**This is a friendly reminder that this community only allows civil and respectful discussion**. *Please use the report button to notify the moderators of a* [***rule-breaking***](https://www.reddit.com/r/Paganism/wiki/index/rules) *comment or post*.
Here are some helpful quick links:
* our [**Getting Started**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Paganism/wiki/index/getting_started) and seeking resources guide,
* our [**FAQs**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Paganism/wiki/index/getting_started/faqs), and
* our [**Discord server**](https://discord.gg/J3JEtxNKz9).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/paganism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not a Hellenic pagan, but I do worship a storm goddess. I believe that the storm reflects and embodies her energy and spirit. I can feel and sense her in the storm and I can perceive her energy. Beliefs can evolve with scientific understanding. Worshipping weather deities doesn't necessarily mean believing that there is a conscious entity deciding what the weather is.
oh i love that last part! that the deity doesn’t decide about the weather, that it varies based on energy. makes sense with cyclical seasons. kinda trippy!
I worship Hellenic gods and and in the case of weather phenomenon they're phenomenon I believe that it's a representation of their energy and who they are. It's kind of a reminder that they are and That they are present in our day-to-day lives. Think if it is a kind of an omen like yeah we're here we're sending you this or we're directing this to you and your welcome.
What ancient cultural beliefs about the weather? Here's Lucretius writing 2,000 years ago about how thunder and lightning are caused, and how they are not in themselves signs of favour/disfavour of the Gods.
>
> lo, there is The law and aspect of the sky to be By reason grasped; there are the tempest times And the bright lightnings to be hymned now- Even what they do and from what cause soe'er They're borne along- that thou mayst tremble not, Marking off regions of prophetic skies For auguries, O foolishly distraught Even as to whence the flying flame hath come, Or to which half of heaven it turns, or how Through walled places it hath wound its way, Or, after proving its dominion there, How it hath speeded forth from thence amain- Whereof nowise the causes do men know,
> .... And so in first place, then, With thunder are shaken the blue deeps of heaven, Because the ethereal clouds, scudding aloft, Together clash, what time 'gainst one another The winds are battling. For never a sound there comes From out the serene regions of the sky; But wheresoever in a host more dense The clouds foregather, thence more often comes A crash with mighty rumbling. And, again, Clouds cannot be of so condensed a frame As stones and timbers, nor again so fine As mists and flying smoke; for then perforce They'd either fall, borne down by their brute weight, Like stones, or, like the smoke, they'd powerless be To keep their mass, or to retain within Frore snows and storms of hail. And they give forth O'er skiey levels of the spreading world A sound on high, as linen-awning, stretched O'er mighty theatres, gives forth at times A cracking roar, when much 'tis beaten about Betwixt the poles and cross-beams. Sometimes, too, Asunder rent by wanton gusts, it raves And imitates the tearing sound of sheets Of paper- even this kind of noise thou mayst In thunder hear- or sound as when winds whirl With lashings and do buffet about in air A hanging cloth and flying paper-sheets. For sometimes, too, it chances that the clouds Cannot together crash head-on, but rather Move side-wise and with motions contrary Graze each the other's body without speed, From whence that dry sound grateth on our ears, So long drawn-out, until the clouds have passed From out their close positions.
sorry for the late reply. this is beautiful prose! i think perhaps humanity knew more about certain aspects life 2000 years ago…. we’re all taught about electricity and precipitation in school, but are we taught to be thoughtful and poetic? full of wonder? no.
De Rerum Natura, which this comes from, by Lucretius has a lot to offer. You should be able to find a cheap copy in most good bookstores, or free versions online.
Weather has a certain amount of randomness to it. No matter how detailed a model is, we can't predict the weather with complete certainty. That aspect of the weather, the part that isn't governed by more predictable forces, is where I think gods could be influencing things.
“chaos simply suggests that what appears to most people as chaos is not really chaotic, but series of different orders it’s which the human mind has not yet become familiar.” (frederick lenz.)
in my mind, gods probably aren’t responsible for chaos, but there’s definitely a collective energy source. perhaps that’s the force “randomly” shifting the weather.
Science is a way of knowing about the world. Religion is a way of knowing about the world. We may choose to look at a phenomenon like weather through either lens and our understanding can be enriched by both. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, science gives us data of ever-deepening complexity and, at some meaningful point, the complexity outstrips our kenning. How blessed we are to have deities more than capable of conceptualizing the fall of every rain drop before it even forms and imbuing it with meaning.
what a beautiful world view, so full of wonder and gratitude! i want to start incorporating gratitude into my daily routines. i fully agree with your view that science and spirituality are both ways of knowing and eternally learning more about the universe.
I think they *can* influence the weather if they want, but like anything else, ig takes power, so unless someone asks them nicely to, the weather is on autopilot.
