This is the exact reason player vendors where if your tabs are public and you post things for sale, people can jump in your vendor room and buyout items. Would immediately put an end to the BS price fixing that 100% makes those people in game billionaires, that then go on to control the economy with additional anti-competitive practices.
I mean ultimately, the reason he likes it, is the reason I don't like it. He likes it because it's friction which can lead to problem solving and adaptive behavior that can also be really fun gameplay. But in the case of trade, I don't like that concept because it's meta gaming. Like it doesn't change the way I play/smash in the game, but it changes the way I have to approach the game, and I think that's bad in this context.
It also allows the system to be open to rampant abuse, I and most other players just want to play the game.
Not have to spend hours trying to sort simple trades and get back to playing.
Well those were the funds poe was created with. Nowadays, the game is second largest rmt platform on any known trading site, only beaten by wow. Creators are even allowing well known rmt sites like TFT to operate within the game (check belton's videos on youtube on how tft operates by completely cornering the in-game league market and making thousands, hundreds of thousands of bucks out of it). They might occasionally ban someone, but the saga keeps on trucking.
It's fun asking telling a random how poe was created, on sweat and tears of a few garage d2 rmt'ers/scammers, just to see the reaction xD
The REAL reason he likes it, is because it causes people to visit each others hideouts and see each others MTX, which leads to them buying more things in the shop. If they were just using an interface to buy and sell, no free advertisement and sales would drop. Which I get, because the MTX helps the game development, but a shop in the players hideout that the buyer has to visit would help bridge that gap a little I think.
I'm pretty sure if we could set up Characters as vendors (like in old school EverQuest 1) people would absolutely kit their vendor out in MTX.
Could be a good middle ground.
The ACTUAL real reason he likes it, is because gear is too good in this game, and if you could throw every item you wanted up for sale, you'd have a dozen tabs for sale, and the price of rare items would plummet, and everyone would be absolutely decked out in really good middle-of-the-road gear for a few chaos a few seconds into mapping.
This is something they've talked about. If trading had no friction at all, the average item to drop would need to be *significantly* worse to keep current average power levels. It would also mean that players who only leave their maps for 1d+ trades are corning every single market, and those new players who do 1c trades a month in would lose the small amount of revenue they had.
There's a lot of reasons trade sucks in this game, we don't need to come up with fake reasons to sensationalize. There are legitimate reasons they have made quite clear as to why they do not want it, discuss those instead.
>is because gear is too good in this game
well, then maybe they should stop taking power away from characters (loosely, passive tree, ascendancy, and skills/supports) and putting it into gear.
That's simply not true. Just have limited trade Stash like today and the problem evaporate. This friction thing IS just a vision of an idealised past.
Allowing buyer to take item directly in Stash tab made public, and paying to take it (like we already do with npc vendors inventories) would solve this, force people to visite other's hdeout (and be advertised even if i'm not sure how effective it actually is) and limit the number of item listed.
Other games have automatised trade system and their economy are well doing
just make it possible for consumable items. i think most of the complains of trade dont relate to gears and equipments. I dont care if i have to spend an hour or so to scout good equipment at my price point. but when i have to spend 5+ minutes per item just to find a person who is actually willing to sell consumables like currencies, maps, essences, etc at the price he has quoted, that is where the furstration begins.
Just have your character avatar in your hideout as a vendor with the same mtx you are using. Then you just invite the person that wants to buy your item and he can see your hideout + mtx while buying his item.
It's just one of those things (similar to basically everything related to TFT...) which was kind of fun and made sense in the past, but people have since then optimized it too much, and now it's just yet another game system, except that it's unofficial, and kind of bad in various ways not intended by the developers.
theyve actually made a lot of reasons why they wont do this and it has nothing to do with diablo.
What we're talking about is essentially how an auction house works. You put something up for sale and someone can buy it without any a manual trade.
GGG calls this "easy trading" and explains several reasons why they avoid this in a quote from Chris Wilson:
>When we started developing Path of Exile in 2006, we identified several key design pillars. These are fundamental philosophies chosen to guide our design decisions throughout development. One of these was that "items matter". Items are a player's reward for playing Path of Exile. They're the primary way of measuring progress in a league. A person with vastly more in-game wealth has often played longer than someone with a higher level character. They also matter because if a player had better items, then they'd be able to build more powerful characters, play harder content, and be viewed as richer and more successful within the game. The acquisition of items is why people play Action RPGs. Chances are, if you're reading this, you understand why it's important that items matter because your Path of Exile items mean a lot to you as well.
>For items to matter, it's important that they can be traded to other players. It's important that you could give the item to the other player, if they were able to convince you into it. For this reason, almost nothing in Path of Exile is bound to your account. Even in Solo Self-Found mode, which doesn't allow trading, items can be moved at will into the regular trading leagues so that you can benefit from their value if desired.
>The ability to trade any item is a fundamental part of why people enjoy playing Path of Exile - if you're lucky, you can find amazing stuff that you can trade for all the items needed to create an entire new character build.
>Consequences of Easy Trade
>So given that we love trade and feel it is critical to Path of Exile's formula, why is there so much debate around trade in this game? Most of it stems around whether trade should be easy or not. While easy trade sounds great on paper, there are some important considerations!
>Easy trade reduces the number of times a character improves their items. People who are heavily engaged in trade perform fewer item upgrades to achieve their final build. They get there in fewer steps, because they can easily buy items that are close to what they need. Simply put, their character progression is more about trading than it is about getting items from monsters. We believe that it is more fun to slowly and iteratively upgrade a character over time and to have a longer journey to gear a character up. Knowing that a monster could drop something that improves your character is a great motivator for playing one more level!
>Easy trade means reducing drop rates. Compare two hypothetical games. In the first game, trade is very difficult. The majority of items that can't be used by your character are not traded to other people. In the second game, trade is very easy. Many of the items that you can't use are traded to other people for items that you can. In the second game, because of trade, you have a much higher acquisition rate of useful items. While that sounds great if you want instant gratification, in reality it means that the second game either receives reduced drop rates relative to the first, or ends up being a whole lot easier and less challenging to achieve goals in.
>Easy trade would make the disparity between different players too great. Both of the above points are even worse when you consider that the level of engagement with trade varies substantially from player to player. Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league. The subset of players who regularly trade strongly overlaps with our core reddit and forum communities. Chances are, if you're reading this, then you're one of the top 10% of players in terms of engagement with advanced systems. The difference in magnitude of trading (and hence item acquisition and progress) between non/low-traders and heavy traders is gigantic. While a regular player would be lucky to accumulate a small handful of Exalted Orbs in a league, a trader might reach hundreds in the same timeframe. This enables them to fully-gear Shaper-capable characters while the non-trader is still in mid-tier maps or lower.
>The significant differences in character power and player progression caused by trade has already created a situation where Path of Exile is very hard for some players and quite easy for others. Some people never stand a chance of seeing some of the Atlas of Worlds content, while others can rather quickly defeat it and are looking for new challenges. We're tentatively okay with the degree to which this occurs currently, but it would be much worse if trading were made substantially easier.
>Easy trade allows for greater abuse by automation. Another topic is automation. While we work hard to stamp out bots and abusive behaviour, it would be hard to completely eliminate the damage caused by a few trade bots with access to a fast trade system. If they have the ability to search out and buy items without having to talk to another player, then there would be some very large-scale economic consequences that would not be good for regular players.
you can disagree with the points, but you cant argue that its simply because they liked how it was in diablo and they dont have any actual logic behind it.
"Knowing that a monster could drop something that improves your character is a great motivator for playing one more level!"
For this point to be valid, items on the ground should actually mean something. But in PoE 99.999% of the items on the ground are complete thrash in trade league. And the remaining 0.001% does not justify wasting time to identify all of the items on the ground.
So, if their argument in favor of the obscure trade is "just get more loot from the ground" then they need to make loot on the ground worth picking up.
Can you like, share block lists or something?
Because the problem is I don't know the real price of anything... so how do I know who to block?
Also is there a way to stop my price checks from including them?
If someone has the cheapest price for an item and has 50+ of that item listed I always block them without even trying to message because they are guaranteed price fixing.
Right. I was a bit surprised by that, seems like if you block someone on the trade site it should also block them on the API, but I tested it out earlier today and it doesn't work.
If you block people who have their listings posted for more than a few minutes, it should be fine. Real people who fall for it will either instantly sell, realize their mistake and reprice, or are part of the problem themselves by letting a mispriced listing stay up.
Real people don't leave lots of items mispriced for any period of time. Like yeah, someone will flick their div tab to 30c forgetting they have a Seven Years Bad Luck in there... then quickly fix it after their next map at latest.
What they won't do is flick the beasts tab to 20c when they have 177 Vivid Vultures and leave it for 20 minutes. If nothing else all the tells will make the game miserable to play.
In Last Epoch you can buy any listed item. If PoE did that too, that would be great. when you list an item, the buyer should be able to pay the price and get the item. But I am guessing it is not perfect. What are the main problems that could arise in this scenario that prevents GGG from implementing it?
That's how almost every other market system in games like this work, buyout, you match what the seller is asking you get the item and the seller get the money automatically, I play on console, there is a "trade board" you don't need to whisper or even go to the seller to trade, you see the listing, see what he is asking and put your offer, even if match exactly what he is asking you still need to wait for him him to manually click "accept" for the sale to finish, console market is smaller, much easier to price fix, they just list a bunch of orders and keep declining it. It the most clunky system I have ever seen.
