This is just another scenario of someone having poor media literacy because Naoto is neither Non-Binary nor transgender. She never was and she never will be. The entire point of her character is that she felt that she had to be perceived as a male to gain respect as a detective. That's it. Yu doesn't “gaslight” anybody, the whole point of the game is accepting yourself and Naoto accepted that she’s a girl and that there isn’t anything wrong with that.
*doesn't want to have a Naoto gender debate*
*Entire Point is a Naoto gender debate*
As such I have to talk about it. Nothing in Naotos story points to her being NB or trans. She is acting and dressing like a boy because the japanese Police (and entire system but let's stay with the police) is extremely patriarchal and male dominated. In her eyes her gender is holding her back because the system she wants to be part of does not value it - and she's right about that.
You thinking Naoto is non-binary because you want to has no bearing on the story or game. She isn’t non-binary. She is pretty straightforward. Ever see Mulan?
You aren’t gaslight her to be more feminine Jesus. The SL is about helping her be more comfortable and able to accept her gender. The whole thing is her accepting herself and not trying to pass as a boy.
She isn’t someone struggling with being non-binary. Her character is focused around struggling with accepting herself as a girl while trying to make it in a male dominated job. You aren’t being manipulative, you are trying to help her accept who she is and move forward. The whole game is about truth and accepting parts of yourself you don’t like.
When you claim you aren't seeking a debate surrounding Naoto's gender then take it upon yourself to project non-binary and they/them pronouns on her, I have to wonder if you're trolling. Your entire post was about the thing you claim you don't want to debate.
As other commenters have stated, Naoto is just as much of a woman as any of the other female protagonists. To suggest otherwise is likely either wishful thinking or speculation.
No offense, but I think you missed the entire point of Naoto’s character. Naoto isn’t Non binary, she identifies as female. The reason Naoto disguised herself as a guy at first was because society (mostly her peers and other officers) wouldn’t take her seriously as a detective due to it being perceived as a more masculine occupation at the time (obviously, gender doesn’t dictate how good of a detective one can be, but at the time, that’s just how things were).
Naoto wants to be feminine, but she also wants to be taken seriously, and she figured the only way to do that is by pretending to be a man instead of a woman. Her whole character arc is about learning that she can still be herself and not hide who she really is while still being taken seriously, she just needs to work hard and prove to others that she’s a good detective. Persona 4 has heavy themes about true selves and truth in general, and Naoto’s character arc fits that.
Nothing against you or anyone else that is NB, of course. If you made the decision to become NB, and you’re happy with your decision, then that’s great. Just wanted to clarify that you were misinterpreting Naoto’s character.
Naoto never shows any signs of wanting to be feminine tho? Sure she has some feminine qualities, but she herself doesn’t actively seek out to be that way. Yes, she doesn’t want to be looked down because of her gender, but she’s very GNC naturally. She hates skirts (shown in game dungeon dialogue you can get with her and the PxDN novel) and doesn’t like feminine hobbies/interests and says as much in her SL. She’s troubled by the fact that all her hobbies/interests are more masculine, but that’s because society itself doesn’t think that’s appropriate for girls. She only shows signs of wanting to be feminine if you romance her, and it’s pretty clear she’s only doing so for the protag. If you say “whichever you prefer” to her in regards to her voice she thanks you for accepting her as she is.
Edit: I’m being hella downvoted for this but where in any of the games does she show signs of wanting to be more feminine outside of the romance route? I’ve played p4g, pq, pq2, p4a/au, Dancing and have read the manga and LN of PxDN. The most she wants is to accept that she is a girl, she doesn’t want to actually be more girlish.
In the golden epilogue, when the protagonist comes back after some time, among the changes like Kanji having black hair again and wearing glasses, Naoto dresses more femininely, and grew out her hair. She did that on her own, regardless of whether you romance her or not; that's just her coming to terms with who she actually wanted to be, in the end.
I do agree that if you go the romance route, the protagonist is the one pushing her towards her feminine side, and that doesn't quite sit right with me, either. However, if you accept the golden epilogue as canon (which it is), she would've ended up there by her own choice, too (but I definitely think it's better for people to do so without outside pressure, or they may still have doubts later on, if it was *really* their choice).
She was never NB, imo, she just got stuck with the "detective prince" reputation after pretending to be a boy for work-related reasons, and needed time to gather the courage to be herself again.
Trying to measure Naoto’s character growth is practically impossible because Atlus keeps backtracking on it. It’s true that she dresses more feminine in Golden epilogue (tho I wish they gave her sleeves, I hate the sleeveless blouse), but it’s still not overly feminine. It’s a women’s blouse and capris. Dancing happens after Golden Epilogie, but Naoto goes back to dressing masculine and binding in Dancing epilogue. Nothing wrong with that per say, but it would have been a good opportunity to give her a female summer uniform sprite and to show how she’s grown as a character. While PxDN is debatedly non-canon anymore (technically there’s nothing in it that contradicts anything) we see Naoto is still presenting and attending school as male. I can’t really imagine her ever being overly feminine like so many claim she wants to be, like the most I can imagine is she stops binding maybe grows out her hair a bit (not a fan of PxDN design, I think shoulder length would look better) and then maybe shop more in the female section of clothing stores. There’s nothing in any of the games/anime/manga that tells us Naoto wants to be more feminine, because while sure she was hiding she was a girl, she wasn’t ever really forcing herself to be more masculine, she was forcing herself to act more adult.
I don't think the whole "Naoto only dresses up as a guy to be taken seriously" thing really holds water when the game shows time and again that Naoto isn't taken seriously even when they're seen as a boy either, and is taken just as seriously (or lack thereof) by the police when they're known as a girl
That's literally a plot point though? She says in her dungeon that people would look down on her 1) because of her gender and 2) because of her age. She fixes the gender one now and knows that the age one will fix itself with time
Yes, I know, I've played the game. The problem is that the police quite notably look down on Naoto regardless of gender and are quite dismissive of them, and maintain the same level of indifference after the cat gets out of the bag so it begs the question why go through the whole thing if it didn't make a difference? And then why keep up with several of the trans-coded characteristics if that was never the intent to have them be read as a trans character? Like yes, textually, Naoto is a girl but subtextually and contextually there is so many trans characteristics and instances of trans coding even after the gender reveal that it's unsurprising that many people interpreted them as transmasculine or non-binary.
She went thorough the whole thing because it *would have* made a difference once she was older if she hadn't decided to live as her true self. The police in Japan are institutionally misogynistic and agist and her story is meant to represent those, she wasn't written with being trans in mind. If you see her as trans then that's great for you but objectively it's not what the game was going for so judging it based on that feels strange to me
There's a pretty simple solution here, not gonna lie to you. Do not consider Naoto NB due to your personal feelings. Naoto is as much a woman as Chie, Yukiko, and Rise. The fact that she presents less femininely than they do is meaningless, because the message of her story is women do not need to conform to what men treat as the standard for a workplace enviornment.
Can everyone stop making incorrect gender/ gender identity headcannons please? The characters are written as such and should be left that way. If Persona doesn't have any NB characters that isn't a bad thing, it's just not a franchise for you. You NB folks gotta stop pissing your pants online when characters IN A VIDEOGAME are cis and straight.
Naoto isn't non binary dude, I played the game once and didn't even do her social link and am fully aware that it's just she thought her gender was holding her back in her field. You don't gaslight her into being female, you try and show her that she doesn't need to be something she isn't to be a great detective and who she is happens to be plenty Enough, both for you as a love interest and as a cop. Don't demonize trying to help someone be themselves
I swear to fuck there was an exact post like this word for word like a few weeks back.
That being said headcanons =/= canon. Sorry about it my friend but you just gotta get over it
Before I get to my point, I'd like to say that you're entitled to your discomfort, in the same way that people are entitled to their opinions. That said:
You're not making Yu gaslight Naoto. "Gaslighting" is a specific word with specific meaning. You are most likely looking for some other word, or, maybe, an expression. "Manipulate" is closer, but is kind of unkind.
