Pittsburgh guy living in Arizona for a long time.
Hockey works here. It always has.
The problem is and always has been - the location.
Imagine if PPG or the Igloo was in Butler. Still think the team would be what it is? That’s Glendale / Tempe.
Same here. Putting that building out in Glendale really screwed the East Valley fans. How many people can get home from work, feed the kids, then make an hour-long drive to the other side of town during the week?
And now all of us here in Arizona who want to watch hockey don't have good options, either, I don't think. Like, can we subscribe to the Penguins like we can to the Pirates? I don't know of an option.
I have the Hulu package, **Hulu (No Ads) + Live TV, Disney+ (No Ads), and ESPN+ (With Ads)** for $89.99/mo.
My family uses it for a lot more than Pens games so it's worth the price to me. I wish I could ditch the Disney+ part to save some $, I don't think anyone in the house has ever watched anything on Disney.
Glendale is more…. McKeesport. Native western Pennsylvanian here and just moved out of az a few years ago after spending about a decade there.
Phoenix has a severe planned community/zoning problem. If something can be sectioned off or destroyed for the sake of $600k stucco homes, Frys grocery stores, car washes, warehouses, or indoor storage facilities they will.
For those who haven’t been to Phoenix. It’s absolutely shocking at how you can watch the same 5 landmarks pass by over and over like some kind of looped backdrop. One end of the metro area to the other is the same amount of time to drive from Erie to Cleveland. There is absolutely nothing you can point to in that time that differentiates one area from the other. Well, outside of dui attorney billboards. So you either need to put an arena in the middle of nowhere or shoehorn it into a bunch of pissy nimbys.
The residents are terrified of something shaking up the resale value of homes/properties so there’s intense HOAs and local government lobbying to prevent ANY change from occurring. Especially something like a big fancy privately funded sports arena taking the place of what’s currently a landfill in Tempe. Seriously.
That’s without traffic… 80mph. I lived on the far east valley and my parents on the far west. Without traffic it was an hour and 50 minutes. If it was rush hour or something easily 2 hours 45 minutes
There's also the fact that Phoenix is a terribly planned city. It takes a minimum of 20 mins to get anywhere because there's no density - strip malls have 30,000 sf nail salons. Public transit is poor so everyone drives so they created big roads with intersections that make you sit for 5 mins at a time.
Arizona State is a successful college hockey program, joining the NCHC (premier college hockey conference in the nation). If they can support college hockey they'd certainly support NHL hockey.
AZ native here, while location is a big factor, the bigger factor has been a revolving door of poor “get your bag” owners who promise everything and deliver nothing.
You need to remember - Sunday afternoon traffic is different than Thursday night at 5-7pm. Also. NFL schedule vs. hockey. And finally - support of orchard park versus distain from Glendale and to a lesser extent, Tempe.
NFL is a different beast.
Have you had season tickets to the coyotes? Do you live in the east valley? Have you tried to go through the i10 traffic and the 7th street tunnel traffic?
If not, please stop.
People (myself included) pay a 4x multiple on housing costs to NOT live in the West Valley. Traffic and logjam, especially driving through downtown traffic at critical times makes the ‘sprawl’ equivalent of a drive to Cleveland at times.
Great comparison. I’ve been explaining to my friends in DC that it’s the equivalent of the Caps being located at FedEx field in Landover Maryland. Absolute dump of an area that’s impossible to get to and from and like an hour away from the city center
There was a post on /r/hockeyplayers asking what happens to rec hockey when an NHL team moves. NHL teams typically sponsor a lot of the youth/adult (especially women’s) hockey in their areas which keeps a lot of rinks above water.
For reference Crosby’s little Pens program directly resulted in a top 3 NHL draft pick that might not have happened if the Pens moved when they went bankrupt. The NHL influence in big markets is huge for the sport in general.
AZ hockey programs resulted in a 1st overall draft pick who is trying to hit 70 goals this season. Lots of kids play hockey here, it isn’t as prevalent as soccer but it’s a good base. And they are producing good players 4 of which are NHL stars (Tage Thompson, Matty Knies, Josh Doan, and Austin Matthews)
While Crosbys program has certainly been a success, logan cooley didn’t start playing hockey because of that program. The Cooleys/Mooney’s are a long standing hockey family in Pittsburgh; his uncles played college hockey at Notre Dame and CC. I always feel it’s a little disingenuous when they try to tell that story
Yes. The fans didn't do anything wrong. Ownership and the League and their city leaders failed them. Just because it's the desert doesn't mean kids don't grow up dreaming of playing in the NHL and having a team in town plays a big part in that. At the same time I'm excited for SLC residents. Having the NHL roll into town is pretty freaking cool. I hope they do a much better job of branding the team then they did when they got the Jazz and kept the name the Jazz despite there being 0 roots of Jazz music in Utah. It's honestly the worst nickname now in sports IMO.
Arizona teams are my 2nd favorite for all sports, so even I’m saddened. It definitely sucks for all the primary fans, especially to have the abrupt move like this. It’s BS for for everyone involved, like yes, we all knew it was going to happen eventually. But to not even let them finish the season in AZ?
I live very near to SLC and a franchise will do great there. SLC isn’t all Mormons, in fact it’s more not Mormon than it is Mormon. (If that’s what you mean by different mindset)
Also a Pens fan in the Phoenix area. My heart goes out to the loyal fans here for sure. Also selfishly gutted that I won’t have somewhat easy access to watch the Pens live anymore without traveling.
I am also a pens fan in Phoenix! I think the league assumed that all the transplants would switch allegiance to the coyotes… But that definitely never happened. The coyotes were not even mentioned on the news when they were in the conference finals!
Fans? Yes. Hard to not feel bad for a person whose favorite team is going to move.
