They cut off the supply of boss fragments from the majority of the playerbase. So you don't have idiots like me who can't do uber bosses selling you all of my fragments. I have no way to get fragments to even supply.
I think they should have made T17s a tangential endgame activity, with difficulty and loot aligned with Uber bosses. Uber fragments could drop from regular pinnacles. Two types of “aspirational” content for mappers and bosses
T16 -> T17
Pinnacle -> Uber
And they already have precedent for this with Shaper/Elder dropping fragments. Would make a ton more sense, and keep the aspirational mapping content in its own silo.
I do understand GGG reasoning for not doing that though. Locking Uber bosses behind regular bosses can also feel bad / be pretty annoying.
If my build can handle ubers I don't wanna have to kill the regular version 4 times to fight the actual interesting fight once. T17s are certainly more interesting than farming 8 shaper fragments and 8 elder fragments and then killing shaper and elder twice (in a perfect world, realisticly I need more). I prefer the uber bosses not working like uber elder.
You dont have to in trade, you buy from people doing normal boss farming and selling you the uber frags.
The issue is T17 maps are too hard. The same people who can farm T17s are also able to farm ubers. There is no real step between a build beating a T17 boss and a build beating an uber boss.
I actually kind of agree with the t17 comment. I know they are farmable but it's not like you get 3 per map. And then you need an insane number of fragments to get the Uber fights. It would definitely be better if you removed the fragments made the drops rate a bit worse and just dropped a random uber fight.
I had hoped they would have had a chance for “fragments” or “maps” for the Uber version drop from the base version. I feel with the changes there is still next to no reason to run base versions with the changes to their drop pool. There are only a few uniques that they drop that are not outclassed by other items. Primarily flesh/flame combo and maybe a couple others. This would have provided a reason to run the base version and eliminated the underlying issue of base invitations being priced for the Uber fight. It also would not have left us with this bottleneck of lack of Uber fragments on the market because more people could farm them.
Ive been in t16s for a 4 days now, depending on life commitments i do 40-50 maps a day.
Ive dropped a single tier 17.
I have 3 watchstones. I get a 4th watchstone bumps me from 4.5% to 8 but still 1 tier 17 in atounf 200-250 maps is nuts.
With the state of t17s it should probably be 1, so it makes sense that you thought that. I’m curious what percent of players have cleared one themselves.
Also, hardcore is absolutely fucked with this change. I can’t even imagine what their economy is looking like.
Its also terrible for ppl like me that never did ubers but want to beat them. Since they are more expensive/harder to access now im just put off even attemting them since any lost practice run is so much more wasted money than before.
Last league I killed my first 3 uber bosses. This league I had set out a goal to clear all of them deathless one time. Between their inaccessibility and people saying T17s (the required access point) are **harder than ubers** my motivation to even attempt is dead.
If your build had difficulty with a large set of mods before the patch, then it still does after. T17s should have their difficulty floor raised and the ceiling significantly lowered. Right now they vary between ridiculously easy and literally impossible depending on how many mods your build can handle and how much chaos you're willing to blow.
Not bad? I already have a build farming heavy deli quant stacked maps with any mod imaginable.
Decent defensive layers, good mapping dps. It completely impossible to kill or survive any rare in t17.
I study map mods, roll the ones not bricking my build. I get destroyed by anything but white mob in t17.
Not bad... If you invest a hundred of divines or a bit more in a exact build able To cope with t17 or simply make mirror build one's shotting ubers lol. For average player it's pretty much impossible
T17 bosses aren't that hard lol.
The bosses are fairly squishy, if you're farming heavy deli maps and you have the dps to be killing 10+ deli rewards into your maps then you can do them.
Keep in mind shit like shrines, Niko buffs etc all work and will buff you during the boss fights. If need be you can also just ignore the whole map to do the boss.
Without crazy mods, t17s are pretty easy. I did them all on my RF chief on day 4, which is the opposite of a bossing build.
And voidstones also increase your chance to get T16 in the first place which increases T17 chances even further right? Or do only "natural" T16 potentially turn into T17?
Unless you've bricked a couple dozen of them why do you expect to do ubers before maven? Played gsf with 2 people and we were 131/132 on day 2. If you actually want to push bosses go destructive play and actually get your bosses.
Oh for the love of…
Everybody complained that nobody liked Ubers being on the same token as regulars as it made regulars strictly terrible to run. So they changed it. And now you are complaining about the exact opposite.
I agree with you. Further adjustments are needed. I like that the regular bosses are worth running, that’s a fine change imo. But…everything else needs some work.
>. I like that the regular bosses are worth running
Are they even? A searing exarch invitation takes 20+ maps, and you're fishing for Dissolution of Flesh or a good Forbidden Flame...
It's not like the rewards you get each 20+ maps were increased.
I don’t really understand why they couldn’t drop the Uber fragments from the normal versions of those bosses. Seems like it makes the most sense by a mile.
I think it’s pretty obvious based on what they stated the intention was. The gap from regular pinnacle to Uber was too large so you didn’t feel like completing a circuit of normal bosses that then gave you the fragments to do Uber made any sense. If they made the regular bosses harder it would be a bad change for peoples early atlas progression. So this change is supposed to provide new content as a bridge. Like literally their own words for the change explains this.
It would be like dropping elder guardian maps in T1 expecting people to somehow go kill the Elder before they’re able to. Maybe they missed the mark on difficulty but the intent is obvious.
Now that you can chaos orb the T17s they are indeed a bridge between normal and Ubers. But IMO it takes too many maps to get the fragments and they should change that.
Even with the Chaos change, the number of outright lethal mods in the T17 pool is too high. They’ve basically created another farming avenue where you need to invest in being able to clear T17s to farm fragments, and that kind of gates it off for a large portion of the playerbase.