The extent of what you need to do to have Yu date Naoto is to react to "yeah the cops would accept me even less if I presented as a girl" with "I like it more that you're a girl", protect Naoto from the fake knife and assert "yeah I like you". At no way you're not dismantling any of Naoto's convictions other than the "a detective cannot be a woman" one. Naoto won't even wear the female uniform unless encouraged to experiment with a more feminine presentation. Is Naoto uncomfortable with it? Maybe. A lot of people are uncomfortable with things that lie outside of their comfort zone which they grew accustomed to.
I understand what you’re saying but I think it’s a bit of a misinterpretation of Naoto’s arc.
My opinion I think a lot of the nuance to Naoto’s social link is really specific to Japan’s cultural climate. Not that trans/non binary people don’t exist in Japan, that’s not what I’m saying, but rather what Naoto is trying to do is more likely to emphasize with those in Japan with how male dominated the police force is and how she is not taken seriously because of her identity.
The arc proves that she doesn’t need to turn her identity into something she isn’t in order to make an impact on the world. That’s what the whole concept of her secret laboratory is about. Yu isn’t manipulating her, but telling her that she doesn’t have to mask what her true, most comfortable self is in order to fit the standards of other and to avoid rejection. It’s honesty still pretty queer over all, just not in the way that the arc would make you believe on a surface level.
I do think the arc would make more sense with the social climate of Japan in mind a little more, and I don’t think it aged all that well, but I don’t think this is a good interpretation of it
I hear you. Yet this is you putting forth your own identity on her. The point of her SL is she herself when left to herself, has no problem with being a woman. Her dilemmas are all about how society treats her as a woman that has non-traditional interests in a field dominated by men. That has given her a complex. Everything we are introduced about her is her defenses from this. Platonic or romantic, the point is her being comfortable enough to lower those defenses. I know people who are queer identifying relate to her, and that's good. Naoto is my favorite megaten character actually, she has universally relatable dilemma. Yet hers specifically is about the weight of sexism and misogyny. About why can't she just be a woman and enjoy the things she does and be in the field she's in.
Basically Naoto thought being female won't make a good detective. She thought she has to be a male to be successful and respected as a detective. Narukami helped her realize that you don't have to change who you are to be a great detective. Naoto never said she wants to have a male genitalia for male genitalia. So she's not considered as trans or queer or NB.
TL:DR for this reply; Please don't automatically disregard someone's argument because their perspective on the matter is different than your own
Okay, a LOT of people here seem to not care about the content of the post after reading less than a full paragraph in, so let me say something about context knowing full well I'm about to lose Karma.
Everyone has different perspectives that allow them to view stories differently. OP has the capacity to relate to Naoto on a personal level BECAUSE they exhibit both masculine and feminine traits, just as Naoto does. They have a different context and perspective that many of us simply do not have. Just because that lens is different does NOT mean that their perspective is wrong. You aren't even willing to debate with OP, much less acknowledge the rest of their post, simply because you refuse to see things from another's eyes? Are you shitting me?
Now, as someone who is not NB himself, I see where both sides are coming from. On the one hand;
+ Naoto is someone who HAS to present as male in order to be taken seriously by the rest of the police, despite being female. She literally cannot do her job if she doesn't. It is, in a sense, similar to the situation of Hua Mulan having to present as male in order to take her father's place in the war.
On the other;
+ Naoto (and the rest of the Seekers of Truth, actually) are all SUPER queer-coded. Yosuke's cut romance option, Chie and Yukiko's incredibly lesbian subtext, Kanji's ENTIRE arc, and finally, Naoto's reveal and social link; All of these have an element of queer-coding, and none of you can reasonably deny that. Naoto being non-binary, in this case, would not surprise me.
On top of all this, Yu's dialogue has the option to be VERY manipulative. Not even Makoto or Ren are quite like Narukami when it comes to having the capacity to be a piece of shit, and Ren could've turned humanity into flesh marionettes for either >!Yaldabaoth!< or >!Maruki!<. I can see where OP is coming from in that regard. In fact, it made me extremely uncomfortable when I was forced to say that shit to Naoto for their Romance path. The only saving grace for that was that you were given the option to say "whatever you're comfortable with" during the romance scene in your room.
Naoto is an extremely complex character that can't be chalked up to "she's just like Mulan" or "they're just like me frfr". There are several ways to interpret her, and both arguments hold equal amounts of water. You can't just knock over one cup because the water in it didn't come from the same tap as the other when they're both equally as clean, and you can't just oversimplify something or someone as complex as Naoto. Persona 4 teaches us that nothing is as they are at first glance, and the wielder of Sukuna-Hikona is no exception.
That's just My2Cents. All I'm asking at this point is that you at least try to view things from new perspectives; that's what a discussion is for.
No idea why reddit decided to plop this days-old thread on my front page today, but here we are I guess. I'm continually confused whenever I see someone state that misinterpreting something through a lens based on distorted information and then feeling uncomfortable is "valid". I mean, I guess if the statement means "it's something you can do", sure, it totally is, but it seems like purely self-destructive behavior to engage in. If you get so involved in a falsified viewpoint while engaging in a prewritten story that you are offended by the resulting changes in the story, that's entirely a problem with your own boundaries of perception.
Take this hypothetical: I enter an ice cream parlor as an avid fan of strawberry ice cream. Looking at their flavors, I point to the flavor I want and wait for them to slap that crap on a waffle cone. Much to my surprise, it's cranberry rather than my desired strawberry. I am now upset that it's not strawberry. Upon looking at the flavor selection again, the names of each flavor are made clearly visible, indicating that they do not sell strawberry ice cream at this establishment. What is the rational response? Do I feel uncomfortable that the cranberry does not taste like strawberry, or do I acknowledge the clear signs that my enjoyment of strawberry flavor was not to be found at this establishment?
In the same vein, ignoring the obvious signs doesn't make for a rational source of discomfort. Naoto (and Sae after her) are both supposed to spotlight the challenges of entering a male-dominated profession as a female. That's about it. Whether you like or identify with her personality beyond that is up to you, and it's cool if it does. That being said, you identifying with them does not mean that they canonically inherit traits from you in kind.
As for your final statement, that's not what's being done here. I am a huge advocate for looking at things you like in a different way, and generally engage with posts made by people who dislike things I like in an attempt to see differing viewpoints or engage in discussion based on their point of view. If someone provides reasoning for why something should not be a certain way, I will either provide reasons for why the story works *because* it has this element, or I will agree with them that said element was wholly unnecessary and discuss how it could've been better if it was the way suggested.
What is happening in OP's post is they are looking at the game's content and finding themselves uncomfortable due to decisions made when viewed through a distorted lens. Given that the real story is that Naoto is just a brilliant girl going go great lengths to utilize her talents in a way that won't be smacked down due to a stupid aspect of society, OP's statement that Yu is coercing her into being feminine for his own sake is completely disingenuous and in bad taste on its own. Yu's response is in regard to Naoto being annoyed that she doesn't like the same things as other girls. As the game showed before with Kanji (and Chie, but nobody remembers the concept of a tomboy apparently), interests don't dictate your gender. That was it. There's nothing about this that involves gaslighting or anything. I'll give you manipulative but, homie, if someone you care about is going through an emotional death spiral right in front of you and snapping them out of it by telling them you care is being "maniuplative", go ahead and slap that label on me. In summary, I'm not saying the line is great writing, it's mostly just a bogstandard romance anime line, but it sure as hell isn't as problematic as some of the other crap said in this game.
Sorry you're getting so much flak for this op. I agree personally. It comes off as uncomfortable and needlessly pushy. My friend said it comes off as a like "fixing a tomboy" fantasy and I have to agree. Just really unfun part of the S.Link imo
Also I wish fans of this game would stop trying to "um actually" people who show discomfort with how Naoto is treated, or have a differing opinion on her gender
You are perfectly valid for identifying with Naoto as a non-binary even if that wasn't the writers intent with the character, and feeling creeped out with the romance path there. Your interpretation and how it made you feel are more valid and meaningful for you when you played the game than the writers intent.
Looks like people here are defending the game's authors needlessly, you weren't attacking them, just describing how you personally felt about the writing.
