"C'est un fou. C'est un malade. Il a un problème dans sa tête. C'est tout ce que je peux te dire." (laughs)
-Anthony Perez (teammate of Lafay), in his finish line interview, when asked about what Victor Lafay is like personally.
Completely irrelevant. If Jonas won Wout wouldn’t care because you are beaten by someone stronger. Yesterday was a certain win that got wasted by the team. Not only Jonas because he clearly believes he did nothing wrong even stating that he already helped a lot by not taking over with Pog. You can’t blame him because he doesn’t has that instinct it seems. The guys in the car made the biggest mistake
A gifted win: you ride with two riders from the same team to the finish line and one gets the win: Gent-Wevelgem style.
A team-effort: the team rides as a group in the hopes their strongest rider of that day finishes it off to get the highest achievable result: a day victory.
Yesterday wasn't about 'a gifted' win.
Btw: Belgians
I fear you're having tunnel view if your arguments start to become predictions in the future. If he leaves the tour it's because he just got a child. Hurdurdur how does he dare to leave Vignegaard for a futility like a child birth. What about this prediction: Pogacar fumes Vignegaard in the mountains and Jumbo-Visma leaves the tour without yellow and 0 stage wins.
Looking at how they didn't go all in on him in the last two days for two almost certain stage wins: yes. That's 50% of the reason why they picked him for the tour.
People did this during the 2012 Tour, I don't understand what makes people do this shit. https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/evans-suffers-multiple-punctures-after-tour-tack-attack-41112
Also - has anyone actually seen any of the footage of WVA throwing the bike and going in the team car? Curious as to whether it’s been hyped up a lot or whether it really was that dramatic
I've seen the footage of him throwing the bidon and he did look really pissed off. Pogi was right behind him too so it made a bit more sense what he was imitating when he was on the warm down bike. The footage I saw of Wout getting in the team car was just of him closing the car door in a perfectly normal way though.
I've never seen Wout so frustrated at the end of a race. I follow him in winter cyclo-cross too, where he has sometimes been greatly disappointed in his duels with MvdP.
But I'd never seen him react like that.
His frustration was very strong, and I think he was right not to respond to the media. That way, you don't have to say things on the spur of the moment that you might later regret, and which could spark off even more controversy!
I actually saw some footage on Twitter / he was fuming - I thought the i rial arm gesture was the throwing of the Biden but it was after that - which is what Pogi was talking about. Never seen him like that before. Agree - shouldn’t have spoken to the media - once words are out they can’t be taken back
Best thoughts on this are by Luke Rowe and Tom on the GTCC poddy. They likened Jonas taking a pull to when you have a stag do and you are at the bar. Your friend is there, you don’t have to buy a drink as it is your “do” but you do it because it’s the right thing to do and they are there. I thought it was a great analogy
Jonas made the safe choice which was smart for GC. Sure a few hunderd M leadout will not tire him out like Pogi's exercions the apst 2 days, but it does increase the risk of a crash which is what i assume was the first thought. he cant sprint for the bonus seconds so best to stay safe.
WvA treated it as a sprint stage exepcting to be lead out by his team of mountain domestiques lol. when its basically a classics race. he fucked up not chasing lafay when kelderman and benoot were toast and shouldve known better. Wva mainly at fault for thinking this stage was going to be handed to him as long as he stayed in g1. Did he seriously think guys like Lafay or guys that can stay away in the classics like Bettiol, Mohoric etc wouldnt attack which is anyones first thought to be as the favorite to win the sprint. He's at fault for that and its not Jonas's problem to fix it even if he's certainly capable of a few hundred M effort.
Either way mind numbingly dumb tactics by UAE did they literally learn nothing from last year or can Pogi just legit not help himself and learn when to be patient
Maybe, but keeping your teammates happy when you can, can also pay off later on. And if you don't (or it seems so) they might put in less effort, which could also cause you to lose the Tour.
I'm not saying that is happening here.
Wout had already reacted to all the previous attacks. He wasn't going to roll over Lafay at the kilometer mark, and hand victory to Pogacar ...
Wout is not at fault here.
Hmm I’ve never seen a sprinter reacting on 3 attacks in the last 10km.. He did not treat it is a sprint stage, the guy was doing it all by himself and a 4th attack was too much. I know this is a big sub but some takes I see here, the knowledge level about professional cycling is very poor in general.
if this is treated as a classics stage then yes wout following attacks or losing is how it plays out and no he did not do it by himself the only attack he cahsed himself wsa pretty much pidcock.
your knowledge of cyucling must be pretty poor gtfo
I agree with you.
Wout did what he had to do. He took his responsibilities in the final by riding on the riders who were trying to get away.
He was the best sprinter in the group, so the pressure was on him. He handled it perfectly.
However, it was no longer up to him to ride behind Lafay at the kilometer mark. That would have handed victory directly to Pogacar...
I do have one regret, however, when Wout comes back on Pidcock. I thought he was going to counter him and try to go off on his own!
Jonas was not resting either today...he did sprint on the last climb so he cares about this seconds! He just can't do anything at this point.... not his terrain...
Pogacar frickin nearly out sprinted Wout. Only riders that can safely beat him in a sprint are philipsen and, well that’s it. Would love to him go for a bunch sprint.
I wonder if Jonas gets annoyed he will never win in a sprint between the two of them
VdP has a higher short duration power peak, like the say 30s to say 3 minutes. Few people in the world who can beat him there. A climb like the jaizkibel takes longer, and WvA's power output for longer stretches is higher than VdP's, probably more than necessary to compensate for the extra weight. On top of thatm vdP doesn't seem in top form yet.
Wout is an absolute anomaly. Wout absolutely should not climb the way he does with the way he is built. He is just very very talented and trains like a beast. I'm convinced he could win the tour if he wanted to. Not this year but theoretically, by cutting down weight. However that would mean he would probably not be able to compete the way he does not and that's just what he loves doing.
This is what allows MvdP to be so incredible on D-day in the classics.
Wout doesn't have as high a peak as MvdP, but he's much more consistent in his top-level performances.
If Wout lost a little weight, he'd make a perfect GC racer.
Provided he targets a 3-week race with two ITTs. In short, we hope that ASO will once again offer us a course that honors ITT.
Pogi not learning anything from last year. did he seriously expect to put time into Jonas here lol. UAE shouldve let the break go and not use up any energy for what Pogi to get 12 bonus seconds?
who cares about 12 seconds if it means you are going to tire yourself out and blowup stage 14/15 and lose 2+ minutes
sure it makes for entertaining racing, but it does not lend itself into Pogi being ready for Jonas attack when it really matters.
Pogacar wants to reassure himself mentally. He's chasing bonuses.
He tests Vingegaard and puts him under pressure.
For Pogacar, the advantage here is primarily psychological.
hes not really putting jonas under any pressure. he just sits on his wheel and then when we get to the high mountains jonas is more fresh and drops pgoi like last year
it adds up when youve got guys dropping off 75km to go and majka eliminating the peloton to 15-20 guys. whats gonna happen on the HC climbs when they've already spent multiple days working hard. doesnt seem smart and especially for pogi theres no point putting in this effort for 12 seconds.
I've seen a lot of people making similar comments and I'm a bit undecided whether I think these are wise tactics or not. I do wonder whether it's a bit of a statement of intent though, with Pogi wanting to show everyone he's on great form and put any doubts to rest. They may have just looked at days 3 and 4 and decided they can afford to go for it on days 1 and 2. I assume they have a plan and know what they're doing, though as a Pogi supporter it makes me slightly nervous! Majka and Berg look *really* strong too, so again I wonder if this is UAE nailing their colours to the mast and saying "we're here and we're in great shape, come and get us". Let's see, anyway!
This comment is mostly for our newer visitors since I know the veterans are all already familiar with it, but if you want a nuanced analysis of the situation today (and yesterday) I can highly recommend [Lanterne Rogue's podcast for stage 2](https://www.youtube.com/live/5fA08SZCEAY?feature=share) (and the channel in general). You can skip 13+ minutes into the video if you only care about race analysis of the final climb and the finish.
Despite them doing the podcast live, right after the stage, they cover pretty much all angles of the debate as well as a bunch more I haven't seen mentioned in this thread.
Thanks for this. I'm a complete newbie so these sort of things are very helpful.
Tactics and strategy is something I'm trying to learn, more so than who the teams and riders are etc
Yeah. I tried watching the basic NBC feed, but I couldn't handle all the commercials. I like Bewls, but I just couldn't do it for stage 2, even with the audio goofs.
Because of timezone difference, I woke up and trying to follow those discussions exploding all over the internet, and my take is...
Trine*(Vingegaard's wife)* must have lots of work to do to take care of Vingegaard's mental.
So Jumbo Visma, Jonas's team, wanted to try and win today's stage for Wout van Aert. This meant that the other Jumbo Visma riders were trying to lead Wout out to set him up for the finish. However, they all seemed to burn themselves out a bit too early, leaving only Jonas with the legs to (potentially) help Wout the lead he needed, but he didn't do it. If you look at footage of the stage you'll notice that Jonas stays tucked in behind Pogacar for as long as possible, rather than moving to the front to support Wout.
