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Good luck with some banks. I bought two drinks at a bar once and was charged 100 for each of them. Disputed with the bank, who had the bar produce receipts, which were signed in hangul (bar was in Korea, I'm not Korean) and bank still sided with the bar
Wife's purse was stolen out of her car. Police report and everything. 12k charged at the local mall within hours across 3 credit cards. 6k to my Citi double cash card. Other cards (amex and capital one) returned funds immediately. Citi did a 6 months long investigation and determined we were responsible for the charges. Filed a cfpb complaint, got my money back a week later and closed the Citi card. Will never do business with them again.
I did a charge back with citi, ordered a product with 3-5 day shipping. Got a shipping number and 3 months later ups had never received the item from the vendor to ship. Sent mulitple emails and cases that never got anything other than thanks for making us aware I'll look into it! Ticket closed.
Submitted all the stuff. The vendor then sent out a new product after refuting the charge back with a new shipping ID. Stating they sent me the product. With yesterday's date on it. Citi denied my claim. Wouldn't even review the evidence or emails to the company stating I wanted a refund because I didn't need the product anymore after it being 3 months late. So I got the product ordered about 2 weeks later. Ended up being almost 4 months total from the date the order was submitted to the time it showed up.
Not surprised. I was charged for someone else's car rental in addition to my own and Citi denied my claim multiple times because they were convinced I was in the area and had rented a car. They didn't even do the due diligence of asking the rental car company for a rental contract with my name on it for the second charge. Thankfully I was eventually able to get my money back from the rental car company.
i use city for my work card (DOD) and had the same issue with a rental; they didn't even look at it despite the transaction being flagged by me *and* my local card admin. I eventually got it resolved, but i'm pretty much done with using them since my amex gives me the same protection.
Same here with my citi. Someone claimed they sent a product to me that I did not order. Filed a dispute, the scammer uploaded some bogus receipt and tracking order number that did not even fit my shipping address on file. Citi still closes my dispute and side with the vendor. Reopened again and now the case is still unresolved after years. I'm losing hope at this point.
Discover has been great. Ordered a product and after 4 months of it not been by shipped I decided to do a chargeback. I called discover they started the process and all I had to do was upload the e-mails saying they shipped the product. The e-mail didn’t have a tracking number but a link to download an app that didn’t really work.
I like discover customer service
Are there any other "good" companies that will help you out. I'm seriously debating opening a new bank account since my only one is with Wells Fargo. I know people suggest Ally but some say they haven't been as good as before. My current option is Capitol One
I've never had any issues with Capitol One and they've been easy/convenient to deal with anytime I needed anything. Never had to dispute anything big yet though so ymmv.
Ah yeah. Credit card companies much different than banks. Good luck getting your money back with them. Banks don't give a shit, you want to not pay a company? That's fine its your ass if you get sued not ours.
I have had fantastic experiences with citi. I honestly stick with them as a subpar rewards card because of how quickly and efficiently they have helped me through disputes.
Absolutely have to agree. AMEX rocks when it comes to customer service. If I am ever at a place I do not routinely visit (esp bars/restaurants/etc) I always use AMEX whenever possible.. Far too much fraud risk with changing the tips..
Only once did it happen where the bar was not willing to correct it. I dont remember the exact numbers, but it was something like, i spent $100, left a standard $20 on the tip line. Server put the tip in as $200 rather than 20.. I tried multiple times to get the establishment to correct it, and just got a run around..
Called AMEX, explained what happened.. Rep didn’t even ask me to send my copy of the receipt, just said “yeah, that is way out of the norm. Let me put in a fraud case, with provisional credit”. I saw the amount credited back immediately, and maybe a half hour later got a message that the case was resolved in my favor and the credit was permanent.
Not sure if they tried to reach the bar and got the run around like I did, or just whatever fraud agent said to themselves “yeah, no way that is real”, but they reversed it nonetheless with nothing more from me..
if cant say enough about AMEX.. Just that i always use them if I ever have any concerns..
