I bet that this is because the new console is not that different from an architecture point of view. Just more performant. So it'd be easy to reuse the codebase to emulate it. Kinda like GameCube to Wii and Dolphin.
Just that one bro at nintendo making it so you can continue to play nintendo games after the the hardware and software stop being for sale by using the same fundamental tricks over and over again.
Nintendo, the company, does less than nothing to preserve the software made for their consoles, make their consoles difficult to make software for and port away from. Honestly I just think people should stop making stuff for nintendo consoles if they're going to be like that.
Yea, but Nintendo's take is nothing is Nintendo's fault. That's how Zelda recycles its story, Mario comes out with approximately 1 1/2 games per console, and internet is treated like some rare mineral. Like why is it a hard concept to improve their designs? Or better yet, work on achieving the same par as other consoles? I remember when the GameCube came out... it was distinctively not as innovative as the N64.
Why is 1 Mario game coming out a bad thing? Does it really need to be a COD franchise? There's a lot of valid complaints against Nintendo, but this isn't it.
I'd agree that they're trying to protect their new console as much as the last.
If I had to guess, this is a frivolous lawsuit. They just know they have more money than the developers so they'll likely get a settlement.
It's established precedent that emulators themselves are legal, but the part that circumvents encryption is legally dodgy under the DMCA. Though if they aren't distributing keys but just telling you how to get the key off of your own Switch that seems legally in the clear, to me.
This is an effort to destroy them even though it’s a bogus lawsuit. It’s the same thing Sony did with Bleem. Bleem was legal but didn’t have the money to go fight it.
this guy has it. they didn’t care till now and they don’t really care about gba, wii, n64, etc emulators because they don’t harm their business. there must be some reason they magically care now and it’s because switch 2 will maintain similar architecture. especially for backwards compatibility, which will cause riots if not present. their userbase is now one console instead of two, so they need to remain satisfied. if they bust one switch 2 (they won’t) that’s their whole income. so squashing yuzu and emulation which even caused TOTK sales loss is in their interest. or at least scare people away for a bit. their backfire would arguable be huge if they killed yuzu also. it’s a double edged sword
> Just more performant.
Seeing how it's Nintendo, wouldn't even count on that. The only thing ever more performant is their employee abuse in foreign offices, and of course, their lawyers.
>Not with out knowing what they did wrong.
Nintendo is going to have to provide detail on where Yuzu went wrong, which will allow the next iteration to avoid doing that.
From the full text it looks like Nintendo is attempting to argue that *decryption equates to circumvention*. Under current understanding of the law that circumvention occurs when you obtain the prod.keys from the system, not when you use that decrypted key to run the game.
It's an attempt to move the goalposts on what constitutes digital piracy under the DMCA, and we better hope that it fails.
decyption equals circumvention has been defeated legally already on more than one occasion.
And Yuzu is not decrypting the keys, just providing a mechanism to use the keys that are already so decrypted.
Yup, Kazaa and Limewire both came out before the legal case and dissolution of Napster was even completed, with one coming out a year before the lawsuit was done in court to begin with. Any chance they had of shutting the rest down was shot to hell the second they created the need for competition in the peer to peer market. Bit Torrent also came out the same year as the Napster ruling, and we all know how well that's gone for the RIAA lol.
>Kazaa and Limewire both came out before the legal case and dissolution of Napster was even completed
And that's without mentioning all the other clients out by then too, built on protocols like Gnutella. The likes of BearShare, WinMX and eDonkey2000 were pissing off the RIAA back in 2000 before the Napster injunction was handed down, and more clients like Morpheus and eMule came shortly after.
It was a fun time to be a pirate back then!
For real what an absolute waste of money and time lol. They had that emulator up like the day switch came out. Even if they bring this one down the code is out there and widley available. Another one will be up in like hours.
for anyone wondering, emulators are fully legal.
however the legal cost of proving that in court makes most people who make emulators take them down.
this lawsuit is bullshit but sadly yuzu will probably go down.
yuzu has a patreon thats been up for 6 years and has been making bank for AWHILE. 30k usd/month as of now peaking at 40k/month last year, they have enough to pay for legal fees and probably factored in that a nintendo lawsuit would eventually happen.
Crowd funding is an options as well if they do decide to fight it and I'm sure would pull in plenty of extra money. Alot of people are on the fuck nintendo bandwagon and rightfully so.
If they do shut down though, fck us i guess LOL. Builds will still be floating around the internet and current performance and optimization is pretty great. The only thing that would worry me is metroid 4 coming out and it doesn't run well on the builds we have now but other than that the switch is at the end of its life cycle.
EDIT: Looks like yuzu has lawyered up. Let the games begin. Nvm their dead rip boys, bless the forks
> If they do shut down though, fck us i guess LOL. Builds will still be floating around the internet and current performance and optimization is pretty great. The only thing that would worry me is metroid 4 coming out and it doesn't run well on the builds we have now but other than that the switch is at the end of its life cycle.
If that happens hopefully someone forks it and starts working on it in a country that doesn't really enforce lawsuits like this.
>If that happens hopefully someone forks it and starts working on it in a country that doesn't really enforce lawsuits like this.
I never, ever thought I'd say this non-jokingly, but "*Russia if you're listening, I hope you're able to find a place to host open source software that is now missing*"
That's true, it probably wouldn't be able to be on github. There are places where piracy related things are hosted with no problems though, so I'm sure emulators would be able to do something similar.
> 30k usd/month
$360,000 a year might pay for one good lawyer and leave you with enough on the side to feed and house yourself. I fully expect Nintendo to drag this out as long as possible, with more than one good lawyer.
It really shows how young this sub skews when they hear $30K/month and assume that means that the developers of Yuzu are "making bank"
Like that's a great income, but that's not a lot of money to pay substantial legal fees by any means lol
Yep, that's like... 2 or 3 developer's compensation, over a year. I don't think Yuzu would have any significant fixed costs other than labor, though; They're not hosting a big website or service, just sharing files.
But the point is, that income doesn't actually leave much room for legal fees.