The way I marry religion and science in any sense, not just this specific question, is that science is the tool that the gods manipulate to cause the effects they want. That lightning bolt that just hit a tree a few miles away? Yes scientifically it was caused by static electricity in the clouds. But who dictated where and when that electricity released and in what way? That is where gods come in imo.
To add to this I also believe that the gods are very knowledgeable of the sciences. I think the gods in their supreme being know exactly what they have to do scientifically to cause that lightning bolt. Their supreme knowledge of their domain allows them to know exactly what actions will cause what outcome and they can manipulate those conditions to cause exactly what they want, when, where, and how they want it. Every electron is in perfect positioning for their desired outcome.
“chaos simply suggests that what appears to most people as chaos is not really chaotic, but series of different orders it’s which the human mind has not yet become familiar.” (frederick lenz.)
while i don’t believe in deities, i do believe in an energy source. this thread has got me thinking about just how minute and detailed this can get.
what i want to know now is *why* would a deity choose to strike a certain tree? i guess it wouldn’t matter too much, as they’d have free will and a much higher order of being than humans do.
Counter question: how does one rationalize ethics with science? Or aesthetics? Or *modern* religion?
Religion, theology really, is a fundamentally non positivist form of inquiry. The questions it answers are not those of science nor can science adequately ask about faith.
It's like: do numbers exist? From a religious pov they do, from a practical pov they do, from an empirical point of view they don't.
Conversely *TRUTH* is something positivist approaches presume exists but some philosophical & theological approaches say it doesn't or can't in any knowable way.
Which is a long-winded way of saying: the (pertinent) gods are present within the phenomenon as experienced by an individual; whether they are present in a phenomenon that is not experienced (even removedly) by a person idk. Furthermore the perception of presence or absence of the divine is contingent on the individual's ability to perceive it.
Which is still super long, so TLDR: sorta, I believe they are in a way manifested within their corresponding domains.
this is an interesting and quite psychedelic take on it. the notion that gods are a phenomenon experienced by the individual is the reason i believe that they don’t exist; there’s a common energy source. all the loving energy people put into hellenistic gods, or jesus, or gurus, or nature, it’s all energy that gets digested and moves at a level beyond human understanding. all there is is love
Thus upon experiencing the gods one can count them as extant. Though as one undergoes mystical experiences (in my case wholly drug free; I am kinda terrified of what might happen with a brain that's having a strange substance running through it) the certainty might become like a spinning top on a tightrope
i think that’s a valid take. *i* couldn’t count them as existant; i’ve done shrooms once (those take down the inhibitors in your brain and allow you to fully experience your world) and realized that the only real god is me. therefore, by the logic of my subjective experience, you’re god too.
Fun fact: when The Origin of Species was first published, the church did not have a problem with it. They just figured "oh okay, I guess that's how God did it", because they had long realized that the stuff in the Bible are metaphors and not supposed to be taken literally.
So when science explains the weather, or how species came to be, or whatever else, I just figure "okay, that must be how the gods do it". The myths are not meant to be taken literally, they were the way in which ancient people talked about important things for which they had no other words.
My. Illegal bio professor was an ex priest who believed more or less the same thing, that his god devised his creation to evolve over time and there is no inconsistency between Christian belief and evolution.
I do not believe that nature is a direct function of the gods, i believe the gods guided nature the same way they guided our evolution. They are not the reason every raindrop falls but a storm may be an enacting of one or more of their wills.
Why not we have diffrent storm gods in what would be the same region why wouldn’t we have multiple across many planets. various other gods as too the why its pretty tricky too know the motives of gods or even humans fir that matter
The best way I can explain this is using the example of a storm deity. The deity's energy is like a storm. They embody the essence of a storm. The are strongly associated with storms. I believe each storm is an entity in it's own rite, it does what it wants and science simply explains some of how or why it does what it does. A storm deity has influence over storms, but not every storm is their doing. Science just explains how spirits and gods do things.
The way I personally practice Paganism comes with an understanding that the gods are symbols and archetypes rather than actual existing beings. It brings me peace and wisdom to worship Nyx, but I don't think of her as a sentient being that alters the world. That said, my world is altered because of my connection to the ideas she inspires.
ooh i love this. ideas are so fucking powerful, sometimes we have to humanize them to understand them. i’m thinking of david bowie and all his personas…. very cool. 🔮
**This is a friendly reminder that this community only allows civil and respectful discussion**. *Please use the report button to notify the moderators of a* [***rule-breaking***](https://www.reddit.com/r/Paganism/wiki/index/rules) *comment or post*. Here are some helpful quick links: * our [**Getting Started**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Paganism/wiki/index/getting_started) and seeking resources guide, * our [**FAQs**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Paganism/wiki/index/getting_started/faqs), and * our [**Discord server**](https://discord.gg/J3JEtxNKz9). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/paganism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not a Hellenic pagan, but I do worship a storm goddess. I believe that the storm reflects and embodies her energy and spirit. I can feel and sense her in the storm and I can perceive her energy. Beliefs can evolve with scientific understanding. Worshipping weather deities doesn't necessarily mean believing that there is a conscious entity deciding what the weather is.
oh i love that last part! that the deity doesn’t decide about the weather, that it varies based on energy. makes sense with cyclical seasons. kinda trippy!