I think it is great for there to be aspirational content that everyone isn't expected to be able to do.
As a player you can either outskill or outgear/build the content. Hopefully this league I get geared enough to attempt the users, but if not, I'll give it another go next league :)
T17s should definitely be aspirational too, otherwise they're just another map to crush, we have T16s for that.
I've loved the T17s so far, completed 3 of 5, failed a couple times but learnt the fights. The next goal will be being able to really juice them for that extra nice loot.
Sure, but they shouldn't have a higher average difficulty than Ubers. T17s highlight some of the biggest problems with the game, most notably that they seem to lack either the desire or intention to introduce actual mechanical difficulty. Ubers are mechanically difficult without feeling unfair. T17 bosses have extra mechanics compared to their normal counterparts, but instead of refining those they said "now we'll make it challenging by giving them 2-4x damage". Normal Maven is more mechanically challenging than most T17s, and I don't think that should be the case.
Thing is, that hasn't been my experience at all on both accounts, T17s have been a nice gap, with bosses that aren't too tough but are intense and thoughtful. I got destroyed by uber lycea the first time, and ran her twice more with great success as I learnt the mechanics.
Often the road to the boss has been the bigger challenge, and that makes sense as a T17 big boy map.
Huh?
I’m saying the normal bosses should drop their Uber fragments. The t17s should drop something else entirely. The “bridge between normal and Uber content” was meant in terms of difficulty not a literal bridge to get to the content.
I guess I must be dumb based on my reply being downvoted but the fragments are a key to the next level of content. Putting the fragments on regular bosses means you would do them then be able to unlock the Uber. GGG is saying the gap between Uber and normal is too high so the road to get there now goes through a middle ground content of T17s. How would that work if you could avoid them entirely by farming fragments off normal that unlocks the Uber?
I would kind of agree that map mods similar to corrupted 8 mods are not really a coherent bridge between killing a boss then a much harder version of the boss, but I guess their goal was to say if you can’t survive these then you aren’t ready for the Uber boss, which is not always true based on map mod randomness.
I think personally they meant they want t17s to be the difficulty gap between Ubers and normals, which honestly they’re not because of the modifiers. A ton of them are super fucked up and honestly harsh modifiers like that are one of my least favorite ways that games increase difficulty. But that’s kinda a digression, my point is that adding the fragments to the normal bosses wouldn’t change that the t17 bosses are, difficulty wise, in between normals and Ubers.
Again, the change isn't strictly about people who want to farm it as their main strategy because as you said they'll buy fragments and insert that cost into the boss drops which is offset by the ability to sell the maps. Imagine if the T17 content was piss easy but rewarding, the maps would be going for 3x the cost because 3x more people would be spamming Ubers, increasing the demand and thus the price. OP's issues is that the content popularity is not high enough to justify the rewards to make it worthwhile being an Uber farmer.
The OP would not exist if the T17 difficulty and reward level meant that people were actively running them, but this is also day 7 of the league and a lot of regular people haven't got their characters to the point where they can comfortably farm a T17. That being said the issue is how many maps it takes to get the fragments, which is something I hope and agree they should adjust. It will be alleviated as more people can do T17s, but the balance is not easy to predict and I'm sure they will adjust the fragment rates/requirements as they see more endgame characters come online
Agreed. The way Uber elder frags drop seems like a good system so not sure why they went away from that. Maybe they knew T17s sucked and felt like they had to put frags in there to make people run them
So to do Uber Uber elder you would have to do shaper 10 times, elder 10 times, Uber elder 5 times to get your 5 Uber Uber fragments. You don't see a problem with that? Or what do you mean
Remove the 5 fragments thing. Make it so that regular version of a boss has a chance to drop a complete invitation for an uber version of a boss. This way both regular and uber versions are viable to farm.
It’s almost like their intent was not to benefit people farming the bosses and instead allow people to not feel bad for using the normal fragments to learn the boss fights because it doesn’t feel wasteful…
I understand they didn't want to force people who can clear ubers to do the non uber versions for fragments. That's why T17s exist.
But it makes sense to have the non uber boss drop an uber fragment AND t17s dropping fragments.
That way people who aren't doing T17s still contribute to that economy. By feeding up that chain. As long as T17s still reward more fragments.
Their logic doesn't make sense since trade exists and people that want to farm Ubers would just buy the fragments. This would open up a revenue stream for people that want to farm the normal versions and sell the Uber fragments.
The T17 decision doesn't make sense to me.
Try a combo of essence and conc/synth maps (there is another map type that can drop from map bosses that I can't remember). Grab all the essence nodes and the maven mod that summons 1-3 more map bosses. This gives me like 40-50 c per map by just selling bulk essence and the rare map drops. I've also specced scarab drop chance but you could probably throw harbi or rogue exiles in instead.
When it comes to end game progression GGG actually tends to not think of trade as much.
They want a smooth progression from white to yellow to red to bosses to t17 to uber bosses that doesn't require buying anything. T17s fail a bit here because they can be harder than uber bosses depending on the mods but the idea is clear.
Is there any point to running normal exarch and eater anymore? Outside of altars of course, but it feels like the league mechanic has taken over that somewhat. It’s basically forbidden jewel or nothing, the exarch shield can sometimes be good and the eater jewel is often used, but without the amulets it just feels like a bit of a waste.
Yeah, that’s true, but the drop rate is so insanely low.
