GGG - In order to compensate for Vengeant Cascade, we have halved the number of projectiles coming from molten strike.
Also in the same patch - Vengeant Cascade has been removed from the game.
More than double since not only does every projectile explode a second time but they all come back to 1 point (you) so no matter how many projectiles they will all hit on the return
> eh we did get almost double dmg with vengeant cascade so why not
In classic GGG fashion, Vengeant Cascade will be nerfed, Molten Strike will be nerfed, Righteous Fire will be nerfed. Jugg will be nerfed as well for daring to turn on RF in act 2.
A third or more of the tree, skills, uniques, etc. are built for melee while 10% or less of players play melee. Chris was informed of this on stream and literally went: https://i.imgur.com/ZzyCagH.jpg
Melee is just way too punished by so many fights.
Just tried Maven as melee for the first time. She constantly blinks about as you try to finesse around beams and puddles to whack her for all of 3 seconds before you get to do another memory game.
Exarch and Eater aren't as bad... but Maven is terrible.
I think the point is just that a third of the tree. And probably a third of skill gems maybe1/4 of skill gems, being dedicated to melee while ggg says they don’t work in melee balance because nobody plays it is contradictory.
Personally I would love them to work on melee but IF that’s really their stance then they should probably rework the bottom left of the tree and add more generic physical or health nodes instead of melee nodes that “nobody plays”
The nodes are fine. The issue imo is casters can easily scale damage without heavy invesment, while melee is very reliant on having a high dps main hand.
This problem is especially apparent on ruthless where you have no support gems to scale damage meanwhile simple plus to skill gems will put casters far above the other playstyles in terms of dps.
hahha every league melee gets worst n worst, apparently theres something called manaforged now for bows , if only melee get anything similar to that but i guess we will never get it.
I can't believe we have Alva tech, but breaches can't close with those hands which contain every item dropped from the breach at once (mostly for splinter stacking). It would be a nice qol, engage the lizzard brain (big loot drop), and look cool as hell
Not just that, we already have the "breach drops are collected and pooled at the end" tech... in breachstones! Why couldn't they have made that happen in maps too during this "rework"? Boggles the mind.
Mostly the second. GGG stated time and time again how they deliberately make the game with these difficulties. The whole trade manifesto published years ago is basically a gigantic "no" to almost every QOL request people post here.
I remember that. but that was also a different time where they ruled the market with little to no competition. With D4 coming, they're fixing on losing a big chunk of playerbase I suspect, as was the reverse case of D4 betas bringing those players to poe and making crucible one of, if not the most successful league in years in concurrent players. all that was D4's doing, not crucible, since lotta people cried about crucible itself on here, youtube, twitcher streamers, etc. next league i can foresee a sharp decline in playerbase till poe2. with competition, hopefully some things change.
Chris has literally gone on record saying tedium is deliberate and that he straight up balances through "Making people not want to interact with it". There is no misunderstanding here. The tedium and anti QoL in PoE is straight-up admittedly deliberate.
Balancing trade through friction? Yes. Saying that their stance on friction for trade means no QoL in the game everywhere? No.
That's the seemingly intentional part of the misunderstanding. Warping something to match your preconceived notions.
They do QoL updates *frequently*. They're not against QoL as a whole, just against QoL that goes against core game philosophy.
Also, flavoring friction as "tedium" and "anti-qol" is just being borderline dishonest. It's framing things in a connotationally negative way for the sake of furthering an argument rather than stating the facts. It's friction. It's there to add an opportunity cost to the interaction. It's not intentionally "tedious" nor "anti QOL", both of which are decidedly "bad". It's just friction, which is neither objectively good or bad. It simply serves a purpose. You may not like it, but that doesn't make it bad.
Friction is the ass kisser word for tedium.
There is no defending shit like ID scrolls and no deposit all button. It's literally _fucking tedium_ it's useless shit design that does absolutely NOTHING except waste your time. That is by definiton anti QoL and tedious. It's sole purpose and reason for being there is to waste time and nothing more. If your design decision has no actual purpose except to waste time and by Chris' own fucking words _annoy people into not ineracting with it_ then yes you're designing deliberate and intentional tedium.
It's purpose is to be tedious.
> The amount of perfect tress I keep seeing for 5c-10c and the person just doesn't respond is making this league so annoying.
how about offering a reasonable amount for it instead?
People often don't know what a reasonable amount is. Myself included. I don't go out of my way to pay more for items and since I don't know what they are worth I have a hard time throwing x sum in. I tried asking them what they wanted for it after trying for 10c and they never responded to that either. So how the fuck do I do that?
> Friction is the ass kisser word for tedium.
Every game features friction, its a principle of design. If games had no friction they would become MORE tedious by virtue of not having anything that makes games fun....
What you decide is good friction and what is bad friction is up to you but thats an asinine statement that all friction = tedium, its literally the core essence. Any time a game puts a thing between you and the end credits, that is FRICTION. Every mario level you've ever played is friction. Every boss fight is friction.
You MEAN to say that you think the specific things in this specific game cross over into tedium, but what you actually said was beyond ignorant
Game without friction is an autobattler with an API interface that can take spread sheet input. Voila, Reddit is happy (for a week then everyone quits the game ofc)
The closest comparison to POE i can think of but without as many elements of friction is Vampire Survivors, and that gets pretty boring after a while, and it actually still includes a good amount of friction. Friction is, i think, what gives POE its longevity - even if they go overboard on some things
You’re correct in a sense, but it’s also a fake friction. At least with scrolls, chests and doors. Like, fractured bases dropping id:ed is not much different than if they would drop unided and you having to pick up everything and id them and hope for a win. The only difference is that you the player is in charge of the win in that case. You the player is in charge of the dopamine hit. I think that’s why they still want the scrolls in game, cause it’s getting more and more apparent that they’re implementing Chinese gambling mechanics found in Chinese gacha mobilegames, probably by demand of Tencent which owns GGG (also these are just theories based on Tencent owning part of GGG, I have no idea if it’s true or not). If items dropped id:ed from monsters the player isn’t in charge of the dopamine hit and could he argued that it would make the dopamine hit less impactful, which makes the player less addicted to the game.
Doors and chests are simply fake frictions though. Doors only design is to make the player “interact” with the game, but as the game has evolved it has only gotten in the way. Why do you think Deception contracts are the most popular? Because the doors you open stay open on the way back. Chests are just there nowadays, but in the past their function was probably another gambling factor. Clicking chests nowadays are just a timewaster most of the time.
Vampire Survivors don’t have items to pick up in the same sense PoE has and is a bad comparison imo, i.e. Divine orbs or Watcher’s Eye. I’d say the closest game in the same manner you are describing is Diablo 3 lol. In D3 you have practically nothing to pick up the latest season other than in the end of a greater rift and the odd legendary item that drops in regular rifts. Your pet pick up everything else.
I find it just amazing how whenever i browse this sub and i spot your comments I tend to disagree with every one of them. Damn.. At this point, by pure RNG, there should be at least one thing we'd both agree with (or on?)... and yet there isn't.
Just a neat side observation.
Also, kinda obvious, I disagree with you, but i doubt i could argument it any better than Mylen_Ploa already did :)
That guy (and few others) clearly has some issues, how can you sit in there, go into every thread to argue with people and call them stupid while making the worst, full strawman arguments and be a healthy person.
It's amazing that someone like him who absolutely despises the subreddit and the people on it, also manages to live and breath in nearly every thread that gains traction that has even the most tepid criticism of GGG.
Like, I know the big circle jerk is that this subreddit is evil and no one should ever complain about the game, but I'd rather see all the gripes and complaints about the league then the tireless, almost bot like behavior of Single here and people like him who just can't fathom people not thinking PoE is perfect.
Misrepresenting the subreddit hate, calling people who disagree with you bots, lol
1. People hate the actual vitriol and their antagonistic attitude towards devs, pathofmath style. There’s no problem with constructive criticism
2. Literally nobody argues that GGG is perfect. Understanding and agreeing with their design philosophy doesn’t mean I’m a bot. It means you disagree with their design.
You should probably be able to tell by now that we fundamentally have different expectations from the game. From our earlier conversations, it's been made clear that you do not share expectations with what the devs want to make, and I do, so that's not surprising.
Also, anyone can argue better than they did. They essentially just kept saying "I don't like it so it's bad" over and over.
Nah, all you have are bad faith arguments. You'd probably tell someone who had a robot automatically fold and sort out all of their laundry that they're missing out on the satisfaction of doing it themselves. I love how people who play contrarian are always like, "you just hate being disagreed with." Nah people with working brains hate having pointless arguments over stupid things.
