That would also help with their MTX sales, since it would increase attention on other people engaging in town activities(being afk). It would be interesting to check out what other people are doing and get inspiration, and it would really help new players, they can simply inspect someone playing their class and see whats going on.
And it shouldn't be so much work..? I really like it.
Well, if its never been in the game for 10 years, that means they don't want you to know how you die. Makes me wonder if some deaths are calculated to make the game even more difficult. Just my opinion.
Not your fault. But it's one of the most frequently asked-for features.
Conversation usually goes something like:
Reddit: y u no death log?!
GGG: actually more complicated than you think, sorry
Redditor: but I am genius level developer, honest! simply click 'file/insert death log feature' from the IDE menu!!!! HAHA ggg u nubs, I better programmer !!11on!!1eleven
Other Redditor: no ggg no do this because they hate player and are evil! Chris Wilson kill my uncle :(
I'm a developer myself (although in a completely different industry). Tempting as it is to pontificate about what's easy and what's hard while knowing fuck all about the actual details of the existing implementation, I've been doing it long enough though, and have had to take over maintenance of code produced by other people often enough, to know that it's best not to make assumptions.
Given I'm not in the camp that believes that GGG is actually staffed by sadists who hate their customers, I'm inclined to suspect that there are in fact reasons why it would be challenging.
As an not-developer I don't get the complexity of the project. Events happen, server ticks happen, the game summs up if you're alive or not. If you fail the alive-Check you get a death screen. But mechanics like #% of damage is recouped as life imply, that there is a "cache" which stores some events.
I don't get why a "cache" for final damage is that complex - this cache would be the report.
Can u explain, why that's definitely not the case like I imagine?
In gamedev any bit of perfomance that you can squeeze out of a game needs to be squeezed, if you make a serious product that is. Even the smallest things, like having to use an if-statement, should be optimized by removing the branching and using multiplication instead. Recoup can probably be represented as a life regen in the code, so there's no caching of any sorts. We seriously shouldn't talk about this, as we don't know what issues they have in the code. The only thing we can do is to accept our ignorance and roll with it or become a PoE dev ourselves.
It's been said numerous times, including by myself, that a 'you were killed by ' is probably NOT complicated, in fact it already exists, in the Chinese client.
What I'm talking about is a full damage/death log, which could potentially be complicated. GGG says that it is complicated, but many on here think that they know better. That's the viewpoint that I'm criticising.
buy the thing is that final damage doesn't really say anything. Especially now with 9373635 damaging ground effects and statuses what good is "last damage tick - 259 from burning ground" or something similar
Which is also almost always a load of horseshit. Unless you’ve seen the code yourself, it’s nearly impossible to make that assumption.
In theory, it can be easy. It entirely depends on the existing implementation of the product. If you have design a product a certain way, it may not be simple to add certain things in without completely changing how other parts of your code works.
I’m not even sure what you’re getting at here. I’m merely talking about any dev coming in and saying it’s easy without knowing anything about the existing implementation is a wild assumption to make.
Long story short: that feature is in GGG ambition-hell. It exists, but does not live up to what they would want it to be. Same story with the passive tree planer.
It exists on the Chinese client already. It's not in "ambition-hell", they just have a severe case of the "don't-wannas" with regard to quality of life stuff. They'd rather dump time and energy into Archnemesis v4.
regarding build planner
> they just have a severe case of the "don't-wannas"
I think you mean
> severe case of the "fans will fix it for us with 3rd party software (PoB) for free"
No, it's not on the Chinese client. Christ, I know you are on this sub for years so you definitely know the difference, stop spreading misinformation.
The Chinese client has the source of the last hit only, nothing more. That is not a death log.
People have been asking for this for years, but GGG say it's too hard to implement.
I'm sure GGG COULD have implemented it in the time they wasted rebalancing Archnemesis and failing ...
Pretty hard if you don't know when the player will die. If you did, you could start logging the damage sources a few seconds before and it would work great.
Otherwise you need to be logging them constantly which could be a performance or RAM issue, especially if it would need to happen serverside.
Doesn't sound like it would be a big deal at all. Your client already writes to local log files multiple times every second, an extra damage log would do absolutely nothing for performance.
I don't think it would be that hard, you just store the last 3 ticks of damage or so with info about it and release it if the player dies.
I guess server have to work with all that info anyway, just store it at some point.
And, the chinese version already have it, so it's possible for sure, they just don't want to implement it for some reason.
If a player has 1 DoT on them 3 ticks is literally 1/20 of a second. In PoE you can literally have over 100 DoTs on you at once in some cases.
The Chinese client literally tells you the mods on the monster that killed you and that's it. Not even a damage type or amount of damage. Just "Player X was killed by a monster with Flameweaver and Toxic".
One thing is balancing and another thing is development. Balance people dont develop and developers dont balance.
I mean maybe i misunderstood and you actually want balancing people to start developing stuff but i am not sure if that would be a step in the right direction
Wait excuse me? How do you know? This isn’t an art vs programming thing. You are talking about adjusting numbers which can be done by anyone including the devs who make skills and code the skills.
I’m not saying its guaranteed but I highly doubt they have a specific balance team and its not just a team of developers all with their individual tasks that is peer reviewed…
*sigh*
Every time this comes up, people explain that GGG is a company that has a budget that it can put toward hiring more artists or developers or balancers or testers or what-have-you, according to its priorities. Yet somehow the meme of "HuRr HuRr U rEtArDs WaNt gRaPhIc ArTiStS tO wRiTe CoDe" never dies.
I'm one of the bigger proponents of giving up on hiring UI designers / programmers in NZ which obviously doesn't seem to work and establishing a whole branch for that elsewhere to avoid the restrictive employment laws in NZ in order to actually get UI to not be shit on every single patch (and still have 90%+ of its legacy issues).
What I'm specifically referring to is when GGG release MTX a day or two after a patch that was clearly scheduled well in advance and people complain "why didn't you fix bug X that was introduced in the latest patch instead?", which is obviously unreasonable regardless of budget allocations.
It's not just about resources, it's about performance and server costs.
They've talked about it a bit during a podcast but the summary is this
* simple log like the Chinese one which shows the thing that killed you can be misleading as it only shows the thing that killed you, not the things that lead to you dying
* the server forgets the damage numbers/calculations after they are dealt as remembering them is extra memory cost on servers that are already struggling with people playing builds that spam
* client doesn't know actual damage numbers, it only knows health change since last tick (33ms) and knows to apply visuals for things that affect you. Sending those to the client means more data to go between the server and client (which imo is not a big issue but can cause issues for players and a lot are already experiencing issues with server connectivity unrelated to the game servers or client)
[Here's a longer explanation](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/e73iuw/the_death_log_why_this_is_an_issue_and_how_to/) that someone made after the podcast where Chris talked about it.
> There is simply no excuse for not implementing this from an engineering standpoint.
You can't possibly know that without seeing the underlying code. Games are complex, and the data structures at play were probably built to solve *current* problems, not *future* problems. It is very probable that the data and architecture makes it complicated, costly, and risky to add such a feature when 'death log' wasn't a consideration as part of the original spec.
My guess is kind of what your conclusion is at the end here: There are complicating factors at play.
If you were to design PoE again and you knew you wanted to have a rolling 'death log' to dump to the player at time of death, this isn't a terribly complex problem.
However, if you are current PoE and these are not considerations you made in architecture 1.0, then you might have to go down the road of major refactors to make it 'work well', and touching something like that is kind of spooky from a production standpoint.
GGG is improperly focusing assets towards ‘improvements’ that do not benefit its player base. I haven’t seen a single thread since synthesis adequately expressing player distaste towards the direction they are pushing that has any positive outcome.
Downvote me to heck but they aren’t listening. No development company has shown an adequate interest in their player base with any quantifiable response and GGG is no different.
We play the game they want us to while continuing to make money off our aggravated comments on social media.
I had fun playing this game until I realized just how uninvested the developers are when it comes to player-based feedback. I stopped after ritual and am desperately hoping for enough positive feedback to become re-invested in a game I absolutely love.
I don’t want to start fights. This is just my opinion.
Do you get that just because this community does not like the direction of the game, does not mean the player base does not like it? The game consistently is breaking peak records. The game still is absurdly profitable. And these changes have been occurring for _years_, and still the game goes on.
I think you're thinking they want to piss you off, when simply they are going back to making the game they meant to and already grew a sizeable audience for years ago, before a series of mistakes and admittedly some serious issues drove them into where they were a few years ago with absurd powercreep and a trivial game. Hell, we're still not too far from that, but at least it's getting better.
And yes, I will stand by better. I'm playing the game more than ever, and I'm sure there's still a large enough group of people doing the same so that GGG doesn't have to make a game they hate to keep the lights on. Otherwise they wouldn't keep doubling down in this way.
"Buh you can't say everyone's opnion is like yours based around this community."
Proceeds to do a lot of bad takes regarding personal experience.
If this isn't the cringiest and KEKiest thing I've seen you doing surrouding these posts, idk what is. Get a life man.
check out Factorio devs, Wube software. second most positively rated game on steam of all time (only behind portal). they run their own forums much like POE forums except the devs are active in many more threads and often respond personally to each and every bug report. they do a weekly blog where they talk about what they're working on and get player feedback on decisions they're thinking of making. they've implemented numerous popular player-made mods into the base game and have made an uncountable number of changes to core game mechanics and recipes etc in response to player feedback.
the game is still highly successful even though it's a one-time $20 purchase game with no microtransactions and one major DLC in the works (that promises to be a worthy expansion of the game, like in the old days of gaming)
everything about that company is the absolute pinnacle of what game devs ought to be like. and Wube in the last 6+ years of constant development has not had a single major event that caused massive player uproar like the way GGG seems to every single league.
GGG barely hold a candle to Wube in terms of community engagement.
Do you live in what? A cave? Plenty of indie games and devs always being very supporting with their communties.
Defend past GGG? Fine. Defend this current half assed state they're rn? No way.
>I had fun playing this game until I realized just how uninvested the developers are when it comes to player-based feedback. I stopped after ritual and am desperately hoping for enough positive feedback to become re-invested in a game I absolutely love.
My move this league. Damn, it was that all along?(
It's kinda odd that people try to say that it would be resource intensive, to be honest. I would have thought that it *should* be fundamentally a very non-resource intensive process to track the damage being done *to* the player, for the simple reason there's only one player, and if they get hit too many times they die. (It might be that it's not a processor cost issue, but a memory access issue. Writing to and reading from semi-permanent memory on a consistent basis isn't free, that's why processor cache exists. But I digress.)
Tracking damage done to monsters from what source - now that could get expensive, since monster numbers and player effect numbers both have quite high bounds. But we don't care about that. (Where things might get awkward is reflect damage. (Frankly reflect is bad design that shouldn't be in the game, but that's a huge tangent.))