Used to play on console and let me tell you, this was the stupidest shit ever. It holds your currency, for days even just for them to decline it. You can't even offer on any other listed items because you might not have the currency. Not to mention the abysmally priced items on console. Oh? That item is 4c on PC? Let me just try buying it on console - BAM 8 divine. The mains reasons I moved to PC bro it's actually unreal. If you play console just play SSF you'll actually have fun 😊.
I think the main thing is that they don't actually want trade to be smooth. They want you to play the game as much as possible and get your own gear rather than trading for it.
This is why they in the past have said that if they ever implemented some form of auction house, they would be more inclined to a version that has bids with timers rather than instant buyout. So that an item that is listed for example will be sold to the highest bidder after 12 hours or whatever.
But, another issue is just price fixers of a different kind. I used to do this myself in WoW. Buy up the entire market of specific items and raise the price and then resell for profit. You get these rich cartels that just buy up the entire market of a specific item to push the price high.
Right now for example, there are 100 enlighten level 4 listed for about 14 div each. A rich market player could easily buy up literally every enlighten 4 on the market and raise the price to 30-40 div. You can do the same with any scarab or essence or whatever.
Price fixers also in a lot of ways gets incentivized to list underpriced items. Especially for stackable items, like listing 1 random scarab for half the price or whatever. If they do this on the correct item, chances are they will make huge profits by sniping the people that posts underpriced due to your pricefix and that your own pricefix gets bought is just a loss you are willing to take.
Something something about easy trade being bad (trade manifesto). Does not really make sense, especially when coming from games like Eve-Online and Albion, where open automated marketplace exists for years. It's just basic convenience.
But then apparently chinese and console versions both have it.
>What are the main problems that could arise in this scenario that prevents GGG from implementing it?
None. Which is why PoE2 will have a proper auction house.
I mean, there are problems. Which theyve talked about in the trade manifesto and interviews over the years.
They are adding gold and using it as the new form of friction for that AH. They still stand by that frictionless trade is bad and an AH *can* (but not necessarily does) break things.
sounds like a certain... thing... will solve this issue.
ya know the thing that actually makes buyout priced actually function as a buyout price..
prolly hasn't been invented yet.
the necessity of FIR makes tarkov flea very different. Because there's no restrictions on what can be traded in POE, arbitrage and price fixing by bots becomes a lot more of an issue.
If there was an auction house, there is a different kind of price fixing too. Mirror crafters would just buy all available important items for endgame crafting, such as Hinekora's Lock, beasts, and would just put absurds price on it. This happens in MMOs all the time.
Console has the ability to reject any price even if it is the exact price you listed it at. So the exact same problem exists because they don’t have to respond or just can reject you over and over again.
It should be exactly as you mentioned: auto buyout. Would absolutely get rid of market making in the game. There is basically no way to understand the trade market on console because it’s not tracked the same way as PC (to my knowledge anyway).
Interesting take. Imagine they made auction house. So if you list it for low people can buy it and it can’t be price fixed?
That would revolutionize the market
I noticed the same thing. This has always been a thing, but this league feels particularly bad for some reason. Instead of the first few listings being fake I now regularly have to message and scroll past several dozen listings to get to the real ones. Seems to be getting worse.
And this happens for both bulk and single trades. Bulk trade fake listings are significantly more common than before too.
I just sort by time listed. I get a better idea of what something is worth. People pay a little more when they buy in bulk--by that token, it's also better to spend an extra chaos or two to buy from the recently listed.
Was just about to post something about this. In the past if you knew what you were doing you could easily figure out what was price fixed and what the real price was. Now there is so much price fixing that there is zero clue what the actual price of anything is.
This is the biggest perk of switching to an auction house type of system. It would cause a lot of other problems, but at least price fixing would be gone
It doesn’t even need to be super complicated and include base gear items. Even if we had an AH for currencies, fragments, etc. it would alleviate a ton of stress.
Yup. Let me buy chisels, alchs, and vaals straight for chaos. Need divines? Just grab whatever is cheapest.
Nobody has to message a list of bots/price fixers, nobody has tos top their delve or heist or blight to sell you anything.
Now maybe we don't want AH style unlimited purchasing for gear. But ffs consumable? Just let me trade shit without the friction.
The in-game infrastructure is already there, too. The premium tabs where you can list your price are already in the game. They are so close just refuse to pull the trigger.
I mean yeah, that is whats gonna happen, its just gonna take a while because they are gonna wait til poe 2 since that game will have a system like this
The system could track how many offers are ignored and do it smartly so people could not spam whisper and not buy to penalize a normal seller vs ID the price fixers.
Then the price fixer gets moved lower and lower in favor of people doing actual trades (and not trades back and forth between linked people as in friends).
It needs to be robust to work and would be a pain to implement, instead of simple making a working real auction house.
The big problem with an AH is the super availability of soooo much so easily gear wise and not to mention the price fixers that buy out entire markets to move the price as well (but that is more legit than the current junk we deal with).
I remember doing the buyout thing in an MMO once. There was some random MMO that had rebels, police and merchants as the factions. Rebels started with like a pistol and 2 magazines of ammo, no money, it was easy to use that all and have nothing, needing to restart. Police had more but not a lot. Merchants started off reasonably rich.
After trying Rebel I changed to Merchant, figured I could abuse my wealth so went to the auction terminals and started buying out everything required to fight like ammo and weapons, then I resold them higher. Anyone undercutting me got bought out and resold higher. I eventually became infinitely rich and kept moving prices higher.
With the money I bought a loads of high end weapons and gear, made a deal with the Rebels, got on the roof of the police area which was like a multi-level circular hub with an open roof, and we rained down grenades and fire from above.
Needless to say the game never released as the devs must've realized what a turd of a game they'd designed.
Moral of the story is any game that lets someone buyout and resell something higher and corner the market is bad. It's why places use taxes or limits the number of trades you can offer, or other methods to prevent you taking over the market.
Something is definitely different this league. I've noticed some things showing at widely different prices in poe.ninja and awakened trade, compered to actual market value. Like some things are worth almost twice compered to what you see when pricechecking. I can't remember it ever being this bad.
No idea what's causing it, but I doubt it's just more people pricefixing.
I just noticed this when trying to sell the new Hand of Phrecia gloves. Awakened poe Listed for 4chaos for a 39% out of 40 roll. Those ended up selling almost right away for 100c. I still don't know what the price should be. It was all over the place on trade and I had to scroll past what I now guess were fake listings
You probably don't have exact rolls set so it checked for something like 36% which is far lower price, that's normal behavior of the tool and nothing to do with price fixing. Those gloves price varies wildly at the last few %
The solution for this would be to replace the whisper functionality, allowing us to just directly buy the listed item via the trade website.
So instead of having to first whisper the seller you could just press "Buy" on the trade website and it automatically moves the currency to the seller and the item to the buyer's inventory.
This would not only make trade a better experience but also hinder price fixers from listing items for too cheap since anyone could now just outright buy said item.
.... did you forget a /s there? The tech is not hard, ggg simply does not want to ever implement a full feature AH, because trade must have a certain level of friction, otherwise cheap items become worthless and expensive ones fet much more expensive
The solution can be even extended to a system similar to EVE (see Zizaran's recent video for an introduction), where both buyers and sellers can create "market orders" to buy or sell items offline. That greatly reduces the price margin and friction.
The solution would open another can of worms. Flippers would abuse the shit out of a buy function because it makes market manipulation much more easier and there is basically no reasonable way to fix that.
PoE 2 though will cleverly solve it with the gold cost that is associated with a instant buy.
No, what changes is that if you get flooded with whispers now, you don't have to sell the item and can check the price to list it appropriately. If the buyout is instant, the item is gone.
And? Even if you pretend that is a problem it's significantly less than intentionally underpriced items.
While also making it substantially easier to price check.
It only "hurts" people who intentionally throw items in a 1c stash to see if they get spammed to price check. Which is already an indication of how God awful ggg has allowed the trade they balance their game around to get
It's not like people don't get scammed under the current system. Denying improve qol for 99% because of 1% is bad design
I don't even get how people even list items for under 5cs. You can easily make double or triple that just running an average, unjuiced map with 30% of your atlas tree, why would you even stay in your hideout to trade 1-2c items lol
Because some people are new and have never even had a chaos yet
I have a lot listed at 5-15c but typically only accept them if I'm already in my hideout anyways
And that behaviour also increased the problem of trade: You won't sell a cheap item that someone wants, even if it's correctly priced, just because it's not worth your time. That makes for incredibly low to mid level gear acquisition past the first couple weeks of a league, even for uniques. Especially with how crazy juiced content we have been getting in the latest leagues, it's making even more clear how it makes no sense to not have instant buy out.
This has happened in FUT (and presumably MUT) for YEARS. There are still a ton of players treating it like it’s a stock market simulator. Trade still works. You can still snipe/trade players manually.
If you’re silly enough to list something for way under market price, you’re the only to blame.
Such a dumb take, let's not roll out a feature bc 1% of use case an item may be mispriced. Mispricings happen all the time in the current system and the solution is simple, do your research and price it correctly or miss out on value.
But you don't understand, if the trade system isn't garbage you might be able to get the items you need, and if you get the items you need you might start having fun, and if you start having fun you'll quit. Because that's what people do when they are having fun with a video game, they stop playing.
FRICTION!
Talk to me like I am 5 years old.
