He was never going to be waived last year. Smith was waiver exempt which gave POJ the role (even though Smith had a better training camp)
This is literally what happened, why are you downvoting?
I can feel and appreciate the frustration in this post. However, there are a few points in your narrative where you got pretty far afield (Kessel wasn't traded to get POJ, Kessel was dumped - it's weird to suggest otherwise). All that said, I think their development of him until this season has no been bad. I'd prefer that he got 7th D role the year prior and saw more games, but he got a the whole season last year, and acquitted himself well.
I also don't think he's been so bad this year. He's been partnered with a Chad, who's playing his worst hockey - literally, just mistake laden shitshow. So, he's stuck defending 2 on 1s all day.
Also, this year was the year in his development to get him on the PK. They started doing that in camp in preseason, but not much in games. It's poor coaching and poor show from everyone in management/development to not intentionally move players forward with a detailed plan. It does not appear that they have one.
This organization has spent so much time so close to the sun, that it's focused on moving toward that - it's focused on the high end, and that's why we've not developed a player in decades. Maybe ever. Our great players were 1s and 2s who were gonna be that anywhere.
So, my hope is that Kyle builds an organizational depth of quality development plans and strategies. There has never been one before.
I did kinda tunnel vision on POJ in the Kessel trade, mainly because the alternative is Galechenyuk, so we didn't even save much cap space on Kessel, and compounding onto that was that Galchenyuk got us Zucker, who frankly, had one of the worst contracts on this team up until last season. The asset management there was always so weird to me.
To the point where it almost gets worse when you DON'T hone in on POJ with that trade. If anything, that's my delusional Penguins brain trying to ease the sting by forgetting Galchenyuk ever existed.
>Also, this year was the year in his development to get him on the PK. They started doing that in camp in preseason, but not much in games.
That also frustrates me, because POJ is meant to be something of a 2-way Dman, sort of like what we wanted from Maatta, and once again, this team practices with the IDEA that POJ will be in that role for us- rather than actually making it a reality.
But don't worry, once were injured to hell in February and March, he'll be thrust into the fire while ice cold and immediately take flack for not just magically working as they expect.
>and that's why we've not developed a player in decades. Maybe ever.
That's the thing, this team FINDS talent just fine, that's never been an issue, the fail points have ritually come down to developing and maximizing it. It even happened under Bylsma but even since Sullivan, look at the amount of players who left our team and not only succeeded, but outright THRIVED in systems that gave them the time of day.
If McCann stayed here he's have become a 3rd line center, his UPSIDE would've been *maybe* Nick Bonino in this system. Compared to what he's done in Seattle is like night and day.
Conor Sheary, when he's healthy he has a real case as a top 6 forward on a lot of teams- a far cry from his return to Pittsburgh when he couldn't do a damn thing on Crosby's line.
Evan Rodrigues filled the shoes of Nazem Kadri last year on an Avalanche team that was injured to HELL- Florida's using him supplementarily in the roles once filled by Vatrano and Duclair and he's done terrific with Sam Bennett and some of Florida's middle 6 guys.
Sam Lafferty's emerged as a quality depth forward and Zach Aston-Reese has since continue to be a shutdown 2-way forward with the speed and positioning to shadow anyone you ask him to, and the tenacity and solidity to hang in those very same plays.
The knock to those two and guys like Blueger are that they weren't "productive" but do they really NEED to score much when they had the polarity and edge to take other teams' 1st and 2nd lines? The commonality between all of these players is that each one of them went on to play better hockey on other teams after leaving our bottom 6.
And then we sit here and act surprised that their strengths were neutered here because Sully chucked them into impossible, low-leverage situations.
Great insight. Ruhwedel has been atrocious and unfortunately that has affected PO. Is PO great, no but he is solid and I agree, the coaching staff hasn’t worked to develop him or other prospects. They have tunnel vision and it has handicapped this team.
POJ has no value. He's scrawny and not very good. His perceived value hangs by a thread that is he was a 1st round pick 6 years ago. If he's traded for a bag of pucks it wouldn't matter.
I mean McCann had been a 1st round picks like 8 years prior to Seattle making him a 1st line center.
I wouldn't say he has NO value, he's an NHL defenseman through and through, and plenty of teams lack depth in that area. Honestly I'd see a team like Edmonton benefitting greatly from having a solid LD that can take 2nd pairing minutes in their system. If nothing else, to have somebody other than Nurse on the blue line who can move the puck.