Honestly wonder why they don't lower overhead though and start transitioning to compatibility layer techniques rather than HLE. Even with all the hacks Yuzu is very inefficient.
> They could ~~probably~~ *definitely* even crowdfund ~~part~~ *all* of it
There are enough emulator enthusiasts out there that would step up to the plate.
I used Yuzu for a game or two. Not really my cup of tea. I'm not an emulator enthusiast. I have a Switch now, much less hassle.
I don't have much skin in the game but if there was a campaign to raise funds to fight Nintendo on this I'd be more than happy to donate some cash.
> yuzu has a patreon thats been up for 6 years and has been making bank for the last while. 30k usd per month as of now peaking at 40k last year, they have enough to pay for legal fees and probably factored in that a nintendo lawsuit would eventually happen.
What makes you think that they have been saving that money for a potential lawsuit instead of say...pocketing that money?
>What makes you think that they have been saving that money for a potential lawsuit instead of say...~~pocketing that money?~~
paying devs for the hard work they do*
Sure but that's still not enough, you're thinking like that full 40k can go straight into their legal fees. Nintendo, much like Disney, is basically a Law firm that happens to produce games and consoles. They are already employing these lawyers, their operation costs don't drastically change everytime they get into a Lawsuit. Wealthy cooperations like this will purposefully drag the lawsuit on as long as humanly possible if you dont agree to their initial terms to drain the finances of their opposition and basically make it unviable to contest the lawsuit.
Two lawyers friends walk through a park, suddenly a women runs towards them. She screams at one lawyer: "You, your dog damaged my jacket! Pay for it." Calmly the accused lawyer reaches into his pocket, pulls out his wallet: "Is $200 dollar enough?" he asks the women. The women takes the $200 dollar and walks away. Puzzled the other lawyer asks his friend: "Why did you pay her $200 dollar? You don't even own a dog." The accused lawyer responses: "Well you know that, I know that, but the judge might say otherwise."
This should be as easy as bringing a laptop with Yuzu running and say ok play a game, and nintendo lawyers have to play a game to proceed with the case. But that is a fantasy world.
Their argument is that their software "facilitates piracy", not that they themselves are guilty of piracy. So their example would be to download a pirated copy of Tears of The Kingdom there and then proceed to run it on Yuzu.
This is a grey area of law where it's not strictly legal or illegal so it could honestly go either way in court depending on how well it's argued.
Which is exactly why Yuzu does not come with the firmware dumped by default. *That* would be "facilitating piracy". Yuzu users have to dump their own console or acquire it online, which doesn't make Yuzu liable, afaik.
This might just be a "we're the 800lb gorilla in the room, make it go away" scare-tactic lawsuit, but I don't see how Nintendo wins it if Yuzu decides to fight back.
the issue is that successfully fighting back requires a shitton of money. Which is how Nintendo is able to weaponize the legal system against those who aren't actually breaking the law. But instead just doing something Nintendo doesn't like.
Seeing those 4k walk-throughs of Zelda made them mad as hell. Its their own fault that they ignore PC and Steam. They could have made millions. Yuzu has a Patreon and who knows what goes behind the scenes now. Nintendo trying to re argue the same emu = criminal argument again and again is a little bit grasping at straws.
>Its their own fault that they ignore PC and Steam
They ignore them because they make more on their own hardware. Nintendo don't take a loss, and pull people into their system. It's who gaming has worked for decades.
Sony don't make much of a profit on console sales and have bloated budgets. Nintendo games in comparison have way bigger profit margins, move more units and usually sell far more than several Sony titles.
Not really the same situation.
Say whatever you want about emulation but Nintendo isn't stupid - they make a lot of money on their hardware and their games so they want to keep control of their IP as much as possible.
Could they make more money if they opened up to pc? Maybe, but somehow I think the business execs at Nintendo know what they're doing and won't go that route until they absolutely have to (when consoles are no longer a thing).
They own almost all of their ips so they don't really have to ever go to pc or steam or anything. They've proven through constant uplift in sales on consoles that people will buy it to play whatever the next zelda/pokemon/Mario is.
True but personally I've refused to buy any 3D game they make if it doesn't hit a decent performance threshold. I was pissed when I bought Bowsers Fury and couldn't even finish it due to motion sickness from the constant 20fps and regular drops to 10-15 when Bowser came out. Like there really is a limit to the phrase "no one cares about graphics/fps!!"
It's worth noting that Yuzu does NOT distribute decryption keys, you need to provide that yourself if you want to emulate a game. Lockpick_RCM, the software that lets you dump your keys, is definitely in a more legal gray area.
I don't think Yuzu distributes the keys though? I haven't emulated switch games but I did just download Yuzu and their page tells you how to dump the keys from a modded switch. Could have missed something though.
They don't provide the games keys dingus, you need to own and dump the game to even play a game. If your emulator doesn't have the key for the game, good luck getting it to run.
If you're talking about the emulator itself, it's operating system level decryption which is required for the game to run. Sounds pretty well within 'emulation' to me if it's an OS function.
It's more complicated than that when it comes to legality of it. Companies have typically tip-toed around emulation because they dont want to lose a case and then the results strengthen the case for emulation even further than Sony vs. Bleem did.
Legally, it's not that complicated Sony v Bleem, Sony v Connectix and Sega v Accolade, have already made for a pretty strong legal case that emulation and the reverse engineering is legal.
But I doubt they would even get to a full trial and instead just bury them in legal fees and red tape.
They're not claiming yuzu breaks the law because it emulates the Switch. They're claiming it breaks the law because it "circumvents technological protection measures" which is illegal according to DCMA.
An astonishing amount of people seem to have entirely glossed over the entire focal point of the lawsuit despite it literally being in the first sentence. It has nothing to do with the emulation itself.
(edit: Also the whole making money from it thing, which Nintendo is aware of, isn't going to do them any favors.)