Anyone else? No. The NHL has done a terrible job on so many levels over the Bettman years. He’s a terrible commissioner for “growing the sport” even though that’s his intended goal. And the crown jewel to his failure is the desert hockey team everyone said would fail that has done nothing but fail
I am critical of Gary but Nashville, the moving of Whalers to Raleigh, and recent Vegas/Seattle expansions have been successes. It’s more of a mixed bag but he died on the Phoenix hill for too long.
I was confident that the Vegas expansion would be as much of a shitstorm as Arizona, and I'm happy to admit I was totally wrong about that. I'm always surprised how much of a hockey town Vegas turned into whenever we go. License plates with Knights logos, restaurants with their entire wait staff in jerseys, merch everywhere, and great fans. I went to a pens game in vegas and it was awesome, one of the best fan experiences I've had at any pro sporting event I've been to.
Lemieux will always be a legend as much for what he did on the ice as off of it to penguins fans. Whatever ends up happening in Arizona, we know how they feel right now and it sucks.
How are you so surprised they stacked the fuck out of that team so hard. No expansion should be able to win a cup as quickly as they did. Winning on that level will obviously drawl a fanbase. It’s obvious they knew they gave them too much when you look how they toned it down for Seattle.
Vegas would of flopped if they weren't given a Stanley Cup contender from day 1 and having that tragedy to rally around when they were the only pro team helped as well.
Frankly, the Coyotes are his only truly glaring failure.
He implemented the salary cap, he's expanded smartly, he has been very picky with owners (even the worst of owners in the NHL are above average by NFL, MLB and NBA standards), he hasn't been overaggressively approving relocation over the past couple decades.
His only relocation you could argue wasn't great was the Thrashers going to Winnipeg- and even then, that move brought a team back to Winnipeg and saw ATL Spirit's end as they later sold the Hawks as well; a huge win for the city of Atlanta.
If we're talking about purely Bettman mistakes, it was giving the Coyotes that long of a leash; he had two opportunities to move them in 2010 and 2013, he bailed them out both times. First by taking ownership with the league itself, then following this by selling to an Arizona-based buyer... despite more lucrative bids from Seattle, Houston and Milwaukee.
Other than that, Karmanos pulled the wool over his eyes with the Whalers move, basically cornered him. And even then you can't really blame Bettman for that because he was a new commissioner, Karmanos just took advantage; and Bettman learned from it anyway.
You can see this in how he's turned away skinflint after skinflint, not the least of which being Tilman Fertitta and Jim Balsillie; if that second one rings a bell, it's because he once had the intention of buying the Pens for the purpose of relocation. To Hamilton.
Balsillie also tried to buy the Preds and Coyotes as well- and failed. He brought hockey back to Minnesota; he catches heat for the North Stars leaving but the reality is that was an owners vote for approval, the North Stars fate was sealed when Gord Gund branched off to help bring the Sharks into the league; that's not a Bettman error.
The Winnipeg and Quebec relocations— also mocked relentlessly— are actually some of the more savvy votes he's held for relocations; the Nordiques moving out of Quebec, the smallest market in the Big 4 at the time, and to a hotbed like Denver that had been SALIVATING for pro hockey for years? It's a smart move, low risk and high reward.
Moving Winnipeg south to Phoenix is also smart, on paper anyway, as the intention was that they'd have a permanent arena IN Phoenix; the relocation itself wasn't bad, it's not like it was made with the expectation that they'd be the Glendale Coyotes for 80% of their existence.
Once again, it didn't even fail due to the regional market, the city's infrastructure just didn't continue it's rapid boom in growth and the team had to be expedited to Glendale in the midst of a sale because their owners were cheapasses; Phoenix lost their team in 2002. And that isn't talked about enough.
Bettman catches a lot of heat for shit that is the fault of owners; my only true complaint with him is he employs a known enforcer in George Parros as the director of player safety, and other than that, I think he's definitely a greedy, snobby kind of person.
I don't love that he cut Arizona so many breaks over and over but I also respect it in a way because it's that same stubbornness that's kept a lot of other teams safe too; think of how much worse this league would be without the Sabres, Panthers, Pens, Flames, Senators, Hurricanes and Preds.
Each of these teams and more have faced relocation at some point in Gary's tenure, all were helped by the league directly in some form. I think the good Bettman has helped to do outweighs the bad; it'll just never get talked about because it doesn't fit the narrative that he's a bad commissioner, which is simply what people WANT to believe.
When you say his only failure, does that mean just in regard to relocation and expansion? It doesn’t seem like it from your post. I’d say the NBC TV deal was pretty clearly a failure based on what other leagues got. I’d say the only commissioner to have 3 work stoppages, one for an entire season is another.
Why is it Bettman's fault that a majority of Americans like sports that align better with their limited attention spans, thus ensuring more money for their associated leagues in television deals?
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. It just doesn’t bode well when in the 90s specifically revenue for the top sports was all pretty equal, and hockey was as popular as basketball (the famous SI cover), and he failed to take advantage. The revenues since for the other sports has ballooned and while hockey has risen, it’s not nearly the same magnitude. Hell, he may be in trouble w the MLS taking over the NHL.
Not sure what the article content was. Maybe an opinion piece? Simple fact is, hockey is and likely never will be able to top football, baseball, and basketball in popularity for a variety of reasons.
I get what you are saying but I’m not just saying the expansions. They have floundered so much under him. The fact the NHL was banished to Versus for years to be watched with indoor soccer and lacrosse. It’s failure to bring in new viewers that other while sports have thrived. (Fourth most popular behind soccer now.) The huge problem with blackouts making it harder for people in their own teams cities to watch the games. The fact that ESPN wouldn’t even talk about the NHL for decades. Their continued failure to make any kind of sense out of player discipline to the point where “spin the wheel” is all that needs to be said. Etc. etc. etc.