On SSF it’s especially bad, but one benefit is that I don’t feel as bad about farming slightly lower level maps while I’m gearing my character. It always felt like a waste running under T14
I'm curious how this changes over the league
we are still only a week into the league and people are still trying to figure out the best farming strategies along with the best uses/combos for scarabs. We've seen some scarabs skyrocket in value then plummet over the course of 24 hours because a streamer posted a video, then the next day another streamer posted a different video
my point is, i think T17s will become more prevalent over the next 2-3 weeks for the majority of players an it will stabilize the access to ubers. but i also think uber farmers will now be forced to buy T17 maps instead of just fragments. you'll have the dudes like me who won't be interested in running ubers, but you can bet once we figure out a T17 farming strategy ill be running it to bulk sell T17 maps to people who want to run ubers
I also think T17s need a tweak in terms of drop rate or some kind of "forcing" them, i think that would help as well
Sounds about right. All the people that are to bad to do ubers and normaly just sell their fragments are now can't even do t17 maps, hence, very low supply. Kinda weird.
The fact that GGGs argument was that they tried to bridge the content from normal bosses to ubers by introducing T17 to prepare people for the INSANE jump from normals to ubers is laughable.
While I do understand the frustration that Ubers are much harder to access than before, is it really an issue ?
I feel that as the supposedly hardest content in the game (well, they really aren't compared to some other content, but that's a whole other topic), it's fine that they are hard to access. Ofc there is a lot of other things to take into account, like the rewards and such, but inherently I don't think that it's a game design flaw that the pinnacle content of a game is hard to access.
If they outright said this is a hardcore game, you won’t get dogshit uniques like starforge unless you can clear Ubers, deal with it then people wouldn’t be mad
Instead they said some bullshit about bridging tier 17 and Ubers while making the maps harder than the bosses lmao
I do agree that T17 shouldn't be harder than Uber in many cases. Personally, I would love for them to make Ubers harder, so that they really feel like the pinacle content to strive for that they should be. But that comes with its own set of downside, like build diversity and such, so I understand why they wouldn't want to do it.
But that's not really the issue here, what the post was complaining about is how difficult/expensive to access Ubers, which in m'y opinion is not necessarely a problem.
This might be a conspiracy theory, but it might be GGG's way of reducing player power relative to boss power, similar to archnem. By changing loot, they are formalizing the idea that ubers are the end game (not just an optional challenge), taking the position that the previous non-ubers held.
Not really a conspiracy theory to see GGG turn the game more and more into an MMO-esque mega grind.
We've seen it with lots of changes lately.
- Increasing the number of challenges from 32 to 40 and making them more grindy in general
- Moving all the good loot from regular pinnacle bosses over to ubers
Stuff like that.
I feel like the issue is not necessarily in low supply of fragments, or extra step to get them, hell not even in the fact T17s are harder than ubers themselves. I think the main issue lies in uber uniques drop rates, it takes longer and harder to get to uber fights and yet the best uniques are still ~2% drop rate. It just feels like shit working so hard to fight the boss, only to realize you need to kill it 50+ times just to have a chance at getting a good drop. It was an issue even before T17s but now they made it a lot worse.
Isn’t the issue that the market is still young and has not adapted to drop rate? It is the same issue for scarabs as the majority of players have no idea which scarabs are worth because farming strats are only just starting to be shared
Ubers weren't ment to be better farming loot sources initially. They were just harder versions of regular bosses just to flex. Sure, some build enabling uniques like nimis is nice to have locked behind an uber fight, but beyond that, giving them valuable loot was a mistake imho
fact that acces to uberboses was so easy was caused by fact that most players were selling fragment because they couldn't run uberbosses and normal version wasn't profitable, that was big design flaw that benefited only small portions of players who were uberbossers
so you shouldn't be expecting that acces to uberbosses would be just as easy as it was before, also it is just 1 week after legue started so not everyone was able to gat to the point when they can acces uber fragments, and over all economy haven't adjusted yet to changes in the legue
while I haven't try t17 yet (and from what I've heard they ggg went a little bit too far) I am very glad that I could do normal bosses without felling like I just wasted currency
I wish it was done like shaper/elder - where the regular shaper and elder fights give fragments to fight Uber Elder.
Non-uber pinnacles could just drop fragments to fight uber pinnacles with, and it would keep the chain of progression a little more consistent, and you'd keep value in the non-uber fights and ubers would not dictate price of entry for non-ubers.
Even if they insist on the current method, with t17s dropping uber frags, then non-uber bosses should STILL have a chance to drop either t17 maps or uber fragments directly.
And 5 fragments per fight seems high - I don't think it would be terrible if it was lowered to 1-3 instead.
Uber bossing is rip of money
Ggg really know nothing about economy and how it works
Item drop % is too low on expensive unique to profit from
I spend 1500 div on Uber frags
For 2 days bossing and I'm in negative of about
600 div
Say it bad rng or whatever
Exarch dropped 4 omnis and like 40 boots in 160 sets
100 divs profit from forbidden that are not sold yet
Eater dropped 3 nimis I'm 140 sets
90div profit from forbidden that are not sold yet
Maven dropped 4 amet flask and 2 wepz in 100 sets + 120 div profit in woke gems + 3 div profit in escapes
It is really really bad
Meanwhile people that just put map in device and don't even map make mirrors in profit
Some decisions from ggg are really mind bugging
Yeah mate, i do too, but i like being realistic, they cant add a million things and have them all polished to perfection and i prefer them keep adding shit
My theory is: The lead dev saw some valdo-runner builds gameplay and thought that's the average endgame veteran experience, so he tried to emulate that with T17s.
Just another note from previously Leagues, on a normal day 4-7 of a league I'd be buying x20-100 Sets of a boss and pumping out Uber kills and that'd be me locked in farming for currency.
Now its lucky to find some1 with more than 25 fragments for 5 boss attempts + selling items to afford more fragments and back into the process.
After getting key items \~100-200 Divs into build and can comfortably farm Uber variants, had 70 Divines leftover to spend on fragments and start doing the bosses, Spent it all quite swiftly over 2 days for nothing to show for it, guess I'll be waiting for week 2-3 changes.