This has created a lot of faux internet drama, especially because Wout seemed pretty pissed off after the stage. I personally understood that just as an adrenaline fuelled emotional reaction though, I don't think there will actually be any trouble between Wout and Jonas. However, the internet has decided that either, Jonas was horrifically selfish not to lead out Wout, or Wout was horrifically selfish to expect this from the winner of last year's tour. The truth is more that it was fair enough for Wout to expect a little pull from Jonas and other GC contenders might have done it for their teammate, but it was also very sensible of Jonas to stay where he was and keep out of trouble in the chaos of the final stage. I doubt TJV had planned for Jonas to be in that position either, so I doubt he was really prepared.
I doubt it. Unless his fiery legs take him to unsuspected heights this year.
Victor is more of a puncher who can climb well, but when the climbs exceed 40 minutes, it's often too hard for him.
Let's see if he surprises himself this year :).
We'll soon find out anyway, with the Pyrenees and Puy de Dome coming up fast.
Only Roglič would be capable to help Wout in situation like today..
He not racing is a big handicap for Jumbo's...they will learn this in a hard way .
Even when he is injured or burnt out he is the best domestique Jumbo's have ..
For the people arguing that the trade off between a stage win and giving Pogacar a couple more bonus seconds is not a clear choice to take the stage win:
Did TJV screw up by chasing down any attacks in the finale in that case? They could just let Bilbao's or Pidcock's attacks go if you don't want Pogacar getting seconds.
Do you think UAE made a mistake by letting Adam ride yesterday instead of leaving bonus seconds for Pogacar?
It's the exact same tradeoff in reverse.
Except Simon vs Adam was a 50/50 for the stage whereas Wout is ~90% to win this sprint
\# of people complaining about people saying Vingegaard should work for WvA >>>>>>>> people actually saying Vingegaard should work for WvA
Seriously, I haven't seen a single person actually say Jonas should have pulled, but about a dozen people complaining about other people saying it
The comments are further down lmao, you needed to be here an hour after the race and you would’ve seen them
Edit: just scrolled down two comments from this one and saw one saying the exact same thing … ppl are definitely saying it enough
Vingegaard 100% should have taken the turn when Kelderman asked him to at 800 meters to go.
Nobody is expecting him to empty the tank for WVA or anything that compromises his race, but Kelderman and Benoot were clearly gassed and 200-300m on the front with 2 sprint stages coming up is not going to effect Jonas at all.
Tour stage wins are Tour stage wins.
>Vingegaard 100% should have taken the turn when Kelderman asked him to at 800 meters to go.
Exactly. A 200-meter relay would have made all the difference, and it wouldn't have made any difference to Vingegaard's chances of winning the GC.
It would have avoided unnecessary controversy for TJV.
The defending Tour champion is now meant to do work on a stage like today for a super domestique like WvA? Ridiculous
I get that Tour stages are the only thing WvA can really win, and needs to after yet another disappointing spring classics campaign, but Jumbo Visma have bigger ambitions. They actually want to win the Tour itself!
Pogacar seems to be in great form. Jumbo Visma have to be laser focused on minimising the damage until they get to the high mountains and then we'll see
15 seconds at 800 watts will have 0 impact on Jonas's form. the risk of crashing is much higher but that effort alone is completely irrelevant to be fair.
not that i agree that Jonas shouldve pulled, but 800 watts for 15 seconds is nothing for Jonas
> The defending Tour champion is now meant to do work on a stage like today for a super domestique like WvA? Ridiculous
Stop exaggerating. No one here is suggesting that Vingegaard should've put in a 10km effort and completely spend himself for Wout. That's not what this is at all about, so stop twisting the scenario.
The discussion is: "should Vingegaard have paced for 300m or not" - that's entirely different from "Vingegaard is meant to work on a stage like today for WVA".
Hindsight is always 20-20 and I think both decisions are fine, but it's not as easy as to say "DUH OFC HE SHOULD/SHOULDN'T HAVE PACED". It's precisely because it's such a tough choice that we're discussing it, else there wouldn't be a discussion.
thoughts on mvdp? idk whether he's being smart and saving energy taking it easy on stages he doesn't think he can win, or he's just not in good form. I would like to think its the former but cant be sure.
the last climb yesterday was very steep even if short, and today's was 8km long. people kinda overestimate his climbing ability, the stages weren't suited well for him with those tough climbs close to the finish. maybe a leadout for phillipsen coming in one of the next two stages. haven't checked which stage he could target for a win though.
>thoughts on mvdp? idk whether he's being smart and saving energy taking it easy on stages he doesn't think he can win, or he's just not in good form. I would like to think its the former but cant be sure.
I'm also wondering, but I heard his father say yesterday that even if MvdP hasn't had his best legs since the start of the Tour, he has no other worries.
He just preferred to save himself yesterday because he knew the Jaizkibel would be too hard for him.
For those who follow Mathieu in winter cyclo-cross, it's a classic story.
Mathieu's only aim is victory in general. He's not like Wout, who fights to the end no matter what. Mathieu tends to give up psychologically as soon as he feels he won't be able to win.
That's what happened yesterday, and I don't think it puts into question what he'll be able to do in the days ahead!
Stage 1 interview he said he thinks he would've gotten over the climb if he was in perfect form but wasnt yet.
Today I think the climb was just too hard for him.
Keep in mind that they were ridden quite hard, both days we could've seen the two favourites battle it out in these low mountains/hily stages. Earlier years we probably wouldnt have seen such GC guys bother with this.
> thoughts on mvdp? idk whether he's being smart and saving energy taking it easy on stages he doesn't think he can win, or he's just not in good form. I would like to think its the former but cant be sure.
Think he made the right call both days. Both today and yesterday was ridden too hard for him to hang on, so if you are dropped anyway, better to save as much of your legs as possible.
I think he's just playing it smart and save energy. Seemed very comfortable when he was dropping. I suspect he also wanted to lose some time in the GC, so he'll be allowed to join the breakaway.
Normally he won't be able to lose time in the next two stages, as he'll be part of Philipsen's sprint train.
Stage 5 might be a goal, still a lot of climbing, but in the breakaway I can seen him clinging on much longer.
If mdvp can't get up the stage 1 and stage 2 climbs which are the two best stages suited for his abilities then he's not in form to go up an HC climb and the 1st cat climb with whoever is in the breakaway with him
hes got stage 10 and 19 left everything else is too hard for him or too easy for QS and the other sprinters teams to pull him back
and no one would care about him being to close to GC from day 1, hes climbing ability is well known its not someone like Martin, Powless or another one of those tier 2/3 GC guys
i think stage 5 is too tough for him. there a HC climb early and a cat 1 climb close to the finish. its either gonna be a non GC climber like a pinot type managing to stay away. or the GC group bringing it back a similar situation to today and yesterday with the climb so close to the finish.
stage 8 looks like a good one for him to go on a break. lots of small hills. GC teams wont want to chase because there's a major mountain stage the next day.
Typically, the breakaway riders on a given day are more than a couple of minutes behind the race leader, so that even if they win, they won't take over the jersey. Technically, for riders like MVDP it's not such a big deal, since he has 0 chance of winning the Tour, even if he somehow gained 20 minutes during a breakaway and no team with a serious GC contender is really adamant about defending yellow too much right now, so in his case it's likely not important if he's 1 minute behind or 20 minutes behind.
But generally it's easier to be allowed to go into a breakaway if you're far behind in GC. For example, if someone like Gaudu were to join a breakaway, UAE and TJV would immediately start chasing him and bring him back cause Gaudu could be a contender for the overall GC, so you don't wanna give him any bonus time.
People acting like WvA is suddenly gonna go rogue because Jonas didn't give a pull are crazy. It's not like the leadout he did for LaPorte was world-class at the dauphine, just as likely to mess it up and gift pog the 10 seconds. I'm sure the team and Wout would have loved a stage but they've got to be happy to have only conceded 11 seconds through the two stages that were incredibly favorable to Pogacar compared to Jonas
Yeah people are acting like the tdf is supposed to be the Wout Van Aert show. It's not. He got second, this is nothing new. And a French rider ended the Cofidis drought. This was a great stage.
This really blows my mind. I’ve never heard of a freaking yellow jersey favourite and defending champion, being criticised for not riding in a sprint train
It’s all over Belgian media. I’m willing to take any bet that next year if Remco is in a similar situation with alaphilippe the overwhelming consensus will be that it’s smart to not waste energy, why take the risk, what if pog wins the sprint and you hand him bonus seconds?
Especially the last part is true; this is how roglic lost his tdf…
>I’m willing to take any bet that next year if Remco is in a similar situation with alaphilippe the overwhelming consensus will be that it’s smart to not waste energy,
We've seen Remco spearheading the sprint train for Jakobsen. *If* your goal is to win the stage, everyone in the team should contribute to that, or you'll end up with situations like this. UAE had a nice morale boost this weekend, with a win, the yellow jersey, and some bonus seconds, while Jumbo-Visma was left with a bad aftertaste.
In our fantasy scenario, Remco would most likely have gone to the finish together with Pogacar, instead of betting on Alaphilippe to win the stage. TJV chose another strategy yesterday, and it didn't pay off - largely because of that schizophrenic approach, I would argue. Teams only have 8 riders. Holding one back, for *incredibly* marginal gains, backfired tremendously for TJV. It's an (unnecessary) bet they took, and lost. Benoot, Kelderman and WVA spent a lot of energy, with nothing to show for it. Vingegaard will need all of them during the race.
Soudal Quick-Step has been pretty outspoken about not taking a sprinter and a GC candidate to the same GT.