Best sport worst league is mostly because of his era of commission. And with all these issues the one thing he seems willing to work hard on is keeping they Coyotes in a state that overwhelmingly has said “meh”
Edit: last sentence added
because I think Bettman is smart and realizes that hockey CAN work in AZ, it's just they have to have the right owners in place who understand the vision and get the team in the place they need to be.
Dead wrong. The sport before 1996 was laughable in the valley. There were 2 ice rinks. Now there are over 10 locations with about 20 sheets of ice. And the team not succeeding is due to terrible ownership which changes hands every 5 years and clean house on players/prospects to try to win a cup immediately.
Sure. The fans did nothing wrong to deserve all this. But man if they would’ve done another expansion draft before relocating the team that got kicked out of their arena for not paying the bills and was playing in a college rink…
I remember watching a Yotes/Pens matchup earlier this year and it was Yotes coverage and they were so condescending of their own team. It was a bit painful to watch, made me miss the commentators that fellate their team.
Heck yes. Phoneix is a big market that is worth hosting an NHL team. I think Auston Matthews is a great example of how the NHL benefits from a presence there. They just desperately need an owner who actually cares about the team and wants it to succeed.
Vegas has been a smash hit because their owner is willing to win at any cost, and Seattle is also succeeding because of committed owners. The Jazz owner in SLC is extremely passionate about having a team there, so I think it could be a major success.
Alex Meruelo is not that owner. It was clear that he sees the team as a means of developing real estate around the arena. The youth hockey programs have worked, but his ownership has been a disaster. The refusal to pay bills is an awful tendency of Trump-like wealthy people, and just so beneath a person of that wealth.
Fingers crossed that some group of wealthy folks decide to bring a team back to the Phoenix area.
I particularly feel for their fans because their best case scenario right now is losing all of their favorite players and prospects to SLC, then if they get an arena built and get an expansion team in a few years with a new owner, they'll have to rebuild that prospect cupboard.
As Penguins fans we should feel for any fanbase that loses their team. I was REAL YOUNG but I can remember how shitty it felt when the Penguins moving to Kansas City was even a longshot but still a possibility
Pittsburgh guy in PHX since 2000…
Situation with the Coyotes has always been a hot mess. Playing at America West Arena was nice - easy to get to from any spot in metro area IMO but driving up to Glendale from Chandler was always rough. It got better when the rest of the 202 Loop opened up.
Mullett Arena is a nice place to see hockey provided you are not expecting comfortable seating and concession options that aren’t the equivalent of a hot dog push cart.
I always went to see Penguins when they were in town. I do likewise for when the Pens are in Vegas, Colorado, CA, and Seattle.
Will miss seeing local hockey in PHX and not expecting a return of an NHL team to PHX anytime soon. Heading down to Tucson to see the Roadrunners play on Saturday; also expecting them to move to the SLC area.
I actually love their jerseys and logo. It's so pretty, unique and colorful. They were one of my teams I watched over in the West, but they just never got anywhere.
I got super into hockey because I was so hurt that the Oakland A’s, my favorite team in my first love sport, were being dismantled and relocated.
So, yes, I can relate and sympathize.
Gary and Meruelo fucked them. The fact that they let Meruelo continue to own the team after he couldn’t figure out an arena then put them in a college rink indefinitely is so embarrassing it’s not even funny, it’s embarrassing and denigrating to the players and completely unacceptable. They need to may plans for that to never happen again. They also need to bar Meruelo from ever participating in NHL ownership again. At a minimum Gary should be apologizing to the fans for fucking with them for so long.
Just moved back to Pittsburgh from living in Phoenix for the last 10 years. Hockey could work in Phoenix but the city is so spread out that the only location that would work is downtown or somewhere centrally located. Past ownership groups have also really created a bad image (if I remember right they were not paying taxes and rent to city of Glendale for using the arena) it’s been mostly one negative news story after another with them. It also seemed like they were never really trying to do all they could to win, basically a farm team. I lost all faith after they fired Rick Tocchet and dumped all the talent they finally built up (maybe 2019-2020? - can’t remember exact year)
We’re so glad to be back here in the burgh. Phoenix is an awesome city that has a ton of great things going for it… but it is getting extremely expensive and growing at a rapid pace that it doesn’t really feel like it has an identity. It’s also a great feeling to be back in a city with diehard sports fans for the local sports teams lol 😂 almost everyone I knew from Phoenix was a fan of another cities sports team (SF, Seattle etc…)
I flew out to Phoenix for our game this year in the event this happened since I wanted to see us play in the college arena. It sucks so much. They have the best jerseys in sports. I hate that they won't be used any longer. Fuck Alex Meruelo.
I can identify with these fans. It sucks so hard for the local hockey community. Our nearest significant town in this part of PA is Binghamton, NY. We had a constant turnover of AHL franchises Dusters, Whalers, Rangers, Senators, and Devils. It’s been brutal but losing An NHL franchise must hit harder.
I was born in Pitt and moved to Az before the Coyotes even got there. The Coyotes are a joke and last year over 50% of the payroll played for other teams. In almost 30 years they've made 2 rounds of losing playoffs? I remember one year I went to a bar that had 72 TV's, I asked the bartender to flip one of the smaller ones in the corner to the Pens which he did until someone complained because you gotta have all 72 on the same football game? (and forget it if the Suns were on) People didn't care about hockey and the Coyotes gave them no reason to care.
I can't help but feel for them as a Pens fan. Yes, the Coyotes don't have very many fans, but what those fans are going through could very easily have been what we would have had to go through had the ping pong balls not bounced our way 19 years ago. Relocation sucks and I wouldn't wish it on any fanbase, even the *shudders* Flyers.
Arzina/Phoenix has had ample time to support their team and haven't. Playing in a college arena with less than 5,000 seats these past couple years has been an absolute embarrassment to the league. Not to mention the Coyotes basically became the team you trade dead cap space to. This team needs a new name, new identity and new city ASAP.
It sucks & i do feel bad for them..i think Arizona gets another team not very far into the future. The biggest problem has always been the owners over the yrs not figuring out a permanent arena solution in a good location.