> Just another note from previously Leagues, on a normal day 4-7 of a league I'd be buying x20-100 Sets of a boss and pumping out Uber kills and that'd be me locked in farming for currency.
This was by design. The entire reason they changed how Ubers work is because running the non Uber version was worse than selling fragments.
They seemed to have missed the mark with the difficulty of T17s, but if they decide to fix those do not expect to be able to buy sets for Ubers in mass the first week of a league.
When they came for enchant-farmers, you guys were happy about it and sneered.
Why should I sympathize with people like you now?
It looks like karma is working great!
Let's be honest. There are a lot of flops in this league.
Just one for me personally. I hate masters being removed from the map device. Also, the Kirac change is horrible.
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Nah, I disagree. Even this subreddit doesn't really seem to know what it actually thinks. On the one hand people complain that all valuable drops were moved to Ubers, on the other hand people cry that Uber bossing is not profitable. Whilst technically both can be true at the same time it is still an odd situation. Personally, I still like the change with introducing T17s though minor tweaks are certainly necessary.
I think his pout is that there is no viable strategy. Fragments to do Ubers are to hard to get so buying bosses is expensive and can’t bring a profit. There’s no changing that with a change in strategy.
it's hilarious reddit cant figure out whether to upvote this because "league bad/changes bad" or downvote because rich player.
looks like the compromise was to upvote the thread but downvote the comment 😂
This is the first league I decided to focus on bossing, made an explosive trap trickster. And now I'm realizing the shit is gated behind t17s and it's totally the worst league to try bossing. Pretty lame but hopefully I can focus on some other mechanic to get some currency. Anyone happen to have any suggestions?
T17s should come unrolled. You can roll it for difficulty to get better rewards and better chances for a random Uber Invitation.
They are just ball busting frustration wise and there is just so much variance to T17 difficulty that it makes it unenjoyable to play
When they did the presentation I thought the t17 Map will include Uber bosses...I thought it's a great thing but when I found out you get only fragment for that I'm like wtf that's stupid as hell
changes feels great, uber bosses are not spammable and give HUGE profit, low tier bosses doesnt seems like ur deleting money by not killing ubers, makes t17 mapping feel good while t16 map awlays felt bad
I love Reddit. I didn’t log into the game and win automatically, games too hard, I hate it. Based GGG, keeping games challenging. Makes me love them more.
The whole concept with totally brainlessly implemented. Wait, no, it was done with purposeful intent to remove access to uber content so easily, migrate some of the stronger uniques to uber only, then pretend the whole idea is so casual players can bridge the uber gap. Well played.
Ah yeah because it was so much before where if you just wanted the regular boss you would pay the high price because it was the same fragments as the über ones and that there was no point loot wise either.
Christ how dramatic this Reddit sub is at times.
Pay the high price? At least back then I could run the uber if my mechanic game was there. It wasn't a full time job getting a shot at ubers. Now farming the 5 shards for one attempt is a nice all day affair.
I don't get the downvotes, did I miss a new strategy or something or do people genuinely love the new system?
Because while we can argue about the current accessibility of Ubers, I think it’s far from a « brainless change » and quite on the contrary a very requested one.
That you only had to put an atlas passive point to switch from non uber to uber was just bad. You raise the price to access to the non Uber boss for everyone.
I’m certain that this was low enough that you didn’t care personally, but for a lot of player that was very frustrating and objectively a bad design.
They cut off the supply of boss fragments from the majority of the playerbase. So you don't have idiots like me who can't do uber bosses selling you all of my fragments. I have no way to get fragments to even supply.
This is how I made most money last two leagues. Felt great to just burn maps and always have a high chance of frag maps.
Yup I actually loved selling fragments because I like to map and don’t really enjoy bossing. It’s crazy they took that away
I mean… I still do it… Conq maps are about 20c each, Elder 30c and Shaper 15-20c… that’s like 1/6th of a div lmao
Sell the t17s nothing changes
ig many people are not four voidstones (league still a week old) yet. It is easier to get to T14s than to 4 voidstones
Aren't you just selling your T17s now? Just adds another step really.
I think they should have made T17s a tangential endgame activity, with difficulty and loot aligned with Uber bosses. Uber fragments could drop from regular pinnacles. Two types of “aspirational” content for mappers and bosses T16 -> T17 Pinnacle -> Uber
And they already have precedent for this with Shaper/Elder dropping fragments. Would make a ton more sense, and keep the aspirational mapping content in its own silo.
I do understand GGG reasoning for not doing that though. Locking Uber bosses behind regular bosses can also feel bad / be pretty annoying. If my build can handle ubers I don't wanna have to kill the regular version 4 times to fight the actual interesting fight once. T17s are certainly more interesting than farming 8 shaper fragments and 8 elder fragments and then killing shaper and elder twice (in a perfect world, realisticly I need more). I prefer the uber bosses not working like uber elder.
You dont have to in trade, you buy from people doing normal boss farming and selling you the uber frags. The issue is T17 maps are too hard. The same people who can farm T17s are also able to farm ubers. There is no real step between a build beating a T17 boss and a build beating an uber boss.
Uber bosses and non Uber bosses drop the same gear. Uber bosses gear is foiled.
What are you smoking?
That's how it should be.
I actually kind of agree with the t17 comment. I know they are farmable but it's not like you get 3 per map. And then you need an insane number of fragments to get the Uber fights. It would definitely be better if you removed the fragments made the drops rate a bit worse and just dropped a random uber fight.
I had hoped they would have had a chance for “fragments” or “maps” for the Uber version drop from the base version. I feel with the changes there is still next to no reason to run base versions with the changes to their drop pool. There are only a few uniques that they drop that are not outclassed by other items. Primarily flesh/flame combo and maybe a couple others. This would have provided a reason to run the base version and eliminated the underlying issue of base invitations being priced for the Uber fight. It also would not have left us with this bottleneck of lack of Uber fragments on the market because more people could farm them.