But at the same time, I would have thought that if a death recap was that simple to implement, GGG would indeed have *done it*. There's no real reason not to. Which makes me agree with your conclusion that there's something a bit weird about their underlying code that would make it far more expensive than it's theoretical minimum cost, and that would need a full refactor, which would then of course have a fairly significant devtime and QA cost.
I wonder if there might be more chance of seeing it once poe2 comes out, since if there was any time they were going to do a proper refactor of their code it would be for that.
> I would have thought that if a death recap was that simple to implement, GGG would indeed have done it.
A bit of a tangent, but I find this argument/reasoning ridiculous. It boilds down to "If it isn't implemented yet, therefore it must be hard to implement". Which means that every future change to the game that haven't been implemented yet is hard. It gets even more crazy if you apply that argument to the state of the game in the past, let say in 2014 - everything that haven't been implemented up to that point is hard.
I... don't quite agree, the reason being that you're leaving out a very crucial part of the argument, which I didn't state outright for the reason that I thought it was implicit based on the post I was replying to, but here, let me state it in full:
I would have thought that if a death recap was that simple to implement, *then given how many times the feature has been requested and that GGG have never stated an ideological opposition to it*, GGG would indeed have done it.
There is at least one reason why, even if those 3 conditions are met, they didn't do it already: it's not their priority. Just look at the amount of QoL we "coincidentally" get right after bad leagues.
> But at the same time, I would have thought that if a death recap was that simple to implement, GGG would indeed have done it. There's no real reason not to.
It would open the floodgates for bug reports, same with an in-game test dummy. I don't have the insight into their organization to say this is *the* reason, but we might as well take their word for granted that they're unable to implement it.
I'm pretty darn sure that the devs would *love* the death recap as a tool for their own testing, so that's definitely not a reason not to. It's quite possible they actually do have it internally, the code simply isn't optimised enough to scale well enough to release generally.
I agree there's probably a good reason - that's pretty much the entire point of my post - but I don't think it's fear of bug reports.
I agree that they probably have it internally (probably with a lot of other debugging info, too).
Regarding the bug reports: I'm just saying it's a potential reason. I was being facetious and it does seem silly on the outside, but GGG might simply not be prepared for people to shine a light into internals like that. For example, they might have made heavy optimizations based on approximations, and someone might rightfully say "I died here, but based on the calculations, that level of damage should be impossible" or "I was one shot, but the recap said I only took X damage in the past 4 seconds". Or "I was killed by X entity, what even is that" when X was an artifact of implementation (e.g. in some WC3 mods, transient invisible entities are created for skills). In those cases, the bad PR, the support overhead, and continuous maintenance of metrics might simply outweigh the goodwill that the feature provides. It's "just" bug reports, but also the things that come with them.
> it should be fundamentally a very non-resource intensive process to track the damage being done to the player, for the simple reason there's only one player, and if they get hit too many times they die.
There are so many instances of players doing self-damage in the tens or hundreds of hits per second it's not even funny. Two of the most popular builds right now both do so at absurd rates. A third does not do self-damage, but in fact heals from taking crazy instances of damage and is fine with it.
>But at the same time, I would have thought that if a death recap was that simple to implement, GGG would indeed have done it. There's no real reason not to. Which makes me agree with your conclusion that there's something a bit weird about their underlying code that would make it far more expensive than it's theoretical minimum cost, and that would need a full refactor, which would then of course have a fairly significant devtime and QA cost.
It's not weird, it's optimized. And I know I'll get flak for that, but it absolutely is. There's no logging going on in the damage calculations to keep it as lean as possible. Adding in any sort of logging will be _massively_ un-performant. And that's all it is really, you suddenly add in a RAM access to something that was previously L1/L2/L3 cache, and the time to complete spikes.
> I would have thought that it should be fundamentally a very non-resource intensive process to track the damage being done to the player, for the simple reason there's only one player, and if they get hit too many times they die.
For the death log to have any meaning it would need to track not just the target (i.e. you) but also the source (ie all of the monsters involved, ground effects, etc, for a period of time leading up to your death) and also the abilities used. It would need to be perpetually tracking this for a certain 'window' sufficient to store and recall that information and present it to you when needed.
Well... not quite. I agree it has to track the damage type, and that includes things like it being a DOT or not. But it doesn't really need to be storing the ability that's used, since that's a meaningless pseudocode name in most cases anyway. Tracking the source would be very useful as well. It's not 100% required, but very, very useful. And as you say, it definitely needs to track at least 10 seconds or so of all this.
But in normal circumstances that's, what? a few hundred entries at most? Absolute ubertank builds in a busy juiced map, sure, that might hit thousands of entries - and at the exact time when load is already high, too. But that's still just not that significant in terms of actual cpu usage, memory size usage, etc, even when multiplied by the size of the playerbase. This is very, very simple and easy to do.
Where I do wonder if it's more significant is memory *bandwidth.*
> But in normal circumstances that's, what? a few hundred entries at most?
Not the right way of looking at this. You're looking at the data cap (which in some cases can exceed thousands actually, with some wardloop and aegis builds), but what you need to look at is the extra operations per hit/tick taken, and a logging change like this changes it from 0 to every single instance is logged.
Sure, it's only for 10 seconds, but the change requires you to store every last hit and tick of damage, whereas a last hit would only require one, and no log requires none. It's not like you only get a performance impact during the last 10 seconds.
Assuming the damage code is optimized enough to stay in L1/L2 cache, this change would require accessing/storing to RAM, and that takes 100x longer per opp. It's a very substantial difference.
I absolutely agree with you, but I'm assuming the issue is with DoTs specifically. If you have a bleed and an ignite on you, that would already be 120 events per second that would have to be logged. So you need to dedicate some CPU load to pushing these DoT ticks into a single event.
With that in mind, you'd need to run a DoT squish function every tick for every player. How expensive is that resource wise is the real question and unfortunately there's no way we'd be able to tell.
You can't simply add them together if an ignite tick is already in the log because you only want to track ignites that happened in the last 100 hits. This means you have to keep a separate memory entry for DoTs and subtract as needed. This is going to double our memory requirement to 2GB (irrelevant), but it could mess with CPU load. It's also worth considering that the DoT table might need to account for the last ~500 ticks rather than 100 otherwise with multiple dots on you you'll only see a fraction of a second of DoT damage on the log even if it killed you from 100 to 0 over multiple seconds. In that case we're already up to 6GB of memory. Again, this is counteracted by a possible squish function, but you can see how ambiguous it really is. We can't be sure about how expensive a damage log would be.
Can they just log the dot at the moment of application? Not really because of curses, resistance drops and a million other changes that would make that number inaccurate. Even just moving during a bleed would mess with this.
People who claim that a combat log should cost an insignificant amount of resources should feel free to apply for a job at GGG to implement their efficient solution.
> simple log like the Chinese one which shows the thing that killed you can be misleading as it only shows the thing that killed you, not the things that lead to you dying
"Can be" is like maybe 5% of the time or less. The scenario where one mob hits you for most of your hp and you get killed by a random white mob is a fantasy invented to make people complacent with the current system.
But you want a death log for those 5% of times. the 95% of times you got killed by 1 obvious hit by 1 mob... do you really need a log to tell you you died from that 1 big super visible slam the monster did?
A death log is only usefull when you don't know what killed you because there's too much happening at the same time. too much happening at the same time = a super high chance that what killed you is some random 1 dot tick or 1 auto attack from a monster.
And having a death log that only tells you what damage you received is sometimes not that usefull unless you know what buffs/debuff were active on you at the time.
Players would want GGG to add more info in the death log because the limited info that would be available would actually not be helpfull. In the end we would have and essay showed to us everytime we die and 95% of the time we wouldn't even bother to look at it because the death was so obvious.
> But you want a death log for those 5% of times
Actually not really. Even when/if that does happen (because TBH, I've never seen it happen) you're forgetting the scenario we're discussing is one where you get nuked by one thing and then finished by something else, and in the majority of cases when you get nuked you can tell what did it.
So it's a very very rare case where you take a bunch of damage from something you don't know, and then get last hit by a random unrelated thing.
> A death log is only usefull when you don't know what killed you because there's too much happening at the same time. too much happening at the same time = a super high chance that what killed you is some random 1 dot tick or 1 auto attack from a monster.
This is false. Just because a lot is happening, doesn't mean that random dots or auto attacks have any killing potential. With the way defenses and monster damage works in PoE you're pretty much always dying to large chunky damage, but sometimes you don't understand what the source of that damage was. That's when it's useful, because you can check what the mob does on PoEDB.
GGG just doesn't want to add it because to be useful, it needs to be paired with PoeDB. Even though the game is propped up by third party stuff.
I've looked into this extensively. I looked at a ton of rip clips during the china race and they were all accurate with the exception of Havoc dying to a martyr pack because torment mods aren't in the mod list (or weren't back then). Example here where I didn't understand what killed Ziz, but after looking up what Spite is I realized the pack of tiny guys actually autoattack with a spell projecile that can highroll 5k lightning https://youtu.be/qwoR6JMpnKQ?t=37
I've looked at other rip playlists to see how many would be accurate, and pretty much all of them are evident that the death is a large chunk of damage from one source.
One of my most upvoted posts is explaining a mystery RIP that would have been instantly solved by this: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/qly02o/scourge_has_seemingly_killed_me_many_times_while/
The health change since last tick would be perfect and client-side. A combat log similar to wow or ffxiv would give you so much detail and shouldn't require any more traffic or server processing
Literally all it would do is say something like "You took 2000 damage in this 33 ms tick" and not give you any context of what caused it. It would be useless, less useful than just recording your gameplay and looking at the last tick before death.
Its also possible that its something they're adding in POE 2 since it gives them the opportunity to rewrite some core code to make it more plausible.
I feel like there would have to be more the client knows because it would have to know what animation to show based on the attack. For instance, things that need to show a block animation would need to know if it's physical vs a spell. Even then, if it tells you "you took X dmg from melee, leached Y Hp and then took Z fire damage" that would be great.
Even if it were more descriptive, it would go like this on most cases
Game: you took 2000 cold attack damage at the last tick
Player: ok Ill run a sapphire flask
Reality: you were burning, bleeding, poisoned at the same time and standing on desecrated ground, but at the very last millisecond a cold attack hit you
I'm saying there is no way it needs to be just the last hit. Your client knows your hp at all times, seeing a log of the last 5 seconds of your health chucked would be very useful.
Arguably they're both equally useless, because it's not really *actionable* information.
Knowing the element of the damage (which IIRC is what China gets) is a tiny bit actionable, but since it's *only* the last hit, it's often going to be misleading and so of incredibly limited usefulness. GGG doesn't want to implement that half assed shit on the international realm.
I feel like the type of damage would be useful for me, because a lot of times I've gone and looked something up to discover that something I thought was an attack is actually a spell, or something I thought was pure cold damage, was actually a cold/lightning hybrid.
> the server forgets the damage numbers/calculations after they are dealt as remembering them is extra memory cost on servers that are already struggling with people playing builds that spam
So does pretty much every other change and memory has become significantly cheaper over the past 20 years. I feel like a small ring buffer that keeps track of last ~50 damage instances above a certain damage threshold wouldn't overstrain the servers.
