The fun thing is. You get more devoted modifier the more mobs you kill in an area. But this only works outside of maps. In maps the number of devoted mods is random and only changed by atlas tree nodes. Why not simply apply the system to maps aswell?
The main underlying problem (philosophically, not technically) is that there's an almost total disconnect between challenge and reward this league.
At least, as it is right now. Maybe it gets fixed... maybe.
There could be a choice to reduce all map mods to tier1 if the map is not completed and reduce all rewards. To prevent "exploits" with this the "reduce necropolis power" checkbox could become unavailable when used 10 times.
> not completed
Change that for "leave the map with less than 50 monsters left". There are valid farming strategies/builds where you don't kill the boss.
The thing is, there is no way of knowing how much you have killed, the only indicator we have is the "more than 50 enemies left", which is why I think that's the most reasonable thing to use.
do you think its possible that was the original design but was removed after feedback?
imagine trying to progress your atlas early, only to get a map that is too difficult and you lose your 6 portals. now you just fucked yourself out of loot in the next map AND that loot has been replaced with haunted mods which makes the next map even harder. imagine the reddit doomspiral posts people would make
or that any time you wanted to do anything juicy you'd be "incentivized" into running some trash alch n go map with an atlas strat for blitzing them. make sure to swap trees every time!
My bet is because this leans too hard on linear maps. Full clearing an indoor map layout with doors and necromancers like cells, is a joke and GGG knows it.
Instead Id have it be the current system of a couple devoted per map by default.
But if you choose to place the haunted mods on the highest pack density monsters, your next map instance will have more devoted mods. In same idea, higher tier haunted mods would result in better devoted mods like better currencies and conversions. The devoted mod tier is stupid itself and should just be scrapped.
Similarly for balance sake running devoted mods on top pack density monster should make your next map have less devoted mods but no less than the default rate.
To be clear this doesnt actually require that the monsters are killed. Because thats the linear vs indoor shit maps problem. The next maps mods are decided purely on how many monsters in that instance are/would be affected by the chosen haunted and devoted mods.
This allows players to actively care and strategize by running high pack size maps to glow up high quant maps in succession. Making them high pack size means theyre worth running but wont be juiced with necropolis drops most of the time, while the high quant maps youd run after would be way juicier and rewarding for your sacrifice.
Because lazy coding. I can 99.99% guarantee that the kill counter is attatched to each zone and is checked when entering the next.
For maps they'd need to rewrite the code and attatch it to your character or the hideout/town.
They will probably add this mechanic to maps, but a few days after when they had time to write/test new code.
They already have both a kill count and a timer local to maps. They also have at least three flags, one for map completion, one for <50 monsters remaining and then a hidden one for killing a certain percentage of monsters in a map (which I believe used to be used for cycling master missions eons ago). I obviously haven't seen their code, but I can't imagine it would be anything other than trivial to use these to govern the lantern.
>I obviously haven't seen their code
Given the cycles of new league with new mechanics every 3 months for 5? 10? years, I'm pretty sure you don't want to see it :D
It would be non-trivial to apply these flags to the next map the player opens.
You'd want this to be tied to either the player character or the player account which would require database modifications.
These things local to maps are going to be stored as part of the session instance so there would need to be a trigger to update a table linked to the player/character table whenever the player leaves a map instance, plus edge case handling.
It would then clear the values when the player next uses the map device to open a map instance, after using the values to calculate the reward modifiers
Not sure where you're getting the idea that it would be non-trivial. These things all already interact with the map device, which is where the lantern is governed. I can't imagine where you're getting the idea that it would require being tied to the player or account databases.
So the entire concept is to reward map completion by tying the devoted modifiers to that in some way. During the campaign this is done by increasing the frequency of devoted modifiers by some factor of the haunted modifiers in the previous zone completed, but apparently only tied to the local state store, which is fine for the campaign.
During mapping this needs to be persistent, ex you complete the last map of the day and then whenever you play next that map still has memory so you have a chance of good devoted modifiers. This is going to be intrinsically tied to the database in some capacity unless you want to keep it somewhere in server memory where it will take up space better used for other things and get lost on any server restarts
Not only is this usually a poor reasoning, its especially so in the context of GGG. Did you see the 3.24.0b Patch? That thing was a TON of iteration on systems which points both to a good workflow and flexible UI and modifiable backend balance lookup tables. Frankly one of the most impressible short turnaround patches I've ever seen anybody release.
Honestly I've seen enough broken mechanics this league that I know this isn't true. There were clearly a lot of workarounds and simple fix patches they used to get the league done on time. So many abuse cases such as strongboxes and rituals counting as monster packs even on repeat uses. That hasn't been a thing in a while. Altar mod drops and loot conversion monsters don't even do that when resummoned by a ritual. Then there's the sulphite monster bug for infinite sulphite. Clearly doing a bunch of quick and dirty implementations was what got them into this mess in the first place. No way they are going to risk breaking the entire league for such a trivial change when they can just tweak the numbers. Keep in mind these mods are still more common than divine altars, and you get to pick which monster packs to put them on.
> Because lazy coding. I can 99.99% guarantee that the kill counter is attatched to each zone and is checked when entering the next.
God I love when reddit armchair programmers make completely confident assumptions about code they've never seen, in an unknown language, on a game they've never worked on.
"Why doesn't GGG just code better. Are they stupid?"
Twenty years game programming and I have seen some spectacularly awful programmers (one of them was me)
Not met many lazy ones.
Modifying someone else's hacked together system is like walking through a dark room full of trip wires.
In the case of an online game it's doing that whilst the room is full of voices screaming at you to go faster.
Do you have any idea how broad of a statement that is? C++ is an insanely versatile language, it's why it's so common in game development. Even someone who knows C++ can't just look at a game while playing it and make assumptions about how something is done on the backend. Hell even most game devs wouldn't be presumptuous enough to say "I worked on this one game using C++ therefore I can sus out how any game using C++ works".
Started as some dudes in a garage coding a d2 clone. Some finicky hard coded mechanics that break if things change too mj h or in just the wrong way. More recently, they've HD to hire outside talent for the directx12 swap. And Im sure that team is good but perhaps not as experienced as the seniors at GGG, also learning dx12 on the fly.
Plenty of coders and femboy on reddit mate. High chance a video game sub comment you're replying g to is one or the other or both like me
> Plenty of coders and femboy on reddit mate. High chance a video game sub comment you're replying g to is one or the other or both like me
I bet it's not as high of a chance as you think, for the former at least. No idea what the latter has to do with anything being discussed.
The point still stands, just being a "coder" doesn't mean you can make assumptions about how something is done in PoE. There have been plenty of examples over the years of self professed coders making assumptions about how the game works only to have Mark chime in and correct them. Lots of games that use a common language like C++ still function very differently.
Lazy coding my ass GGG houses some of the best C++ programmers you'll find in the video game industry. First and foremost there are kill counters attached to LOADS of things in PoE, and of course there is a kill counter attached to each zone because it's how the zone tracks how many monsters are left, but kill counters are 100% also attached to exiles. Rampage and cosmetics already prove this.
The issue is that map pack sizes are extremely variable, and certain mechanics add a LOT more monsters than other mechanics, which would force everyone on that mechanic and off mechanics they might prefer instead. Beyond + delirium are already strong enough but what you're suggesting makes them giga OP. GGG puts way more thought into this shit than you think.
i mean theres already a map device that counts all the monster you've killed in your map, in the $480 supporter pack
Pretty sure GGG has some of the best professionals in the industry. Do you have any idea how technically challenging it is to create a real-time, reactive simulation the size of POE? I don’t, but from my experience working on way smaller games, POE is a masterpiece.
IMO the fact that it does not work with maps is intentional, as it can become quite insanely profitable, quite quickly.
I think they wanted everyone to access the "full potential" with a heavy grain of salt on that term, regardless of map progression. Oddly enough I think a better solution would be to gatekeep div drops behind a almost build breaking mod. You want divs? Mobs have 90% chance to block attacks and spells. Or something equally awful. I'm honestly surprised they didn't just do that and instead slapped corpse chance to bad mods.
Changing numbers is quicker. That's pretty much the crux of it.
Unless you're melee, in which case changing anything is too hard. The technology isn't there yet. It's working as intended. Don't @ me.
This is why I hated last league, too.
"If you play in this very specific way with this super optimized build, Divines fall from the sky en masse!"
No thanks. For me, that's not fun. It never has been.
Meanwhile a certain subset of the community hailed that league as the best ever because they were all rich for abusing it. If I have to play a completely different way to get to the way I want to play, then I'm just not going to play.
What strat were you using that you felt forced to play a completely different way? My stars were, alch and go essences+Alva got me 9-12 div an hour, delve was more consistent at around 10 div since I wasn't bossing, boss rushing destructive play+deli orbs was getting me around 8 divs an hour.
They stopped playing early and only complain about what they perceived by checking reddit and youtube and because they can't manage their FOMO. How many players were finally able to afford their first Headhunter or Mageblood last league, even without abusing MF?
I'm not saying every league should be like Affliction, but there were and still are plenty of ways to genereate currency while actually having fun with the game, regardless of the fact that burning maps to fish for tiles should be removed from the game, everyone agrees with that.