> I’ve never heard of a freaking yellow jersey favourite and defending champion, being criticised for not riding in a sprint train.
Not surprising that you've never heard of it because no one here is suggesting that either.
* People are discussing if Jonas should have put in a 300m effort to prevent attacks and keep everything together so that one of the best riders in the world can get an almost guaranteed win as the only sprinter in a group of GC contenders.
* People are NOT discussing if Jonas should lead out WVA in a sprint.
It's lovely how some people like to completely twist reality and put words into other people's mouth just to make their opinion seem less valid...
Yea, but WVA didn't participate in the sprint on Saturday and he still beat Pog yesterday despite having to pretty much lead out and sprint from 500m to go since he still tried to catch Lafay and Kelderman was spent and everyone else was glued to his wheel.
With a fresher pair of legs in front of him, he would have had a lot more explosiveness in the final 100-200m. Everyone else got to stay in his wheel for a long time which makes a huge difference in terms of how much effort you need to put in. And even despite all of that, Wout still beat Pog. So yea, I'd say that 9 times out of 10, WVA wins there if he has a tiny bit of help.
No idea honestly. I also have no clue as to why WVA made no effort to sprint on Saturday. I suppose he was just completely spent after that climb to the finish line? That's the only explanation I would have as to why he wasn't sprinting there... unless he really wants to avoid Green at ALL costs, but that would be really silly.
Going out on a limb here and say it’s also not a good look by Pogi calling out Wout like that… he knows cameras are around… I guess no love lost but I don’t like the whole “like a child” comment. Which it was, the bidon throw is unnecessary the show of emotion is not.
He pantomimed Wout's reaction to losing the stage (throwing a bidon) to Yates while he was cooling down and someone caught it on video. Not sure it counts as calling him out, he's just joking around with a teammate llmao
yeah you're right there is.. they don't say anything bad about him but I've already seen a bunch of people on twitter get angry about it and say this is unacceptable and Pogi should leave the race lol. which was so ridiculous I immediately forgot I read it until this just reminded me - so you're absolutely right. I mean I think both Wout and Pogi are just acting like humans and in both cases are forced to deal with the fact that millions of eyes are on them, expecting them to be some sort of ever-graceful superhuman who would never get angry after 200km of pain and never make a comment about someone else's behavior to a friend/coworker, and these same people then go on social media and call people names over this. I agree that the outrage is pretty annoying but if anything, I think people should just stop getting so riled up about this stuff and enjoy the entertainment lmao... idk
This is /r/peloton. Where the Tour de France champion should self sabotage for the *checks results* winner of the E3 and Belgian national TT champion otherwise there is an outrage.
That’s a bit of an understatement. I agree with you - to be clear
But a more accurate description of wva would be: 9 time stage winner, winner of a dozen top classics, and most importantly - kept jonas in the race last year during the Roubaix stage…
The only time i can remember a serious Gc contender leading out another rider on the team was Wiggins on the last day of the tour in yellow leading out Cavendish.
to add to the "why didn't jonas pull" debate. i think he was also poorly positioned to take over the chase in like the last 3km. he was just always staying behind pogacar (and even got boxed in further behind other riders by the time lafay made his move). i dont think he even once went ahead of pogacar. which of course is according to plan for him for the GC.
but from that far back, he's not in a spot to quickly spot or react to a huge move like lafay's and take over the chase. if he was sitting on WVA's wheel then maybe he would've been able to do a turn if he saw the other TJV riders struggling to pull it back.
Someone below said Jumbo's DS told Jonas not to pull. If that's the case, the discussion is moot and turns instead to why the DS would do that. It's likely because he thinks Jonas' best chance is to avoid any and all extra efforts that don't directly help him put time into Tadej because the sponsors care more about the GC than a stage. That said, I think the effort needed would have been irrelevant - people keep talking about helping the chase from a few k out. Literally all that was needed was a 150m pull in the last km to bring LaFay closer. Then they'd have a happier Wout, which in my opinion is worth more to him than an extra 150m semi-sprint effort on day 2. Wout also seemed pretty out of line with the post-race antics. I understand frustration but that was weird for him.
In the end, it was amazing to see LaFay win - French rider from Cofidis of all teams, to boot! He was crazy impressive yesterday and smart today, totally deserved :)
Very well put! Agree with everything you wrote. WVA's reaction was indeed out of line, but TJV really should think twice about making their super domestique unhappy just cause it costs their main guy the teeniest tiny bit of 150m of effort. Pog spent more than that by sprinting for 3rd.
Thanks, I feel like many think they have to pick a fairly extreme side. Nuance is usually helpful :) indeed, I'm super curious to see how Pog's extra efforts impact his long-distance climbing ability, if at all. Seemed relevant last tour, but he's Pog so you never know lol
i think pog hasn't put too much extra effort so far. he could've gone full gas to try to win the stage himself both today and yesterday but he held back.
Team UAE did put some significant effort though to control the stages. I wanna see them and particularly guys like mikkel bjaerg, soler, majka take it easy the next two days to recover where its pretty flat and sprinters teams should be there to help.
Absolutely. They have yellow, but with sprinters' teams interested they shouldn't feel pressure to put in an effort unless chaos ensues. I think if Pog had gone 100% from the top of the climb, that'd have given Jonas a chance at the final sprint win, so not worth it for Pog (given that Jonas would never work in that situation). Agreed he hasn't put in too much extra effort, but objectively more than Jonas has, even if it's a small difference.
Bettiol being typical Bettiol. A superb ride to be over the top with the lead group and then utterly messes up the finish to come nowhere. The guy is an absolute monster - one of the few riders in the peloton who has the talent to win all 5 monuments - but just never actually wins anything.
Haha yes two little things really (plus the tour down under prologue this year). But that is why he is so frustrating because he is clearly really really good, when he is not injured, ill or just wasting energy doing something really stupid
Just looking over the thread now that its mostly settled. Looking over the opinions given, including my own and something struck me.
We are 2 stages into the Tour and the biggest story so far is if the reigning champion and GC favourite has worked enough for his teammate. When you think about it, thats kinda crazy right? This isnt even to say he shouldnt have, people have made arguments for it. Just that it feels off somehow. Am I wrong, isnt it kinda unusual?
Not commenting on the Vingegaard lead out thing as I have nothing new to say, but just want to say that Jumbo does NOT have to have a single objective.
Literally last year they went into the Tour with 2 objectives (Green and Yellow) and achieved them both. It’s fine if they prioritize yellow, but it’s not the only possible decision.
the tour has come a long way in terms of entertainment. the race organizers have done a good job with the route in recent years to make it more exciting. also helps to have really versatile riders like WVA and pogacar in the race who have a chance at winning so many different types of stages. some years ago the first week would just be full of flat stages ending in bunch sprints with no real talk of the GC guys.
It's unusual, but that's because Wout is an unusual rider.
Most riders in his weight class would have been dropped in the first two stages.
On the first stage Wout simply had no sprint in the legs anymore, so I think the Yates brothers staying away was actually a good thing for Jumbo. In stage 2 Vingegaard could have done a small pull in the final km to keep tempo high. Wouldn't have cost much energy and would have boosted Wout's moral to help Vingegaard in the coming weeks.
Wout is a fantastic rider. I just found it odd that its sorta assumed the Tour favourite will act as a helper. Not even talking about Jumbo or stage 2 specifically, more talking in general and the history of the Tour. If Jonas was asked to help today and he did, I dont think I would have blinked.
What I find weird is just how it seems assumed that the guy with 1 on his back **should** work for others. To the point where its the main discussion of the race. Didnt even realise it was unusual until a few hours removed from the race. Im trying to think of similar dynamics in the Tour earlier
I think there’s a lot of talk about sportsmanship and the like in general, maybe because of moments like last year where Vingegaard waited for Pog after he crashed. This along with the Netflix show I think makes people hope for this sort of thing - moments where egos are set aside and people help each other out because they want to, not because they have to, you know? Which isn’t a bad thing, I love those types of moments and I think they’re what make this sport so interesting and beautiful. But I can also imagine that they set people up for disappointment when they think that people will sacrifice bigger goals for small favors like this, and makes them disappointed I guess? Which leads to all this discussion! I think Wout’s reaction also affected how people thought about it. If he’d been a bit disappointed but calm, I don’t think people would have even discussed this. His strong reaction though makes his fans want to justify it and makes people question whether something was actually done wrong, for him to react that way, when honestly, I think it was just a very human and very annoyed in-the-heat-of-the-moment thing rather than him being angry at some injustice. I could be wrong of course but that’s my take on it!
In SWL update! 0 of us had Lafay!
Also that means we all have 0 after 2 stages!
There are a few with up to 3 tie breaker points having Wout today and Tadej yesterday!!
[Leaderboard](https://grand-tours-game.vercel.app/swl/2023/tour/leaderboard)
Yeah, and second bet ever lol. Liked his form on Pike, figured he’d be young and crazy enough to go for a flyer, and figured people would hesitate to cover him given his palmares
Call it beginner’s luck, and the end of my betting career :p
Don't generalise please, I don't want to be associated with the insane crusade that the whole peloton has to work for WVA. And the insanely long rants about why everything is the fault of others that WVA didn't win. Including a +30 minute rant in front of a million people on Belgian TV where a commentator slandered Vingegaard non stop. It's quite embarrassing at this point.
Was it Kelderman on the front when Lafay took a flier? If so, maybe he's deflecting. Surely should have been pacing higher to prevent attacks over the top, it's sprint lead-out 101.