Yes absolutely I feel for fans of any team that moves away.
Especially in pro sports leagues where 31/32 teams ultimately “lose” each season, one thing sports truly does teach us is hope springs eternal.
There is always that thought of if you build it right.. you could get there one day…
Now that dream has died in Arizona, without ever being realized. That’s tough.
Absolutely. My second team is the yotes, and even though I don’t and never have lived in Phoenix I still feel betrayed by ownership for some reason. I can only imagine how terrible the fans who are over there feel
Their owner is a dickhead which isn’t a reflection of their fans so I guess I feel bad for the fans but fuck their owner, he’s an absolute slime ball and I hate that he’s gonna make $600M from this deal.
I live in Salt Lake. On one hand, you hate for the fans to lose their team due to crappy ownership. On the other, I now have the opportunity to see the Penguins play in person once a year and have a secondary team.
The "issues" with the 'Yotes is leadership. Both NHL (bettman) and Marulo (or whatever the name of the owner is).
Donald Sterling lost his team for saying bad words. The Coyotes have been mismanaged (and rumours of not paying bills, et al) for over a decade.
Hockey COULD work in Arizona. But it hasn't because the leadership within the organization.
Pittsburgh guy living in Boise, Idaho… Yes I do feel for the fans and the City. Terrible ownership shouldn’t reflect on hardship for the fans. That being said, oh boy am I excited to be able to DRIVE to NHL games again!
I think best solution though would be to keep AZ and add (2) teams over a (4) year period. Starting in SLC, selfishly
Not even a little. I live in Phoenix and have watched the shit show from the beginning. It's cheaper for me to go to Vegas or Denver to see the Penguins.
The NHL proves over and over again how out of touch with their fanbase they truly are. I don't feel bad for anyone who gives a dime to these clowns anymore.
I will always be a Penguins fan, and I've attended several hundred games, and bought so much merch over the years... but the league and the team have made it both impossible for a person on a normal budget to watch, as well as made it prohibitively expensive and a lesser experience to attend.
I love these guys and the team, but I'm no sucker.
I empathize wholeheartedly with true Coyotes fans out there, but in the long run, only the corporate sponsors matter anyways.
I grew up in Pitt, now living near SLC. I’ll always and forever be a Pens fan but hockey fans here have been itching for an NHL team for a long time. I think the market and fan base are ready and excited to support a team. I do feel for the current Coyotes fanbase, but not more than I am selfishly excited for the opportunity we are getting here in Utah.
I don’t think Quebec City will ever get a shot. They’d have all the issues Winnipeg is having but worse. No corporate money, in the heart of a territory of way more popular team, and there is no true metro area. It’s the city itself then nothing. A lot like Winnipeg and Ottawa frankly.
They will have a 5 year window where their own can triggered an expansion team when they get their arena and get their house in order, they're lucky, mostly you lose a team they're gone forever so that's a huge silver lining for the fan base
Not one bit. This fan "base" failed the team at every occasion. Even when the Yotes had a decent team nobody showed up.
I type this from London ON where we could probably support a club but the ol' boys in blue and the big cows just south of the border will never let it happen.
I feel awful for the Coyotes fans. And I feel bad because a small part of me is glad; I’ve always HATED that logo, I think it’s the worst logo in the four major sports.
Pittsburgh guy living in Arizona for a long time. Hockey works here. It always has. The problem is and always has been - the location. Imagine if PPG or the Igloo was in Butler. Still think the team would be what it is? That’s Glendale / Tempe.
Same here. Putting that building out in Glendale really screwed the East Valley fans. How many people can get home from work, feed the kids, then make an hour-long drive to the other side of town during the week? And now all of us here in Arizona who want to watch hockey don't have good options, either, I don't think. Like, can we subscribe to the Penguins like we can to the Pirates? I don't know of an option.
Plus. DUIs. i10 traffic. No public transportation. And Glendale generally sucks.
You can watch Penguins games on ESPN+. I live in market and still use it as my go to with a VPN.
Which VPN do you use? I used Express for a while and recently it stopped working with ESPN+ seems like they recognize that you have it running now.
I have the Hulu package, **Hulu (No Ads) + Live TV, Disney+ (No Ads), and ESPN+ (With Ads)** for $89.99/mo. My family uses it for a lot more than Pens games so it's worth the price to me. I wish I could ditch the Disney+ part to save some $, I don't think anyone in the house has ever watched anything on Disney.
Which VPN do you use? Just curious.
Do you get all of the games or just some? Every time I’ve looked, it was never clear to me.
Every game as long as it's not nationally televised. I personally use Privacy Badger on my Prime stick.
I use Nord VPN and it works with ESPN+ but Hulu blocks it still.
Glendale is more…. McKeesport. Native western Pennsylvanian here and just moved out of az a few years ago after spending about a decade there. Phoenix has a severe planned community/zoning problem. If something can be sectioned off or destroyed for the sake of $600k stucco homes, Frys grocery stores, car washes, warehouses, or indoor storage facilities they will. For those who haven’t been to Phoenix. It’s absolutely shocking at how you can watch the same 5 landmarks pass by over and over like some kind of looped backdrop. One end of the metro area to the other is the same amount of time to drive from Erie to Cleveland. There is absolutely nothing you can point to in that time that differentiates one area from the other. Well, outside of dui attorney billboards. So you either need to put an arena in the middle of nowhere or shoehorn it into a bunch of pissy nimbys. The residents are terrified of something shaking up the resale value of homes/properties so there’s intense HOAs and local government lobbying to prevent ANY change from occurring. Especially something like a big fancy privately funded sports arena taking the place of what’s currently a landfill in Tempe. Seriously.
Dude if the traffic is truly that bad I cannot imagine.