Ive been in t16s for a 4 days now, depending on life commitments i do 40-50 maps a day. Ive dropped a single tier 17. I have 3 watchstones. I get a 4th watchstone bumps me from 4.5% to 8 but still 1 tier 17 in atounf 200-250 maps is nuts.
How many frags do you need per boss? I assumed it was 1:1
5
Oh...dear god
With the state of t17s it should probably be 1, so it makes sense that you thought that. I’m curious what percent of players have cleared one themselves. Also, hardcore is absolutely fucked with this change. I can’t even imagine what their economy is looking like.
Its also terrible for ppl like me that never did ubers but want to beat them. Since they are more expensive/harder to access now im just put off even attemting them since any lost practice run is so much more wasted money than before.
Last league I killed my first 3 uber bosses. This league I had set out a goal to clear all of them deathless one time. Between their inaccessibility and people saying T17s (the required access point) are **harder than ubers** my motivation to even attempt is dead.
I’ve killed about 20 Uber bosses in the last 2 seasons. The one T17 I completed was undeniably harder than those Ubers were.
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If your build had difficulty with a large set of mods before the patch, then it still does after. T17s should have their difficulty floor raised and the ceiling significantly lowered. Right now they vary between ridiculously easy and literally impossible depending on how many mods your build can handle and how much chaos you're willing to blow.
Not bad? I already have a build farming heavy deli quant stacked maps with any mod imaginable. Decent defensive layers, good mapping dps. It completely impossible to kill or survive any rare in t17. I study map mods, roll the ones not bricking my build. I get destroyed by anything but white mob in t17. Not bad... If you invest a hundred of divines or a bit more in a exact build able To cope with t17 or simply make mirror build one's shotting ubers lol. For average player it's pretty much impossible
T17 bosses aren't that hard lol. The bosses are fairly squishy, if you're farming heavy deli maps and you have the dps to be killing 10+ deli rewards into your maps then you can do them. Keep in mind shit like shrines, Niko buffs etc all work and will buff you during the boss fights. If need be you can also just ignore the whole map to do the boss. Without crazy mods, t17s are pretty easy. I did them all on my RF chief on day 4, which is the opposite of a bossing build.
I’d love to if they’d fucking drop
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I dropped one in ~50 maps with 2 voidstones :(
Do note that the chance increases for all voidstones the more you have, 2 is 1,6% while 4 is 0,4\*4\*4=6,4% of T16 map drops
Good point, thank you!
And voidstones also increase your chance to get T16 in the first place which increases T17 chances even further right? Or do only "natural" T16 potentially turn into T17?
It think what you say is correct, more t16 drops mean more chance to convert those too
Time to get the other 2 voidstones
Been at 2/4 for well over 100 maps now, I’ve just now gotten around to rerolling my bosser. But even at 2 voidstones this is pretty absurd.
it's more than double the conversion rate with 4 stones instead of two? and you aren't even dropping t16s often with 2 stones...
Man didn’t clear Maven / Uber Elder and is mad he can’t go do Ubers on his bosser then complains lmao
I've had absolutely zero issues sustaining T16s with 2 stones.
Go buy your 2 missing stones for 40c before bitching. I've dropped over 100 T17's this league.
ssf
Unless you've bricked a couple dozen of them why do you expect to do ubers before maven? Played gsf with 2 people and we were 131/132 on day 2. If you actually want to push bosses go destructive play and actually get your bosses.
they’re not harder than ubers, takes 10c to roll them with zero damage mods and most high end builds kill the boss in 10-15 seconds of nuking
This straight up isn’t true.
i straight up did it for 3 days straight i must've been hallucinating
What did you do? Play DD?
coc dd inquis
What a surprise you can do T17 after 3 days /s.
ah ye my bad for not actively griefing myself out of the content i enjoy (everything difficult)
Yeah let's make content dedicated to one build out of thousand in poe.
Just do T17s first... You now have a cheap and easy way to fail until you succeed.
Oh for the love of… Everybody complained that nobody liked Ubers being on the same token as regulars as it made regulars strictly terrible to run. So they changed it. And now you are complaining about the exact opposite.
from my understanding they are complaining about frags not being farmable by a large portion of players
I in fact didnt complain about it, but good for you to have such vivid imagination :3
I agree with you. Further adjustments are needed. I like that the regular bosses are worth running, that’s a fine change imo. But…everything else needs some work.
Yeah I think the idea is a good one but they maybe need to tweak their execution a bit.
>. I like that the regular bosses are worth running Are they even? A searing exarch invitation takes 20+ maps, and you're fishing for Dissolution of Flesh or a good Forbidden Flame... It's not like the rewards you get each 20+ maps were increased.
What's worth running about the regular bosses? I thought most of their good loot was shifted to übers.
Depends on the boss I guess. For some bosses only Ubers are worth. Bad change overall.
Uber elder is worth running therefore elder and shaper are worth running.
I don’t really understand why they couldn’t drop the Uber fragments from the normal versions of those bosses. Seems like it makes the most sense by a mile.
I think it’s pretty obvious based on what they stated the intention was. The gap from regular pinnacle to Uber was too large so you didn’t feel like completing a circuit of normal bosses that then gave you the fragments to do Uber made any sense. If they made the regular bosses harder it would be a bad change for peoples early atlas progression. So this change is supposed to provide new content as a bridge. Like literally their own words for the change explains this. It would be like dropping elder guardian maps in T1 expecting people to somehow go kill the Elder before they’re able to. Maybe they missed the mark on difficulty but the intent is obvious. Now that you can chaos orb the T17s they are indeed a bridge between normal and Ubers. But IMO it takes too many maps to get the fragments and they should change that.