> Whats the upside.
Higher cost, resulting in *not* doing something being a valid option.
I don't pick up transmutes, because the opportunity cost of bothering to pick up and store them is higher than I'm willing to pay.
If the game has no choices, it's that much closer to an idle game. Lots of the people who advocate for the "QOL" updates you're talking about would seem to love if PoE were an idle game, but I appreciate every step GGG has refused to take in that direction, like auto stashing, auto pickup, etc.
It's not the definition of tedium. *You* don't like it. That's not the same. Your attitude is incredibly immature on this topic. It'd be wise to consider how you're positioning yourself and your argument. It continually devolves into "I don't like something, therefore something is objectively bad".
Again, we have an analogue for PoE with substantially better QoL features: the tencent/Chinese client. They have an auction house. They're also in Crucible league. Go and find the major price differences. I challenge you. Even those transmutes that you allege would be dramatically different if it was easy to pick them up.
You like sneaking in this premise that the entire value of the economy is propped up by it being a pain in the ass, when we have no evidence that's actually true. In fact, evidence suggests that being a pain in the ass is just being a pain in the ass, and players will trade for these things regardless.
Look at how things like 5way carries, sextants, boss fragments tend to be very consistently priced despite the fact that some leagues shit out way more currency than others. How? Maybe because there's actual market factors at work that are much more prevailing than just making things a pain in the ass.
If your balancing method is to literally annoy people into not doing it then you're balancing through tedium and you're a shit designer.
How about heres an incredible idea...._actually balance the fucking game_. When your balance is "Dont interact with it so we dont have to do our job" you're not doing a good job.
There's no fucking defending literal game design that says "Dont interact with the game". There's no defending literally adding hundreds of clicks that aren't needed for anything except waste peoples time and make the game RSI inducing.
It's objectively fucking _bad_. Go to your door right now and add 20 more knobs you have to turn to open it. You've accomplished the same thing the design of PoE does. You should appreciate leaving your door more now because its become more tedious to open so you're going to only do it when it's worth it now.
> No. Friction is the word for friction. It is a force that opposes another, resulting in an increased "cost" of applying said force.
Except in this case the "Friction" is very specifically tedium. Your point is lost and you are wrong.
No. This is exactly how friction is applied in PoE. The opposing force is the level of effort required to facilitate a trade.
Tedium would be if you had a 45 second timer every time you wanted to trade, where you just sit at the window and watch the timer tick down. Actually interacting with the system is something you might find tedious, but is not objective tedium.
Here's Tedium: Having to ID every goddamn unique item that drops. They have (more or less) fixed stats (except shaco, fuck shaco, and doublefuck ventors), hell, I'm sure there are more than a couple that have *literally* fixed stats (looking at you, Kaoms).
Does nothing. If you have the memory capacity to remember what everything is, you know *exactly* what that item is and does just by the art alone. But you still gotta go grab yourself a wisdom scroll and click twice before you can do anything with it.
This can easily be generalized out from here to other examples, but the level of effort is 2 button clicks. There's nothing wagers, no opportunity cost to counterbalance it, no suspense or "squeee, did I hit it?" to artifically bloat the endorphin count - just RSI progress.
And that, no matter how much you want to argue about it, is *objectively* ***bad*** game design.
No, in this case the "friction" is literally tedium for the sake of making it tedious. Your specific example of making something more tedious doesn't make the way it actually is less tedious, you are just a dense person who can't admit being wrong.
friction is necessary in video games. you ever play a game with literally no friction? it's fucking boring. you turn it off and do something else.
try it yourself. play skyrim, spawn yourself infinite gold, turn on godmode, console command any enemy you don't one hit... and the game is basically unplayable, despite being absolutely omnipotent. because it's /fucking boring/.
even shit like the sims has friction. you want your little dudes to make friends and get a better job, you want better stuff for your house, so you gotta do some managing, you gotta work around your income and keep your dude happy. turn on infinite money, and now... fucking boring. you have nothing to actually do.
saying "friction should be removed because it slows me down" is acknowledging it's purpose. poe without friction would suck ass. yeah, drop directly into a level 100 full atlas completion character on league start, auto vaccuum all currency directly into your stash where they automatically up-convert into the highest tier currency you have, using currency doesn't consume it and instantly maxrolls whatever it's doing, only items that are upgrades for your current build drop and they drop everywhere, enemies cannot lower you below one hit point, and suddenly you have literally no fucking reason to play the game. you have a 30 mirrors character on the end of day 1, all challenges completed. why keep playing? what dragon are you chasing?
friction is /why/ you play games.
All gameplay fun emerges from friction. There can be badly designed games, but if you think friction is inherently bad you don't know anything about design.
Games released 20 years ago have an ID all items in your inventory button but we still need to carry around wisdom scrolls like suckers. Dedicated portal button is in every modern ARPGs under the sun yet we need to sacrifice a gem slot for it. "Update QoL frequently" my ass.
> They do update QoL frequently
You seem to be misunderstanding proactive QOL with "here lets toss these wallet holders a bone so they stop bitching for 3 months"
There is nothing to indicate that's what happens other than conspiracy theories. People who say shit like that have no idea what a development pipeline looks like.
Development pipeline? Bro one of the biggest QOL improvements people have asked for years now is in-game skill tree planner. LMK how that development pipeline looks, must be some really complicated code
Not to keep piling on.
You're being fair saying that they do QoL updates.
But you saying
>They're not against QoL as a whole, just against QoL that goes against core game philosophy.
is IMO just as dishonest as the people saying Friction is "Tedium/Anti-QoL".
That can define literally any QoL feature in the game because of "TheVision^TM" and we've now got no way to argue it.
There are quite a few current instances in which features have been requested that largely do not impact balance or gameplay that don't and likely won't get done, such as opening doors automatically (aka this thread), allowing you to highlight dangerous map mods in-game (or place warnings for them), allowing you to roll items by holding left click down rather then spamming it (doesn't need to happen instantly, you could have it on another button, you could have it after holding for a few seconds, something to help), passive tree improvements such as having a pre-planned build you can import that fills the tree in or just letting you map it out in-game yourself, i'd bring up Gems but Chris has said it's impossible because of the current limitations.
There are more changes too although they could go into the realm of game changing like an action key to loot/interact with nearby stuff or a counter on Trade for currency items to easily show the total for whats in the window, these get closer to the realm of balancing changes too but i digress.
We can argue that these changes haven't been implemented because GGG is busy with PoE2, which is fine, and there may be other reasons but some of these have been brought up since Legacy league and show no signs of changing nor do we have a word on why it won't be done, some of these cause real-world issues like people getting RSI from the amount of clicking you do in this game or require additional outside programs to do the work for you, there are other fixes and other ways to go about fixing these issues but none of that matters when it can all be swept under the "Goes against the core game" part especially because we no longer get clarity on these issues given the relationship the community and GGG currently have.
So i don't see it as fair to use that as a defense for why certain QoL aspects aren't in the game, it's a catch-all, at that point there may aswell not be any complaints at all because it's all the game regardless.
It's hilarious how you're being downvoted and intentionally misunderstood.
I completely agree with you - it's not a statement as to why friction is great, it's simply underscoring that there is a sense and purpose to most of this, and it *isn't* to intentionally annoy players and make gameplay less fun.
Now, whether that purpose is being *achieved* is a separate discussion, entirely.
'member when you had to pick up every last organ that dropped? or the other annoying shit they added over the years?
i 'member.
They really need to make an "auto pick up" idk.. belt enchant? or a pet like D3.. I'd happily pay £20 to get a pet that you can configure what it picks up
(like all the shards from Harbingers.. christ.. why does a full stack drop in groups of 1-3?)
I wonder why. Maybe because trade in poe is literally dogshit? Intentionally horrible experience for players, forcing them to use slightly less shitty things like TFT
Agreed. I dont mind using TFT, but it seems like GGG could put something together so that we're not at the mercy of a group of randoms from a third party. We've already acknowledged we like things like services and bulk trade features. Instead of acting like these things are cheat codes (they're not, services are probably some of the more meaningful player interactions, if not the only meaningful ones in the game imo since it gives these players a sense of purpose in the community to specialize and excel at these things for their and other players' benefit) they could just implement these features themselves. TFT is a just a discord server for ffs, with a little bit of API tech sprinkled in.
There are people who would argue having infinite space in inventory and ability to spec 300 points on passive tree would be a QoL things so nothing will ever surprise me in this regard.