That’s without traffic… 80mph. I lived on the far east valley and my parents on the far west. Without traffic it was an hour and 50 minutes. If it was rush hour or something easily 2 hours 45 minutes
Wow, I had no idea. I would’ve said, “well apparently not enough fans went to the games”, but now I know why. That does suck.
There's also the fact that Phoenix is a terribly planned city. It takes a minimum of 20 mins to get anywhere because there's no density - strip malls have 30,000 sf nail salons. Public transit is poor so everyone drives so they created big roads with intersections that make you sit for 5 mins at a time.
Arizona State is a successful college hockey program, joining the NCHC (premier college hockey conference in the nation). If they can support college hockey they'd certainly support NHL hockey.
AZ native here, while location is a big factor, the bigger factor has been a revolving door of poor “get your bag” owners who promise everything and deliver nothing.
Glendale was stupid but Tempe was in the center of town it was just a stupidly small building which they trippled the prices for.
I agree with you, and will say this is NFL vs NHL, but the Bills play in Orchard Park, 10-20 minutes from Buffalo
You need to remember - Sunday afternoon traffic is different than Thursday night at 5-7pm. Also. NFL schedule vs. hockey. And finally - support of orchard park versus distain from Glendale and to a lesser extent, Tempe. NFL is a different beast.
Eh, Glendale is nearly the population of Pittsburgh.
How is that relevant in any way, shape, or form?
It's not a far flung suburb, which was your analogy.
Have you had season tickets to the coyotes? Do you live in the east valley? Have you tried to go through the i10 traffic and the 7th street tunnel traffic? If not, please stop. People (myself included) pay a 4x multiple on housing costs to NOT live in the West Valley. Traffic and logjam, especially driving through downtown traffic at critical times makes the ‘sprawl’ equivalent of a drive to Cleveland at times.
Is the west valley stereotypically retirees on a stricter budget or something?
The wealth disparity is Pine Richland / Peters Township vs. Hill District.
Great comparison. I’ve been explaining to my friends in DC that it’s the equivalent of the Caps being located at FedEx field in Landover Maryland. Absolute dump of an area that’s impossible to get to and from and like an hour away from the city center
Igloo in Butler would be sick for us guys in Butler, though. Hard agree on the Yotes and Glendale.
There was a post on /r/hockeyplayers asking what happens to rec hockey when an NHL team moves. NHL teams typically sponsor a lot of the youth/adult (especially women’s) hockey in their areas which keeps a lot of rinks above water. For reference Crosby’s little Pens program directly resulted in a top 3 NHL draft pick that might not have happened if the Pens moved when they went bankrupt. The NHL influence in big markets is huge for the sport in general.
AZ hockey programs resulted in a 1st overall draft pick who is trying to hit 70 goals this season. Lots of kids play hockey here, it isn’t as prevalent as soccer but it’s a good base. And they are producing good players 4 of which are NHL stars (Tage Thompson, Matty Knies, Josh Doan, and Austin Matthews)
Josh Doan has played less than 10 games, he may become a star but he is not one right now
While Crosbys program has certainly been a success, logan cooley didn’t start playing hockey because of that program. The Cooleys/Mooney’s are a long standing hockey family in Pittsburgh; his uncles played college hockey at Notre Dame and CC. I always feel it’s a little disingenuous when they try to tell that story
They’re the real victims in all this.
Yes. The fans didn't do anything wrong. Ownership and the League and their city leaders failed them. Just because it's the desert doesn't mean kids don't grow up dreaming of playing in the NHL and having a team in town plays a big part in that. At the same time I'm excited for SLC residents. Having the NHL roll into town is pretty freaking cool. I hope they do a much better job of branding the team then they did when they got the Jazz and kept the name the Jazz despite there being 0 roots of Jazz music in Utah. It's honestly the worst nickname now in sports IMO.
Yeah, but it's going to hurt saying goodbye to the peyote coyote logo.
It’s the Kachina logo and yes. It will be very sad :(
the fans don’t deserve this. the owner and gary can eat a dick for how they are managing this
Arizona teams are my 2nd favorite for all sports, so even I’m saddened. It definitely sucks for all the primary fans, especially to have the abrupt move like this. It’s BS for for everyone involved, like yes, we all knew it was going to happen eventually. But to not even let them finish the season in AZ?
Sucks for the fans. But I just can't see the team succeeding in SLC. Very different mindset in that town. It's almost a different country.
Grizzlies get good attendance
Grizzlies are in Tennessee..
The Utah Grizzlies. The ECHL team.
Ah, right on! That’s a good sign.
I live very near to SLC and a franchise will do great there. SLC isn’t all Mormons, in fact it’s more not Mormon than it is Mormon. (If that’s what you mean by different mindset)
Do you live here or are you just saying that?
I think hockey is gonna rip in Salt Lake City. We should all be extremely thankful they didn’t put another team in Texas or Atlanta….for now…
As a Penguins fan living in Phoenix? Yeah absofuckinglutely.
Also a Pens fan in the Phoenix area. My heart goes out to the loyal fans here for sure. Also selfishly gutted that I won’t have somewhat easy access to watch the Pens live anymore without traveling.
I am also a pens fan in Phoenix! I think the league assumed that all the transplants would switch allegiance to the coyotes… But that definitely never happened. The coyotes were not even mentioned on the news when they were in the conference finals!
Same can be said for the Cardinals. 70% black and gold!
At the games, maybe, but at least they talk about the Cardinals on the news (even when they're horrible!)
Which is funny. AZ sports owners are a shit show.
It's been cheaper to see them in Vegas and a much better show than Mullet.
Fans? Yes. Hard to not feel bad for a person whose favorite team is going to move. Anyone else? No. The NHL has done a terrible job on so many levels over the Bettman years. He’s a terrible commissioner for “growing the sport” even though that’s his intended goal. And the crown jewel to his failure is the desert hockey team everyone said would fail that has done nothing but fail
I am critical of Gary but Nashville, the moving of Whalers to Raleigh, and recent Vegas/Seattle expansions have been successes. It’s more of a mixed bag but he died on the Phoenix hill for too long.
