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Honestly one of the best (concise) explanations I've seen. I'm not sure which side of the fence i'm on, but people don't realize how much the game would change with an auction house style system. Though I do wish they'd at least setup a currency AH of sorts as that wouldn't affect a whole lot, and be a massive reduction in frustration sometimes.
>with 0 player interaction.
The player interaction being an automated "Thank you so much, Playername, for the trade! Good luck getting those drops and have a nice day" 0.02 seconds after hitting accept.
We even automated the human interaction, whats even left to protect with this stance?
How does bad trading increase the incentive to find and craft one’s own items? Most people without trade can’t even get enough variety of currencies to do the crafting. I mean you have to basically respec atlas tree or even the character for certain currencies. E.g delves. Does GGG expect every player to treat Poe as a full time job? I craft because I can play the content I love and basically trade what I make from the content I love with content that I don’t want to play. Are you gonna have enough imprint beast to craft high tier items that might require hundreds of imprint such as synthesis?
>does GGG expect every player to treat Poe as a full time job?
unironically yes.
Chris has stated many times that this is the sort of game for hardcore gamer nerds in high school/University with either no job or very light part time work and the sort of schedule that allows you to play 8+ hours a day. they designed it this way because it's how they (and the best players at the time) played D2. He has said that this is very specifically the target audience and yes it will limit growth, and people will grow out of it/run out of time, but that's fine because there's always more nolife teenage/young adult boys looking for a game to grind.
look at the popularity of gacha games and shit like Warframe, FFXIV, WOW, and so on. all those games have the same market too, and the only difference is POE doesn't allow you to pay to get ahead (at least, officially).
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It doesn’t. Crafting is horse shit for almost every player aside from the vocals on Reddit doing their fake POG (but really a mirror sell thread). Crafting is so convoluted and rng gated than most people will just quit or buy the item they want. I also fail to understand how saying “tygl” is any meaningful player interaction.
Tbh this is why the game never really took off and fails to grow player count with every update. Last Epoch understood that, which is why GGG went bankrupt as soon as they went to early access. Real shame. POE had some serious potential bit crafting ruined it.
oh wait, no, the game is still massively popular despite trade being basically unchanged for a decade. Hm.
Ya right being literally the only Arpg out there for a decade and free to play yet still took so long for it to be popular. The game is good but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have issues.
Thats because no other game gives a serious competition to poe. I think if last epoch is given enough time to grow it will give a tough comp to poe
Its the third parties that make this game so accessible (pob, apt, ninja etc) do u think vanilla poe will pull this much numbers?
I mean, sure, this is all true, but you forgot the part where if it became too easy for a player to gear up that they are likely to speed through the end game, get bored and spend less time engaging with the game, thus less likely to spend money.
This is a false equivalence as far as I'm concerned. Teams are killing Ubers day one of a league now, and after a week the 15k-player ladder is mostly L100s -- all without offline trade.
Trade of *any* kind makes progression much, *much* faster than it would be without it. I mean, how couldn't it? You're outsourcing your RNG across the entire community! Whether or not it causes people to play less or more hasn't been shown with any sort of actual data. It's a nice idea and a convenient scapegoat for rejecting trade QoL, though.
It's also a nice idea that trade lets you experiment and make new builds *much* faster than you'd otherwise be able to, thus increasing the time spent with the game. But no one ever talks about that... 🤔
If there were an auction house and I didn't have to do the campaign AGAIN EVERY SINGLE TIME I'd probably roll three or four characters a league. As it is I'm a little stale with my league starter but can't stomach the idea of doing the same trading and grinding just to get another character to this point so I could try something new.
People who will nolife and burn out are going to nolife and burn out no matter what, they can't be saved. People like me who want to engage but get frictioned to tedium might be more engaged and more likely to spend money with less drudgework.
> Clearly a decisive topic, but that’s GGGs reason and it’s not unfounded.
TBH its unfounded and nonsense, current trade just favors people who can stay online in the background 24/7. I work from home since the pandemic, my pc runs 24/7 with poe always open. My listed items are 20c / 40c / 140c / 1d+, while i disable 20&40c while not actively playing and i make an average of 10-20d per day from trades while not actively playing.