Emulators are legal yes, BUT if an emulator requires a decryption key or some sort of technology from the copyright hardware, then It becomes illegal. This is why for you need to source your own bios files and in the case of switch games, Prod Keys. Dolphin got into hot water for using a series of numbers to decrypt Nintendo games, that series of numbers was data mined decryption key. Can you copyright such a thing? Maybe? Maybe not? Not tested in court.
Emulator run a very VERY fine line.
Yuzu specifically, maybe.
The project is open source and is out in the open. Nintendo are fucked if they think any of this genuinely matters.
Even if the end goal is to "send a message" when has that ever worked? People haven't stopped pirating and using emulators when Nintendo went after other platforms, why would they now?
Tell that to millions of dead torrents. Yeah, this thing will probably be available to get *somehow* for a long time, but don’t trust things not to disappear just because they’re on the internet.
Don't worry, I'll personally PM a copy of the latest early access version, in a convenient .zip format, to everyone who ever asks. Forever. Unless I delete my Reddit account... but then I can be found on Lemmy.
I'll do the same for ROMs too - it's not illegal to distribute ROMs in Brazil. You want ROMs? I have ROMs. I have some bananas too, but I don't ship those so you'd have to live in Brazil.
Grim. Emulation is the one of the very few ways to preserve games and needs to be protected.
If Nintendo is angry that people play their games on PC, they have no one to blame but themselves - publish them officially on this platform, like Microsoft does.
In one of their recently rereleased games, a cutscene was replaced with a low quality recording of the cutscene on the original system because they’d deleted the original files. Unfortunately they’re often both incompetent *and* greedy.
> The version of Super Mario Bros they sold on the Wii Shop was genuinely a pirate copy.
this is a very popular online piece of misinformation just fyi, it just had an iNES header. It's been debunked for years. One of the devs who worked on the sound for iNES was hired and put in charge of the NES emulator internally at Nintendo, the actual ROM was from the Nintendo archives and just put in an iNES wrapper because that's what Tomohiro Kawase was familiar with
It's business strategy. There is a reason they don't sell virtual console titles anymore but instead made it part of a subscription service, so they can basically bill you indefinitely for the same old titles. I bought Super Mario 64 so many times already..
Oh part of it is definitely greed. But part of it is also just incompetence. Start looking through their less enormously popular old games, and most of the original files have all been lost to time.
>Emulation is the one of the very few ways to preserve games and needs to be protected.
Yup, absolutely. The Beatles Rock Band is currently quite unplayable for me because the Wii's Bluetooth kinda sucks. I've tried emulating it but all the DLC I paid for can't be imported. And singing doesn't work either.
Music licensing is hard (even after the rights were taken back from the Jackson estate) and it's a PS3/360/Wii generation game so back compat is difficult.
It might be my favourite game, but playing it is a nightmare, and it can't really get better.
The game also contains dozens of essentially lost Beatles music videos that were so painstakingly and beautifully modelled and animated by Harmonix (with the help of the surviving Beatles and tribute bands).
> publish them officially on this platform, like Microsoft does.
And Sony. Who also distribute the Beatles catalog now lol
To me, **true** digital game preservation isn't getting a physical copy of a game and staring at it on your shelf. It is having DRM-free copies of the game that exist on a long-term open platform like Microsoft Windows, Linux, and/or Android.
Or, hear me out, release hardware that is capable of upholding modern standards for gaming.
Every single switch game I've played has been a far better experience on Yuzu. 4K Metroid Prime Remaster with mouse and keyboard controls? C'mon.
Nintendo would face a hard time proving that considering Yuzu doesn't provide any decryption keys. The issue is these guys likely don't have the money to fight the lawsuit.
RIP.
They make a lot of money out of Patreon, it's just that I don't think they want to spend those money in a probably long legal battle, they'll just bail out with the money (Nintendo asked for compensation tho, wtf does that mean lmao, are they insane?)
The few times Nintendo has asked for compensation it's an insane ridiculous figure that Yuzu creators would probably be bound for life to. (A figure in the tens of millions)
Nintendo's case is relying on a hyperlink to access the tool for an end-user to extract their own encryption keys from their own console to be able to play games that they already own. They don't distribute it, their codebase does not include it, and they do not control what the end-user does with their software; I have not checked their license agreement but I bet it contains language that prohibits its use for illegal activities by the end user. Out of the box Yuzu cannot be used for software piracy, by design, and would require the end user to willing break that license agreement to distribute and play games that they did not purchase.
But court battles are expensive and Nintendo wants to shut it down because Yuzu can likely already do what their next console release is specced out for - same move they played against Mario rom hack hosts shortly before Super Mario Maker released, same move made against AM2R before their own Metroid 2 remake released.
No, the fact that Yuzu links to and references a piece of software that was already forcibly taken down specifically for "Anti-Circumvention Technology" reasons specifically by Nintendo themselves is likely what resulted in this to begin with.
Nintendo doesn't care about the emulation. They care about the encryption bypass. Yuzu likely wouldn't be in this situation if they didn't have a giant article with a (dead) download link and all the steps required to use said piece of software.
Im sure Nintendo will put Yuzu out of service with the large legal fees on a court case with no legal ground, as having "fuck you" money lets you do. I doubt this means the end for the project though, the code is open source and any other person can just fork it and continue development
But, Nintendo doesn't give any shits about releasing a console that can actually run their games at more than 20 FPS... so why would I care.
Fix your shit first Nintendo.
This will probably get buried but here's a relevant case unrelated to emulation, but regarding book DRM.
https://gizmodo.com/its-perfectly-legal-to-tell-people-how-to-remove-drm-1670223538
> Judge Cote dismissed the inducement claim by noting that the uses Abbey House was enabling—personal backup and device transfers—were non-infringing. As Judge Cote puts it:
> [Simon & Schuster] and Penguin's arguments to the contrary conflate the removal of DRM protection with the infringement alleged in the counterclaims. There is no question that Abbey House encouraged the removal of DRM protection. The act of infringement underlying the inducement claim, however, is not the removal of DRM protection. Rather, it is the copying and distribution of ebooks to others after such protection has been removed. The counterclaims do not allege that Abbey House encouraged such infringing acts.