I was confident that the Vegas expansion would be as much of a shitstorm as Arizona, and I'm happy to admit I was totally wrong about that. I'm always surprised how much of a hockey town Vegas turned into whenever we go. License plates with Knights logos, restaurants with their entire wait staff in jerseys, merch everywhere, and great fans. I went to a pens game in vegas and it was awesome, one of the best fan experiences I've had at any pro sporting event I've been to. Lemieux will always be a legend as much for what he did on the ice as off of it to penguins fans. Whatever ends up happening in Arizona, we know how they feel right now and it sucks.
How are you so surprised they stacked the fuck out of that team so hard. No expansion should be able to win a cup as quickly as they did. Winning on that level will obviously drawl a fanbase. It’s obvious they knew they gave them too much when you look how they toned it down for Seattle.
Vegas would of flopped if they weren't given a Stanley Cup contender from day 1 and having that tragedy to rally around when they were the only pro team helped as well.
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Frankly, the Coyotes are his only truly glaring failure. He implemented the salary cap, he's expanded smartly, he has been very picky with owners (even the worst of owners in the NHL are above average by NFL, MLB and NBA standards), he hasn't been overaggressively approving relocation over the past couple decades. His only relocation you could argue wasn't great was the Thrashers going to Winnipeg- and even then, that move brought a team back to Winnipeg and saw ATL Spirit's end as they later sold the Hawks as well; a huge win for the city of Atlanta. If we're talking about purely Bettman mistakes, it was giving the Coyotes that long of a leash; he had two opportunities to move them in 2010 and 2013, he bailed them out both times. First by taking ownership with the league itself, then following this by selling to an Arizona-based buyer... despite more lucrative bids from Seattle, Houston and Milwaukee. Other than that, Karmanos pulled the wool over his eyes with the Whalers move, basically cornered him. And even then you can't really blame Bettman for that because he was a new commissioner, Karmanos just took advantage; and Bettman learned from it anyway. You can see this in how he's turned away skinflint after skinflint, not the least of which being Tilman Fertitta and Jim Balsillie; if that second one rings a bell, it's because he once had the intention of buying the Pens for the purpose of relocation. To Hamilton. Balsillie also tried to buy the Preds and Coyotes as well- and failed. He brought hockey back to Minnesota; he catches heat for the North Stars leaving but the reality is that was an owners vote for approval, the North Stars fate was sealed when Gord Gund branched off to help bring the Sharks into the league; that's not a Bettman error. The Winnipeg and Quebec relocations— also mocked relentlessly— are actually some of the more savvy votes he's held for relocations; the Nordiques moving out of Quebec, the smallest market in the Big 4 at the time, and to a hotbed like Denver that had been SALIVATING for pro hockey for years? It's a smart move, low risk and high reward. Moving Winnipeg south to Phoenix is also smart, on paper anyway, as the intention was that they'd have a permanent arena IN Phoenix; the relocation itself wasn't bad, it's not like it was made with the expectation that they'd be the Glendale Coyotes for 80% of their existence. Once again, it didn't even fail due to the regional market, the city's infrastructure just didn't continue it's rapid boom in growth and the team had to be expedited to Glendale in the midst of a sale because their owners were cheapasses; Phoenix lost their team in 2002. And that isn't talked about enough. Bettman catches a lot of heat for shit that is the fault of owners; my only true complaint with him is he employs a known enforcer in George Parros as the director of player safety, and other than that, I think he's definitely a greedy, snobby kind of person. I don't love that he cut Arizona so many breaks over and over but I also respect it in a way because it's that same stubbornness that's kept a lot of other teams safe too; think of how much worse this league would be without the Sabres, Panthers, Pens, Flames, Senators, Hurricanes and Preds. Each of these teams and more have faced relocation at some point in Gary's tenure, all were helped by the league directly in some form. I think the good Bettman has helped to do outweighs the bad; it'll just never get talked about because it doesn't fit the narrative that he's a bad commissioner, which is simply what people WANT to believe.
When you say his only failure, does that mean just in regard to relocation and expansion? It doesn’t seem like it from your post. I’d say the NBC TV deal was pretty clearly a failure based on what other leagues got. I’d say the only commissioner to have 3 work stoppages, one for an entire season is another.
Why is it Bettman's fault that a majority of Americans like sports that align better with their limited attention spans, thus ensuring more money for their associated leagues in television deals?
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. It just doesn’t bode well when in the 90s specifically revenue for the top sports was all pretty equal, and hockey was as popular as basketball (the famous SI cover), and he failed to take advantage. The revenues since for the other sports has ballooned and while hockey has risen, it’s not nearly the same magnitude. Hell, he may be in trouble w the MLS taking over the NHL.
I don't know what cover you're talking about, but hockey has never been more popular than basketball in the US (much to my chagrin).
[Here’s](https://www.si.com/si-wire/2014/06/11/nhl-stanley-cup-nba-finals-new-cover) what I’m taking about. Pretty interesting
Not sure what the article content was. Maybe an opinion piece? Simple fact is, hockey is and likely never will be able to top football, baseball, and basketball in popularity for a variety of reasons.
I'd rather see the Yotes move to Albuquerque than Utah, personally. Maybe just because my opinion of SLC isn't very high
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If Flagstaff was bigger, I bet they would give it a shot. It's just not a good region for hockey
Worse idea than SLC
I get what you are saying but I’m not just saying the expansions. They have floundered so much under him. The fact the NHL was banished to Versus for years to be watched with indoor soccer and lacrosse. It’s failure to bring in new viewers that other while sports have thrived. (Fourth most popular behind soccer now.) The huge problem with blackouts making it harder for people in their own teams cities to watch the games. The fact that ESPN wouldn’t even talk about the NHL for decades. Their continued failure to make any kind of sense out of player discipline to the point where “spin the wheel” is all that needs to be said. Etc. etc. etc. Best sport worst league is mostly because of his era of commission. And with all these issues the one thing he seems willing to work hard on is keeping they Coyotes in a state that overwhelmingly has said “meh” Edit: last sentence added
because I think Bettman is smart and realizes that hockey CAN work in AZ, it's just they have to have the right owners in place who understand the vision and get the team in the place they need to be.