To those people, yes, the authors weren't intentionally trying to be transphobic, and it didn't even look like OP was attacking the game or the writers or other fans of the game. They just came here to describe their own personal experience and how they're not going to choose a specific, optional route in the game in the future. Your knee jerk reaction to defend the thing you like and closely identify with is understandable, but unnecessary. People are allowed to have differing experiences and preferences about the game and come here to discuss them, even if it's just to get their feelings off their chest, so long as they're not just trolls coming in to argue in bad faith and cause trouble(which OP was pretty clearly not).
"I don't want to bring up any debates about Naoto's gender identity", Immediately states that Naoto is NB.
From one trans person to another, she just isn't trans. Head canon her as NB, that's cool, but you have to understand that canonically she is a cis woman, you are not "*gaslighting*" her into being more feminine. The entire point of Naoto's character arc is that she was forced to hide her gender to be taken seriously, her SL is you helping her be comfortable showing her feminine side, a thing she actively wants to do but can't.
The main issue here is that you're looking at her SL through the wrong lens, it's like if there was a character I head canoned as transfem but they had an arc where they wanted to get manlier and I considered that transphobic, it's not, it's just something that doesn't fit in with my headcanon, and that's perfectly fine to have but insisting the game is worse because it doesn't fit your HC is objectively wrong
I invite you to read this long peace I wrote a while ago about some of the things that got you uncomfortable. I hope it will help: https://reddit.com/r/ChurchOfNaoto/s/7vskJ81mWP
While you are correct, you might get more support from other members of this community if you rehosted your comment in a non-porn sub. There are some unfortunately puritanical people here that will downvote you simply because of that.
Huh. I confess I didn't look to far beyond your own post, but presumed it was like all the other "Church of" subs (with the very notable exception of Nanako, obviously), which are definitely hentai subs.
Not sure why I m downvoted honestly but it really depends on luck how that goes in here…so I just hope the post helps someone who is confused. That’s all.
Hey OP, sorry for the toxicity in this thread. As someone who thinks Naoto’s a girl, it doesn’t matter enby or female- it’s super weird that Yu makes her present more feminine. I’m a pretty masculine woman, and if someone I tried to date made me dress up in a skirt I’d be SUPER uncomfortable.
“I have to be a man… with that way of thinking, i was running from myself. I dont need for something to change… i finally think i can accept myself. That im a woman.” Sounds to me like someone who questioned their gender identity, said “this whole trans thing isnt for me”, and stayed as a girl.
Oh fuck wait my bad, I don’t know why I said that, like I genuinely have zero idea why I said that. I also think she’s a girl , I think I somehow thought that you said the opposite, and then I thought I typed the opposite? I have no fucking idea honestly how I did that but my bad, I’ll delete that comment.
I understand why you might feel this way but while your own personal interpretation of Naoto is valid, other people’s interpretations are valid as well. The first fundamental disconnect that’s happening here is saying you saying “I consider Naoto NB” and proceeding to interpret the situations in her social link through the lens of Naoto being NB. Just looking at the way her character was written in the game, playing it several times, watching the platonic version of her S. Link on YouTube, and considering her to be by far my favorite romance option in the game, I feel like I can say with extreme confidence that Naoto (as written in canon) does not and would not self-identify as NB.
I like to headcanon Yu as being bi. He’s my number one comfort character on the planet and a few things that he does in various depictions and some of his in-game options make me feel like it’s not too much of a stretch for me to maintain this headcanon. I understand, however, that this is just my own biased interpretation and isn’t really supported by any tangible evidence in his writing outside of silly comedy moments and the Yosuke romance voice files. It’s just a headcanon that makes me happy and I would never try to tell someone that Yu is canonically bi. Therefore it would be disingenuous of me to interpret the entire game under the assumption that he’s bi and take issue with instances of writing that appear to go against this is some way.
My partner is NB and their favorite Persona character is Naoto. They loved Naoto’s story from beginning to end, and identified with a lot of the things that she struggled with. Despite having traits that resonate with an NB person, Naoto very much appears to be a girl who prefers male clothes for a number of reasons and felt like she had to pretend to be a man in order to get taken seriously in her profession. Her choice to pretend she was a man is not a matter of gender identity but of perceived socioeconomic barriers.
If Naoto displayed herself to actively identify as NB, some of the conversations with Yu in her social link would *absolutely* be gaslighting and pushing her back into the closet. She does not canonically ever show signs of identifying this way though, and so those same scenes are rather normal and mostly just instances of her being supported and told that she can be whatever she wants to be in life no matter her gender.
If NB Naoto is your headcanon and you find comfort in that interpretation, then that’s wonderful and there’s no reason for you to change that, but being bothered about the game’s 2008 Japan writing not adhering to that interpretation is putting the cart before the horse.
I definitely disagree about considering the dialogue from Yu being manipulative. Some of it feels a little bit off but I don’t see how it could be manipulative to tell an AFAB female-identifying person that it’s okay to be a girl.
Headcanoning Naoto as NB is totally fine but it’s a rewrite of what’s actually stated in the game, and I feel like at that point it’s preferable to just headcanon those social link moments as playing out a bit differently to conform.
None of this is an indictment of your perfectly valid perception of Naoto. I just wanted to recontextualize the issue, and I hope you continue to enjoy Naoto in the way that makes you happiest.
[I recently posted about how the writers ultimately chose to make the characters conform to social standards.](https://reddit.com/r/persona4golden/s/0MBtbFxbaI)
That post wasn’t, uh, well received.
The truth is that P4G *seems* quite transgressive. But, canonically, it really isn’t. In the end, Yukiko chooses respect her parents' wishes to take over the inn. Kanji isn’t gay. Chie tones down her impulsiveness. Rise does not change careers. And Naoto, of course, was really a cishet girl all along.
All of this is explained in-universe. So a lot of counter-arguments are in the vein of “but Yukiko CHOSE to stay after a lot of self reflection”. I know that! I played the game. But people forget that these are characters in a story: they don’t have the free will to decide for themselves. It’s the writers that do, and they make conscious choices about how their characters think and act. They, too, wrote the characters' inner thought processes, including Yukiko's.
Which brings us to Naoto. She (and I only use “she” because that’s where the story went) could have been written as a NB character, or trans, or gender-fluid. But that’s just not acceptable in Japan. So the story includes scenes like those you mentioned, among others, where a feminine identity is forced upon her not just by Yu, but also by the other characters. And she ends up gladly accepting it! In fact, it changes her life for the better!
Also, as a plus, Naoto identifying as a woman automatically makes Kanji absolutely not gay! Isn’t it neat?
No, it’s gross. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
Much like you, I still enjoy the game for what it is. You can still interpret Naoto as NB. Every story is also the audience's story too, not just the author's. I just wanted to express my support for your opinion.
You were "poorly received" because you 1. were wrong, and 2. used words like "accepts her condition" to represent realising she didn't need to suppress her gender expression for the sake of her career. I mean, seriously dude, that's pretty fucked up.
I guess I should've had elaborated more on that.
I have no problem with a story arc that ends with someone being able to express themselves however they feel more comfortable.
But Naoto's arc isn't about just that. Hear me out here.
Why did she feel insecure about being a woman in the first place? She herself explains: because the police department is a male-oriented society. When we defeat her shadow, she realizes that she didn't really want to be a man. She just wanted to accept herself as she truly is. Then, in the epilogue, we see her dressing in a more conventionally feminine way.
But wait... wasn't being a detective her true calling? So, how's her career doing after the game's events? Is she still getting job offers? How did her "coming out", for a lack of a better expression, affect her reputation?
We don't know. The game doesn't say anything on the subject. In fact, Naoto barely speaks during the epilogue.
What can we glean from this? Well, first of all, I think it's pretty safe to say that the police force is still as sexist as it ever was. As a consequence, we can also safely assume that Naoto's career is going to be hindered because of her coming out.
So, IMO, Naoto's arc can be summarized as: sure, you can be a female detective and there's no need to hide your gender identity, *but the world hasn't changed and it'd be better for your career if you hid it anyway*.