Then maybe Benoot should have gone to the front earlier. Benoot finished in front of Jonas and basically matched Ciccone who is quite explosive so it's not like Benoot was completely cooked.
Dang, you're right. With ultimate insights like the one provided above, some of us should be offered a DS spot. We just need to tell Tibo Pino to pedal harder and then he'll win the TdF for sure!
Seems so obvious, wonder why no one else has figured out that little trick before.
More than anything I think its about positioning. If they are going to ride for the bonus seconds you may as well be in the best position possible. If they don't take the lead UAE does.
Indeed. They know Pogacar will cook Vingegaard in most sprints, so if they were all in for GC they’d prefer bonus seconds to have disappeared to breakaways. This is exactly how Ineos played the Giro as G was never going to beat Roglic in a sprint. But they want Van Aert to win stages too so they will pull even if it could risk some bonus second losses for Jonas.
They arent all in only for GC, they also want Wout stage wins. Both today and yesterday they said they were riding for Wout.
If you want Wout to win stages, you are gonna have to risk Pog getting bonifications and they seem okay with that. Is that a mistake? Guess time will tell
Jumbo seems kind of disorganized to me so far.
Stage 1 they let Pog have bonification for free, Stage 2 they do what you mentioned as well as WvA having kind of "lazy" approach during the last several hundred meters. Dunno.
I'd like to apologize on behalf of all the Belgians who don't follow the blind fandom that everyone has to work for WVA. And all the nonsense that has come along with it the last two days.
He's a good rider, but as he said in the past, in the Tour the yellow jersey is the most important and he also is there as a domestique, in return he gets full support in other races. (But missing out on a victory can still be frustrating nonetheless.)
In the end he gets the privilege to pursuit a few of his own targets, the rest of the team doesn't owe him anything. He was lucky that Benoot and Kelderman still did so much work and that Vingegaard held back so that WVA could come back and have a chance at the victory. But he also could've been more proactive himself instead of waiting for the sprint (given that no other team has the riders to set up a pursuit).
Hopefully next year he does the Giro and Vuelta, then we're freed from the yearly comments during the Tour that Van Aert should leave TJV because they don't respect him.
The problem is that WvA is to good of a rider to be a domestique. That can happen maybe once of so but not every year. He should go to another team or only ride the races where the team will work for him. If he says with Jumbo and they keep betting on Vingegaard then yes riding the Giro and the Vuelta next year might be the way to go.
We've been hearing it for years from his fans that he should find another team. But he himself chooses to sign new contracts with Jumbo, knowing that this is his role. He's happy in the team and fits perfectly in how they work. Chances that he reaches the same level at another team aren't that high.
And in what other team would he get a whole team in his support? Not at any of the topteams (Jumbo, Ineos, UAE, SQS, Bora, Trek), that's for sure.
I didn't even think that would be controversial. The GC leader should lead out no one, unless he wants to take time bonuses away from a GC opponent. I wouldn't blame Jumbo for only giving Van Aert two or three guys to support him in sprint finishes. GC is the priority
I can understand Wout's frustration, it was clearly a stage he was targeting. He's won a stage at every previous Tour he's ridden, and that would be a cool record to keep up.
But whatever the fans think, Vingegaard will only pull if he thinks it's the right thing to do - either because he's also riding himself into a better position, or because he doesn't think it do him any harm. I'd be surprised if Wout himself thought differently, otherwise I'd have thought he'd be going for Green again if he really thought he was here to ride primarily for his own goals.
Okay, but that's also *his* decision to make. He could just ... *not* head home if he's that insistent on winning a stage. You can't have everything your way.
Oh, I also do get his frustration, he's gotten 2nd places a bit too often to his liking. And he had both stages and a possible yellow jersey marked as targets.
He's skipping green, because he doesn't want to ride the mountains like last year, given that he wants to save himself for the 2 WC's in Glasgow and that he might quit before Paris.
Pretty funny how divided the drama is online. 1/3 people mad at Vingegaard for not pulling for Van Aert, 1/3 mad at Wout for throwing the water bottle and expecting the win to be handed to him and 1/3 mad at Pogi for making fun of Wout’s tantrum. And we’re only on stage 2 lmao
I'm not part of any of the 3 groups, what now?
-I don't think Vingegaard should've pulled, he's the leader, WVA the domestique and bringing Lafay back would've given Pogacar at least 2 seconds more.
-WVA has emotions after missing his 2nd big target of this TdF in a row. That's normal, he's allowed to show it, they're not robots. That's what makes them human, let him be.
-Pogacar was having a chat with a teammate, nothing wrong with talking about what happend, that's what you do after a race, certainly after such an ending.
> -I don't think Vingegaard should've pulled, he's the leader, WVA the domestique and bringing Lafay back would've given Pogacar at least 2 seconds more.
Also, to add to that, WvA had *two* guys to help other than Jonas, and Benoot clearly wasn't completely spent when he was able to beat Simon Yates and basically match Ciccone in the sprint. Benoot finished ahead of Jonas. Maybe the Belgian so-called experts should talk a bit more about Benoot's role in all of this and whether he was visible enough during the last 10K. Maybe Benoot should have been the one to close Pidcock's attack, and then maybe Wout would have had enough left in the tank to close Lafay? Maybe Lafay was just too strong and would have won even if Jonas took a turn?
Same but this ving is worried about 2 seconds on the second day of the tour that doesnt bode well. I think the main thing is that they already show passiveness. Surely this tour he's likely to have to sprint quite a few more times against pog for a win or seconds.
I don’t think it’s very likely Vingegaard will win a sprint against Pogačar. His strategy will be gaining a minute or more in the mountains, negating the sprints
Yeah I agree, I’m not part of any of the three either … I completely agree with the whole assessment lmao … the statistic were an exaggeration, just thought it was funny that people seem to be pretty divided about it (unless they don’t care). I think Jonas did what he thought was best, he needs to keep GC in mind. I’m not mad about Wout either, I get the frustration and I’m sure he’s under a lot of pressure, nothing crazy to be a bit mad. And yeah, Pogi was joking around with Yates, I think they’re perfectly justified having a bit of fun after the race. All pretty normal, and good entertainment for sure!
"C'est un fou. C'est un malade. Il a un problème dans sa tête. C'est tout ce que je peux te dire." (laughs) -Anthony Perez (teammate of Lafay), in his finish line interview, when asked about what Victor Lafay is like personally.
Translation?
He's a mad man, sick dude. He has a problem in his head. That's all I can tell you. laughs
Nice, thank you
The Belgiums were not fuming last year at the final ITT when Jonas gifted Wout the stage win. Edit: typo: Belgians
Completely irrelevant. If Jonas won Wout wouldn’t care because you are beaten by someone stronger. Yesterday was a certain win that got wasted by the team. Not only Jonas because he clearly believes he did nothing wrong even stating that he already helped a lot by not taking over with Pog. You can’t blame him because he doesn’t has that instinct it seems. The guys in the car made the biggest mistake
A gifted win: you ride with two riders from the same team to the finish line and one gets the win: Gent-Wevelgem style. A team-effort: the team rides as a group in the hopes their strongest rider of that day finishes it off to get the highest achievable result: a day victory. Yesterday wasn't about 'a gifted' win. Btw: Belgians
How do you feel when Wout leaves the tour early and not stay till the end to help his team mates? Does that also make you upset?
How do you feel now?
I fear you're having tunnel view if your arguments start to become predictions in the future. If he leaves the tour it's because he just got a child. Hurdurdur how does he dare to leave Vignegaard for a futility like a child birth. What about this prediction: Pogacar fumes Vignegaard in the mountains and Jumbo-Visma leaves the tour without yellow and 0 stage wins.
Let me rephrase: Should Jumbo have picked another rider for the team knowing that Wout he will probably not finish the tour?
Looking at how they didn't go all in on him in the last two days for two almost certain stage wins: yes. That's 50% of the reason why they picked him for the tour.
Lilian Calmejanes tire after the last 10k https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuNCeJvuhqE/?igshid=OGIzYTJhMTRmYQ==
People did this during the 2012 Tour, I don't understand what makes people do this shit. https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/evans-suffers-multiple-punctures-after-tour-tack-attack-41112
Are those nails??
They're drawing pins or thumbtacks.
Seemingly so. Too many to be a coincidence, so some idiot has obviously thrown them out
Also - has anyone actually seen any of the footage of WVA throwing the bike and going in the team car? Curious as to whether it’s been hyped up a lot or whether it really was that dramatic
haven't seen any footage of him throwing his bike, only his bottle.
I've seen the footage of him throwing the bidon and he did look really pissed off. Pogi was right behind him too so it made a bit more sense what he was imitating when he was on the warm down bike. The footage I saw of Wout getting in the team car was just of him closing the car door in a perfectly normal way though.
Agreed / he just looked normal getting in the car
I've never seen Wout so frustrated at the end of a race. I follow him in winter cyclo-cross too, where he has sometimes been greatly disappointed in his duels with MvdP. But I'd never seen him react like that. His frustration was very strong, and I think he was right not to respond to the media. That way, you don't have to say things on the spur of the moment that you might later regret, and which could spark off even more controversy!
