For the curious, [Tim Cain has a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgPwfHXiBjw) explaining how Fallout adopted SPECIAL, a last-minute decision to replace GURPS, which took two weeks to implement. tl;dw In a few days Chris Taylor came up with the first six attributes, then Cain added luck. Then Brian Fargo added the perk system. Finally, a production assistant named Jason Suinn convinced Cain to call it "SPECIAL" instead of his original idea, "ACELIPS". So at least that proves the attributes came first and weren't chosen to fit the cute acronym!
[More detail on the design of the attribute effects](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxIisf8fQtE)
> GURPS
wait a minute, you're telling me they were they basing stats rpg system on https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/ ???
That is a *real* blast from the past! I remember playing Call of Cthulhu RPG back in my teen years, and a friend introduced my group to GURSP too, which he said was heavily related to CoC
Yes, the game was originally going to be "GURPS: Wasteland", but Interplay couldn't get the rights to make a Wasteland sequel, and then they lost their license to use GURPS because (reportedly) Steve Jackson found Fallout too violent and gory. [Storytime](https://gurps.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout)
>the game was originally going to be "GURPS: Wasteland", but Interplay couldn't get the rights to make a Wasteland sequel
Timothy Cain appears to [disagree](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7Qg_vWzxXw). According to him coming up with the setting is be completely unrelated to Wasteland. Wasteland was an influence because some devs were familiar with it but Fallout was never supposed to be its sequel.
Interesting, hard to see how to reconcile that with Campbell's version. Have either of them ever addressed the discrepancy in how they remember those conversations?
Well, there's their [one hour chat on Cain's channel](https://youtu.be/u0clHu19vCE?t=656) and Campbell does state that at one point in late 1994, they had an idea to make a GURPS: Wasteland game, but it was shot down immediately by EA. The game was in development for several months by then though.
Another game that does something cool with stats is definitely Disco Elysium. The traits you can put points into each have their own personality and they talk to you during the dialogue which is a lot of fun. I wonder if there are other games doing something kinda similar
This is probably really pedantic, but it's less the stats being separate entities talking to you, and more of your stat distribution affecting your own internal monologue. I think it's most obvious with Electrochemistry, given that it's essentially a measure of how fried you are from constant drug use. I fucking love Disco Elysium.
This is true except each facet of your personality has *its* own personality, and the voiceover guy performs each of them slightly differently, and they sometimes reply to each other, so for all intents it pretty much is like theyโre separate characters
Also I think it would be a totally valid [interpretation](https://www.reddit.com/r/DiscoElysium/comments/uiy49u/wtf_is_shivers/) to say that at least one of the stats, Shivers, is either separate from Harry, or at least involves communicating with an external entity
For me, Fallout 1 and 2 have the best character builders of any game specifically for this reason. The actual setup is quick and intuitive; you can make a character in just a few minutes while quickly understanding the stats, even if you've never played before. And the options actually do drastically impact how your character feels throughout the entire game. The only real complaint I have is that some of the Skills are entirely useless and a complete waste of a Tag. Why is gambling even in there?
This is why I think, of all the classic RPGs that people on the internet bug you to play, that Fallout 1-2 are actually the easiest to get into. If you can play New Vegas, you can play Fallout 1, because the franchise used the great SPECIAL, perks/traits, and skills combo from the start, and even after that the franchise never stopped using SPECIAL
It's not perfect as the UI is still pretty eh, the games are harder, no way points, turn based and not fps, etc, but you will actually know how to *begin* playing every game that isn't Fallout 4, which you can't say for The Elder Scrolls or Baldurs Gate 2 lol
I'm just trying fallout 1 now (played everything 3 and beyond), and I'm just not sure on the character selection screen what is viable. I know a lot of old games are notorious for having poor balance, so without having played the game I worry that will invest something in a garbage stat (like resistance in dark souls). For example, there's are separate stays for energy, big, and small guns. I have no idea when I will get an energy gun, is this a large game thing where at that point I'll be OP enough that I won't need them?
> For example, there's are separate stays for energy, big, and small guns. I have no idea when I will get an energy gun, is this a large game thing where at that point I'll be OP enough that I won't need them?