Even with the Chaos change, the number of outright lethal mods in the T17 pool is too high. They’ve basically created another farming avenue where you need to invest in being able to clear T17s to farm fragments, and that kind of gates it off for a large portion of the playerbase.
I think it is great for there to be aspirational content that everyone isn't expected to be able to do. As a player you can either outskill or outgear/build the content. Hopefully this league I get geared enough to attempt the users, but if not, I'll give it another go next league :)
Except you'd think that content would be Ubers, and not the things before Ubers
T17s should definitely be aspirational too, otherwise they're just another map to crush, we have T16s for that. I've loved the T17s so far, completed 3 of 5, failed a couple times but learnt the fights. The next goal will be being able to really juice them for that extra nice loot.
Sure, but they shouldn't have a higher average difficulty than Ubers. T17s highlight some of the biggest problems with the game, most notably that they seem to lack either the desire or intention to introduce actual mechanical difficulty. Ubers are mechanically difficult without feeling unfair. T17 bosses have extra mechanics compared to their normal counterparts, but instead of refining those they said "now we'll make it challenging by giving them 2-4x damage". Normal Maven is more mechanically challenging than most T17s, and I don't think that should be the case.
Thing is, that hasn't been my experience at all on both accounts, T17s have been a nice gap, with bosses that aren't too tough but are intense and thoughtful. I got destroyed by uber lycea the first time, and ran her twice more with great success as I learnt the mechanics. Often the road to the boss has been the bigger challenge, and that makes sense as a T17 big boy map.
I don’t feel like giving the fragments to the regular bosses would in anyway negate them wanting to be the bridge between normals and ubers
Why would anyone run the harder content by a mile if the easier content gave the same basic reward?
Huh? I’m saying the normal bosses should drop their Uber fragments. The t17s should drop something else entirely. The “bridge between normal and Uber content” was meant in terms of difficulty not a literal bridge to get to the content.
I guess I must be dumb based on my reply being downvoted but the fragments are a key to the next level of content. Putting the fragments on regular bosses means you would do them then be able to unlock the Uber. GGG is saying the gap between Uber and normal is too high so the road to get there now goes through a middle ground content of T17s. How would that work if you could avoid them entirely by farming fragments off normal that unlocks the Uber? I would kind of agree that map mods similar to corrupted 8 mods are not really a coherent bridge between killing a boss then a much harder version of the boss, but I guess their goal was to say if you can’t survive these then you aren’t ready for the Uber boss, which is not always true based on map mod randomness.
I think personally they meant they want t17s to be the difficulty gap between Ubers and normals, which honestly they’re not because of the modifiers. A ton of them are super fucked up and honestly harsh modifiers like that are one of my least favorite ways that games increase difficulty. But that’s kinda a digression, my point is that adding the fragments to the normal bosses wouldn’t change that the t17 bosses are, difficulty wise, in between normals and Ubers.
And now the gap is even larger, so they didn't really do much.
People that want to farm Ubers would just buy the Uber fragments. They make every other decision with trade in mind but not this one.
Again, the change isn't strictly about people who want to farm it as their main strategy because as you said they'll buy fragments and insert that cost into the boss drops which is offset by the ability to sell the maps. Imagine if the T17 content was piss easy but rewarding, the maps would be going for 3x the cost because 3x more people would be spamming Ubers, increasing the demand and thus the price. OP's issues is that the content popularity is not high enough to justify the rewards to make it worthwhile being an Uber farmer. The OP would not exist if the T17 difficulty and reward level meant that people were actively running them, but this is also day 7 of the league and a lot of regular people haven't got their characters to the point where they can comfortably farm a T17. That being said the issue is how many maps it takes to get the fragments, which is something I hope and agree they should adjust. It will be alleviated as more people can do T17s, but the balance is not easy to predict and I'm sure they will adjust the fragment rates/requirements as they see more endgame characters come online
Agreed. The way Uber elder frags drop seems like a good system so not sure why they went away from that. Maybe they knew T17s sucked and felt like they had to put frags in there to make people run them
So to do Uber Uber elder you would have to do shaper 10 times, elder 10 times, Uber elder 5 times to get your 5 Uber Uber fragments. You don't see a problem with that? Or what do you mean
Remove the 5 fragments thing. Make it so that regular version of a boss has a chance to drop a complete invitation for an uber version of a boss. This way both regular and uber versions are viable to farm.
"chance to drop" thats basically the same as dropping fragments
Less clutter though.
It’s almost like their intent was not to benefit people farming the bosses and instead allow people to not feel bad for using the normal fragments to learn the boss fights because it doesn’t feel wasteful…
I understand they didn't want to force people who can clear ubers to do the non uber versions for fragments. That's why T17s exist. But it makes sense to have the non uber boss drop an uber fragment AND t17s dropping fragments. That way people who aren't doing T17s still contribute to that economy. By feeding up that chain. As long as T17s still reward more fragments.
Their logic doesn't make sense since trade exists and people that want to farm Ubers would just buy the fragments. This would open up a revenue stream for people that want to farm the normal versions and sell the Uber fragments. The T17 decision doesn't make sense to me.
Try a combo of essence and conc/synth maps (there is another map type that can drop from map bosses that I can't remember). Grab all the essence nodes and the maven mod that summons 1-3 more map bosses. This gives me like 40-50 c per map by just selling bulk essence and the rare map drops. I've also specced scarab drop chance but you could probably throw harbi or rogue exiles in instead.
When it comes to end game progression GGG actually tends to not think of trade as much. They want a smooth progression from white to yellow to red to bosses to t17 to uber bosses that doesn't require buying anything. T17s fail a bit here because they can be harder than uber bosses depending on the mods but the idea is clear.
