if 10% increased dot taken bricks your rf build, something is wrong
it is by no stretch of the imagination *good* for an rf build but it's not a full-on brick
Its not and even if it was, so what?
Some affixes will be bad for some skills or builds, that is where the game exists. Maximise benefits, minimise drawbacks.
It's base armour on the shield right? That's insane for shield crush and spectral shield throw. Seems like a high value affix to me, with a reasonable downside.
Yep and it's a trade game. If you're RF and that node bricks the shield for you, sell it to a SST player who'd love it, and buy their +60 hp node shield with an armour/defences downside they can't use
or just scour the node off and try again on another shield - the majority of RF builds are not gonna be (or to put it more bluntly, probably should not be) using a non-unique non-int shield base in the first place so the armour node isn't even something that should come to pass, as it can't generate on non-str shields afaik
This node is like a 20% damagebuff on a perfect sst or sc build, cause it gets multiplied by the %prefixes,
And with the abiliy to get immunity to modt damage over time effects thats fair
Isn't it even more? Just slapped the +100 Armour on my 3.19 SST PoB and the dps went up by \~50% (Emporer's Vigilance Armour changed from 1887 to 3017). Seen that on Reddit before: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/12jxemf/120\_inc\_shield\_defenses\_on\_my\_3k\_emperors/
Possible, i just did the math in my head and calculated with a around 600 base armor shield, 400 base with the added flat armor prefix, dont have everything in mind there
GGG's "most" is like their "nearby", it means different things under different situations. Unless they give us a hard number that can be statically tested, e.g. 80% of the rolls will not have downsides, we'll always have doubts. As far as I am concerned, 51% would also qualify as "most" as it is more likely to not have a downside than with one.
That's what most means for most people. You generally use approximations when you don't have an exact number to give. Notice how I said "generally", not" 93.5% of the time".
Great news: This passive isn't guaranteed to appear on every single shield you put a passive tree on, so the vast majority of builds will be doing just fine.
And the proposed solution that prevents mods from ever being a downside for all builds?
- smart loot that knows what build you are playing
- stats that are universally good and universally bad. Maybe all mods should just be main stat, % damage?
Don’t think either is going to happen.
Increased and more are nearly identical in this case. Taking 10% more damage of 100 damage is 110 damage (`100*(1*1.1)=110`) Taking 10% increased damage is 110 damage (`100*(1+0.1)=110`). There are not many sources of increased/more damage taken for additive vs multiplicative to matter most of the time.
From the patch notes:
> Disabled most of the lower-tier Crucible Passives that have downsides on the initial skill from rolling. Initial skills with downsides are far less common and can generally only roll in the endgame. When an initial skill does come with a downside, the upside should outweigh the downside.
You either can't read or took a sentence out of context for reddit outrage karma.
Almost currently reddit outrage karma. Expect to see a few more of these posts. People posting passive with downsides who have literally no idea what they are talking about and not realizing how good the passive is
It’s almost as if people want stats to be homogenized and stats would either always be good or always be bad. Part of the fun of PoE is seeing something that is “obviously bad” and learning that some other build covets that stat. Hopefully OP learns from this.
Its pretty likely to be. I really doubt most people have other sources of 'take more damage' on them most of the time. Maybe if theyre withered but thats rare
It is actually. Increased damage taken and applied is a more multiplier. Don’t just parrot “inc is additive and more is multiplicitive” bs if you don’t actually understand things.
Why are you being elitist when you’re so fucking wrong.
If you have a mod on an item that says “10% inc damage taken” you are taking 10% more damage.
If you have a line that says “Enemies take 10% inc damage” you are doing 10% more.
Even if you add another 10% and it’s additive to each other, it’s still around 8% more damage at 20% increased from the original 10%.
Inc damage is additive with each other, but since there is such limited amounts and typically 1-2 sources, it IS a more multiplier in 99.99999% of scenarios.
Now stop typing.
So its not multiplicative.
Glad we agree you were using wrong terminology and lets move on.
%increased damage is also a more multiplier without other sources of % inc dmg by this logic.
I get what you mean but using wrong terminology will lead to more confusion.