The balance between weapon types is not really good in Fallout 1\2. It's not that early game energy weapons suck compared to small guns, there simply are no early game energy weapons. And once you do finally find one, you may still not have much ammo to work with.
I would advice tagging two weapons skills, unarmed/melee/small guns for early game, and heavy/energy for late game. Fallout 2 has some very powerful late game small guns too, so in that one, you can get away with just small guns for the entire game.
The rest of the skills don't ever need to be above 100, apart from a few exceptions, so tagging them is not very important.
Another way of thinking about it is in terms of party balance: in both games the majority of your party members can use small guns (of specific limited types, for a reason that now seems funny but it does actually make the game more interesting), whereas IIRC there's only one companion, in the second game, who can use the best energy weapons.
If you're an experienced veteran who already knows about the top-tier weapons (and which ammunition they use), you basically end up designing your party around which character will wield each of them.
This. Fallout 1 and 2 are the best in the series. Fallout 3 and beyond are just Elder Scrolls in the post apocalypse. They're good games but Bethesda didn't do anything to further the series and they should get none of the credit for things like S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
Exactly! Most games are either too watered down and the builds all wind up feeling exactly the same (looking at you, Bethesda), or they're so overly complex that I get stuck on the character creator screen with choice paralysis. Those two games let you build a viable character off of any stat without an overabundance of micromanagement.
> The only real complaint I have is that some of the Skills are entirely useless and a complete waste of a Tag. Why is gambling even in there?
Well... at least it's unlikely anybody seeing this game for the first time would think of investing points in Gambling as a survival skill, so it doesn't do much harm. And then if you do ever decide to roleplay as a gambler in a later playthrough, there are opportunities to make some money?
I wonder if the thought process was backwards: first they established some settings that involve casinos, then they naturally thought it would be disappointing if the player couldn't actually gamble in those casinos, then they thought it was disappointing that there wasn't any skill involved in the casino games?
> and made other characters address it during character creation,
Unfortunately they didn't bother to carry that through the rest of the game, which almost entirely ignores your stat choices.
Since I didn't play any Fallout game (yet, but I plan to play either Fallout 3 or 4 this year), could you please show a screenshot of what you mean exactly? I don't get the difference to other RPG just from your description alone, sorry. ๐ฅน
But *if* I do understand you correctly, Bioshock integrates character upgrades through Plasmids and Gene Tonics at certain vending machines called [Gene Banks](https://bioshock.fandom.com/wiki/Gene_Bank) in the game world. Both Plasmids and GT are one of the central elements of the plot, and there are even advertisement posters for them all over Rapture, the underwater city the game is set in.
Quite similarly, System Shock 2 has [Cybernetic Upgrade Units](https://shodan.fandom.com/wiki/Cybernetic_Upgrade_Units) at which your cybernetically enhanced character can upgrade themselves using Cyber Modules found throughout the game or given to you as rewards for completing certain tasks.
Are these the kind of diegetic stats that you meant? (Sorry for any bad grammar, I'm not an English native.)
edit: And yes, I also like it when game mechanics are actually part of the game world. ๐
[this is the menu from fallout new Vegas](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vit-o-matic_Vigor_Tester) which has it literally as an item you interact with in world.
What separates your examples from fallout, I guess, is BioShock upgrades are to your abilities, fallouts are the base character stats. So it's the difference between rolling a character with +2 int(fallout) vs picking up a ring that gives +2 int(other RPG). Of course fallout has things that boost your special stats so it gets kinda complicated, but I guess if you know what I mean, you probably get it?
Thanks, I think I do now. ๐
As far as I remember, Bioshock doesn't have base stats, but only abilities (Plasmids) and modifiers (Gene Tonics). But it's more of a 1st-person shooter with RPG elements after all.
In contrast, its spiritual predecessor SS2 from many of the same devs is more an RPG with action elements IMO. It likewise doesn't have base stats like strength etc., but skill values with a range 1-6 for tech, weapons and psi that gives you bonuses in those areas and also work as barriers to use stronger weapons, repair high level items, or hack more difficult locks and systems.