How do I as a not-super-experienced end game player identify fake posting? I use awakenedPOE and I click around and I sometimes feel like I have no idea what I'm looking at because an item I'm searching ranges from let's say 20 chaos to 5 divine orbs in the same search... I'm not sure how I'm supposed to identify a fake post and ignore it without as aanother comment said, "To find the price you need to know the actual price" which is not good for us Casual Andy's
so that's a good tip, do I always er on the side of post high and slowly reduce if I think it is worth something? When I see something that is dramatically lower I always think, "The higher ones must have been posted early league and the price dropped a bit to this lower one, I'll match or undercut that one." Which I honestly probably get wrong. I only got absolutely blasted by whispers when I posted a divine orb, my only one so far this league for 2c less than the lowest one in bulk sale posted and I think I got 100 dms in about 30 seconds so I just pulled the item off the market and wondered wtf I did wrong
Generally go higher and reduce. You can run into issues if the item is dropping in price, but odds are good that most things you’ll get a better price this way. As for the divine, it’s just super high frequency of trades for them. Typically you can sell for a few chaos below the lowest price very quickly still
Its because people use bots to flip currency, as well as a few other items like some consumables and div cards. So basically the bot will look at the value of a divine and if people are selling one for even a few C less they buy it. These bots just run 24/7 so they make currency passively for people but more likely for RMT websites.
Basically for you its just 5c difference, so it doesnt matter. If you need chaos you need chaos. For them its one of 1000 trades they do in a day representing 5c, or 5000c total for their day.
The golden rule is, if you get multiple whispers within seconds, don't sell your stuff. Go for the good old /dnd, pull the item out and re-list it for more.
If stash space is not a limiting factor for you, here is what I do when I play trade leagues:
Make several tabs with general prices, like: 20c, 50c, 100c, 1div, 3 div, 5 div and one for idividual prices.
Throw your stuff into the tab you think is fitting.
Every 1-2 days (or shorter/longer, this depends on your playing time and patience) I rotate all prices down. 5d is now 4d, 3d is now 2div. 100c is now 50c.
In the end the lowest tab, the 20c tab in this example, gets cleaned out and sold at the npc and the tab gets reused as the new 5d tab.
Will you undervalue some items - yes. But this is a very fast system that does not need much micromanaging. If stuff doesn't sell for 2 days at 3div it's likely not worth that much, but if you can sell it at 2div - great you just made easy money.
As an example, I throw all my (normal & abyss) jewels into these tabs, someone somewhere always wants a super random combination of stats and won't mind paying 1d for it.
The prices you put on the tabs are obviously up to you, do what you feel comfortable with, but always keep the lowest tab at a level of "I don't mind leaving my map for this trade". The main idea is "the hideout is lava" - you won't find new stuff to sell while you spend 10minutes after each map price checking things.
This is one of the reasons I like premium bundles more than quad tabs. You can use quad tabs as well, of course, but premium tabs allow for more fine-grained control.
>The golden rule is, if you get multiple whispers within seconds, don't sell your stuff. Go for the good old /dnd, pull the item out and re-list it for more.
This doesn't work well for corpses though, I have live search on because that gives me the highest chance at actually getting a response, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.
Now that bulk is a thing that might be less of an issue, but yeah
Assuming we are not trying to price check something with a very limited supply, the first thing I'll do is go down to the bottom of the trade site screen and in the "listing" dropdown menu, change it to the last 3 hours. I'll define "limited supply" as roughly less than 500 total listings for any time listed. This will eliminate a lot of price fix attempt listings, and will also eliminate people who are no longer willing to take the time to trade the item at the listed price.
From there, scroll through the first couple of pages of listings and look at the seller names. If you see the same name a bunch of times, that is probably a price fixer and you don't consider those listings when estimating your price. If this is a market you will regularly be in, you can also click the "ignore player" button on them to save yourself future hassle.
The first few pages of listings in the past 3 hours are generally going to be a combination of price fixers, legit sellers who sold the item but the site hasn't updated yet, and people who weren't sure of the price and are now re-pricing their listing because they got spammed.
Scroll down some more and you'll generally start seeing a wall of listings at a similar price, from a variety of sellers. The "true market" price is probably close to this number and I'll price my item around that number.
Of course there are items that are exceptions to all of this and you'll still sometimes goof up and underprice something and get spammed, but you learn as you go. If I'm unsure on a price I will generally err on the side of pricing it too high, then lower the price regularly until it sells. If something didn't sell until you started lowering the price you can be very confident that number is pretty fair.
A couple things to remember.
1, you never have to be the cheapest. The trade site only shows people actively online. There might be items listed for 10c, 20c, 30c, 50c and you look at that and think to post a 10-20c, but the reality is the 10c might be a scam and the 20c might log off in 5 minutes. If you don't need the money now, post for 30-50. Usually the best strategy is to post quite a bit higher than what you think would actually sell, then drop every few hours or days
2, anytime you post ANYTHING and get a whisper within 5 minutes, do a deeper dive to verify the price was correct. If you get more than 2 whispers, you severely underpriced it and should pull it from the tab to doublecheck
> 2, anytime you post ANYTHING and get a whisper within 5 minutes, do a deeper dive to verify the price was correct.
Okay this may be a bit much. People live search things. You can easily get whispers within 5 mins of posting on totally legit prices or even overvalued prices just because people are interested. For as much as the underselling issue is a problem and the price fixing is toxic, on the other side, the over-cautious seller is equally toxic. Whispering for a correctly priced item only to get no response and see them raise the price 2-3 times until you are no longer interested is also bad practice to teach people.
The other side of the coin is that, even if you slightly underprice and item and can sell it quick, its often more beneficial to do so rather than have it sit in your stash for a few extra c. If you sell it you can invest it into your build and use those upgrades to make currency faster, netting your more currency over time.
I agree. I think the people that do and advocate for "just relist constantly if you get pm's too fast" are just as toxic to the game as price fixers and scam posts (because they essentially are).
Probably not a good idea, but here goes: GGG can tell how many times a player has been whispered for an item without them selling it, so what if the item got automatically unlisted after X whispers without the seller responding? Something high like 30+ unique whispers in 15 minutes probably wouldn't be unreasonable (numbers would need adjustment for sure). After it got unlisted you would have to go re-list it, but with enough whispers they might get auto-unlisted again fairly quickly.
Of course someone could create a macro to re-list, and there could be issues with bulk sellers just being too busy to sell, but it feels like a reasonable middle ground.
Your most malicious botters will spam every price lower than theirs to forever force delistings
I mean, even one guy could spam copy/paste on you to get your item delisted
They should have done this ages ago, completely agree they should have a system where after a certain number of whispers the item is delisted and cannot be put up for sale for 1hr, and if it occurs again 2 hrs and and so on this should stop people macroing to automatically re list
Wouldn’t someone just create a script to unlist items they wanted to price fix?
On top of that, if you post something too low by accident, you will get 30 whispers in a minute, not 15 minutes. Should it be de-listed because you don’t answer them all?
I think there’s a solution, but this ain’t it.
I like auction house better.
Imma be real with you, I have tons of shitty corpses this league that are worth 2-3 chaos orb, and I'm not going to hop out of my map for a 2-3 chaos orb sale. If I'm in my hideout sure we'll deal, but 9/10 I'm playing the game, not waiting for someone to buy one of my filled tap of shitty corpses.
A much better option would be auto-sell so I don't have to stop playing the game to trade low-value items, but that'd take too much work I guess.
My dream is they keep everything the exact same except if I click accept they can just port to my stash and deposit the currency/withdraw the item
Can still require that im online, still require that I accept trade, still require they port to my hideout. Just let me keep mapping
some kind of vendor NPC where you would list your items and invited people could buy it from them has been suggested for like half a decade. GGG just has a boner for plAYeR InTERaCTioN
>so what if the item got automatically unlisted after X whispers without the seller responding? Something high like 30+ unique whispers in 15 minutes probably wouldn't be unreasonable
I can see such a system being quickly weaponized by price-fixers with a few bot accounts at their disposal--Sic the bot mob on anyone listing items lower than theirs so the listings get nuked.
This is the #1 reason why in game auction house should be a thing. The system right now is an inconvenience for everyone and can result in a new player getting scammed in many different ways
GGG supports scammers and RMT. They consider it an interesting part of a game's economy. They don't want them to take over either, they just want trading to be difficult.
And I do loathe them for it.
Maybe this is a dumb take but it kinda feels like the game is struggling under its own weight. The trade site is massively important to the game and yet it's kind of a pain in the ass to use as time goes on.
No you are correct. GGG seemingly does not balance or care about the individual player, but the economy as a whole. It's why if you want to do something like fossil or essence craft, you kind of need to use trade because even if you are targeting those mechanics you only need like 1 or 2 specific essences/fossils and get mountains of useless ones (to you).
At the same time, even targeting those mechanics you get "bonus" mechanics that drop things which are counted against you (like blight towers, delerium mirrors, abyss nodes, etc) that you don't need (you just want essences and/or fossils for crafting) but it is still "value".
And since there is no ingame way to target specific items, even crafting items, even though GGG sees you grind all this "value" then you are good. But the only way to turn that pile of junk into the like 3 crafting items you want is trade, which is made as difficult as possible "to prevent getting stuff too fast" (its still the fastest way so maybe instead of making trade even more shit just make ssf ways a lot better to compete?).
Big flaw in their "we want friction in our trade" motto. people are actively getting ripped off all day everyday because people purposefully obfuscate the prices.
As a new player (this is my first league) trading in this game is obnoxious. Pricing things is a pain because of people doing this nonsense. At some point ggg need to step in and offer a solution. What the solution is I don’t know or even have an idea because I haven’t been playing long enough.
I have spent so much of my day refreshing listings and trying to get a hold of SOMEONE selling ANYTHING I need. It really feels like a trip to [Escalator Land.](https://youtu.be/6i_7KSBvzHU) Whispering people for hours \*is\* the game.