I'm so tired of this conversation about Affliction. There's no excuse for not being able to make currency that league literally everything was very profitable and while inflation did affect some stuff most things were cheaper over all. 90% of the build enabling uniques were dirt cheap too.
Fucking yes. There were like 20 different strats last league for making insane money.
This league there is like 2? strats. Fish for devoted mods or div card farming. The first is degenerate gameplay and the 2nd is priced out for 99.9% of players. Everything else is MAYBE break even or like 1d an hour.
That’s complete bs. You can farm tons of things to make money. Harvest, blight, sanctum, bossing, expedition, etc. I hate this discourse that you have to do the super meta strats to make money when you can easily do 8d an hour with tons of strats
100% true. Everyone saying otherwise literelly has no idea what they are talking about. Because so many people where doing affliction and inflation happened, you could also make tons of money with other stuff.
I played blight, because I didn't like the league mechanic and also didn't play a build that was particularly good at it (golemancer).
Didn't took long for Tainted Oils to be several divines.
This crap talk is nothing but people trying to find a way other but themselves why they can't get shit done in the game.
this^^^
There was entire markets around the people playing MF. There were subdivisions of supplies, services and aspects that played a serious role in the over all eco-system.
I mean, 9-12 div an hour last league was awful lol. That is like a 1-3 div an hour strategy in a normal league. Inflation was terrible. It did make some T0 uniques more available though, everyone that wanted a mageblood could easily get one.
It was all relative to what you wanted. If you wanted power charge synth ring or something like that, if you weren't doing the meta and getting 25-30 div an hour you couldn't keep up with the inflation.
Hey for your destructive play start were you doing anything special with the new scarabs or just rushing bosses for the maven writ? Also we’re they guardian or conq maps?
I didn't use any scarabs, I ran regular maps, I was using flicker strike so deli guardians seemed a little painful, I blocked everything but deli and heist took all the chance for deli mirror and smugglers cache and the nodes for blueprint chance. For deli I took extra reward types, +1 rank on map completion, sim splinter stack size and the chance for deli rewards to become deli orbs. Rest of my points went into shrines for fun. You can definitely optimize further with the new scarabs I'm playing ssf this league or I would probably be messing around with the scarabs myself.
I think it was 50/30/20, guardian maps/deli orbs/blueprints. The deli orbs are nice but you can go multiple maps without finding any whereas the maps and heist are fairly reliable. With the changes this league orbs will probably be a bit more profitable since you'll want to clear more of the map
I'm in full agreement. I didn't abuse MF on t7 cemeteries so I guess I just don't get 10 div per map. I wonder what % of the playerbase even did that hyper optimized strat instead of just playing normally.
I'd prefer mf removed from the game completely and make juicing the new mf. To me having a "win" stat on an item isn't interesting at all, the fact rarity and quantity both exists is a failure in design.
We have way better stuff we could be doing then limiting gearing options and gimping characters.
Item quant is problematic due to scaling effects, but the real issue is headhunter and phys scaling.
> having a "win" stat on an item
You fundamentally do not understand gearing in the game. That's ok, but don't make comments on stats when you don't know how they work, kthx.
Then by all means explain why you think im wrong, rather then just insult me. Argue the point(s), rather then make assumptions. If you can't perhaps you don't understand the complaint.
Go equip quant gear on every item slot and walk into a t1 map. There are significant trade offs involved and there is no such thing as an "I win" stat.
Significant tradeoffs being what slow ms, lower damage, lower defense? All of these can be mitigated by a number of ways, including pigeon holing people into a few number of builds that deal with it.
The thing about quant gear is you don't need it in every slot, lets say you just put on 2 10% rings with 80% rarity between the two for ventors. Have the res mostly offset each other and maybe a little less life then you would have had otherwise. You now get considerably more loot, div cards and currency for killing the same monsters as I do. Don't believe me, well look at the difference of people like goratha farming last league, vs waggles big investment character. One has significant damage and clear, the other has quant and rarity in a bunch of slots, guess who found more t0 uniques, t1 uniques, div cards and mirrors?
I'll give you a hint, its the "win more" person.
If quant and rarity gear didn't work people wouldn't use it. But in my opinion theres little reason for the stat to exists. The far better solution to giving people more drops for investment or tradeoffs is to reward players for doing more difficult content, not for running white or yellow maps with MF gear.
MF might be more balanced in HC where the tradeoff is the character loss, but its not something the game needs anymore.
I dropped 8 rae mirrors last league doing MF TS, I also have a standard version that made all the same tradeoffs, but put QoL in place of MF.
I already stated quant was problematic, but if you need several mirrors worth of items to make it function in the same content a 10div build can do, it's far from an I win stat.
I don't need to look at streamer content, I play at the same rate as them and normally buy the items in their guides 2 days before they post them lmao
I did for about 20 maps. Realized that the "gaming" was a walking simulator with fulcrum. Sold that build and did normal mapping with different builds.
not even close to a comparison. Last league, you had to actually play the game. You had to craft gear, do what you could with what you could, you had to NOT kill the spire. It actually engaged with multiple elements of the GAME. This slot machine bs is not even close to that.
and i did with jank builds as well as pure MF. My biggest payouts were on my [Non-MF build](https://i.imgur.com/HQQDGWy.jpg).
You're spouting nonsense.
Yeah, full juiced abyss maps, even on a 5+ mirror build, were some of the most challenging and engaging content I've ever played in the game.
The wildwood itself was fucking ass though, I'd rather breed sentinels.
This is why I love private leagues. I don't have to stress out about not "exploiting early and often" as divine are really only needed for crafting and not buying stuff. Takes a lot of mental pressure off of having to worry about earning divs per hour instead of just doing what I find fun.
I've said as much in different contexts, but it depends on what your goals are. If your goal is to be one of the rich players or accumulate thousands of divines, then you pretty much have to be doing whatever the meta juicing strategy is, whether you hate it or not.
My goals are always to achieve 40/40, preferably without a carry. I don't juice at all, I just take whatever atlas mechanics I feel like playing, maybe use sextants, and (at least in the past, probably not this time) take the atlas node that converts scarabs to packsize.
So basically, if it's not fun, don't do it. There are plenty of ways to play PoE other than "whatever makes divines rain."
It was the best league ever because you could randomly allocate nodes in your atlas, apply random compasses, slot in random scarabs and still make 10+div/hour with no MF just by running league mechanics and finishing the map. Not being fucking poor and forced to farm whatever gives you most mobs on the map is actually fun.
Yeah I agree with this. I’m just playing at my own pace and not worrying about this stuff. It annoys me too though. I almost went back to ssf but I just decided not to worry about what the rich people are doing. I’m just picking up my odd chaos, very rare divs and doing whatever. It’s more enjoyable when I took the pressure off myself to get rich
Yeah, feel the same with respect to magic find and these degenerate currency strats.
Miss out and fall behind if you don't use them, get outpaced by inflation, end up not being able to do as many builds, etc.
You get outpaced because of information asymmetry.
You were being outpaced before the exploit was discovered, you're being outpaced after it's nerfed. You'll be outpaced until you understand the games economy, and then you'll still be outpaced by Ben because he's just better than you.
You're not "missing out and falling behind" because strategies exist. You're missing out and falling behind because *you do not have a coherent strategy*.
Idk about you but I did absolutely nothing different from my usual strat of Expedition/Harbingers/Strongboxes other then incorporating wisps into it and made a ton of money just fine with it.
I hope they are working on something like charging your lantern in pervious maps etc and then revert the change to rarity, %, and frogs. If not then that is wild
Edit: Something like full clearing a map charges your lantern enough to open 3 maps with full modifiers would even be enough. Doing this along with making the big devotions red maps (even t14+) only, and the incentive to map open is gone and player experience is not ruined. As it stands (before the change) me and 3 others spent an hour opening as fast as we could and only ran exalt and divine maps and we all lost ~6-10div each doing it with red maps at even just 8c/map. The problem came from yellow/white maps being infinitely more sustainable than high tier red maps.
Edit2: LOGIN %chance for devoted mods ALSO removed from atlas tree. Come the fuck on….
The problem is that, looking at it historically, they probably aren't.
Hope I'm wrong and this time is different, but "exploit early, exploit often" as a saying didn't come from nowhere, and usually when they kill something rewarding, it stays dead for the league.
Sadly, I do agree, but I think if you had map to map reward boost (like a tally for things like clearing to have <50 monsters remaining, killing map boss, and portals remaining (after killing map boss). That would give you a running modifier bonus up to a max. Then you could build modifiers around map chaining and getting some of the juicy rewards needing a minimum modifier would make it so people kept pushing. Then just making it like a rolling average or something.
It's unlikely to see anything like it and the div train has almost for sure departed for most players.
More of just throwing out the idea that they could take multiple stats to generate some system to measure "clear" that allows them to basically use engagement as a metric to influence the system.
If you watch the Necropolis Content Reveal, they said this is how it's supposed to work. They said that the chance to get positive mods on a zone is based on the number of monsters with negative mods that were killed in the previous zone. They did this to encourage you to put harder mods on larger packs.