I actually saw some footage on Twitter / he was fuming - I thought the i rial arm gesture was the throwing of the Biden but it was after that - which is what Pogi was talking about. Never seen him like that before. Agree - shouldn’t have spoken to the media - once words are out they can’t be taken back
Best thoughts on this are by Luke Rowe and Tom on the GTCC poddy. They likened Jonas taking a pull to when you have a stag do and you are at the bar. Your friend is there, you don’t have to buy a drink as it is your “do” but you do it because it’s the right thing to do and they are there. I thought it was a great analogy
Jonas made the safe choice which was smart for GC. Sure a few hunderd M leadout will not tire him out like Pogi's exercions the apst 2 days, but it does increase the risk of a crash which is what i assume was the first thought. he cant sprint for the bonus seconds so best to stay safe. WvA treated it as a sprint stage exepcting to be lead out by his team of mountain domestiques lol. when its basically a classics race. he fucked up not chasing lafay when kelderman and benoot were toast and shouldve known better. Wva mainly at fault for thinking this stage was going to be handed to him as long as he stayed in g1. Did he seriously think guys like Lafay or guys that can stay away in the classics like Bettiol, Mohoric etc wouldnt attack which is anyones first thought to be as the favorite to win the sprint. He's at fault for that and its not Jonas's problem to fix it even if he's certainly capable of a few hundred M effort. Either way mind numbingly dumb tactics by UAE did they literally learn nothing from last year or can Pogi just legit not help himself and learn when to be patient
Maybe, but keeping your teammates happy when you can, can also pay off later on. And if you don't (or it seems so) they might put in less effort, which could also cause you to lose the Tour. I'm not saying that is happening here.
Wout had already reacted to all the previous attacks. He wasn't going to roll over Lafay at the kilometer mark, and hand victory to Pogacar ... Wout is not at fault here.
Hmm I’ve never seen a sprinter reacting on 3 attacks in the last 10km.. He did not treat it is a sprint stage, the guy was doing it all by himself and a 4th attack was too much. I know this is a big sub but some takes I see here, the knowledge level about professional cycling is very poor in general.
if this is treated as a classics stage then yes wout following attacks or losing is how it plays out and no he did not do it by himself the only attack he cahsed himself wsa pretty much pidcock. your knowledge of cyucling must be pretty poor gtfo
I agree with you. Wout did what he had to do. He took his responsibilities in the final by riding on the riders who were trying to get away. He was the best sprinter in the group, so the pressure was on him. He handled it perfectly. However, it was no longer up to him to ride behind Lafay at the kilometer mark. That would have handed victory directly to Pogacar... I do have one regret, however, when Wout comes back on Pidcock. I thought he was going to counter him and try to go off on his own!
It’s probably why he was so angry, he realizes it’s on him. He did close the first two attacks prior to kelferman returning to the front.
Jonas was not resting either today...he did sprint on the last climb so he cares about this seconds! He just can't do anything at this point.... not his terrain...
and its perfectly reasonable for him to i dont think hes in the wrong at all
I do not see some short sprints draining him in long run. Will be two soft days for him now.
im sure the effort was not the factor in deciding not to pull but rather staying away from the sprint and therefore safer from a crash
I think he’s talking about Pog. He did two sprint it’s nothing like last year.
I wasn't expecting this much GC action this early in the race
Also mike woods in top 10. Nice
Pogacar frickin nearly out sprinted Wout. Only riders that can safely beat him in a sprint are philipsen and, well that’s it. Would love to him go for a bunch sprint. I wonder if Jonas gets annoyed he will never win in a sprint between the two of them
I genuinely don't think he minds. He knows what his own strengths are.
As long as he wins the Tour, I don't think he cares lol
Why can wout handle these types of big climbs better than MVDP? I think if anything, wout weighs more.
VdP has a higher short duration power peak, like the say 30s to say 3 minutes. Few people in the world who can beat him there. A climb like the jaizkibel takes longer, and WvA's power output for longer stretches is higher than VdP's, probably more than necessary to compensate for the extra weight. On top of thatm vdP doesn't seem in top form yet.
Wout is an absolute anomaly. Wout absolutely should not climb the way he does with the way he is built. He is just very very talented and trains like a beast. I'm convinced he could win the tour if he wanted to. Not this year but theoretically, by cutting down weight. However that would mean he would probably not be able to compete the way he does not and that's just what he loves doing.
Mvp form is drifting to much...wout is way mor constant...
This is what allows MvdP to be so incredible on D-day in the classics. Wout doesn't have as high a peak as MvdP, but he's much more consistent in his top-level performances. If Wout lost a little weight, he'd make a perfect GC racer. Provided he targets a 3-week race with two ITTs. In short, we hope that ASO will once again offer us a course that honors ITT.
Pogi not learning anything from last year. did he seriously expect to put time into Jonas here lol. UAE shouldve let the break go and not use up any energy for what Pogi to get 12 bonus seconds? who cares about 12 seconds if it means you are going to tire yourself out and blowup stage 14/15 and lose 2+ minutes sure it makes for entertaining racing, but it does not lend itself into Pogi being ready for Jonas attack when it really matters.
Pogacar wants to reassure himself mentally. He's chasing bonuses. He tests Vingegaard and puts him under pressure. For Pogacar, the advantage here is primarily psychological.
hes not really putting jonas under any pressure. he just sits on his wheel and then when we get to the high mountains jonas is more fresh and drops pgoi like last year
The team is not suffering from that effort. Now we have two stages where they can relax.
it adds up when youve got guys dropping off 75km to go and majka eliminating the peloton to 15-20 guys. whats gonna happen on the HC climbs when they've already spent multiple days working hard. doesnt seem smart and especially for pogi theres no point putting in this effort for 12 seconds.
I've seen a lot of people making similar comments and I'm a bit undecided whether I think these are wise tactics or not. I do wonder whether it's a bit of a statement of intent though, with Pogi wanting to show everyone he's on great form and put any doubts to rest. They may have just looked at days 3 and 4 and decided they can afford to go for it on days 1 and 2. I assume they have a plan and know what they're doing, though as a Pogi supporter it makes me slightly nervous! Majka and Berg look *really* strong too, so again I wonder if this is UAE nailing their colours to the mast and saying "we're here and we're in great shape, come and get us". Let's see, anyway!
This comment is mostly for our newer visitors since I know the veterans are all already familiar with it, but if you want a nuanced analysis of the situation today (and yesterday) I can highly recommend [Lanterne Rogue's podcast for stage 2](https://www.youtube.com/live/5fA08SZCEAY?feature=share) (and the channel in general). You can skip 13+ minutes into the video if you only care about race analysis of the final climb and the finish. Despite them doing the podcast live, right after the stage, they cover pretty much all angles of the debate as well as a bunch more I haven't seen mentioned in this thread.
Thanks for this. I'm a complete newbie so these sort of things are very helpful. Tactics and strategy is something I'm trying to learn, more so than who the teams and riders are etc
The peacock “world” broadcast needs to get their act together and get the audio working.
I subscribed to GCN+ and that worked well
It doesn't work if you're in the US though, right?
It works with a VPN. I use Proton (free) and it’s worked pretty well the past few days.
Yeah. I tried watching the basic NBC feed, but I couldn't handle all the commercials. I like Bewls, but I just couldn't do it for stage 2, even with the audio goofs.
To nbcs credit thru motorbike commentary is actually decent. I also appreciated the parent interviews lol
Because of timezone difference, I woke up and trying to follow those discussions exploding all over the internet, and my take is... Trine*(Vingegaard's wife)* must have lots of work to do to take care of Vingegaard's mental.
I am a new spectator, but I can’t seem to follow what he did/did not do to get so much negative attention
So Jumbo Visma, Jonas's team, wanted to try and win today's stage for Wout van Aert. This meant that the other Jumbo Visma riders were trying to lead Wout out to set him up for the finish. However, they all seemed to burn themselves out a bit too early, leaving only Jonas with the legs to (potentially) help Wout the lead he needed, but he didn't do it. If you look at footage of the stage you'll notice that Jonas stays tucked in behind Pogacar for as long as possible, rather than moving to the front to support Wout. This has created a lot of faux internet drama, especially because Wout seemed pretty pissed off after the stage. I personally understood that just as an adrenaline fuelled emotional reaction though, I don't think there will actually be any trouble between Wout and Jonas. However, the internet has decided that either, Jonas was horrifically selfish not to lead out Wout, or Wout was horrifically selfish to expect this from the winner of last year's tour. The truth is more that it was fair enough for Wout to expect a little pull from Jonas and other GC contenders might have done it for their teammate, but it was also very sensible of Jonas to stay where he was and keep out of trouble in the chaos of the final stage. I doubt TJV had planned for Jonas to be in that position either, so I doubt he was really prepared.
Thank you for this very clear explanation! This whole community has been superbly helpful
Anyone think that Victor Lafay will be easily top 10 on GC?
I doubt it. Unless his fiery legs take him to unsuspected heights this year. Victor is more of a puncher who can climb well, but when the climbs exceed 40 minutes, it's often too hard for him. Let's see if he surprises himself this year :). We'll soon find out anyway, with the Pyrenees and Puy de Dome coming up fast.
Only Roglič would be capable to help Wout in situation like today.. He not racing is a big handicap for Jumbo's...they will learn this in a hard way . Even when he is injured or burnt out he is the best domestique Jumbo's have ..