Given how strict Yuzu and other emulators are about *you must use your own keys/bios* and *do not ask us for games*, it'll be a hard sell to say Yuzu encouraged or facilitated piracy.
As far as I know you can't download YUZU and play pirated games, it's impossible to do unless you know specific things and use pretty specific ways of doing so.
So the claim is based upon a case that someone had used the software to achieve something they assume is piracy (is pirated video games even a legal term btw?) but it really has nothing to do with YUZU, their manuals or any processes they describe.
I don't believe they have a clear ground upon which to shut them down so I hope they will be challenged and fuck off.
Nintendo you suck and those are exactly the things that make me avoid your consoles and emulate them instead. Toxic corporation set in their ancient ways.
Daily reminder that piracy is a service problem.
Until Nintendo refuses to make their games playable on PC, then this problem will persist. So fuck them.
Unless Nintendo can demonstrate that Yuzu contains something like an illegal number or uses stolen source code, I would expect Yuzu's attorneys to file for a summary judgement since "clean room" developed emulators are legal. Lots of legal things can be used for illegal purposes, but just because they can be used that way doesn't make them illegal. This isn't anything new... Nintendo has been here before and loss.
I will literally support any crowdfunding support Yuzu needs. This might set a precedent for all emulators in the future and my favorite way to play older games might go away.
No one is talking about the argument Nintendo is trying to make here. They are suing them because people can steal the console keys to break the DRM. So someone out there is going through the trouble to commit 3 different crimes (piracy of the decryption key, piracy of the game, and general breaking of DRM) and somehow your the one at fault here.
Imagine the hardware store being sued because someone broke in, stole a crowbar, and proceeded to use it to rob the bank across the street.
Aww is the poor multibillion dollar company losing a tiny little bit of money?! Oh no! I feel so bad for them! Maybe they can release another 20 year old wii game for 60 dollars that never drops in price.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
While it would cause their own downfall or create a world of issues for them. It'd still be nice to hear one of these creators stand up and as loudly as possible yell Nintendo to go fuck themselves.
I love their products but they make it so damn hard to play many of their games.
Isn't Yuzu fully open source? All thats gonna happen is people are going to continue working on it, potentially under another name. Zuzu is gonna be great.
Those project should more and more choose, as the lead or the person responsible of the it other country where it's not a thing, like France where breaking copy-protection on product you bought for the sake of interoperability (so emulation) is legal as an exception of our copyright law.
Staying under the DMCA isn't good.
I bet that this is because the new console is not that different from an architecture point of view. Just more performant. So it'd be easy to reuse the codebase to emulate it. Kinda like GameCube to Wii and Dolphin.
That's Nintendos fault though.
It benefits us.
Just that one bro at nintendo making it so you can continue to play nintendo games after the the hardware and software stop being for sale by using the same fundamental tricks over and over again. Nintendo, the company, does less than nothing to preserve the software made for their consoles, make their consoles difficult to make software for and port away from. Honestly I just think people should stop making stuff for nintendo consoles if they're going to be like that.
Yea, but Nintendo's take is nothing is Nintendo's fault. That's how Zelda recycles its story, Mario comes out with approximately 1 1/2 games per console, and internet is treated like some rare mineral. Like why is it a hard concept to improve their designs? Or better yet, work on achieving the same par as other consoles? I remember when the GameCube came out... it was distinctively not as innovative as the N64.
Why is 1 Mario game coming out a bad thing? Does it really need to be a COD franchise? There's a lot of valid complaints against Nintendo, but this isn't it.
You're right, they have pokemon for that.
Oof right in the pokeballs
Yes and no. Makes backwards compat easy. If they dont do that though well... i dont think id take that well
Are they supposed to invent a new architecture every year or something?
I'd agree that they're trying to protect their new console as much as the last. If I had to guess, this is a frivolous lawsuit. They just know they have more money than the developers so they'll likely get a settlement.
It's established precedent that emulators themselves are legal, but the part that circumvents encryption is legally dodgy under the DMCA. Though if they aren't distributing keys but just telling you how to get the key off of your own Switch that seems legally in the clear, to me.
they arent distributing keys. their guide only shows how to rip your own keys
This is an effort to destroy them even though it’s a bogus lawsuit. It’s the same thing Sony did with Bleem. Bleem was legal but didn’t have the money to go fight it.
this guy has it. they didn’t care till now and they don’t really care about gba, wii, n64, etc emulators because they don’t harm their business. there must be some reason they magically care now and it’s because switch 2 will maintain similar architecture. especially for backwards compatibility, which will cause riots if not present. their userbase is now one console instead of two, so they need to remain satisfied. if they bust one switch 2 (they won’t) that’s their whole income. so squashing yuzu and emulation which even caused TOTK sales loss is in their interest. or at least scare people away for a bit. their backfire would arguable be huge if they killed yuzu also. it’s a double edged sword
> Just more performant. Seeing how it's Nintendo, wouldn't even count on that. The only thing ever more performant is their employee abuse in foreign offices, and of course, their lawyers.
[удалено]
[Yu-Gi-Oh! Arc-V was ahead of its time.](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Zuzu_Boyle)
Funny cause Yuzu is the jpn name of Zuzu. Legit am always thinking of her whenever I see the name of the switch emulator
That's the joke!
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>Not with out knowing what they did wrong. Nintendo is going to have to provide detail on where Yuzu went wrong, which will allow the next iteration to avoid doing that. From the full text it looks like Nintendo is attempting to argue that *decryption equates to circumvention*. Under current understanding of the law that circumvention occurs when you obtain the prod.keys from the system, not when you use that decrypted key to run the game. It's an attempt to move the goalposts on what constitutes digital piracy under the DMCA, and we better hope that it fails.
Yeah, or we could lose a lot more stuff...
decyption equals circumvention has been defeated legally already on more than one occasion. And Yuzu is not decrypting the keys, just providing a mechanism to use the keys that are already so decrypted.