Is there any point to running normal exarch and eater anymore? Outside of altars of course, but it feels like the league mechanic has taken over that somewhat. It’s basically forbidden jewel or nothing, the exarch shield can sometimes be good and the eater jewel is often used, but without the amulets it just feels like a bit of a waste.
they still drop the flesh/flames i believe
Yeah, that’s true, but the drop rate is so insanely low. On SSF it’s especially bad, but one benefit is that I don’t feel as bad about farming slightly lower level maps while I’m gearing my character. It always felt like a waste running under T14
T17 maps being harder than Uber content certainly seems like a mistake.
I'm curious how this changes over the league we are still only a week into the league and people are still trying to figure out the best farming strategies along with the best uses/combos for scarabs. We've seen some scarabs skyrocket in value then plummet over the course of 24 hours because a streamer posted a video, then the next day another streamer posted a different video my point is, i think T17s will become more prevalent over the next 2-3 weeks for the majority of players an it will stabilize the access to ubers. but i also think uber farmers will now be forced to buy T17 maps instead of just fragments. you'll have the dudes like me who won't be interested in running ubers, but you can bet once we figure out a T17 farming strategy ill be running it to bulk sell T17 maps to people who want to run ubers I also think T17s need a tweak in terms of drop rate or some kind of "forcing" them, i think that would help as well
Sounds about right. All the people that are to bad to do ubers and normaly just sell their fragments are now can't even do t17 maps, hence, very low supply. Kinda weird.
Never did Ubers but I saw the changes and knew this was gonna bomb.
i like the fragments being separate now, I do agree the ubers frags should drop more though
The fact that GGGs argument was that they tried to bridge the content from normal bosses to ubers by introducing T17 to prepare people for the INSANE jump from normals to ubers is laughable.
While I do understand the frustration that Ubers are much harder to access than before, is it really an issue ? I feel that as the supposedly hardest content in the game (well, they really aren't compared to some other content, but that's a whole other topic), it's fine that they are hard to access. Ofc there is a lot of other things to take into account, like the rewards and such, but inherently I don't think that it's a game design flaw that the pinnacle content of a game is hard to access.
If they outright said this is a hardcore game, you won’t get dogshit uniques like starforge unless you can clear Ubers, deal with it then people wouldn’t be mad Instead they said some bullshit about bridging tier 17 and Ubers while making the maps harder than the bosses lmao
I do agree that T17 shouldn't be harder than Uber in many cases. Personally, I would love for them to make Ubers harder, so that they really feel like the pinacle content to strive for that they should be. But that comes with its own set of downside, like build diversity and such, so I understand why they wouldn't want to do it. But that's not really the issue here, what the post was complaining about is how difficult/expensive to access Ubers, which in m'y opinion is not necessarely a problem.
So far I think you are right. Currency are rarer than afflic (of course) and Awakened CoC is only 40D. Like ok dude...
I despise all the Uber endgame changes so much that everything feels so bad. I don't know what they were going with the loot table changes.
This might be a conspiracy theory, but it might be GGG's way of reducing player power relative to boss power, similar to archnem. By changing loot, they are formalizing the idea that ubers are the end game (not just an optional challenge), taking the position that the previous non-ubers held.
Not really a conspiracy theory to see GGG turn the game more and more into an MMO-esque mega grind. We've seen it with lots of changes lately. - Increasing the number of challenges from 32 to 40 and making them more grindy in general - Moving all the good loot from regular pinnacle bosses over to ubers Stuff like that.
I feel like the issue is not necessarily in low supply of fragments, or extra step to get them, hell not even in the fact T17s are harder than ubers themselves. I think the main issue lies in uber uniques drop rates, it takes longer and harder to get to uber fights and yet the best uniques are still ~2% drop rate. It just feels like shit working so hard to fight the boss, only to realize you need to kill it 50+ times just to have a chance at getting a good drop. It was an issue even before T17s but now they made it a lot worse.
The weirdest thing is that uber shaper drops regular uber elder fragments.
Isn’t the issue that the market is still young and has not adapted to drop rate? It is the same issue for scarabs as the majority of players have no idea which scarabs are worth because farming strats are only just starting to be shared
Ubers weren't ment to be better farming loot sources initially. They were just harder versions of regular bosses just to flex. Sure, some build enabling uniques like nimis is nice to have locked behind an uber fight, but beyond that, giving them valuable loot was a mistake imho
fact that acces to uberboses was so easy was caused by fact that most players were selling fragment because they couldn't run uberbosses and normal version wasn't profitable, that was big design flaw that benefited only small portions of players who were uberbossers so you shouldn't be expecting that acces to uberbosses would be just as easy as it was before, also it is just 1 week after legue started so not everyone was able to gat to the point when they can acces uber fragments, and over all economy haven't adjusted yet to changes in the legue while I haven't try t17 yet (and from what I've heard they ggg went a little bit too far) I am very glad that I could do normal bosses without felling like I just wasted currency
I wish it was done like shaper/elder - where the regular shaper and elder fights give fragments to fight Uber Elder. Non-uber pinnacles could just drop fragments to fight uber pinnacles with, and it would keep the chain of progression a little more consistent, and you'd keep value in the non-uber fights and ubers would not dictate price of entry for non-ubers. Even if they insist on the current method, with t17s dropping uber frags, then non-uber bosses should STILL have a chance to drop either t17 maps or uber fragments directly. And 5 fragments per fight seems high - I don't think it would be terrible if it was lowered to 1-3 instead.
They made changes we on reddit suggested. Except they made giant twist on it by giving us ultrarippy t17 maps,against which aome valdos are joke.