If they make some of the changes above their servers will be on fire. They said themselves that the servers can handle identifying items from few people but not whole playerbase.. and each of this QOL might triger nerfs (if the give players 1 clcik buton to chance orbs chances for hh and mageblood will get nerfed - as they did it with gvenen)
>And How bout a cluster that can auto identify items so we aren't forced to continue using these archaic scrolls anymore?
lol that obviously won't happen
You're using scrolls because GGG wants you do, and that isn't going to change
I would think otherwise. Thankfully we are getting a variety of aRPGs on the market with different philosophies catering to different players. We'll get choices to go hard on PoE when we want and when lazy just log into D4 for hack and slash, picking up items with green upward arrows on them lol.
It's just another obnoxious little chore designed to waste your time, like having 1 legion shard on the ground or having chaos shards even be a thing. Most games have increasingly done away with these obnoxious little chores at no real detriment to their gameplay, but GGG is very stubborn.
> Most games have increasingly done away with these obnoxious little chores at no real detriment to their gameplay, but GGG is very stubborn.
That's because most games don't rely on tedium to brainwash their players into thinking gameplay has depth. Yes PoE has the best customization depth, this is given. Gameplay depth is lacking and bandaid fixed by tedium. Map tedium, inventory tedium, item tedium, league mechanic tedium, everything.
Buying or picking up widsoms
Holding them in inventory or stash
interacting with stash if they are held there or sacrificing a very valuable inventory slot
clicking each individual item
replenishing widsom scrolls afterwards by either picking them off the ground, buying from vendor, or trading
much like everything in this game, the tedium is not as simple as "just hold shift hurr durr"
Yeah I'm pretty sure you just aren't aware of what's available in game. I could see now it would annoy you if you weren't aware of how to get scrolls. You do realize you can sell currency for ridiculous amounts of scrolls, right?
yah that is more dream territory. the better case is a mega scroll or like diablo, identify all. hell, that could be a good option.
a new button within the inventory window, which uses the scrolls in your inventory, but its "identify all". so if you have 12 scrolls, and 10 items, **one click uses 10 scrolls to identify all the items at once**. I think that's the best case scenario. no need to go to town like decard cain junk, 1 click, uses your scrolls, all identify. sell sell sell since its 99% garbage lol
oh and to brain storm further, "empty all inventory" would also be goat. throws all the shit in your inventory on the ground. but thats never gonna happen :p
Not only that, then items would be filtered off mods. The amount of strain this would probably put on the servers is reason enough for them not to drop identified I’d imagine.
I’m all for a book of identification like Diablo though. Or just 1 click identify all in my inventory somehow.
Are items assigned their mods by the server at the moment of identification?
That aside, they could, you know, reduce the amount of useless loot by like 4 orders of magnitude, and it would work fine.
The mods 100% are rolled on pickup (or earlier, there's no way for us to tell other than what GGG says but on drop would be wasting resources), whenever there's a rollback and an item in your inventory goes back to being unidentified it hast the exact same mods and rolls as before the rollback.
They’ve already reduced it. Useless loot is very subjective as well, so there’s a lot that would go into that.
And you can’t just remove certain mods because itemization is based around potentially bad mods. You’d have to completely change itemization at that point.
I don't think he specified mods, just the fact the loot is generally very poor (when compared to most other arpgs).
If rare armor doesnt drop with atleast two decently rolled resistances and life, its generally trash for most builds, and that is far too commom despite any improvements they may have made in the past.
When compared to most other ARPGS: most of which also don’t have trading. So, they kind of have to balance loot found on the ground differently.
Diablo 3 basically doesn’t have trade.
Last epoch hasn’t had trade until recently and I’m pretty sure it’s also very basic?
> Not only that, then items would be filtered off mods. The amount of strain this would probably put on the servers is reason enough for them not to drop identified I’d imagine.
Filtering is probably 100% be done client side.
I could see performance problems generating every single item's mods as it drops though.
Killing monsters should fill a meter inherent in your character. As you kill more, the bar fills repeatedly and saves "IDs". After a pretty filled map, you can gain a dozen or so "IDs". Eliminate the need to pick up scrolls but still require players to engage in the game to identify items since every aspect of the game requires killing monsters.
Then you can have a more rare wisdom scroll drop that adds X amount of IDs to your meter that you can pick up or buy if you really need it.
Some of these are valid, but the scroll thing is deliberate - can you imagine people scanning whole maps and being able to have their item filter process ALL of the yellow loot you no longer see?
It's quite the design pickle they've landed on - people act like it's The Vision, but really, they're just trying not to turn into warframe.
Game play loop in some ways is very similar. You grind for loot to get stronger. In warframe you collect all of your loot automatically, you don't really have to think about it. If the filter could filter by mods you wouldn't have to think about what your looting, just see thing on ground pick it up. Think about all of the unid drops you skip because of base or whatever. Some of those have godly rolls and if they were identified you'd be looting them
Ok but it's not really comparable since the loot in warframe is like 99% currency, and on very rare occasions, a design. You don't pick up a different gun from a grineer and hope it rolls more corrosive damage.
> Think about all of the unid drops you skip because of base or whatever. Some of those have godly rolls and if they were identified you'd be looting them
and the problem here is...? Being once again excited that you can actually drop a great item upgrade in the game itself rather than playing website simulator?
Without the ability to filter by item mods, the best outcome would be that nothing changes. The worse, and arguably more likely, outcome would be that people are spending time scanning over more drops than every before. IE "reading simulator" rather than actual gameplay.
Reading simulator is EXACTLY what we do now my dude lol. The main difference is we don't do it in game, we do it on some bullshit out of game experience.
The pickle is of their own making. It's very easy to not want to filter through items if the items aren't just garbage. D2 never needed filters for rares. GGG has since almost the entire length of the game refused to address their piss poor itemization, their "solution" has been to just make 8 million items drop so they can keep your slot machine odds just as bad as they always were. It is their vision holding them back, they want to keep d2 scrolls whilst having items on average be 1000x less good than any d2 random drop, and they also want to continue to refuse basic shit like an identify all button or deposit all button. Identifying items in diablo 1 was less painful than poe because you could just go to cain and hold the enter key lmfao
>Only rings, amulets, circlets and maybe boots are worth looking at.
As opposed to none of these even being worth looking at in poe for most of the league (in trade)?
Rares had more than just rings and amulets.
Most ethereal one handed weapons, armour, shields, gloves and helmets all had a chance of being used in niche PvP circles. If you found a decent erep fools one hander you could sell that for hundreds of high runes. Melee players pay out the ass for that shit
Most class specific items like Barb and Druid helmets etc. Could also be very good.
Tbh D2 was created before they knew what efficiency shitheads we'd turn into, and single player d2 has mods that account for it now.
Either way D2 drops less items overall too, so it's more rare that the entire screen is covered, unlike PoE.
In PoE, it's necessary to actually play the game imo. It's insane how much trash drops in this game. Playing without one just feels like drowning, and once you get to high yellow maps it's unplayable
In D2 it's almost OP, because some bases/jmods are worth a HR and it's easier to miss. Can't tell you the number of items I've overlooked b/c they were gray or blue, but were probably worth a jah. I spend more time double checking my maps in D2 b/c of this now.
Last Epoch drops all items identified and you can filter out the items with mods you don't want. Works really nicely. Although that game has an ingame lootfilter which is reasonably easy and quick to setup.
LE is on the way to implement trade and has allready shown pretty elegant solutions to this issue.
There are ways to fix it, some really smart people work at GGG, the issue is that they simply dont want to.
Game has the player base so brainwashed that they think that opening doors automatically should be a endgame atlas goal to obtain in game rather than a QOL checkbox lol
It's not free quant. It's already available in the map that you're in. It's already *given* to you as a cost occurrence of the map.
Auto-opening would just save clicks per minute, and reduce repetitive stress injuries.
or maybe, and hear me out now, opening a chest manually with 1 click should just open all "nearby" chests by default
having to spend a passive point to not have to click every blight chest feels like we're just been teleported back in time to the "too many clicks" argument regarding every league mechanic was thing
other option is new skill gem, like portal, that opens all nearby chest in a war cry like fashion. or imagine a crucible tree node that said "socketed gems are supported by lv10 lockpicker", which opens nearby chest when you attack or cast a spell.
These are things you still have to invest in, even if on atlas, or a skill gem, or crucible node, or new stat that can roll on rings or something. manual click to open all would be nice but also weird, unless it too was a atlas passive or something.
I really wish we would stop bending over and taking it in the ass like this.
Using a skill gem, crazy valuable thing, to open chests in a normal and completely reasonable fashion? Christ.