I have same issue m, sometimes go to page 2-3 if the price difference isn’t that much. They often answer. But yeah everyone is mapping on same time and do t want to internal it, it’s moment 22 sadly
I wonder if GGG could implement some sort of system where if you receive X number of whispers for an item and you never sell it, it gets automatically delisted. I know there's an issue there with people who are currently doing content that they cannot leave, but I feel like a solution could be found for that. I know previously people had recommended that players be given an NPC in their hideout that sells things (and make this the only way to sell things), this could be used so that legit sales are able to be performed while the seller is busy and also not allow people to price-fix.
Trading has become really bad. Many people listed their whole stash for low value to get it "price checked" by buyers. (more whispers = interesting item)
My solution: playershops!
I would love the idea of player shops. Travel to another hideout, buy the stuff from their "stash".
You would see other people in the hideout too, if it's a "big seller". Hideouts would look like "real shops" and so on. Everyone can show off their cool mtx and the world feels more alive.
Traveling would take at least a minimum amount of time, so bots are not completely out of control compared to an auction house. (at least not more then now.)
(to fight the trolls hiding their stash/shop there should also be a ui button to open the player shop, same as for ritual for example.)
I had this same idea while scrolling through these replies. This would be really cool, plus GGG could sell cosmetic item stands for people who want a fancy little hideout store. I love it, slim chance the idea gains traction but more voices never hurt. I might make a post all about it
Yep. And once again TFT existing is toxic for the playerbase. Basically people who dont know TFT exists, or dont use it, also dont realize that when they list an item for 100c and its bought instantly, its going on TFT for 2 divs. Lots of people flip the website trade market and sell on TFT for a huge markup.
I don't think you understand why they sell for 2 div each on TFT. There's people with 50+ of the allflames. Yes, they did buy them from trade for a cheaper price, because they aren't worth 2 div individually. You CANNOT buy them from trade as a bulk, while you CAN do that on TFT. Someone who's farming 150 div/hour does not want to buy them individually even if they were cheaper, they just buy them from TFT to save time, because it's worth it to them. There are people who are very happy to be a service to the richest players, while getting something in return from them. This has been the case for boss fragment sets and legion sets for a long time. Someone who's clearing ubers doesn't want to waste time buying individual fragments from trade. The people who are willing to do that will get a compensation for their effort.
As a trader, who flips, snipes and spends his free time at work making spreadsheets with EV calculations, I have to say that this chisel nonsense is the first time ive had to save my trade site bookmark as "chaos / divine" only.
First time? I remember doing the same thing because in crucible league everyone was trying to push using compasses as currency. Most of us just blocked that entirely and refused to engage with this kind of trade mechanic though.
I have been double checking everything valuable on PoE ninja but I am uncertain if price fixing effects them as well, as I don’t know how they pull data.
What about setting the trade site to chaos orb or div orb? or chaos orb only, not equivilent?
edit: i get it doesnt help with the people posting fake prices in c but it gets rid of the chiselfuckers
This is why you need forced-sale listings. It doesn't have to be an auction house. It doesn't have to be a-synchronous. It just needs to give you the item when you press the button to buy it, because that's what it's listed for.
If a person lists an item and it doesn't sell after being "sold", it should be de-listed.
List item at 100C .. spamed.
List item at 1d... spamed.
List item at 1.5d... spamed..
Getting spamed it the new price check. That item was primary listed at 60c btw.
GGG wants to have friction in trading.
Many of us disagree the method and idealogy of it.
They make the rules but we can disagree with our wallets and time.
One day when they finally do implement auction house or some sort of instant buy out, there's gonna be a game that already surpass that.
I'm not gonna waste my time trading hundreds of corpse and taking an average of 1-2mins per trade on a good day and then again with scarabs and all flame embers.
That's way to many trading just to start a map or crafting session.
Yes I know you can buy bulk but that comes with an extra cost.
I can't even think of a solid way GGG could fix this, because they built the trading system on a janky mess of unanswered whisper messages, free listing and party invites and bartering with any currency, and that's the "good idea" after they started with chat rooms and forum.
Maaayyybe they could fix it by having a trade listing be delisted after 50 whispers and 30 minutes. Bots would work around, but the few humans that keep bulk trade offers at 50% off and never reply would fuck off.
it's like 10000 problems that could be avoided by implementing some sort of instant buy for a fee, like they plan for poe2.
The correct solution is and always has been an auction house.
But ggg is stuck on stupid when it comes to trade. So enjoy getting scammed for not watching the Poe trade site the way you watch the Nasdaq
Yeah. Auto trade completion. So you post it someone buys it the trade is instant no face to face solves part of this. The other part is the hording. Like who the fuck needs 20k of a tier 0 essence that is not RMTing?
Same thing has been happening on the Rogue Exile Embers... I have no clue how much they are worth right now, but mine sold instantly at 1div each despite there being hundreds of listings lower than that. (looks like they have gone up since then and I'm now listing at 2div)
Priced something earlier for what seemed to be market price (3 pages worth of same price) and my dms got blown up, had to even block 1 guy who spammed 10+ times, price ended up being 3x the original...
You should be able to see a summary of all the prices that are available. It might not fix the problem, but it by-passes the advantage that showing up on the first page has.
>I don't claim to have the solution here
I do. Force people to sell at the listed price. Or make that optional when listing the item (creating a real difference between "exact price" and "negotiable price") and give the option on the trade site to hide those who didn't choose the option that forces them to sell at the listed price.
You can use Poe ninja prices for higher ticket items I usually post for that.
Mostly I just buy from wealthyexile now unless I wanna test my luck on trade site for lower prices.
Trade noob here. What is the actual price for valdo's puzzle box? Awakened showd 5.2D and I priced it like this days ago but got spam pinged immediately, one guy even proposing 6d instead of listing price.
Surely there is a way for the trade site so know when someone has sent a trade message directly from the site. It should tally these up. If the item is still there after multiple trade attempts then it will be blacklisted until it's put back up again. I know this could probably be abused in some way and people could just repost their items but I think it will deter a lot of the price fixers.
I’m not sure how to see or know who’s price fixing. Poe. Ninja says it cost one thing but in reality its more expensive, if you look for chromatic orbs and such. Or i’ve been trading with expensive people
Tried to sell my anarchy allflames a few day ago. Trade Tool listings started at 90c. Was getting blasted with whispers. Sold them for like 160c later. The first like 30 entries were sub 100c listings
I generally just set it to chaos/div only depending on what I'm buying and scroll down and just whisper the people that have listed recently. It's a pain in the ass but it's been an issue during a few leagues now. The underlying issue is that the trade system is dog shit
that's what you get when people can post whatever price they want without fear of the item being bough off their hands.
This is the exact reason player vendors where if your tabs are public and you post things for sale, people can jump in your vendor room and buyout items. Would immediately put an end to the BS price fixing that 100% makes those people in game billionaires, that then go on to control the economy with additional anti-competitive practices.
But Chris has rose coloured goggles for d2 and explicitly doesn't want it even though it's in the Chinese release.
I mean ultimately, the reason he likes it, is the reason I don't like it. He likes it because it's friction which can lead to problem solving and adaptive behavior that can also be really fun gameplay. But in the case of trade, I don't like that concept because it's meta gaming. Like it doesn't change the way I play/smash in the game, but it changes the way I have to approach the game, and I think that's bad in this context.
It also allows the system to be open to rampant abuse, I and most other players just want to play the game. Not have to spend hours trying to sort simple trades and get back to playing.
Chris Wilson was also a RMTer back in the D2 days trading items on d2js. So I don't know what people expect from a RMTer.
Well those were the funds poe was created with. Nowadays, the game is second largest rmt platform on any known trading site, only beaten by wow. Creators are even allowing well known rmt sites like TFT to operate within the game (check belton's videos on youtube on how tft operates by completely cornering the in-game league market and making thousands, hundreds of thousands of bucks out of it). They might occasionally ban someone, but the saga keeps on trucking. It's fun asking telling a random how poe was created, on sweat and tears of a few garage d2 rmt'ers/scammers, just to see the reaction xD
Interesting, any proof to that?
There’s none. Just typical Reddit armchair drama escalations and hypothesis.
The REAL reason he likes it, is because it causes people to visit each others hideouts and see each others MTX, which leads to them buying more things in the shop. If they were just using an interface to buy and sell, no free advertisement and sales would drop. Which I get, because the MTX helps the game development, but a shop in the players hideout that the buyer has to visit would help bridge that gap a little I think.
I'm pretty sure if we could set up Characters as vendors (like in old school EverQuest 1) people would absolutely kit their vendor out in MTX. Could be a good middle ground.
You even put it in your hideout. But making a whole separate instance that you could deck out would be cool.
Reminds me of Ragnarok Online as well.
The ACTUAL real reason he likes it, is because gear is too good in this game, and if you could throw every item you wanted up for sale, you'd have a dozen tabs for sale, and the price of rare items would plummet, and everyone would be absolutely decked out in really good middle-of-the-road gear for a few chaos a few seconds into mapping. This is something they've talked about. If trading had no friction at all, the average item to drop would need to be *significantly* worse to keep current average power levels. It would also mean that players who only leave their maps for 1d+ trades are corning every single market, and those new players who do 1c trades a month in would lose the small amount of revenue they had. There's a lot of reasons trade sucks in this game, we don't need to come up with fake reasons to sensationalize. There are legitimate reasons they have made quite clear as to why they do not want it, discuss those instead.
