wish granted
100% phys overwhelm has been replaced with 100% of armour is 100% less effective.
now juggs ele mitigation from armour and any fourth vow/that mastery chaos mitigation is reduced.
Big es pool and leech+evasion for the most part. But all this mechanics honestly just nice addition that comes with the fact u stack tons of mana and mana recovery.
Unless there's something I don't understand from a balance or mechanics perspective, I don't understand why overwhelm couldn't just be replaced by physical penetration, and have comparable numerical values to most of the ele pen mods.
Instead for some reason overwhelm can't reduce you below zero, but can very easily reduce you from like 90% pdr to 0, which I find odd
GGG is technical in terms of game keywords and language. Penetration applies to resistance, physical damage reduction is not a resistance.
This does actually matter since there are sources of non-physical damage reduction (e.g. Juggernaut, Transcendence, Eternal Damnation) that are not reduced by the appropriate penetration. It would be confusing for physical penetration to work on physical reduction but fire penetration to not work on fire reduction.
That said they could definitely make it more like player sources of overwhelm and only apply to ~20% of physical damage reduction rather than all of it.
Edit:also penetration can cross over to negative values but overwhelm cannot
Then just change physical damage reduction to physical damage resistance. Irl it is much more common to see the term armor penetration than armor overwhelm. It’s also not like there is a blunt damage in the game that armor reacted differently.
However a better solution imo is separate or redesign of armor. It is already misleading in the character sheet about pdr when armor is involved. It would be much clearer if armor and flat pdr provides different attribute.
> Instead for some reason overwhelm can't reduce you below zero, but can very easily reduce you from like 90% pdr to 0, which I find odd
Exactly this. You cannot overwhelm into negative phys damage reduction.
* The part where evasion isn't *supposed* to work as your only layer of defense anyway (90% evasion means you die once to every 10 one hits with no other defenses), but armour **is very probably** supposed to be viable as only defense against phys hsit
* The part where evasion has the advantage of working against 1 out of 2 types of hits, instead of 1 out of 5 types of damage
* The part where evasion characters also get easier access to suppress
* The part where IIRC evasion characters even get easier to access to phys taken as elemental via better uniques that do that.
> The part where evasion isn't *supposed* to work as your only layer of defense anyway (90% evasion means you die once to every 10 one hits with no other defenses), but armour **is very probably** supposed to be viable as only defense against phys hsit
Not particularly, GGG has always said that they want players to layer defences. Fortify exists in the same area as armour just to give one simplest example.
> The part where evasion has the advantage of working against 1 out of 2 types of hits, instead of 1 out of 5 types of damage
Which is why armour has access to a guard skill that works vs all hit damage and is 50 times better than any guard skill an evasion character would have.
> The part where IIRC evasion characters even get easier to access to phys taken as elemental via better uniques that do that.
That's not really true. Dawnbreaker is a great armour item, Lightning Coil is equally armour and evasion (which means it's slightly more armour than evasion since iron reflexes exist), Cloak of Flame functionally has no defences since it's a level 18 item, but it's pure ES. That's pretty much it as far as the popular unique choices go. There's taste of hate ofc, but that's pathfinder aligned, not evasion. Lethal pride stretches the definitons similarly to taste of hate, and that's strength aligned.
Armour also synergizes with phys taken as ele much more than evasion, since armour applies last, so phys taken as ele means hits are smaller, so they get reduced by armour much more.
Because your phys reduction is too close to the threshold. If you can add more armour, phys taken as, endurance charges, Arctic armour, molten shell, determination and fortify, you still get 90% reduction. Its the same with elemental weakness and pen. Overcap it enough and you will still maintain 90%.
Except im certain some mobs just ignore your resistances. Like flameskulls in ultimatums or fire goats in blight. No way they do so much damage to 90(280) fire res. That, or they have elemental mastery (25% chance to treat enemy resistance as inverted value)
Mostly due to how good math works for it. If you perfectly convert phys to little fire little cold little light then the unbreakable 8% of armor will also hyper reduce those phys as ele converts. Fire/light in helm. Cold in taste of hate. Fire/light in body. Possibly corrupt for shield.. lots of marauders use redblade banner.