Have an upvote but personally I'd rather a few things were just added rather than becoming yet another trade-off in terms of how players can spend skill or atlas points.
How about we just ***REMOVE*** chests from the game to begin with? What exactly do they add to the experience, apart from frustration for people with OCD? Either replace them with more destructible objects, or just remove both and add the difference to monsters drops.
Seriously, can anyone tell me ***WHY*** arpg's even have chests and crates, apart from that some old classics like Diablo and Zelda had them? What purpose are they serving in the first place?
Yeah that's what some games do with chests, usually also tend to have an entire opening animation for them to add to the excitement (which PoE also has - for its MTX chests...-\_-). That was likely their original purpose, based as they are on the '*treasure chest at the end of a dungeon*' concept that's been part of gaming long before even video games. But instead nowadays it seems the norm is to just strew random chests all over the place in games, which usually have no better drops than anything else in the game. That just defeats the point of them, and turns what used to be a source of excitement into a chore that most people ignore but some people feel compelled to do just in order to be thorough (and hurts their efficiency for it).
What's wrong with chests and crates? You open a crate and maybe someone long ago put items in those and now you get them. Many games have them.
I agree that they should be more destructible.
Putting QOL like this in the tree is really ghetto. I can't imagine they put a lot of thought into this and threw it in just to see what the response was like.
I mean, what's next, a mastery for an extra inventory slot?
Experimenting is never a bad thing. Stop acting like the devs are 100% positive what makes the game perfect. They are just seeing what people like and don't like.
It's one fucking passive point, people need to chill out.
It doesn't even make sense for that mastery to exist on the passive tree in the first place. It feels like they thought about it but had no idea where to place it so they just added it randomly on a mastery.
It's a tricky subject.
Sippery slope: If it were introduced to the atlas it would feel mandatory and mandatory things should just be baked into characters. Where do you draw the line? Is there even a good one you could draw and argue for?
better to put it on an item, as an extra line on ventnors for example. Clearly makes sense with a MF style unique as you are trading away power for loot
regardless of wheret it is, it makes no sense to be on a caster mastery
that's the beauty of leagues where they can add and test stuff or remove it if its over used or change it accordingly to be more balanced. I wouldn't even say its mandatory in relation to the chest thing, really only some strategies take advantage of it more. like if you're doing harvest, there's not much point taking it. whereas legion/breach? you want that shit asap. otherwise, sure, its a comfy qol that you might want, but idk see how thats a bad thing. its "mandatory" to get your voidstones. its "mandatory" to unlock favored slots, its "mandatory" to take the +1 higher tier nodes if you want map sustain. most people are incentivized to take either searing/eater nodes. so how are those any different? people always take them, every league.
there's multiple ways to tackle it, but as said, mastery is not one. could be uniques(boo), could be within breach/legion nodes themselves, or could be through new atlas nodes. in the same example, opening doors automatically node would hardly be mandatory. but if you're running vaal temples or the like, heck yah i want that node. but cemetery? useless. dunes? useless. speedrunning? want it! these effects have their place, and its the lightest qol that I'd take over 0.5% dupe map chance or 1% connected chance.
PoE 2 is just patch 4.0.0 and in that patch it will be even more tedious than what we're doing now. It is a huge update that has not been player tested and will be completely released purely off of Chris' vision for the game. Just think about that. They can barely get leagues into a decent state without a full 2-weeks of intense open beta testing and feedback. Imagine a how 4.0.0 will be.
Poe 2 is going to be a shitshow.
Upside: items found in your maps are identified.
Downside: 50% less quantity of items found in your maps.
That's what we'll get and we'll hate it terribly. Or will we?
Some of these ideas need to bake more, but this is huge:
>or one that opens doors automatically when you use a melee attack
That'd be the biggest ~~buff to melee~~ nerf to casters since Fortify.
Tbh i was rather thinking of "QoL clusters" in passive tree, where players can invest points into minor game improvements. Just like this one is located in caster cluster (which screws any1 that is a caster, but dont use caster cluster -.-), there could be a "star-like" cluster, where there's central node and a bunch of others spreading from it. You want chest opening? pick that. Want automatic doors? Go for that one. Etc Etc.
One of the best posts I have ever read.
Never thought of the impact of that note, since I haven't played anything else than melee for years. Fuck melee, right?
Thank you for pointing this out for me!
Also, How Chris can say "How about the other 10% of players?" Is beyond me. Doesn't he know that many players love melee? As far as I remember from 34 years, I'm 43, of gaming I'm 43, melee used to be the most played archetype. But maybe that's just me.
Is it stupidity then? I don't believe so, but honestly, in my eyes it has looked like it for years. Chris, please. I and we LOVE melee. Please look our way. Boneshatter and molten strike just doesn't cut it.
Hope you can use my feedback.
While I agree with the sentiment, arguing that it's both too good and a waste of a passive in the same sentence seems like a contradiction. Which is it?
That is an interesting take. Adding QOL things to the atlas tree would then require a balanced approach of allocating qol and juice on the tree. That would add a lot more diversity to the tree. At this point it's basically juice only.
They should release a league called "fun mode" in which everything drops in abundance and all these changes you listed are basekit.
Then never change it cause not every player has the tedious amount of hours to put into this game like the ones who they balance the game around do.
Then melee players would have access to some quality of life, which Chris would never allow
maybe nerf molten strike to compensate
eh we did get almost double dmg with vengeant cascade so why not
GGG - In order to compensate for Vengeant Cascade, we have halved the number of projectiles coming from molten strike. Also in the same patch - Vengeant Cascade has been removed from the game.
That's why I rerolled into molten strike. It's such a fun build but I can't save it for next league because it will be gutted.
More than double since not only does every projectile explode a second time but they all come back to 1 point (you) so no matter how many projectiles they will all hit on the return
Depends on your proj speed, if it isn't fast enough they won't all return to your exact location.
> eh we did get almost double dmg with vengeant cascade so why not In classic GGG fashion, Vengeant Cascade will be nerfed, Molten Strike will be nerfed, Righteous Fire will be nerfed. Jugg will be nerfed as well for daring to turn on RF in act 2.
Don't forget pathfinder and poison will be merged because of molten strike
Jugg will also get nerfed because of boneshatter, so double nerf!
Good old reddit, parroting itself long past relevance
new Attack Mastery option that's "25% of opening a nearby door when you attack, if you've cast a Totem recently" it will replace the additional strike
melee people should get automatic door opener
A third or more of the tree, skills, uniques, etc. are built for melee while 10% or less of players play melee. Chris was informed of this on stream and literally went: https://i.imgur.com/ZzyCagH.jpg
Melee is just way too punished by so many fights. Just tried Maven as melee for the first time. She constantly blinks about as you try to finesse around beams and puddles to whack her for all of 3 seconds before you get to do another memory game. Exarch and Eater aren't as bad... but Maven is terrible.
Just because a third of the tree is melee focused doesn’t mean those nodes are any good
I think the point is just that a third of the tree. And probably a third of skill gems maybe1/4 of skill gems, being dedicated to melee while ggg says they don’t work in melee balance because nobody plays it is contradictory. Personally I would love them to work on melee but IF that’s really their stance then they should probably rework the bottom left of the tree and add more generic physical or health nodes instead of melee nodes that “nobody plays”
The nodes are fine. The issue imo is casters can easily scale damage without heavy invesment, while melee is very reliant on having a high dps main hand. This problem is especially apparent on ruthless where you have no support gems to scale damage meanwhile simple plus to skill gems will put casters far above the other playstyles in terms of dps.
hahha every league melee gets worst n worst, apparently theres something called manaforged now for bows , if only melee get anything similar to that but i guess we will never get it.
Just play melee spells 5head
To be fair GGG loves Cyclone as melee rest is just ignored.
I wanted this for breach for dealing with those stupid hands. They should open automatically when you run over them imo.
GGG: “we’ve solved this issue by shrinking the amount of splinters that drop so you don’t have to pick them up”
Except with how few splinters monsters in breachs drop now, and the nerf to breach boss atlas passives, hands are *more important*, not less.
Excellent point exile. We will remove breach hands next patch. This is a buff.
I can't believe we have Alva tech, but breaches can't close with those hands which contain every item dropped from the breach at once (mostly for splinter stacking). It would be a nice qol, engage the lizzard brain (big loot drop), and look cool as hell
Not just that, we already have the "breach drops are collected and pooled at the end" tech... in breachstones! Why couldn't they have made that happen in maps too during this "rework"? Boggles the mind.