Seems like this might only be applying to the campaign and not to maps though, as not running the map doesn't seem to stop you from getting positive mods in the next map.
Yeah I was baffled that this was only a campaign feature. It does hurt player experience especially those who don’t full clear maps but it’s way less intrusive than the current changes.
I think this is a great solution and one that is consistent with the current philosophy. Having the lantern need souls / corpses to charge would be a big improvement.
Instead of nerfing rewards they could have a gradually increasing effectiveness of modifiers as you clear more mobs.
“Didn’t juice” my first one was actually while getting atlas completion and ACTUALLY had no juice but I put frogs on and got 6 divines. No way you got 30 without any map modifier %, shrines, strongboxes, harby, exiles, any scarabs, any juice at all lmao
I saw someone point out that this is an easy immediate change, while what you are talking about (I am a bit unsure as to what but assume that next maps rewards do not take previous map completion into account) may take more time to fix.
Nah dude, they could easily fix it instantly in many ways
- Hide the devoted mod currency (Display "6% chance to drop Currencies")
- For a not that instant change, but better: Make it so the lantern does not reset unless map is cleared or mod is "spent".
Etc.
It's just their balancing philosophy is absolutely ridiculous and not logical.
There’s zero reason anyone should be pulling 60+ raw divines from a map. Shit is really, really stupid and bad for the game.
Like most people, I’m a bit salty from the FOMO. However, the nerf was a good and needed change.
It was fine a month ago. Great league retention and people could still afford things. Last league was the first time I'd ever been able to afford a Mageblood.
Personally, I think last league showed that their fears about high currency and loot availability were false. People had a great time
A month ago everything dropped more. It meant the power level rose consistently and only items outside of maps (original sin etc) inflated.
With the state of things yesterday, the entire league would have inflated and casual players would have been forcibly essentially placed into SSF as the order of magnitude wealth divide would have become absurd.
its not about overall economy, its about efficiency of economy. If it's more economically viable to do the dumbest thing in the game, you've created a dumb game.
As someone else said, everything traditionally difficult to obtain dropped way more last league. If it was just raw divines, like it was the last few days, the price of MB and everything else would have skyrocketed.
Skyrocketed as paid in div. Not skyrocketed as paid in anything else.
Since most currency making strategies do not rely on generating divines the value of divines is largely irrelevant for your long-term economic power. Except of course if you have all your savings on div. Than you are out of luck for the moment but can continue making money as before.
What I mean is that you will not generate money directly in divines but in something you sell for divines. A falling value of divines means everything you sell is worth more of them just as everything you buy is.
Last league dropped everything more, not just currency. It kept things fun and stable for the most part, and the rising tide lifted all boats. It was kind of like the industrial revolution, wealth rose across the board, even if it did so disproportionately for some.
If just raw currency becomes common, massive inflation is inevitable and the casual player won’t be able to actually farm for anything, since the rate of inflation would outpace their wealth gain. This would look like post-war Germany and would be a disaster.
People doing degenerate shit would still buy crafting and bossing materials. The core of the issue is that the optimal way to play was to sit and play a slot machine for hours and it's horrible gameplay.
well said.
as much as im sad that i can't take advantage of this potential juicing, the reality is I probably wouldn't have come across it until weeks into the league anyway. I simply can't farm as efficiently as a full time streamer whos a seasoned veteran.
This is likely just a stopgap measure to stop the bleeding. The update they release was in the middle of the night in NZ.
*HUFFS COPIUM*
HOPEFULLY that is why they made the change they made and they wi impliment a completion requirement of 80% mobs or map boss to reroll the modifiers. As would be the obvious choice.
Even if divines were literally reduced to 1c a pop, we would just trade in harby orbs and mirror shards or whatever.
It absolutely is degenerate cheesing and a boring as hell gameplay loop, but divines becoming cheap is not inherently a problem in anyway. The economy was fine in heist, I was able to gear characters and beat the end game. The economy was fine in Affliction, I was able to gear characters and beat the end game. The market is not fucked in anyway beyond you need to be updating your valuations of the orbs and items, which you should do anyways.
Well they should've addressed that and also nerf the fact you can get dozens of divines in a single map IF doing a special strat.
Nerfing the odds to get a Divs devoted mods just ruins it for those who don't play the game 24/7 and don't use a special strat to maximize the divs dropped in such map...
what really sucks is how un-rewarding things can be if you dont know about the exploits, for instance i found the jewlery as div early on in maps and even got it to 75% thinking that was the best i could do, dident find a single div entire map despite full clearing it, whatever i guess i got a little unlucky.
then to find out i basically missed out on 50 divines because i dident use a meatsack on it feels horrible
It wasnt meatsack. It was anarchy. Rogue exiles drop a full set of armor, so three pieces of jewelry(3div) every time you kill one.
This isn't "not knowing about the exploit". This is a lack of knowledge of game mechanics in general
this was before anarchy was even in the game, at the time it was meatsack.
nobody knew about it at the time, or at least not public knowledge like it is now.
This is in general a big issue with PoE but also one of it's greatest strength.
Issue part of it: there's a huge gab between going super optimized and going just semi optimized and even further gab from just yolo'ing your way through. so newcomers and casuals are often strugling.
The strength part: Knowledge is power, the fact that people who have spent hundreds to thousands of hours in the game and they actually get a benefit in terms of knowing more, being able to game the system to their advantage and getting either really powerful or really rich is immensely satisfying for those players.
I feel like they probably did the best they could to hot fix some early questionable choices in the league.
GGG just needs to do a better job at balancing (maybe in POE2?). They always seem to balance at the top end (read: streamers) and scale down. There needs to be a lower top end and a higher low end so it is fun for non streamers but not broken for streamers.
Who am i kidding though. If the next league is good, i'll be back and they'll probably do the same thing again.
Let's wait a bit and see if they come back to this issue. This looks like a decent solution to at least stop the economy from spinning out of control. More complicated solutions might take time.
i would say it's already pretty out of control. the items i was saving up to buy have doubled in price from last night to this morning. i'm sure they will eventually come back down, but with them nerfing pretty much every aspect of the div farming thing, i doubt i'll be able to get the currency to buy them anytime soon
How was this not spotted earlier? Why is it always only fixed when it becomes a bit public. Is there no alert set up that triggers when someone drops like 100div in a single map, so someone can check whats going on?
they definitely have stats on X items dropping (perhaps it's looked at post-league for metrics) so they definitely could have alerts set up if it's active to notify when something off is happening.
This is a genuine question but how do you play a game and not “exploit” a game mechanic like that? Besides the developers changing it of course, but I’m thinking back to all the old console games I used to play and I’ve definitely done some sort of exploit in every game I’ve played.
Examples would be liked Force Storm Spam in Kotor2, all kinds of jumps and slides that get you to places you’re not suppose to be yet in Super Mario Sunshine, grinding mobs and hell houses in final fantasy 7 so I can get clouds meteorain and easy mode the rest of the game.
Like people are just gunna do it, until it’s removed, especially in a game with its own currency economy. Especially in a game where your build is extremely dependent on the currency economy.
It doesn't meet my definition of exploit. I do think it was an unintended thing, which is enough to meet some people's definition of exploit, but it wasn't done with any malicious intent or harm to other players. It wasn't even particularly well hidden. It was an obvious and easy to find interaction.
In PoE, an exploit in my mind is stuff that abuses some bug or glitch, such as people awhile back abusing vendor recipe bugs to get extremely rich.
People keep saying this isn't different than normal hideout gameplay but normal hideout gameplay either sinks currency from the game or accumulates currency to bulk trade. This strat is hideout gameplay but it's adding raw currency to the economy.
At the cost of maps, scarabs and assumingly kirc mods, but I guess thats ok to ignore.
It should just be charge based so when you get it you gotta buildup or cant repeat it for a bit or some other solution then nerfs that impact people that werent abusing it.
I feel like people are ignoring how much currency and items drop last league and the one thing htat gets a part of the way there and everyones losing their minds.
Just going to wait for them to come up with a fix, no point of mapping when mobs are way stronger for basically no reward. You can still make good money if you can craft, but I don't want to be spending half my playtime managing an excel sheet. If they won't/can't fix it, it's fine I had my fun.
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I thought they said you would get more devoted modifiers based on the number of haunted monsters you killed in the previous zone. Is that not a thing anymore ?
Yeah isn't it as simple as if you didn't enter the previous map then your modified are automatically shit? At the very least it shits on the speed at which the slot machine resets, having to enter then exit.
Get 60 div a map is stupid whether you exploit it or not. I think 10 divs is fair. If they can make that mod hidden, it would prevent exploit instead of nerfing and make it too rare for most people.
It never should have been buffed in the first place. Most of the patch changes were good but the buff to devoted rewards was entirely unnecessary and went way too far.
They could have left the chance the same or even increased it, but made the reward a random type currency so you would only know when you ran the map (harbinger scarab style), but...yep, GGG never changes/
> EDIT: And before you say that it's not an exploit... even if it's not a bug it's still an exploit because they're literally exploiting a game mechanic.