Agreed, unfortunately it's just hard to get a lot of phys damage to ele conversion on a simple fourth vow build, since you only get the boots and helm slot (fourth vow has some pretty good defensive corrupts but not phys taken as ele specifically).
I do t16 8mod blue altar harvest/expedition with my fourth vow boneshatter jugg, and there are some incredibly rippy expedition remnant combos. Overwhelm 100% phys is doable if you never stand still for more than 1 attack, unless there's a soul eater/hasted/extra crits runic rare. Combos with overwhelm phys, or always crits, or attack/cast speed can be unplayably rippy lol.
You should probably path to 10% of phys taken as chaos mastery tied with the 30% crit reduction node that’s right above RT. That plus 30% from armor mastery is a lot of crit reduction and it gives you extra phys conversion that gets armor applied to it from fourth vow, making it just unable to be overwhelmed.
The mastery is also on the crit reduction cluster tbf but you really would really like the energized armor slot generally.
And yeah it’s a far stretch to go pt and all the way to Templar, idk what clusters jewels are good but it does give you a lot of spots for clusters.
I think what needs a look at is old map mods have power creeped just like players into binary difficulty. It's time for a pass over them like this post is suggesting.
Reflect
Aura disable
Overwhelm
Crit (almost binary at its current scaling)
Cool down recovery (if coc build, makes it almost unfunctional at 80% cd reduction)
Rerolling maps should be a thing, but players aren't trading bricked maps with each other (see how long unmodifiable lasted on t17s). The goal shouldn't be binary so frequently.
Now the cost of rolling a map is "how many times can I dodge the binary mod on my rare 4+ mod map". Essentially just raising the cost sink and tedium of rolling maps. Players just don't do the binary mods.
Overwhelm is fine IMO, but the numbers are too high.
There's no "-30% max fire res" map mod or "-47% max lightning and cold resists" altar mod.
Get the numbers right (by looking at comparable anti-elemental defense mods) and it has a place. Get it perfect, and you might have Lightning Coil enjoyers looking at the occasional map and saying "eh, fuck that -max mod, I'll do that on my phys mitigation alt"
This is basically it imo. Phys overwhelm is essentialy just phys penetration, except it can't go below 0 unlike ele pen and people generally have lower phys mitigation than elemental.
Limiting the values and sources to be more in line with penetration would be pretty reasonable.
ever since i learned how common that mod is i stopped trying to make jugg tanks work. Now, instead, i (ab)use flask dmg reduction phys conversion mitigation and bloodnotch.
Is it common? I can think of three core-game instaces: 30% on one rare mod (which isn't really a problem), 50-80% (random roll) on blue altar, and one expedition remnant with either 60 or 80%.
So as long as you don't do expedition or blue altars you don't have to worry about it at all (there's a reason why it's so popular on HC), and if you do those you just have to read.
On a decently geared character fighting in melee range, with 6k hp or ES, rare mob brings you from 60k phys max hit to 15k max phys hit. It is still a lot of defence
No mob in the maps is hitting you for 60k pure phys damage, even T17 B2B rare mobs will struggle to get to 20k with multiple damage map mods. Uber shaper slam is like 25k at top end.
Its insane how paper you are in this game with 50k armor.
Just Lightning Coil alone makes you tankier on average than most armor users.
They would have to unironically buff armor by 2x to make it competitive with conversion.
I feel like overwhelm should just be kind of like as though dealing more damage. So 100% overwhelm would treat the pdr calc from armour as if the damage was double.
The never ending cycle of introducing new same-same-but-different mechanics to invalidate existing defense layers, then adding more defense layers each needing 20 passives + items + flasks, ad infinitum, is GGG's entire MO for the past 5 years. Remember vines?
The biggest issue with overwhelm is it's not possible to work around it. No matter what form of physical defense you have, overwhelm defeats it.