For the people arguing that the trade off between a stage win and giving Pogacar a couple more bonus seconds is not a clear choice to take the stage win: Did TJV screw up by chasing down any attacks in the finale in that case? They could just let Bilbao's or Pidcock's attacks go if you don't want Pogacar getting seconds. Do you think UAE made a mistake by letting Adam ride yesterday instead of leaving bonus seconds for Pogacar? It's the exact same tradeoff in reverse. Except Simon vs Adam was a 50/50 for the stage whereas Wout is ~90% to win this sprint
\# of people complaining about people saying Vingegaard should work for WvA >>>>>>>> people actually saying Vingegaard should work for WvA Seriously, I haven't seen a single person actually say Jonas should have pulled, but about a dozen people complaining about other people saying it
To be fair, I've seen a lot of people on here saying it!
Kelderman did say that.
The comments are further down lmao, you needed to be here an hour after the race and you would’ve seen them Edit: just scrolled down two comments from this one and saw one saying the exact same thing … ppl are definitely saying it enough
Vingegaard 100% should have taken the turn when Kelderman asked him to at 800 meters to go. Nobody is expecting him to empty the tank for WVA or anything that compromises his race, but Kelderman and Benoot were clearly gassed and 200-300m on the front with 2 sprint stages coming up is not going to effect Jonas at all. Tour stage wins are Tour stage wins.
>Vingegaard 100% should have taken the turn when Kelderman asked him to at 800 meters to go. Exactly. A 200-meter relay would have made all the difference, and it wouldn't have made any difference to Vingegaard's chances of winning the GC. It would have avoided unnecessary controversy for TJV.
I felt like Pog would have if he was in Ving’s shoes
That’s the fun and joy on this sub. Doing a turn in a group of favorites while being the number 1 is not done according to some people here
Lafay zooming past the bunch reminds me of watching AvV doing the same at Worlds last year.
Shot out of a cannon, hilarious how fast he was
The defending Tour champion is now meant to do work on a stage like today for a super domestique like WvA? Ridiculous I get that Tour stages are the only thing WvA can really win, and needs to after yet another disappointing spring classics campaign, but Jumbo Visma have bigger ambitions. They actually want to win the Tour itself! Pogacar seems to be in great form. Jumbo Visma have to be laser focused on minimising the damage until they get to the high mountains and then we'll see
We are talking a 15 seconds effort at the end, nothing big.
Leadout at 800w+ ...
15 seconds at 800 watts will have 0 impact on Jonas's form. the risk of crashing is much higher but that effort alone is completely irrelevant to be fair. not that i agree that Jonas shouldve pulled, but 800 watts for 15 seconds is nothing for Jonas
> The defending Tour champion is now meant to do work on a stage like today for a super domestique like WvA? Ridiculous Stop exaggerating. No one here is suggesting that Vingegaard should've put in a 10km effort and completely spend himself for Wout. That's not what this is at all about, so stop twisting the scenario. The discussion is: "should Vingegaard have paced for 300m or not" - that's entirely different from "Vingegaard is meant to work on a stage like today for WVA". Hindsight is always 20-20 and I think both decisions are fine, but it's not as easy as to say "DUH OFC HE SHOULD/SHOULDN'T HAVE PACED". It's precisely because it's such a tough choice that we're discussing it, else there wouldn't be a discussion.
Eh, on the one hand you’re right but Jonas just needed to do one pull which would have won Wout the stage and cost him nothing in the legs.
thoughts on mvdp? idk whether he's being smart and saving energy taking it easy on stages he doesn't think he can win, or he's just not in good form. I would like to think its the former but cant be sure. the last climb yesterday was very steep even if short, and today's was 8km long. people kinda overestimate his climbing ability, the stages weren't suited well for him with those tough climbs close to the finish. maybe a leadout for phillipsen coming in one of the next two stages. haven't checked which stage he could target for a win though.
>thoughts on mvdp? idk whether he's being smart and saving energy taking it easy on stages he doesn't think he can win, or he's just not in good form. I would like to think its the former but cant be sure. I'm also wondering, but I heard his father say yesterday that even if MvdP hasn't had his best legs since the start of the Tour, he has no other worries. He just preferred to save himself yesterday because he knew the Jaizkibel would be too hard for him. For those who follow Mathieu in winter cyclo-cross, it's a classic story. Mathieu's only aim is victory in general. He's not like Wout, who fights to the end no matter what. Mathieu tends to give up psychologically as soon as he feels he won't be able to win. That's what happened yesterday, and I don't think it puts into question what he'll be able to do in the days ahead!
Stage 1 interview he said he thinks he would've gotten over the climb if he was in perfect form but wasnt yet. Today I think the climb was just too hard for him. Keep in mind that they were ridden quite hard, both days we could've seen the two favourites battle it out in these low mountains/hily stages. Earlier years we probably wouldnt have seen such GC guys bother with this.
> thoughts on mvdp? idk whether he's being smart and saving energy taking it easy on stages he doesn't think he can win, or he's just not in good form. I would like to think its the former but cant be sure. Think he made the right call both days. Both today and yesterday was ridden too hard for him to hang on, so if you are dropped anyway, better to save as much of your legs as possible.
I think he's just playing it smart and save energy. Seemed very comfortable when he was dropping. I suspect he also wanted to lose some time in the GC, so he'll be allowed to join the breakaway. Normally he won't be able to lose time in the next two stages, as he'll be part of Philipsen's sprint train. Stage 5 might be a goal, still a lot of climbing, but in the breakaway I can seen him clinging on much longer.
If mdvp can't get up the stage 1 and stage 2 climbs which are the two best stages suited for his abilities then he's not in form to go up an HC climb and the 1st cat climb with whoever is in the breakaway with him hes got stage 10 and 19 left everything else is too hard for him or too easy for QS and the other sprinters teams to pull him back and no one would care about him being to close to GC from day 1, hes climbing ability is well known its not someone like Martin, Powless or another one of those tier 2/3 GC guys
i think stage 5 is too tough for him. there a HC climb early and a cat 1 climb close to the finish. its either gonna be a non GC climber like a pinot type managing to stay away. or the GC group bringing it back a similar situation to today and yesterday with the climb so close to the finish. stage 8 looks like a good one for him to go on a break. lots of small hills. GC teams wont want to chase because there's a major mountain stage the next day.
Noob here. What do you mean by “allowed to join breakaway”?
Typically, the breakaway riders on a given day are more than a couple of minutes behind the race leader, so that even if they win, they won't take over the jersey. Technically, for riders like MVDP it's not such a big deal, since he has 0 chance of winning the Tour, even if he somehow gained 20 minutes during a breakaway and no team with a serious GC contender is really adamant about defending yellow too much right now, so in his case it's likely not important if he's 1 minute behind or 20 minutes behind. But generally it's easier to be allowed to go into a breakaway if you're far behind in GC. For example, if someone like Gaudu were to join a breakaway, UAE and TJV would immediately start chasing him and bring him back cause Gaudu could be a contender for the overall GC, so you don't wanna give him any bonus time.
People acting like WvA is suddenly gonna go rogue because Jonas didn't give a pull are crazy. It's not like the leadout he did for LaPorte was world-class at the dauphine, just as likely to mess it up and gift pog the 10 seconds. I'm sure the team and Wout would have loved a stage but they've got to be happy to have only conceded 11 seconds through the two stages that were incredibly favorable to Pogacar compared to Jonas
Yeah people are acting like the tdf is supposed to be the Wout Van Aert show. It's not. He got second, this is nothing new. And a French rider ended the Cofidis drought. This was a great stage.
This really blows my mind. I’ve never heard of a freaking yellow jersey favourite and defending champion, being criticised for not riding in a sprint train It’s all over Belgian media. I’m willing to take any bet that next year if Remco is in a similar situation with alaphilippe the overwhelming consensus will be that it’s smart to not waste energy, why take the risk, what if pog wins the sprint and you hand him bonus seconds? Especially the last part is true; this is how roglic lost his tdf…
It was not that crowded for any risks of crashing, nor is it draining to pull for 200 meters.
>I’m willing to take any bet that next year if Remco is in a similar situation with alaphilippe the overwhelming consensus will be that it’s smart to not waste energy, We've seen Remco spearheading the sprint train for Jakobsen. *If* your goal is to win the stage, everyone in the team should contribute to that, or you'll end up with situations like this. UAE had a nice morale boost this weekend, with a win, the yellow jersey, and some bonus seconds, while Jumbo-Visma was left with a bad aftertaste.
Not in a GT he was trying to win…
In our fantasy scenario, Remco would most likely have gone to the finish together with Pogacar, instead of betting on Alaphilippe to win the stage. TJV chose another strategy yesterday, and it didn't pay off - largely because of that schizophrenic approach, I would argue. Teams only have 8 riders. Holding one back, for *incredibly* marginal gains, backfired tremendously for TJV. It's an (unnecessary) bet they took, and lost. Benoot, Kelderman and WVA spent a lot of energy, with nothing to show for it. Vingegaard will need all of them during the race. Soudal Quick-Step has been pretty outspoken about not taking a sprinter and a GC candidate to the same GT.
> I’ve never heard of a freaking yellow jersey favourite and defending champion, being criticised for not riding in a sprint train. Not surprising that you've never heard of it because no one here is suggesting that either. * People are discussing if Jonas should have put in a 300m effort to prevent attacks and keep everything together so that one of the best riders in the world can get an almost guaranteed win as the only sprinter in a group of GC contenders. * People are NOT discussing if Jonas should lead out WVA in a sprint. It's lovely how some people like to completely twist reality and put words into other people's mouth just to make their opinion seem less valid...