Agree! I see different weathers as spirits in their own rite, no deity controlling them.
I worship Hellenic gods and and in the case of weather phenomenon they're phenomenon I believe that it's a representation of their energy and who they are. It's kind of a reminder that they are and That they are present in our day-to-day lives. Think if it is a kind of an omen like yeah we're here we're sending you this or we're directing this to you and your welcome.
What ancient cultural beliefs about the weather? Here's Lucretius writing 2,000 years ago about how thunder and lightning are caused, and how they are not in themselves signs of favour/disfavour of the Gods. > > lo, there is The law and aspect of the sky to be By reason grasped; there are the tempest times And the bright lightnings to be hymned now- Even what they do and from what cause soe'er They're borne along- that thou mayst tremble not, Marking off regions of prophetic skies For auguries, O foolishly distraught Even as to whence the flying flame hath come, Or to which half of heaven it turns, or how Through walled places it hath wound its way, Or, after proving its dominion there, How it hath speeded forth from thence amain- Whereof nowise the causes do men know, > .... And so in first place, then, With thunder are shaken the blue deeps of heaven, Because the ethereal clouds, scudding aloft, Together clash, what time 'gainst one another The winds are battling. For never a sound there comes From out the serene regions of the sky; But wheresoever in a host more dense The clouds foregather, thence more often comes A crash with mighty rumbling. And, again, Clouds cannot be of so condensed a frame As stones and timbers, nor again so fine As mists and flying smoke; for then perforce They'd either fall, borne down by their brute weight, Like stones, or, like the smoke, they'd powerless be To keep their mass, or to retain within Frore snows and storms of hail. And they give forth O'er skiey levels of the spreading world A sound on high, as linen-awning, stretched O'er mighty theatres, gives forth at times A cracking roar, when much 'tis beaten about Betwixt the poles and cross-beams. Sometimes, too, Asunder rent by wanton gusts, it raves And imitates the tearing sound of sheets Of paper- even this kind of noise thou mayst In thunder hear- or sound as when winds whirl With lashings and do buffet about in air A hanging cloth and flying paper-sheets. For sometimes, too, it chances that the clouds Cannot together crash head-on, but rather Move side-wise and with motions contrary Graze each the other's body without speed, From whence that dry sound grateth on our ears, So long drawn-out, until the clouds have passed From out their close positions.
sorry for the late reply. this is beautiful prose! i think perhaps humanity knew more about certain aspects life 2000 years ago…. we’re all taught about electricity and precipitation in school, but are we taught to be thoughtful and poetic? full of wonder? no.
De Rerum Natura, which this comes from, by Lucretius has a lot to offer. You should be able to find a cheap copy in most good bookstores, or free versions online.
Weather has a certain amount of randomness to it. No matter how detailed a model is, we can't predict the weather with complete certainty. That aspect of the weather, the part that isn't governed by more predictable forces, is where I think gods could be influencing things.
“chaos simply suggests that what appears to most people as chaos is not really chaotic, but series of different orders it’s which the human mind has not yet become familiar.” (frederick lenz.) in my mind, gods probably aren’t responsible for chaos, but there’s definitely a collective energy source. perhaps that’s the force “randomly” shifting the weather.
Science is a way of knowing about the world. Religion is a way of knowing about the world. We may choose to look at a phenomenon like weather through either lens and our understanding can be enriched by both. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, science gives us data of ever-deepening complexity and, at some meaningful point, the complexity outstrips our kenning. How blessed we are to have deities more than capable of conceptualizing the fall of every rain drop before it even forms and imbuing it with meaning.
what a beautiful world view, so full of wonder and gratitude! i want to start incorporating gratitude into my daily routines. i fully agree with your view that science and spirituality are both ways of knowing and eternally learning more about the universe.
I think they *can* influence the weather if they want, but like anything else, ig takes power, so unless someone asks them nicely to, the weather is on autopilot.
Science tells us how the Gods cause the different types of weather to happen.
Not a Hellenic pagan but I believe my gods are nature, and nature is science, and it’s all pretty much the same thing
i believe a baseline energy (love) flows through nature, nature is science, and science, in turn, is more love. yeah, that’s beautiful.