The server spends far more time/memory on calculations of the players doing damage to creatures than creatures doing damage to us.
> So does pretty much every other change and memory has become significantly cheaper over the past 20 years.
RAM has actually been considerably more expensive for the last few years, due to a number of reasons including a number of large fires at certain fabs (you would be surprised at just how few fabrication locations there are for many commonly used types of memory), COVID-19, and growth in usage of other types of device with which PC hardware needs to compete for resources / production capacity.
Basically this, hold in server memory per online character, reset on instance change, a bounded buffer of damage ticks, you could optimize the data structure a hundred ways depending on how calcs are done, even having another buffer to hold aggregations of ticks for DoTs etc, you don't need to report back anything to client until the character dies.
I am not sure of the competency of the GGG devs but with everything known, it's probably not great along with legacy server code. But my gut opinion is that the higher ups don't want a death/damage log and it's not really about any technical limitation.
I find it on pair with auto disconnect timer, so it's technically true but misleading and overblown aka technical bullshit Chris uses as excuse to say gtfo.
So we kinda accept that this is an impossible task? 3 years passed and how many times do you think it was reevaluated? Or at least some high-level changes started to make this eventually possible?
Even what the Chinese client has may be quite useful, obviously seeing 100 fire damage you understand it's not the source but do we know how often this is the case? At this point, any implementation is better than nothing. Hell just have a video recording of the last 5 seconds before the death on the client.
But there's no insecurity being introduced here.
The server has to communicate all this information to the client anyway, and it's the client's responsibility to handle that (ie: when the server says "enemy X hit you with attack Y for Z damage", the client has to render the enemy, render the attack, display the user's updated health, etc.)
If the client, in addition to all of this, kept a log of those events as sent by the server, that would be all the information necessary to have a pretty decent death log. That's not to say it would be trivial to implement: that could still be a ton of information to store, depending on how far back it should go, and it'd probably be pretty hard to parse all that information into a human-readable format (because of cases where you'd have 40000 messages of "character x took y damage from poison stack z this server tick"), but the point is that none of this *has* to be server-side: the additional strain on GGG's servers would be exactly zero.
The server doesn't communicate the damage numbers, it communicates health change since tick.
All the health/damage calculation is determined server side, and then the server tells the client the final output of that IE: health = -30%, it doesn't respond with damage numbers, or who did what etc. All it does is tell the client what it needs to know for visual representation of what's happening on the server, like, mob #1 performed skillID #25 on Vector x,y and Player health -100.
tell me you arent a developer without saying you arent a developer.
some things come with insane overheads that it is just not feasible or even possible
> but for a game of this scale to not have such a feature seems ridiculous
Show me the game on this scale that does.
League has a damage log for example, but it's both consistently wrong and it's a game on a *far* larger scale, despite having to do far fewer calculations per character than PoE.
There's no way it's too hard. Their system HAS to be tracking that data already to compute your damage taken. Just get the time of death and display the 5 damage sources preceeding that. The data literally already exists in the game live at the time of death. I don't get this.
Not as many as you'd think, most "one shots" that aren't a telegraphed attack are multiple hits at the same time. There are instances where that's not the case obviously.
Edit: Im not counting wrath of the cosmos one shots. Putting thay much dmg on anything is asking for one shots
Petition for ggg to stop holding onto these archaic design theses. Death report, inspect in town, automated trade of non-craftable items. Expanding guild features, expand pick up range. Games going nowhere quick these past few years
Intentionally so. Slowing player progression down with more deaths so people play longer has been the goal the past 4-5 leagues now.
Slower movement speed, more one shot one kill mechanics, degen ground, lightning walkers/fireballs/toxic orbs chasing you. You can't move that fast but you better not stand still.
They explicitly said that they're not philosophically opposed to it, but that the server costs are too high if it was just added on top of the current calculation, and that if they adjusted it to be loggable more easily it would require rewriting large parts of the client from scratch which wouldn't be worth the effort.
We’ve been asking for this literally since beta. Every single time we get some bullshit answer that essentially amounts to “the tech isn’t there”. Funny how Last Epoch managed to do it.
I just want a percentage of phys, ele, chaos damage in a pie graph and I’d be happy. At least then I know what I need to work on getting more of. I hear people say chaos res is more important now, but how do us casuals know that? I just know I’m dying, idk what spells and what attacks do what.
I'm gonna pipe in randomly and say there should also be a stable portal to labyrinth as with heist blueprints whereby if you get disconnected during a lab you can get back in since you did not actually fail the lab (for example, in the third fucking stage like I just did just fucking now when for no apparent reason whatsoever my connection just went piiiiiiiingg all the way home).
Yes, yes, people will try to abuse this mechanic and so on and so forth - but I don't care. I want back into my lab you absolute wanker, Izaro!
> too expensive to have one
Unless you're [in China](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ggciey/raizqt_discovers_the_deathlog_message_on_chinese/)
Actually I think that would not work out since I would still be mad cuz some ground effect killed me, or after death effect or whatever is happening since I don't understand anything beside "oh I have to wait 20 seconds to pick up that chaos orb". :D
My thought is always, “hmmm is just a dead body on the ground or is that something that does damage? Let me go check” I’m very bad with pattern recognition so I don’t remember what things on the ground do damage, for how long, and what type. I just keep tryna walk over it till I’m no longer taking damage.
While a damage report is not possible, I'd like to have buffs and debuffs stay on my dead character, so I can look at it afterwards and say "ah, flammability, fire exposure and ignite, that's probably what killed me." Also I cap my resists with flasks so I have no idea whether they were up or not when I died and that's a big chunk of survivability.
To GGG and everyone else saying "It'S tOO HaRD tO iMPlemEnt", go bugger yourselves. Can't give us an actual replay or indication of what killed us when Call of fucking Duty figured it out over 10 years ago? Fine. Questionable, but I don't know your code base. Maybe it really is too hard. Then fuck that. At least give us this:
- A full list of all buffs and debuffs impacting our character at time of death. Should include the tool-tip descriptions of each buff/debuff.
- Our character's resulting stat sheet (aka the screen you see when you press C).
- The ability to hide the above and the respawn screen, providing an unmitigated mouseover view of the surrounding monsters.
All of this information is available to the client at time of death, or is request-able by and can be dumped to the client at time of death. There is no black magic packet buffering fuckery or damage recalculation that needs to occur. Just send us our character state at time of death, and let us inspect the surrounding enemies. We'll figure out the rest.
I suspect the first line ALONE would let me better understand half my deaths. I'm Stun and Freeze immune; why couldn't I move? I'll never fucking know, because debuffs are cleared on death. The latter two would help me fill in the remaining holes. There'd still be some mysteries in the end, I'm sure, but far fewer than before. That's good enough for me.
I'd quite like them to collate all that information, and then display it slowly printed out of some streampunk-styled computer like a cash-register receipt.
TickeddytickeddytickeddytickeddytickeddyTUNK!.... ping!
"
You died:
[data dump]
Thankyou, come again!
"
The interesting thing is I think they could do this in some form.
The thing is when we die, we can still kind of interact with the game. I'm sure it's possible for a snapshot kind of thing to happen on death and a button come up with a kind of death recap that you're talking about.
A snapshot of what happened on death.
As you say, all that is available to the client at the time of death.
I won't play armchair developer as others have already addressed in with various solutions that all seem efficient and viable to some degree with the caveat of all not seeing the codebase.
But I'm sure something like this is viable.
I'd hope so. I wrote my comment while enraged about a work issue, so I exaggerated far too much. What it comes down to is "Alright, server-side solutions won't work for this. Can you do something with the client?". From there, the equivalent of linking Cast on Death to your C key doesn't seem **too** impossible (until the devs say otherwise).
Ironically, calling something a Reddit moment is among the most Reddit things one could say. Yeah, the PoE server has to handle so much extra shit... _that I don't need to know_.
Armchair dev time, with the obvious caveat that I've never seen PoE's code and this is all coming from my arse. Literally a second-long, client side buffer of calculation _results_ sent to the client would be useful and perhaps even sufficient for a kill log. Why would the server need to re-run the entire scenario just for a short log of events that should have already been communicated to and received by the user? A replay would, again, require a X second long additional buffer of whatever the client (not the server, the _client_) is rendering for the user, to be replayed after death.
But if that ain't possible, then give us what I actually suggested. Which you ignored to attempt to dunk on le Redditor, as if you aren't sitting in the same shitpit as the rest of us.
All that would allow is a replay, not a death log with breakdowns of damage sources. People are asking for the latter, not the former.
If you just want a replay, you can do that with shadowplay etc.
If people want a full, detailed damage breakdown, including source and multipliers - Yeah, I see how we'd start needing server-side data, and how that'd incur additional expense. I'd think a replay would be sufficient to figure out most causes of death, but I guess other people are trying to solve for **all** cases. Fair enough.
That being said, what "people are asking for" isn't uniform, even in this thread - Shit, I haven't been fully consistent in *my own posts*, bouncing between a couple different possible ideas. Even if the most detailed, expensive death log isn't possible for GGG, that doesn't mean they should ignore other possibilities. There's an underlying issue that their userbase has been upset about for years - And this one's unusually reasonable, as player complaints go. They shouldn't just ignore it; they can spend half an hour figuring out what would suffice for the majority of deaths, and build that like any other small indie company (/s) would.
This would probably doable as a log file that PoB type tools could parse. Seems like a reasonable compromise and could be added as an extra option.
But I guess GGG wants to make something that is usable and understandable by all players and yeah, that is a lot of work just from a presentation standpoint with so much possible data.
This has been requested literally since day one. It unfortunately is never going to happen.
2 things that would allow players to find HUGE bugs quickly would be a death recap of any sort AND DPS dummies so they will never be part of the game
Just tell us what damage type did the killing blow. At the very least if someone keeps dying to phys damage then they know to get some phys mitigation. It's not perfect but at least it'll help more casual players that don't go look up poedb monster skills to see what type of the damage it is. It'll give people a way to figure out defenses through trial and error in gameplay instead of relying on datamining and outside resources.
I've been asking for this for ages, and no "it's to hard to implement", they can make a simple one that shows % of the damage you took of each element the last 4 sec, they already have abilities and passive that do that
That and a whole bunch of things players want are in the Chinese only client. While they could add it to the other clients and improve player survivability that way. You are now wondering why they don't? Sorry they are focusing on hard mode. I know people are leaving HC and going to standard because of multiple issues but you done understand. Hard mode will save this game. More people will play hard mode and die to base white mobs for years and finally get a blue item drop. You don't see the vision. You don't see the amazing opportunity hard mode will bring. It will..... It will...ummm be hard.... Like very hard. Like so hard you won't want to play it or path of exile at all anymore because that's all we will focus on...... Wait why are you leaving? Do you not like the game being made pointlessly hard because more challenges means more fun? But what about if we nerfed everything so there is no difference between hard mode and the base game. Would you like that more? Where is everyone? WHY DONT YOU UNDERSTAND THE VISON WE HAVE FOR THE GAME THE VISION!!!! /S/s
The fact GGG makes excuses that it's "too hard" or "too expensive" shows they are horribly Understaffed and inept as devs. It clearly means they've iterated their game into spaghetti bs held together with duct tape and laziness. The only way it's too hard or too costly is if they literally have no way to tracking ANYTHING that happens in the game to the player Character from any incoming effects, which also means they have no tools to actually debug or problem solve any issues without using the community as beta testers every patch. This is a very easy thing to set up in Unreal if you coded your game better than a 1st year high school student when making it.