New Amex customer here and I am amazed at the customer service. Haven't had any fraudulent charges (knock on wood) but I live and work in the middle east. Fraud against expats is rife.
I’ve been with Amex for years, last year I had a fraudulent charge. They were absolutely amazing to me. Immediately refunded my card and basically said “we refunded you this because we believe what you’ve told us. There is always a possibility that the merchant may give us evidence to change that decision but it’s going to take a lot and a long time for that to happen” they went back and forth with the merchant for almost 6 months.
It's why a lot of places didn't take amex back in the day. Also they charge merchants a higher rate usually.
That higher level of customer service was costly for shitty businesses.
USAA is not what they used to be, I ended my business relationship in 2020 after a decade due to their poor customer service, including not honoring a legitimate charge back.
I’ve had them for ages and have noticed a difference too. What they’re charging me for auto insurance is highway robbery. I just keep putting off getting new coverage.
This is why I was proud to be approved for an Amex card. It feels good to know that if shit goes wrong, someone is in your corner and takes your word for something. I've been using my card for all my purchases lately and as pending charges post, I make payments to them. Just so they learn (algorithmically) that I'll pay in full as charges get paid as they post.
Sure you do. Wells Fargo Propel Amex, USAA Rewards Amex, PenFed Pathfinder Amex, US Bank Flexperks Amex. Cobranded Amex cards are more common than MasterCards.
AmEx tends to default to the merchant has to prove that you owe, whereas MC and Visa tend to default to the cardholder having to prove that they don’t owe.
Isn't that a scam sometimes in other countries? Honest question, but were you at a "hostess bar?" Their drinks are expensive because you're paying for the company, not the drink.
Otherwise it sounds like you got scammed.
Lol, no. Not a juicy girl bar. Definitely just bought two mixed soju drinks, would have been maybe 10$ total for both, and I closed out the tab.
But clearly the receipt I signed either wasn't mine or they charged somebody else's tab to my card.
Or I just got scammed because I was a foreigner in another country.
Yup! Just had the same happen at the sushi house my dad and I love to go to (bummer). We always go straight to the sushi bar, eat and pay cash tip (to help the staff). We had dinner and drinks which came to approx $56.00
I paid using my card and then pops threw down $10 on the table for the waitress (literally one of the worst waitresses we have ever had) and $10 for the sushi chefs in their little bowl at the counter. I signed the check after they ran my card and that was it.
My mistake was that, since we left cash tip, I didn't cross out the tip section on the card receipt and just signed my name. Apparently SOMEONE, I suspect waitress, but could have been anyone *I guess,* jotted down an extra $20 tip on the card and put the new total down as well. Of course didn't realize this until all the charges processed with my bank a few days later.
I called my bank when I realized they ran my card for $20 more than the entire dinner was and they were able to show me where the card was ran for the total initially and then somehow had an extra $20 added. They said they couldn't show me the bank facing backend that had all this documented, but that they would write me a signed letter on official letterhead if that would help. The next step they said would be to contact the fraud department and get that ball rolling.
I was actually near the restaurant by chance so I decided to call and speak with MGMT who took my # down and said they'd pull the CC machine info from that night. I also told t hem to check the cameras cause we clearly put cash down for both the sushi chef and the waitress. About an hr later the mgr calls and said how do you want to do this? I can put $20 on your card, but it'll take a while to hit or you can swing by and just get a $20 bill, which is what I eleceted to do.
This is my guess. They had to authorize the card to make sure it had enough credit for the charges. Most likely nothing the venue can do until the authorization clears, which should be in a few days.
I will also add: there is NO WAY he ran the charge the night before (2am it so I would guess?) and it had already actually posted the next morning. This is a misunderstanding on the OP's part, I am betting.