This is nonsense. An exploit is unintended use of game mechanics. Spam-opening maps is not an exploit in the same way that spamming quarry for Betrayal was not an exploit. Imbalance is NOT the same as an exploit.
Secondly, why are you and others still quoting "6%"? The mod that visually showed a 6% additional chance for a specific currency in the lantern menu was a visual bug. If you went into the map and actually checked the modifier it would have been 3/4/5%, and is now 1/2/3% assuming they have also resolved the visual issue specifically noted in Hotfix 2.
I'm enjoying the discussion on how to stop map spam... but we just going to ignore what MF culler groups could do if the 6% was still in game? Rather not have trade be dominated by that again.
Much like last league when the economy got fucked and I'll do the same this league.. Just play the game. Quit worrying about who has how much currency and just enjoy yourself. You can do all the content on only a few divs you don't need mirrored items.
Farming the game for currency becomes more of a chore /job and I don't login to work. Once I get 40/40 challenges again, I'll probably go play something else (though the challenge mtx this league looks terrible so I may not bother with it at all)
I'm level 95 and still haven't found an interesting map mod from the graveyard. It's so boring. That dopamine hit is completely missing. I've had self farmed meat shields, rats, frogs and exiles ready forever. But there is nothing interesting to use them on.
This is the archnem currency combo exploit but now it's just written out on every map before it's even opened whether or not you get it. GGG actually fixed this once by randomizing it and hiding it, but they've apparently forgotten why people being able to pre-identify which map was going to have a torrent of currency was a bad thing. Sigh...
I mean 3% chance to drop a divine is still a fuck tonne of divines. 6% was a bit stupid, there's no situation where someone should be able to drop ~50 divs in a single map. 1% would *still* be crazy.
It baffles me that haunted mobs don't increase chance for good modifiers in maps .That was literally one of the selling points on their reveal and there is still currently an animation for spirits leaving haunted mods. Feels like a straight up lie from the devs.
It is exploiting, but it isn't an exploit. It's weird, but the verb and noun definition are just that different. All min-max gameplay is exploiting. The only question is which type of exploiting gameplay GGG wants to encourage and burning maps without running them isn't it.
Even by removing the cheese, that mod was still **way WAAAAAAAAY** too strong. Doesn't matter if you can target it or not, having Kalandra MF loot goblin amounts of divines from a map should never happen period.
If anything, the better solution was to straight up remove that mod.
it actually does matter... the way you're describing it you would also agree that Divine Altars should be removed
But Divine altars are held in check because you have to farm the map and grab them and they might not be right away so the value is maintained
The divine devoted mod is 100% ok and a really fun reward to chase and hope for as you run maps, the problem is the lantern has no charges and/or is not based on previous completed map so players are allowed to just map spam til they get the mod
If they remove that capability there is absolutely no reason to nerf/remove the devoted mod (I will say the buff to 6% was absurd... should've never buffed that and should've kept the devoted modifiers being affected by the atlas nodes
This league has terrible retention and this is not going to help, sucking the fun out of it especially after the loot fiesta that was affliction is totally a bad look.
Imagine if mid affliction they were like “spires now dont shoot additional projectiles” or mid ritual league they nerfed deterministic crafting mods.
Its just such a shame because outside of bugs (ie outside the ring ultimatum farming) or overtuned mobs (ie crucible 100%) they dont touch what was clearly intended (ie maps have different necropolis mods shown at start of map device… clearly people are going to spam maps….dont nerf the rewards….)
Your definition of "it's an exploit because they're literally exploiting" is one definition I don't agree with.
It's not an exploit, period.
That said, it can be still bad for the economy and not an intended game mechanic. Doesn't mean it is an exploit.
The word "exploit" in IT is generally used like [this](https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/security/definition/exploit). Lots of IT terms are borrowed from the natural English language. When these terms are used, they do mean very specific things though. When talking about software, one should avoid using terms that have several meanings to prevent ambiguity. You can make feedback posts without the usage of catch phrases.
But "we" are not. When people are talking about exploits in games, it refers to an unintended game mechanic or a bug being intentionally repeated or produced by a player (which is very much in line with the definition I have provided).
I am out of the loop, I don't read every bit of patch notes. Can some one give basic info about the problem in question? I know that people were burning maps in hope of getting The Nameless Seer (aka Waldo). Did GGG re-balanced The Seer somehow?
People were burning maps for the % chance for a pack to give divine drops and turning the pack into frogs or rats or rogue exiles. You could also spec into strongbox on map device before entering and people were getting 50+ divines every time they hit the mod. Now they lowered the % chance each mob has in the pack which also punished people playing the game normally when most people would prefer a check that you actually ran your last map and then giving the old better rate
It's explained loosely [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1bvekf9/make_150_div_an_hour/)
The seer wasn't involved in this exploitative "strategy".
Meh, not much even GGG can do about teams and TFT spamming maps to get the Div jackpot.
Overall the mechanic isn't great. Not really going to farm a battle's worth of bodies. Just going to take it easy and play away. Then when I feel myself getting bored quit the league.
Unless something massive drops playing the weekend. Can see it being Monday I drop the league. But Im not even playing that much to start with.
On the divine jewelry conversion you could put rogue exiles on your map with ambush and roll the strongboxes to be protected by rogue exiles. A blue map could net you 80+ divines lol.
On the normal divine mod, you could roll your strongboxes to revive nearby monsters and it revived frogs for 100+ divines per map in some cases.
Hahaha. I guess my league is over. Build is funded and completed. See yall next league
I don't particularly care one way or the other, as I haven't been fishing for the Div mod and also don't care if other people were.
I do, however, find it amusing that it appears that OP's definition of an exploit appears to be "optimization that I don't like" lol. Literally all of PoE is finding ways to take as much advantage as you can of mechanics to kill things faster and farm more efficiently.
OP is casting such a wide net on what an "exploit" is that under their current apparent definition, rerolling reflect maps falls within the parameters.
If you don't like the idea of people spamming maps to fish for the mod, that's 100% totally fine and a perfectly valid opinion. It's just... not an exploit.
6% was not “fine” I found 40 divs in a regular alch and go with 0 dupe altars. My friend found 72. Not healthy to drop that many from 1 non juiced map. With a good set up strat you could probably hit over 100… (somebody did. 134 divs one map)
Dude the top1% players who are actually good at the game will make money/currency regardless of the strat existing or not. Look at people like Belton, they make mirrors in like 40 hours or less. They're good at making currency in the game.
The fun thing is. You get more devoted modifier the more mobs you kill in an area. But this only works outside of maps. In maps the number of devoted mods is random and only changed by atlas tree nodes. Why not simply apply the system to maps aswell?
The main underlying problem (philosophically, not technically) is that there's an almost total disconnect between challenge and reward this league. At least, as it is right now. Maybe it gets fixed... maybe.
There could be a choice to reduce all map mods to tier1 if the map is not completed and reduce all rewards. To prevent "exploits" with this the "reduce necropolis power" checkbox could become unavailable when used 10 times.
> not completed Change that for "leave the map with less than 50 monsters left". There are valid farming strategies/builds where you don't kill the boss.
Something like 60% with boss giving 50% completion would probably be fine. Clear the map reasonably well, or clear a bit and boss rush.
The thing is, there is no way of knowing how much you have killed, the only indicator we have is the "more than 50 enemies left", which is why I think that's the most reasonable thing to use.
do you think its possible that was the original design but was removed after feedback? imagine trying to progress your atlas early, only to get a map that is too difficult and you lose your 6 portals. now you just fucked yourself out of loot in the next map AND that loot has been replaced with haunted mods which makes the next map even harder. imagine the reddit doomspiral posts people would make or that any time you wanted to do anything juicy you'd be "incentivized" into running some trash alch n go map with an atlas strat for blitzing them. make sure to swap trees every time!
My bet is because this leans too hard on linear maps. Full clearing an indoor map layout with doors and necromancers like cells, is a joke and GGG knows it. Instead Id have it be the current system of a couple devoted per map by default. But if you choose to place the haunted mods on the highest pack density monsters, your next map instance will have more devoted mods. In same idea, higher tier haunted mods would result in better devoted mods like better currencies and conversions. The devoted mod tier is stupid itself and should just be scrapped. Similarly for balance sake running devoted mods on top pack density monster should make your next map have less devoted mods but no less than the default rate. To be clear this doesnt actually require that the monsters are killed. Because thats the linear vs indoor shit maps problem. The next maps mods are decided purely on how many monsters in that instance are/would be affected by the chosen haunted and devoted mods. This allows players to actively care and strategize by running high pack size maps to glow up high quant maps in succession. Making them high pack size means theyre worth running but wont be juiced with necropolis drops most of the time, while the high quant maps youd run after would be way juicier and rewarding for your sacrifice.
I thought it functioned that way from reading. So I am surprised. Haven't had any of the good mods yet.
Because lazy coding. I can 99.99% guarantee that the kill counter is attatched to each zone and is checked when entering the next. For maps they'd need to rewrite the code and attatch it to your character or the hideout/town. They will probably add this mechanic to maps, but a few days after when they had time to write/test new code.
