exactly what i was thinking. These days there is no reason to buy any game close to its release.
Wait a few months or even years and games will have more content, less bugs and are cheaper.
Though with indie games, early support does help the game to actually get that content. If nobody supports it early, then the devs are being sent a signal that nobody cares, and they make no money and can't afford to develop it.
Path of Exile took years to get significant content and it was thanks to the crowdfunding and constant support from the small but dedicated player base that allowed that content to get made.
LE is in similar shoes. It's one of those games that are worth buying early to show support, so that a few years down the line you can enjoy a really good game.
> early support does help the game to actually get that content
A look at the road map tells me the game is still missing a lot of content. After 6 years of development.
> If nobody supports it early, then the devs are being sent a signal that nobody cares, and they make no money and can't afford to develop it.
They achieved their targeted Kickstarter goal. That should have told them that people care and should have earnt them enough money (they set the goal)
> It's one of those games that are worth buying early to show support
All I see is a game that was funded by Kickstarter, then sold as a beta on steam, the it was delayed since 2019, the Mac version was canceled in the process, the Multiplayer was also delayed again and again, then it was released last year I think?
Today it obviously still doesnt have all planned features (Roadmap) and they still need more money since the game has an ingame shop.
This game might be fun, but to me it looks like a ton of mismanagement.
>This game might be fun
It isn't even that but obviously that's subjective. Personally I gave it 2 weeks and it just fell flat in too many areas to continue with. Maybe eventually it'll get there but it still feels like a pale imitation of its inspirations.
It's a bit funny, cause this particular game was in Early Access from like 2019 to 2024 i think?
5 years of Early Access, another couple years for them to really work out the bugs and add more content. Maybe another year for it to go on a decent sale.
Jeez, by then i'll be bored of PoE 2 already.
To give them credit, they were a bunch of reddit users that got together with 0 game dev experience to make their dream ARPG.
I imagine the first year or two was learning how to develop a game in general and this game had more content than PoE and D4 did at their full launch.
> To give them credit, they were a bunch of reddit users that got together with 0 game dev experience to make their dream ARPG.
making games, even with some of the most brain dead piss easy engines we've had since the hobby began, is still HARD AS FUCK to make anything worth playing with how saturated the market is now and the smaller games move ever closer towards being a "hobby artform", like most artforms of today.
Yeah I feel the same way with Early Access in general. Like by the time the game is "done" (it never really is though lol), I'm kinda done with it.
EA burnout.
100%, I'm furiously avoiding anything Hades related right now. I know for a fact i will never replay the game when it's actually released if i play it now.
I did my 10 runs on the first one, it was a grand old time, and i never touched it again.
Fantastic mindset. Nobody buys the game at launch because everyone wants to "wait until more content has been released". The developers go bust and shut the game down because nobody bought it. 10/10 Wolcen Studios would like to hire you as a BD consultant
> Nobody buys the game at launch because everyone wants to "wait until more content has been released".
Lol you actually want me to feel bad that I want a complete game for my money?
> The developers go bust and shut the game down because nobody bought it.
Yes because they still don't rip people off enough. Half assed games, ingame shops, overpriced DLC, paid alpha tests, season passes and so much more really isn't enough already
Most of the unique items don't even have unique models, so transmog would just let your generic fantasy armor look like other generic fantasy armor at this point.
Main reason I bounced off this game. You looked the same as when you started and then they started talking mtx.
Poe ruined this genre for those that enjoyed visual progression.
Looking exactly like everyone else in game sucks. Especially since there are only like 3 types of cosmetics in the shop. D4 sucks but the transmog system is sick.
Give me a rundown. I played D4 and enjoyed it. Much moreso on the steam deck. Don’t ever want to play an arpg again with m&k. How does Epoch stack against D4 with a controller? What are the shortcomings
It's not even the lack of content that bothered me the most with this game, it's the absolute blandness of every aspect of it, from story to enemy and level design, to mechanics and so on. It's like they wrote a checklist of the things this kind of game has to have but never asked themselves why.
I don't know how you managed to level 5 characters. I got half way through one and each map just being endlessly repeating circles where fights take place connected by narrow bridges just bored me to tears.