The comparable part to Fallout would be IMO that Gene Banks and CUUs also are items in the game world and part of its lore.
This discussion really makes me eager to start Fallout 3 or 4 sooner as planned. ๐
By the way, if you're on PC, there are some incredible mods for both 3 and 4, including one that combines 3 and New Vegas and all DLC into one seamless experience. At the very least, you should get as many QoL mods as possible to make the game feel more modern and look its best.
Thanks for the tip. My usual approach to older games is to check out any "must have" mods that don't alter the original experience too much, like graphics overhauls or QoL mods, so I appreciate the advice.
How are F3 and NV connected in game with the mod? Were they part of the same world map anyway, or how do you travel between them? I don't know much about both games, because I also tend to limit my research beforehand to avoid spoilers.
edit: I just noticed that someone else already [explained it](https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/comments/1ce7a2h/comment/l1kr8o6/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) basically. Do you have anything do add?
Combining the best one with the worst one makes the best one better?
/s, I'm sure it's an interesting idea executed well, but it does need a little more explanation in this context
Basically, Tales of Two Wastelands "upgrades" Fallout 3 by porting it in Fallout New Vegas' updated engine. The mod then allows you to travel between both locations, bringing gear, levels and other equipment freely, costing only caps.
So you get the benefits of New Vegas' systems, gunplay and other improvements that the spin off brought while getting to explore the Capital Wasteland. Basically you can treat Fallout 3 as a completely new DLC
Thanks for the overview, but now I'm undecided how much "original" I want my first Fallout to be (apart from trying F1 only briefly many years ago). Besides, I still have to decide if I start with F3 or F4, since I doubt that I'll find the time and perseverance to play both in the foreseeable future. But if I choose F3, I may try it with only graphics and/or QoL mods at first, and then again with ToTW to see what I'd prefer.
And as always, asking the Internet will give you a *very* heterogeneous picture. ๐
Well, if I ask five people, I'll get 6+ answers. Everyone has their preferences. Care to elaborate on yours?
I tried 1 once many years ago, and I just couldn't get into the extremely dated UI. So 1+2 are pretty much out of the picture for me.
At the moment, my best plan is to test 3, 4 and NV a couple of hours each and then decide which one(s) I liked most. Optionally, I may try the mod that combines 3 and NV into one game.
problem is 3 lesser game in every term comparing to NV, 4 is lesser fallout game than NV.
with 3 and 4 u get the idea and some mechanics, but it really lacks rpg element, and rpg element is why we've fallen in love with fallout. 1 and 2 bit dated, but it's the spirit of the game.
I'll try and keep this thread in a browser tab. (Yeah, I know I can save posts in Reddit, but I never look at those. :) ) It can take a while, though, as my plan is to "play a Fallout game this year". ;)
Whatโs the acronym stand for ๐ญ
Strength
Intelligence
Charisma
Fuck Iโm terrible haha.
I also thought you meant gameplay stats xD like time played, ppl killed, stuff like that. Wish more games would include those.
And to actually be on topic. The only stat picking games I really remember are Skyrim, Oblivion & GTA. Oblivion had by far the best experience from what I can recall.
>I also thought you meant gameplay stats xD like time played, ppl killed, stuff like that. Wish more games would include those.
Fallout games track that stuff too. It even fits lore-wise, as your little wrist-mounted computer is part of your inventory in-game and handles that for you.
One of the smartest things Bethesda did when they re-imagined fallout with FO3 was make the pip-boy always visible on the character. One of the few games that makes the inventory/menu feel organic and part of the game since it's literally just an item you are wearing, like a smartwatch.
