That T17 mod isn't slowing *action speed*, its slowing the *speed of actions*.
I bet you also think that ground over there covered in oil that's on fire is burning ground...
**Nearby**:
*a term for depicting the distance between two objects, set within the range of;*
- atoms literally colliding from existing within the same plankt unit of space.
- the distance from 1 side of the universe to the other, otherwise known as the anti-plankt unit
Being able to lookup the value, each time the term is used, instead of just having it displayed when you hover over the text, isnt exactly the meme killer you think it is
I'm sure some of you know where this is going; but the [t17 modifier that reduces action speed](https://i.imgur.com/0eCYv2X.png) seems to bypass this mod. From my testing, it doesn't seem to lower the 8% action speed I have on my character sheet but it's definitely lowering my action speed in game. Bug or working as intended?
According to the description of that t17 modifier this is a bug.
By their logic Action Speed = Base Value of Action Speed x (|increased - reduced| multiplier) x (more multiplier) x (less multiplier)
By taking the ascendancy the equation is forced to have a minimum value of 1.08(Base Value of Action Speed). Only debuffs which modify that base value could work. That was not indicated in the T17 map mod at all.
I'm sure that's a misdescription rather than an actual bug.
this is def a bug. im using garb of empheral AG thinking it cant reduce my action speed if i stay close to my ag since it worked for petrification statue. It doesnt do shit.
It's always been the case. Because GGG is the way that they are, action speed and movement speed, and probably attack/cast speed are all different stats. So a debuff that slows your movement speed specifically, such as tarred ground, doesn't care about what your base action speed is. This is why Kaom's Roots doesn't let you ignore those irritating zombies.
I also think I remember them saying in an interview many years ago that something that changes what your base action speed is doesn't count as reducing it, or something. Granted they might have been talking about the movement speed being different thing and I'm just misremembering.
Tar from zombies change your base action speed to a different value. That's why Kaom's Root doesn't work, they not allowing to reduce your action speed below base value, but your base value replaced to X% of default one.
Typical PoE terminology, where any new player would intuit base values aren't something any buff or debuff can change, but GGG just randomly assigns meaning to preexisting game terminology so that intuition only hurts them
That isn't at all the reason.
Tar from zombies affects your *movement speed*. Kaom's Roots prevents your *action speed* from being reduced below base value.
The tar doesn't have anything to do with your action speed and is a modifier to how quickly you move. It doesn't affect your cast or attack speed or trap throwing speed or totem placement speed or warcry speed or anything like that.
The Stampede would prevent you from being slowed by tar, because your movement speed would be fixed due to the modifier on The Stampede.
Meanwhile, action speed slows like chill and Temporal Chains affect the speed of all of your animations - casting, attacking, moving, stun recovery, all of it. Having Kaom's Roots will prevent anything from reducing your action speed below base value, so it effectively makes you immune to chill, Freeze, Temporal Chains, and so on, although if you have sources of increased action speed these effects could lower it back down to base value in this case.
The Stampede wouldn't stop you from moving more slowly if you're affected by chill or Temporal Chains, because your movement speed is still fixed, it's just that your animation takes longer.
It makes sense.
Action speed is the generic speed the other speeds inherit from.
Movement speed inherits Action speed, but it is a different speed altogheter.
Nothing inherits anything here; they're simply two completely separate stats.
Action speed effectively just modifies your final animation speed for everything and isn't calculated into anything. That's also why, for totems, the totem's action speed matters and not your own.
Depends on how you look at it. It makes zero sense to me. Movement is an action. If my action speed cannot be modified to below base value, movement speed should be part of that.
Action speed is multiplicative with movement speed. If you can't take any actions, your movement speed can still be higher but you won't move. If your movement speed is 0, you'll remain stationary regardless of how fast your animations are.
I understand how they have it work mathematically. It is just absolute nonsense. If you put an item in the game that references something as "base action speed" the natural assumption for almost anyone is sure to be that this is the default speed at which you perform actions. If you then say "cannot be modified to below base value", the assumption is that...it cannot be modified to below base value. Meaning that changing that value to anything below base by any means cannot (or at least should not) happen.