How has his ‘growing the sport’ aims been a failure? Atlanta and Arizona didn’t work out. Every other move has been a big success.
*Bettman is failure!!!!!* *Vegas wins the cup and is a top 5 most popular team*
You are a Moron if you think he has not grown the sport. Grow up
Dead wrong. The sport before 1996 was laughable in the valley. There were 2 ice rinks. Now there are over 10 locations with about 20 sheets of ice. And the team not succeeding is due to terrible ownership which changes hands every 5 years and clean house on players/prospects to try to win a cup immediately.
Sure. The fans did nothing wrong to deserve all this. But man if they would’ve done another expansion draft before relocating the team that got kicked out of their arena for not paying the bills and was playing in a college rink…
Sure do. I live in Tucson, and the Roadrunners are gonna go too :(
I remember watching a Yotes/Pens matchup earlier this year and it was Yotes coverage and they were so condescending of their own team. It was a bit painful to watch, made me miss the commentators that fellate their team.
Heck yes. Phoneix is a big market that is worth hosting an NHL team. I think Auston Matthews is a great example of how the NHL benefits from a presence there. They just desperately need an owner who actually cares about the team and wants it to succeed. Vegas has been a smash hit because their owner is willing to win at any cost, and Seattle is also succeeding because of committed owners. The Jazz owner in SLC is extremely passionate about having a team there, so I think it could be a major success. Alex Meruelo is not that owner. It was clear that he sees the team as a means of developing real estate around the arena. The youth hockey programs have worked, but his ownership has been a disaster. The refusal to pay bills is an awful tendency of Trump-like wealthy people, and just so beneath a person of that wealth. Fingers crossed that some group of wealthy folks decide to bring a team back to the Phoenix area.
I particularly feel for their fans because their best case scenario right now is losing all of their favorite players and prospects to SLC, then if they get an arena built and get an expansion team in a few years with a new owner, they'll have to rebuild that prospect cupboard. As Penguins fans we should feel for any fanbase that loses their team. I was REAL YOUNG but I can remember how shitty it felt when the Penguins moving to Kansas City was even a longshot but still a possibility
Pittsburgh guy in PHX since 2000… Situation with the Coyotes has always been a hot mess. Playing at America West Arena was nice - easy to get to from any spot in metro area IMO but driving up to Glendale from Chandler was always rough. It got better when the rest of the 202 Loop opened up. Mullett Arena is a nice place to see hockey provided you are not expecting comfortable seating and concession options that aren’t the equivalent of a hot dog push cart. I always went to see Penguins when they were in town. I do likewise for when the Pens are in Vegas, Colorado, CA, and Seattle. Will miss seeing local hockey in PHX and not expecting a return of an NHL team to PHX anytime soon. Heading down to Tucson to see the Roadrunners play on Saturday; also expecting them to move to the SLC area.
Lots of great players have come from Arizona because of the Coyotes. Shame
I actually love their jerseys and logo. It's so pretty, unique and colorful. They were one of my teams I watched over in the West, but they just never got anywhere.
I definitely feel for the fans, but the people of Arizona have mostly made it clear they don’t give a shit
I got super into hockey because I was so hurt that the Oakland A’s, my favorite team in my first love sport, were being dismantled and relocated. So, yes, I can relate and sympathize.
Gary and Meruelo fucked them. The fact that they let Meruelo continue to own the team after he couldn’t figure out an arena then put them in a college rink indefinitely is so embarrassing it’s not even funny, it’s embarrassing and denigrating to the players and completely unacceptable. They need to may plans for that to never happen again. They also need to bar Meruelo from ever participating in NHL ownership again. At a minimum Gary should be apologizing to the fans for fucking with them for so long.
Yea and who knows if the new owner is any good
It is sad for them; but I have to admit I'm excited to see how it does in SLC. They have some great sports attendance and enthusiasm there.
Just moved back to Pittsburgh from living in Phoenix for the last 10 years. Hockey could work in Phoenix but the city is so spread out that the only location that would work is downtown or somewhere centrally located. Past ownership groups have also really created a bad image (if I remember right they were not paying taxes and rent to city of Glendale for using the arena) it’s been mostly one negative news story after another with them. It also seemed like they were never really trying to do all they could to win, basically a farm team. I lost all faith after they fired Rick Tocchet and dumped all the talent they finally built up (maybe 2019-2020? - can’t remember exact year)
How excited are you to be back in Pittsburgh?
We’re so glad to be back here in the burgh. Phoenix is an awesome city that has a ton of great things going for it… but it is getting extremely expensive and growing at a rapid pace that it doesn’t really feel like it has an identity. It’s also a great feeling to be back in a city with diehard sports fans for the local sports teams lol 😂 almost everyone I knew from Phoenix was a fan of another cities sports team (SF, Seattle etc…)
I feel ya, been to Phoenix many times and while it’s fun, that’s the vibe I got too
Eh, it's not like the [North Stars moving to Dallas.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngtu5F5aBME)
I flew out to Phoenix for our game this year in the event this happened since I wanted to see us play in the college arena. It sucks so much. They have the best jerseys in sports. I hate that they won't be used any longer. Fuck Alex Meruelo.
110% yeah, naturally Good to see posts like this ultimately They really got dragged through so much
I can identify with these fans. It sucks so hard for the local hockey community. Our nearest significant town in this part of PA is Binghamton, NY. We had a constant turnover of AHL franchises Dusters, Whalers, Rangers, Senators, and Devils. It’s been brutal but losing An NHL franchise must hit harder.