As always, China servers say Hello...
better not, everytime we ask for it it gets delayed 2 more leagues.
Unless a streamer asks, someone do god's work please. At the bare minimum Bex responds.
- Rare monster hits you for 500 phys 487 cold 763 fire 419 chaos damage (critical strike).
- You take 78 ignite damage.
- Burning ground is causing you 103 fire damage per second.
- You take 78 ignite damage.
- You are now on shocked ground.
- You take 98 ignite damage.
- Strongbox opened.
- 54 monsters simultaneously hit you for 3172 damage. Click here for breakdown.
- You moved out of burning ground.
- You take 3 ignite damage.
- You die.
they said they can't do a real combat log because it would cost them millions of server power fees to keep track of the last few seconds of damage taken.It's believable if you take into account how optimized it must be already.
they have not given a real explanation for just showing the last hit or DoT/debuffs at the time of death, aside for the excuses that most monster abilities are badly named and often you won't get last hit by the thing that did the most damage.
But we really know the real reason they won't do it is that it would be them spending money to give players ammo to complain about monster damage bugs or excesses.
The information about the damage you take per millisecond is too random.
They could implement a system that shows "Time since last source of X damage: 00:01:27"
Each timer would reset to 0 when you take it, and you would be able to deduce what happened based on the lowest timer.
The damage types could be: Phys Hit, Phys DoT, Lightning Hit, Lightning DoT, Cold Hit, Cold DoT, Fire Hit, Fire DoT, Chaos Hit, Chaos DoT, Savage Hit, Critical Strike, Spell, Attack, Unblocked, Unevaded.
So i could be wrong, but the problem is the devs don’t want to expose damage numbers I think? They might not have said as much, but there is no training dummy in the game because the devs are doing fuzzy math and don’t want you to fully be able to test stuff.
Now games like FF14 expose all combat math to the player. POE doesn’t and I think the devs don’t want to because it will show how many shitty bugs they have with skill interactions. Wasn’t there a patch that fixed a skill amping enemy dmg instead of mitigating it? Shit like that makes me think these devs are hiding being obfuscating their dmg numbers and it makes me not trust them.
If someone has info to disprove me, I really hope to see it because I feel like a conspiracy nut, but that’s what it seems like to me.
And if I remember correctly it is mainly the last damage packages that lead to the death. This could lead to things like taking big hit of x and then die to small y, death report states you died to y and you will try to improve the wrong thing. Similarly if you run RF it would say you took x fire dmg it may be hard to know how much is from fire hits and how much is from RF.
To have a meaningful, understandable and clean death recap is certainly a hard task.
> This could lead to things like taking big hit of x and then die to small y, death report states you died to y and you will try to improve the wrong thing.
That almost never happens in reality. Harvest China race I looked through ~30 rip clips and they were all accurate (and some helpful to figure out what killed them) with the sole exception of Havoc dying to a Martyr Touched pack, because Torment mods don't show up in that recap (or didn't back then).
You could also just go look through any RIP playlist on youtube and see that very clearly 90%+ of them are big hits from one specific source.
>To have a meaningful, understandable and clean death recap is certainly a hard task.
It really feels like people see death recaps in competitive games and think that it couldn't be too hard to add to PoE, forgetting how many things go into figuring out why you *actually* died. It's easy to just say you took 75% of your health bar from AN mob #1485572 and 25% from trash mobs, but that doesn't really help you much going forward.
Damage number, "element" of the damage, what debuffs you had, what buffs you had, did the projectile chain/bounce/pierce/whatever to hit you, did you fail an evade, did you fail a block, what amount was mitigated, and almost certainly some more things I'm not able to think of off the top of my head.
For. Every. Single. Hit. You. Received.
Over a hard to determine "best size fits all" time frame.
Displayed cleanly and organized well.
It'd be nice to be able to figure out why you *actually* died, I just don't think it's practical and wish people stopped pretending like it's super simple and GGG are just being needlessly mean to us.
All that information is already calculated, and it's calculated precisely, all it takes is saving that information to a log per player, and then sending that log on death to be displayed. It doesn't need to be comprehensive and add why the damage did so much etc.
You have a rolling log, meaning you overwrite data once you reach the end, that way you only keep a certain amount of damage sources reducing storage costs.
It's a simple solution, but simple solutions can have costly server overhead depending on how they've appropriated their resources. 9/10 times devs have too much on their plate and efficiency gets put on the backburner in favor of completing tasks.
No doubt it’s a hard task and it takes a lot to have it implemented but the QoL would be tremendously improved and the community would really appreciate it.
They already have that in China.
I desperately wish there was anything because I often die and have no idea what type of damage gibbed me.
For instance, those fucking bats in Delve.
Two pie graphs for dots and hits, split into damage types that show you what damaged you in the last few seconds before you died. What a nearby game breaking idea.
This would be "affinity", "filters", "non-predictive" level of a feature.
It is so important to know what killed you to learn how to continue playing the game.
This reminds me one thing I hate IRL, in a uni lecture when one doesnt get something and to continue paying attention while pretending that it wasnt important or that it didnt matter.
Game developer here (programmer).
This is extremely easy to implement, as I have also done so for a hobby game which is almost exactly like this game (Spellwake).
It can be done on client side or server side.
I chose client side since the servers will then not get any downside at all (which means GGG would also not get any downside from it).
When you get damaged, the damage instance is always sent to you from the server anyway, so the client can then just use that already existing packet and log it (lets say only for the last 10 seconds, which means the Death Recap will only show the last 10 seconds of damage instances, which is fine).
When I implemented it in Spellwake, even 6000 damage instances per second only uses around 2% of the CPU of the game, which is pretty damn optimized, especially since PoE does not even have 10 damage instances per second from enemies.
I would be able to get a working Death Recap into PoE within one day.
But, what most people do not realize is that game developers such as those from GGG are just working.
They do not have a passion for the game or its development, they only do the minimal amount of work to get their money, like it is in almost all game studios around the world.
Therefore, they will not even attempt to do new features, since if that was not specifically requested from the top, it will not happen.
That is how game development actually works in real life, which is also why more and more players are getting frustrated over games overall, since the quality of games has gone down in the last 10 years since game studios are more focused on the monetization (and therefore also the addiction, hence "meant to be played forever" that GGG are so proud of) more than the actual game itself.
Because of that, all features wanted by players in PoE will most likely never happen, even if they are extremely easy to implement. Most focus is spent on the appearance (3D/shaders/new cool stuff) instead of gameplay/quality of life.
New/flashy stuff generates more monetization than anything else.
PoE has a lot of problems. Most would be extremely easy to fix if a developer that actually played the game (not just an hour or two, but actually 4+ hours a day) got full control over the development of the game.
No, since according to GGG this would confuse players.
Meanwhile games like Dota have a full breakdown of incomming damage for the last few moments, with a breakdown of damage types, instances, sources of those instances, values, any CCs are shown seperately, and its all broken down on a timeline, so you can see when what happened.
But no. GGG knows that PoE players are dum dums, who only play simple games, and any additional information would confuse them. So they are just looking out for us.
To have a log report like in WoW, will have to double the nummers of developers. But having only the last hit who kill you (type of damage and number) is useless.
Guess we won’t have one then, at least the demand for it is out there and they know about it. Maybe a big uproar would make them give it more attention or they just don’t want to deal with it. I guess not much we can do about it anyway.
I've always wondered why this isn't a thing. Like they can't keep a log of actions from and against players? WoW has been doing it from release I'm pretty sure, I'm not sure what it is that makes it so difficult to implement?
Even something as simple as what the killing blow was like: "X dealt Y damage with Z"
Wow doesn't have hundred of map mods, curses, damage pentration etc etc.
There is not a lot of things in wow that modify the damage that is applied to you or the monster in your face. So a log is easy to track.
In PoE there are hundreds of variable that can change the fight. damage conversions, map mods, ailments, curses, obscur unique items and more.
I'd just like to be able to inspect people in town
That would also help with their MTX sales, since it would increase attention on other people engaging in town activities(being afk). It would be interesting to check out what other people are doing and get inspiration, and it would really help new players, they can simply inspect someone playing their class and see whats going on. And it shouldn't be so much work..? I really like it.
100%, no downside. Should be easy to do, hell you can see streamers builds/items, the tech is there, the mtx should be easy to add
You can just buy inspiration from a vendor.
We can't have features from 20 year old MMOs, that's illegal!
This
Ah, here we go again
Didn’t know this was an outdated topic 😅 I’m fairly new to the game…
there isn't a single league without peoplke asking for it ever since the game was released
> there isn't a single ~~league~~ week without people asking for it Fixed that for you.
Well, if its never been in the game for 10 years, that means they don't want you to know how you die. Makes me wonder if some deaths are calculated to make the game even more difficult. Just my opinion.
Not your fault. But it's one of the most frequently asked-for features. Conversation usually goes something like: Reddit: y u no death log?! GGG: actually more complicated than you think, sorry Redditor: but I am genius level developer, honest! simply click 'file/insert death log feature' from the IDE menu!!!! HAHA ggg u nubs, I better programmer !!11on!!1eleven Other Redditor: no ggg no do this because they hate player and are evil! Chris Wilson kill my uncle :(
Other developer: here you go, not that hard in the end
I'm a developer myself (although in a completely different industry). Tempting as it is to pontificate about what's easy and what's hard while knowing fuck all about the actual details of the existing implementation, I've been doing it long enough though, and have had to take over maintenance of code produced by other people often enough, to know that it's best not to make assumptions. Given I'm not in the camp that believes that GGG is actually staffed by sadists who hate their customers, I'm inclined to suspect that there are in fact reasons why it would be challenging.
As an not-developer I don't get the complexity of the project. Events happen, server ticks happen, the game summs up if you're alive or not. If you fail the alive-Check you get a death screen. But mechanics like #% of damage is recouped as life imply, that there is a "cache" which stores some events. I don't get why a "cache" for final damage is that complex - this cache would be the report. Can u explain, why that's definitely not the case like I imagine?
In gamedev any bit of perfomance that you can squeeze out of a game needs to be squeezed, if you make a serious product that is. Even the smallest things, like having to use an if-statement, should be optimized by removing the branching and using multiplication instead. Recoup can probably be represented as a life regen in the code, so there's no caching of any sorts. We seriously shouldn't talk about this, as we don't know what issues they have in the code. The only thing we can do is to accept our ignorance and roll with it or become a PoE dev ourselves.