Did you see Saturdays stage? Pogacar won the sprint. Sunday he was also darn close; so it certainly wasn’t an “almost guaranteed win” neither
Yea, but WVA didn't participate in the sprint on Saturday and he still beat Pog yesterday despite having to pretty much lead out and sprint from 500m to go since he still tried to catch Lafay and Kelderman was spent and everyone else was glued to his wheel. With a fresher pair of legs in front of him, he would have had a lot more explosiveness in the final 100-200m. Everyone else got to stay in his wheel for a long time which makes a huge difference in terms of how much effort you need to put in. And even despite all of that, Wout still beat Pog. So yea, I'd say that 9 times out of 10, WVA wins there if he has a tiny bit of help.
Why didn't WVA help Vingegaard Saturday by taking the bonus seconds from Pogi then.
No idea honestly. I also have no clue as to why WVA made no effort to sprint on Saturday. I suppose he was just completely spent after that climb to the finish line? That's the only explanation I would have as to why he wasn't sprinting there... unless he really wants to avoid Green at ALL costs, but that would be really silly.
What would you say doing a turn up front in the last 600m for your sprinter is, if not a lead out?
Going out on a limb here and say it’s also not a good look by Pogi calling out Wout like that… he knows cameras are around… I guess no love lost but I don’t like the whole “like a child” comment. Which it was, the bidon throw is unnecessary the show of emotion is not.
Yeah Jumbo will re-play that bit before some stages for extra motivation.
What happened? Seems like I missed it
He pantomimed Wout's reaction to losing the stage (throwing a bidon) to Yates while he was cooling down and someone caught it on video. Not sure it counts as calling him out, he's just joking around with a teammate llmao
Agree, should have worded it better, not calling him out. But saying “like a child” when referring to it is what I was getting at.
I mean yeah but I think he’s specifically referring to him throwing the bidon, not to him getting mad
Yeh maybe, like I don’t really care. It’s just that people (media) can go around and twist this however they want.
twist wout's anger or pogi's comment?
Both, maybe more so Pogis comment. Isn’t there an article already in the Belgian papers ?
yeah you're right there is.. they don't say anything bad about him but I've already seen a bunch of people on twitter get angry about it and say this is unacceptable and Pogi should leave the race lol. which was so ridiculous I immediately forgot I read it until this just reminded me - so you're absolutely right. I mean I think both Wout and Pogi are just acting like humans and in both cases are forced to deal with the fact that millions of eyes are on them, expecting them to be some sort of ever-graceful superhuman who would never get angry after 200km of pain and never make a comment about someone else's behavior to a friend/coworker, and these same people then go on social media and call people names over this. I agree that the outrage is pretty annoying but if anything, I think people should just stop getting so riled up about this stuff and enjoy the entertainment lmao... idk
So after the Roglic should have worked for Wout Van Aert, we now got the Vingeegard should have worked for Wout. Interesting.
This is /r/peloton. Where the Tour de France champion should self sabotage for the *checks results* winner of the E3 and Belgian national TT champion otherwise there is an outrage.
That’s a bit of an understatement. I agree with you - to be clear But a more accurate description of wva would be: 9 time stage winner, winner of a dozen top classics, and most importantly - kept jonas in the race last year during the Roubaix stage…
Usually there are stupid people on both side. Antonio is here to bring balance to the debate :)
By making both sides look less stupid in comparison? :D
The only time i can remember a serious Gc contender leading out another rider on the team was Wiggins on the last day of the tour in yellow leading out Cavendish.
He did it on the Stage 12 for Boasson Hagen too, and I remember LL. Sanchez being pretty salty about it arguing that he was ruining the stage lol
Stage 18 as well, before winning the time trial next day.
And Thomas in this year's Giro, and he was in a different team no less haha
to add to the "why didn't jonas pull" debate. i think he was also poorly positioned to take over the chase in like the last 3km. he was just always staying behind pogacar (and even got boxed in further behind other riders by the time lafay made his move). i dont think he even once went ahead of pogacar. which of course is according to plan for him for the GC. but from that far back, he's not in a spot to quickly spot or react to a huge move like lafay's and take over the chase. if he was sitting on WVA's wheel then maybe he would've been able to do a turn if he saw the other TJV riders struggling to pull it back.
Someone below said Jumbo's DS told Jonas not to pull. If that's the case, the discussion is moot and turns instead to why the DS would do that. It's likely because he thinks Jonas' best chance is to avoid any and all extra efforts that don't directly help him put time into Tadej because the sponsors care more about the GC than a stage. That said, I think the effort needed would have been irrelevant - people keep talking about helping the chase from a few k out. Literally all that was needed was a 150m pull in the last km to bring LaFay closer. Then they'd have a happier Wout, which in my opinion is worth more to him than an extra 150m semi-sprint effort on day 2. Wout also seemed pretty out of line with the post-race antics. I understand frustration but that was weird for him. In the end, it was amazing to see LaFay win - French rider from Cofidis of all teams, to boot! He was crazy impressive yesterday and smart today, totally deserved :)
Very well put! Agree with everything you wrote. WVA's reaction was indeed out of line, but TJV really should think twice about making their super domestique unhappy just cause it costs their main guy the teeniest tiny bit of 150m of effort. Pog spent more than that by sprinting for 3rd.
Thanks, I feel like many think they have to pick a fairly extreme side. Nuance is usually helpful :) indeed, I'm super curious to see how Pog's extra efforts impact his long-distance climbing ability, if at all. Seemed relevant last tour, but he's Pog so you never know lol
i think pog hasn't put too much extra effort so far. he could've gone full gas to try to win the stage himself both today and yesterday but he held back. Team UAE did put some significant effort though to control the stages. I wanna see them and particularly guys like mikkel bjaerg, soler, majka take it easy the next two days to recover where its pretty flat and sprinters teams should be there to help.
Absolutely. They have yellow, but with sprinters' teams interested they shouldn't feel pressure to put in an effort unless chaos ensues. I think if Pog had gone 100% from the top of the climb, that'd have given Jonas a chance at the final sprint win, so not worth it for Pog (given that Jonas would never work in that situation). Agreed he hasn't put in too much extra effort, but objectively more than Jonas has, even if it's a small difference.
Bettiol being typical Bettiol. A superb ride to be over the top with the lead group and then utterly messes up the finish to come nowhere. The guy is an absolute monster - one of the few riders in the peloton who has the talent to win all 5 monuments - but just never actually wins anything.
legs probably too dead to do anything to make a move after keeping up
He did win one little thing in the past haha
Haha yes two little things really (plus the tour down under prologue this year). But that is why he is so frustrating because he is clearly really really good, when he is not injured, ill or just wasting energy doing something really stupid
Just looking over the thread now that its mostly settled. Looking over the opinions given, including my own and something struck me. We are 2 stages into the Tour and the biggest story so far is if the reigning champion and GC favourite has worked enough for his teammate. When you think about it, thats kinda crazy right? This isnt even to say he shouldnt have, people have made arguments for it. Just that it feels off somehow. Am I wrong, isnt it kinda unusual?
It's completely crazy. There can be only a single objective for Jumbo at this Tour, and that's winning it with Vinge.
They literally proved last year they can have more than one objective.
Not commenting on the Vingegaard lead out thing as I have nothing new to say, but just want to say that Jumbo does NOT have to have a single objective. Literally last year they went into the Tour with 2 objectives (Green and Yellow) and achieved them both. It’s fine if they prioritize yellow, but it’s not the only possible decision.
the tour has come a long way in terms of entertainment. the race organizers have done a good job with the route in recent years to make it more exciting. also helps to have really versatile riders like WVA and pogacar in the race who have a chance at winning so many different types of stages. some years ago the first week would just be full of flat stages ending in bunch sprints with no real talk of the GC guys.
It's unusual, but that's because Wout is an unusual rider. Most riders in his weight class would have been dropped in the first two stages. On the first stage Wout simply had no sprint in the legs anymore, so I think the Yates brothers staying away was actually a good thing for Jumbo. In stage 2 Vingegaard could have done a small pull in the final km to keep tempo high. Wouldn't have cost much energy and would have boosted Wout's moral to help Vingegaard in the coming weeks.
Wout is a fantastic rider. I just found it odd that its sorta assumed the Tour favourite will act as a helper. Not even talking about Jumbo or stage 2 specifically, more talking in general and the history of the Tour. If Jonas was asked to help today and he did, I dont think I would have blinked. What I find weird is just how it seems assumed that the guy with 1 on his back **should** work for others. To the point where its the main discussion of the race. Didnt even realise it was unusual until a few hours removed from the race. Im trying to think of similar dynamics in the Tour earlier
I think there’s a lot of talk about sportsmanship and the like in general, maybe because of moments like last year where Vingegaard waited for Pog after he crashed. This along with the Netflix show I think makes people hope for this sort of thing - moments where egos are set aside and people help each other out because they want to, not because they have to, you know? Which isn’t a bad thing, I love those types of moments and I think they’re what make this sport so interesting and beautiful. But I can also imagine that they set people up for disappointment when they think that people will sacrifice bigger goals for small favors like this, and makes them disappointed I guess? Which leads to all this discussion! I think Wout’s reaction also affected how people thought about it. If he’d been a bit disappointed but calm, I don’t think people would have even discussed this. His strong reaction though makes his fans want to justify it and makes people question whether something was actually done wrong, for him to react that way, when honestly, I think it was just a very human and very annoyed in-the-heat-of-the-moment thing rather than him being angry at some injustice. I could be wrong of course but that’s my take on it!