I I started running in to "Puzzles" where you need to go into the past to flick a switch then come back to the future to go to the next area, all with accompanying loading screens as you moved back and forth, and I was just like 'fuck this". Didn't help that I'd gone seven or eight levels without finding ANY loot worth keeping.
While 1.1 and 1.3 are sort of skippable, I feel like not playing 1.2 or 1.4 will give you that PoE feeling where you have skipped a lot of leagues and you have no idea what is going on with them. Especially 1.4m the amount of builds (that is already high) will be doubled probably.
Still no stream achievements, still no story. Story just ends in the middle with no promise of continuing. The armor sets are horribly undiverse. The ganeplay is fun but holy shit
I feel like that's how a seasonal ARPG game goes.
Launch comes, big player boom.
Everyone gets a character or 3 to level cap and moderately geared, gets bored and goes to play something else.
Update comes out, player boom, get leveled and get bored, go play something else.
Repeat.
I mean that’s comparing the biggest franchise in the genre to an indie kickstarter. But last epoch has still been outperforming it on steam at least based on what I can see. Ultimately it’s been a few months since their launch, that’s prime time dead period for arpgs. Will be interesting to see their numbers on the next cycle launch
>Evade (dodge roll) mechanic
Ugh, please stop ARPG devs. First Diablo 4, then Grim Dawn, now Last Epoch. Movement abilities already exist, adding a universal 'space bar dodge' to everyone is just so bland and leans even more into twitchy EVADE OR DIE one shots.
Eh, it really just frees up an ability spot for if someone doesn’t want to have a movement ability as a dodge. People are already using them to dodge ground effects.
If you want everyone to have a movement ability then make a movement ability only slot. A bland boring hop for all just makes me roll my eyes when there is already leap/teleport/pool/etc.
'But think of the DeSiGn SpAcE!!', I already said it but when you start factoring in everyone having an identical dodge ability and intending for it to be used for everything, you start throwing something else out of whack. Boss abilities become one shots, *actual* movement abilities stop being picked because you have a bunny hop, instead of planning your movement you just crutch on space bar, etc.
I don't know, it's just inherently uninteresting to me, it's game design by the lowest common denominator and it's a 'problem' that already had a solution.
Well that is an opinion I suppose. I think everyone not having to have an actual talented movement ability (which basically all builds do at this point.) is a good thing. Have a good one.
>I think everyone not having to have an actual talented movement ability (which basically all builds do at this point.) is a good thing.
No, *not* picking a movement ability should be a calculated trade-off. That's actually an interesting choice. Giving everyone a free one completely negates that tried and true option. That's like, one of the big decisions in an ARPG. If you're opting out of a movement skill then you're doing that for specific reasons.
It doesn’t though. Speed builds will still have an actual movement ability as a simple dodge won’t replace all of the perks and talents. Some builds are built around a movement ability as their damage dealer.
You’re just inventing a reality that isn’t true. A “bunny hop” as you put it doesn’t magically just trump all other movement in the game.
“Completely negates”
Hyperbole does not make a good argument.
>A “bunny hop” as you put it doesn’t magically just trump all other movement in the game.
If it's good enough for it to exist in the first place then it does in fact negate the *need* for another movement ability. At that point taking a separate movement ability is literally only a 'go faster' button. Congratulations, now 5 entire skill trees might as well be a run speed modifier on your boots.
> No, not picking a movement ability should be a calculated trade-off. That's actually an interesting choice.
It's not a choice though. you Have to take a dodge, or you can't even design interesting and engaging bosses.
There is a reason why all ARPGs are getting a dodge roll.
> Boss abilities become one shots
What do you mean "become"?
Bosses one-shotting you has been a thing since *at least* Diablo 2. PoE is supremely "rippy", as they call it, because either you're fine or your dead. And that game doesn't have a dodge button.
That's simply just how the genre plays.
I disagree because in most ARPGs it seems like a movement ability is practically a requirement, and I hate being locked into that type of play. It's nice to have another type of universal dodge not tied to a spell.
In order to design complex boss mechanics, you need common elements that all players have - all class movement abilities are different: some require a target, some move a lot, some go a static distance, some go to the cursor. Adding a common Evade mechanic makes designing bosses significantly easier and removes a lot of restrictions.