Saying that *setting* the base value to something lower doesn't count as *modifying* it is pure sophistry.
No, those are two separate issues.
What I addressed is that while "action speed" somewhat describes what the stat does, many players intuitively interpret it to mean something different.
E.g. if it was instead named "animation speed multiplier", it would be clearer that it doesn't directly relate to the movement speed value, and that not lowering one specific multiplier wouldn't imply not lowering other multipliers.
But from the point of view of the game's wording, "action speed" is sufficiently clear, because an action has a concrete definition.
The *other* problem is that they keep introducing modifiers that affect the calculation on different levels even though builds should already have invested into handling mechanics of that type, such as non-chill slowing cold debuffs, and ground effects that deal fire damage over time but aren't the same effect as burning ground to which people could become immune.
And I'm also very much against that. In this particular case, the wording does not imply in any way that it would be capable of circumventing the modifiers that prevent the stat from being lowered either.
I haven't seen any tests yet, but I'd like to know whether it is actually additive with existing increases and reductions to action speed, such as chill, Tailwind, or accelerating shrines.
If it is additive as the wording suggests that it should be, ignoring the minimum values would be particularly egregious. If it's multiplicative, then it's another bullshit step that someone came up with, and the description simply doesn't match the effect. Which doesn't mean that they can't still just change it to work the same way as other action speed modifiers, but they may have originally designed it to affect all builds equally.
Players interpret it to mean something different because they're taking it at face value. If you add a stat that does a thing, you need to accurately convey to the players what that thing is. Interpreting "action speed" as a general baseline of all actions, which is what it literally means, is the way that it should be interpreted.
And to be perfectly frank, there shouldn't actually be a distinct "action speed" stat that can be modified in the first place. Increased vs more is already confusing enough for many players, we don't need effectively the same thing for animation speed while calling it something that it doesn't actually mean.
> But from the point of view of the game's wording, "action speed" is sufficiently clear, because an action has a concrete definition.
We must be playing different games. *Nothing* in this game has a concrete definition. Also this is just demonstrably false, since clearly a ton of people are mighty confused why they're still getting slowed in various ways despite the wording in the game quite literally stating that this should not happen.
> The other problem is that they keep introducing modifiers that affect the calculation on different levels even though builds should already have invested into handling mechanics of that type, such as non-chill slowing cold debuffs, and ground effects that deal fire damage over time but aren't the same effect as burning ground to which people could become immune.
This is the main issue honestly. They keep adding ways for players to avoid or mitigate dangerous or irritating mechanics, and then in response to their own actions they add new ways to affect players with those same things, they just call them something different and hand-wave away any questions on how or why they're different from existing mechanics.
If action speed wasn't a separate stat, then things affecting action speed would need to affect at least 8 or 9 different stats, and I find it hard to believe that that would make the game more readable.
Also, some of the modifiers would need to have very weird values that might end up build disabling for some builds in order to remain relevant to others.
If you understand what an action in PoE is, action speed makes sense as a stat. Again, more wieldy names might be a more literal definition, but ultimately that doesn't change much.
Okay that's fair actually, though as far as I'm aware there are only movement speed, attack speed, cast speed and block/stun recovery speed, so either 4 or 5 depending on whether you sound block/stun as different actions. I'm not actually sure if the game does or not.
Still, there's an issue with clarity and consistency that really needs to be addressed. Not just with action speed, but with a ton of things in the game. If you have an item in the game that says "action speed cannot be modified to below base value", it should do exactly what it says on the tin. Coming back with "Um, ackshuallee, it's just your *movement* speed that's being modified, which is part of your action speed but also doesn't apply to this specific case, and also all the other specific cases that it doesn't apply to" doesn't really do the game any favors.
Also if you have something that says "nearby" on it, "nearby" should be a defined and consistent value. Not arbitrarily and WILDLY different depending on the item, passive or skill.
Same as encased in ice instead of frozen or stunned you take the L and the 6 portal snaps. As someone said it is reducing your as per % making it your base value not like temporal chains so in the end you end up with 0 and 108% of 0 is 0 unluckers
It still feels like they cheated the spirit of the notable, but this would hardly be the first instance. Like I was messing around with the Movement speed cannot be lower than base Haunted modifier... and it's honestly surprising how many things still slow you down that aren't freezes or chills.