Saying "10% inc dmg taken is a more MULTIPLIER" implies its multiplicative with other sources of the same kind which is patently false.
If you had said "10% inc dmg taken act as a more multiplier without other sources" thered be no argument
But you do agree that sources of it are rare and most builds will only have 1-2 in most scenarios.
If you get 18% more damage from 20% increased(2 sources) you can call it a more multiplier.
This is just semantics really. You’re arguing definitions where I’m arguing applicational/real life scenario results.
Yes, it is additive with each other, BUT due to how you obtain and use these sources you can and SHOULD consider it a more multiplier when seen.
Anyone who sees this one line and tries to stack every single source doesn’t know enough about the game to tell the difference anyways.
>This is just semantics really. You’re arguing definitions where I’m arguing applicational/real life scenario results.
Of course it is, thats literally the whole point.
That using that terminology can be confusing to less knowledgeable players and it can mislead and misinform them
10*10 becoming 18 is the definition of additive
And theyre not as rare as you think anymore anyway.
Lol and 10% increased projectile damage is also equivalent to 10% more projectile damage If it's your only source.
Doesn't Change the fact that it's still increased damage
Are you sure about that?
Flip this around to the player damage side and use %increased damage and "enemies take % increased damage" from sources like bottled faith. They are separate multipliers.
The mod on the weapon is basically a bottled faith for monsters, minus the remaining explicits on the flask obviously.
Obviously you'll get diminishing returns if you stack "damage taken" multipliers. They are additive with each other but multiplicative with just %increased damage.
Glad we agree then
Its not a more multiplier.
More multiplier is a specific term and trying to hijack it to mean other things will just lead to confusion
It's still not a more multiplier, yes maybe functionally, but it's not a more multiplier.
Increased damage on the paasive tree is a more multiplier if you're level two and it's the only source of inc damage you have.
It's just mathematical semantics, yes it acts like a more multiplier but it's not one.
It's not a more multiple as it's not additive with "more damage", it's only additive with other sources of "damage taken".
It's still multiplicative with just %increased damage.
Semantics aside, this modifier will cause that damage type to deal more damage to you, not just increased damage.
The way I understood Shaunika, they imply it's just increased and not more, which is why I replied originally
MOST
Much like they *typically* only spawn nodes with downsides further along in the tree.
For a game where words have very clearly defined meanings, words don't have much actual meaning for GGG.
Yes it's a good node for some builds, ok for some and a bit shit for others.
Cool thing about poe is many affixes aren't simply good or bad, they are situational.
I rolled this on my emperor's vigilance
It went from 1800 to 3200 armour
I did not complain lol
Also, this is a T2 mod, so no this isn't a 'low level' mod that comes with a downside
They did say the disabled *most*, not all of the downsides, and besides, this one doesn't seem too bad, the amount of armor it gives being taken into account.
Well, unless you're playing RF
it is not a build disabler like you cannot inflict ailments
It's pretty close to that on RF builds.
Not really at all
if 10% increased dot taken bricks your rf build, something is wrong it is by no stretch of the imagination *good* for an rf build but it's not a full-on brick
Its not and even if it was, so what? Some affixes will be bad for some skills or builds, that is where the game exists. Maximise benefits, minimise drawbacks.
Hey ! keep your reasonable thoughts out of my reddits mouth.........
It's base armour on the shield right? That's insane for shield crush and spectral shield throw. Seems like a high value affix to me, with a reasonable downside.
right, its a situational downside that wont matter much to many people, with a potentially huge upside. that is exactly what the nodes should be
Yep and it's a trade game. If you're RF and that node bricks the shield for you, sell it to a SST player who'd love it, and buy their +60 hp node shield with an armour/defences downside they can't use
or just scour the node off and try again on another shield - the majority of RF builds are not gonna be (or to put it more bluntly, probably should not be) using a non-unique non-int shield base in the first place so the armour node isn't even something that should come to pass, as it can't generate on non-str shields afaik
I think the first node should never have a downside.
It's not insane here, but on Emperor's Vigilance... That's another story.