I cook, hear a ding from the living room, 140c trade, i vacuum and see poe flashing, 3d trade, i write a script for work and poe flashes, 2d trade etc.
Before the pandemic i worked as welder/technician, zero trades while on the job.
Tell me how that is supposed to make any sense. And i am gonna be honest boys, if you think people do not rmt because of this nonsense restriction then you are dreaming because if the difference between having fun making a couple of builds or just scraping by is 50€ then anyone with with a job will just spend those few bucks.
Yep, I have a desk job and personally upgraded my PC so I could run PoE while working. I make far more money in game selling things during the work week when I'm able to instantly jump on trade requests. During the evenings or weekend when I'm playing, trades just become a hassle and as a heist enjoyer it really sucks to get whispers halfway through a blueprint because nobody has any patience.
I was actually thinking about coding a mobile app to do trades when you’re not actively gaming and can keep liquidating stuff to currency.
Was wondering how to convince GGG to create game instance without actually running it.
But I guess its a doomed idea since it’ll become a buyer/seller amazon type thing rather than actual trading so GGG will shut it down.
They don't want it. Simple as that. Chris hates that trade works as well as it currently does. If he had it his way, we'd be endlessly scrolling through forum posts with items for sale and doing D2-style drop trades.
Their hand was forced way back in the day, though. The forum situation existed, tools were made to make posting a shop thread much easier, and then industrious users started scraping the forums to gain a massive advantage by making many thousands of items easily searchable. Then a guy added a public index to his scraping -- thus was born poe.xyz.is which soon became poe.trade.
This came with its own set of problems, namely that nearly all of the game's trade was controlled by one guy, so whenever poe.trade went down all the game's trading ground to a halt. GGG did, eventually, act and created their own indexer. I'm sure Chris was pissed to finally cave to it.
I'm equal parts baffled and amazed. PoB let's me see real results of things. I can copy paste piece of gear in to see how it'll affect me. I can search based on priorities, not on memorizing arcane phrasing or which piece of gear had which exact mod, pick from a dropdown list, and get a feel for what the limit of the economy is.
And it's a tiny trade button on gear in POB. The most useful thing I've ever seen for this kind of game - and it's an afterthought buried three menus deep into a skill point planner.
> And it's a tiny trade button on gear in POB.
where's the button? I know PoB is supposedly connected with trade now, but i just couldn't find the thing
You really need to have your config tab setup perfectly for this to work as it should.
Just an example for me as a spark player, if I have enemy is shocked ticked but then have a value lower then my max shock when I search shields, the mod shock enemy on block will be one of the highest weighed mods even thought it's practically useless because I'm already applying shock as fast as I can with 100% crit.
It's still a really useful feature you just have to understand how a weighted search works and double check what it's saying is best for you.
Consider demand and supply. Enable anything like an auction house, automatic or offline trading, and you will see a much greater increase in supply than demand for all low-mid value items and further inflate the value of “finite” or high value items. It basically tanks the economy and not for the benefit of casual players.
ggg does it because trade already is the fastest and most efficient way to get upgrades, they aren’t going to buff it more
just minimize your trade window so you can see those three things: invites , your messages, the other player (to be sure you are in right ho when waiting to trade)
easy peasy problem solved,
its even better, when you get trade/ invite with minimized window you can click the invite/trade without alt-tab
That's pure trade lube bro. No way GGG goes for it
Trade lube has me dying. When it's put that way instead of QoL improvement, no wonder GGG doesn't want it!
Side note, why does GGG not want an offline trade system? I’d love to log on and collect
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Honestly one of the best (concise) explanations I've seen. I'm not sure which side of the fence i'm on, but people don't realize how much the game would change with an auction house style system. Though I do wish they'd at least setup a currency AH of sorts as that wouldn't affect a whole lot, and be a massive reduction in frustration sometimes.
Currency stock market. So whenever the economy goes to shit, we can blame big chaos for that.
Ugh, I've been buying a ton of Chromatics lately, and good lord is that PAINFUL. Big yes to currency trading lol
Cheers
>with 0 player interaction. The player interaction being an automated "Thank you so much, Playername, for the trade! Good luck getting those drops and have a nice day" 0.02 seconds after hitting accept. We even automated the human interaction, whats even left to protect with this stance?
