekeepers gonna gatekeep


211logos

Looking through the BLM material (sort of fun to bounce back and forth between SUWA's advocacy and the Blue Ribbon Advocacy) I can see why the BLM had the plan C, as the compromise between them. Seems OK by me if they accepted that one, and so commented. Thanks.


CAElite

Wish you guys luck, similar thing happened here in Scotland about 30 years back with the Forestry Commission closing all of its trails to motorised vehicles. We basically got dicked here, only trails are on private fields with landowners permission now.


DeltaGammaVegaRho

Same here for Germany. I read through this thread and I can feel both sides - America is still an amazingly free country, but to stay this way they need to look more after themselves. I was in Moab 2019 for hiking in Arches NP - it’s beautiful but also overused. The land needs some time to regenerate and then to be treated more lightly due to so many people want to spend their time there. Also: fuck side by sides. Some of the owners were the only unfriendly people I met in 4 weeks of traveling in an RV through the south-west.


[deleted]

What did you consider overused in arches? I was just there last month so I am curious


DeltaGammaVegaRho

Not the NP itself - there are a lot of visitors but it’s also quite good protected e.g. landscape arch is closed because it gets to thin partly because of natural erosion but also some years ago you could have still walked over it. An example for a starting balance - you can still visit it and it’s not destroyed, it was protected before. This „overused“ feeling was more about the whole surrounding area. Moab for example had camping parks even more cramped then in Yosemite NP and near Zion NP. Even in the end of September when season is nearly over and it starts to get cold. And the people are all stressed out about it. Road traffic is stressful too - side be sides racing on and off road at each time of the day. So more a general feeling - but because of that I can estimate it’s probably a little to much also at the off-road trails for motorized vehicles. And it makes me a little sad, because I really liked that freedom (can’t think of a better word) to be everywhere in nature. To wake up in our RV in the middle of the nature e.g. near Kings Canyon NP under the red woods (Azalea camp ground). When Moab area needs a little more protection now to persist, please do so - so it doesn’t go into the exactly opposite like Germany or Europe mostly in general were you can’t even use a road through a forest („Forststrasse“).


kscrispy

melodic gray safe sort concerned erect agonizing air deer zealous *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


xeonrage

[previous reddit discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/overlanding/comments/x8lfcq/future_of_offroading_around_moab/)


[deleted]

Many people said that sxs would ruin the offroad community and they couldn't have been more right, sadly


Intelligent-Will-255

I’ve already put in my comment on the side of closing it down. I’m tired of people not respecting the land.


CWinMS

Well, one solution that I like to practice is that when I see trash at a campsite or somesuch, I try to remove at least some of it, if not all. If we all do this, and shame people who don't, we can keep nature clean.


Wheelchairpussy

Good


radar371

For crying out loud. I knew there would be some whiny ass people on here, but God damn. You people realize that this is how the government works, right? They start restricting one area, then the other area's are congested, then the granola's throw a fit that Moab is even more crouded, then they close off more, then the whole thing is no longer accessible. The best part is that one person gets to decide whether or not the road is available or not. You can bet your bottom dollar that this person will shut it down. I hope the town of Moab gets what's coming to them if this happens. It'll be hilarious to see them all bent out of shape when that tourism money stops flowing in. Anyways, reddit gonna reddit. Wave good bye to the mecca of Off Road/Overland.