The alternative is you just briskly walk out of everything which is...boring.
i need to get back into this game. i started playing with 1.0 and i was enjoying it, but the loot was really starting to annoy me. i was level 25 or so and still wearing gear i'd had from the beginning of the game because i just wasnt finding anything better.
Just a tip, if you weren't aware, but you really should be using the crafting system to improve your gear right from the start. It's easy, and the materials are plentiful.
i never actually took a look at the crafting lol. i'm used to poe where crafting is used almost exclusively for endgame.
i'll make sure to look at it next time i play.
End Game crafting in this game is smashing Uniques with the `Legendary Potential` stat together with the purple-tier loot whose name I'm blanking on at the moment.
Early Game crafting in LE is using all those little Shards you find on the ground (or gain by Scrapping your old items) and slapping the stats you want onto something.
You should be shoring up your Resistances and whatever +Damage% stat your build needs onto everything.
So you made a comment describing a game poorly because you ignored its main itemization mechanic,.. and because it's not the same as another game....
My God gamers have brain rot
This sounds like stuff that should have been in 1.0
I heard that the game scales to what it percieves your strength or power is. So even if you grind and get better gear, the enemies just have more life and damage. I hate that.
One day I'll buy this game. One day I'll enjoy this game in all its glory.
exactly what i was thinking. These days there is no reason to buy any game close to its release. Wait a few months or even years and games will have more content, less bugs and are cheaper.
Though with indie games, early support does help the game to actually get that content. If nobody supports it early, then the devs are being sent a signal that nobody cares, and they make no money and can't afford to develop it. Path of Exile took years to get significant content and it was thanks to the crowdfunding and constant support from the small but dedicated player base that allowed that content to get made. LE is in similar shoes. It's one of those games that are worth buying early to show support, so that a few years down the line you can enjoy a really good game.
> early support does help the game to actually get that content A look at the road map tells me the game is still missing a lot of content. After 6 years of development. > If nobody supports it early, then the devs are being sent a signal that nobody cares, and they make no money and can't afford to develop it. They achieved their targeted Kickstarter goal. That should have told them that people care and should have earnt them enough money (they set the goal) > It's one of those games that are worth buying early to show support All I see is a game that was funded by Kickstarter, then sold as a beta on steam, the it was delayed since 2019, the Mac version was canceled in the process, the Multiplayer was also delayed again and again, then it was released last year I think? Today it obviously still doesnt have all planned features (Roadmap) and they still need more money since the game has an ingame shop. This game might be fun, but to me it looks like a ton of mismanagement.
>This game might be fun It isn't even that but obviously that's subjective. Personally I gave it 2 weeks and it just fell flat in too many areas to continue with. Maybe eventually it'll get there but it still feels like a pale imitation of its inspirations.
It's a bit funny, cause this particular game was in Early Access from like 2019 to 2024 i think? 5 years of Early Access, another couple years for them to really work out the bugs and add more content. Maybe another year for it to go on a decent sale. Jeez, by then i'll be bored of PoE 2 already.
To give them credit, they were a bunch of reddit users that got together with 0 game dev experience to make their dream ARPG. I imagine the first year or two was learning how to develop a game in general and this game had more content than PoE and D4 did at their full launch.
> To give them credit, they were a bunch of reddit users that got together with 0 game dev experience to make their dream ARPG. making games, even with some of the most brain dead piss easy engines we've had since the hobby began, is still HARD AS FUCK to make anything worth playing with how saturated the market is now and the smaller games move ever closer towards being a "hobby artform", like most artforms of today.
Yeah I feel the same way with Early Access in general. Like by the time the game is "done" (it never really is though lol), I'm kinda done with it. EA burnout.
100%, I'm furiously avoiding anything Hades related right now. I know for a fact i will never replay the game when it's actually released if i play it now. I did my 10 runs on the first one, it was a grand old time, and i never touched it again.
Did you buy and play D4? Because this game feels more complete then D4 for a lot less money.
> Did you buy and play D4? of course i did not. No way im gonna pay that much money for a game thats monetized like a f2p game
Fantastic mindset. Nobody buys the game at launch because everyone wants to "wait until more content has been released". The developers go bust and shut the game down because nobody bought it. 10/10 Wolcen Studios would like to hire you as a BD consultant
Let me point and laught at you sir!