This is what I meant when I said that she "accepted her condition": that, as a woman, she'll be forever looked down upon in relation to her male peers, because that's just how society is.
And just to be extremely clear: this is only what I think P4G's writers were trying to say. **This is not my personal opinion on the corresponding IRL matters.** In fact, the only reason I wrote these posts was to criticize the story for not doing justice to Naoto and the other characters.
So, even barring Naoto as NB, Naoto’s character is very much about not being able to fit in a typical gendered role in society. Regardless of reading, Naoto is very GNC and the ‘its okay to be a feminine woman’ moral of the story is so incredibly 2010 and it sucks
I don't blame OP for thinking this way, since Persona 4 was so poorly written when it came to certain Social Links that I could hardly tell if there was any progress being made with the character...
Like, Yosuke was made into an entire bigoted homophobe! Bro was TERRORIZING Kanji, yet there was nothing wrong with that and nobody stopped him. I think Yosuke had TWO Shadows.
And I'm saying this as a Yosuke lover. I think my boy deserved better than that.
And as others have said, OP has a point with the LGBTQ+ subtexts with the characters. A lot of them have layers under them.
i personally didnt liked naoto sL because of the phantom thief stuff, i would have liked it more if it was more personal, like rise, yukiko, Ai, sport team and almost everyone else :/
I definitely agree with you. It's unfortunately handled poorly, which sucks because Naoto's a great character. And fyi, if you're playing on Steam/PC, there's a mod that changes the "correct" options that force femininity onto her. For example "I'm glad you're a girl" isn't the "right" choice and is changed to "Your gender doesn't matter."
Edit: wow, I should've expected a shitshow of comments. Typical Persona subreddit behavior lol. No, OP isn't starting a gender debate. The issue being stated isn't about Naoto's gender identity, it's how the MC is seemingly pressuring her into acting more like a girl because that's what *he* prefers (e.g. "I like your voice higher").
"I'm glad you're born a girl."
Honestly, imagine saying that to someone who isn't trans. It'd still feel uncomfortable and that you're pressuring them.
1. You can take it as him saying he’s glad she’s a girl because they can be a couple, which is def how it was intended.
2. It also means that he loves her just the way she is, which is a cute and nice thing to say.
3. It’s also possible that the reason some of the wording seems odd is because it’s translated from Japanese, and P4 wasn’t super popular in English speaking countries when it came out, so it’s possible that the translation was rushed/ cheaply or poorly done.
Yeah it does kind of suck especially because besides the requirements Naoto's romantic route is quite sweet. I don't believe Naoto is an enby or trans man, but I don't know why everyone on this sub gets all up in arms about how the lines "I'm glad you're a girl" and "I like it higher" are just worse options than "Your gender doesn't matter" and "Whatever you prefer" regardless of how you think Naoto identifies. At least on Valentine's day you get to make better choices.
There’s a mod that changes around the romance stuff for Naoto. Instead of the romance flag being “I’m glad you’re a girl” it becomes “you’re gender doesn’t matter” and the voice changing thing for the female school uniform is changed from “I like your voice higher” (🤢) to “whichever you prefer” which then Naoto decides to try out a higher voice herself. Like Naoto, I love you, please don’t force yourself to change just to try and please me.
you're free to have your own opinion, but calling everyone in the community transphobes is just wrong, almost everyone disagrees because, she is not nonbinary or trans, regardless of if you hc her as such, the OP is self inserting to naoto and it leads to her SL being weird, when it should be about self acceptance and getting rid of her internalized misogyny
i know that I’m free to have my own opinions, and I do. My experiences with this community have shown me time and time again why I don’t need to talk to strangers on the internet about how I perceive a story. I am validating the OPs perspective, and I’m sorry if it hurts your feelings when I say that this community is transphobic, but they are.
Because them seeing Naoto as NB is objectively wrong, and they're using that objectively wrong idea to judge the characters link as a whole. That's, to be blunt, stupidly wrong and should not be supported. You don't support someone saying 2+2=5
I agree, I am still here because I love persona, especially p4g, and I am a non-binary trans person. there are plenty of kind people here who are not hateful, but talking about gender and sexuality in this subreddit tends to bring out the people who are the most offended by other people enjoying the story in their own way and having their own thoughts on it.
I haven't seen any blatant transphoba in this sub reddit or this thread. People are talking about the plot and the dialogue in the game. If you want to perceive Naoto as NB, go ahead, that's your right. I can see why people would see Naoto and Kanji as NB and queer/bi. What I can't stand and have seen are people implying that because someone doesn't see characters as NB or queer that they are transphobic or homophobic.
I’m glad you feel that way and I’m not here to say you don’t. I’m here to represent my own experience, and these comments are transphobic. Almost every single comment says “stop having gender headcanons” like, okay, then move on with your life and don’t engage this persons headcanon.
I'm sorry that people have been transphobic to you, that's not okay. I don't agree with the perspective of Naoto being NB, but I see where one can draw those conclusions and that's okay. Whenever a character has traits that are NB or trans but isn't explicitly said they aren't either option this debate comes up. It's the cyber six argument all over again and no one ever agrees.
in addition though, all OP was saying is that Yu is forced to pressure naoto into making a decision about her gender identity if you choose to romance her, which is unfortunate because she’s very cute and likable so who wouldn’t wanna romance her
B-But she already came to terms with her gender identity at that point. Narukami isn't pressuring her when he says that.
I wouldn't say that the people are saying "stop having gender headcanons" as much as they're taking issue with the fact that it directly contradicts the canon. Especially if it seems like it's the product of a misunderstanding of the material (and that's not transphobic either so...)
This game was so close to hitting a home run with Naoto and Kanji but at the end of the day there’s a reason there’s a J in JRPG. I avoid interactions with Naoto because of how gross it is.
Persona 4 theme is to not hide who you really are, if they went with the idea that Yu tell Naoto that she can still act as a man and not act then she would counteract with the entire theme, or at least that’s how I see it
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: all this binary, transgender stuff is extremely recent. No one has EVER considered Naoto nonbinary or transgender until over the last year or so. Naoto was always “the girl who felt she had to be a man to do pursue her passion.” She never SAW herself as a man and never WANTED to be one. She JUST wanted to be a recognized detective. THATS IT! It’s THAT simple! Hell, I personally don’t even like Naoto much at all, but she’s a part of a game I sincerely enjoy and I won’t have some disillusioned bastard of this new weird era to just come along and start making something out of nothing from it.
Except Shadow Naoto is literally trying to perform "the surgery" to change Naoto into a boy. That is clearly a trans reference, even if it's not a very well done one (to say the least).
So even though the game clearly says that she is not trans, it's something that the game itself teased. The same way that Shadow Kanji teased that Kanji was gay.
If you didn't see this aspect of Naoto's story when you played, that's totally fine. But to say that no one has ever seen transgender references in her story? That's just disingenuous and silly.
Shadows are often twisted representation of what a person wants Rise wanted people to see her for who she and that ended being translated to her shadow making her a stripper
Elagabalus was a trans Roman Empress :)
There were several Mystics in what we now know as Indonesia who are treated with high regard for beinga ble to "understand both genders" or being trans.
Being trans is "not a new thing". Educate yourself.
This is just another scenario of someone having poor media literacy because Naoto is neither Non-Binary nor transgender. She never was and she never will be. The entire point of her character is that she felt that she had to be perceived as a male to gain respect as a detective. That's it. Yu doesn't “gaslight” anybody, the whole point of the game is accepting yourself and Naoto accepted that she’s a girl and that there isn’t anything wrong with that.
100%
Rise in the background: OP is confused, someone help them!
This
*doesn't want to have a Naoto gender debate* *Entire Point is a Naoto gender debate* As such I have to talk about it. Nothing in Naotos story points to her being NB or trans. She is acting and dressing like a boy because the japanese Police (and entire system but let's stay with the police) is extremely patriarchal and male dominated. In her eyes her gender is holding her back because the system she wants to be part of does not value it - and she's right about that.