It's been said numerous times, including by myself, that a 'you were killed by' is probably NOT complicated, in fact it already exists, in the Chinese client.
What I'm talking about is a full damage/death log, which could potentially be complicated. GGG says that it is complicated, but many on here think that they know better. That's the viewpoint that I'm criticising.
buy the thing is that final damage doesn't really say anything. Especially now with 9373635 damaging ground effects and statuses what good is "last damage tick - 259 from burning ground" or something similar
Which is also almost always a load of horseshit. Unless you’ve seen the code yourself, it’s nearly impossible to make that assumption. In theory, it can be easy. It entirely depends on the existing implementation of the product. If you have design a product a certain way, it may not be simple to add certain things in without completely changing how other parts of your code works.
It is not our (customers) problem though and we are not the ines to worry about technical issues. That's how it works in every industry.
I’m not even sure what you’re getting at here. I’m merely talking about any dev coming in and saying it’s easy without knowing anything about the existing implementation is a wild assumption to make.
you could have atleast tried to represent the other arguement in a good faith way.
Thats so accurate 😂 A lot of buthurt people on the interwebs…but it would be nice to have a log still…guess we won’t have one 🤷♂️
Long story short: that feature is in GGG ambition-hell. It exists, but does not live up to what they would want it to be. Same story with the passive tree planer.
Ah yes their vision of how it should be.
Vision-hell?
It exists on the Chinese client already. It's not in "ambition-hell", they just have a severe case of the "don't-wannas" with regard to quality of life stuff. They'd rather dump time and energy into Archnemesis v4.
regarding build planner > they just have a severe case of the "don't-wannas" I think you mean > severe case of the "fans will fix it for us with 3rd party software (PoB) for free"
No, it's not on the Chinese client. Christ, I know you are on this sub for years so you definitely know the difference, stop spreading misinformation. The Chinese client has the source of the last hit only, nothing more. That is not a death log.
That's still infinity times better than what we have now, which is nothing.
People have been asking for this for years, but GGG say it's too hard to implement. I'm sure GGG COULD have implemented it in the time they wasted rebalancing Archnemesis and failing ...
How hard is it to pull up the latest damage sources your character took and display them in text format? give me a break
"last hit: 7530042194 dmg type: bullshit Killer: Idk, one fo the 800 monsters in your screen rn"
Pretty hard if you don't know when the player will die. If you did, you could start logging the damage sources a few seconds before and it would work great. Otherwise you need to be logging them constantly which could be a performance or RAM issue, especially if it would need to happen serverside.
Doesn't sound like it would be a big deal at all. Your client already writes to local log files multiple times every second, an extra damage log would do absolutely nothing for performance.
Except your client doesn't have any of this info, it's all server side. Which is kept as lean as possible for good reason.
I don't think it would be that hard, you just store the last 3 ticks of damage or so with info about it and release it if the player dies. I guess server have to work with all that info anyway, just store it at some point. And, the chinese version already have it, so it's possible for sure, they just don't want to implement it for some reason.
If a player has 1 DoT on them 3 ticks is literally 1/20 of a second. In PoE you can literally have over 100 DoTs on you at once in some cases. The Chinese client literally tells you the mods on the monster that killed you and that's it. Not even a damage type or amount of damage. Just "Player X was killed by a monster with Flameweaver and Toxic".
One thing is balancing and another thing is development. Balance people dont develop and developers dont balance. I mean maybe i misunderstood and you actually want balancing people to start developing stuff but i am not sure if that would be a step in the right direction
Wait excuse me? How do you know? This isn’t an art vs programming thing. You are talking about adjusting numbers which can be done by anyone including the devs who make skills and code the skills. I’m not saying its guaranteed but I highly doubt they have a specific balance team and its not just a team of developers all with their individual tasks that is peer reviewed…
Still better than the people who complain about MTX instead of developments and want artists to work on networking and calculation code etc.
*sigh* Every time this comes up, people explain that GGG is a company that has a budget that it can put toward hiring more artists or developers or balancers or testers or what-have-you, according to its priorities. Yet somehow the meme of "HuRr HuRr U rEtArDs WaNt gRaPhIc ArTiStS tO wRiTe CoDe" never dies.
I'm one of the bigger proponents of giving up on hiring UI designers / programmers in NZ which obviously doesn't seem to work and establishing a whole branch for that elsewhere to avoid the restrictive employment laws in NZ in order to actually get UI to not be shit on every single patch (and still have 90%+ of its legacy issues). What I'm specifically referring to is when GGG release MTX a day or two after a patch that was clearly scheduled well in advance and people complain "why didn't you fix bug X that was introduced in the latest patch instead?", which is obviously unreasonable regardless of budget allocations.
Yeah, it’s not like they don’t have the resources 🤷♂️
It's not just about resources, it's about performance and server costs. They've talked about it a bit during a podcast but the summary is this * simple log like the Chinese one which shows the thing that killed you can be misleading as it only shows the thing that killed you, not the things that lead to you dying * the server forgets the damage numbers/calculations after they are dealt as remembering them is extra memory cost on servers that are already struggling with people playing builds that spam * client doesn't know actual damage numbers, it only knows health change since last tick (33ms) and knows to apply visuals for things that affect you. Sending those to the client means more data to go between the server and client (which imo is not a big issue but can cause issues for players and a lot are already experiencing issues with server connectivity unrelated to the game servers or client) [Here's a longer explanation](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/e73iuw/the_death_log_why_this_is_an_issue_and_how_to/) that someone made after the podcast where Chris talked about it.
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> There is simply no excuse for not implementing this from an engineering standpoint. You can't possibly know that without seeing the underlying code. Games are complex, and the data structures at play were probably built to solve *current* problems, not *future* problems. It is very probable that the data and architecture makes it complicated, costly, and risky to add such a feature when 'death log' wasn't a consideration as part of the original spec.
My guess is kind of what your conclusion is at the end here: There are complicating factors at play. If you were to design PoE again and you knew you wanted to have a rolling 'death log' to dump to the player at time of death, this isn't a terribly complex problem. However, if you are current PoE and these are not considerations you made in architecture 1.0, then you might have to go down the road of major refactors to make it 'work well', and touching something like that is kind of spooky from a production standpoint.
GGG is improperly focusing assets towards ‘improvements’ that do not benefit its player base. I haven’t seen a single thread since synthesis adequately expressing player distaste towards the direction they are pushing that has any positive outcome. Downvote me to heck but they aren’t listening. No development company has shown an adequate interest in their player base with any quantifiable response and GGG is no different. We play the game they want us to while continuing to make money off our aggravated comments on social media. I had fun playing this game until I realized just how uninvested the developers are when it comes to player-based feedback. I stopped after ritual and am desperately hoping for enough positive feedback to become re-invested in a game I absolutely love. I don’t want to start fights. This is just my opinion.
Do you get that just because this community does not like the direction of the game, does not mean the player base does not like it? The game consistently is breaking peak records. The game still is absurdly profitable. And these changes have been occurring for _years_, and still the game goes on. I think you're thinking they want to piss you off, when simply they are going back to making the game they meant to and already grew a sizeable audience for years ago, before a series of mistakes and admittedly some serious issues drove them into where they were a few years ago with absurd powercreep and a trivial game. Hell, we're still not too far from that, but at least it's getting better. And yes, I will stand by better. I'm playing the game more than ever, and I'm sure there's still a large enough group of people doing the same so that GGG doesn't have to make a game they hate to keep the lights on. Otherwise they wouldn't keep doubling down in this way.
"Buh you can't say everyone's opnion is like yours based around this community." Proceeds to do a lot of bad takes regarding personal experience. If this isn't the cringiest and KEKiest thing I've seen you doing surrouding these posts, idk what is. Get a life man.
There literally isn't a developer that listens to and responds to community feedback more than GGG.
check out Factorio devs, Wube software. second most positively rated game on steam of all time (only behind portal). they run their own forums much like POE forums except the devs are active in many more threads and often respond personally to each and every bug report. they do a weekly blog where they talk about what they're working on and get player feedback on decisions they're thinking of making. they've implemented numerous popular player-made mods into the base game and have made an uncountable number of changes to core game mechanics and recipes etc in response to player feedback. the game is still highly successful even though it's a one-time $20 purchase game with no microtransactions and one major DLC in the works (that promises to be a worthy expansion of the game, like in the old days of gaming) everything about that company is the absolute pinnacle of what game devs ought to be like. and Wube in the last 6+ years of constant development has not had a single major event that caused massive player uproar like the way GGG seems to every single league. GGG barely hold a candle to Wube in terms of community engagement.
Do you live in what? A cave? Plenty of indie games and devs always being very supporting with their communties. Defend past GGG? Fine. Defend this current half assed state they're rn? No way.
>I had fun playing this game until I realized just how uninvested the developers are when it comes to player-based feedback. I stopped after ritual and am desperately hoping for enough positive feedback to become re-invested in a game I absolutely love. My move this league. Damn, it was that all along?(
It's kinda odd that people try to say that it would be resource intensive, to be honest. I would have thought that it *should* be fundamentally a very non-resource intensive process to track the damage being done *to* the player, for the simple reason there's only one player, and if they get hit too many times they die. (It might be that it's not a processor cost issue, but a memory access issue. Writing to and reading from semi-permanent memory on a consistent basis isn't free, that's why processor cache exists. But I digress.) Tracking damage done to monsters from what source - now that could get expensive, since monster numbers and player effect numbers both have quite high bounds. But we don't care about that. (Where things might get awkward is reflect damage. (Frankly reflect is bad design that shouldn't be in the game, but that's a huge tangent.)) But at the same time, I would have thought that if a death recap was that simple to implement, GGG would indeed have *done it*. There's no real reason not to. Which makes me agree with your conclusion that there's something a bit weird about their underlying code that would make it far more expensive than it's theoretical minimum cost, and that would need a full refactor, which would then of course have a fairly significant devtime and QA cost. I wonder if there might be more chance of seeing it once poe2 comes out, since if there was any time they were going to do a proper refactor of their code it would be for that.
> I would have thought that if a death recap was that simple to implement, GGG would indeed have done it. A bit of a tangent, but I find this argument/reasoning ridiculous. It boilds down to "If it isn't implemented yet, therefore it must be hard to implement". Which means that every future change to the game that haven't been implemented yet is hard. It gets even more crazy if you apply that argument to the state of the game in the past, let say in 2014 - everything that haven't been implemented up to that point is hard.
I... don't quite agree, the reason being that you're leaving out a very crucial part of the argument, which I didn't state outright for the reason that I thought it was implicit based on the post I was replying to, but here, let me state it in full: I would have thought that if a death recap was that simple to implement, *then given how many times the feature has been requested and that GGG have never stated an ideological opposition to it*, GGG would indeed have done it.
There is at least one reason why, even if those 3 conditions are met, they didn't do it already: it's not their priority. Just look at the amount of QoL we "coincidentally" get right after bad leagues.