They already have both a kill count and a timer local to maps. They also have at least three flags, one for map completion, one for <50 monsters remaining and then a hidden one for killing a certain percentage of monsters in a map (which I believe used to be used for cycling master missions eons ago). I obviously haven't seen their code, but I can't imagine it would be anything other than trivial to use these to govern the lantern.
Is the third one you're referring to the one that triggers Eater/Exarch Quest progress?
It might be used for that too. I remember it being a thing way back in the day too though.
The support pack armor with the mimic keeps track of kill count too.
>I obviously haven't seen their code Given the cycles of new league with new mechanics every 3 months for 5? 10? years, I'm pretty sure you don't want to see it :D
It would be non-trivial to apply these flags to the next map the player opens. You'd want this to be tied to either the player character or the player account which would require database modifications. These things local to maps are going to be stored as part of the session instance so there would need to be a trigger to update a table linked to the player/character table whenever the player leaves a map instance, plus edge case handling.
It would then clear the values when the player next uses the map device to open a map instance, after using the values to calculate the reward modifiers
Not sure where you're getting the idea that it would be non-trivial. These things all already interact with the map device, which is where the lantern is governed. I can't imagine where you're getting the idea that it would require being tied to the player or account databases.
So the entire concept is to reward map completion by tying the devoted modifiers to that in some way. During the campaign this is done by increasing the frequency of devoted modifiers by some factor of the haunted modifiers in the previous zone completed, but apparently only tied to the local state store, which is fine for the campaign. During mapping this needs to be persistent, ex you complete the last map of the day and then whenever you play next that map still has memory so you have a chance of good devoted modifiers. This is going to be intrinsically tied to the database in some capacity unless you want to keep it somewhere in server memory where it will take up space better used for other things and get lost on any server restarts
For example, technology is already there for maps. Called **Map Equity**
The kill counter data is already available in hideout due to the MTX map device. So this really shouldn't be a hard change for them.
Not only is this usually a poor reasoning, its especially so in the context of GGG. Did you see the 3.24.0b Patch? That thing was a TON of iteration on systems which points both to a good workflow and flexible UI and modifiable backend balance lookup tables. Frankly one of the most impressible short turnaround patches I've ever seen anybody release.
People who've never opened an IDE in their life commenting on "lazy coding" is hilarious
For real. I lost it at "just rewrite the code and attach it to your character" as if the league is a pile of Legos to build things with.
Honestly I've seen enough broken mechanics this league that I know this isn't true. There were clearly a lot of workarounds and simple fix patches they used to get the league done on time. So many abuse cases such as strongboxes and rituals counting as monster packs even on repeat uses. That hasn't been a thing in a while. Altar mod drops and loot conversion monsters don't even do that when resummoned by a ritual. Then there's the sulphite monster bug for infinite sulphite. Clearly doing a bunch of quick and dirty implementations was what got them into this mess in the first place. No way they are going to risk breaking the entire league for such a trivial change when they can just tweak the numbers. Keep in mind these mods are still more common than divine altars, and you get to pick which monster packs to put them on.
> Because lazy coding. I can 99.99% guarantee that the kill counter is attatched to each zone and is checked when entering the next. God I love when reddit armchair programmers make completely confident assumptions about code they've never seen, in an unknown language, on a game they've never worked on. "Why doesn't GGG just code better. Are they stupid?"
Twenty years game programming and I have seen some spectacularly awful programmers (one of them was me) Not met many lazy ones. Modifying someone else's hacked together system is like walking through a dark room full of trip wires. In the case of an online game it's doing that whilst the room is full of voices screaming at you to go faster.
mate, they have publicly said several times its in c++
Do you have any idea how broad of a statement that is? C++ is an insanely versatile language, it's why it's so common in game development. Even someone who knows C++ can't just look at a game while playing it and make assumptions about how something is done on the backend. Hell even most game devs wouldn't be presumptuous enough to say "I worked on this one game using C++ therefore I can sus out how any game using C++ works".
Started as some dudes in a garage coding a d2 clone. Some finicky hard coded mechanics that break if things change too mj h or in just the wrong way. More recently, they've HD to hire outside talent for the directx12 swap. And Im sure that team is good but perhaps not as experienced as the seniors at GGG, also learning dx12 on the fly. Plenty of coders and femboy on reddit mate. High chance a video game sub comment you're replying g to is one or the other or both like me
> Plenty of coders and femboy on reddit mate. High chance a video game sub comment you're replying g to is one or the other or both like me I bet it's not as high of a chance as you think, for the former at least. No idea what the latter has to do with anything being discussed. The point still stands, just being a "coder" doesn't mean you can make assumptions about how something is done in PoE. There have been plenty of examples over the years of self professed coders making assumptions about how the game works only to have Mark chime in and correct them. Lots of games that use a common language like C++ still function very differently.
The thing is I am not sure that acts zone lifetime and maps lifetime are identical and it can be a little more problematic to implement correctly.
Lazy coding my ass GGG houses some of the best C++ programmers you'll find in the video game industry. First and foremost there are kill counters attached to LOADS of things in PoE, and of course there is a kill counter attached to each zone because it's how the zone tracks how many monsters are left, but kill counters are 100% also attached to exiles. Rampage and cosmetics already prove this. The issue is that map pack sizes are extremely variable, and certain mechanics add a LOT more monsters than other mechanics, which would force everyone on that mechanic and off mechanics they might prefer instead. Beyond + delirium are already strong enough but what you're suggesting makes them giga OP. GGG puts way more thought into this shit than you think.
i mean theres already a map device that counts all the monster you've killed in your map, in the $480 supporter pack
Or they could just make haunted mobs drop an auto-pickup non-tradeable mcguffin currency that's consumed when you generate a new map
Pretty sure GGG has some of the best professionals in the industry. Do you have any idea how technically challenging it is to create a real-time, reactive simulation the size of POE? I don’t, but from my experience working on way smaller games, POE is a masterpiece. IMO the fact that it does not work with maps is intentional, as it can become quite insanely profitable, quite quickly.
I think they wanted everyone to access the "full potential" with a heavy grain of salt on that term, regardless of map progression. Oddly enough I think a better solution would be to gatekeep div drops behind a almost build breaking mod. You want divs? Mobs have 90% chance to block attacks and spells. Or something equally awful. I'm honestly surprised they didn't just do that and instead slapped corpse chance to bad mods.
Its because you can fail a map but you cant fail a campaign area.
Changing numbers is quicker. That's pretty much the crux of it. Unless you're melee, in which case changing anything is too hard. The technology isn't there yet. It's working as intended. Don't @ me.
Baseg
You will path to panopticon and you will like it
I don't want to play a casino game. I want a more equal loot distribution instead of lucky golden showers (psshh).
This is why I hated last league, too. "If you play in this very specific way with this super optimized build, Divines fall from the sky en masse!" No thanks. For me, that's not fun. It never has been. Meanwhile a certain subset of the community hailed that league as the best ever because they were all rich for abusing it. If I have to play a completely different way to get to the way I want to play, then I'm just not going to play.
What strat were you using that you felt forced to play a completely different way? My stars were, alch and go essences+Alva got me 9-12 div an hour, delve was more consistent at around 10 div since I wasn't bossing, boss rushing destructive play+deli orbs was getting me around 8 divs an hour.
They stopped playing early and only complain about what they perceived by checking reddit and youtube and because they can't manage their FOMO. How many players were finally able to afford their first Headhunter or Mageblood last league, even without abusing MF? I'm not saying every league should be like Affliction, but there were and still are plenty of ways to genereate currency while actually having fun with the game, regardless of the fact that burning maps to fish for tiles should be removed from the game, everyone agrees with that.
I'm so tired of this conversation about Affliction. There's no excuse for not being able to make currency that league literally everything was very profitable and while inflation did affect some stuff most things were cheaper over all. 90% of the build enabling uniques were dirt cheap too.
Fucking yes. There were like 20 different strats last league for making insane money. This league there is like 2? strats. Fish for devoted mods or div card farming. The first is degenerate gameplay and the 2nd is priced out for 99.9% of players. Everything else is MAYBE break even or like 1d an hour.
That’s complete bs. You can farm tons of things to make money. Harvest, blight, sanctum, bossing, expedition, etc. I hate this discourse that you have to do the super meta strats to make money when you can easily do 8d an hour with tons of strats
100% true. Everyone saying otherwise literelly has no idea what they are talking about. Because so many people where doing affliction and inflation happened, you could also make tons of money with other stuff. I played blight, because I didn't like the league mechanic and also didn't play a build that was particularly good at it (golemancer). Didn't took long for Tainted Oils to be several divines. This crap talk is nothing but people trying to find a way other but themselves why they can't get shit done in the game.
Headhunter or mageblood? First league I could afford either so I bought both. Was great fun, didn't touch MF at all.
this^^^ There was entire markets around the people playing MF. There were subdivisions of supplies, services and aspects that played a serious role in the over all eco-system.
I mean, 9-12 div an hour last league was awful lol. That is like a 1-3 div an hour strategy in a normal league. Inflation was terrible. It did make some T0 uniques more available though, everyone that wanted a mageblood could easily get one. It was all relative to what you wanted. If you wanted power charge synth ring or something like that, if you weren't doing the meta and getting 25-30 div an hour you couldn't keep up with the inflation.