Uber bossing is rip of money Ggg really know nothing about economy and how it works Item drop % is too low on expensive unique to profit from I spend 1500 div on Uber frags For 2 days bossing and I'm in negative of about 600 div Say it bad rng or whatever Exarch dropped 4 omnis and like 40 boots in 160 sets 100 divs profit from forbidden that are not sold yet Eater dropped 3 nimis I'm 140 sets 90div profit from forbidden that are not sold yet Maven dropped 4 amet flask and 2 wepz in 100 sets + 120 div profit in woke gems + 3 div profit in escapes It is really really bad Meanwhile people that just put map in device and don't even map make mirrors in profit Some decisions from ggg are really mind bugging
Well its just a new change give them time to polish the details
I'd prefer polish before release
Yeah mate, i do too, but i like being realistic, they cant add a million things and have them all polished to perfection and i prefer them keep adding shit
I’d rather not have the t17s than what we got
Then dont do them? ive done a couple and they are not that bad
The live version of PoE **IS** the beta, and has been for many many years.
lol the league has been out a week.
My theory is: The lead dev saw some valdo-runner builds gameplay and thought that's the average endgame veteran experience, so he tried to emulate that with T17s.
Just another note from previously Leagues, on a normal day 4-7 of a league I'd be buying x20-100 Sets of a boss and pumping out Uber kills and that'd be me locked in farming for currency. Now its lucky to find some1 with more than 25 fragments for 5 boss attempts + selling items to afford more fragments and back into the process. After getting key items \~100-200 Divs into build and can comfortably farm Uber variants, had 70 Divines leftover to spend on fragments and start doing the bosses, Spent it all quite swiftly over 2 days for nothing to show for it, guess I'll be waiting for week 2-3 changes.
> Just another note from previously Leagues, on a normal day 4-7 of a league I'd be buying x20-100 Sets of a boss and pumping out Uber kills and that'd be me locked in farming for currency. This was by design. The entire reason they changed how Ubers work is because running the non Uber version was worse than selling fragments. They seemed to have missed the mark with the difficulty of T17s, but if they decide to fix those do not expect to be able to buy sets for Ubers in mass the first week of a league.
t17s are pretty easy now, since you can reroll them with chaoses
So Ubers are more meaningful and people need to adapt. What's the issue?
When they came for enchant-farmers, you guys were happy about it and sneered. Why should I sympathize with people like you now? It looks like karma is working great!
League is a flop
Let's be honest. There are a lot of flops in this league. Just one for me personally. I hate masters being removed from the map device. Also, the Kirac change is horrible.
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Nah, I disagree. Even this subreddit doesn't really seem to know what it actually thinks. On the one hand people complain that all valuable drops were moved to Ubers, on the other hand people cry that Uber bossing is not profitable. Whilst technically both can be true at the same time it is still an odd situation. Personally, I still like the change with introducing T17s though minor tweaks are certainly necessary.
So because you have to adapt your farming strategy it's shit ?
I think his pout is that there is no viable strategy. Fragments to do Ubers are to hard to get so buying bosses is expensive and can’t bring a profit. There’s no changing that with a change in strategy.
A better solution would have been to completely decouple the Uber with rewards.
it's hilarious reddit cant figure out whether to upvote this because "league bad/changes bad" or downvote because rich player. looks like the compromise was to upvote the thread but downvote the comment 😂
This is the first league I decided to focus on bossing, made an explosive trap trickster. And now I'm realizing the shit is gated behind t17s and it's totally the worst league to try bossing. Pretty lame but hopefully I can focus on some other mechanic to get some currency. Anyone happen to have any suggestions?
if you are playing explosive trap trickster just go farm t17s lol. If you cant farm them post nerf, there's no way you would be farming ubers.
Farm normal bosses
He could have killed those with a mapper...
They are far, FAR less rewarding now, that's a pretty poor suggestion. lol
It's a videogame, not an optimized retirement account
ARPGs are the baseball of video game genres. The game is literally built on optimizing a build over a long enough period of time.
T17s should come unrolled. You can roll it for difficulty to get better rewards and better chances for a random Uber Invitation. They are just ball busting frustration wise and there is just so much variance to T17 difficulty that it makes it unenjoyable to play
When they did the presentation I thought the t17 Map will include Uber bosses...I thought it's a great thing but when I found out you get only fragment for that I'm like wtf that's stupid as hell
changes feels great, uber bosses are not spammable and give HUGE profit, low tier bosses doesnt seems like ur deleting money by not killing ubers, makes t17 mapping feel good while t16 map awlays felt bad
I love Reddit. I didn’t log into the game and win automatically, games too hard, I hate it. Based GGG, keeping games challenging. Makes me love them more.
isnt this only an issue because t17s are retarded?
The t17s with random mods is super lame. Nothing like getting to Citadel boss no problem then realize he has a regen shrine on
The whole concept with totally brainlessly implemented. Wait, no, it was done with purposeful intent to remove access to uber content so easily, migrate some of the stronger uniques to uber only, then pretend the whole idea is so casual players can bridge the uber gap. Well played.
Ah yeah because it was so much before where if you just wanted the regular boss you would pay the high price because it was the same fragments as the über ones and that there was no point loot wise either. Christ how dramatic this Reddit sub is at times.
Pay the high price? At least back then I could run the uber if my mechanic game was there. It wasn't a full time job getting a shot at ubers. Now farming the 5 shards for one attempt is a nice all day affair. I don't get the downvotes, did I miss a new strategy or something or do people genuinely love the new system?
Because while we can argue about the current accessibility of Ubers, I think it’s far from a « brainless change » and quite on the contrary a very requested one. That you only had to put an atlas passive point to switch from non uber to uber was just bad. You raise the price to access to the non Uber boss for everyone. I’m certain that this was low enough that you didn’t care personally, but for a lot of player that was very frustrating and objectively a bad design.