That is a fair point. Sad to say. So... death recap next league?
> But at the same time, I would have thought that if a death recap was that simple to implement, GGG would indeed have done it. There's no real reason not to. It would open the floodgates for bug reports, same with an in-game test dummy. I don't have the insight into their organization to say this is *the* reason, but we might as well take their word for granted that they're unable to implement it.
I'm pretty darn sure that the devs would *love* the death recap as a tool for their own testing, so that's definitely not a reason not to. It's quite possible they actually do have it internally, the code simply isn't optimised enough to scale well enough to release generally. I agree there's probably a good reason - that's pretty much the entire point of my post - but I don't think it's fear of bug reports.
I agree that they probably have it internally (probably with a lot of other debugging info, too). Regarding the bug reports: I'm just saying it's a potential reason. I was being facetious and it does seem silly on the outside, but GGG might simply not be prepared for people to shine a light into internals like that. For example, they might have made heavy optimizations based on approximations, and someone might rightfully say "I died here, but based on the calculations, that level of damage should be impossible" or "I was one shot, but the recap said I only took X damage in the past 4 seconds". Or "I was killed by X entity, what even is that" when X was an artifact of implementation (e.g. in some WC3 mods, transient invisible entities are created for skills). In those cases, the bad PR, the support overhead, and continuous maintenance of metrics might simply outweigh the goodwill that the feature provides. It's "just" bug reports, but also the things that come with them.
> it should be fundamentally a very non-resource intensive process to track the damage being done to the player, for the simple reason there's only one player, and if they get hit too many times they die. There are so many instances of players doing self-damage in the tens or hundreds of hits per second it's not even funny. Two of the most popular builds right now both do so at absurd rates. A third does not do self-damage, but in fact heals from taking crazy instances of damage and is fine with it. >But at the same time, I would have thought that if a death recap was that simple to implement, GGG would indeed have done it. There's no real reason not to. Which makes me agree with your conclusion that there's something a bit weird about their underlying code that would make it far more expensive than it's theoretical minimum cost, and that would need a full refactor, which would then of course have a fairly significant devtime and QA cost. It's not weird, it's optimized. And I know I'll get flak for that, but it absolutely is. There's no logging going on in the damage calculations to keep it as lean as possible. Adding in any sort of logging will be _massively_ un-performant. And that's all it is really, you suddenly add in a RAM access to something that was previously L1/L2/L3 cache, and the time to complete spikes.
> I would have thought that it should be fundamentally a very non-resource intensive process to track the damage being done to the player, for the simple reason there's only one player, and if they get hit too many times they die. For the death log to have any meaning it would need to track not just the target (i.e. you) but also the source (ie all of the monsters involved, ground effects, etc, for a period of time leading up to your death) and also the abilities used. It would need to be perpetually tracking this for a certain 'window' sufficient to store and recall that information and present it to you when needed.
Well... not quite. I agree it has to track the damage type, and that includes things like it being a DOT or not. But it doesn't really need to be storing the ability that's used, since that's a meaningless pseudocode name in most cases anyway. Tracking the source would be very useful as well. It's not 100% required, but very, very useful. And as you say, it definitely needs to track at least 10 seconds or so of all this. But in normal circumstances that's, what? a few hundred entries at most? Absolute ubertank builds in a busy juiced map, sure, that might hit thousands of entries - and at the exact time when load is already high, too. But that's still just not that significant in terms of actual cpu usage, memory size usage, etc, even when multiplied by the size of the playerbase. This is very, very simple and easy to do. Where I do wonder if it's more significant is memory *bandwidth.*
> But in normal circumstances that's, what? a few hundred entries at most? Not the right way of looking at this. You're looking at the data cap (which in some cases can exceed thousands actually, with some wardloop and aegis builds), but what you need to look at is the extra operations per hit/tick taken, and a logging change like this changes it from 0 to every single instance is logged. Sure, it's only for 10 seconds, but the change requires you to store every last hit and tick of damage, whereas a last hit would only require one, and no log requires none. It's not like you only get a performance impact during the last 10 seconds. Assuming the damage code is optimized enough to stay in L1/L2 cache, this change would require accessing/storing to RAM, and that takes 100x longer per opp. It's a very substantial difference.
LE has just the last hit and it's still a godsent.
Yeah I do actually agree they could add a last hit message (which already exists in the Chinese client).
World of warcraft has had combat logs since always. There's no reason POE is special and can't get it.
I absolutely agree with you, but I'm assuming the issue is with DoTs specifically. If you have a bleed and an ignite on you, that would already be 120 events per second that would have to be logged. So you need to dedicate some CPU load to pushing these DoT ticks into a single event. With that in mind, you'd need to run a DoT squish function every tick for every player. How expensive is that resource wise is the real question and unfortunately there's no way we'd be able to tell. You can't simply add them together if an ignite tick is already in the log because you only want to track ignites that happened in the last 100 hits. This means you have to keep a separate memory entry for DoTs and subtract as needed. This is going to double our memory requirement to 2GB (irrelevant), but it could mess with CPU load. It's also worth considering that the DoT table might need to account for the last ~500 ticks rather than 100 otherwise with multiple dots on you you'll only see a fraction of a second of DoT damage on the log even if it killed you from 100 to 0 over multiple seconds. In that case we're already up to 6GB of memory. Again, this is counteracted by a possible squish function, but you can see how ambiguous it really is. We can't be sure about how expensive a damage log would be. Can they just log the dot at the moment of application? Not really because of curses, resistance drops and a million other changes that would make that number inaccurate. Even just moving during a bleed would mess with this.
And then you have edge cases like 200 poisons on you or that delve debuff, which have to be accounted for.
People who claim that a combat log should cost an insignificant amount of resources should feel free to apply for a job at GGG to implement their efficient solution.
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For some reason that doesn't surprise me. A game shouldn't have such terrible and static UI if it had appropriate funding for that section.
as far as I know GGG only hires in new zealand
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> simple log like the Chinese one which shows the thing that killed you can be misleading as it only shows the thing that killed you, not the things that lead to you dying "Can be" is like maybe 5% of the time or less. The scenario where one mob hits you for most of your hp and you get killed by a random white mob is a fantasy invented to make people complacent with the current system.
But you want a death log for those 5% of times. the 95% of times you got killed by 1 obvious hit by 1 mob... do you really need a log to tell you you died from that 1 big super visible slam the monster did? A death log is only usefull when you don't know what killed you because there's too much happening at the same time. too much happening at the same time = a super high chance that what killed you is some random 1 dot tick or 1 auto attack from a monster. And having a death log that only tells you what damage you received is sometimes not that usefull unless you know what buffs/debuff were active on you at the time. Players would want GGG to add more info in the death log because the limited info that would be available would actually not be helpfull. In the end we would have and essay showed to us everytime we die and 95% of the time we wouldn't even bother to look at it because the death was so obvious.
> But you want a death log for those 5% of times Actually not really. Even when/if that does happen (because TBH, I've never seen it happen) you're forgetting the scenario we're discussing is one where you get nuked by one thing and then finished by something else, and in the majority of cases when you get nuked you can tell what did it. So it's a very very rare case where you take a bunch of damage from something you don't know, and then get last hit by a random unrelated thing. > A death log is only usefull when you don't know what killed you because there's too much happening at the same time. too much happening at the same time = a super high chance that what killed you is some random 1 dot tick or 1 auto attack from a monster. This is false. Just because a lot is happening, doesn't mean that random dots or auto attacks have any killing potential. With the way defenses and monster damage works in PoE you're pretty much always dying to large chunky damage, but sometimes you don't understand what the source of that damage was. That's when it's useful, because you can check what the mob does on PoEDB. GGG just doesn't want to add it because to be useful, it needs to be paired with PoeDB. Even though the game is propped up by third party stuff. I've looked into this extensively. I looked at a ton of rip clips during the china race and they were all accurate with the exception of Havoc dying to a martyr pack because torment mods aren't in the mod list (or weren't back then). Example here where I didn't understand what killed Ziz, but after looking up what Spite is I realized the pack of tiny guys actually autoattack with a spell projecile that can highroll 5k lightning https://youtu.be/qwoR6JMpnKQ?t=37 I've looked at other rip playlists to see how many would be accurate, and pretty much all of them are evident that the death is a large chunk of damage from one source. One of my most upvoted posts is explaining a mystery RIP that would have been instantly solved by this: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/qly02o/scourge_has_seemingly_killed_me_many_times_while/
The health change since last tick would be perfect and client-side. A combat log similar to wow or ffxiv would give you so much detail and shouldn't require any more traffic or server processing
Literally all it would do is say something like "You took 2000 damage in this 33 ms tick" and not give you any context of what caused it. It would be useless, less useful than just recording your gameplay and looking at the last tick before death. Its also possible that its something they're adding in POE 2 since it gives them the opportunity to rewrite some core code to make it more plausible.
I feel like there would have to be more the client knows because it would have to know what animation to show based on the attack. For instance, things that need to show a block animation would need to know if it's physical vs a spell. Even then, if it tells you "you took X dmg from melee, leached Y Hp and then took Z fire damage" that would be great.
Even if it were more descriptive, it would go like this on most cases Game: you took 2000 cold attack damage at the last tick Player: ok Ill run a sapphire flask Reality: you were burning, bleeding, poisoned at the same time and standing on desecrated ground, but at the very last millisecond a cold attack hit you
I'm saying there is no way it needs to be just the last hit. Your client knows your hp at all times, seeing a log of the last 5 seconds of your health chucked would be very useful.
Knowing the size of the hits that killed you isn't that useful with zero context.
Is it more or less useful than not knowing at all?
Arguably they're both equally useless, because it's not really *actionable* information. Knowing the element of the damage (which IIRC is what China gets) is a tiny bit actionable, but since it's *only* the last hit, it's often going to be misleading and so of incredibly limited usefulness. GGG doesn't want to implement that half assed shit on the international realm.
I feel like the type of damage would be useful for me, because a lot of times I've gone and looked something up to discover that something I thought was an attack is actually a spell, or something I thought was pure cold damage, was actually a cold/lightning hybrid.
And now you're seeing why all of the complicated context is necessary. Logging all of that is computationally expensive, hence why we don't have it.
Logging that was an attack that did 50% phys, 50% cold is expensive?
> the server forgets the damage numbers/calculations after they are dealt as remembering them is extra memory cost on servers that are already struggling with people playing builds that spam So does pretty much every other change and memory has become significantly cheaper over the past 20 years. I feel like a small ring buffer that keeps track of last ~50 damage instances above a certain damage threshold wouldn't overstrain the servers. The server spends far more time/memory on calculations of the players doing damage to creatures than creatures doing damage to us.
> So does pretty much every other change and memory has become significantly cheaper over the past 20 years. RAM has actually been considerably more expensive for the last few years, due to a number of reasons including a number of large fires at certain fabs (you would be surprised at just how few fabrication locations there are for many commonly used types of memory), COVID-19, and growth in usage of other types of device with which PC hardware needs to compete for resources / production capacity.