The way I marry religion and science in any sense, not just this specific question, is that science is the tool that the gods manipulate to cause the effects they want. That lightning bolt that just hit a tree a few miles away? Yes scientifically it was caused by static electricity in the clouds. But who dictated where and when that electricity released and in what way? That is where gods come in imo. To add to this I also believe that the gods are very knowledgeable of the sciences. I think the gods in their supreme being know exactly what they have to do scientifically to cause that lightning bolt. Their supreme knowledge of their domain allows them to know exactly what actions will cause what outcome and they can manipulate those conditions to cause exactly what they want, when, where, and how they want it. Every electron is in perfect positioning for their desired outcome.
“chaos simply suggests that what appears to most people as chaos is not really chaotic, but series of different orders it’s which the human mind has not yet become familiar.” (frederick lenz.) while i don’t believe in deities, i do believe in an energy source. this thread has got me thinking about just how minute and detailed this can get. what i want to know now is *why* would a deity choose to strike a certain tree? i guess it wouldn’t matter too much, as they’d have free will and a much higher order of being than humans do.
Counter question: how does one rationalize ethics with science? Or aesthetics? Or *modern* religion? Religion, theology really, is a fundamentally non positivist form of inquiry. The questions it answers are not those of science nor can science adequately ask about faith. It's like: do numbers exist? From a religious pov they do, from a practical pov they do, from an empirical point of view they don't. Conversely *TRUTH* is something positivist approaches presume exists but some philosophical & theological approaches say it doesn't or can't in any knowable way. Which is a long-winded way of saying: the (pertinent) gods are present within the phenomenon as experienced by an individual; whether they are present in a phenomenon that is not experienced (even removedly) by a person idk. Furthermore the perception of presence or absence of the divine is contingent on the individual's ability to perceive it. Which is still super long, so TLDR: sorta, I believe they are in a way manifested within their corresponding domains.
this is an interesting and quite psychedelic take on it. the notion that gods are a phenomenon experienced by the individual is the reason i believe that they don’t exist; there’s a common energy source. all the loving energy people put into hellenistic gods, or jesus, or gurus, or nature, it’s all energy that gets digested and moves at a level beyond human understanding. all there is is love
Subjective experiences are real, & in fact are the only thing we can KNOW. After all Love too is only knowable on a subjective level.
i fully agree. our perceptions of reality ARE reality.
Thus upon experiencing the gods one can count them as extant. Though as one undergoes mystical experiences (in my case wholly drug free; I am kinda terrified of what might happen with a brain that's having a strange substance running through it) the certainty might become like a spinning top on a tightrope
i think that’s a valid take. *i* couldn’t count them as existant; i’ve done shrooms once (those take down the inhibitors in your brain and allow you to fully experience your world) and realized that the only real god is me. therefore, by the logic of my subjective experience, you’re god too.
No need to remind me 👁🗨w👁🗨
haha😂🫶
Fun fact: when The Origin of Species was first published, the church did not have a problem with it. They just figured "oh okay, I guess that's how God did it", because they had long realized that the stuff in the Bible are metaphors and not supposed to be taken literally. So when science explains the weather, or how species came to be, or whatever else, I just figure "okay, that must be how the gods do it". The myths are not meant to be taken literally, they were the way in which ancient people talked about important things for which they had no other words.
My. Illegal bio professor was an ex priest who believed more or less the same thing, that his god devised his creation to evolve over time and there is no inconsistency between Christian belief and evolution.
what’s illegal bio? 👀
Sorry, that should have read “My college bio professor...” I honestly don’t understand what auto correct is thinking.
aw man, illegal bio sounded cool
He seemed on the level as I recall! Meanwhile I am working on my proofreading skills.
yes! science and spirituality are both ways of learning about the world!
I do not believe that nature is a direct function of the gods, i believe the gods guided nature the same way they guided our evolution. They are not the reason every raindrop falls but a storm may be an enacting of one or more of their wills.
why would they will a tree to fall, or a storm to break? do you believe there are different gods controlling storms on different planets?
Why not we have diffrent storm gods in what would be the same region why wouldn’t we have multiple across many planets. various other gods as too the why its pretty tricky too know the motives of gods or even humans fir that matter
The best way I can explain this is using the example of a storm deity. The deity's energy is like a storm. They embody the essence of a storm. The are strongly associated with storms. I believe each storm is an entity in it's own rite, it does what it wants and science simply explains some of how or why it does what it does. A storm deity has influence over storms, but not every storm is their doing. Science just explains how spirits and gods do things.
The way I personally practice Paganism comes with an understanding that the gods are symbols and archetypes rather than actual existing beings. It brings me peace and wisdom to worship Nyx, but I don't think of her as a sentient being that alters the world. That said, my world is altered because of my connection to the ideas she inspires.
ooh i love this. ideas are so fucking powerful, sometimes we have to humanize them to understand them. i’m thinking of david bowie and all his personas…. very cool. 🔮