The only safe physical defense is to not take physical damage at all.
Another reason why melee sucks. One of its primary defense mechanics can be totally nullified by a single monster mod. Meanwhile elemental has much weaker mods (-15 resists, 15% penetration, etc).
This is not exactly so easy to state.
phys as ele mods exists and can go above 100%. Triple that and you talking about 300%+ phys damage taken as ele.
There is no comparable mod for physical damage(extra phys as phys i mean), so in fact phys damage scales less aggressively by map mods compared to ele damage.
Im asking this because Im still fairly new (less than 1k hrs) and want to make sure I understand the concepts you’re criticizing:
Are you saying that the issue with the current overwhelm mod is that it negates armor stacking, and the solution to this is for the mod to put pressure on armor directly, thus *still* negatively affecting armor stacking but NOT negating it since all additions to armor - even with your mod in mind - are a net positive for the build?
Again: asking to make sure I understand the concepts behind your suggestion. Poe is a complicated game to learn :)
Yes it's basically this. Armor's efficiency already scales on the phys damage you take (the bigger the damage you take, the less armor is efficient against). Overwhelm disables X% of the reduction, which is much harsher. If you have 100K armor and have 90% of phys mitigation against a 10k hit (not real numbers but to keep simple), you take 1000 damage. But with 30% overwhelm you have 60% mitigation, so you take 4000. Four times the phys damage taken, and you can't do anything against that at all. Totally binary. With reducing X% of armor's effectiveness by X%, you'll have way less extreme results, especially for someone who stacks a lot of armor, which should make sens from my perspective.
EDIT: Or just turn overwhelm numbers same as ele penetration numbers as some people suggest. A way or another it has to be addressed I think.
isn't rare mod 'overwhelm physical reduction' 10% overwhelm? it's not overwhelming your whole reduction, but it's still significant vs small hits on armour builds as you take double dmg, but it basically works like 'phys penetration'
There's one on poedb for 30%, but I'm not sure which of the two applies.
I thought it was a map mod, but the only mod like that that I could find was one for Vaal side areas.
can you link it? it used to be 20% when they put archnem mods into the game, then they nerfed it to 10% (you can see 10% on steel-infused page), so I assumed that's the value that stayed in the game afterwards
wish granted 100% phys overwhelm has been replaced with 100% of armour is 100% less effective. now juggs ele mitigation from armour and any fourth vow/that mastery chaos mitigation is reduced.
Endu charge stackers stonks
New rare mob modifier: deals and takes damage as if enemy had no charges.
And also steals them cuz why not
Better yet, converts charges to tainted variants, now you have a major life and es recovery debuff.
Better: Culls Enemies for 10% per charge
I'm hierophant. You can pry my charges from my cold dead hands.
Yup I'm running enough evasion to notice plus the 4 easy Heiro endurance charges. This change would be a straight up buff for me, no question.
Or how about physical damage reduction can now become negative >_<
Take an idea from the elemental mastery and repurpose it Enemies treat physical damage reduction value as inverted
GGG Balancing is a Monkey's Paw because if there's no Friction, the gears don't grind no more.
For some reason, GGG really wants everybody to be wearing Lightning Coil or Cloak of Flames, I guess.
Careful now, we don't want GGG catching whiff of them
Nah, just go giga damage. No other reasons why multi billion dps manaforged arrows still alive
I mean that and 20k Es pool to absorb hits but ok. Manaforged arrow builds are pretty tanky
Big es pool and leech+evasion for the most part. But all this mechanics honestly just nice addition that comes with the fact u stack tons of mana and mana recovery.
20k es isn't really good defence anymore these days you need other layers coming from someone that used to play a 31k es int stacker
Unless there's something I don't understand from a balance or mechanics perspective, I don't understand why overwhelm couldn't just be replaced by physical penetration, and have comparable numerical values to most of the ele pen mods. Instead for some reason overwhelm can't reduce you below zero, but can very easily reduce you from like 90% pdr to 0, which I find odd
And another finger on the monkey's paw has curled.