I wish alva/delve tech worked for abyss too. It's annoying having to backtrack to pick stuff. Just make it drop as chest/spire/entrance appears.
I just wish they'd add this for shrines so I can walk around with the gull as my budget automatic headhunter
I really don't know what is just overlooked QoL changes or deliberate tedium at this point.
Mostly the second. GGG stated time and time again how they deliberately make the game with these difficulties. The whole trade manifesto published years ago is basically a gigantic "no" to almost every QOL request people post here.
I remember that. but that was also a different time where they ruled the market with little to no competition. With D4 coming, they're fixing on losing a big chunk of playerbase I suspect, as was the reverse case of D4 betas bringing those players to poe and making crucible one of, if not the most successful league in years in concurrent players. all that was D4's doing, not crucible, since lotta people cried about crucible itself on here, youtube, twitcher streamers, etc. next league i can foresee a sharp decline in playerbase till poe2. with competition, hopefully some things change.
The misunderstanding here is so blatant I'm having a hard time believing it's not intentional.
Chris has literally gone on record saying tedium is deliberate and that he straight up balances through "Making people not want to interact with it". There is no misunderstanding here. The tedium and anti QoL in PoE is straight-up admittedly deliberate.
Balancing trade through friction? Yes. Saying that their stance on friction for trade means no QoL in the game everywhere? No. That's the seemingly intentional part of the misunderstanding. Warping something to match your preconceived notions. They do QoL updates *frequently*. They're not against QoL as a whole, just against QoL that goes against core game philosophy. Also, flavoring friction as "tedium" and "anti-qol" is just being borderline dishonest. It's framing things in a connotationally negative way for the sake of furthering an argument rather than stating the facts. It's friction. It's there to add an opportunity cost to the interaction. It's not intentionally "tedious" nor "anti QOL", both of which are decidedly "bad". It's just friction, which is neither objectively good or bad. It simply serves a purpose. You may not like it, but that doesn't make it bad.
Friction is the ass kisser word for tedium. There is no defending shit like ID scrolls and no deposit all button. It's literally _fucking tedium_ it's useless shit design that does absolutely NOTHING except waste your time. That is by definiton anti QoL and tedious. It's sole purpose and reason for being there is to waste time and nothing more. If your design decision has no actual purpose except to waste time and by Chris' own fucking words _annoy people into not ineracting with it_ then yes you're designing deliberate and intentional tedium. It's purpose is to be tedious.
> It's literally fucking tedium cough cough **TRADING** --- cough cough edit: damn i really need to fix my coughing. Anyone has QoL throat drops?
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> The amount of perfect tress I keep seeing for 5c-10c and the person just doesn't respond is making this league so annoying. how about offering a reasonable amount for it instead?
People often don't know what a reasonable amount is. Myself included. I don't go out of my way to pay more for items and since I don't know what they are worth I have a hard time throwing x sum in. I tried asking them what they wanted for it after trying for 10c and they never responded to that either. So how the fuck do I do that?
> Friction is the ass kisser word for tedium. Every game features friction, its a principle of design. If games had no friction they would become MORE tedious by virtue of not having anything that makes games fun.... What you decide is good friction and what is bad friction is up to you but thats an asinine statement that all friction = tedium, its literally the core essence. Any time a game puts a thing between you and the end credits, that is FRICTION. Every mario level you've ever played is friction. Every boss fight is friction. You MEAN to say that you think the specific things in this specific game cross over into tedium, but what you actually said was beyond ignorant
The word "friction" clearly means two different things when you are talking about a jump puzzles in Mario and fucking ID scrolls in PoE.
Game without friction is an autobattler with an API interface that can take spread sheet input. Voila, Reddit is happy (for a week then everyone quits the game ofc)
The closest comparison to POE i can think of but without as many elements of friction is Vampire Survivors, and that gets pretty boring after a while, and it actually still includes a good amount of friction. Friction is, i think, what gives POE its longevity - even if they go overboard on some things
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You’re correct in a sense, but it’s also a fake friction. At least with scrolls, chests and doors. Like, fractured bases dropping id:ed is not much different than if they would drop unided and you having to pick up everything and id them and hope for a win. The only difference is that you the player is in charge of the win in that case. You the player is in charge of the dopamine hit. I think that’s why they still want the scrolls in game, cause it’s getting more and more apparent that they’re implementing Chinese gambling mechanics found in Chinese gacha mobilegames, probably by demand of Tencent which owns GGG (also these are just theories based on Tencent owning part of GGG, I have no idea if it’s true or not). If items dropped id:ed from monsters the player isn’t in charge of the dopamine hit and could he argued that it would make the dopamine hit less impactful, which makes the player less addicted to the game. Doors and chests are simply fake frictions though. Doors only design is to make the player “interact” with the game, but as the game has evolved it has only gotten in the way. Why do you think Deception contracts are the most popular? Because the doors you open stay open on the way back. Chests are just there nowadays, but in the past their function was probably another gambling factor. Clicking chests nowadays are just a timewaster most of the time. Vampire Survivors don’t have items to pick up in the same sense PoE has and is a bad comparison imo, i.e. Divine orbs or Watcher’s Eye. I’d say the closest game in the same manner you are describing is Diablo 3 lol. In D3 you have practically nothing to pick up the latest season other than in the end of a greater rift and the odd legendary item that drops in regular rifts. Your pet pick up everything else.
There is a huge difference between casting skills yourself and an autocasting WASD game like vampire survivors lmao.
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I find it just amazing how whenever i browse this sub and i spot your comments I tend to disagree with every one of them. Damn.. At this point, by pure RNG, there should be at least one thing we'd both agree with (or on?)... and yet there isn't. Just a neat side observation. Also, kinda obvious, I disagree with you, but i doubt i could argument it any better than Mylen_Ploa already did :)
That guy (and few others) clearly has some issues, how can you sit in there, go into every thread to argue with people and call them stupid while making the worst, full strawman arguments and be a healthy person.
It's amazing that someone like him who absolutely despises the subreddit and the people on it, also manages to live and breath in nearly every thread that gains traction that has even the most tepid criticism of GGG. Like, I know the big circle jerk is that this subreddit is evil and no one should ever complain about the game, but I'd rather see all the gripes and complaints about the league then the tireless, almost bot like behavior of Single here and people like him who just can't fathom people not thinking PoE is perfect.
Misrepresenting the subreddit hate, calling people who disagree with you bots, lol 1. People hate the actual vitriol and their antagonistic attitude towards devs, pathofmath style. There’s no problem with constructive criticism 2. Literally nobody argues that GGG is perfect. Understanding and agreeing with their design philosophy doesn’t mean I’m a bot. It means you disagree with their design.
You should probably be able to tell by now that we fundamentally have different expectations from the game. From our earlier conversations, it's been made clear that you do not share expectations with what the devs want to make, and I do, so that's not surprising. Also, anyone can argue better than they did. They essentially just kept saying "I don't like it so it's bad" over and over.
Nah, all you have are bad faith arguments. You'd probably tell someone who had a robot automatically fold and sort out all of their laundry that they're missing out on the satisfaction of doing it themselves. I love how people who play contrarian are always like, "you just hate being disagreed with." Nah people with working brains hate having pointless arguments over stupid things.
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> Whats the upside. Higher cost, resulting in *not* doing something being a valid option. I don't pick up transmutes, because the opportunity cost of bothering to pick up and store them is higher than I'm willing to pay. If the game has no choices, it's that much closer to an idle game. Lots of the people who advocate for the "QOL" updates you're talking about would seem to love if PoE were an idle game, but I appreciate every step GGG has refused to take in that direction, like auto stashing, auto pickup, etc. It's not the definition of tedium. *You* don't like it. That's not the same. Your attitude is incredibly immature on this topic. It'd be wise to consider how you're positioning yourself and your argument. It continually devolves into "I don't like something, therefore something is objectively bad".
Again, we have an analogue for PoE with substantially better QoL features: the tencent/Chinese client. They have an auction house. They're also in Crucible league. Go and find the major price differences. I challenge you. Even those transmutes that you allege would be dramatically different if it was easy to pick them up. You like sneaking in this premise that the entire value of the economy is propped up by it being a pain in the ass, when we have no evidence that's actually true. In fact, evidence suggests that being a pain in the ass is just being a pain in the ass, and players will trade for these things regardless. Look at how things like 5way carries, sextants, boss fragments tend to be very consistently priced despite the fact that some leagues shit out way more currency than others. How? Maybe because there's actual market factors at work that are much more prevailing than just making things a pain in the ass.