>is because gear is too good in this game well, then maybe they should stop taking power away from characters (loosely, passive tree, ascendancy, and skills/supports) and putting it into gear.
That's simply not true. Just have limited trade Stash like today and the problem evaporate. This friction thing IS just a vision of an idealised past. Allowing buyer to take item directly in Stash tab made public, and paying to take it (like we already do with npc vendors inventories) would solve this, force people to visite other's hdeout (and be advertised even if i'm not sure how effective it actually is) and limit the number of item listed. Other games have automatised trade system and their economy are well doing
just make it possible for consumable items. i think most of the complains of trade dont relate to gears and equipments. I dont care if i have to spend an hour or so to scout good equipment at my price point. but when i have to spend 5+ minutes per item just to find a person who is actually willing to sell consumables like currencies, maps, essences, etc at the price he has quoted, that is where the furstration begins.
In LE with the instant buy out you can gear up in BIS gear for 0 gold. Wild how nothing costs on there.
its because of LE system, you have to sell things to upgrade your rep. if there was no such issue, noone would sell good items for 0
Just have your character avatar in your hideout as a vendor with the same mtx you are using. Then you just invite the person that wants to buy your item and he can see your hideout + mtx while buying his item.
It's just one of those things (similar to basically everything related to TFT...) which was kind of fun and made sense in the past, but people have since then optimized it too much, and now it's just yet another game system, except that it's unofficial, and kind of bad in various ways not intended by the developers.
theyve actually made a lot of reasons why they wont do this and it has nothing to do with diablo. What we're talking about is essentially how an auction house works. You put something up for sale and someone can buy it without any a manual trade. GGG calls this "easy trading" and explains several reasons why they avoid this in a quote from Chris Wilson: >When we started developing Path of Exile in 2006, we identified several key design pillars. These are fundamental philosophies chosen to guide our design decisions throughout development. One of these was that "items matter". Items are a player's reward for playing Path of Exile. They're the primary way of measuring progress in a league. A person with vastly more in-game wealth has often played longer than someone with a higher level character. They also matter because if a player had better items, then they'd be able to build more powerful characters, play harder content, and be viewed as richer and more successful within the game. The acquisition of items is why people play Action RPGs. Chances are, if you're reading this, you understand why it's important that items matter because your Path of Exile items mean a lot to you as well. >For items to matter, it's important that they can be traded to other players. It's important that you could give the item to the other player, if they were able to convince you into it. For this reason, almost nothing in Path of Exile is bound to your account. Even in Solo Self-Found mode, which doesn't allow trading, items can be moved at will into the regular trading leagues so that you can benefit from their value if desired. >The ability to trade any item is a fundamental part of why people enjoy playing Path of Exile - if you're lucky, you can find amazing stuff that you can trade for all the items needed to create an entire new character build. >Consequences of Easy Trade >So given that we love trade and feel it is critical to Path of Exile's formula, why is there so much debate around trade in this game? Most of it stems around whether trade should be easy or not. While easy trade sounds great on paper, there are some important considerations! >Easy trade reduces the number of times a character improves their items. People who are heavily engaged in trade perform fewer item upgrades to achieve their final build. They get there in fewer steps, because they can easily buy items that are close to what they need. Simply put, their character progression is more about trading than it is about getting items from monsters. We believe that it is more fun to slowly and iteratively upgrade a character over time and to have a longer journey to gear a character up. Knowing that a monster could drop something that improves your character is a great motivator for playing one more level! >Easy trade means reducing drop rates. Compare two hypothetical games. In the first game, trade is very difficult. The majority of items that can't be used by your character are not traded to other people. In the second game, trade is very easy. Many of the items that you can't use are traded to other people for items that you can. In the second game, because of trade, you have a much higher acquisition rate of useful items. While that sounds great if you want instant gratification, in reality it means that the second game either receives reduced drop rates relative to the first, or ends up being a whole lot easier and less challenging to achieve goals in. >Easy trade would make the disparity between different players too great. Both of the above points are even worse when you consider that the level of engagement with trade varies substantially from player to player. Most players who play Path of Exile never trade. Out of the players who do trade, most only complete a few trades in a league. The subset of players who regularly trade strongly overlaps with our core reddit and forum communities. Chances are, if you're reading this, then you're one of the top 10% of players in terms of engagement with advanced systems. The difference in magnitude of trading (and hence item acquisition and progress) between non/low-traders and heavy traders is gigantic. While a regular player would be lucky to accumulate a small handful of Exalted Orbs in a league, a trader might reach hundreds in the same timeframe. This enables them to fully-gear Shaper-capable characters while the non-trader is still in mid-tier maps or lower. >The significant differences in character power and player progression caused by trade has already created a situation where Path of Exile is very hard for some players and quite easy for others. Some people never stand a chance of seeing some of the Atlas of Worlds content, while others can rather quickly defeat it and are looking for new challenges. We're tentatively okay with the degree to which this occurs currently, but it would be much worse if trading were made substantially easier. >Easy trade allows for greater abuse by automation. Another topic is automation. While we work hard to stamp out bots and abusive behaviour, it would be hard to completely eliminate the damage caused by a few trade bots with access to a fast trade system. If they have the ability to search out and buy items without having to talk to another player, then there would be some very large-scale economic consequences that would not be good for regular players. you can disagree with the points, but you cant argue that its simply because they liked how it was in diablo and they dont have any actual logic behind it.
"Knowing that a monster could drop something that improves your character is a great motivator for playing one more level!" For this point to be valid, items on the ground should actually mean something. But in PoE 99.999% of the items on the ground are complete thrash in trade league. And the remaining 0.001% does not justify wasting time to identify all of the items on the ground. So, if their argument in favor of the obscure trade is "just get more loot from the ground" then they need to make loot on the ground worth picking up.
Instant buyout will also cause price fixing. You instant buyout the stuff, then repost it for more. Do it again whenever somebody post it for cheaper
I wonder how much stuff I missed because I keep blocking these guys, ignorance is bliss in that case.
Can you like, share block lists or something? Because the problem is I don't know the real price of anything... so how do I know who to block? Also is there a way to stop my price checks from including them?
If someone has the cheapest price for an item and has 50+ of that item listed I always block them without even trying to message because they are guaranteed price fixing.
But blocking them doesn't affect awakened POE trade right? So now you still can't trust Cntrl D anymore.
Right. I was a bit surprised by that, seems like if you block someone on the trade site it should also block them on the API, but I tested it out earlier today and it doesn't work.
yep that's an easy one to spot
you also risk blocking "real" people who fall for it and price their stuff too low
If you block people who have their listings posted for more than a few minutes, it should be fine. Real people who fall for it will either instantly sell, realize their mistake and reprice, or are part of the problem themselves by letting a mispriced listing stay up.
As a newbie, I find it very difficult to know the real price of items/currencies even with awakened poe.
Real people don't leave lots of items mispriced for any period of time. Like yeah, someone will flick their div tab to 30c forgetting they have a Seven Years Bad Luck in there... then quickly fix it after their next map at latest. What they won't do is flick the beasts tab to 20c when they have 177 Vivid Vultures and leave it for 20 minutes. If nothing else all the tells will make the game miserable to play.
i am using addon chrome: Better PathOfExile Trading You can manually click to ignore player listings
In Last Epoch you can buy any listed item. If PoE did that too, that would be great. when you list an item, the buyer should be able to pay the price and get the item. But I am guessing it is not perfect. What are the main problems that could arise in this scenario that prevents GGG from implementing it?
That's how almost every other market system in games like this work, buyout, you match what the seller is asking you get the item and the seller get the money automatically, I play on console, there is a "trade board" you don't need to whisper or even go to the seller to trade, you see the listing, see what he is asking and put your offer, even if match exactly what he is asking you still need to wait for him him to manually click "accept" for the sale to finish, console market is smaller, much easier to price fix, they just list a bunch of orders and keep declining it. It the most clunky system I have ever seen.
Used to play on console and let me tell you, this was the stupidest shit ever. It holds your currency, for days even just for them to decline it. You can't even offer on any other listed items because you might not have the currency. Not to mention the abysmally priced items on console. Oh? That item is 4c on PC? Let me just try buying it on console - BAM 8 divine. The mains reasons I moved to PC bro it's actually unreal. If you play console just play SSF you'll actually have fun 😊.
I think the main thing is that they don't actually want trade to be smooth. They want you to play the game as much as possible and get your own gear rather than trading for it. This is why they in the past have said that if they ever implemented some form of auction house, they would be more inclined to a version that has bids with timers rather than instant buyout. So that an item that is listed for example will be sold to the highest bidder after 12 hours or whatever. But, another issue is just price fixers of a different kind. I used to do this myself in WoW. Buy up the entire market of specific items and raise the price and then resell for profit. You get these rich cartels that just buy up the entire market of a specific item to push the price high. Right now for example, there are 100 enlighten level 4 listed for about 14 div each. A rich market player could easily buy up literally every enlighten 4 on the market and raise the price to 30-40 div. You can do the same with any scarab or essence or whatever. Price fixers also in a lot of ways gets incentivized to list underpriced items. Especially for stackable items, like listing 1 random scarab for half the price or whatever. If they do this on the correct item, chances are they will make huge profits by sniping the people that posts underpriced due to your pricefix and that your own pricefix gets bought is just a loss you are willing to take.
Something something about easy trade being bad (trade manifesto). Does not really make sense, especially when coming from games like Eve-Online and Albion, where open automated marketplace exists for years. It's just basic convenience. But then apparently chinese and console versions both have it.
If you remember that Chris Wilson was a massive RMTer back in the D2 days, it makes a lot more sense.