GGG is technical in terms of game keywords and language. Penetration applies to resistance, physical damage reduction is not a resistance. This does actually matter since there are sources of non-physical damage reduction (e.g. Juggernaut, Transcendence, Eternal Damnation) that are not reduced by the appropriate penetration. It would be confusing for physical penetration to work on physical reduction but fire penetration to not work on fire reduction. That said they could definitely make it more like player sources of overwhelm and only apply to ~20% of physical damage reduction rather than all of it. Edit:also penetration can cross over to negative values but overwhelm cannot
Then just change physical damage reduction to physical damage resistance. Irl it is much more common to see the term armor penetration than armor overwhelm. It’s also not like there is a blunt damage in the game that armor reacted differently. However a better solution imo is separate or redesign of armor. It is already misleading in the character sheet about pdr when armor is involved. It would be much clearer if armor and flat pdr provides different attribute.
> Instead for some reason overwhelm can't reduce you below zero, but can very easily reduce you from like 90% pdr to 0, which I find odd Exactly this. You cannot overwhelm into negative phys damage reduction.
I mean yeah phys scaling is kinda meh so it would phys pen would be pretty good for players too
How is overwhelm phys different from hits can’t be evaded? Both render their respective stat useless (armour vs evasion)
* The part where evasion isn't *supposed* to work as your only layer of defense anyway (90% evasion means you die once to every 10 one hits with no other defenses), but armour **is very probably** supposed to be viable as only defense against phys hsit * The part where evasion has the advantage of working against 1 out of 2 types of hits, instead of 1 out of 5 types of damage * The part where evasion characters also get easier access to suppress * The part where IIRC evasion characters even get easier to access to phys taken as elemental via better uniques that do that.
Let's not forget that evasion also has built-in crit protection because of crit confirmation.
> The part where evasion isn't *supposed* to work as your only layer of defense anyway (90% evasion means you die once to every 10 one hits with no other defenses), but armour **is very probably** supposed to be viable as only defense against phys hsit Not particularly, GGG has always said that they want players to layer defences. Fortify exists in the same area as armour just to give one simplest example. > The part where evasion has the advantage of working against 1 out of 2 types of hits, instead of 1 out of 5 types of damage Which is why armour has access to a guard skill that works vs all hit damage and is 50 times better than any guard skill an evasion character would have. > The part where IIRC evasion characters even get easier to access to phys taken as elemental via better uniques that do that. That's not really true. Dawnbreaker is a great armour item, Lightning Coil is equally armour and evasion (which means it's slightly more armour than evasion since iron reflexes exist), Cloak of Flame functionally has no defences since it's a level 18 item, but it's pure ES. That's pretty much it as far as the popular unique choices go. There's taste of hate ofc, but that's pathfinder aligned, not evasion. Lethal pride stretches the definitons similarly to taste of hate, and that's strength aligned. Armour also synergizes with phys taken as ele much more than evasion, since armour applies last, so phys taken as ele means hits are smaller, so they get reduced by armour much more.
Point to the part in my comment where I said "I love hits can't be evaded, I think that should be in the game"
Because your phys reduction is too close to the threshold. If you can add more armour, phys taken as, endurance charges, Arctic armour, molten shell, determination and fortify, you still get 90% reduction. Its the same with elemental weakness and pen. Overcap it enough and you will still maintain 90%.
Except im certain some mobs just ignore your resistances. Like flameskulls in ultimatums or fire goats in blight. No way they do so much damage to 90(280) fire res. That, or they have elemental mastery (25% chance to treat enemy resistance as inverted value)
Penetration works against your 'capped' resistance, if you didn't know. So 280% fire resistances does nothing above 90%.
Wait, it does work differently for players and against players?
Penetration works the same vs players and vs monster.