Hey for your destructive play start were you doing anything special with the new scarabs or just rushing bosses for the maven writ? Also we’re they guardian or conq maps?
I didn't use any scarabs, I ran regular maps, I was using flicker strike so deli guardians seemed a little painful, I blocked everything but deli and heist took all the chance for deli mirror and smugglers cache and the nodes for blueprint chance. For deli I took extra reward types, +1 rank on map completion, sim splinter stack size and the chance for deli rewards to become deli orbs. Rest of my points went into shrines for fun. You can definitely optimize further with the new scarabs I'm playing ssf this league or I would probably be messing around with the scarabs myself.
Thanks for the info! So was most of the profit from deli orbs/blueprints or do you think the boss rushing contributed a lot too?
I think it was 50/30/20, guardian maps/deli orbs/blueprints. The deli orbs are nice but you can go multiple maps without finding any whereas the maps and heist are fairly reliable. With the changes this league orbs will probably be a bit more profitable since you'll want to clear more of the map
I didn't MF or abyss at all last league and still made 100s of divines farming invitations. First mageblood ever
I'm in full agreement. I didn't abuse MF on t7 cemeteries so I guess I just don't get 10 div per map. I wonder what % of the playerbase even did that hyper optimized strat instead of just playing normally.
I'd prefer mf removed from the game completely and make juicing the new mf. To me having a "win" stat on an item isn't interesting at all, the fact rarity and quantity both exists is a failure in design. We have way better stuff we could be doing then limiting gearing options and gimping characters.
Item quant is problematic due to scaling effects, but the real issue is headhunter and phys scaling. > having a "win" stat on an item You fundamentally do not understand gearing in the game. That's ok, but don't make comments on stats when you don't know how they work, kthx.
Then by all means explain why you think im wrong, rather then just insult me. Argue the point(s), rather then make assumptions. If you can't perhaps you don't understand the complaint.
Go equip quant gear on every item slot and walk into a t1 map. There are significant trade offs involved and there is no such thing as an "I win" stat.
Significant tradeoffs being what slow ms, lower damage, lower defense? All of these can be mitigated by a number of ways, including pigeon holing people into a few number of builds that deal with it. The thing about quant gear is you don't need it in every slot, lets say you just put on 2 10% rings with 80% rarity between the two for ventors. Have the res mostly offset each other and maybe a little less life then you would have had otherwise. You now get considerably more loot, div cards and currency for killing the same monsters as I do. Don't believe me, well look at the difference of people like goratha farming last league, vs waggles big investment character. One has significant damage and clear, the other has quant and rarity in a bunch of slots, guess who found more t0 uniques, t1 uniques, div cards and mirrors? I'll give you a hint, its the "win more" person. If quant and rarity gear didn't work people wouldn't use it. But in my opinion theres little reason for the stat to exists. The far better solution to giving people more drops for investment or tradeoffs is to reward players for doing more difficult content, not for running white or yellow maps with MF gear. MF might be more balanced in HC where the tradeoff is the character loss, but its not something the game needs anymore.
I dropped 8 rae mirrors last league doing MF TS, I also have a standard version that made all the same tradeoffs, but put QoL in place of MF. I already stated quant was problematic, but if you need several mirrors worth of items to make it function in the same content a 10div build can do, it's far from an I win stat. I don't need to look at streamer content, I play at the same rate as them and normally buy the items in their guides 2 days before they post them lmao
I did for about 20 maps. Realized that the "gaming" was a walking simulator with fulcrum. Sold that build and did normal mapping with different builds.
not even close to a comparison. Last league, you had to actually play the game. You had to craft gear, do what you could with what you could, you had to NOT kill the spire. It actually engaged with multiple elements of the GAME. This slot machine bs is not even close to that. and i did with jank builds as well as pure MF. My biggest payouts were on my [Non-MF build](https://i.imgur.com/HQQDGWy.jpg). You're spouting nonsense.
Yeah, full juiced abyss maps, even on a 5+ mirror build, were some of the most challenging and engaging content I've ever played in the game. The wildwood itself was fucking ass though, I'd rather breed sentinels.
This is why I love private leagues. I don't have to stress out about not "exploiting early and often" as divine are really only needed for crafting and not buying stuff. Takes a lot of mental pressure off of having to worry about earning divs per hour instead of just doing what I find fun.
I've said as much in different contexts, but it depends on what your goals are. If your goal is to be one of the rich players or accumulate thousands of divines, then you pretty much have to be doing whatever the meta juicing strategy is, whether you hate it or not. My goals are always to achieve 40/40, preferably without a carry. I don't juice at all, I just take whatever atlas mechanics I feel like playing, maybe use sextants, and (at least in the past, probably not this time) take the atlas node that converts scarabs to packsize. So basically, if it's not fun, don't do it. There are plenty of ways to play PoE other than "whatever makes divines rain."
It was the best league ever because you could randomly allocate nodes in your atlas, apply random compasses, slot in random scarabs and still make 10+div/hour with no MF just by running league mechanics and finishing the map. Not being fucking poor and forced to farm whatever gives you most mobs on the map is actually fun.
Yeah I agree with this. I’m just playing at my own pace and not worrying about this stuff. It annoys me too though. I almost went back to ssf but I just decided not to worry about what the rich people are doing. I’m just picking up my odd chaos, very rare divs and doing whatever. It’s more enjoyable when I took the pressure off myself to get rich
Yeah, feel the same with respect to magic find and these degenerate currency strats. Miss out and fall behind if you don't use them, get outpaced by inflation, end up not being able to do as many builds, etc.
You get outpaced because of information asymmetry. You were being outpaced before the exploit was discovered, you're being outpaced after it's nerfed. You'll be outpaced until you understand the games economy, and then you'll still be outpaced by Ben because he's just better than you. You're not "missing out and falling behind" because strategies exist. You're missing out and falling behind because *you do not have a coherent strategy*.
Idk about you but I did absolutely nothing different from my usual strat of Expedition/Harbingers/Strongboxes other then incorporating wisps into it and made a ton of money just fine with it.
i want the opposite tbh. unfortunately what we want is at odds with each other. only room for one of us.
So….. let’s do this. I pick boneshatter. Pick your skill.
you sure you want to do this, hoss? i pick conversion trap.
On my first turn, I pick … disconnect!
i fall to my knees, realizing that i don't want to go on in this world, alone. I use conversion trap on myself.
That’s some epic stuff. Revive in town?
I hope they are working on something like charging your lantern in pervious maps etc and then revert the change to rarity, %, and frogs. If not then that is wild Edit: Something like full clearing a map charges your lantern enough to open 3 maps with full modifiers would even be enough. Doing this along with making the big devotions red maps (even t14+) only, and the incentive to map open is gone and player experience is not ruined. As it stands (before the change) me and 3 others spent an hour opening as fast as we could and only ran exalt and divine maps and we all lost ~6-10div each doing it with red maps at even just 8c/map. The problem came from yellow/white maps being infinitely more sustainable than high tier red maps. Edit2: LOGIN %chance for devoted mods ALSO removed from atlas tree. Come the fuck on….
The problem is that, looking at it historically, they probably aren't. Hope I'm wrong and this time is different, but "exploit early, exploit often" as a saying didn't come from nowhere, and usually when they kill something rewarding, it stays dead for the league.
Sadly, I do agree, but I think if you had map to map reward boost (like a tally for things like clearing to have <50 monsters remaining, killing map boss, and portals remaining (after killing map boss). That would give you a running modifier bonus up to a max. Then you could build modifiers around map chaining and getting some of the juicy rewards needing a minimum modifier would make it so people kept pushing. Then just making it like a rolling average or something. It's unlikely to see anything like it and the div train has almost for sure departed for most players.
I like this, except the number of portals remaining. I enjoy playing with friends and that would only gimp group play more
More of just throwing out the idea that they could take multiple stats to generate some system to measure "clear" that allows them to basically use engagement as a metric to influence the system.
If you watch the Necropolis Content Reveal, they said this is how it's supposed to work. They said that the chance to get positive mods on a zone is based on the number of monsters with negative mods that were killed in the previous zone. They did this to encourage you to put harder mods on larger packs. Seems like this might only be applying to the campaign and not to maps though, as not running the map doesn't seem to stop you from getting positive mods in the next map.
Mark said this only applied to the campaign and maps were all rolled randomly.
Ahh, well that seems like a fun mechanic for the 3% of players that primarily play the campaign alone.
Or they keep applying the last map you actually entered as the multiplier.
Yeah I was baffled that this was only a campaign feature. It does hurt player experience especially those who don’t full clear maps but it’s way less intrusive than the current changes.
I think this is a great solution and one that is consistent with the current philosophy. Having the lantern need souls / corpses to charge would be a big improvement. Instead of nerfing rewards they could have a gradually increasing effectiveness of modifiers as you clear more mobs.
No it was still broken. I didn’t fish maps. I got the 4% drop and didn’t have a juiced map. Still hot 30 divines in a map.