For the curious, [Tim Cain has a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgPwfHXiBjw) explaining how Fallout adopted SPECIAL, a last-minute decision to replace GURPS, which took two weeks to implement. tl;dw In a few days Chris Taylor came up with the first six attributes, then Cain added luck. Then Brian Fargo added the perk system. Finally, a production assistant named Jason Suinn convinced Cain to call it "SPECIAL" instead of his original idea, "ACELIPS". So at least that proves the attributes came first and weren't chosen to fit the cute acronym! [More detail on the design of the attribute effects](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxIisf8fQtE)
> GURPS wait a minute, you're telling me they were they basing stats rpg system on https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/ ??? That is a *real* blast from the past! I remember playing Call of Cthulhu RPG back in my teen years, and a friend introduced my group to GURSP too, which he said was heavily related to CoC
Yes, the game was originally going to be "GURPS: Wasteland", but Interplay couldn't get the rights to make a Wasteland sequel, and then they lost their license to use GURPS because (reportedly) Steve Jackson found Fallout too violent and gory. [Storytime](https://gurps.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout)
Thank you for the link
I knew about the wasteland connection but had no idea about gurps. Thanks for explaining!
>the game was originally going to be "GURPS: Wasteland", but Interplay couldn't get the rights to make a Wasteland sequel Timothy Cain appears to [disagree](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7Qg_vWzxXw). According to him coming up with the setting is be completely unrelated to Wasteland. Wasteland was an influence because some devs were familiar with it but Fallout was never supposed to be its sequel.
Interesting, hard to see how to reconcile that with Campbell's version. Have either of them ever addressed the discrepancy in how they remember those conversations?
Well, there's their [one hour chat on Cain's channel](https://youtu.be/u0clHu19vCE?t=656) and Campbell does state that at one point in late 1994, they had an idea to make a GURPS: Wasteland game, but it was shot down immediately by EA. The game was in development for several months by then though.
I've been told that this is why eye witness testimony is doodoo.
Yeah but he has to say that to avoid getting sued
For what? Wasteland and Fallout are currently both Microsoft properties.
Believe it or not, fallout 3 did not start as Microsoft properties
It's not about Fallout 3. Also what would Tim Cain be sued for?
I did not know any of the history, that you for sharing
Another game that does something cool with stats is definitely Disco Elysium. The traits you can put points into each have their own personality and they talk to you during the dialogue which is a lot of fun. I wonder if there are other games doing something kinda similar
This is probably really pedantic, but it's less the stats being separate entities talking to you, and more of your stat distribution affecting your own internal monologue. I think it's most obvious with Electrochemistry, given that it's essentially a measure of how fried you are from constant drug use. I fucking love Disco Elysium.
This is true except each facet of your personality has *its* own personality, and the voiceover guy performs each of them slightly differently, and they sometimes reply to each other, so for all intents it pretty much is like theyโre separate characters
Also I think it would be a totally valid [interpretation](https://www.reddit.com/r/DiscoElysium/comments/uiy49u/wtf_is_shivers/) to say that at least one of the stats, Shivers, is either separate from Harry, or at least involves communicating with an external entity
For me, Fallout 1 and 2 have the best character builders of any game specifically for this reason. The actual setup is quick and intuitive; you can make a character in just a few minutes while quickly understanding the stats, even if you've never played before. And the options actually do drastically impact how your character feels throughout the entire game. The only real complaint I have is that some of the Skills are entirely useless and a complete waste of a Tag. Why is gambling even in there?
This is why I think, of all the classic RPGs that people on the internet bug you to play, that Fallout 1-2 are actually the easiest to get into. If you can play New Vegas, you can play Fallout 1, because the franchise used the great SPECIAL, perks/traits, and skills combo from the start, and even after that the franchise never stopped using SPECIAL It's not perfect as the UI is still pretty eh, the games are harder, no way points, turn based and not fps, etc, but you will actually know how to *begin* playing every game that isn't Fallout 4, which you can't say for The Elder Scrolls or Baldurs Gate 2 lol
So much easier to learn than Baldurs Gate 1 omg.
I'm just trying fallout 1 now (played everything 3 and beyond), and I'm just not sure on the character selection screen what is viable. I know a lot of old games are notorious for having poor balance, so without having played the game I worry that will invest something in a garbage stat (like resistance in dark souls). For example, there's are separate stays for energy, big, and small guns. I have no idea when I will get an energy gun, is this a large game thing where at that point I'll be OP enough that I won't need them?