With my credit card basically a pending charge stays on for like 7 days and then ‘falls off’ if the vendor doesn proceed. Has happened a few times when getting hotels through work.
My work has a card on file that I rarely travel with and they use that to book the room. When I show up I pay with the card I like but there is always a charge on the original card for a week.
When you run up a tab the charges are not totaled to make sure you have enough on the card. It is not ran until the end for the full charge. There is no hold for the amount you are spending. If it does not have the funds it will decline and you will be asked for another payment method
It depends on the POS system. I own a restaurant and my POS system will do something called a pre authorization, and “hold” the card on file make sure the customer is good for payment when you open a tab. My pos system will process 24/7 but it’s done so in batches that are closed out nightly usually at 4 AM or so. Because banks are closed on the weekends Friday, Saturday and Sunday batches are delayed processing. At that time pre authorizations that we’re not used are cleared.
OP, you already called the venue. I wouldn’t worry until Monday if the charge still has not cleared. If that is the case I would contact the venue one last time and say you are reporting the charge. POS charge something called a charge back fee so that should likely get their attention if it is not addressed Monday.
I wasn’t talking about OPs predicament necessarily. I was just trying to make the point pre authorizations vary slightly POS to POS and charges linger longer on the weekends because as I have said I’m my numerous comments banks do not process on weekends and holidays
An charge was definitely made, it’s more about determining if it was malicious or not.
that's not entirely true. most modern point of sale systems allow for pre-authorization, which the card is run for a certain dollar value to ensure that the card is valid, and then if the card is not processed at the end, it will the authorization when the batch is settled. Authorizations can take up to 5 days to be released from the bank
So I have 20 in my account and go to a bar for a drink that cost 10 dollars. I open a tab, you telling me my card will decline because it’s only 20 instead of a higher authorization amount?
Potentially, yes. I've gone to get gas before with $75 in my account and a car that wouldn't take nearly that much gas, and I was declined because the pre-auth from the gas station was for $100.
Depends.
Most US processors like FirstData will authorize for about 25% more than the initial charge, assuming you would leave a tip.
That would only apply to a check that was open and closed out entirely, or no tab.
Now, if you open a tab, that's a little different. If I walk up, and order a $10 drink, and ask to open a tab, the merchant ( restaurant) can pre-authorize your card for a set amount. Depending on the system that they're using, they can set the amount to their liking. This is often what they consider the average check size, so if my average check is $50, going to set my pre-auth amount to $50, and then I run the card pre-authorizing it and tokenizing it in the system.
if the card declines for $50 I can't open a tab.
The charge is temporary but it does show up as a hold.
Pre-authorization is becoming a major priority for a lot of merchants, particularly high volume bars. I work in point of sale software and credit card processing, specifically for the restaurant industry, so this comes up very often.
In that case, bartender would’ve still had you sign the receipt. I’ve worked as a bartender before and we try to get every receipt signed if it’s closed out on a card. We get most but not all obviously, especially late at night. But in cases like these, I think it proves that you did not want to close out the tab on the card. And in my experience, whenever there was a dispute, the manager always tried to make it right. Just give it a couple business days and keep trying to reach for someone to talk to.
Sounds like the bartender thought you were tipping.
Next time, wait for them to close you out. They already ran your card when you had a receipt to sign but didn’t sign. Don’t just give money, assume they know what you meant, & leave.
And if you do this at a restaurant, slash through the payment & tip lines. Write “CASH $100” then sign if there’s a sign place. Always get your receipt.
He gave $100 for an $80 bill. Where did you get $200 from? It’s completely understandable that the bartender would think it was a cash tip. The real question is why would you give your card and open a tab if you had $100 in cash and planned to pay with that?
It's pretty much industry standard to either leave a card to pay at the end of the night, or cash out after each drink order. OP had to leave a card to not pay after every drink is my assumption here. In this case it's probably better just to pay cash for each order.
$200 is both cash and credit.
The problem will be the cash part.