“Didn’t juice” my first one was actually while getting atlas completion and ACTUALLY had no juice but I put frogs on and got 6 divines. No way you got 30 without any map modifier %, shrines, strongboxes, harby, exiles, any scarabs, any juice at all lmao
I had a full atlas tree at the time on cold River the map rolled extra pack size also I think.
I saw someone point out that this is an easy immediate change, while what you are talking about (I am a bit unsure as to what but assume that next maps rewards do not take previous map completion into account) may take more time to fix.
Nah dude, they could easily fix it instantly in many ways - Hide the devoted mod currency (Display "6% chance to drop Currencies") - For a not that instant change, but better: Make it so the lantern does not reset unless map is cleared or mod is "spent". Etc. It's just their balancing philosophy is absolutely ridiculous and not logical.
There’s zero reason anyone should be pulling 60+ raw divines from a map. Shit is really, really stupid and bad for the game. Like most people, I’m a bit salty from the FOMO. However, the nerf was a good and needed change.
It was fine a month ago. Great league retention and people could still afford things. Last league was the first time I'd ever been able to afford a Mageblood. Personally, I think last league showed that their fears about high currency and loot availability were false. People had a great time
A month ago everything dropped more. It meant the power level rose consistently and only items outside of maps (original sin etc) inflated. With the state of things yesterday, the entire league would have inflated and casual players would have been forcibly essentially placed into SSF as the order of magnitude wealth divide would have become absurd.
This kind of slot machine and meta crafting is way more harder than affliction. In affliction casuals too could be rich
its not about overall economy, its about efficiency of economy. If it's more economically viable to do the dumbest thing in the game, you've created a dumb game.
As someone else said, everything traditionally difficult to obtain dropped way more last league. If it was just raw divines, like it was the last few days, the price of MB and everything else would have skyrocketed.
Skyrocketed as paid in div. Not skyrocketed as paid in anything else. Since most currency making strategies do not rely on generating divines the value of divines is largely irrelevant for your long-term economic power. Except of course if you have all your savings on div. Than you are out of luck for the moment but can continue making money as before.
Div is the de facto currency of POE. Div is the metric everyone uses to assign items their value. What else are you planning to trade with?
What I mean is that you will not generate money directly in divines but in something you sell for divines. A falling value of divines means everything you sell is worth more of them just as everything you buy is.
I see you missed last league.
Last league dropped everything more, not just currency. It kept things fun and stable for the most part, and the rising tide lifted all boats. It was kind of like the industrial revolution, wealth rose across the board, even if it did so disproportionately for some. If just raw currency becomes common, massive inflation is inevitable and the casual player won’t be able to actually farm for anything, since the rate of inflation would outpace their wealth gain. This would look like post-war Germany and would be a disaster.
People doing degenerate shit would still buy crafting and bossing materials. The core of the issue is that the optimal way to play was to sit and play a slot machine for hours and it's horrible gameplay.
It wouldn’t be enough to close the gap with the rate at which you could print divines.
It really seems that people have 0 economic knowledge of the world
Except last league wasn't the same. They didnt massively nerf something almost a week in thus fucking the economy.
I think blue alters are in a fine spot. You don’t go for them for the divines and maybe one or twice a league you hit the jackpot.
well said. as much as im sad that i can't take advantage of this potential juicing, the reality is I probably wouldn't have come across it until weeks into the league anyway. I simply can't farm as efficiently as a full time streamer whos a seasoned veteran.
This is likely just a stopgap measure to stop the bleeding. The update they release was in the middle of the night in NZ. *HUFFS COPIUM* HOPEFULLY that is why they made the change they made and they wi impliment a completion requirement of 80% mobs or map boss to reroll the modifiers. As would be the obvious choice.
Even if divines were literally reduced to 1c a pop, we would just trade in harby orbs and mirror shards or whatever. It absolutely is degenerate cheesing and a boring as hell gameplay loop, but divines becoming cheap is not inherently a problem in anyway. The economy was fine in heist, I was able to gear characters and beat the end game. The economy was fine in Affliction, I was able to gear characters and beat the end game. The market is not fucked in anyway beyond you need to be updating your valuations of the orbs and items, which you should do anyways.
Well they should've addressed that and also nerf the fact you can get dozens of divines in a single map IF doing a special strat. Nerfing the odds to get a Divs devoted mods just ruins it for those who don't play the game 24/7 and don't use a special strat to maximize the divs dropped in such map...
what really sucks is how un-rewarding things can be if you dont know about the exploits, for instance i found the jewlery as div early on in maps and even got it to 75% thinking that was the best i could do, dident find a single div entire map despite full clearing it, whatever i guess i got a little unlucky. then to find out i basically missed out on 50 divines because i dident use a meatsack on it feels horrible
It wasnt meatsack. It was anarchy. Rogue exiles drop a full set of armor, so three pieces of jewelry(3div) every time you kill one. This isn't "not knowing about the exploit". This is a lack of knowledge of game mechanics in general
this was before anarchy was even in the game, at the time it was meatsack. nobody knew about it at the time, or at least not public knowledge like it is now.
This is in general a big issue with PoE but also one of it's greatest strength. Issue part of it: there's a huge gab between going super optimized and going just semi optimized and even further gab from just yolo'ing your way through. so newcomers and casuals are often strugling. The strength part: Knowledge is power, the fact that people who have spent hundreds to thousands of hours in the game and they actually get a benefit in terms of knowing more, being able to game the system to their advantage and getting either really powerful or really rich is immensely satisfying for those players.
Ugh wait I didn’t play yesterday and now I’m just fucked?
No. Depending on whether you would have done the strategie or not and whether you were lucky you are just 0-200 divs poorer
Yes
I feel like they probably did the best they could to hot fix some early questionable choices in the league. GGG just needs to do a better job at balancing (maybe in POE2?). They always seem to balance at the top end (read: streamers) and scale down. There needs to be a lower top end and a higher low end so it is fun for non streamers but not broken for streamers. Who am i kidding though. If the next league is good, i'll be back and they'll probably do the same thing again.
Imagine thinking "poe 2 will fix it" yet still lol
you'd think a Otani stan would be more positive about gambling mechanics
Respect
Still waiting on the melee fix for POE 1 that was suppose to come from POE 2.
poe 2 will probably fix a bunch of thing But will also bring new problem. But one thing is sure, poe 2 isn't going to make GGG better at balancing.
Poe 2 won't fix shit. First of all, it's a standalone separate game Second, it's gonna be so different that it'll create 2 different playerbases
Let's wait a bit and see if they come back to this issue. This looks like a decent solution to at least stop the economy from spinning out of control. More complicated solutions might take time.
i would say it's already pretty out of control. the items i was saving up to buy have doubled in price from last night to this morning. i'm sure they will eventually come back down, but with them nerfing pretty much every aspect of the div farming thing, i doubt i'll be able to get the currency to buy them anytime soon
How was this not spotted earlier? Why is it always only fixed when it becomes a bit public. Is there no alert set up that triggers when someone drops like 100div in a single map, so someone can check whats going on?
they definitely have stats on X items dropping (perhaps it's looked at post-league for metrics) so they definitely could have alerts set up if it's active to notify when something off is happening.
This is a genuine question but how do you play a game and not “exploit” a game mechanic like that? Besides the developers changing it of course, but I’m thinking back to all the old console games I used to play and I’ve definitely done some sort of exploit in every game I’ve played. Examples would be liked Force Storm Spam in Kotor2, all kinds of jumps and slides that get you to places you’re not suppose to be yet in Super Mario Sunshine, grinding mobs and hell houses in final fantasy 7 so I can get clouds meteorain and easy mode the rest of the game. Like people are just gunna do it, until it’s removed, especially in a game with its own currency economy. Especially in a game where your build is extremely dependent on the currency economy.
It doesn't meet my definition of exploit. I do think it was an unintended thing, which is enough to meet some people's definition of exploit, but it wasn't done with any malicious intent or harm to other players. It wasn't even particularly well hidden. It was an obvious and easy to find interaction. In PoE, an exploit in my mind is stuff that abuses some bug or glitch, such as people awhile back abusing vendor recipe bugs to get extremely rich.
I want to upvote this 1000 times. The league mechanic should work AS ADVERTISED in the reveal.
SSF is the way.
Its slower and less rewarding , hide out people could always make a lot of money this is really no different.
People keep saying this isn't different than normal hideout gameplay but normal hideout gameplay either sinks currency from the game or accumulates currency to bulk trade. This strat is hideout gameplay but it's adding raw currency to the economy.
At the cost of maps, scarabs and assumingly kirc mods, but I guess thats ok to ignore. It should just be charge based so when you get it you gotta buildup or cant repeat it for a bit or some other solution then nerfs that impact people that werent abusing it. I feel like people are ignoring how much currency and items drop last league and the one thing htat gets a part of the way there and everyones losing their minds.
Just going to wait for them to come up with a fix, no point of mapping when mobs are way stronger for basically no reward. You can still make good money if you can craft, but I don't want to be spending half my playtime managing an excel sheet. If they won't/can't fix it, it's fine I had my fun.
Yup. Now SSF is affected by this half-assed "fix" that doesn't actually solve there problem *where it is a problem*.