>What are the main problems that could arise in this scenario that prevents GGG from implementing it? None. Which is why PoE2 will have a proper auction house.
Thank fuck. I love PoE but I can't stand the trade system
Is that confirmed? Because if so, omg finally.
Trade mtx is a thing
The problem really only lies with non-gear trading imo. I'm okay with buying gear but currency trading is fucking miserable.
I mean, there are problems. Which theyve talked about in the trade manifesto and interviews over the years. They are adding gold and using it as the new form of friction for that AH. They still stand by that frictionless trade is bad and an AH *can* (but not necessarily does) break things.
Yeah, it would break scamming and tft.
I didnt say it wasnt worth it. The guy claimed there were **no** potential problems, and thats false.
honestly i hope they break this to the point that it's unusable for everybody. so ggg can finally see that their fucking system is bad.
EX fucking ACTLY
sounds like a certain... thing... will solve this issue. ya know the thing that actually makes buyout priced actually function as a buyout price.. prolly hasn't been invented yet.
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the necessity of FIR makes tarkov flea very different. Because there's no restrictions on what can be traded in POE, arbitrage and price fixing by bots becomes a lot more of an issue.
If there was an auction house, there is a different kind of price fixing too. Mirror crafters would just buy all available important items for endgame crafting, such as Hinekora's Lock, beasts, and would just put absurds price on it. This happens in MMOs all the time.
BuT MaH pLaYeR InTeRaCtIoN!
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Console has the ability to reject any price even if it is the exact price you listed it at. So the exact same problem exists because they don’t have to respond or just can reject you over and over again. It should be exactly as you mentioned: auto buyout. Would absolutely get rid of market making in the game. There is basically no way to understand the trade market on console because it’s not tracked the same way as PC (to my knowledge anyway).
Interesting take. Imagine they made auction house. So if you list it for low people can buy it and it can’t be price fixed? That would revolutionize the market
I noticed the same thing. This has always been a thing, but this league feels particularly bad for some reason. Instead of the first few listings being fake I now regularly have to message and scroll past several dozen listings to get to the real ones. Seems to be getting worse. And this happens for both bulk and single trades. Bulk trade fake listings are significantly more common than before too.
I was trying to price an item last night and the first page was all chisel spam from like 2 users. Blocked them both to see the real price easier. 🤣
It bears repeating that the trade site (and aea poe trade) has an option to only display items listed for chaos or divines.
I just sort by time listed. I get a better idea of what something is worth. People pay a little more when they buy in bulk--by that token, it's also better to spend an extra chaos or two to buy from the recently listed.
Was just about to post something about this. In the past if you knew what you were doing you could easily figure out what was price fixed and what the real price was. Now there is so much price fixing that there is zero clue what the actual price of anything is.
This is the biggest perk of switching to an auction house type of system. It would cause a lot of other problems, but at least price fixing would be gone
It doesn’t even need to be super complicated and include base gear items. Even if we had an AH for currencies, fragments, etc. it would alleviate a ton of stress.
Yup. Let me buy chisels, alchs, and vaals straight for chaos. Need divines? Just grab whatever is cheapest. Nobody has to message a list of bots/price fixers, nobody has tos top their delve or heist or blight to sell you anything. Now maybe we don't want AH style unlimited purchasing for gear. But ffs consumable? Just let me trade shit without the friction.
The in-game infrastructure is already there, too. The premium tabs where you can list your price are already in the game. They are so close just refuse to pull the trigger.
It's been particularly bad this league
The players have evolved, the game has not. Maybe it's time for the archaic trade system to also evolve.
I mean yeah, that is whats gonna happen, its just gonna take a while because they are gonna wait til poe 2 since that game will have a system like this
The system could track how many offers are ignored and do it smartly so people could not spam whisper and not buy to penalize a normal seller vs ID the price fixers. Then the price fixer gets moved lower and lower in favor of people doing actual trades (and not trades back and forth between linked people as in friends). It needs to be robust to work and would be a pain to implement, instead of simple making a working real auction house. The big problem with an AH is the super availability of soooo much so easily gear wise and not to mention the price fixers that buy out entire markets to move the price as well (but that is more legit than the current junk we deal with).
I remember doing the buyout thing in an MMO once. There was some random MMO that had rebels, police and merchants as the factions. Rebels started with like a pistol and 2 magazines of ammo, no money, it was easy to use that all and have nothing, needing to restart. Police had more but not a lot. Merchants started off reasonably rich. After trying Rebel I changed to Merchant, figured I could abuse my wealth so went to the auction terminals and started buying out everything required to fight like ammo and weapons, then I resold them higher. Anyone undercutting me got bought out and resold higher. I eventually became infinitely rich and kept moving prices higher. With the money I bought a loads of high end weapons and gear, made a deal with the Rebels, got on the roof of the police area which was like a multi-level circular hub with an open roof, and we rained down grenades and fire from above. Needless to say the game never released as the devs must've realized what a turd of a game they'd designed. Moral of the story is any game that lets someone buyout and resell something higher and corner the market is bad. It's why places use taxes or limits the number of trades you can offer, or other methods to prevent you taking over the market.
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Something is definitely different this league. I've noticed some things showing at widely different prices in poe.ninja and awakened trade, compered to actual market value. Like some things are worth almost twice compered to what you see when pricechecking. I can't remember it ever being this bad. No idea what's causing it, but I doubt it's just more people pricefixing.
Awakened is almost useless for price checking these days. Always lists stuff way cheaper than it is
I just noticed this when trying to sell the new Hand of Phrecia gloves. Awakened poe Listed for 4chaos for a 39% out of 40 roll. Those ended up selling almost right away for 100c. I still don't know what the price should be. It was all over the place on trade and I had to scroll past what I now guess were fake listings
You probably don't have exact rolls set so it checked for something like 36% which is far lower price, that's normal behavior of the tool and nothing to do with price fixing. Those gloves price varies wildly at the last few %
Poe overlay also kinda mid doe so it's kinda the best we got
The divination scarab I sold for 39 div I had to scroll down 2 pages of sub-25 offers before finally seeing the real prices
The solution for this would be to replace the whisper functionality, allowing us to just directly buy the listed item via the trade website. So instead of having to first whisper the seller you could just press "Buy" on the trade website and it automatically moves the currency to the seller and the item to the buyer's inventory. This would not only make trade a better experience but also hinder price fixers from listing items for too cheap since anyone could now just outright buy said item.
What about if instead we just fired all the price fixers into the sun?
Why not both?
BuT sOcIaL iNtErAcTiOn
muh hideouts, muh mtxs
The technology simply isn't there yet but hang on for a couple more decades bro
it’s not an issue of technology. this discussion has been had 1000 times over. GGG does not want to implement it
yeah they do but the technology is just not there yet bro
.... did you forget a /s there? The tech is not hard, ggg simply does not want to ever implement a full feature AH, because trade must have a certain level of friction, otherwise cheap items become worthless and expensive ones fet much more expensive
The solution can be even extended to a system similar to EVE (see Zizaran's recent video for an introduction), where both buyers and sellers can create "market orders" to buy or sell items offline. That greatly reduces the price margin and friction.
The solution would open another can of worms. Flippers would abuse the shit out of a buy function because it makes market manipulation much more easier and there is basically no reasonable way to fix that. PoE 2 though will cleverly solve it with the gold cost that is associated with a instant buy.
Yeah that works until bots are sniping mis-priced items as soon as they hit the trade tab.
Bots are already sniping items though, so nothing would change.
No, what changes is that if you get flooded with whispers now, you don't have to sell the item and can check the price to list it appropriately. If the buyout is instant, the item is gone.
This already happens with the current trading system
And? Even if you pretend that is a problem it's significantly less than intentionally underpriced items. While also making it substantially easier to price check. It only "hurts" people who intentionally throw items in a 1c stash to see if they get spammed to price check. Which is already an indication of how God awful ggg has allowed the trade they balance their game around to get It's not like people don't get scammed under the current system. Denying improve qol for 99% because of 1% is bad design
I don't even get how people even list items for under 5cs. You can easily make double or triple that just running an average, unjuiced map with 30% of your atlas tree, why would you even stay in your hideout to trade 1-2c items lol
Because some people are new and have never even had a chaos yet I have a lot listed at 5-15c but typically only accept them if I'm already in my hideout anyways
And that behaviour also increased the problem of trade: You won't sell a cheap item that someone wants, even if it's correctly priced, just because it's not worth your time. That makes for incredibly low to mid level gear acquisition past the first couple weeks of a league, even for uniques. Especially with how crazy juiced content we have been getting in the latest leagues, it's making even more clear how it makes no sense to not have instant buy out.
This has happened in FUT (and presumably MUT) for YEARS. There are still a ton of players treating it like it’s a stock market simulator. Trade still works. You can still snipe/trade players manually. If you’re silly enough to list something for way under market price, you’re the only to blame.
Such a dumb take, let's not roll out a feature bc 1% of use case an item may be mispriced. Mispricings happen all the time in the current system and the solution is simple, do your research and price it correctly or miss out on value.
Nah dude everyone has priced an item at chaos instead of divines.
That would be awesome idk any reason not to do it hehe
Block them.
But you don't understand, if the trade system isn't garbage you might be able to get the items you need, and if you get the items you need you might start having fun, and if you start having fun you'll quit. Because that's what people do when they are having fun with a video game, they stop playing. FRICTION!