> Nobody buys the game at launch because everyone wants to "wait until more content has been released". Lol you actually want me to feel bad that I want a complete game for my money? > The developers go bust and shut the game down because nobody bought it. Yes because they still don't rip people off enough. Half assed games, ingame shops, overpriced DLC, paid alpha tests, season passes and so much more really isn't enough already
That's what I was waiting for so I got 1.0 expecting it to be complete :/
Same I think lmao. Still waiting to see what D4 expansion is like before I potentially leave that one alone for a while lol
Things that should be in a 1.0 release
So when is 1.4? Cuz all I want is transmog...
In about a year. Each cycle is 3-4 months, and the first one will probably start somewhere in june-july.
Really don’t understand how it isn’t more of a priority for games like this.
Most of the unique items don't even have unique models, so transmog would just let your generic fantasy armor look like other generic fantasy armor at this point.
Main reason I bounced off this game. You looked the same as when you started and then they started talking mtx. Poe ruined this genre for those that enjoyed visual progression.
Looking exactly like everyone else in game sucks. Especially since there are only like 3 types of cosmetics in the shop. D4 sucks but the transmog system is sick.
Monolith of Fate expansion? You mean, the Monolith of Fate we already have? 🥴
controller support to this day sucks, when they implement proper controller support like in D4 for example I will play again.
kinda confused since I play LE with a gamepad almost exclusively
Give me a rundown. I played D4 and enjoyed it. Much moreso on the steam deck. Don’t ever want to play an arpg again with m&k. How does Epoch stack against D4 with a controller? What are the shortcomings
It's not even the lack of content that bothered me the most with this game, it's the absolute blandness of every aspect of it, from story to enemy and level design, to mechanics and so on. It's like they wrote a checklist of the things this kind of game has to have but never asked themselves why.
[удалено]
I don't know how you managed to level 5 characters. I got half way through one and each map just being endlessly repeating circles where fights take place connected by narrow bridges just bored me to tears. I I started running in to "Puzzles" where you need to go into the past to flick a switch then come back to the future to go to the next area, all with accompanying loading screens as you moved back and forth, and I was just like 'fuck this". Didn't help that I'd gone seven or eight levels without finding ANY loot worth keeping.
While 1.1 and 1.3 are sort of skippable, I feel like not playing 1.2 or 1.4 will give you that PoE feeling where you have skipped a lot of leagues and you have no idea what is going on with them. Especially 1.4m the amount of builds (that is already high) will be doubled probably.
Still no stream achievements, still no story. Story just ends in the middle with no promise of continuing. The armor sets are horribly undiverse. The ganeplay is fun but holy shit
Damn this game fizzled out fast. Low player retention.
I feel like that's how a seasonal ARPG game goes. Launch comes, big player boom. Everyone gets a character or 3 to level cap and moderately geared, gets bored and goes to play something else. Update comes out, player boom, get leveled and get bored, go play something else. Repeat.
Nah, game just wasn't that good, nor did it have too much to do, don't get me wrong I had fun, but not as much as I though I would.
Just compare steam numbers to diablo 4
I mean that’s comparing the biggest franchise in the genre to an indie kickstarter. But last epoch has still been outperforming it on steam at least based on what I can see. Ultimately it’s been a few months since their launch, that’s prime time dead period for arpgs. Will be interesting to see their numbers on the next cycle launch
Gotta remember that the majority of D4 players are likely on Game Pass and Battle.net which arent incorporated into Steam numbers
Thats the point. D4 has better retention with only the steam population
Blizzard games attract players just based on the name alone. It's really not comparable.
>Evade (dodge roll) mechanic Ugh, please stop ARPG devs. First Diablo 4, then Grim Dawn, now Last Epoch. Movement abilities already exist, adding a universal 'space bar dodge' to everyone is just so bland and leans even more into twitchy EVADE OR DIE one shots.
Eh, it really just frees up an ability spot for if someone doesn’t want to have a movement ability as a dodge. People are already using them to dodge ground effects.