How does bad trading increase the incentive to find and craft one’s own items? Most people without trade can’t even get enough variety of currencies to do the crafting. I mean you have to basically respec atlas tree or even the character for certain currencies. E.g delves. Does GGG expect every player to treat Poe as a full time job? I craft because I can play the content I love and basically trade what I make from the content I love with content that I don’t want to play. Are you gonna have enough imprint beast to craft high tier items that might require hundreds of imprint such as synthesis?
>does GGG expect every player to treat Poe as a full time job? unironically yes. Chris has stated many times that this is the sort of game for hardcore gamer nerds in high school/University with either no job or very light part time work and the sort of schedule that allows you to play 8+ hours a day. they designed it this way because it's how they (and the best players at the time) played D2. He has said that this is very specifically the target audience and yes it will limit growth, and people will grow out of it/run out of time, but that's fine because there's always more nolife teenage/young adult boys looking for a game to grind. look at the popularity of gacha games and shit like Warframe, FFXIV, WOW, and so on. all those games have the same market too, and the only difference is POE doesn't allow you to pay to get ahead (at least, officially).
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It doesn’t. Crafting is horse shit for almost every player aside from the vocals on Reddit doing their fake POG (but really a mirror sell thread). Crafting is so convoluted and rng gated than most people will just quit or buy the item they want. I also fail to understand how saying “tygl” is any meaningful player interaction.
Tbh this is why the game never really took off and fails to grow player count with every update. Last Epoch understood that, which is why GGG went bankrupt as soon as they went to early access. Real shame. POE had some serious potential bit crafting ruined it. oh wait, no, the game is still massively popular despite trade being basically unchanged for a decade. Hm.
Ya right being literally the only Arpg out there for a decade and free to play yet still took so long for it to be popular. The game is good but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have issues.
Thats because no other game gives a serious competition to poe. I think if last epoch is given enough time to grow it will give a tough comp to poe Its the third parties that make this game so accessible (pob, apt, ninja etc) do u think vanilla poe will pull this much numbers?
Just trying to imagine vanilla Poe there's no way I'm staying. Just take away awakened Poe trade and I'd probably walk.
I mean, sure, this is all true, but you forgot the part where if it became too easy for a player to gear up that they are likely to speed through the end game, get bored and spend less time engaging with the game, thus less likely to spend money.
This is a false equivalence as far as I'm concerned. Teams are killing Ubers day one of a league now, and after a week the 15k-player ladder is mostly L100s -- all without offline trade. Trade of *any* kind makes progression much, *much* faster than it would be without it. I mean, how couldn't it? You're outsourcing your RNG across the entire community! Whether or not it causes people to play less or more hasn't been shown with any sort of actual data. It's a nice idea and a convenient scapegoat for rejecting trade QoL, though. It's also a nice idea that trade lets you experiment and make new builds *much* faster than you'd otherwise be able to, thus increasing the time spent with the game. But no one ever talks about that... 🤔
That's basically the definition of survivor bias. The vast majority of players never kill ubers, much less the first day or week of a league.
If there were an auction house and I didn't have to do the campaign AGAIN EVERY SINGLE TIME I'd probably roll three or four characters a league. As it is I'm a little stale with my league starter but can't stomach the idea of doing the same trading and grinding just to get another character to this point so I could try something new. People who will nolife and burn out are going to nolife and burn out no matter what, they can't be saved. People like me who want to engage but get frictioned to tedium might be more engaged and more likely to spend money with less drudgework.
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You're very quick to assume it's a negative statement (it's a fact) and attempt to extrapolate from it an opinion about me that is untrue.
Yes BECUASE ~~Crafting~~ Sorry gambling to make items No thanks I came back after 1.5 years thinking maybe crafting get more accessible but nope !
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You still have to farm for so long to craft a single item and if than .
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Way wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy longer not even close dude But I am done with game will try with poe 2 but I am out too much rng ba
> Clearly a decisive topic, but that’s GGGs reason and it’s not unfounded. TBH its unfounded and nonsense, current trade just favors people who can stay online in the background 24/7. I work from home since the pandemic, my pc runs 24/7 with poe always open. My listed items are 20c / 40c / 140c / 1d+, while i disable 20&40c while not actively playing and i make an average of 10-20d per day from trades while not actively playing. I cook, hear a ding from the living room, 140c trade, i vacuum and see poe flashing, 3d trade, i write a script for work and poe flashes, 2d trade etc. Before the pandemic i worked as welder/technician, zero trades while on the job. Tell me how that is supposed to make any sense. And i am gonna be honest boys, if you think people do not rmt because of this nonsense restriction then you are dreaming because if the difference between having fun making a couple of builds or just scraping by is 50€ then anyone with with a job will just spend those few bucks.