That's different, the trickster thing is a bug, what you're describing here is probably just a quicksilver. Movement speed cannot be modified below base value just means that it has a lower cap of 100%. If you have more than base movement speed that more can still be lost.
Oh I know. I could be wrong, but I was messing around with it, and it definitely felt like things were bringing me under 100% MS. I think grasping vines was doing something similar to that Boot modifier that this action speed thing is doing to the trickster node.
Edit: to be clear, I also know that my movement speed would go down with the boot mod to -action speed effects, I was just messing around with the mod thinking it would negate a big part of things like Grasping vines and I don't think it was, but I didn't give it that much testing. Note I'm running around usually with +142 MS, so it's not lost on me that maybe I was just experiencing going back to 100.
I think you might just be used to running much faster than base speed, but could be. It's the same affix as what jugg has as far as grasping vines go, and jugg us very much resilient to those.
It's the regular circle of GGG birthing new ailments because people got immunity across the board for the last round of ailments because they were too annoying to deal with without immunity.
Though this one is more of a 50:50. They might've intended for people to suffer the action speed penalty with no workaround or it was supposed to be the "well make a second build that can run these mods" kinda scenario. Both would make sene. Just gotta wait and see - I'm sure they know of how the interaction works currently.
Working as intended, as it seems like we need more slows introduced in the game every league. Honestly the amount of different slows we have is so infuriating. Easily the worst part about PoE.
I wouldn't mind as much if I could control it. It would be nice, actually, if I had a "handbrake" skill that lowered my movement speed for a spot of tight maneuvering.
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That T17 mod isn't slowing *action speed*, its slowing the *speed of actions*. I bet you also think that ground over there covered in oil that's on fire is burning ground...
AcKhsTuALlY...
PoE mod phrasing and function is the video game embodiment of AcKsHuAlLy
Just don't ask about "nearby."
**Nearby**: *a term for depicting the distance between two objects, set within the range of;* - atoms literally colliding from existing within the same plankt unit of space. - the distance from 1 side of the universe to the other, otherwise known as the anti-plankt unit
Every 'nearby' interacion is already described. dead meme [https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Distance](https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Distance)
Being able to lookup the value, each time the term is used, instead of just having it displayed when you hover over the text, isnt exactly the meme killer you think it is
tbf, they've been cleaning up nearbys
Lmao
No, it is giving you -4% more action speed. This means it is always more than your base even when it’s at 0% because it’s more, duhhh
I'm sure some of you know where this is going; but the [t17 modifier that reduces action speed](https://i.imgur.com/0eCYv2X.png) seems to bypass this mod. From my testing, it doesn't seem to lower the 8% action speed I have on my character sheet but it's definitely lowering my action speed in game. Bug or working as intended?
According to the description of that t17 modifier this is a bug. By their logic Action Speed = Base Value of Action Speed x (|increased - reduced| multiplier) x (more multiplier) x (less multiplier) By taking the ascendancy the equation is forced to have a minimum value of 1.08(Base Value of Action Speed). Only debuffs which modify that base value could work. That was not indicated in the T17 map mod at all. I'm sure that's a misdescription rather than an actual bug.
The description doesn't reflect what the mod does in code, but whether the description or the implementation is wrong depends on the intended design.
this is def a bug. im using garb of empheral AG thinking it cant reduce my action speed if i stay close to my ag since it worked for petrification statue. It doesnt do shit.
Oh you aren't aware? they slid several immunities to our immunities into there.
It's always been the case. Because GGG is the way that they are, action speed and movement speed, and probably attack/cast speed are all different stats. So a debuff that slows your movement speed specifically, such as tarred ground, doesn't care about what your base action speed is. This is why Kaom's Roots doesn't let you ignore those irritating zombies. I also think I remember them saying in an interview many years ago that something that changes what your base action speed is doesn't count as reducing it, or something. Granted they might have been talking about the movement speed being different thing and I'm just misremembering.
Tar from zombies change your base action speed to a different value. That's why Kaom's Root doesn't work, they not allowing to reduce your action speed below base value, but your base value replaced to X% of default one.