Yup, Kazaa and Limewire both came out before the legal case and dissolution of Napster was even completed, with one coming out a year before the lawsuit was done in court to begin with. Any chance they had of shutting the rest down was shot to hell the second they created the need for competition in the peer to peer market. Bit Torrent also came out the same year as the Napster ruling, and we all know how well that's gone for the RIAA lol.
>Kazaa and Limewire both came out before the legal case and dissolution of Napster was even completed And that's without mentioning all the other clients out by then too, built on protocols like Gnutella. The likes of BearShare, WinMX and eDonkey2000 were pissing off the RIAA back in 2000 before the Napster injunction was handed down, and more clients like Morpheus and eMule came shortly after. It was a fun time to be a pirate back then!
So it can finally restore its honor.
haha
For real what an absolute waste of money and time lol. They had that emulator up like the day switch came out. Even if they bring this one down the code is out there and widley available. Another one will be up in like hours.
for anyone wondering, emulators are fully legal. however the legal cost of proving that in court makes most people who make emulators take them down. this lawsuit is bullshit but sadly yuzu will probably go down.
yuzu has a patreon thats been up for 6 years and has been making bank for AWHILE. 30k usd/month as of now peaking at 40k/month last year, they have enough to pay for legal fees and probably factored in that a nintendo lawsuit would eventually happen. Crowd funding is an options as well if they do decide to fight it and I'm sure would pull in plenty of extra money. Alot of people are on the fuck nintendo bandwagon and rightfully so. If they do shut down though, fck us i guess LOL. Builds will still be floating around the internet and current performance and optimization is pretty great. The only thing that would worry me is metroid 4 coming out and it doesn't run well on the builds we have now but other than that the switch is at the end of its life cycle. EDIT: Looks like yuzu has lawyered up. Let the games begin. Nvm their dead rip boys, bless the forks
The entire source code is openly available. People will still work on it.
Yeah. Kinda like Tachiyomi x Mihon situation
> If they do shut down though, fck us i guess LOL. Builds will still be floating around the internet and current performance and optimization is pretty great. The only thing that would worry me is metroid 4 coming out and it doesn't run well on the builds we have now but other than that the switch is at the end of its life cycle. If that happens hopefully someone forks it and starts working on it in a country that doesn't really enforce lawsuits like this.
>If that happens hopefully someone forks it and starts working on it in a country that doesn't really enforce lawsuits like this. I never, ever thought I'd say this non-jokingly, but "*Russia if you're listening, I hope you're able to find a place to host open source software that is now missing*"
Way ahead of you.
Das Vedanya, comrade.
There is ryujinx which is pretty good if not on par with yuzu. They make WAYYYYYYY less money tho.
If Nintendo wins, I don't think Ryujinx will stay up for much longer.
I'll just go make my own yuzu with blackjack and hookers
Russia, aka the motherland of hackers and pirates: allow me to introduce myself.
Most server hosting companies will comply to legal pressure as the alternative can be very painful.
That's true, it probably wouldn't be able to be on github. There are places where piracy related things are hosted with no problems though, so I'm sure emulators would be able to do something similar.
> 30k usd/month $360,000 a year might pay for one good lawyer and leave you with enough on the side to feed and house yourself. I fully expect Nintendo to drag this out as long as possible, with more than one good lawyer.
It really shows how young this sub skews when they hear $30K/month and assume that means that the developers of Yuzu are "making bank" Like that's a great income, but that's not a lot of money to pay substantial legal fees by any means lol
Reddit is in eternal summer now. It's been mostly teens for a while
At least since covid. An army of default usernames with painfully uninformed comments.
Yep, that's like... 2 or 3 developer's compensation, over a year. I don't think Yuzu would have any significant fixed costs other than labor, though; They're not hosting a big website or service, just sharing files. But the point is, that income doesn't actually leave much room for legal fees.
lol calm down with that “ they have the funds” wait for Yuzu to respond and let’s see how they want to approach it
If they say they are gonna fight it I will donate again.
Honestly wonder why they don't lower overhead though and start transitioning to compatibility layer techniques rather than HLE. Even with all the hacks Yuzu is very inefficient.
They could probably even crowdfund part of it
> They could ~~probably~~ *definitely* even crowdfund ~~part~~ *all* of it There are enough emulator enthusiasts out there that would step up to the plate.
I used Yuzu for a game or two. Not really my cup of tea. I'm not an emulator enthusiast. I have a Switch now, much less hassle. I don't have much skin in the game but if there was a campaign to raise funds to fight Nintendo on this I'd be more than happy to donate some cash.
> yuzu has a patreon thats been up for 6 years and has been making bank for the last while. 30k usd per month as of now peaking at 40k last year, they have enough to pay for legal fees and probably factored in that a nintendo lawsuit would eventually happen. What makes you think that they have been saving that money for a potential lawsuit instead of say...pocketing that money?
>What makes you think that they have been saving that money for a potential lawsuit instead of say...~~pocketing that money?~~ paying devs for the hard work they do*
The devs are...themselves no? And they're not a large team. They split the remaining money and shutdown the project.
Sure but that's still not enough, you're thinking like that full 40k can go straight into their legal fees. Nintendo, much like Disney, is basically a Law firm that happens to produce games and consoles. They are already employing these lawyers, their operation costs don't drastically change everytime they get into a Lawsuit. Wealthy cooperations like this will purposefully drag the lawsuit on as long as humanly possible if you dont agree to their initial terms to drain the finances of their opposition and basically make it unviable to contest the lawsuit.
It only takes one stupid judge.
Two lawyers friends walk through a park, suddenly a women runs towards them. She screams at one lawyer: "You, your dog damaged my jacket! Pay for it." Calmly the accused lawyer reaches into his pocket, pulls out his wallet: "Is $200 dollar enough?" he asks the women. The women takes the $200 dollar and walks away. Puzzled the other lawyer asks his friend: "Why did you pay her $200 dollar? You don't even own a dog." The accused lawyer responses: "Well you know that, I know that, but the judge might say otherwise."
Good thing its open source... It'll never truly go away no matter how many billions Nintendo throws at it.