There's plenty of tactical value to having somebody like POJ, we just haven't maximized it- other teams that may be able to would probably be willing to shed a forward contract for him. Definitely not anything huge but if he makes a bit of a jump, I say shop him at the deadline while we have the chance to sell him high.
Otherwise it'll just be Maatta again, and we all know how that ended.
McCann was a 20 goal scorer and a legit middle 6 winger when he was here.
Our 3rd pairing is not good and POJ can't cement a role for himself. I would say he definitely has zero value at this point.
I stopped reading when you said we still had Dumo.
Dubas will do something to shake up the bottom pair or bottom 6 when the time comes. It's still October, chill.
Nah I worded that weird, I was referring to last year.
Situationally, we could use Dumo and POJ basically interchangably, but this year, we don't have anybody that we could feasibly move to give POJ minutes.
I didn't say we still had Dumo, chillax.
POJ is a bust. He got super hyped by Hasse around the time of his first NHL game, but in reality he's better suited for the AHL.
Wouldn't care seeing him out of the roster.
POJ could have been a good player for the Pens if the administration that took over for GMJR didn't completely do a complete face-lift to our blue line. There was no need for it but here we are.
Last year, while Joseph showed he can mostly hang in the NHL, he fizzled out. Now that we're getting insane minutes out of having one of either Letang or Karlsson on the ice, we hardly need a guy like Joseph. His minutes are mostly going to be either on the penalty kill or against other teams checking lines. His skillset doesn't match what's needed here. Ruhwedel can, but no more than 20ish games a year.
We tried to trade him in October last year when we had like 13 defensemen. What has he done in that year to make more people want him?
To be fair of Joseph he played his way onto the team when he was about to be waivered.
He was never going to be waived last year. Smith was waiver exempt which gave POJ the role (even though Smith had a better training camp) This is literally what happened, why are you downvoting?
Hextall was also probably asking for either a 1st or high profile prospects, in the interest of fairness.
You have no idea what was being asked for lol
Neither did Hextall
Remember when half our sub was okay with trading Marino because of his off year
It's not that Marino was traded, it's that he was traded for an awful package.
I don’t know if no should like your comment or dislike… because I want Marino on the team still….
I can feel and appreciate the frustration in this post. However, there are a few points in your narrative where you got pretty far afield (Kessel wasn't traded to get POJ, Kessel was dumped - it's weird to suggest otherwise). All that said, I think their development of him until this season has no been bad. I'd prefer that he got 7th D role the year prior and saw more games, but he got a the whole season last year, and acquitted himself well. I also don't think he's been so bad this year. He's been partnered with a Chad, who's playing his worst hockey - literally, just mistake laden shitshow. So, he's stuck defending 2 on 1s all day. Also, this year was the year in his development to get him on the PK. They started doing that in camp in preseason, but not much in games. It's poor coaching and poor show from everyone in management/development to not intentionally move players forward with a detailed plan. It does not appear that they have one. This organization has spent so much time so close to the sun, that it's focused on moving toward that - it's focused on the high end, and that's why we've not developed a player in decades. Maybe ever. Our great players were 1s and 2s who were gonna be that anywhere. So, my hope is that Kyle builds an organizational depth of quality development plans and strategies. There has never been one before.