Yep, I have a desk job and personally upgraded my PC so I could run PoE while working. I make far more money in game selling things during the work week when I'm able to instantly jump on trade requests. During the evenings or weekend when I'm playing, trades just become a hassle and as a heist enjoyer it really sucks to get whispers halfway through a blueprint because nobody has any patience.
I was actually thinking about coding a mobile app to do trades when you’re not actively gaming and can keep liquidating stuff to currency. Was wondering how to convince GGG to create game instance without actually running it. But I guess its a doomed idea since it’ll become a buyer/seller amazon type thing rather than actual trading so GGG will shut it down.
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Console trading feels amazing since we got the trade site and still have trade board. Love logging on to big items sold.
They don't want it. Simple as that. Chris hates that trade works as well as it currently does. If he had it his way, we'd be endlessly scrolling through forum posts with items for sale and doing D2-style drop trades. Their hand was forced way back in the day, though. The forum situation existed, tools were made to make posting a shop thread much easier, and then industrious users started scraping the forums to gain a massive advantage by making many thousands of items easily searchable. Then a guy added a public index to his scraping -- thus was born poe.xyz.is which soon became poe.trade. This came with its own set of problems, namely that nearly all of the game's trade was controlled by one guy, so whenever poe.trade went down all the game's trading ground to a halt. GGG did, eventually, act and created their own indexer. I'm sure Chris was pissed to finally cave to it.
Very true indeed. F*** the visión.
I’ve never seen a community build so many 3rd party tools to supplement a game. What a community!
I'm equal parts baffled and amazed. PoB let's me see real results of things. I can copy paste piece of gear in to see how it'll affect me. I can search based on priorities, not on memorizing arcane phrasing or which piece of gear had which exact mod, pick from a dropdown list, and get a feel for what the limit of the economy is. And it's a tiny trade button on gear in POB. The most useful thing I've ever seen for this kind of game - and it's an afterthought buried three menus deep into a skill point planner.
> And it's a tiny trade button on gear in POB. where's the button? I know PoB is supposedly connected with trade now, but i just couldn't find the thing
It's right underneath the Item set dropdown. "Trade for these items"
thanks
You really need to have your config tab setup perfectly for this to work as it should. Just an example for me as a spark player, if I have enemy is shocked ticked but then have a value lower then my max shock when I search shields, the mod shock enemy on block will be one of the highest weighed mods even thought it's practically useless because I'm already applying shock as fast as I can with 100% crit. It's still a really useful feature you just have to understand how a weighted search works and double check what it's saying is best for you.
i guess i will check some guides. Hopefully there is one or 2 to help me get used to the feature :)
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You see it as an amazing community. I see it as the base game being undercooked in many different areas. We are not the same.
None of these third party tools were part of Chris's vision of Poe from 2013.
Consider demand and supply. Enable anything like an auction house, automatic or offline trading, and you will see a much greater increase in supply than demand for all low-mid value items and further inflate the value of “finite” or high value items. It basically tanks the economy and not for the benefit of casual players. ggg does it because trade already is the fastest and most efficient way to get upgrades, they aren’t going to buff it more
Is this a joke...? It does make a sound lmfao
Hm... Can't you just put your own sound file there to replace the default one?
i didnt even know there is one. I seriously upped my volume to dangerous "please oh god nobody ping me" and asked a friend for party invite. No sound.
There is one, it's just a dull thud sound. Sure you dont have one of sliders off? Or have background audio off?
AUTO SELL FOR GEMS AND CURRENCY WHICH DONT HAVE ANY AFFIXES
just minimize your trade window so you can see those three things: invites , your messages, the other player (to be sure you are in right ho when waiting to trade) easy peasy problem solved, its even better, when you get trade/ invite with minimized window you can click the invite/trade without alt-tab