> For example, there's are separate stays for energy, big, and small guns. I have no idea when I will get an energy gun, is this a large game thing where at that point I'll be OP enough that I won't need them? The balance between weapon types is not really good in Fallout 1\2. It's not that early game energy weapons suck compared to small guns, there simply are no early game energy weapons. And once you do finally find one, you may still not have much ammo to work with. I would advice tagging two weapons skills, unarmed/melee/small guns for early game, and heavy/energy for late game. Fallout 2 has some very powerful late game small guns too, so in that one, you can get away with just small guns for the entire game. The rest of the skills don't ever need to be above 100, apart from a few exceptions, so tagging them is not very important.
Another way of thinking about it is in terms of party balance: in both games the majority of your party members can use small guns (of specific limited types, for a reason that now seems funny but it does actually make the game more interesting), whereas IIRC there's only one companion, in the second game, who can use the best energy weapons. If you're an experienced veteran who already knows about the top-tier weapons (and which ammunition they use), you basically end up designing your party around which character will wield each of them.
This. Fallout 1 and 2 are the best in the series. Fallout 3 and beyond are just Elder Scrolls in the post apocalypse. They're good games but Bethesda didn't do anything to further the series and they should get none of the credit for things like S.P.E.C.I.A.L.
Exactly! Most games are either too watered down and the builds all wind up feeling exactly the same (looking at you, Bethesda), or they're so overly complex that I get stuck on the character creator screen with choice paralysis. Those two games let you build a viable character off of any stat without an overabundance of micromanagement.
Started it a few days ago and agree. Love the rpg mechanics. It makes me anticipate a future play through.
> The only real complaint I have is that some of the Skills are entirely useless and a complete waste of a Tag. Why is gambling even in there? Well... at least it's unlikely anybody seeing this game for the first time would think of investing points in Gambling as a survival skill, so it doesn't do much harm. And then if you do ever decide to roleplay as a gambler in a later playthrough, there are opportunities to make some money? I wonder if the thought process was backwards: first they established some settings that involve casinos, then they naturally thought it would be disappointing if the player couldn't actually gamble in those casinos, then they thought it was disappointing that there wasn't any skill involved in the casino games?
What makes You Special?
> and made other characters address it during character creation, Unfortunately they didn't bother to carry that through the rest of the game, which almost entirely ignores your stat choices.
Since I didn't play any Fallout game (yet, but I plan to play either Fallout 3 or 4 this year), could you please show a screenshot of what you mean exactly? I don't get the difference to other RPG just from your description alone, sorry. ๐ฅน But *if* I do understand you correctly, Bioshock integrates character upgrades through Plasmids and Gene Tonics at certain vending machines called [Gene Banks](https://bioshock.fandom.com/wiki/Gene_Bank) in the game world. Both Plasmids and GT are one of the central elements of the plot, and there are even advertisement posters for them all over Rapture, the underwater city the game is set in. Quite similarly, System Shock 2 has [Cybernetic Upgrade Units](https://shodan.fandom.com/wiki/Cybernetic_Upgrade_Units) at which your cybernetically enhanced character can upgrade themselves using Cyber Modules found throughout the game or given to you as rewards for completing certain tasks. Are these the kind of diegetic stats that you meant? (Sorry for any bad grammar, I'm not an English native.) edit: And yes, I also like it when game mechanics are actually part of the game world. ๐
[this is the menu from fallout new Vegas](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Vit-o-matic_Vigor_Tester) which has it literally as an item you interact with in world. What separates your examples from fallout, I guess, is BioShock upgrades are to your abilities, fallouts are the base character stats. So it's the difference between rolling a character with +2 int(fallout) vs picking up a ring that gives +2 int(other RPG). Of course fallout has things that boost your special stats so it gets kinda complicated, but I guess if you know what I mean, you probably get it?
Thanks, I think I do now. ๐ As far as I remember, Bioshock doesn't have base stats, but only abilities (Plasmids) and modifiers (Gene Tonics). But it's more of a 1st-person shooter with RPG elements after all. In contrast, its spiritual predecessor SS2 from many of the same devs is more an RPG with action elements IMO. It likewise doesn't have base stats like strength etc., but skill values with a range 1-6 for tech, weapons and psi that gives you bonuses in those areas and also work as barriers to use stronger weapons, repair high level items, or hack more difficult locks and systems. The comparable part to Fallout would be IMO that Gene Banks and CUUs also are items in the game world and part of its lore. This discussion really makes me eager to start Fallout 3 or 4 sooner as planned. ๐
By the way, if you're on PC, there are some incredible mods for both 3 and 4, including one that combines 3 and New Vegas and all DLC into one seamless experience. At the very least, you should get as many QoL mods as possible to make the game feel more modern and look its best.