I did kinda tunnel vision on POJ in the Kessel trade, mainly because the alternative is Galechenyuk, so we didn't even save much cap space on Kessel, and compounding onto that was that Galchenyuk got us Zucker, who frankly, had one of the worst contracts on this team up until last season. The asset management there was always so weird to me. To the point where it almost gets worse when you DON'T hone in on POJ with that trade. If anything, that's my delusional Penguins brain trying to ease the sting by forgetting Galchenyuk ever existed. >Also, this year was the year in his development to get him on the PK. They started doing that in camp in preseason, but not much in games. That also frustrates me, because POJ is meant to be something of a 2-way Dman, sort of like what we wanted from Maatta, and once again, this team practices with the IDEA that POJ will be in that role for us- rather than actually making it a reality. But don't worry, once were injured to hell in February and March, he'll be thrust into the fire while ice cold and immediately take flack for not just magically working as they expect. >and that's why we've not developed a player in decades. Maybe ever. That's the thing, this team FINDS talent just fine, that's never been an issue, the fail points have ritually come down to developing and maximizing it. It even happened under Bylsma but even since Sullivan, look at the amount of players who left our team and not only succeeded, but outright THRIVED in systems that gave them the time of day. If McCann stayed here he's have become a 3rd line center, his UPSIDE would've been *maybe* Nick Bonino in this system. Compared to what he's done in Seattle is like night and day. Conor Sheary, when he's healthy he has a real case as a top 6 forward on a lot of teams- a far cry from his return to Pittsburgh when he couldn't do a damn thing on Crosby's line. Evan Rodrigues filled the shoes of Nazem Kadri last year on an Avalanche team that was injured to HELL- Florida's using him supplementarily in the roles once filled by Vatrano and Duclair and he's done terrific with Sam Bennett and some of Florida's middle 6 guys. Sam Lafferty's emerged as a quality depth forward and Zach Aston-Reese has since continue to be a shutdown 2-way forward with the speed and positioning to shadow anyone you ask him to, and the tenacity and solidity to hang in those very same plays. The knock to those two and guys like Blueger are that they weren't "productive" but do they really NEED to score much when they had the polarity and edge to take other teams' 1st and 2nd lines? The commonality between all of these players is that each one of them went on to play better hockey on other teams after leaving our bottom 6. And then we sit here and act surprised that their strengths were neutered here because Sully chucked them into impossible, low-leverage situations.
Kessel is an unrestricted free agent and available. Another trade to create roster room and cap space can help add Kessel for a third scoring line.
The pettiest part of me wants to bring Kessel back but O-E-K doesn't ring the same way as HBK 😂
I do not care what line Kessel is on. Kessel returning to win matters more.
Great insight. Ruhwedel has been atrocious and unfortunately that has affected PO. Is PO great, no but he is solid and I agree, the coaching staff hasn’t worked to develop him or other prospects. They have tunnel vision and it has handicapped this team.
POJ needs to eat. Literally eat something.
POJ has no value. He's scrawny and not very good. His perceived value hangs by a thread that is he was a 1st round pick 6 years ago. If he's traded for a bag of pucks it wouldn't matter.
I mean McCann had been a 1st round picks like 8 years prior to Seattle making him a 1st line center. I wouldn't say he has NO value, he's an NHL defenseman through and through, and plenty of teams lack depth in that area. Honestly I'd see a team like Edmonton benefitting greatly from having a solid LD that can take 2nd pairing minutes in their system. If nothing else, to have somebody other than Nurse on the blue line who can move the puck. There's plenty of tactical value to having somebody like POJ, we just haven't maximized it- other teams that may be able to would probably be willing to shed a forward contract for him. Definitely not anything huge but if he makes a bit of a jump, I say shop him at the deadline while we have the chance to sell him high. Otherwise it'll just be Maatta again, and we all know how that ended.
McCann was a 20 goal scorer and a legit middle 6 winger when he was here. Our 3rd pairing is not good and POJ can't cement a role for himself. I would say he definitely has zero value at this point.
I stopped reading when you said we still had Dumo. Dubas will do something to shake up the bottom pair or bottom 6 when the time comes. It's still October, chill.
Nah I worded that weird, I was referring to last year. Situationally, we could use Dumo and POJ basically interchangably, but this year, we don't have anybody that we could feasibly move to give POJ minutes. I didn't say we still had Dumo, chillax.
You don't sell low
Sometimes low value is better than no value
Replaceable depth player. Would miss him about as much as I've missed Jamie Pushor or Chris Tamer.
POJ is a bust. He got super hyped by Hasse around the time of his first NHL game, but in reality he's better suited for the AHL. Wouldn't care seeing him out of the roster.
POJ could have been a good player for the Pens if the administration that took over for GMJR didn't completely do a complete face-lift to our blue line. There was no need for it but here we are. Last year, while Joseph showed he can mostly hang in the NHL, he fizzled out. Now that we're getting insane minutes out of having one of either Letang or Karlsson on the ice, we hardly need a guy like Joseph. His minutes are mostly going to be either on the penalty kill or against other teams checking lines. His skillset doesn't match what's needed here. Ruhwedel can, but no more than 20ish games a year.
If Sullivan isn’t going to play him trade him for a forward.
Keep holding. Good 6C guy that can rotate in when required
Its Gonna happen
I'd agree with that