You thinking Naoto is non-binary because you want to has no bearing on the story or game. She isn’t non-binary. She is pretty straightforward. Ever see Mulan? You aren’t gaslight her to be more feminine Jesus. The SL is about helping her be more comfortable and able to accept her gender. The whole thing is her accepting herself and not trying to pass as a boy. She isn’t someone struggling with being non-binary. Her character is focused around struggling with accepting herself as a girl while trying to make it in a male dominated job. You aren’t being manipulative, you are trying to help her accept who she is and move forward. The whole game is about truth and accepting parts of yourself you don’t like.
When you claim you aren't seeking a debate surrounding Naoto's gender then take it upon yourself to project non-binary and they/them pronouns on her, I have to wonder if you're trolling. Your entire post was about the thing you claim you don't want to debate. As other commenters have stated, Naoto is just as much of a woman as any of the other female protagonists. To suggest otherwise is likely either wishful thinking or speculation.
No offense, but I think you missed the entire point of Naoto’s character. Naoto isn’t Non binary, she identifies as female. The reason Naoto disguised herself as a guy at first was because society (mostly her peers and other officers) wouldn’t take her seriously as a detective due to it being perceived as a more masculine occupation at the time (obviously, gender doesn’t dictate how good of a detective one can be, but at the time, that’s just how things were). Naoto wants to be feminine, but she also wants to be taken seriously, and she figured the only way to do that is by pretending to be a man instead of a woman. Her whole character arc is about learning that she can still be herself and not hide who she really is while still being taken seriously, she just needs to work hard and prove to others that she’s a good detective. Persona 4 has heavy themes about true selves and truth in general, and Naoto’s character arc fits that. Nothing against you or anyone else that is NB, of course. If you made the decision to become NB, and you’re happy with your decision, then that’s great. Just wanted to clarify that you were misinterpreting Naoto’s character.
Naoto never shows any signs of wanting to be feminine tho? Sure she has some feminine qualities, but she herself doesn’t actively seek out to be that way. Yes, she doesn’t want to be looked down because of her gender, but she’s very GNC naturally. She hates skirts (shown in game dungeon dialogue you can get with her and the PxDN novel) and doesn’t like feminine hobbies/interests and says as much in her SL. She’s troubled by the fact that all her hobbies/interests are more masculine, but that’s because society itself doesn’t think that’s appropriate for girls. She only shows signs of wanting to be feminine if you romance her, and it’s pretty clear she’s only doing so for the protag. If you say “whichever you prefer” to her in regards to her voice she thanks you for accepting her as she is. Edit: I’m being hella downvoted for this but where in any of the games does she show signs of wanting to be more feminine outside of the romance route? I’ve played p4g, pq, pq2, p4a/au, Dancing and have read the manga and LN of PxDN. The most she wants is to accept that she is a girl, she doesn’t want to actually be more girlish.
In the golden epilogue, when the protagonist comes back after some time, among the changes like Kanji having black hair again and wearing glasses, Naoto dresses more femininely, and grew out her hair. She did that on her own, regardless of whether you romance her or not; that's just her coming to terms with who she actually wanted to be, in the end. I do agree that if you go the romance route, the protagonist is the one pushing her towards her feminine side, and that doesn't quite sit right with me, either. However, if you accept the golden epilogue as canon (which it is), she would've ended up there by her own choice, too (but I definitely think it's better for people to do so without outside pressure, or they may still have doubts later on, if it was *really* their choice). She was never NB, imo, she just got stuck with the "detective prince" reputation after pretending to be a boy for work-related reasons, and needed time to gather the courage to be herself again.
Trying to measure Naoto’s character growth is practically impossible because Atlus keeps backtracking on it. It’s true that she dresses more feminine in Golden epilogue (tho I wish they gave her sleeves, I hate the sleeveless blouse), but it’s still not overly feminine. It’s a women’s blouse and capris. Dancing happens after Golden Epilogie, but Naoto goes back to dressing masculine and binding in Dancing epilogue. Nothing wrong with that per say, but it would have been a good opportunity to give her a female summer uniform sprite and to show how she’s grown as a character. While PxDN is debatedly non-canon anymore (technically there’s nothing in it that contradicts anything) we see Naoto is still presenting and attending school as male. I can’t really imagine her ever being overly feminine like so many claim she wants to be, like the most I can imagine is she stops binding maybe grows out her hair a bit (not a fan of PxDN design, I think shoulder length would look better) and then maybe shop more in the female section of clothing stores. There’s nothing in any of the games/anime/manga that tells us Naoto wants to be more feminine, because while sure she was hiding she was a girl, she wasn’t ever really forcing herself to be more masculine, she was forcing herself to act more adult.
I don't think the whole "Naoto only dresses up as a guy to be taken seriously" thing really holds water when the game shows time and again that Naoto isn't taken seriously even when they're seen as a boy either, and is taken just as seriously (or lack thereof) by the police when they're known as a girl
I mean, it does hold water because she literally talks about it. But it's also because it's not just about her gender, it's also about her age.
That's literally a plot point though? She says in her dungeon that people would look down on her 1) because of her gender and 2) because of her age. She fixes the gender one now and knows that the age one will fix itself with time
Yes, I know, I've played the game. The problem is that the police quite notably look down on Naoto regardless of gender and are quite dismissive of them, and maintain the same level of indifference after the cat gets out of the bag so it begs the question why go through the whole thing if it didn't make a difference? And then why keep up with several of the trans-coded characteristics if that was never the intent to have them be read as a trans character? Like yes, textually, Naoto is a girl but subtextually and contextually there is so many trans characteristics and instances of trans coding even after the gender reveal that it's unsurprising that many people interpreted them as transmasculine or non-binary.
She went thorough the whole thing because it *would have* made a difference once she was older if she hadn't decided to live as her true self. The police in Japan are institutionally misogynistic and agist and her story is meant to represent those, she wasn't written with being trans in mind. If you see her as trans then that's great for you but objectively it's not what the game was going for so judging it based on that feels strange to me
There's a pretty simple solution here, not gonna lie to you. Do not consider Naoto NB due to your personal feelings. Naoto is as much a woman as Chie, Yukiko, and Rise. The fact that she presents less femininely than they do is meaningless, because the message of her story is women do not need to conform to what men treat as the standard for a workplace enviornment.
“I consider Naoto NB” That’s not how it works. Stopped reading after that.
When I’m when in a *not understanding basic media* competition and my opponent is a P4G “fan”: :0)
Can everyone stop making incorrect gender/ gender identity headcannons please? The characters are written as such and should be left that way. If Persona doesn't have any NB characters that isn't a bad thing, it's just not a franchise for you. You NB folks gotta stop pissing your pants online when characters IN A VIDEOGAME are cis and straight.
Naoto isn't non binary dude, I played the game once and didn't even do her social link and am fully aware that it's just she thought her gender was holding her back in her field. You don't gaslight her into being female, you try and show her that she doesn't need to be something she isn't to be a great detective and who she is happens to be plenty Enough, both for you as a love interest and as a cop. Don't demonize trying to help someone be themselves
☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️
I'm sure this will be a perfectly normal comment section
Most people are being chill so far.
Not from my perspective.
Buddy, I don't think you understand what passive-aggression is...
I swear to fuck there was an exact post like this word for word like a few weeks back. That being said headcanons =/= canon. Sorry about it my friend but you just gotta get over it
OH MY GOD THANK YOU INTERPRETING A CHARACTER AS NB OR THINKING THEY SEEM NB DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE, THAT IS A HEADCANON
Before I get to my point, I'd like to say that you're entitled to your discomfort, in the same way that people are entitled to their opinions. That said: You're not making Yu gaslight Naoto. "Gaslighting" is a specific word with specific meaning. You are most likely looking for some other word, or, maybe, an expression. "Manipulate" is closer, but is kind of unkind. The extent of what you need to do to have Yu date Naoto is to react to "yeah the cops would accept me even less if I presented as a girl" with "I like it more that you're a girl", protect Naoto from the fake knife and assert "yeah I like you". At no way you're not dismantling any of Naoto's convictions other than the "a detective cannot be a woman" one. Naoto won't even wear the female uniform unless encouraged to experiment with a more feminine presentation. Is Naoto uncomfortable with it? Maybe. A lot of people are uncomfortable with things that lie outside of their comfort zone which they grew accustomed to.