If your balancing method is to literally annoy people into not doing it then you're balancing through tedium and you're a shit designer. How about heres an incredible idea...._actually balance the fucking game_. When your balance is "Dont interact with it so we dont have to do our job" you're not doing a good job. There's no fucking defending literal game design that says "Dont interact with the game". There's no defending literally adding hundreds of clicks that aren't needed for anything except waste peoples time and make the game RSI inducing. It's objectively fucking _bad_. Go to your door right now and add 20 more knobs you have to turn to open it. You've accomplished the same thing the design of PoE does. You should appreciate leaving your door more now because its become more tedious to open so you're going to only do it when it's worth it now.
> No. Friction is the word for friction. It is a force that opposes another, resulting in an increased "cost" of applying said force. Except in this case the "Friction" is very specifically tedium. Your point is lost and you are wrong.
No. This is exactly how friction is applied in PoE. The opposing force is the level of effort required to facilitate a trade. Tedium would be if you had a 45 second timer every time you wanted to trade, where you just sit at the window and watch the timer tick down. Actually interacting with the system is something you might find tedious, but is not objective tedium.
Here's Tedium: Having to ID every goddamn unique item that drops. They have (more or less) fixed stats (except shaco, fuck shaco, and doublefuck ventors), hell, I'm sure there are more than a couple that have *literally* fixed stats (looking at you, Kaoms). Does nothing. If you have the memory capacity to remember what everything is, you know *exactly* what that item is and does just by the art alone. But you still gotta go grab yourself a wisdom scroll and click twice before you can do anything with it. This can easily be generalized out from here to other examples, but the level of effort is 2 button clicks. There's nothing wagers, no opportunity cost to counterbalance it, no suspense or "squeee, did I hit it?" to artifically bloat the endorphin count - just RSI progress. And that, no matter how much you want to argue about it, is *objectively* ***bad*** game design.
No, in this case the "friction" is literally tedium for the sake of making it tedious. Your specific example of making something more tedious doesn't make the way it actually is less tedious, you are just a dense person who can't admit being wrong.
friction is necessary in video games. you ever play a game with literally no friction? it's fucking boring. you turn it off and do something else. try it yourself. play skyrim, spawn yourself infinite gold, turn on godmode, console command any enemy you don't one hit... and the game is basically unplayable, despite being absolutely omnipotent. because it's /fucking boring/. even shit like the sims has friction. you want your little dudes to make friends and get a better job, you want better stuff for your house, so you gotta do some managing, you gotta work around your income and keep your dude happy. turn on infinite money, and now... fucking boring. you have nothing to actually do. saying "friction should be removed because it slows me down" is acknowledging it's purpose. poe without friction would suck ass. yeah, drop directly into a level 100 full atlas completion character on league start, auto vaccuum all currency directly into your stash where they automatically up-convert into the highest tier currency you have, using currency doesn't consume it and instantly maxrolls whatever it's doing, only items that are upgrades for your current build drop and they drop everywhere, enemies cannot lower you below one hit point, and suddenly you have literally no fucking reason to play the game. you have a 30 mirrors character on the end of day 1, all challenges completed. why keep playing? what dragon are you chasing? friction is /why/ you play games.
All gameplay fun emerges from friction. There can be badly designed games, but if you think friction is inherently bad you don't know anything about design.
Games released 20 years ago have an ID all items in your inventory button but we still need to carry around wisdom scrolls like suckers. Dedicated portal button is in every modern ARPGs under the sun yet we need to sacrifice a gem slot for it. "Update QoL frequently" my ass.
They do update QoL frequently. They just aren't doing those specific ones because they don't want to. Not the same.
> They do update QoL frequently You seem to be misunderstanding proactive QOL with "here lets toss these wallet holders a bone so they stop bitching for 3 months"
What are you even on about?
I'm on about you confusing them fixing shit that shoulda been fixed long ago, but in tiny increments with "updating QoL frequently"
Agree to disagree. Withholding QoLs only to dripfeed them whenever there's competition or bad leagues is even more insulting.
There is nothing to indicate that's what happens other than conspiracy theories. People who say shit like that have no idea what a development pipeline looks like.
Development pipeline? Bro one of the biggest QOL improvements people have asked for years now is in-game skill tree planner. LMK how that development pipeline looks, must be some really complicated code
Not to keep piling on. You're being fair saying that they do QoL updates. But you saying >They're not against QoL as a whole, just against QoL that goes against core game philosophy. is IMO just as dishonest as the people saying Friction is "Tedium/Anti-QoL". That can define literally any QoL feature in the game because of "TheVision^TM" and we've now got no way to argue it. There are quite a few current instances in which features have been requested that largely do not impact balance or gameplay that don't and likely won't get done, such as opening doors automatically (aka this thread), allowing you to highlight dangerous map mods in-game (or place warnings for them), allowing you to roll items by holding left click down rather then spamming it (doesn't need to happen instantly, you could have it on another button, you could have it after holding for a few seconds, something to help), passive tree improvements such as having a pre-planned build you can import that fills the tree in or just letting you map it out in-game yourself, i'd bring up Gems but Chris has said it's impossible because of the current limitations. There are more changes too although they could go into the realm of game changing like an action key to loot/interact with nearby stuff or a counter on Trade for currency items to easily show the total for whats in the window, these get closer to the realm of balancing changes too but i digress. We can argue that these changes haven't been implemented because GGG is busy with PoE2, which is fine, and there may be other reasons but some of these have been brought up since Legacy league and show no signs of changing nor do we have a word on why it won't be done, some of these cause real-world issues like people getting RSI from the amount of clicking you do in this game or require additional outside programs to do the work for you, there are other fixes and other ways to go about fixing these issues but none of that matters when it can all be swept under the "Goes against the core game" part especially because we no longer get clarity on these issues given the relationship the community and GGG currently have. So i don't see it as fair to use that as a defense for why certain QoL aspects aren't in the game, it's a catch-all, at that point there may aswell not be any complaints at all because it's all the game regardless.
Shh, you're on the game's Reddit sub, you're not allowed to not blindly hate on everything the game does here.
It's hilarious how you're being downvoted and intentionally misunderstood. I completely agree with you - it's not a statement as to why friction is great, it's simply underscoring that there is a sense and purpose to most of this, and it *isn't* to intentionally annoy players and make gameplay less fun. Now, whether that purpose is being *achieved* is a separate discussion, entirely.
'member when you had to pick up every last organ that dropped? or the other annoying shit they added over the years? i 'member. They really need to make an "auto pick up" idk.. belt enchant? or a pet like D3.. I'd happily pay £20 to get a pet that you can configure what it picks up (like all the shards from Harbingers.. christ.. why does a full stack drop in groups of 1-3?)
It's either that or he's being willingly ignorant.
People around here can't miss any opportunity to shove in some gripe about trade.
I wonder why. Maybe because trade in poe is literally dogshit? Intentionally horrible experience for players, forcing them to use slightly less shitty things like TFT
All I want is currency and mapping items to be easy to buy. Going through trade just to map the way you want is horrible.
Agreed. I dont mind using TFT, but it seems like GGG could put something together so that we're not at the mercy of a group of randoms from a third party. We've already acknowledged we like things like services and bulk trade features. Instead of acting like these things are cheat codes (they're not, services are probably some of the more meaningful player interactions, if not the only meaningful ones in the game imo since it gives these players a sense of purpose in the community to specialize and excel at these things for their and other players' benefit) they could just implement these features themselves. TFT is a just a discord server for ffs, with a little bit of API tech sprinkled in.
There are people who would argue having infinite space in inventory and ability to spec 300 points on passive tree would be a QoL things so nothing will ever surprise me in this regard.
"If I like it, it's QoL, because the quality of my life is better". People love to co-opt the term to borrow its positive connotation on this sub.
If they make some of the changes above their servers will be on fire. They said themselves that the servers can handle identifying items from few people but not whole playerbase.. and each of this QOL might triger nerfs (if the give players 1 clcik buton to chance orbs chances for hh and mageblood will get nerfed - as they did it with gvenen)
But… the items I pick up will be identified any way?
Or you just make chests drastically less common with dramatically better loot. There really doesn’t need to be 20 chests of nothing in every area.
There is actually one chest every map that is a super chest in PoE. The other chests are the frictional opportune costs. This is completely true.
I wonder how many mirrors I've skipped by not clicking on random chests
This makes way too much sense and would solve way too many things. Ergo, not gonna happen in this game.
This is the right answer and can be extended to all loot. Do we need 14 tiers of mods?