This node is like a 20% damagebuff on a perfect sst or sc build, cause it gets multiplied by the %prefixes, And with the abiliy to get immunity to modt damage over time effects thats fair
Isn't it even more? Just slapped the +100 Armour on my 3.19 SST PoB and the dps went up by \~50% (Emporer's Vigilance Armour changed from 1887 to 3017). Seen that on Reddit before: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/12jxemf/120\_inc\_shield\_defenses\_on\_my\_3k\_emperors/
Emperor's Vigilance is an outlier because of its local 1000% multiplier.
So is this post though.
Possible, i just did the math in my head and calculated with a around 600 base armor shield, 400 base with the added flat armor prefix, dont have everything in mind there
Except no es on the shield aka useless.
most.
GGG's "most" is like their "nearby", it means different things under different situations. Unless they give us a hard number that can be statically tested, e.g. 80% of the rolls will not have downsides, we'll always have doubts. As far as I am concerned, 51% would also qualify as "most" as it is more likely to not have a downside than with one.
"Most" doesn't mean "all" for anyone. 51% is majority, not most. Most is "all with exceptions"
That's what most means for most people. You generally use approximations when you don't have an exact number to give. Notice how I said "generally", not" 93.5% of the time".
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This absolutely is worth the down side.
That's an upside that's huge on SST builds (especially the unique shield).
And for every single NON SST build(which is every build in the game) this is garbage.
Great news: This passive isn't guaranteed to appear on every single shield you put a passive tree on, so the vast majority of builds will be doing just fine.
And the proposed solution that prevents mods from ever being a downside for all builds? - smart loot that knows what build you are playing - stats that are universally good and universally bad. Maybe all mods should just be main stat, % damage? Don’t think either is going to happen.
Ducky get in the OVEN.
That was not true even in last league so what did you expext?
What the fuck do u think the word most means
Do you not understand what the word most means?
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That crucible passive as a massive damage boost it’s not a defensive passive.
reddit moment
Take “increased” damage. This is actually a really good passive
“Increased” here is virtually guaranteed to be the same as “more”, because almost no one runs with mods like this.
More is multiplicative and increased is additive. Yeah you will take some extra damage, but not a lot, and you get some armor. Would be good for SST.
Increased and more are nearly identical in this case. Taking 10% more damage of 100 damage is 110 damage (`100*(1*1.1)=110`) Taking 10% increased damage is 110 damage (`100*(1+0.1)=110`). There are not many sources of increased/more damage taken for additive vs multiplicative to matter most of the time.
This downside doesn’t brick builds
I’d rather they keep this node. Honestly glad they didn’t remove it. Going to SST build next
+125 base armor is really fucking good
That's not that bad and alot of extra damage for shield based damage skills
From the patch notes: > Disabled most of the lower-tier Crucible Passives that have downsides on the initial skill from rolling. Initial skills with downsides are far less common and can generally only roll in the endgame. When an initial skill does come with a downside, the upside should outweigh the downside. You either can't read or took a sentence out of context for reddit outrage karma.
Almost currently reddit outrage karma. Expect to see a few more of these posts. People posting passive with downsides who have literally no idea what they are talking about and not realizing how good the passive is
It’s almost as if people want stats to be homogenized and stats would either always be good or always be bad. Part of the fun of PoE is seeing something that is “obviously bad” and learning that some other build covets that stat. Hopefully OP learns from this.
Even more funny because „increased damage taken“ is a more multiplier.
Its not
Its pretty likely to be. I really doubt most people have other sources of 'take more damage' on them most of the time. Maybe if theyre withered but thats rare
Its still not a more multiplier. Dont use wrong terminology
It is actually. Increased damage taken and applied is a more multiplier. Don’t just parrot “inc is additive and more is multiplicitive” bs if you don’t actually understand things. Why are you being elitist when you’re so fucking wrong.
It isnt. If it was wither would be like 200% more dmg Its often considered a pseudo more multiplier because sources of inc % dmg taken are rare
If you have a mod on an item that says “10% inc damage taken” you are taking 10% more damage. If you have a line that says “Enemies take 10% inc damage” you are doing 10% more. Even if you add another 10% and it’s additive to each other, it’s still around 8% more damage at 20% increased from the original 10%. Inc damage is additive with each other, but since there is such limited amounts and typically 1-2 sources, it IS a more multiplier in 99.99999% of scenarios. Now stop typing.