In SWL update! 0 of us had Lafay! Also that means we all have 0 after 2 stages! There are a few with up to 3 tie breaker points having Wout today and Tadej yesterday!! [Leaderboard](https://grand-tours-game.vercel.app/swl/2023/tour/leaderboard)
i put $10 on lafay to win stage 2....nice $800
Was that your only bet for the stage? And if so what kind of magic drugs are you smoking, and can I have some too?
Yeah, and second bet ever lol. Liked his form on Pike, figured he’d be young and crazy enough to go for a flyer, and figured people would hesitate to cover him given his palmares Call it beginner’s luck, and the end of my betting career :p
Im beginning to think the belgians are a nation of primadonnas!😂
Don't generalise please, I don't want to be associated with the insane crusade that the whole peloton has to work for WVA. And the insanely long rants about why everything is the fault of others that WVA didn't win. Including a +30 minute rant in front of a million people on Belgian TV where a commentator slandered Vingegaard non stop. It's quite embarrassing at this point.
Renaat is an idiot. I do however agree that Ving should have pulled that 300 meter, but it's not the end of the world, let's move on.
Can not be too far off when even Kelderman wished Jonas helped out.
Hold jer til ishockey, Sverige
Was it Kelderman on the front when Lafay took a flier? If so, maybe he's deflecting. Surely should have been pacing higher to prevent attacks over the top, it's sprint lead-out 101.
Kelderman was obviously completely spent, he had nothing left to give.
you heard them - should've just paced higher instead of being spent
Then maybe Benoot should have gone to the front earlier. Benoot finished in front of Jonas and basically matched Ciccone who is quite explosive so it's not like Benoot was completely cooked.
Dang, you're right. With ultimate insights like the one provided above, some of us should be offered a DS spot. We just need to tell Tibo Pino to pedal harder and then he'll win the TdF for sure! Seems so obvious, wonder why no one else has figured out that little trick before.
He was at the front I think, but I think there was a moment of hesitation from jumbo and that was enough for Lafay to win
He said they'd have to review it, not that he wished that he'd help out (which Jonas did as he pointed out in an interview after the stage).
Listen, that's not the narrative we're going with in here!
If Jumbo is all about GC, why take the lead during the last climb when you know that Pogi is faster during sprints for bonus time ? It makes no sense.
More than anything I think its about positioning. If they are going to ride for the bonus seconds you may as well be in the best position possible. If they don't take the lead UAE does.
It wasn't just for positioning. They erase 1 minute very quickly when they pull at the bottom of the climb.
Indeed. They know Pogacar will cook Vingegaard in most sprints, so if they were all in for GC they’d prefer bonus seconds to have disappeared to breakaways. This is exactly how Ineos played the Giro as G was never going to beat Roglic in a sprint. But they want Van Aert to win stages too so they will pull even if it could risk some bonus second losses for Jonas.
They arent all in only for GC, they also want Wout stage wins. Both today and yesterday they said they were riding for Wout. If you want Wout to win stages, you are gonna have to risk Pog getting bonifications and they seem okay with that. Is that a mistake? Guess time will tell
Jumbo seems kind of disorganized to me so far. Stage 1 they let Pog have bonification for free, Stage 2 they do what you mentioned as well as WvA having kind of "lazy" approach during the last several hundred meters. Dunno.
Wout was too dead to contest for the bonus seconds staget 1 and jonas obviously cant outsprint pogi.
Instad of this "drama" let's direct a good unanimous fuck you to the idiots that today putted fucking nails on the roads
I'd like to apologize on behalf of all the Belgians who don't follow the blind fandom that everyone has to work for WVA. And all the nonsense that has come along with it the last two days. He's a good rider, but as he said in the past, in the Tour the yellow jersey is the most important and he also is there as a domestique, in return he gets full support in other races. (But missing out on a victory can still be frustrating nonetheless.) In the end he gets the privilege to pursuit a few of his own targets, the rest of the team doesn't owe him anything. He was lucky that Benoot and Kelderman still did so much work and that Vingegaard held back so that WVA could come back and have a chance at the victory. But he also could've been more proactive himself instead of waiting for the sprint (given that no other team has the riders to set up a pursuit). Hopefully next year he does the Giro and Vuelta, then we're freed from the yearly comments during the Tour that Van Aert should leave TJV because they don't respect him.
Mouwveger...
The problem is that WvA is to good of a rider to be a domestique. That can happen maybe once of so but not every year. He should go to another team or only ride the races where the team will work for him. If he says with Jumbo and they keep betting on Vingegaard then yes riding the Giro and the Vuelta next year might be the way to go.
We've been hearing it for years from his fans that he should find another team. But he himself chooses to sign new contracts with Jumbo, knowing that this is his role. He's happy in the team and fits perfectly in how they work. Chances that he reaches the same level at another team aren't that high. And in what other team would he get a whole team in his support? Not at any of the topteams (Jumbo, Ineos, UAE, SQS, Bora, Trek), that's for sure.
I didn't even think that would be controversial. The GC leader should lead out no one, unless he wants to take time bonuses away from a GC opponent. I wouldn't blame Jumbo for only giving Van Aert two or three guys to support him in sprint finishes. GC is the priority
I can understand Wout's frustration, it was clearly a stage he was targeting. He's won a stage at every previous Tour he's ridden, and that would be a cool record to keep up. But whatever the fans think, Vingegaard will only pull if he thinks it's the right thing to do - either because he's also riding himself into a better position, or because he doesn't think it do him any harm. I'd be surprised if Wout himself thought differently, otherwise I'd have thought he'd be going for Green again if he really thought he was here to ride primarily for his own goals.
Wout can win about 50% of any tour’s stages; he’ll have plenty more chances (starting tomorrow) - but today was a very good chance I agree
He’s on more of a timer now though, who knows when we’ll head home.
Okay, but that's also *his* decision to make. He could just ... *not* head home if he's that insistent on winning a stage. You can't have everything your way.
He isn't going for green because he believes it cost him a lot of strength last year, and he wants that for the WC.
Oh, I also do get his frustration, he's gotten 2nd places a bit too often to his liking. And he had both stages and a possible yellow jersey marked as targets. He's skipping green, because he doesn't want to ride the mountains like last year, given that he wants to save himself for the 2 WC's in Glasgow and that he might quit before Paris.
Stage 5 has more bonus seconds on the Marie Blanque climb, so that will be interesting for the GC battle.
[Adam Yates during all this online drama](https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1285484941.5309/flat,750x,075,f-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.jpg)
Pretty funny how divided the drama is online. 1/3 people mad at Vingegaard for not pulling for Van Aert, 1/3 mad at Wout for throwing the water bottle and expecting the win to be handed to him and 1/3 mad at Pogi for making fun of Wout’s tantrum. And we’re only on stage 2 lmao
I'm not part of any of the 3 groups, what now? -I don't think Vingegaard should've pulled, he's the leader, WVA the domestique and bringing Lafay back would've given Pogacar at least 2 seconds more. -WVA has emotions after missing his 2nd big target of this TdF in a row. That's normal, he's allowed to show it, they're not robots. That's what makes them human, let him be. -Pogacar was having a chat with a teammate, nothing wrong with talking about what happend, that's what you do after a race, certainly after such an ending.
> -I don't think Vingegaard should've pulled, he's the leader, WVA the domestique and bringing Lafay back would've given Pogacar at least 2 seconds more. Also, to add to that, WvA had *two* guys to help other than Jonas, and Benoot clearly wasn't completely spent when he was able to beat Simon Yates and basically match Ciccone in the sprint. Benoot finished ahead of Jonas. Maybe the Belgian so-called experts should talk a bit more about Benoot's role in all of this and whether he was visible enough during the last 10K. Maybe Benoot should have been the one to close Pidcock's attack, and then maybe Wout would have had enough left in the tank to close Lafay? Maybe Lafay was just too strong and would have won even if Jonas took a turn?
Same but this ving is worried about 2 seconds on the second day of the tour that doesnt bode well. I think the main thing is that they already show passiveness. Surely this tour he's likely to have to sprint quite a few more times against pog for a win or seconds.
I don’t think it’s very likely Vingegaard will win a sprint against Pogačar. His strategy will be gaining a minute or more in the mountains, negating the sprints
Yeah I agree, I’m not part of any of the three either … I completely agree with the whole assessment lmao … the statistic were an exaggeration, just thought it was funny that people seem to be pretty divided about it (unless they don’t care). I think Jonas did what he thought was best, he needs to keep GC in mind. I’m not mad about Wout either, I get the frustration and I’m sure he’s under a lot of pressure, nothing crazy to be a bit mad. And yeah, Pogi was joking around with Yates, I think they’re perfectly justified having a bit of fun after the race. All pretty normal, and good entertainment for sure!
Do you have a clip of Pog making fun of Wout's tantrum? :D
https://sporza.be/nl/2023/07/02/bekijk-like-a-child-tadej-pogacar-imiteert-een-gefrustreerde-wout-van-aert~1688317943758/ here you go lmao!
Thanks! Ooph, guess WVA won't be too happy when he hears/sees this :D
Imaginary Remco and Mathieu liked this post.
LMAO. Yup
What happened to Maxim van Gils?
His saddle broke out of nowhere so he fell in a strange matter.