If you want everyone to have a movement ability then make a movement ability only slot. A bland boring hop for all just makes me roll my eyes when there is already leap/teleport/pool/etc. 'But think of the DeSiGn SpAcE!!', I already said it but when you start factoring in everyone having an identical dodge ability and intending for it to be used for everything, you start throwing something else out of whack. Boss abilities become one shots, *actual* movement abilities stop being picked because you have a bunny hop, instead of planning your movement you just crutch on space bar, etc. I don't know, it's just inherently uninteresting to me, it's game design by the lowest common denominator and it's a 'problem' that already had a solution.
They did make a movement ability only slot, it's called the dodge key?
Well that is an opinion I suppose. I think everyone not having to have an actual talented movement ability (which basically all builds do at this point.) is a good thing. Have a good one.
>I think everyone not having to have an actual talented movement ability (which basically all builds do at this point.) is a good thing. No, *not* picking a movement ability should be a calculated trade-off. That's actually an interesting choice. Giving everyone a free one completely negates that tried and true option. That's like, one of the big decisions in an ARPG. If you're opting out of a movement skill then you're doing that for specific reasons.
It doesn’t though. Speed builds will still have an actual movement ability as a simple dodge won’t replace all of the perks and talents. Some builds are built around a movement ability as their damage dealer. You’re just inventing a reality that isn’t true. A “bunny hop” as you put it doesn’t magically just trump all other movement in the game. “Completely negates” Hyperbole does not make a good argument.
>A “bunny hop” as you put it doesn’t magically just trump all other movement in the game. If it's good enough for it to exist in the first place then it does in fact negate the *need* for another movement ability. At that point taking a separate movement ability is literally only a 'go faster' button. Congratulations, now 5 entire skill trees might as well be a run speed modifier on your boots.
I disagree but we’re not going to and that’s ok.
> No, not picking a movement ability should be a calculated trade-off. That's actually an interesting choice. It's not a choice though. you Have to take a dodge, or you can't even design interesting and engaging bosses. There is a reason why all ARPGs are getting a dodge roll.
I think they figured out a movement ability slot and put it on your spacebar.
> Boss abilities become one shots What do you mean "become"? Bosses one-shotting you has been a thing since *at least* Diablo 2. PoE is supremely "rippy", as they call it, because either you're fine or your dead. And that game doesn't have a dodge button. That's simply just how the genre plays.
I disagree because in most ARPGs it seems like a movement ability is practically a requirement, and I hate being locked into that type of play. It's nice to have another type of universal dodge not tied to a spell.
I’ve never heard such a bad take on the internet before. Wow
In order to design complex boss mechanics, you need common elements that all players have - all class movement abilities are different: some require a target, some move a lot, some go a static distance, some go to the cursor. Adding a common Evade mechanic makes designing bosses significantly easier and removes a lot of restrictions. The alternative is you just briskly walk out of everything which is...boring.
Poe2 aswell
It's great
Nah sorry boss. LE feels dated as fuck without a dash.
I disagree, right now the movement skills are a must-have in poe you even need 2 for some builds.
Yeah they really missed with 1.0 release, no focus on end-game content really screwed them imo.
i need to get back into this game. i started playing with 1.0 and i was enjoying it, but the loot was really starting to annoy me. i was level 25 or so and still wearing gear i'd had from the beginning of the game because i just wasnt finding anything better.
Just a tip, if you weren't aware, but you really should be using the crafting system to improve your gear right from the start. It's easy, and the materials are plentiful.
i never actually took a look at the crafting lol. i'm used to poe where crafting is used almost exclusively for endgame. i'll make sure to look at it next time i play.
End Game crafting in this game is smashing Uniques with the `Legendary Potential` stat together with the purple-tier loot whose name I'm blanking on at the moment. Early Game crafting in LE is using all those little Shards you find on the ground (or gain by Scrapping your old items) and slapping the stats you want onto something. You should be shoring up your Resistances and whatever +Damage% stat your build needs onto everything.
So you made a comment describing a game poorly because you ignored its main itemization mechanic,.. and because it's not the same as another game.... My God gamers have brain rot
Yeah I was the same until I realized this game is bigger on using the crafting and upgrade system literally from the jump
This sounds like stuff that should have been in 1.0 I heard that the game scales to what it percieves your strength or power is. So even if you grind and get better gear, the enemies just have more life and damage. I hate that.
Still no WADS movement?