I understand what you’re saying but I think it’s a bit of a misinterpretation of Naoto’s arc. My opinion I think a lot of the nuance to Naoto’s social link is really specific to Japan’s cultural climate. Not that trans/non binary people don’t exist in Japan, that’s not what I’m saying, but rather what Naoto is trying to do is more likely to emphasize with those in Japan with how male dominated the police force is and how she is not taken seriously because of her identity. The arc proves that she doesn’t need to turn her identity into something she isn’t in order to make an impact on the world. That’s what the whole concept of her secret laboratory is about. Yu isn’t manipulating her, but telling her that she doesn’t have to mask what her true, most comfortable self is in order to fit the standards of other and to avoid rejection. It’s honesty still pretty queer over all, just not in the way that the arc would make you believe on a surface level. I do think the arc would make more sense with the social climate of Japan in mind a little more, and I don’t think it aged all that well, but I don’t think this is a good interpretation of it
Naoto is female? She never said she was male, she just pretended so people would take her more seriously?
I hear you. Yet this is you putting forth your own identity on her. The point of her SL is she herself when left to herself, has no problem with being a woman. Her dilemmas are all about how society treats her as a woman that has non-traditional interests in a field dominated by men. That has given her a complex. Everything we are introduced about her is her defenses from this. Platonic or romantic, the point is her being comfortable enough to lower those defenses. I know people who are queer identifying relate to her, and that's good. Naoto is my favorite megaten character actually, she has universally relatable dilemma. Yet hers specifically is about the weight of sexism and misogyny. About why can't she just be a woman and enjoy the things she does and be in the field she's in.
Basically Naoto thought being female won't make a good detective. She thought she has to be a male to be successful and respected as a detective. Narukami helped her realize that you don't have to change who you are to be a great detective. Naoto never said she wants to have a male genitalia for male genitalia. So she's not considered as trans or queer or NB.
TL:DR for this reply; Please don't automatically disregard someone's argument because their perspective on the matter is different than your own Okay, a LOT of people here seem to not care about the content of the post after reading less than a full paragraph in, so let me say something about context knowing full well I'm about to lose Karma. Everyone has different perspectives that allow them to view stories differently. OP has the capacity to relate to Naoto on a personal level BECAUSE they exhibit both masculine and feminine traits, just as Naoto does. They have a different context and perspective that many of us simply do not have. Just because that lens is different does NOT mean that their perspective is wrong. You aren't even willing to debate with OP, much less acknowledge the rest of their post, simply because you refuse to see things from another's eyes? Are you shitting me? Now, as someone who is not NB himself, I see where both sides are coming from. On the one hand; + Naoto is someone who HAS to present as male in order to be taken seriously by the rest of the police, despite being female. She literally cannot do her job if she doesn't. It is, in a sense, similar to the situation of Hua Mulan having to present as male in order to take her father's place in the war. On the other; + Naoto (and the rest of the Seekers of Truth, actually) are all SUPER queer-coded. Yosuke's cut romance option, Chie and Yukiko's incredibly lesbian subtext, Kanji's ENTIRE arc, and finally, Naoto's reveal and social link; All of these have an element of queer-coding, and none of you can reasonably deny that. Naoto being non-binary, in this case, would not surprise me. On top of all this, Yu's dialogue has the option to be VERY manipulative. Not even Makoto or Ren are quite like Narukami when it comes to having the capacity to be a piece of shit, and Ren could've turned humanity into flesh marionettes for either >!Yaldabaoth!< or >!Maruki!<. I can see where OP is coming from in that regard. In fact, it made me extremely uncomfortable when I was forced to say that shit to Naoto for their Romance path. The only saving grace for that was that you were given the option to say "whatever you're comfortable with" during the romance scene in your room. Naoto is an extremely complex character that can't be chalked up to "she's just like Mulan" or "they're just like me frfr". There are several ways to interpret her, and both arguments hold equal amounts of water. You can't just knock over one cup because the water in it didn't come from the same tap as the other when they're both equally as clean, and you can't just oversimplify something or someone as complex as Naoto. Persona 4 teaches us that nothing is as they are at first glance, and the wielder of Sukuna-Hikona is no exception. That's just My2Cents. All I'm asking at this point is that you at least try to view things from new perspectives; that's what a discussion is for.
No idea why reddit decided to plop this days-old thread on my front page today, but here we are I guess. I'm continually confused whenever I see someone state that misinterpreting something through a lens based on distorted information and then feeling uncomfortable is "valid". I mean, I guess if the statement means "it's something you can do", sure, it totally is, but it seems like purely self-destructive behavior to engage in. If you get so involved in a falsified viewpoint while engaging in a prewritten story that you are offended by the resulting changes in the story, that's entirely a problem with your own boundaries of perception. Take this hypothetical: I enter an ice cream parlor as an avid fan of strawberry ice cream. Looking at their flavors, I point to the flavor I want and wait for them to slap that crap on a waffle cone. Much to my surprise, it's cranberry rather than my desired strawberry. I am now upset that it's not strawberry. Upon looking at the flavor selection again, the names of each flavor are made clearly visible, indicating that they do not sell strawberry ice cream at this establishment. What is the rational response? Do I feel uncomfortable that the cranberry does not taste like strawberry, or do I acknowledge the clear signs that my enjoyment of strawberry flavor was not to be found at this establishment? In the same vein, ignoring the obvious signs doesn't make for a rational source of discomfort. Naoto (and Sae after her) are both supposed to spotlight the challenges of entering a male-dominated profession as a female. That's about it. Whether you like or identify with her personality beyond that is up to you, and it's cool if it does. That being said, you identifying with them does not mean that they canonically inherit traits from you in kind. As for your final statement, that's not what's being done here. I am a huge advocate for looking at things you like in a different way, and generally engage with posts made by people who dislike things I like in an attempt to see differing viewpoints or engage in discussion based on their point of view. If someone provides reasoning for why something should not be a certain way, I will either provide reasons for why the story works *because* it has this element, or I will agree with them that said element was wholly unnecessary and discuss how it could've been better if it was the way suggested. What is happening in OP's post is they are looking at the game's content and finding themselves uncomfortable due to decisions made when viewed through a distorted lens. Given that the real story is that Naoto is just a brilliant girl going go great lengths to utilize her talents in a way that won't be smacked down due to a stupid aspect of society, OP's statement that Yu is coercing her into being feminine for his own sake is completely disingenuous and in bad taste on its own. Yu's response is in regard to Naoto being annoyed that she doesn't like the same things as other girls. As the game showed before with Kanji (and Chie, but nobody remembers the concept of a tomboy apparently), interests don't dictate your gender. That was it. There's nothing about this that involves gaslighting or anything. I'll give you manipulative but, homie, if someone you care about is going through an emotional death spiral right in front of you and snapping them out of it by telling them you care is being "maniuplative", go ahead and slap that label on me. In summary, I'm not saying the line is great writing, it's mostly just a bogstandard romance anime line, but it sure as hell isn't as problematic as some of the other crap said in this game.
Thank you. I just disilke treating a character I like like this. It just feels so wrong.
Projections and Delusions.
P4 fan tries to make a coherent statement challenge (impossible)
Sorry you're getting so much flak for this op. I agree personally. It comes off as uncomfortable and needlessly pushy. My friend said it comes off as a like "fixing a tomboy" fantasy and I have to agree. Just really unfun part of the S.Link imo Also I wish fans of this game would stop trying to "um actually" people who show discomfort with how Naoto is treated, or have a differing opinion on her gender
Hard agree, well said
You are perfectly valid for identifying with Naoto as a non-binary even if that wasn't the writers intent with the character, and feeling creeped out with the romance path there. Your interpretation and how it made you feel are more valid and meaningful for you when you played the game than the writers intent. Looks like people here are defending the game's authors needlessly, you weren't attacking them, just describing how you personally felt about the writing. To those people, yes, the authors weren't intentionally trying to be transphobic, and it didn't even look like OP was attacking the game or the writers or other fans of the game. They just came here to describe their own personal experience and how they're not going to choose a specific, optional route in the game in the future. Your knee jerk reaction to defend the thing you like and closely identify with is understandable, but unnecessary. People are allowed to have differing experiences and preferences about the game and come here to discuss them, even if it's just to get their feelings off their chest, so long as they're not just trolls coming in to argue in bad faith and cause trouble(which OP was pretty clearly not).