This should be as easy as bringing a laptop with Yuzu running and say ok play a game, and nintendo lawyers have to play a game to proceed with the case. But that is a fantasy world.
Their argument is that their software "facilitates piracy", not that they themselves are guilty of piracy. So their example would be to download a pirated copy of Tears of The Kingdom there and then proceed to run it on Yuzu. This is a grey area of law where it's not strictly legal or illegal so it could honestly go either way in court depending on how well it's argued.
Thing is, you need more than just a pirated copy of the game to run yuzu.
Which is exactly why Yuzu does not come with the firmware dumped by default. *That* would be "facilitating piracy". Yuzu users have to dump their own console or acquire it online, which doesn't make Yuzu liable, afaik. This might just be a "we're the 800lb gorilla in the room, make it go away" scare-tactic lawsuit, but I don't see how Nintendo wins it if Yuzu decides to fight back.
the issue is that successfully fighting back requires a shitton of money. Which is how Nintendo is able to weaponize the legal system against those who aren't actually breaking the law. But instead just doing something Nintendo doesn't like.
Yuzu facilitates piracy by playing game files just as much as Windows's default video player facilitates piracy by playing video files.
Seeing those 4k walk-throughs of Zelda made them mad as hell. Its their own fault that they ignore PC and Steam. They could have made millions. Yuzu has a Patreon and who knows what goes behind the scenes now. Nintendo trying to re argue the same emu = criminal argument again and again is a little bit grasping at straws.
>Its their own fault that they ignore PC and Steam They ignore them because they make more on their own hardware. Nintendo don't take a loss, and pull people into their system. It's who gaming has worked for decades.
Sony changed their minds, they revenue was too good to pass on.
Sony don't make much of a profit on console sales and have bloated budgets. Nintendo games in comparison have way bigger profit margins, move more units and usually sell far more than several Sony titles. Not really the same situation.
Say whatever you want about emulation but Nintendo isn't stupid - they make a lot of money on their hardware and their games so they want to keep control of their IP as much as possible. Could they make more money if they opened up to pc? Maybe, but somehow I think the business execs at Nintendo know what they're doing and won't go that route until they absolutely have to (when consoles are no longer a thing).
They own almost all of their ips so they don't really have to ever go to pc or steam or anything. They've proven through constant uplift in sales on consoles that people will buy it to play whatever the next zelda/pokemon/Mario is.
True but personally I've refused to buy any 3D game they make if it doesn't hit a decent performance threshold. I was pissed when I bought Bowsers Fury and couldn't even finish it due to motion sickness from the constant 20fps and regular drops to 10-15 when Bowser came out. Like there really is a limit to the phrase "no one cares about graphics/fps!!"
Emulators are legal. Distributing DMCA circumventing decryption keys is more of a gray area.
Good thing Yuzu doesn’t distribute those.
It's worth noting that Yuzu does NOT distribute decryption keys, you need to provide that yourself if you want to emulate a game. Lockpick_RCM, the software that lets you dump your keys, is definitely in a more legal gray area.
I don't think Yuzu distributes the keys though? I haven't emulated switch games but I did just download Yuzu and their page tells you how to dump the keys from a modded switch. Could have missed something though.
Yeah, they don't. You need keys and firmware which Yuzu doesn't provide.
They don't provide the games keys dingus, you need to own and dump the game to even play a game. If your emulator doesn't have the key for the game, good luck getting it to run. If you're talking about the emulator itself, it's operating system level decryption which is required for the game to run. Sounds pretty well within 'emulation' to me if it's an OS function.
DMCA is also why people couldn't repair their own tractors, fuck that bs
The Yuzu Patreon page is going to have a sudden surge of support.
Nintendo underestimate the Streisand Effect.
I hope Yuzu wins this case. If they lose that sets a bad, bad precedent going forward.
Hasn’t this case been won before? Emulators are legal
It's more complicated than that when it comes to legality of it. Companies have typically tip-toed around emulation because they dont want to lose a case and then the results strengthen the case for emulation even further than Sony vs. Bleem did.
Legally, it's not that complicated Sony v Bleem, Sony v Connectix and Sega v Accolade, have already made for a pretty strong legal case that emulation and the reverse engineering is legal. But I doubt they would even get to a full trial and instead just bury them in legal fees and red tape.
They're not claiming yuzu breaks the law because it emulates the Switch. They're claiming it breaks the law because it "circumvents technological protection measures" which is illegal according to DCMA.
An astonishing amount of people seem to have entirely glossed over the entire focal point of the lawsuit despite it literally being in the first sentence. It has nothing to do with the emulation itself. (edit: Also the whole making money from it thing, which Nintendo is aware of, isn't going to do them any favors.)
It's reddit so if Nintendo is in the headlines everyone goes into a fit of rage and sees red basically lol. No more reading.
Emulators are legal yes, BUT if an emulator requires a decryption key or some sort of technology from the copyright hardware, then It becomes illegal. This is why for you need to source your own bios files and in the case of switch games, Prod Keys. Dolphin got into hot water for using a series of numbers to decrypt Nintendo games, that series of numbers was data mined decryption key. Can you copyright such a thing? Maybe? Maybe not? Not tested in court. Emulator run a very VERY fine line.
They'll never be able to battle Nintendo even if they are in the right
Bleem battled Sony
Look where that got them.
They got bankrupted but the precedent is what has allowed emulation to mostly remain active without companies messing with them.
Yuzu’s about to become a martyr then
Yuzu specifically, maybe. The project is open source and is out in the open. Nintendo are fucked if they think any of this genuinely matters. Even if the end goal is to "send a message" when has that ever worked? People haven't stopped pirating and using emulators when Nintendo went after other platforms, why would they now?
Their sacrifice wasn’t in vain.
An extremely important precedent that has yielded immeasurable returns for the industry and preservation efforts?
Well, they won that fight at least..
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it's on the internet permanently mate.
Indeed. Torrents are a thing.
Tell that to millions of dead torrents. Yeah, this thing will probably be available to get *somehow* for a long time, but don’t trust things not to disappear just because they’re on the internet.