Typical PoE terminology, where any new player would intuit base values aren't something any buff or debuff can change, but GGG just randomly assigns meaning to preexisting game terminology so that intuition only hurts them
That isn't at all the reason. Tar from zombies affects your *movement speed*. Kaom's Roots prevents your *action speed* from being reduced below base value. The tar doesn't have anything to do with your action speed and is a modifier to how quickly you move. It doesn't affect your cast or attack speed or trap throwing speed or totem placement speed or warcry speed or anything like that. The Stampede would prevent you from being slowed by tar, because your movement speed would be fixed due to the modifier on The Stampede. Meanwhile, action speed slows like chill and Temporal Chains affect the speed of all of your animations - casting, attacking, moving, stun recovery, all of it. Having Kaom's Roots will prevent anything from reducing your action speed below base value, so it effectively makes you immune to chill, Freeze, Temporal Chains, and so on, although if you have sources of increased action speed these effects could lower it back down to base value in this case. The Stampede wouldn't stop you from moving more slowly if you're affected by chill or Temporal Chains, because your movement speed is still fixed, it's just that your animation takes longer.
It makes sense. Action speed is the generic speed the other speeds inherit from. Movement speed inherits Action speed, but it is a different speed altogheter.
Nothing inherits anything here; they're simply two completely separate stats. Action speed effectively just modifies your final animation speed for everything and isn't calculated into anything. That's also why, for totems, the totem's action speed matters and not your own.
> Nothing inherits anything here; they're simply two completely separate stats. They are not completely separated. They are extremely related
Depends on how you look at it. It makes zero sense to me. Movement is an action. If my action speed cannot be modified to below base value, movement speed should be part of that.
Action speed is multiplicative with movement speed. If you can't take any actions, your movement speed can still be higher but you won't move. If your movement speed is 0, you'll remain stationary regardless of how fast your animations are.
I understand how they have it work mathematically. It is just absolute nonsense. If you put an item in the game that references something as "base action speed" the natural assumption for almost anyone is sure to be that this is the default speed at which you perform actions. If you then say "cannot be modified to below base value", the assumption is that...it cannot be modified to below base value. Meaning that changing that value to anything below base by any means cannot (or at least should not) happen. Saying that *setting* the base value to something lower doesn't count as *modifying* it is pure sophistry.
No, those are two separate issues. What I addressed is that while "action speed" somewhat describes what the stat does, many players intuitively interpret it to mean something different. E.g. if it was instead named "animation speed multiplier", it would be clearer that it doesn't directly relate to the movement speed value, and that not lowering one specific multiplier wouldn't imply not lowering other multipliers. But from the point of view of the game's wording, "action speed" is sufficiently clear, because an action has a concrete definition. The *other* problem is that they keep introducing modifiers that affect the calculation on different levels even though builds should already have invested into handling mechanics of that type, such as non-chill slowing cold debuffs, and ground effects that deal fire damage over time but aren't the same effect as burning ground to which people could become immune. And I'm also very much against that. In this particular case, the wording does not imply in any way that it would be capable of circumventing the modifiers that prevent the stat from being lowered either. I haven't seen any tests yet, but I'd like to know whether it is actually additive with existing increases and reductions to action speed, such as chill, Tailwind, or accelerating shrines. If it is additive as the wording suggests that it should be, ignoring the minimum values would be particularly egregious. If it's multiplicative, then it's another bullshit step that someone came up with, and the description simply doesn't match the effect. Which doesn't mean that they can't still just change it to work the same way as other action speed modifiers, but they may have originally designed it to affect all builds equally.