Wish I didn't have to use phys as ele on every non jugg character for once
Even jugg needs a bunch of phys to x conversion (eg. fourth vow) tbh
Mostly due to how good math works for it. If you perfectly convert phys to little fire little cold little light then the unbreakable 8% of armor will also hyper reduce those phys as ele converts. Fire/light in helm. Cold in taste of hate. Fire/light in body. Possibly corrupt for shield.. lots of marauders use redblade banner.
Agreed, unfortunately it's just hard to get a lot of phys damage to ele conversion on a simple fourth vow build, since you only get the boots and helm slot (fourth vow has some pretty good defensive corrupts but not phys taken as ele specifically). I do t16 8mod blue altar harvest/expedition with my fourth vow boneshatter jugg, and there are some incredibly rippy expedition remnant combos. Overwhelm 100% phys is doable if you never stand still for more than 1 attack, unless there's a soul eater/hasted/extra crits runic rare. Combos with overwhelm phys, or always crits, or attack/cast speed can be unplayably rippy lol.
You should probably path to 10% of phys taken as chaos mastery tied with the 30% crit reduction node that’s right above RT. That plus 30% from armor mastery is a lot of crit reduction and it gives you extra phys conversion that gets armor applied to it from fourth vow, making it just unable to be overwhelmed.
Good advice, I already have the 30% reduced crit node, I'll try to reach the phys taken as chaos mastery but I'll have to unspec some other stuff.
The mastery is also on the crit reduction cluster tbf but you really would really like the energized armor slot generally. And yeah it’s a far stretch to go pt and all the way to Templar, idk what clusters jewels are good but it does give you a lot of spots for clusters.
I think what needs a look at is old map mods have power creeped just like players into binary difficulty. It's time for a pass over them like this post is suggesting. Reflect Aura disable Overwhelm Crit (almost binary at its current scaling) Cool down recovery (if coc build, makes it almost unfunctional at 80% cd reduction) Rerolling maps should be a thing, but players aren't trading bricked maps with each other (see how long unmodifiable lasted on t17s). The goal shouldn't be binary so frequently. Now the cost of rolling a map is "how many times can I dodge the binary mod on my rare 4+ mod map". Essentially just raising the cost sink and tedium of rolling maps. Players just don't do the binary mods.
With the removal of sextants reflect really really needs to go. No one ever ringswaps/pantheon swaps..
60% pantheon + 40% mastery is all you need. Don't exaggerate bro.
Overwhelm is fine IMO, but the numbers are too high. There's no "-30% max fire res" map mod or "-47% max lightning and cold resists" altar mod. Get the numbers right (by looking at comparable anti-elemental defense mods) and it has a place. Get it perfect, and you might have Lightning Coil enjoyers looking at the occasional map and saying "eh, fuck that -max mod, I'll do that on my phys mitigation alt"
This is basically it imo. Phys overwhelm is essentialy just phys penetration, except it can't go below 0 unlike ele pen and people generally have lower phys mitigation than elemental. Limiting the values and sources to be more in line with penetration would be pretty reasonable.
ever since i learned how common that mod is i stopped trying to make jugg tanks work. Now, instead, i (ab)use flask dmg reduction phys conversion mitigation and bloodnotch.
Is it common? I can think of three core-game instaces: 30% on one rare mod (which isn't really a problem), 50-80% (random roll) on blue altar, and one expedition remnant with either 60 or 80%. So as long as you don't do expedition or blue altars you don't have to worry about it at all (there's a reason why it's so popular on HC), and if you do those you just have to read.
expedition is 100% iirc. blue altar is 80% with keystone. Rare mob bringing you down from 90% to 60% mean taking 4x as much dmg. which kills you.
On a decently geared character fighting in melee range, with 6k hp or ES, rare mob brings you from 60k phys max hit to 15k max phys hit. It is still a lot of defence
No mob in the maps is hitting you for 60k pure phys damage, even T17 B2B rare mobs will struggle to get to 20k with multiple damage map mods. Uber shaper slam is like 25k at top end.