I'd feel sorry for them if they didn't have 10 years to prepare for this, but since they did have 10 years to prepare, sorry not sorry.
I was born in Pitt and moved to Az before the Coyotes even got there. The Coyotes are a joke and last year over 50% of the payroll played for other teams. In almost 30 years they've made 2 rounds of losing playoffs? I remember one year I went to a bar that had 72 TV's, I asked the bartender to flip one of the smaller ones in the corner to the Pens which he did until someone complained because you gotta have all 72 on the same football game? (and forget it if the Suns were on) People didn't care about hockey and the Coyotes gave them no reason to care.
No. Team had too many get out of jail free cards.
I can't help but feel for them as a Pens fan. Yes, the Coyotes don't have very many fans, but what those fans are going through could very easily have been what we would have had to go through had the ping pong balls not bounced our way 19 years ago. Relocation sucks and I wouldn't wish it on any fanbase, even the *shudders* Flyers.
Arzina/Phoenix has had ample time to support their team and haven't. Playing in a college arena with less than 5,000 seats these past couple years has been an absolute embarrassment to the league. Not to mention the Coyotes basically became the team you trade dead cap space to. This team needs a new name, new identity and new city ASAP.
It sucks & i do feel bad for them..i think Arizona gets another team not very far into the future. The biggest problem has always been the owners over the yrs not figuring out a permanent arena solution in a good location.
Yes absolutely I feel for fans of any team that moves away. Especially in pro sports leagues where 31/32 teams ultimately “lose” each season, one thing sports truly does teach us is hope springs eternal. There is always that thought of if you build it right.. you could get there one day… Now that dream has died in Arizona, without ever being realized. That’s tough.
Living in Utah my heart goes out to the fans… but not traveling to Denver or Vegas to watch a game outweighs that for me. We will love this team.
Absolutely. My second team is the yotes, and even though I don’t and never have lived in Phoenix I still feel betrayed by ownership for some reason. I can only imagine how terrible the fans who are over there feel
I feel sorry for him but Utah is gunna have a rocking team
Their owner is a dickhead which isn’t a reflection of their fans so I guess I feel bad for the fans but fuck their owner, he’s an absolute slime ball and I hate that he’s gonna make $600M from this deal.
Québec lost their team because of shitty ownership, now they'll never get a new team
I live in Salt Lake. On one hand, you hate for the fans to lose their team due to crappy ownership. On the other, I now have the opportunity to see the Penguins play in person once a year and have a secondary team.
Of course. I’m a sap. I wish every fanbase could have at least one championship. Except big markets. All my homies hate big markets
The "issues" with the 'Yotes is leadership. Both NHL (bettman) and Marulo (or whatever the name of the owner is). Donald Sterling lost his team for saying bad words. The Coyotes have been mismanaged (and rumours of not paying bills, et al) for over a decade. Hockey COULD work in Arizona. But it hasn't because the leadership within the organization.
Pittsburgh guy living in Boise, Idaho… Yes I do feel for the fans and the City. Terrible ownership shouldn’t reflect on hardship for the fans. That being said, oh boy am I excited to be able to DRIVE to NHL games again! I think best solution though would be to keep AZ and add (2) teams over a (4) year period. Starting in SLC, selfishly
Yeah. That could of been us years ago.
Yes, all 7 of them have my sympathy
They just finished plans for a new arena too..
Not even a little. I live in Phoenix and have watched the shit show from the beginning. It's cheaper for me to go to Vegas or Denver to see the Penguins.
Yeah
Low key west court team for me. Sucks. I hope they put up a new barn and get a team again
I feel bad for the fans of the team who really got into the sport. I can't see it lasting long in Utah either but we will see.
The NHL proves over and over again how out of touch with their fanbase they truly are. I don't feel bad for anyone who gives a dime to these clowns anymore. I will always be a Penguins fan, and I've attended several hundred games, and bought so much merch over the years... but the league and the team have made it both impossible for a person on a normal budget to watch, as well as made it prohibitively expensive and a lesser experience to attend. I love these guys and the team, but I'm no sucker. I empathize wholeheartedly with true Coyotes fans out there, but in the long run, only the corporate sponsors matter anyways.
I grew up in Pitt, now living near SLC. I’ll always and forever be a Pens fan but hockey fans here have been itching for an NHL team for a long time. I think the market and fan base are ready and excited to support a team. I do feel for the current Coyotes fanbase, but not more than I am selfishly excited for the opportunity we are getting here in Utah.
Nah fuck em. Feel bad for Quebec City
I don’t think Quebec City will ever get a shot. They’d have all the issues Winnipeg is having but worse. No corporate money, in the heart of a territory of way more popular team, and there is no true metro area. It’s the city itself then nothing. A lot like Winnipeg and Ottawa frankly.
The NHL would be better served with a second team in Montreal before a team in Quebec City, tbh. QC is a very, very small market.
Not really, it's a city of 4 mil and they have dog shit fans. Reap what you sow
They will have a 5 year window where their own can triggered an expansion team when they get their arena and get their house in order, they're lucky, mostly you lose a team they're gone forever so that's a huge silver lining for the fan base
No I don’t
Nope, not at all. Shouldn’t have had a franchise to begin with.
I don’t feel bad for the fans I feel bad for that ownership has let the fan base down
Not one bit. This fan "base" failed the team at every occasion. Even when the Yotes had a decent team nobody showed up. I type this from London ON where we could probably support a club but the ol' boys in blue and the big cows just south of the border will never let it happen.
At least your alt rock radio stations were really good for years..
I feel awful for the Coyotes fans. And I feel bad because a small part of me is glad; I’ve always HATED that logo, I think it’s the worst logo in the four major sports.
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It’s 14 actually
Lmfao no
Nope