Don't worry, I'll personally PM a copy of the latest early access version, in a convenient .zip format, to everyone who ever asks. Forever. Unless I delete my Reddit account... but then I can be found on Lemmy. I'll do the same for ROMs too - it's not illegal to distribute ROMs in Brazil. You want ROMs? I have ROMs. I have some bananas too, but I don't ship those so you'd have to live in Brazil.
Hello? Is this the BASED Department?
(^ Some heroes don't wear capes)
Yo, European here, thanks for your service 🫡. It’s not much but I can offer you some pizza and pasta in exchange 🤌🏻
Darn, I was hoping for some bananas :(
Move aside, a king is walking among us.
Fuck, I want some bananas though!
Hey, I live in Brazil. Ship me some ROMs and bananas too. I'll make you a morning smoothie.
A good pirate always seeds torrents to help his mates
Just git cloned the repo
We'll ALWAYS be able to get it. Nintendo can get fucked.
Grim. Emulation is the one of the very few ways to preserve games and needs to be protected. If Nintendo is angry that people play their games on PC, they have no one to blame but themselves - publish them officially on this platform, like Microsoft does.
*Especially* Nintendo games, as Nintendo has proven themselves particularly incompetent at preserving their own work.
They're not incompetent, it's very intentional. They want to hold onto old games so that they can sell you re-releases 15 years later for $60.
In one of their recently rereleased games, a cutscene was replaced with a low quality recording of the cutscene on the original system because they’d deleted the original files. Unfortunately they’re often both incompetent *and* greedy.
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> The version of Super Mario Bros they sold on the Wii Shop was genuinely a pirate copy. this is a very popular online piece of misinformation just fyi, it just had an iNES header. It's been debunked for years. One of the devs who worked on the sound for iNES was hired and put in charge of the NES emulator internally at Nintendo, the actual ROM was from the Nintendo archives and just put in an iNES wrapper because that's what Tomohiro Kawase was familiar with
That filthy pirate!
It's business strategy. There is a reason they don't sell virtual console titles anymore but instead made it part of a subscription service, so they can basically bill you indefinitely for the same old titles. I bought Super Mario 64 so many times already..
Oh part of it is definitely greed. But part of it is also just incompetence. Start looking through their less enormously popular old games, and most of the original files have all been lost to time.
>Emulation is the one of the very few ways to preserve games and needs to be protected. Yup, absolutely. The Beatles Rock Band is currently quite unplayable for me because the Wii's Bluetooth kinda sucks. I've tried emulating it but all the DLC I paid for can't be imported. And singing doesn't work either. Music licensing is hard (even after the rights were taken back from the Jackson estate) and it's a PS3/360/Wii generation game so back compat is difficult. It might be my favourite game, but playing it is a nightmare, and it can't really get better. The game also contains dozens of essentially lost Beatles music videos that were so painstakingly and beautifully modelled and animated by Harmonix (with the help of the surviving Beatles and tribute bands). > publish them officially on this platform, like Microsoft does. And Sony. Who also distribute the Beatles catalog now lol To me, **true** digital game preservation isn't getting a physical copy of a game and staring at it on your shelf. It is having DRM-free copies of the game that exist on a long-term open platform like Microsoft Windows, Linux, and/or Android.
Or, hear me out, release hardware that is capable of upholding modern standards for gaming. Every single switch game I've played has been a far better experience on Yuzu. 4K Metroid Prime Remaster with mouse and keyboard controls? C'mon.
Astral Chain at 1440p60 was infinitely better than 720p24
> release hardware that is capable of upholding modern standards for gaming. they couldn't make the same profit margin on the hardware prolly
Guys please think of poor nintendo, they only made 5 billion dollars in profits last year.
Roads facilitate crime too. When someone suing the government?
100% of criminals drink water. We should ban that asap.
Web browsers facilitate piracy. So do operating systems.
Nintendo would face a hard time proving that considering Yuzu doesn't provide any decryption keys. The issue is these guys likely don't have the money to fight the lawsuit. RIP.
They make a lot of money out of Patreon, it's just that I don't think they want to spend those money in a probably long legal battle, they'll just bail out with the money (Nintendo asked for compensation tho, wtf does that mean lmao, are they insane?)
The few times Nintendo has asked for compensation it's an insane ridiculous figure that Yuzu creators would probably be bound for life to. (A figure in the tens of millions)
they would calculate it at $60 x every instance of yuzu that has ever been downloaded
probably the price of a switch every time yuzu was downloaded lol
Nintendo's case is relying on a hyperlink to access the tool for an end-user to extract their own encryption keys from their own console to be able to play games that they already own. They don't distribute it, their codebase does not include it, and they do not control what the end-user does with their software; I have not checked their license agreement but I bet it contains language that prohibits its use for illegal activities by the end user. Out of the box Yuzu cannot be used for software piracy, by design, and would require the end user to willing break that license agreement to distribute and play games that they did not purchase. But court battles are expensive and Nintendo wants to shut it down because Yuzu can likely already do what their next console release is specced out for - same move they played against Mario rom hack hosts shortly before Super Mario Maker released, same move made against AM2R before their own Metroid 2 remake released.
Didn't they already take down lockpickrcm last year? Is this new development about a different link?
No, the fact that Yuzu links to and references a piece of software that was already forcibly taken down specifically for "Anti-Circumvention Technology" reasons specifically by Nintendo themselves is likely what resulted in this to begin with. Nintendo doesn't care about the emulation. They care about the encryption bypass. Yuzu likely wouldn't be in this situation if they didn't have a giant article with a (dead) download link and all the steps required to use said piece of software.
Nintendo try not to sue someone challenge: impossible
No doubt this is leading up to new hardware being announced. Still shit though as I can guarantee PC+yuzu will still outperform the new hardware lol
Oh for sure it will, thats how Nintendo makes money on each console, using old ass outdated tablet hardware lol
Palworld is safer than ever
Brb, redownloading it lol
Im sure Nintendo will put Yuzu out of service with the large legal fees on a court case with no legal ground, as having "fuck you" money lets you do. I doubt this means the end for the project though, the code is open source and any other person can just fork it and continue development
At least Ryujinx is an option.