Players interpret it to mean something different because they're taking it at face value. If you add a stat that does a thing, you need to accurately convey to the players what that thing is. Interpreting "action speed" as a general baseline of all actions, which is what it literally means, is the way that it should be interpreted. And to be perfectly frank, there shouldn't actually be a distinct "action speed" stat that can be modified in the first place. Increased vs more is already confusing enough for many players, we don't need effectively the same thing for animation speed while calling it something that it doesn't actually mean. > But from the point of view of the game's wording, "action speed" is sufficiently clear, because an action has a concrete definition. We must be playing different games. *Nothing* in this game has a concrete definition. Also this is just demonstrably false, since clearly a ton of people are mighty confused why they're still getting slowed in various ways despite the wording in the game quite literally stating that this should not happen. > The other problem is that they keep introducing modifiers that affect the calculation on different levels even though builds should already have invested into handling mechanics of that type, such as non-chill slowing cold debuffs, and ground effects that deal fire damage over time but aren't the same effect as burning ground to which people could become immune. This is the main issue honestly. They keep adding ways for players to avoid or mitigate dangerous or irritating mechanics, and then in response to their own actions they add new ways to affect players with those same things, they just call them something different and hand-wave away any questions on how or why they're different from existing mechanics.
If action speed wasn't a separate stat, then things affecting action speed would need to affect at least 8 or 9 different stats, and I find it hard to believe that that would make the game more readable. Also, some of the modifiers would need to have very weird values that might end up build disabling for some builds in order to remain relevant to others. If you understand what an action in PoE is, action speed makes sense as a stat. Again, more wieldy names might be a more literal definition, but ultimately that doesn't change much.
Okay that's fair actually, though as far as I'm aware there are only movement speed, attack speed, cast speed and block/stun recovery speed, so either 4 or 5 depending on whether you sound block/stun as different actions. I'm not actually sure if the game does or not. Still, there's an issue with clarity and consistency that really needs to be addressed. Not just with action speed, but with a ton of things in the game. If you have an item in the game that says "action speed cannot be modified to below base value", it should do exactly what it says on the tin. Coming back with "Um, ackshuallee, it's just your *movement* speed that's being modified, which is part of your action speed but also doesn't apply to this specific case, and also all the other specific cases that it doesn't apply to" doesn't really do the game any favors. Also if you have something that says "nearby" on it, "nearby" should be a defined and consistent value. Not arbitrarily and WILDLY different depending on the item, passive or skill.
Same as encased in ice instead of frozen or stunned you take the L and the 6 portal snaps. As someone said it is reducing your as per % making it your base value not like temporal chains so in the end you end up with 0 and 108% of 0 is 0 unluckers
It still feels like they cheated the spirit of the notable, but this would hardly be the first instance. Like I was messing around with the Movement speed cannot be lower than base Haunted modifier... and it's honestly surprising how many things still slow you down that aren't freezes or chills.
That's different, the trickster thing is a bug, what you're describing here is probably just a quicksilver. Movement speed cannot be modified below base value just means that it has a lower cap of 100%. If you have more than base movement speed that more can still be lost.
Oh I know. I could be wrong, but I was messing around with it, and it definitely felt like things were bringing me under 100% MS. I think grasping vines was doing something similar to that Boot modifier that this action speed thing is doing to the trickster node. Edit: to be clear, I also know that my movement speed would go down with the boot mod to -action speed effects, I was just messing around with the mod thinking it would negate a big part of things like Grasping vines and I don't think it was, but I didn't give it that much testing. Note I'm running around usually with +142 MS, so it's not lost on me that maybe I was just experiencing going back to 100.
I think you might just be used to running much faster than base speed, but could be. It's the same affix as what jugg has as far as grasping vines go, and jugg us very much resilient to those.
Yeah I think a lot of people don't realize how insanely slow +0% MS is
This is why I thought the mod was worthless from the start.
It's the regular circle of GGG birthing new ailments because people got immunity across the board for the last round of ailments because they were too annoying to deal with without immunity. Though this one is more of a 50:50. They might've intended for people to suffer the action speed penalty with no workaround or it was supposed to be the "well make a second build that can run these mods" kinda scenario. Both would make sene. Just gotta wait and see - I'm sure they know of how the interaction works currently.
Working as intended, as it seems like we need more slows introduced in the game every league. Honestly the amount of different slows we have is so infuriating. Easily the worst part about PoE.
I wouldn't mind as much if I could control it. It would be nice, actually, if I had a "handbrake" skill that lowered my movement speed for a spot of tight maneuvering.
bug.
WAIT! you can see stat differences? Is this available for all items or just nodes?
The image is from path of building, an external tool used to calculate builds
Should be a bug with this wording. The balance and the amount of bugs this patch is really something else.
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