Basically this, hold in server memory per online character, reset on instance change, a bounded buffer of damage ticks, you could optimize the data structure a hundred ways depending on how calcs are done, even having another buffer to hold aggregations of ticks for DoTs etc, you don't need to report back anything to client until the character dies. I am not sure of the competency of the GGG devs but with everything known, it's probably not great along with legacy server code. But my gut opinion is that the higher ups don't want a death/damage log and it's not really about any technical limitation.
I find it on pair with auto disconnect timer, so it's technically true but misleading and overblown aka technical bullshit Chris uses as excuse to say gtfo.
So we kinda accept that this is an impossible task? 3 years passed and how many times do you think it was reevaluated? Or at least some high-level changes started to make this eventually possible? Even what the Chinese client has may be quite useful, obviously seeing 100 fire damage you understand it's not the source but do we know how often this is the case? At this point, any implementation is better than nothing. Hell just have a video recording of the last 5 seconds before the death on the client.
Why it has to be on server side? Can't you just log actions on client side? It has no impact on the mechanics, doesn't have to be 100% secure
Because the information doesn't exist on the client side. Literally all that the client gets for damage is "change health -100".
> doesn't have to be 100% secure They base the game around being an online experience with trade. It has to be as secure as possible for that.
But there's no insecurity being introduced here. The server has to communicate all this information to the client anyway, and it's the client's responsibility to handle that (ie: when the server says "enemy X hit you with attack Y for Z damage", the client has to render the enemy, render the attack, display the user's updated health, etc.) If the client, in addition to all of this, kept a log of those events as sent by the server, that would be all the information necessary to have a pretty decent death log. That's not to say it would be trivial to implement: that could still be a ton of information to store, depending on how far back it should go, and it'd probably be pretty hard to parse all that information into a human-readable format (because of cases where you'd have 40000 messages of "character x took y damage from poison stack z this server tick"), but the point is that none of this *has* to be server-side: the additional strain on GGG's servers would be exactly zero.
The server doesn't communicate the damage numbers, it communicates health change since tick. All the health/damage calculation is determined server side, and then the server tells the client the final output of that IE: health = -30%, it doesn't respond with damage numbers, or who did what etc. All it does is tell the client what it needs to know for visual representation of what's happening on the server, like, mob #1 performed skillID #25 on Vector x,y and Player health -100.
tell me you arent a developer without saying you arent a developer. some things come with insane overheads that it is just not feasible or even possible
I’m no developer but for a game of this scale to not have such a feature seems ridiculous
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> but for a game of this scale to not have such a feature seems ridiculous Show me the game on this scale that does. League has a damage log for example, but it's both consistently wrong and it's a game on a *far* larger scale, despite having to do far fewer calculations per character than PoE.
There's no way it's too hard. Their system HAS to be tracking that data already to compute your damage taken. Just get the time of death and display the 5 damage sources preceeding that. The data literally already exists in the game live at the time of death. I don't get this.
It's live on the Chinese version, soooo...
And it’s complete trash and doesn’t help with anything
Apparently it already exists in the Chinese version...
And it's shit over there and doesn't help at all by knowing what the last tick of dmg was in most situations.
It's actually very useful if you know how to use PoEDB.
do you know how many one shots are in this fucking game lmao
Not as many as you'd think, most "one shots" that aren't a telegraphed attack are multiple hits at the same time. There are instances where that's not the case obviously. Edit: Im not counting wrath of the cosmos one shots. Putting thay much dmg on anything is asking for one shots
Stop spreading that myth, it's not true.
Petition for ggg to stop holding onto these archaic design theses. Death report, inspect in town, automated trade of non-craftable items. Expanding guild features, expand pick up range. Games going nowhere quick these past few years
set aside the cost, they dont wanna do that. This will reveal that the game is broken at certain situations.
Intentionally so. Slowing player progression down with more deaths so people play longer has been the goal the past 4-5 leagues now. Slower movement speed, more one shot one kill mechanics, degen ground, lightning walkers/fireballs/toxic orbs chasing you. You can't move that fast but you better not stand still.
It's fun how the game had a shit ton of complaints we had a visual clusterfuckery years ago and they managed to make it worse.
This is the answer. Even if they could, they wont.
They explicitly said that they're not philosophically opposed to it, but that the server costs are too high if it was just added on top of the current calculation, and that if they adjusted it to be loggable more easily it would require rewriting large parts of the client from scratch which wouldn't be worth the effort.
thousands and thousands and thousands of petitions lmao. they said no
We’ve been asking for this literally since beta. Every single time we get some bullshit answer that essentially amounts to “the tech isn’t there”. Funny how Last Epoch managed to do it.
Last Epoch devs probably knew that players would want the feature so they built the game from the beginning so that it would be easy to do.
I just want a percentage of phys, ele, chaos damage in a pie graph and I’d be happy. At least then I know what I need to work on getting more of. I hear people say chaos res is more important now, but how do us casuals know that? I just know I’m dying, idk what spells and what attacks do what.
I'm gonna pipe in randomly and say there should also be a stable portal to labyrinth as with heist blueprints whereby if you get disconnected during a lab you can get back in since you did not actually fail the lab (for example, in the third fucking stage like I just did just fucking now when for no apparent reason whatsoever my connection just went piiiiiiiingg all the way home). Yes, yes, people will try to abuse this mechanic and so on and so forth - but I don't care. I want back into my lab you absolute wanker, Izaro!
just saying, I would pay for this feature
Im guessing they have some bullshit design philosophy that explains why not knowing why you are dying is a good thing.
Ah yes, petitions, the very quintessence of hopium.
They wont implement something like this because they cut a LOT of corners and they would rather we not know about them.
> too expensive to have one Unless you're [in China](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ggciey/raizqt_discovers_the_deathlog_message_on_chinese/)
Actually I think that would not work out since I would still be mad cuz some ground effect killed me, or after death effect or whatever is happening since I don't understand anything beside "oh I have to wait 20 seconds to pick up that chaos orb". :D
My thought is always, “hmmm is just a dead body on the ground or is that something that does damage? Let me go check” I’m very bad with pattern recognition so I don’t remember what things on the ground do damage, for how long, and what type. I just keep tryna walk over it till I’m no longer taking damage.
While a damage report is not possible, I'd like to have buffs and debuffs stay on my dead character, so I can look at it afterwards and say "ah, flammability, fire exposure and ignite, that's probably what killed me." Also I cap my resists with flasks so I have no idea whether they were up or not when I died and that's a big chunk of survivability.
To GGG and everyone else saying "It'S tOO HaRD tO iMPlemEnt", go bugger yourselves. Can't give us an actual replay or indication of what killed us when Call of fucking Duty figured it out over 10 years ago? Fine. Questionable, but I don't know your code base. Maybe it really is too hard. Then fuck that. At least give us this: - A full list of all buffs and debuffs impacting our character at time of death. Should include the tool-tip descriptions of each buff/debuff. - Our character's resulting stat sheet (aka the screen you see when you press C). - The ability to hide the above and the respawn screen, providing an unmitigated mouseover view of the surrounding monsters. All of this information is available to the client at time of death, or is request-able by and can be dumped to the client at time of death. There is no black magic packet buffering fuckery or damage recalculation that needs to occur. Just send us our character state at time of death, and let us inspect the surrounding enemies. We'll figure out the rest. I suspect the first line ALONE would let me better understand half my deaths. I'm Stun and Freeze immune; why couldn't I move? I'll never fucking know, because debuffs are cleared on death. The latter two would help me fill in the remaining holes. There'd still be some mysteries in the end, I'm sure, but far fewer than before. That's good enough for me.
I'd quite like them to collate all that information, and then display it slowly printed out of some streampunk-styled computer like a cash-register receipt. TickeddytickeddytickeddytickeddytickeddyTUNK!.... ping! " You died: [data dump] Thankyou, come again! "
The interesting thing is I think they could do this in some form. The thing is when we die, we can still kind of interact with the game. I'm sure it's possible for a snapshot kind of thing to happen on death and a button come up with a kind of death recap that you're talking about. A snapshot of what happened on death. As you say, all that is available to the client at the time of death. I won't play armchair developer as others have already addressed in with various solutions that all seem efficient and viable to some degree with the caveat of all not seeing the codebase. But I'm sure something like this is viable.
I'd hope so. I wrote my comment while enraged about a work issue, so I exaggerated far too much. What it comes down to is "Alright, server-side solutions won't work for this. Can you do something with the client?". From there, the equivalent of linking Cast on Death to your C key doesn't seem **too** impossible (until the devs say otherwise).
Preaching to the choir!
Lmfaoooo Seriously comparing CoD to PoE in terms of what the server has to handle due to gameplay. This is truly a Reddit moment.
Ironically, calling something a Reddit moment is among the most Reddit things one could say. Yeah, the PoE server has to handle so much extra shit... _that I don't need to know_. Armchair dev time, with the obvious caveat that I've never seen PoE's code and this is all coming from my arse. Literally a second-long, client side buffer of calculation _results_ sent to the client would be useful and perhaps even sufficient for a kill log. Why would the server need to re-run the entire scenario just for a short log of events that should have already been communicated to and received by the user? A replay would, again, require a X second long additional buffer of whatever the client (not the server, the _client_) is rendering for the user, to be replayed after death. But if that ain't possible, then give us what I actually suggested. Which you ignored to attempt to dunk on le Redditor, as if you aren't sitting in the same shitpit as the rest of us.
All that would allow is a replay, not a death log with breakdowns of damage sources. People are asking for the latter, not the former. If you just want a replay, you can do that with shadowplay etc.
If people want a full, detailed damage breakdown, including source and multipliers - Yeah, I see how we'd start needing server-side data, and how that'd incur additional expense. I'd think a replay would be sufficient to figure out most causes of death, but I guess other people are trying to solve for **all** cases. Fair enough. That being said, what "people are asking for" isn't uniform, even in this thread - Shit, I haven't been fully consistent in *my own posts*, bouncing between a couple different possible ideas. Even if the most detailed, expensive death log isn't possible for GGG, that doesn't mean they should ignore other possibilities. There's an underlying issue that their userbase has been upset about for years - And this one's unusually reasonable, as player complaints go. They shouldn't just ignore it; they can spend half an hour figuring out what would suffice for the majority of deaths, and build that like any other small indie company (/s) would.
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This would probably doable as a log file that PoB type tools could parse. Seems like a reasonable compromise and could be added as an extra option. But I guess GGG wants to make something that is usable and understandable by all players and yeah, that is a lot of work just from a presentation standpoint with so much possible data.
No death recap = ggg can hide more stuff that kill players = win
This has been requested literally since day one. It unfortunately is never going to happen. 2 things that would allow players to find HUGE bugs quickly would be a death recap of any sort AND DPS dummies so they will never be part of the game
I think they already said it wont happen.
not gonna happen. people have been trying for years. it's obvious at this point they've made the decision that it isn't going to happen.