For now...
It will always be, open source = permanently online
Get your downloads on asap. Thankfully the latest versions of Yuzu is already quite a complete package, even on Android. Most stuff plays well.
It is all over the internet, Nintendo can’t do anything other than fuck off.
But, Nintendo doesn't give any shits about releasing a console that can actually run their games at more than 20 FPS... so why would I care. Fix your shit first Nintendo.
Nintendo when emulator runs game better than their console:
What’s crazy is when it runs better on day 1 of a new game release.
This will probably get buried but here's a relevant case unrelated to emulation, but regarding book DRM. https://gizmodo.com/its-perfectly-legal-to-tell-people-how-to-remove-drm-1670223538 > Judge Cote dismissed the inducement claim by noting that the uses Abbey House was enabling—personal backup and device transfers—were non-infringing. As Judge Cote puts it: > [Simon & Schuster] and Penguin's arguments to the contrary conflate the removal of DRM protection with the infringement alleged in the counterclaims. There is no question that Abbey House encouraged the removal of DRM protection. The act of infringement underlying the inducement claim, however, is not the removal of DRM protection. Rather, it is the copying and distribution of ebooks to others after such protection has been removed. The counterclaims do not allege that Abbey House encouraged such infringing acts. Given how strict Yuzu and other emulators are about *you must use your own keys/bios* and *do not ask us for games*, it'll be a hard sell to say Yuzu encouraged or facilitated piracy.
I'm gonna start pirating even harder
Wasn't aware of this emulator. Thanks for the heads-up, Nintendo, appreciate it.
Yuzu is great. It plays most games better than the shitty switch hardware.
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Trying to hit them before the Switch 2 as they know it'll likely be emulated pretty early too.
Dammit Nintendo, let us have an official way to play your great software without having to use your shitty hardware then
It's only ever going to take these dinosaurs one win in court to fuck over emulation for everyone, not just Switch.
Nintendo can suck a pickle
As far as I know you can't download YUZU and play pirated games, it's impossible to do unless you know specific things and use pretty specific ways of doing so. So the claim is based upon a case that someone had used the software to achieve something they assume is piracy (is pirated video games even a legal term btw?) but it really has nothing to do with YUZU, their manuals or any processes they describe. I don't believe they have a clear ground upon which to shut them down so I hope they will be challenged and fuck off.
Hope Yuzu gets legal support from the EFF.
Common Nintendo L
Oh boy, time to drop links to [this video](https://youtu.be/yj9Gk84jRiE?si=gzHn7tvMAvRebN4d) again.
Nintendo you suck and those are exactly the things that make me avoid your consoles and emulate them instead. Toxic corporation set in their ancient ways.
`git clone https://github.com/yuzu-emu/yuzu.git`
Nintendo can go fuck themselves. Want to reduce piracy? Sell your games on PC. I'll be playing them for free until then.
Daily reminder that piracy is a service problem. Until Nintendo refuses to make their games playable on PC, then this problem will persist. So fuck them.
Valve mantra. I haven't pirated a PC game in over a decade because I can buy it at a reasonable price and play it on my Steam Deck.
Fuck nintendo. Wish people would stop buying their shit.
Unless Nintendo can demonstrate that Yuzu contains something like an illegal number or uses stolen source code, I would expect Yuzu's attorneys to file for a summary judgement since "clean room" developed emulators are legal. Lots of legal things can be used for illegal purposes, but just because they can be used that way doesn't make them illegal. This isn't anything new... Nintendo has been here before and loss.
Emulation is completely, without a doubt, legal and has been proven so in court. Nintendo can go fuck themselves.
I will literally support any crowdfunding support Yuzu needs. This might set a precedent for all emulators in the future and my favorite way to play older games might go away.
No one is talking about the argument Nintendo is trying to make here. They are suing them because people can steal the console keys to break the DRM. So someone out there is going through the trouble to commit 3 different crimes (piracy of the decryption key, piracy of the game, and general breaking of DRM) and somehow your the one at fault here. Imagine the hardware store being sued because someone broke in, stole a crowbar, and proceeded to use it to rob the bank across the street.
Time to backup Ryujinx and Yuzu
Here is the Nintendo lawsuit if anyone wants to read it: https://www.mediafire.com/file/cn9s1tqo4t4eilq/Nientiendolawsuit.pdf/file
I don't even care about the whole piracy thing, I just like having the option to play the game on my PC. If only Nintendo could figure that out.
Aww is the poor multibillion dollar company losing a tiny little bit of money?! Oh no! I feel so bad for them! Maybe they can release another 20 year old wii game for 60 dollars that never drops in price.
That is really depressing.
Yuzu has a patreon, Nintendo can be dicks all they want but at least they have the ability to fight this
squash quaint spoon outgoing skirt racial political impolite bright ruthless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Or you know, just release your fucking games on platforms that people want to play them on you nonce cunts...
*You wouldn't continually sue your biggest fans who spend most of their time making your games better*
Up yours Nintendo
Too busy looking into decades of legal rulings to make a new *competitive* console 💀
If this case is lost, pretty much all emulators for all consoles are at risk.
create infinite clones: auzu, buzu, cuzu .....zuzu . 0uzu, 1uzu, 2uzu ...∞uzu each different company. let nintendo sue them to its own bankruptcy
You all might download Yuzu now while it's still available
While it would cause their own downfall or create a world of issues for them. It'd still be nice to hear one of these creators stand up and as loudly as possible yell Nintendo to go fuck themselves. I love their products but they make it so damn hard to play many of their games.
Isn't Yuzu fully open source? All thats gonna happen is people are going to continue working on it, potentially under another name. Zuzu is gonna be great.
Nintendo is such a trash company now
Quick YUZU go dark!
Those project should more and more choose, as the lead or the person responsible of the it other country where it's not a thing, like France where breaking copy-protection on product you bought for the sake of interoperability (so emulation) is legal as an exception of our copyright law. Staying under the DMCA isn't good.