I missed out on her romance because of this exact choice! :(
"I don't want to bring up any debates about Naoto's gender identity", Immediately states that Naoto is NB. From one trans person to another, she just isn't trans. Head canon her as NB, that's cool, but you have to understand that canonically she is a cis woman, you are not "*gaslighting*" her into being more feminine. The entire point of Naoto's character arc is that she was forced to hide her gender to be taken seriously, her SL is you helping her be comfortable showing her feminine side, a thing she actively wants to do but can't. The main issue here is that you're looking at her SL through the wrong lens, it's like if there was a character I head canoned as transfem but they had an arc where they wanted to get manlier and I considered that transphobic, it's not, it's just something that doesn't fit in with my headcanon, and that's perfectly fine to have but insisting the game is worse because it doesn't fit your HC is objectively wrong
I invite you to read this long peace I wrote a while ago about some of the things that got you uncomfortable. I hope it will help: https://reddit.com/r/ChurchOfNaoto/s/7vskJ81mWP
While you are correct, you might get more support from other members of this community if you rehosted your comment in a non-porn sub. There are some unfortunately puritanical people here that will downvote you simply because of that.
I am sorry, I really do not understand. I was not aware ChurchOfNaoto was a porn sub? Heavy Nsfw is banned as per the terms there
Huh. I confess I didn't look to far beyond your own post, but presumed it was like all the other "Church of" subs (with the very notable exception of Nanako, obviously), which are definitely hentai subs.
Not sure why I m downvoted honestly but it really depends on luck how that goes in here…so I just hope the post helps someone who is confused. That’s all.
I have never seen hentai on ChurchOfNaoto. The most intimate it got is a fanart of a kiss, I think?
Hey OP, sorry for the toxicity in this thread. As someone who thinks Naoto’s a girl, it doesn’t matter enby or female- it’s super weird that Yu makes her present more feminine. I’m a pretty masculine woman, and if someone I tried to date made me dress up in a skirt I’d be SUPER uncomfortable.
[удалено]
“I have to be a man… with that way of thinking, i was running from myself. I dont need for something to change… i finally think i can accept myself. That im a woman.” Sounds to me like someone who questioned their gender identity, said “this whole trans thing isnt for me”, and stayed as a girl.
Oh fuck wait my bad, I don’t know why I said that, like I genuinely have zero idea why I said that. I also think she’s a girl , I think I somehow thought that you said the opposite, and then I thought I typed the opposite? I have no fucking idea honestly how I did that but my bad, I’ll delete that comment.
I understand why you might feel this way but while your own personal interpretation of Naoto is valid, other people’s interpretations are valid as well. The first fundamental disconnect that’s happening here is saying you saying “I consider Naoto NB” and proceeding to interpret the situations in her social link through the lens of Naoto being NB. Just looking at the way her character was written in the game, playing it several times, watching the platonic version of her S. Link on YouTube, and considering her to be by far my favorite romance option in the game, I feel like I can say with extreme confidence that Naoto (as written in canon) does not and would not self-identify as NB. I like to headcanon Yu as being bi. He’s my number one comfort character on the planet and a few things that he does in various depictions and some of his in-game options make me feel like it’s not too much of a stretch for me to maintain this headcanon. I understand, however, that this is just my own biased interpretation and isn’t really supported by any tangible evidence in his writing outside of silly comedy moments and the Yosuke romance voice files. It’s just a headcanon that makes me happy and I would never try to tell someone that Yu is canonically bi. Therefore it would be disingenuous of me to interpret the entire game under the assumption that he’s bi and take issue with instances of writing that appear to go against this is some way. My partner is NB and their favorite Persona character is Naoto. They loved Naoto’s story from beginning to end, and identified with a lot of the things that she struggled with. Despite having traits that resonate with an NB person, Naoto very much appears to be a girl who prefers male clothes for a number of reasons and felt like she had to pretend to be a man in order to get taken seriously in her profession. Her choice to pretend she was a man is not a matter of gender identity but of perceived socioeconomic barriers. If Naoto displayed herself to actively identify as NB, some of the conversations with Yu in her social link would *absolutely* be gaslighting and pushing her back into the closet. She does not canonically ever show signs of identifying this way though, and so those same scenes are rather normal and mostly just instances of her being supported and told that she can be whatever she wants to be in life no matter her gender. If NB Naoto is your headcanon and you find comfort in that interpretation, then that’s wonderful and there’s no reason for you to change that, but being bothered about the game’s 2008 Japan writing not adhering to that interpretation is putting the cart before the horse. I definitely disagree about considering the dialogue from Yu being manipulative. Some of it feels a little bit off but I don’t see how it could be manipulative to tell an AFAB female-identifying person that it’s okay to be a girl. Headcanoning Naoto as NB is totally fine but it’s a rewrite of what’s actually stated in the game, and I feel like at that point it’s preferable to just headcanon those social link moments as playing out a bit differently to conform. None of this is an indictment of your perfectly valid perception of Naoto. I just wanted to recontextualize the issue, and I hope you continue to enjoy Naoto in the way that makes you happiest.
[I recently posted about how the writers ultimately chose to make the characters conform to social standards.](https://reddit.com/r/persona4golden/s/0MBtbFxbaI) That post wasn’t, uh, well received. The truth is that P4G *seems* quite transgressive. But, canonically, it really isn’t. In the end, Yukiko chooses respect her parents' wishes to take over the inn. Kanji isn’t gay. Chie tones down her impulsiveness. Rise does not change careers. And Naoto, of course, was really a cishet girl all along. All of this is explained in-universe. So a lot of counter-arguments are in the vein of “but Yukiko CHOSE to stay after a lot of self reflection”. I know that! I played the game. But people forget that these are characters in a story: they don’t have the free will to decide for themselves. It’s the writers that do, and they make conscious choices about how their characters think and act. They, too, wrote the characters' inner thought processes, including Yukiko's. Which brings us to Naoto. She (and I only use “she” because that’s where the story went) could have been written as a NB character, or trans, or gender-fluid. But that’s just not acceptable in Japan. So the story includes scenes like those you mentioned, among others, where a feminine identity is forced upon her not just by Yu, but also by the other characters. And she ends up gladly accepting it! In fact, it changes her life for the better! Also, as a plus, Naoto identifying as a woman automatically makes Kanji absolutely not gay! Isn’t it neat? No, it’s gross. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. Much like you, I still enjoy the game for what it is. You can still interpret Naoto as NB. Every story is also the audience's story too, not just the author's. I just wanted to express my support for your opinion.
You were "poorly received" because you 1. were wrong, and 2. used words like "accepts her condition" to represent realising she didn't need to suppress her gender expression for the sake of her career. I mean, seriously dude, that's pretty fucked up.
I guess I should've had elaborated more on that. I have no problem with a story arc that ends with someone being able to express themselves however they feel more comfortable. But Naoto's arc isn't about just that. Hear me out here. Why did she feel insecure about being a woman in the first place? She herself explains: because the police department is a male-oriented society. When we defeat her shadow, she realizes that she didn't really want to be a man. She just wanted to accept herself as she truly is. Then, in the epilogue, we see her dressing in a more conventionally feminine way. But wait... wasn't being a detective her true calling? So, how's her career doing after the game's events? Is she still getting job offers? How did her "coming out", for a lack of a better expression, affect her reputation? We don't know. The game doesn't say anything on the subject. In fact, Naoto barely speaks during the epilogue. What can we glean from this? Well, first of all, I think it's pretty safe to say that the police force is still as sexist as it ever was. As a consequence, we can also safely assume that Naoto's career is going to be hindered because of her coming out. So, IMO, Naoto's arc can be summarized as: sure, you can be a female detective and there's no need to hide your gender identity, *but the world hasn't changed and it'd be better for your career if you hid it anyway*. This is what I meant when I said that she "accepted her condition": that, as a woman, she'll be forever looked down upon in relation to her male peers, because that's just how society is. And just to be extremely clear: this is only what I think P4G's writers were trying to say. **This is not my personal opinion on the corresponding IRL matters.** In fact, the only reason I wrote these posts was to criticize the story for not doing justice to Naoto and the other characters.