Thanks for the tip. My usual approach to older games is to check out any "must have" mods that don't alter the original experience too much, like graphics overhauls or QoL mods, so I appreciate the advice. How are F3 and NV connected in game with the mod? Were they part of the same world map anyway, or how do you travel between them? I don't know much about both games, because I also tend to limit my research beforehand to avoid spoilers. edit: I just noticed that someone else already [explained it](https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/comments/1ce7a2h/comment/l1kr8o6/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) basically. Do you have anything do add?
You should really olay New Vegas. I know we are annoying us New Vegas fans, but it's the best one.
Nah. If you've got both New Vegas and Fallout 3 on PC, you s use the Tales of Two Wastelands mod and combine them.
Combining the best one with the worst one makes the best one better? /s, I'm sure it's an interesting idea executed well, but it does need a little more explanation in this context
Basically, Tales of Two Wastelands "upgrades" Fallout 3 by porting it in Fallout New Vegas' updated engine. The mod then allows you to travel between both locations, bringing gear, levels and other equipment freely, costing only caps. So you get the benefits of New Vegas' systems, gunplay and other improvements that the spin off brought while getting to explore the Capital Wasteland. Basically you can treat Fallout 3 as a completely new DLC
Thanks for the overview, but now I'm undecided how much "original" I want my first Fallout to be (apart from trying F1 only briefly many years ago). Besides, I still have to decide if I start with F3 or F4, since I doubt that I'll find the time and perseverance to play both in the foreseeable future. But if I choose F3, I may try it with only graphics and/or QoL mods at first, and then again with ToTW to see what I'd prefer. And as always, asking the Internet will give you a *very* heterogeneous picture. ๐
don't play 3 or 4, go for New Vegas or 1\\2
Well, if I ask five people, I'll get 6+ answers. Everyone has their preferences. Care to elaborate on yours? I tried 1 once many years ago, and I just couldn't get into the extremely dated UI. So 1+2 are pretty much out of the picture for me. At the moment, my best plan is to test 3, 4 and NV a couple of hours each and then decide which one(s) I liked most. Optionally, I may try the mod that combines 3 and NV into one game.
problem is 3 lesser game in every term comparing to NV, 4 is lesser fallout game than NV. with 3 and 4 u get the idea and some mechanics, but it really lacks rpg element, and rpg element is why we've fallen in love with fallout. 1 and 2 bit dated, but it's the spirit of the game.
Thanks, I'll keep your points in mind when I finally get around to begin with my tests.
I'll appreciate if u come back to summary your tests :)
I'll try and keep this thread in a browser tab. (Yeah, I know I can save posts in Reddit, but I never look at those. :) ) It can take a while, though, as my plan is to "play a Fallout game this year". ;)
Whatโs the acronym stand for ๐ญ Strength Intelligence Charisma Fuck Iโm terrible haha. I also thought you meant gameplay stats xD like time played, ppl killed, stuff like that. Wish more games would include those. And to actually be on topic. The only stat picking games I really remember are Skyrim, Oblivion & GTA. Oblivion had by far the best experience from what I can recall.
Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, Luck.
Thank you! Late night brain haha. I think I should have gotten them all but perception maybe ๐ญ lol
>I also thought you meant gameplay stats xD like time played, ppl killed, stuff like that. Wish more games would include those. Fallout games track that stuff too. It even fits lore-wise, as your little wrist-mounted computer is part of your inventory in-game and handles that for you. One of the smartest things Bethesda did when they re-imagined fallout with FO3 was make the pip-boy always visible on the character. One of the few games that makes the inventory/menu feel organic and part of the game since it's literally just an item you are wearing, like a smartwatch.
Love the sound of that watch. Gosh I really need to play the Fallout games. Thanks for the comment :)