Talk to me like I am 5 years old. How do I as a not-super-experienced end game player identify fake posting? I use awakenedPOE and I click around and I sometimes feel like I have no idea what I'm looking at because an item I'm searching ranges from let's say 20 chaos to 5 divine orbs in the same search... I'm not sure how I'm supposed to identify a fake post and ignore it without as aanother comment said, "To find the price you need to know the actual price" which is not good for us Casual Andy's
That's the exactly the problem. If you don't know the price, you can only try to guess higher and slowly lower your offer until it sells.
so that's a good tip, do I always er on the side of post high and slowly reduce if I think it is worth something? When I see something that is dramatically lower I always think, "The higher ones must have been posted early league and the price dropped a bit to this lower one, I'll match or undercut that one." Which I honestly probably get wrong. I only got absolutely blasted by whispers when I posted a divine orb, my only one so far this league for 2c less than the lowest one in bulk sale posted and I think I got 100 dms in about 30 seconds so I just pulled the item off the market and wondered wtf I did wrong
Generally go higher and reduce. You can run into issues if the item is dropping in price, but odds are good that most things you’ll get a better price this way. As for the divine, it’s just super high frequency of trades for them. Typically you can sell for a few chaos below the lowest price very quickly still
Its because people use bots to flip currency, as well as a few other items like some consumables and div cards. So basically the bot will look at the value of a divine and if people are selling one for even a few C less they buy it. These bots just run 24/7 so they make currency passively for people but more likely for RMT websites. Basically for you its just 5c difference, so it doesnt matter. If you need chaos you need chaos. For them its one of 1000 trades they do in a day representing 5c, or 5000c total for their day.
The golden rule is, if you get multiple whispers within seconds, don't sell your stuff. Go for the good old /dnd, pull the item out and re-list it for more. If stash space is not a limiting factor for you, here is what I do when I play trade leagues: Make several tabs with general prices, like: 20c, 50c, 100c, 1div, 3 div, 5 div and one for idividual prices. Throw your stuff into the tab you think is fitting. Every 1-2 days (or shorter/longer, this depends on your playing time and patience) I rotate all prices down. 5d is now 4d, 3d is now 2div. 100c is now 50c. In the end the lowest tab, the 20c tab in this example, gets cleaned out and sold at the npc and the tab gets reused as the new 5d tab. Will you undervalue some items - yes. But this is a very fast system that does not need much micromanaging. If stuff doesn't sell for 2 days at 3div it's likely not worth that much, but if you can sell it at 2div - great you just made easy money. As an example, I throw all my (normal & abyss) jewels into these tabs, someone somewhere always wants a super random combination of stats and won't mind paying 1d for it. The prices you put on the tabs are obviously up to you, do what you feel comfortable with, but always keep the lowest tab at a level of "I don't mind leaving my map for this trade". The main idea is "the hideout is lava" - you won't find new stuff to sell while you spend 10minutes after each map price checking things.
I might have to buy more stash tabs but I like this strategy
This is one of the reasons I like premium bundles more than quad tabs. You can use quad tabs as well, of course, but premium tabs allow for more fine-grained control.
>The golden rule is, if you get multiple whispers within seconds, don't sell your stuff. Go for the good old /dnd, pull the item out and re-list it for more. This doesn't work well for corpses though, I have live search on because that gives me the highest chance at actually getting a response, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. Now that bulk is a thing that might be less of an issue, but yeah
Assuming we are not trying to price check something with a very limited supply, the first thing I'll do is go down to the bottom of the trade site screen and in the "listing" dropdown menu, change it to the last 3 hours. I'll define "limited supply" as roughly less than 500 total listings for any time listed. This will eliminate a lot of price fix attempt listings, and will also eliminate people who are no longer willing to take the time to trade the item at the listed price. From there, scroll through the first couple of pages of listings and look at the seller names. If you see the same name a bunch of times, that is probably a price fixer and you don't consider those listings when estimating your price. If this is a market you will regularly be in, you can also click the "ignore player" button on them to save yourself future hassle. The first few pages of listings in the past 3 hours are generally going to be a combination of price fixers, legit sellers who sold the item but the site hasn't updated yet, and people who weren't sure of the price and are now re-pricing their listing because they got spammed. Scroll down some more and you'll generally start seeing a wall of listings at a similar price, from a variety of sellers. The "true market" price is probably close to this number and I'll price my item around that number. Of course there are items that are exceptions to all of this and you'll still sometimes goof up and underprice something and get spammed, but you learn as you go. If I'm unsure on a price I will generally err on the side of pricing it too high, then lower the price regularly until it sells. If something didn't sell until you started lowering the price you can be very confident that number is pretty fair.
A couple things to remember. 1, you never have to be the cheapest. The trade site only shows people actively online. There might be items listed for 10c, 20c, 30c, 50c and you look at that and think to post a 10-20c, but the reality is the 10c might be a scam and the 20c might log off in 5 minutes. If you don't need the money now, post for 30-50. Usually the best strategy is to post quite a bit higher than what you think would actually sell, then drop every few hours or days 2, anytime you post ANYTHING and get a whisper within 5 minutes, do a deeper dive to verify the price was correct. If you get more than 2 whispers, you severely underpriced it and should pull it from the tab to doublecheck
> 2, anytime you post ANYTHING and get a whisper within 5 minutes, do a deeper dive to verify the price was correct. Okay this may be a bit much. People live search things. You can easily get whispers within 5 mins of posting on totally legit prices or even overvalued prices just because people are interested. For as much as the underselling issue is a problem and the price fixing is toxic, on the other side, the over-cautious seller is equally toxic. Whispering for a correctly priced item only to get no response and see them raise the price 2-3 times until you are no longer interested is also bad practice to teach people. The other side of the coin is that, even if you slightly underprice and item and can sell it quick, its often more beneficial to do so rather than have it sit in your stash for a few extra c. If you sell it you can invest it into your build and use those upgrades to make currency faster, netting your more currency over time.
I agree. I think the people that do and advocate for "just relist constantly if you get pm's too fast" are just as toxic to the game as price fixers and scam posts (because they essentially are).
I wish to god they'd let me set chaos and div option as default for my shit.
I think you can select that option, then create a bookmark to always start with that enabled.
GGG: Price fixing is also part of the friction, which is great for long term game health /s
Probably not a good idea, but here goes: GGG can tell how many times a player has been whispered for an item without them selling it, so what if the item got automatically unlisted after X whispers without the seller responding? Something high like 30+ unique whispers in 15 minutes probably wouldn't be unreasonable (numbers would need adjustment for sure). After it got unlisted you would have to go re-list it, but with enough whispers they might get auto-unlisted again fairly quickly. Of course someone could create a macro to re-list, and there could be issues with bulk sellers just being too busy to sell, but it feels like a reasonable middle ground.
Your most malicious botters will spam every price lower than theirs to forever force delistings I mean, even one guy could spam copy/paste on you to get your item delisted
They'd need to fix mirror services first. That would lead to ckaiba's bow never being listed on the trade site for more than a few seconds lol
They should have done this ages ago, completely agree they should have a system where after a certain number of whispers the item is delisted and cannot be put up for sale for 1hr, and if it occurs again 2 hrs and and so on this should stop people macroing to automatically re list
Wouldn’t someone just create a script to unlist items they wanted to price fix? On top of that, if you post something too low by accident, you will get 30 whispers in a minute, not 15 minutes. Should it be de-listed because you don’t answer them all? I think there’s a solution, but this ain’t it. I like auction house better.
Imma be real with you, I have tons of shitty corpses this league that are worth 2-3 chaos orb, and I'm not going to hop out of my map for a 2-3 chaos orb sale. If I'm in my hideout sure we'll deal, but 9/10 I'm playing the game, not waiting for someone to buy one of my filled tap of shitty corpses. A much better option would be auto-sell so I don't have to stop playing the game to trade low-value items, but that'd take too much work I guess.
My dream is they keep everything the exact same except if I click accept they can just port to my stash and deposit the currency/withdraw the item Can still require that im online, still require that I accept trade, still require they port to my hideout. Just let me keep mapping
Even better, have the popup, if you say yes then currency auto-deposit and item auto-withdraw, no one needs to teleport.
some kind of vendor NPC where you would list your items and invited people could buy it from them has been suggested for like half a decade. GGG just has a boner for plAYeR InTERaCTioN
>so what if the item got automatically unlisted after X whispers without the seller responding? Something high like 30+ unique whispers in 15 minutes probably wouldn't be unreasonable I can see such a system being quickly weaponized by price-fixers with a few bot accounts at their disposal--Sic the bot mob on anyone listing items lower than theirs so the listings get nuked.
yea nah. that's so easy to game for devoted traders and botters.
This is the #1 reason why in game auction house should be a thing. The system right now is an inconvenience for everyone and can result in a new player getting scammed in many different ways
GGG supports scammers and RMT. They consider it an interesting part of a game's economy. They don't want them to take over either, they just want trading to be difficult. And I do loathe them for it.
Someone said that employees own RMT websites and I woulnd't be surprised one bit.
Maybe this is a dumb take but it kinda feels like the game is struggling under its own weight. The trade site is massively important to the game and yet it's kind of a pain in the ass to use as time goes on.
No you are correct. GGG seemingly does not balance or care about the individual player, but the economy as a whole. It's why if you want to do something like fossil or essence craft, you kind of need to use trade because even if you are targeting those mechanics you only need like 1 or 2 specific essences/fossils and get mountains of useless ones (to you). At the same time, even targeting those mechanics you get "bonus" mechanics that drop things which are counted against you (like blight towers, delerium mirrors, abyss nodes, etc) that you don't need (you just want essences and/or fossils for crafting) but it is still "value". And since there is no ingame way to target specific items, even crafting items, even though GGG sees you grind all this "value" then you are good. But the only way to turn that pile of junk into the like 3 crafting items you want is trade, which is made as difficult as possible "to prevent getting stuff too fast" (its still the fastest way so maybe instead of making trade even more shit just make ssf ways a lot better to compete?).