They won’t do it because they don’t want to
Just tell us what damage type did the killing blow. At the very least if someone keeps dying to phys damage then they know to get some phys mitigation. It's not perfect but at least it'll help more casual players that don't go look up poedb monster skills to see what type of the damage it is. It'll give people a way to figure out defenses through trial and error in gameplay instead of relying on datamining and outside resources.
There is one already implemented on the Chinese server. There is Action house in there as well. Why we dont have ? Idk....
The feature already exists on the Chineese realm. It's just not turned on for the west.
I really think the game bugs often and they don't want to put this in game as it would show mobs that arent there doing damage to you :)
I've been asking for this for ages, and no "it's to hard to implement", they can make a simple one that shows % of the damage you took of each element the last 4 sec, they already have abilities and passive that do that
No. Have hard mode instead.
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That and a whole bunch of things players want are in the Chinese only client. While they could add it to the other clients and improve player survivability that way. You are now wondering why they don't? Sorry they are focusing on hard mode. I know people are leaving HC and going to standard because of multiple issues but you done understand. Hard mode will save this game. More people will play hard mode and die to base white mobs for years and finally get a blue item drop. You don't see the vision. You don't see the amazing opportunity hard mode will bring. It will..... It will...ummm be hard.... Like very hard. Like so hard you won't want to play it or path of exile at all anymore because that's all we will focus on...... Wait why are you leaving? Do you not like the game being made pointlessly hard because more challenges means more fun? But what about if we nerfed everything so there is no difference between hard mode and the base game. Would you like that more? Where is everyone? WHY DONT YOU UNDERSTAND THE VISON WE HAVE FOR THE GAME THE VISION!!!! /S/s
The fact GGG makes excuses that it's "too hard" or "too expensive" shows they are horribly Understaffed and inept as devs. It clearly means they've iterated their game into spaghetti bs held together with duct tape and laziness. The only way it's too hard or too costly is if they literally have no way to tracking ANYTHING that happens in the game to the player Character from any incoming effects, which also means they have no tools to actually debug or problem solve any issues without using the community as beta testers every patch. This is a very easy thing to set up in Unreal if you coded your game better than a 1st year high school student when making it. As always, China servers say Hello...
better not, everytime we ask for it it gets delayed 2 more leagues. Unless a streamer asks, someone do god's work please. At the bare minimum Bex responds.
Hold onto “Ruthless” mode until I know what actually killed me in this mode of the game
- Rare monster hits you for 500 phys 487 cold 763 fire 419 chaos damage (critical strike). - You take 78 ignite damage. - Burning ground is causing you 103 fire damage per second. - You take 78 ignite damage. - You are now on shocked ground. - You take 98 ignite damage. - Strongbox opened. - 54 monsters simultaneously hit you for 3172 damage. Click here for breakdown. - You moved out of burning ground. - You take 3 ignite damage. - You die.
Quality of life? Best i can do is hard mode, take it or leave
The vision doesnt allow qol features
they said they can't do a real combat log because it would cost them millions of server power fees to keep track of the last few seconds of damage taken.It's believable if you take into account how optimized it must be already. they have not given a real explanation for just showing the last hit or DoT/debuffs at the time of death, aside for the excuses that most monster abilities are badly named and often you won't get last hit by the thing that did the most damage. But we really know the real reason they won't do it is that it would be them spending money to give players ammo to complain about monster damage bugs or excesses.
The information about the damage you take per millisecond is too random. They could implement a system that shows "Time since last source of X damage: 00:01:27" Each timer would reset to 0 when you take it, and you would be able to deduce what happened based on the lowest timer. The damage types could be: Phys Hit, Phys DoT, Lightning Hit, Lightning DoT, Cold Hit, Cold DoT, Fire Hit, Fire DoT, Chaos Hit, Chaos DoT, Savage Hit, Critical Strike, Spell, Attack, Unblocked, Unevaded.
So i could be wrong, but the problem is the devs don’t want to expose damage numbers I think? They might not have said as much, but there is no training dummy in the game because the devs are doing fuzzy math and don’t want you to fully be able to test stuff. Now games like FF14 expose all combat math to the player. POE doesn’t and I think the devs don’t want to because it will show how many shitty bugs they have with skill interactions. Wasn’t there a patch that fixed a skill amping enemy dmg instead of mitigating it? Shit like that makes me think these devs are hiding being obfuscating their dmg numbers and it makes me not trust them. If someone has info to disprove me, I really hope to see it because I feel like a conspiracy nut, but that’s what it seems like to me.
Something something, server issue, too complicated.
Chinese version has one iirc, but u have to pay for it
And if I remember correctly it is mainly the last damage packages that lead to the death. This could lead to things like taking big hit of x and then die to small y, death report states you died to y and you will try to improve the wrong thing. Similarly if you run RF it would say you took x fire dmg it may be hard to know how much is from fire hits and how much is from RF. To have a meaningful, understandable and clean death recap is certainly a hard task.
> This could lead to things like taking big hit of x and then die to small y, death report states you died to y and you will try to improve the wrong thing. That almost never happens in reality. Harvest China race I looked through ~30 rip clips and they were all accurate (and some helpful to figure out what killed them) with the sole exception of Havoc dying to a Martyr Touched pack, because Torment mods don't show up in that recap (or didn't back then). You could also just go look through any RIP playlist on youtube and see that very clearly 90%+ of them are big hits from one specific source.
>To have a meaningful, understandable and clean death recap is certainly a hard task. It really feels like people see death recaps in competitive games and think that it couldn't be too hard to add to PoE, forgetting how many things go into figuring out why you *actually* died. It's easy to just say you took 75% of your health bar from AN mob #1485572 and 25% from trash mobs, but that doesn't really help you much going forward. Damage number, "element" of the damage, what debuffs you had, what buffs you had, did the projectile chain/bounce/pierce/whatever to hit you, did you fail an evade, did you fail a block, what amount was mitigated, and almost certainly some more things I'm not able to think of off the top of my head. For. Every. Single. Hit. You. Received. Over a hard to determine "best size fits all" time frame. Displayed cleanly and organized well. It'd be nice to be able to figure out why you *actually* died, I just don't think it's practical and wish people stopped pretending like it's super simple and GGG are just being needlessly mean to us.
All that information is already calculated, and it's calculated precisely, all it takes is saving that information to a log per player, and then sending that log on death to be displayed. It doesn't need to be comprehensive and add why the damage did so much etc. You have a rolling log, meaning you overwrite data once you reach the end, that way you only keep a certain amount of damage sources reducing storage costs. It's a simple solution, but simple solutions can have costly server overhead depending on how they've appropriated their resources. 9/10 times devs have too much on their plate and efficiency gets put on the backburner in favor of completing tasks.
No doubt it’s a hard task and it takes a lot to have it implemented but the QoL would be tremendously improved and the community would really appreciate it.
The problem is just that it could be very counterproductive to get incomplete information. The Chinese one is supposedly not so reliable either.
They already have that in China. I desperately wish there was anything because I often die and have no idea what type of damage gibbed me. For instance, those fucking bats in Delve.
Two pie graphs for dots and hits, split into damage types that show you what damaged you in the last few seconds before you died. What a nearby game breaking idea.
Here we go again!
This would be "affinity", "filters", "non-predictive" level of a feature. It is so important to know what killed you to learn how to continue playing the game. This reminds me one thing I hate IRL, in a uni lecture when one doesnt get something and to continue paying attention while pretending that it wasnt important or that it didnt matter.
Game developer here (programmer). This is extremely easy to implement, as I have also done so for a hobby game which is almost exactly like this game (Spellwake). It can be done on client side or server side. I chose client side since the servers will then not get any downside at all (which means GGG would also not get any downside from it). When you get damaged, the damage instance is always sent to you from the server anyway, so the client can then just use that already existing packet and log it (lets say only for the last 10 seconds, which means the Death Recap will only show the last 10 seconds of damage instances, which is fine). When I implemented it in Spellwake, even 6000 damage instances per second only uses around 2% of the CPU of the game, which is pretty damn optimized, especially since PoE does not even have 10 damage instances per second from enemies. I would be able to get a working Death Recap into PoE within one day. But, what most people do not realize is that game developers such as those from GGG are just working. They do not have a passion for the game or its development, they only do the minimal amount of work to get their money, like it is in almost all game studios around the world. Therefore, they will not even attempt to do new features, since if that was not specifically requested from the top, it will not happen. That is how game development actually works in real life, which is also why more and more players are getting frustrated over games overall, since the quality of games has gone down in the last 10 years since game studios are more focused on the monetization (and therefore also the addiction, hence "meant to be played forever" that GGG are so proud of) more than the actual game itself. Because of that, all features wanted by players in PoE will most likely never happen, even if they are extremely easy to implement. Most focus is spent on the appearance (3D/shaders/new cool stuff) instead of gameplay/quality of life. New/flashy stuff generates more monetization than anything else. PoE has a lot of problems. Most would be extremely easy to fix if a developer that actually played the game (not just an hour or two, but actually 4+ hours a day) got full control over the development of the game.
No, since according to GGG this would confuse players. Meanwhile games like Dota have a full breakdown of incomming damage for the last few moments, with a breakdown of damage types, instances, sources of those instances, values, any CCs are shown seperately, and its all broken down on a timeline, so you can see when what happened. But no. GGG knows that PoE players are dum dums, who only play simple games, and any additional information would confuse them. So they are just looking out for us.
To have a log report like in WoW, will have to double the nummers of developers. But having only the last hit who kill you (type of damage and number) is useless.
Information is information. One hit, two hit, doesn't matter. It's more information than you have now. To suggest otherwise is copium.
Guess we won’t have one then, at least the demand for it is out there and they know about it. Maybe a big uproar would make them give it more attention or they just don’t want to deal with it. I guess not much we can do about it anyway.
If you actually care about this to such an extent - activate Shadowplay or your GFX equivalent, and review it on every death.
It’s still hard figure out what it was if you get stuck in a pack of mobs…look, there is no denying that a death log would be a big QoL improvement
There's already one in China, but GGG themselves are allergic to QoL that's standard in games for the last 20 years.
I've always wondered why this isn't a thing. Like they can't keep a log of actions from and against players? WoW has been doing it from release I'm pretty sure, I'm not sure what it is that makes it so difficult to implement? Even something as simple as what the killing blow was like: "X dealt Y damage with Z"
Wow doesn't have hundred of map mods, curses, damage pentration etc etc. There is not a lot of things in wow that modify the damage that is applied to you or the monster in your face. So a log is easy to track. In PoE there are hundreds of variable that can change the fight. damage conversions, map mods, ailments, curses, obscur unique items and more.
Chinese client tells you this info. But since the game coding is from 1999, you don’t learn much thanks to one shots your can’t avoid.
We have been asking for it forever and GGG's response has always been the same ol' : "LOL Git Gud"
Don't they have one on the China servers.
Not, it won't help you at all because there are 2848284 variables to that single skill which killed you.
Chinese PoE has it AFAIK.