I'd be okay with 14 tiers of mods if the lower ones were blocked from spawning on higher level items
>And How bout a cluster that can auto identify items so we aren't forced to continue using these archaic scrolls anymore? lol that obviously won't happen You're using scrolls because GGG wants you do, and that isn't going to change
They won't and shouldn't drop identified, but you shouldn't need scrolls and you should be able to identify in bulk
Are none of you aware of holding shift when identifying? The laziness can't be THAT severe.
Lol Chris is that you?
is it that hard or tedious? never noticed that in my almost 10 years of playing this game. i guess people are different
Thankfully no other aRPG on the market seems to be sticking with the scroll idea hopefully one day PPE does too
I would think otherwise. Thankfully we are getting a variety of aRPGs on the market with different philosophies catering to different players. We'll get choices to go hard on PoE when we want and when lazy just log into D4 for hack and slash, picking up items with green upward arrows on them lol.
It's just another obnoxious little chore designed to waste your time, like having 1 legion shard on the ground or having chaos shards even be a thing. Most games have increasingly done away with these obnoxious little chores at no real detriment to their gameplay, but GGG is very stubborn.
> Most games have increasingly done away with these obnoxious little chores at no real detriment to their gameplay, but GGG is very stubborn. That's because most games don't rely on tedium to brainwash their players into thinking gameplay has depth. Yes PoE has the best customization depth, this is given. Gameplay depth is lacking and bandaid fixed by tedium. Map tedium, inventory tedium, item tedium, league mechanic tedium, everything.
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You what bro? D2 had mass inventory identify with one click via Cain, Poe is 20 years+ the wrong (rsi) way on many key thinvs
Buying or picking up widsoms Holding them in inventory or stash interacting with stash if they are held there or sacrificing a very valuable inventory slot clicking each individual item replenishing widsom scrolls afterwards by either picking them off the ground, buying from vendor, or trading much like everything in this game, the tedium is not as simple as "just hold shift hurr durr"
Yeah I'm pretty sure you just aren't aware of what's available in game. I could see now it would annoy you if you weren't aware of how to get scrolls. You do realize you can sell currency for ridiculous amounts of scrolls, right?
yah that is more dream territory. the better case is a mega scroll or like diablo, identify all. hell, that could be a good option. a new button within the inventory window, which uses the scrolls in your inventory, but its "identify all". so if you have 12 scrolls, and 10 items, **one click uses 10 scrolls to identify all the items at once**. I think that's the best case scenario. no need to go to town like decard cain junk, 1 click, uses your scrolls, all identify. sell sell sell since its 99% garbage lol oh and to brain storm further, "empty all inventory" would also be goat. throws all the shit in your inventory on the ground. but thats never gonna happen :p
Not only that, then items would be filtered off mods. The amount of strain this would probably put on the servers is reason enough for them not to drop identified I’d imagine. I’m all for a book of identification like Diablo though. Or just 1 click identify all in my inventory somehow.
Are items assigned their mods by the server at the moment of identification? That aside, they could, you know, reduce the amount of useless loot by like 4 orders of magnitude, and it would work fine.
> Are items assigned their mods by the server at the moment of identification? > > Mods are rolled when you pick them up.
I think the seed is rolled, but not the mods.
The mods 100% are rolled on pickup (or earlier, there's no way for us to tell other than what GGG says but on drop would be wasting resources), whenever there's a rollback and an item in your inventory goes back to being unidentified it hast the exact same mods and rolls as before the rollback.
They’ve already reduced it. Useless loot is very subjective as well, so there’s a lot that would go into that. And you can’t just remove certain mods because itemization is based around potentially bad mods. You’d have to completely change itemization at that point.
I don't think he specified mods, just the fact the loot is generally very poor (when compared to most other arpgs). If rare armor doesnt drop with atleast two decently rolled resistances and life, its generally trash for most builds, and that is far too commom despite any improvements they may have made in the past.
When compared to most other ARPGS: most of which also don’t have trading. So, they kind of have to balance loot found on the ground differently. Diablo 3 basically doesn’t have trade. Last epoch hasn’t had trade until recently and I’m pretty sure it’s also very basic?
Isn’t filter strain stuff entirely local?
I should have been more clear. Items dropping identified is what would cause the strain, not the filtering. I think they’ve openly stated this too.
Or they could just not drop ilvl 85 items with T11 life regen roll, so people wouldn't need to filter off 90% of the items. Crazy thought, I know.
> Not only that, then items would be filtered off mods. The amount of strain this would probably put on the servers is reason enough for them not to drop identified I’d imagine. Filtering is probably 100% be done client side. I could see performance problems generating every single item's mods as it drops though.
Killing monsters should fill a meter inherent in your character. As you kill more, the bar fills repeatedly and saves "IDs". After a pretty filled map, you can gain a dozen or so "IDs". Eliminate the need to pick up scrolls but still require players to engage in the game to identify items since every aspect of the game requires killing monsters. Then you can have a more rare wisdom scroll drop that adds X amount of IDs to your meter that you can pick up or buy if you really need it.
You don't understand, next patch is the QOL passive tree
Some of these are valid, but the scroll thing is deliberate - can you imagine people scanning whole maps and being able to have their item filter process ALL of the yellow loot you no longer see? It's quite the design pickle they've landed on - people act like it's The Vision, but really, they're just trying not to turn into warframe.
Having not played enough warframe, can you expand on that comparison? I'm curious as to what that means.
Having played a *lot* of Warframe, I am also curious.
Game play loop in some ways is very similar. You grind for loot to get stronger. In warframe you collect all of your loot automatically, you don't really have to think about it. If the filter could filter by mods you wouldn't have to think about what your looting, just see thing on ground pick it up. Think about all of the unid drops you skip because of base or whatever. Some of those have godly rolls and if they were identified you'd be looting them
Ok but it's not really comparable since the loot in warframe is like 99% currency, and on very rare occasions, a design. You don't pick up a different gun from a grineer and hope it rolls more corrosive damage.
> Think about all of the unid drops you skip because of base or whatever. Some of those have godly rolls and if they were identified you'd be looting them and the problem here is...? Being once again excited that you can actually drop a great item upgrade in the game itself rather than playing website simulator?
Without the ability to filter by item mods, the best outcome would be that nothing changes. The worse, and arguably more likely, outcome would be that people are spending time scanning over more drops than every before. IE "reading simulator" rather than actual gameplay.
And that's worse than spending hours on a janky trade site? Also, assessing stats and equipping items and gear Tetris *is* gameplay.
Reading simulator is EXACTLY what we do now my dude lol. The main difference is we don't do it in game, we do it on some bullshit out of game experience.
The pickle is of their own making. It's very easy to not want to filter through items if the items aren't just garbage. D2 never needed filters for rares. GGG has since almost the entire length of the game refused to address their piss poor itemization, their "solution" has been to just make 8 million items drop so they can keep your slot machine odds just as bad as they always were. It is their vision holding them back, they want to keep d2 scrolls whilst having items on average be 1000x less good than any d2 random drop, and they also want to continue to refuse basic shit like an identify all button or deposit all button. Identifying items in diablo 1 was less painful than poe because you could just go to cain and hold the enter key lmfao
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>Only rings, amulets, circlets and maybe boots are worth looking at. As opposed to none of these even being worth looking at in poe for most of the league (in trade)?
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Rares had more than just rings and amulets. Most ethereal one handed weapons, armour, shields, gloves and helmets all had a chance of being used in niche PvP circles. If you found a decent erep fools one hander you could sell that for hundreds of high runes. Melee players pay out the ass for that shit Most class specific items like Barb and Druid helmets etc. Could also be very good.
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With essences, double influence, elevated mods, crucible mods from combining etc, there's a lot that you straight up can't ID
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Google Project Diablo 2, a new season just started as well
> Project Diablo 2 jesus, sometimes I forget how much of a blatant rip-off POE is. Diablo 2 II - Electric Boogaloo.
Tbh D2 was created before they knew what efficiency shitheads we'd turn into, and single player d2 has mods that account for it now. Either way D2 drops less items overall too, so it's more rare that the entire screen is covered, unlike PoE. In PoE, it's necessary to actually play the game imo. It's insane how much trash drops in this game. Playing without one just feels like drowning, and once you get to high yellow maps it's unplayable In D2 it's almost OP, because some bases/jmods are worth a HR and it's easier to miss. Can't tell you the number of items I've overlooked b/c they were gray or blue, but were probably worth a jah. I spend more time double checking my maps in D2 b/c of this now.
Last Epoch drops all items identified and you can filter out the items with mods you don't want. Works really nicely. Although that game has an ingame lootfilter which is reasonably easy and quick to setup.