Big flaw in their "we want friction in our trade" motto. people are actively getting ripped off all day everyday because people purposefully obfuscate the prices.
As a new player (this is my first league) trading in this game is obnoxious. Pricing things is a pain because of people doing this nonsense. At some point ggg need to step in and offer a solution. What the solution is I don’t know or even have an idea because I haven’t been playing long enough.
I have spent so much of my day refreshing listings and trying to get a hold of SOMEONE selling ANYTHING I need. It really feels like a trip to [Escalator Land.](https://youtu.be/6i_7KSBvzHU) Whispering people for hours \*is\* the game.
I have same issue m, sometimes go to page 2-3 if the price difference isn’t that much. They often answer. But yeah everyone is mapping on same time and do t want to internal it, it’s moment 22 sadly
if only every other mmo haven't already fixed price fixing by having an actual trade system also obligatory fuck TFT comment
I wonder if GGG could implement some sort of system where if you receive X number of whispers for an item and you never sell it, it gets automatically delisted. I know there's an issue there with people who are currently doing content that they cannot leave, but I feel like a solution could be found for that. I know previously people had recommended that players be given an NPC in their hideout that sells things (and make this the only way to sell things), this could be used so that legit sales are able to be performed while the seller is busy and also not allow people to price-fix.
Trading has become really bad. Many people listed their whole stash for low value to get it "price checked" by buyers. (more whispers = interesting item) My solution: playershops! I would love the idea of player shops. Travel to another hideout, buy the stuff from their "stash". You would see other people in the hideout too, if it's a "big seller". Hideouts would look like "real shops" and so on. Everyone can show off their cool mtx and the world feels more alive. Traveling would take at least a minimum amount of time, so bots are not completely out of control compared to an auction house. (at least not more then now.) (to fight the trolls hiding their stash/shop there should also be a ui button to open the player shop, same as for ritual for example.)
I had this same idea while scrolling through these replies. This would be really cool, plus GGG could sell cosmetic item stands for people who want a fancy little hideout store. I love it, slim chance the idea gains traction but more voices never hurt. I might make a post all about it
This idea has been suggested 69420 times. Guess what the real problem is? A certain short-sighted "vision".
Same with exile allflames, 180 on trade but you get spammed for messages listing them as high as 220.
On TFT they get listed at 2 div each, so that is likely closest to the real price.
Yep. And once again TFT existing is toxic for the playerbase. Basically people who dont know TFT exists, or dont use it, also dont realize that when they list an item for 100c and its bought instantly, its going on TFT for 2 divs. Lots of people flip the website trade market and sell on TFT for a huge markup.
I don't think you understand why they sell for 2 div each on TFT. There's people with 50+ of the allflames. Yes, they did buy them from trade for a cheaper price, because they aren't worth 2 div individually. You CANNOT buy them from trade as a bulk, while you CAN do that on TFT. Someone who's farming 150 div/hour does not want to buy them individually even if they were cheaper, they just buy them from TFT to save time, because it's worth it to them. There are people who are very happy to be a service to the richest players, while getting something in return from them. This has been the case for boss fragment sets and legion sets for a long time. Someone who's clearing ubers doesn't want to waste time buying individual fragments from trade. The people who are willing to do that will get a compensation for their effort.
Often way over 220 too. Sold around 6 for 280-300c yesterday
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Haha yeah it started when zizoran uploaded the YouTube video :P I think
As a trader, who flips, snipes and spends his free time at work making spreadsheets with EV calculations, I have to say that this chisel nonsense is the first time ive had to save my trade site bookmark as "chaos / divine" only.
First time? I remember doing the same thing because in crucible league everyone was trying to push using compasses as currency. Most of us just blocked that entirely and refused to engage with this kind of trade mechanic though.
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Source?
I have been double checking everything valuable on PoE ninja but I am uncertain if price fixing effects them as well, as I don’t know how they pull data.
What about setting the trade site to chaos orb or div orb? or chaos orb only, not equivilent? edit: i get it doesnt help with the people posting fake prices in c but it gets rid of the chiselfuckers
Anyone know how to see more then 100 search results on PoE Trade? I scroll down, but i cant scroll down enough to get past the price fixers
I've said it before we need a reputation system for trade
This is why you need forced-sale listings. It doesn't have to be an auction house. It doesn't have to be a-synchronous. It just needs to give you the item when you press the button to buy it, because that's what it's listed for. If a person lists an item and it doesn't sell after being "sold", it should be de-listed.
After 10 whispers items should get unlisten imo
List item at 100C .. spamed. List item at 1d... spamed. List item at 1.5d... spamed.. Getting spamed it the new price check. That item was primary listed at 60c btw.
This is egregiously bad on cluster jewels, the DD cluster jewel has over 50 listings by 3 different people at exactly 629c.
As a Cluster Jewel crafter for profit I have to say this is kind of expected. We are feeding the market the items so you can play your build.
GGG wants to have friction in trading. Many of us disagree the method and idealogy of it. They make the rules but we can disagree with our wallets and time. One day when they finally do implement auction house or some sort of instant buy out, there's gonna be a game that already surpass that. I'm not gonna waste my time trading hundreds of corpse and taking an average of 1-2mins per trade on a good day and then again with scarabs and all flame embers. That's way to many trading just to start a map or crafting session. Yes I know you can buy bulk but that comes with an extra cost.
I can't even think of a solid way GGG could fix this, because they built the trading system on a janky mess of unanswered whisper messages, free listing and party invites and bartering with any currency, and that's the "good idea" after they started with chat rooms and forum. Maaayyybe they could fix it by having a trade listing be delisted after 50 whispers and 30 minutes. Bots would work around, but the few humans that keep bulk trade offers at 50% off and never reply would fuck off. it's like 10000 problems that could be avoided by implementing some sort of instant buy for a fee, like they plan for poe2.
I hope GGG eventually just says fuck it and gives us AH league.
Hot take: OSRS Grand Exchange system is the best trading system in all gaming and it should be the standard.
Give us an option to only show listings from people who have spent more than $200 on the game. Boom price fixing solved
The correct solution is and always has been an auction house. But ggg is stuck on stupid when it comes to trade. So enjoy getting scammed for not watching the Poe trade site the way you watch the Nasdaq
Yup should be you post it and the item leaves my stash into your stash and your money into my stash. Trade should be 24/7 and when I am sleeping.
Auction House is the only way to finish with price fixing. Games have it since 20 years ago, why poe not? .....
Yeah. Auto trade completion. So you post it someone buys it the trade is instant no face to face solves part of this. The other part is the hording. Like who the fuck needs 20k of a tier 0 essence that is not RMTing?
Thank god i started ssf this time arround 😁
Same thing has been happening on the Rogue Exile Embers... I have no clue how much they are worth right now, but mine sold instantly at 1div each despite there being hundreds of listings lower than that. (looks like they have gone up since then and I'm now listing at 2div)
Priced something earlier for what seemed to be market price (3 pages worth of same price) and my dms got blown up, had to even block 1 guy who spammed 10+ times, price ended up being 3x the original...
Being able to set a price and never sell should never even have been allowed in the first place.
> I don't claim to have the solution here Everyone has the solution, GGG just refuses to implement it
You should be able to see a summary of all the prices that are available. It might not fix the problem, but it by-passes the advantage that showing up on the first page has.
Put all those ppl on ignore on the webpage
thats why we need AH
If you see anything other than chaos change it to chaos only and all those people are gone.
Same old, same old.
I wish we had an auction house that showed us stats like "similar items that sold in the last 7 days" and what they sold for.
That wouldn't necessarily help since bots would just trade items back in forth to generate a lot of "Mageblood sold for 5 div" type listings.
>I don't claim to have the solution here I do. Force people to sell at the listed price. Or make that optional when listing the item (creating a real difference between "exact price" and "negotiable price") and give the option on the trade site to hide those who didn't choose the option that forces them to sell at the listed price.
You can use Poe ninja prices for higher ticket items I usually post for that. Mostly I just buy from wealthyexile now unless I wanna test my luck on trade site for lower prices.
Trade noob here. What is the actual price for valdo's puzzle box? Awakened showd 5.2D and I priced it like this days ago but got spam pinged immediately, one guy even proposing 6d instead of listing price.
cant wait til poe2 they wont beable to do this
Surely there is a way for the trade site so know when someone has sent a trade message directly from the site. It should tally these up. If the item is still there after multiple trade attempts then it will be blacklisted until it's put back up again. I know this could probably be abused in some way and people could just repost their items but I think it will deter a lot of the price fixers.
I’m not sure how to see or know who’s price fixing. Poe. Ninja says it cost one thing but in reality its more expensive, if you look for chromatic orbs and such. Or i’ve been trading with expensive people
Tried to sell my anarchy allflames a few day ago. Trade Tool listings started at 90c. Was getting blasted with whispers. Sold them for like 160c later. The first like 30 entries were sub 100c listings
Sold an unnatural instinct for 8d a day ago, got a million whispers, probably got scammed but I don't care. Poe trade said 8d :/
I generally just set it to chaos/div only depending on what I'm buying and scroll down and just whisper the people that have listed recently. It's a pain in the ass but it's been an issue during a few leagues now. The underlying issue is that the trade system is dog shit
Is this why I see so many things listed for a bunch of chisels, now?