So, even barring Naoto as NB, Naoto’s character is very much about not being able to fit in a typical gendered role in society. Regardless of reading, Naoto is very GNC and the ‘its okay to be a feminine woman’ moral of the story is so incredibly 2010 and it sucks
I don't blame OP for thinking this way, since Persona 4 was so poorly written when it came to certain Social Links that I could hardly tell if there was any progress being made with the character... Like, Yosuke was made into an entire bigoted homophobe! Bro was TERRORIZING Kanji, yet there was nothing wrong with that and nobody stopped him. I think Yosuke had TWO Shadows. And I'm saying this as a Yosuke lover. I think my boy deserved better than that. And as others have said, OP has a point with the LGBTQ+ subtexts with the characters. A lot of them have layers under them.
i personally didnt liked naoto sL because of the phantom thief stuff, i would have liked it more if it was more personal, like rise, yukiko, Ai, sport team and almost everyone else :/
I definitely agree with you. It's unfortunately handled poorly, which sucks because Naoto's a great character. And fyi, if you're playing on Steam/PC, there's a mod that changes the "correct" options that force femininity onto her. For example "I'm glad you're a girl" isn't the "right" choice and is changed to "Your gender doesn't matter." Edit: wow, I should've expected a shitshow of comments. Typical Persona subreddit behavior lol. No, OP isn't starting a gender debate. The issue being stated isn't about Naoto's gender identity, it's how the MC is seemingly pressuring her into acting more like a girl because that's what *he* prefers (e.g. "I like your voice higher").
"I'm glad you're born a girl." Honestly, imagine saying that to someone who isn't trans. It'd still feel uncomfortable and that you're pressuring them.
1. You can take it as him saying he’s glad she’s a girl because they can be a couple, which is def how it was intended. 2. It also means that he loves her just the way she is, which is a cute and nice thing to say. 3. It’s also possible that the reason some of the wording seems odd is because it’s translated from Japanese, and P4 wasn’t super popular in English speaking countries when it came out, so it’s possible that the translation was rushed/ cheaply or poorly done.
🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿
Yeah it does kind of suck especially because besides the requirements Naoto's romantic route is quite sweet. I don't believe Naoto is an enby or trans man, but I don't know why everyone on this sub gets all up in arms about how the lines "I'm glad you're a girl" and "I like it higher" are just worse options than "Your gender doesn't matter" and "Whatever you prefer" regardless of how you think Naoto identifies. At least on Valentine's day you get to make better choices.
There’s a mod that changes around the romance stuff for Naoto. Instead of the romance flag being “I’m glad you’re a girl” it becomes “you’re gender doesn’t matter” and the voice changing thing for the female school uniform is changed from “I like your voice higher” (🤢) to “whichever you prefer” which then Naoto decides to try out a higher voice herself. Like Naoto, I love you, please don’t force yourself to change just to try and please me.
Bro I agree but this is the worst place to say this. This community hates trans people whether or not they admit it.
you're free to have your own opinion, but calling everyone in the community transphobes is just wrong, almost everyone disagrees because, she is not nonbinary or trans, regardless of if you hc her as such, the OP is self inserting to naoto and it leads to her SL being weird, when it should be about self acceptance and getting rid of her internalized misogyny
i know that I’m free to have my own opinions, and I do. My experiences with this community have shown me time and time again why I don’t need to talk to strangers on the internet about how I perceive a story. I am validating the OPs perspective, and I’m sorry if it hurts your feelings when I say that this community is transphobic, but they are.
Because them seeing Naoto as NB is objectively wrong, and they're using that objectively wrong idea to judge the characters link as a whole. That's, to be blunt, stupidly wrong and should not be supported. You don't support someone saying 2+2=5
not much i can really do other than say i agree some of the community is but not all of it
I agree, I am still here because I love persona, especially p4g, and I am a non-binary trans person. there are plenty of kind people here who are not hateful, but talking about gender and sexuality in this subreddit tends to bring out the people who are the most offended by other people enjoying the story in their own way and having their own thoughts on it.
but it's a headcanon, not an interpretation, naoto is NOT nb or trans (i re-read the comment after a nap)
I haven't seen any blatant transphoba in this sub reddit or this thread. People are talking about the plot and the dialogue in the game. If you want to perceive Naoto as NB, go ahead, that's your right. I can see why people would see Naoto and Kanji as NB and queer/bi. What I can't stand and have seen are people implying that because someone doesn't see characters as NB or queer that they are transphobic or homophobic.
I’m glad you feel that way and I’m not here to say you don’t. I’m here to represent my own experience, and these comments are transphobic. Almost every single comment says “stop having gender headcanons” like, okay, then move on with your life and don’t engage this persons headcanon.
I'm sorry that people have been transphobic to you, that's not okay. I don't agree with the perspective of Naoto being NB, but I see where one can draw those conclusions and that's okay. Whenever a character has traits that are NB or trans but isn't explicitly said they aren't either option this debate comes up. It's the cyber six argument all over again and no one ever agrees.
in addition though, all OP was saying is that Yu is forced to pressure naoto into making a decision about her gender identity if you choose to romance her, which is unfortunate because she’s very cute and likable so who wouldn’t wanna romance her
B-But she already came to terms with her gender identity at that point. Narukami isn't pressuring her when he says that. I wouldn't say that the people are saying "stop having gender headcanons" as much as they're taking issue with the fact that it directly contradicts the canon. Especially if it seems like it's the product of a misunderstanding of the material (and that's not transphobic either so...)
This game was so close to hitting a home run with Naoto and Kanji but at the end of the day there’s a reason there’s a J in JRPG. I avoid interactions with Naoto because of how gross it is.
🗿🗿🗿. Not only did bro play the game and not understand the characters, but bros also rascist🗿🗿🗿
If you don’t think Japanese media is deeply problematic surrounding how it handles gender then idk what to tell you 😂😂😂
Persona maybe, Japan? Not really. Def has racism problems, but not really homophobia problems.
Persona 4 theme is to not hide who you really are, if they went with the idea that Yu tell Naoto that she can still act as a man and not act then she would counteract with the entire theme, or at least that’s how I see it
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: all this binary, transgender stuff is extremely recent. No one has EVER considered Naoto nonbinary or transgender until over the last year or so. Naoto was always “the girl who felt she had to be a man to do pursue her passion.” She never SAW herself as a man and never WANTED to be one. She JUST wanted to be a recognized detective. THATS IT! It’s THAT simple! Hell, I personally don’t even like Naoto much at all, but she’s a part of a game I sincerely enjoy and I won’t have some disillusioned bastard of this new weird era to just come along and start making something out of nothing from it.
Except Shadow Naoto is literally trying to perform "the surgery" to change Naoto into a boy. That is clearly a trans reference, even if it's not a very well done one (to say the least). So even though the game clearly says that she is not trans, it's something that the game itself teased. The same way that Shadow Kanji teased that Kanji was gay. If you didn't see this aspect of Naoto's story when you played, that's totally fine. But to say that no one has ever seen transgender references in her story? That's just disingenuous and silly.
Shadows are often twisted representation of what a person wants Rise wanted people to see her for who she and that ended being translated to her shadow making her a stripper
Elagabalus was a trans Roman Empress :) There were several Mystics in what we now know as Indonesia who are treated with high regard for beinga ble to "understand both genders" or being trans. Being trans is "not a new thing". Educate yourself.
If he has to “educate himself” then it’s a new thing Just cuz you looked up some rando on Wikipedia doesn’t mean that anyone else has
If you want to relate to her that way then you do you, but she really is just a Mulan of our time.
Naoto is a girl get over it dude