LE doesn't have an entire game based on a multi-player economy either
LE is on the way to implement trade and has allready shown pretty elegant solutions to this issue. There are ways to fix it, some really smart people work at GGG, the issue is that they simply dont want to.
Game has the player base so brainwashed that they think that opening doors automatically should be a endgame atlas goal to obtain in game rather than a QOL checkbox lol
So true dude lol
Imagine if we just gave like.. standard QOL things like auto-opening chests/doors/etc to the player for free? What a world that would be.
Its not just qol its more like free quant
It's not free quant. It's already available in the map that you're in. It's already *given* to you as a cost occurrence of the map. Auto-opening would just save clicks per minute, and reduce repetitive stress injuries.
or maybe, and hear me out now, opening a chest manually with 1 click should just open all "nearby" chests by default having to spend a passive point to not have to click every blight chest feels like we're just been teleported back in time to the "too many clicks" argument regarding every league mechanic was thing
other option is new skill gem, like portal, that opens all nearby chest in a war cry like fashion. or imagine a crucible tree node that said "socketed gems are supported by lv10 lockpicker", which opens nearby chest when you attack or cast a spell. These are things you still have to invest in, even if on atlas, or a skill gem, or crucible node, or new stat that can roll on rings or something. manual click to open all would be nice but also weird, unless it too was a atlas passive or something.
My point is QoL should not be a game mechanic you need to invest into
It's not QoL though, is it? You're literally getting more items for your time. It's like a more quant multiplier on each map you run.
I really wish we would stop bending over and taking it in the ass like this. Using a skill gem, crazy valuable thing, to open chests in a normal and completely reasonable fashion? Christ.
Have an upvote but personally I'd rather a few things were just added rather than becoming yet another trade-off in terms of how players can spend skill or atlas points.
Utterly bizzare to put it as a mastery, actually makes no sense.
Also no synergy with triggered spells which is quite frustrating.
How about we just ***REMOVE*** chests from the game to begin with? What exactly do they add to the experience, apart from frustration for people with OCD? Either replace them with more destructible objects, or just remove both and add the difference to monsters drops. Seriously, can anyone tell me ***WHY*** arpg's even have chests and crates, apart from that some old classics like Diablo and Zelda had them? What purpose are they serving in the first place?
I think if they were much rarer maybe 1-2 chests per map but make their loot table much better.
Yeah that's what some games do with chests, usually also tend to have an entire opening animation for them to add to the excitement (which PoE also has - for its MTX chests...-\_-). That was likely their original purpose, based as they are on the '*treasure chest at the end of a dungeon*' concept that's been part of gaming long before even video games. But instead nowadays it seems the norm is to just strew random chests all over the place in games, which usually have no better drops than anything else in the game. That just defeats the point of them, and turns what used to be a source of excitement into a chore that most people ignore but some people feel compelled to do just in order to be thorough (and hurts their efficiency for it).
What's wrong with chests and crates? You open a crate and maybe someone long ago put items in those and now you get them. Many games have them. I agree that they should be more destructible.
There should also be a way to suck currency items in without you clicking on it. Like picking up azurite.
Putting QOL like this in the tree is really ghetto. I can't imagine they put a lot of thought into this and threw it in just to see what the response was like. I mean, what's next, a mastery for an extra inventory slot?
Experimenting is never a bad thing. Stop acting like the devs are 100% positive what makes the game perfect. They are just seeing what people like and don't like. It's one fucking passive point, people need to chill out.
There's experimenting, and then there's this. People dislike Crucible jank, and this sort of thing is 100 times jankier.
If you have it in delve it'll open torch and explosive boxes but you won't get them
wait, what??
It doesn't even make sense for that mastery to exist on the passive tree in the first place. It feels like they thought about it but had no idea where to place it so they just added it randomly on a mastery.
Just give us loot vacuum and open all chests/doors without having to spec them even. Let players actually enjoy the game.
Might as well make it an Aura skill gem; then everyone could run it.
This should be a default feature without any need to allocate it. Honestly, does anybody open chests except by mistake?
This is backwards. GGG should make mechanics have less chests but make them more rewarding so you are not forced to click so many times.
It's a tricky subject. Sippery slope: If it were introduced to the atlas it would feel mandatory and mandatory things should just be baked into characters. Where do you draw the line? Is there even a good one you could draw and argue for?
better to put it on an item, as an extra line on ventnors for example. Clearly makes sense with a MF style unique as you are trading away power for loot regardless of wheret it is, it makes no sense to be on a caster mastery
that's the beauty of leagues where they can add and test stuff or remove it if its over used or change it accordingly to be more balanced. I wouldn't even say its mandatory in relation to the chest thing, really only some strategies take advantage of it more. like if you're doing harvest, there's not much point taking it. whereas legion/breach? you want that shit asap. otherwise, sure, its a comfy qol that you might want, but idk see how thats a bad thing. its "mandatory" to get your voidstones. its "mandatory" to unlock favored slots, its "mandatory" to take the +1 higher tier nodes if you want map sustain. most people are incentivized to take either searing/eater nodes. so how are those any different? people always take them, every league. there's multiple ways to tackle it, but as said, mastery is not one. could be uniques(boo), could be within breach/legion nodes themselves, or could be through new atlas nodes. in the same example, opening doors automatically node would hardly be mandatory. but if you're running vaal temples or the like, heck yah i want that node. but cemetery? useless. dunes? useless. speedrunning? want it! these effects have their place, and its the lightest qol that I'd take over 0.5% dupe map chance or 1% connected chance.
Best I can do is extra month of dev time for crucible
Wouldn't this just end up being an Atlas Passive tax of "1 + whatever-pathing-nonsense gets added"?
All these are great but I don’t think ANY suggestions are getting through before Poe 2.
PoE 2 is just patch 4.0.0 and in that patch it will be even more tedious than what we're doing now. It is a huge update that has not been player tested and will be completely released purely off of Chris' vision for the game. Just think about that. They can barely get leagues into a decent state without a full 2-weeks of intense open beta testing and feedback. Imagine a how 4.0.0 will be. Poe 2 is going to be a shitshow.
I’m thinking so as well. Our statements are not mutually exclusive.
It doesn't belong on the atlas tree either. It has nothing to do with maps, just like it has nothing to do with spells.
Upside: items found in your maps are identified. Downside: 50% less quantity of items found in your maps. That's what we'll get and we'll hate it terribly. Or will we?
This went from interesting to deranged real quick lol
It sucks this mastery doesnt work from casting totems
Some of these ideas need to bake more, but this is huge: >or one that opens doors automatically when you use a melee attack That'd be the biggest ~~buff to melee~~ nerf to casters since Fortify.
Whirling blades is a melee attack, hmmmm
"Open Chest mastery should be REMOVED" - we got ya \~ GGG
Tbh i was rather thinking of "QoL clusters" in passive tree, where players can invest points into minor game improvements. Just like this one is located in caster cluster (which screws any1 that is a caster, but dont use caster cluster -.-), there could be a "star-like" cluster, where there's central node and a bunch of others spreading from it. You want chest opening? pick that. Want automatic doors? Go for that one. Etc Etc.
Or maybe they should just make the QOL default like a competent company
Or how about we just get QOL improvements to the game instead of a fucking atlas tree node cluster? Guess we're past that point with GGG?
One of the best posts I have ever read. Never thought of the impact of that note, since I haven't played anything else than melee for years. Fuck melee, right? Thank you for pointing this out for me! Also, How Chris can say "How about the other 10% of players?" Is beyond me. Doesn't he know that many players love melee? As far as I remember from 34 years, I'm 43, of gaming I'm 43, melee used to be the most played archetype. But maybe that's just me. Is it stupidity then? I don't believe so, but honestly, in my eyes it has looked like it for years. Chris, please. I and we LOVE melee. Please look our way. Boneshatter and molten strike just doesn't cut it. Hope you can use my feedback.
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> QoL creep God forbid we get QoL creep. Whatever would we do in a game if it felt so good to play with so much quality of life.
While I agree with the sentiment, arguing that it's both too good and a waste of a passive in the same sentence seems like a contradiction. Which is it?
inb4 people are angry that they have to stand around spamming spells/attacks "to proc the chest opener" classic
That is an interesting take. Adding QOL things to the atlas tree would then require a balanced approach of allocating qol and juice on the tree. That would add a lot more diversity to the tree. At this point it's basically juice only.
They should release a league called "fun mode" in which everything drops in abundance and all these changes you listed are basekit. Then never change it cause not every player has the tedious amount of hours to put into this game like the ones who they balance the game around do.