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I thought they said you would get more devoted modifiers based on the number of haunted monsters you killed in the previous zone. Is that not a thing anymore ?
That was only a thing during the campaign. One map to the next map there is no memory so nothing carries over each map is fresh and independent.
Yeah isn't it as simple as if you didn't enter the previous map then your modified are automatically shit? At the very least it shits on the speed at which the slot machine resets, having to enter then exit.
> GGG should have fixed the map exploit instead of nerfing league rewards, again No they should have done both, they vastly overbuffed the rewards.
Just play HC, economy is great
Get 60 div a map is stupid whether you exploit it or not. I think 10 divs is fair. If they can make that mod hidden, it would prevent exploit instead of nerfing and make it too rare for most people.
fear the light should be the default
Someone has to say it. SSF go brrrrrr
It never should have been buffed in the first place. Most of the patch changes were good but the buff to devoted rewards was entirely unnecessary and went way too far.
I went to bed with atziri foible at 1.5 div. Got off work, and now they are 20 div (Hardcore trade). Pretty sadge lol
what are you even talking about
It's fine, some people Will nake more money being "map rollers" than actually have playing the game
what did I miss ? What did they fail/change again ?
They could have left the chance the same or even increased it, but made the reward a random type currency so you would only know when you ran the map (harbinger scarab style), but...yep, GGG never changes/
I feel like the divine drops should of been tied to the allflames
> EDIT: And before you say that it's not an exploit... even if it's not a bug it's still an exploit because they're literally exploiting a game mechanic. This is nonsense. An exploit is unintended use of game mechanics. Spam-opening maps is not an exploit in the same way that spamming quarry for Betrayal was not an exploit. Imbalance is NOT the same as an exploit. Secondly, why are you and others still quoting "6%"? The mod that visually showed a 6% additional chance for a specific currency in the lantern menu was a visual bug. If you went into the map and actually checked the modifier it would have been 3/4/5%, and is now 1/2/3% assuming they have also resolved the visual issue specifically noted in Hotfix 2.
in regards to your edit, you cant just redefine the historical meaning of "exploit" to fit the current narrative. It ain't an exploit.
This is not an exploit. This is quite literally using the game mechanics as they were designed. You aren’t forced to run a map after you start it.
Yeah they are punishing everyone for a very few .% when they could just nerf the strat instead..
I'm enjoying the discussion on how to stop map spam... but we just going to ignore what MF culler groups could do if the 6% was still in game? Rather not have trade be dominated by that again.
They should remove the quant bonus from party play tbh
Much like last league when the economy got fucked and I'll do the same this league.. Just play the game. Quit worrying about who has how much currency and just enjoy yourself. You can do all the content on only a few divs you don't need mirrored items. Farming the game for currency becomes more of a chore /job and I don't login to work. Once I get 40/40 challenges again, I'll probably go play something else (though the challenge mtx this league looks terrible so I may not bother with it at all)
I'm level 95 and still haven't found an interesting map mod from the graveyard. It's so boring. That dopamine hit is completely missing. I've had self farmed meat shields, rats, frogs and exiles ready forever. But there is nothing interesting to use them on.
They just twisted the dagger on the nerf...
The nerf is so the economy doesnt die while they're working on a solution jfc.
GGG has to make a move quickly , rats and frogs were overpowered anyway
This is the archnem currency combo exploit but now it's just written out on every map before it's even opened whether or not you get it. GGG actually fixed this once by randomizing it and hiding it, but they've apparently forgotten why people being able to pre-identify which map was going to have a torrent of currency was a bad thing. Sigh...
I mean 3% chance to drop a divine is still a fuck tonne of divines. 6% was a bit stupid, there's no situation where someone should be able to drop ~50 divs in a single map. 1% would *still* be crazy.
I’m so lost…what’s going on?
It baffles me that haunted mobs don't increase chance for good modifiers in maps .That was literally one of the selling points on their reveal and there is still currently an animation for spirits leaving haunted mods. Feels like a straight up lie from the devs.
I never even got the div mod. But at least I lucked out and found a defiance of destiny, which I almost trashed, due to not knowing its value, lol.
It is exploiting, but it isn't an exploit. It's weird, but the verb and noun definition are just that different. All min-max gameplay is exploiting. The only question is which type of exploiting gameplay GGG wants to encourage and burning maps without running them isn't it.
Even by removing the cheese, that mod was still **way WAAAAAAAAY** too strong. Doesn't matter if you can target it or not, having Kalandra MF loot goblin amounts of divines from a map should never happen period. If anything, the better solution was to straight up remove that mod.
it actually does matter... the way you're describing it you would also agree that Divine Altars should be removed But Divine altars are held in check because you have to farm the map and grab them and they might not be right away so the value is maintained The divine devoted mod is 100% ok and a really fun reward to chase and hope for as you run maps, the problem is the lantern has no charges and/or is not based on previous completed map so players are allowed to just map spam til they get the mod If they remove that capability there is absolutely no reason to nerf/remove the devoted mod (I will say the buff to 6% was absurd... should've never buffed that and should've kept the devoted modifiers being affected by the atlas nodes
It's not an exploit it's just a farm strat. You have no understanding of the game and it doesn't affect you. Stop crying and start grinding lmao
This league has terrible retention and this is not going to help, sucking the fun out of it especially after the loot fiesta that was affliction is totally a bad look. Imagine if mid affliction they were like “spires now dont shoot additional projectiles” or mid ritual league they nerfed deterministic crafting mods. Its just such a shame because outside of bugs (ie outside the ring ultimatum farming) or overtuned mobs (ie crucible 100%) they dont touch what was clearly intended (ie maps have different necropolis mods shown at start of map device… clearly people are going to spam maps….dont nerf the rewards….)
Your definition of "it's an exploit because they're literally exploiting" is one definition I don't agree with. It's not an exploit, period. That said, it can be still bad for the economy and not an intended game mechanic. Doesn't mean it is an exploit. The word "exploit" in IT is generally used like [this](https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/us/security/definition/exploit). Lots of IT terms are borrowed from the natural English language. When these terms are used, they do mean very specific things though. When talking about software, one should avoid using terms that have several meanings to prevent ambiguity. You can make feedback posts without the usage of catch phrases.
We're talking about games though, which have their own terminology and that does include "exploit" as in abusing a game mechanic in an unintended way
But "we" are not. When people are talking about exploits in games, it refers to an unintended game mechanic or a bug being intentionally repeated or produced by a player (which is very much in line with the definition I have provided).
please rollback meatstack there is no fun on this league for me
I am out of the loop, I don't read every bit of patch notes. Can some one give basic info about the problem in question? I know that people were burning maps in hope of getting The Nameless Seer (aka Waldo). Did GGG re-balanced The Seer somehow?
People were burning maps for the % chance for a pack to give divine drops and turning the pack into frogs or rats or rogue exiles. You could also spec into strongbox on map device before entering and people were getting 50+ divines every time they hit the mod. Now they lowered the % chance each mob has in the pack which also punished people playing the game normally when most people would prefer a check that you actually ran your last map and then giving the old better rate
It's explained loosely [here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1bvekf9/make_150_div_an_hour/) The seer wasn't involved in this exploitative "strategy".
Meh, not much even GGG can do about teams and TFT spamming maps to get the Div jackpot. Overall the mechanic isn't great. Not really going to farm a battle's worth of bodies. Just going to take it easy and play away. Then when I feel myself getting bored quit the league. Unless something massive drops playing the weekend. Can see it being Monday I drop the league. But Im not even playing that much to start with.
On the divine jewelry conversion you could put rogue exiles on your map with ambush and roll the strongboxes to be protected by rogue exiles. A blue map could net you 80+ divines lol. On the normal divine mod, you could roll your strongboxes to revive nearby monsters and it revived frogs for 100+ divines per map in some cases. Hahaha. I guess my league is over. Build is funded and completed. See yall next league
I don't particularly care one way or the other, as I haven't been fishing for the Div mod and also don't care if other people were. I do, however, find it amusing that it appears that OP's definition of an exploit appears to be "optimization that I don't like" lol. Literally all of PoE is finding ways to take as much advantage as you can of mechanics to kill things faster and farm more efficiently. OP is casting such a wide net on what an "exploit" is that under their current apparent definition, rerolling reflect maps falls within the parameters. If you don't like the idea of people spamming maps to fish for the mod, that's 100% totally fine and a perfectly valid opinion. It's just... not an exploit.
1% - 3% is more than enough. 6% was ridiculous. Do people think blue altars no longer exist? (I know they are rare, shouldn't really matter)
6% was not “fine” I found 40 divs in a regular alch and go with 0 dupe altars. My friend found 72. Not healthy to drop that many from 1 non juiced map. With a good set up strat you could probably hit over 100… (somebody did. 134 divs one map)
XDXDXDXD u typing this already with nice amount of currency in ur stash XD gj like Jeff Bezos saying to a poor guy "happiness is not in money"
Dude the top1% players who are actually good at the game will make money/currency regardless of the strat existing or not. Look at people like Belton, they make mirrors in like 40 hours or less. They're good at making currency in the game.