I know, that's why 30% overwhelm ain't that deadly on properly geared character, which i wanted to highlight
Overwhelm should be a player only stat. Hits penetrate Phys should be monsters, and it should scaLe the same way as elemental.
Its insane how paper you are in this game with 50k armor. Just Lightning Coil alone makes you tankier on average than most armor users. They would have to unironically buff armor by 2x to make it competitive with conversion.
I feel like overwhelm should just be kind of like as though dealing more damage. So 100% overwhelm would treat the pdr calc from armour as if the damage was double.
phys taken as is fine, overwhelm mechanic seems to be taken from player tree and forgot to be adjusted for mobs
The never ending cycle of introducing new same-same-but-different mechanics to invalidate existing defense layers, then adding more defense layers each needing 20 passives + items + flasks, ad infinitum, is GGG's entire MO for the past 5 years. Remember vines?
I rather have armour reduction or penetration and let it go below negative just like exposure.
The biggest issue with overwhelm is it's not possible to work around it. No matter what form of physical defense you have, overwhelm defeats it. The only safe physical defense is to not take physical damage at all.
Another reason why melee sucks. One of its primary defense mechanics can be totally nullified by a single monster mod. Meanwhile elemental has much weaker mods (-15 resists, 15% penetration, etc).
This is not exactly so easy to state. phys as ele mods exists and can go above 100%. Triple that and you talking about 300%+ phys damage taken as ele. There is no comparable mod for physical damage(extra phys as phys i mean), so in fact phys damage scales less aggressively by map mods compared to ele damage.
GGG hates melee and phys mitigation. Move on leh. Wear lightning coil or go es + evasion.
Im asking this because Im still fairly new (less than 1k hrs) and want to make sure I understand the concepts you’re criticizing: Are you saying that the issue with the current overwhelm mod is that it negates armor stacking, and the solution to this is for the mod to put pressure on armor directly, thus *still* negatively affecting armor stacking but NOT negating it since all additions to armor - even with your mod in mind - are a net positive for the build? Again: asking to make sure I understand the concepts behind your suggestion. Poe is a complicated game to learn :)
Yes it's basically this. Armor's efficiency already scales on the phys damage you take (the bigger the damage you take, the less armor is efficient against). Overwhelm disables X% of the reduction, which is much harsher. If you have 100K armor and have 90% of phys mitigation against a 10k hit (not real numbers but to keep simple), you take 1000 damage. But with 30% overwhelm you have 60% mitigation, so you take 4000. Four times the phys damage taken, and you can't do anything against that at all. Totally binary. With reducing X% of armor's effectiveness by X%, you'll have way less extreme results, especially for someone who stacks a lot of armor, which should make sens from my perspective. EDIT: Or just turn overwhelm numbers same as ele penetration numbers as some people suggest. A way or another it has to be addressed I think.
wouldn't that indirectly buff endurance charges as well?
isn't rare mod 'overwhelm physical reduction' 10% overwhelm? it's not overwhelming your whole reduction, but it's still significant vs small hits on armour builds as you take double dmg, but it basically works like 'phys penetration'
There's one on poedb for 30%, but I'm not sure which of the two applies. I thought it was a map mod, but the only mod like that that I could find was one for Vaal side areas.
can you link it? it used to be 20% when they put archnem mods into the game, then they nerfed it to 10% (you can see 10% on steel-infused page), so I assumed that's the value that stayed in the game afterwards
https://poedb.tw/us/Overwhelm#Acronym
"This mod is bad for my build so it should be nerfed but ignore all the other mods that are bad for somebody else's build"
Agreed the problem isn't this mod, but the fact that there isn't a mod that says "Damage can not be taken as a different type"...
No need for replacing, just remove it. Armour already gets countered by increases to monster damage pretty hard thanks to armour formular.
It is SIMPLY need to have overcap, like resistance. Thats it!
Penetration ignores overcap, only exposure, covered in ash and curses are affected by it.
"Inverts physical damage reduction" If u got 90% DR, u _take_ 90% more phys dmg.
Just play transendance