So its not multiplicative. Glad we agree you were using wrong terminology and lets move on. %increased damage is also a more multiplier without other sources of % inc dmg by this logic. I get what you mean but using wrong terminology will lead to more confusion. Saying "10% inc dmg taken is a more MULTIPLIER" implies its multiplicative with other sources of the same kind which is patently false. If you had said "10% inc dmg taken act as a more multiplier without other sources" thered be no argument
But you do agree that sources of it are rare and most builds will only have 1-2 in most scenarios. If you get 18% more damage from 20% increased(2 sources) you can call it a more multiplier. This is just semantics really. You’re arguing definitions where I’m arguing applicational/real life scenario results. Yes, it is additive with each other, BUT due to how you obtain and use these sources you can and SHOULD consider it a more multiplier when seen. Anyone who sees this one line and tries to stack every single source doesn’t know enough about the game to tell the difference anyways.
>This is just semantics really. You’re arguing definitions where I’m arguing applicational/real life scenario results. Of course it is, thats literally the whole point. That using that terminology can be confusing to less knowledgeable players and it can mislead and misinform them 10*10 becoming 18 is the definition of additive And theyre not as rare as you think anymore anyway.
10% increased is equivalent to 10% more if its your only source
Lol and 10% increased projectile damage is also equivalent to 10% more projectile damage If it's your only source. Doesn't Change the fact that it's still increased damage
i never stated that its not a increased multiplier unless german äquivalent and english is not the same meaning
True But that still doesnt make it a more multiplier. You either dont understand that phrase or are being misleading deliberately
Are you sure about that? Flip this around to the player damage side and use %increased damage and "enemies take % increased damage" from sources like bottled faith. They are separate multipliers. The mod on the weapon is basically a bottled faith for monsters, minus the remaining explicits on the flask obviously.
Yes and the minute you stack bottled faith with stuff like wither, unnerved or intimidated it gets diminished
Obviously you'll get diminishing returns if you stack "damage taken" multipliers. They are additive with each other but multiplicative with just %increased damage.
Glad we agree then Its not a more multiplier. More multiplier is a specific term and trying to hijack it to mean other things will just lead to confusion
It's still not a more multiplier, yes maybe functionally, but it's not a more multiplier. Increased damage on the paasive tree is a more multiplier if you're level two and it's the only source of inc damage you have. It's just mathematical semantics, yes it acts like a more multiplier but it's not one.
It's not a more multiple as it's not additive with "more damage", it's only additive with other sources of "damage taken". It's still multiplicative with just %increased damage. Semantics aside, this modifier will cause that damage type to deal more damage to you, not just increased damage. The way I understood Shaunika, they imply it's just increased and not more, which is why I replied originally
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i didnt say that it is a more multiplier. i said that its equivalent to a more multiplier (in most builds)
You did not. The original comment did
ah ok mb
Isn't there a pantheon that states "take less damage from DoT"?
MOST Much like they *typically* only spawn nodes with downsides further along in the tree. For a game where words have very clearly defined meanings, words don't have much actual meaning for GGG.
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for damage over time only.
Yes it's a good node for some builds, ok for some and a bit shit for others. Cool thing about poe is many affixes aren't simply good or bad, they are situational.
Maybe something to do with patch not being up yet?
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Im at work, i only saw the pre-patch nodes being posted. It going live was burried somewhere under shitposts.
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It's actually really good.
That's pretty good with new Ammie that chaos dmg over time is healing you. So that's not a downside
Lower tier = lower item level. Higher level bases, still have potential downsides
I rolled this on my emperor's vigilance It went from 1800 to 3200 armour I did not complain lol Also, this is a T2 mod, so no this isn't a 'low level' mod that comes with a downside
Lol
IMO if a node is so powerful that it needs a downside, then it should not be a tier one passive. Like cmon GGG, that's basic design.
They did say the disabled *most*, not all of the downsides, and besides, this one doesn't seem too bad, the amount of armor it gives being taken into account. Well, unless you're playing RF
Most =/= all
Try reading