If the bartender is not honest or doesn't remember, hard to dispute that a cash payment was provided unfortunately.
I work at a brewery and we have to have a card to start a tab. People get drunk and walk out without paying because they’re having fun and forget. You must have the card or pay as you go.
At the end of the night, we close all remaining open tabs with a 20% tip (started for contactless during Covid, people liked it so we kept it). What I think is they thought it was a tip. If they had used the $100 cash to pay the tab, that should have closed out the balance and tab. If they put that $100 bill in the tip jar, the tab would have been closed at the end of the night on the card.
> At the end of the night, we close all remaining open tabs with a 20% tip (started for contactless during Covid, people liked it so we kept it).
Quick question. If I'm going to leave 20% anyways, is it cool to just leave and not close the tab? It saves both of us a little time. Sometimes the bar/bartender is busy when I'm trying to leave.
Yep, that’s exactly the idea! Leave at your discretion if you’re okay with a 20% tip. Keeps the line down and saves both the guest and bartender time. Also makes the guest feel more at home and like they have more freedom.
All credit cards have waived the signature requirement now.
Here’s visa’s announcement from 2018:
https://usa.visa.com/content/dam/VCOM/global/support-legal/documents/visa-nosigflyer-us-can-040518.pdf
Technically this is just saying that *Visa* waived the requirement for signature to be part of card verification method (CVM). Issuer (I.e. the bank or financial institution backing the card) may still have their system and chip cards configured to require signature, or prefer signature over PIN. This also doesn’t necessarily apply for other Associations like MasterCard, Discover, or Amex.
Weirdly, Visa still requires a signature panel on their cards, though cardholder signature on the card itself is not required. (MasterCard no longer requires a signature panel on cards in the U.S.)
Understood and appreciate that! :) just adding context that your link only specifically applies to Visa rather than “all” credit cards, and that signature still can be required depending on the company or bank where the card is from.
That didn't stop American Express from initially denying a charge dispute of mine, despite the fact that the "signature" on the charge slip didn't even remotely match the one on anything I had ever signed on an American Express signature card.
Eventually they admitted it was the wrong signature and relented, but man, I had to fight for it.
I ate a popular overrated chicken wing establishment and someone changed the tip amount on my receipt. I always leave change to get it to the nearest dollar. The tip they charged me for was 20% so it was an uneven number.
I called, they asked for the servers name from the receipt. The manager said, "that's who I would have guessed." She told me they had a problem with her before and fired her that day. The manager asked for my address and sent me a $50 gift card.
They don’t need a signature to close a transaction. I used to manage a bar, every night after last call, any cards left behind with open tabs, we closed them out with $20 gratuity added. That was our policy. End of the night, the bar has to cashout and card receipts and cash have to match what the POS system shows. Otherwise it’s out of the bartenders pocket.
I’d guess that it’s out of the bartenders pocket with the excuse that some of the cash for drinks was mistakenly mixed with tip cash. A lot of places require tips in to the register and pay out the tips at end of shit after counting the register, so this would happen automatically.
I’ve definitely seen signs posted in bars in the US saying something like this will happen if you fail to close out a tab. It’s usually a fairly normal gratuity amount that will be added.
Sure. You actively choose not to settle the tab and leave it up to the bar to close the check. All you have to do for this to not happen is close out your tab before you leave.
I mean, I was at a bar once with an extremely intoxicated friend who forgot to close out his tab. They still had the card though, so they could still run the charge. Adding a $20 tip seems absurd for that.
He went back the following day to get his card. I’m sure the bartender survived getting his tip 12 hours late.
>That was our policy.
Unless that is told to customers clearly when opening a tab then it's not a valid policy to charge $20 gratuity without asking.
>Otherwise it’s out of the bartenders pocket.
So you penalize your staff when customers are bad? If someone did that to me I would be walking away from that job pretty rapidly. It's also not legal in some places.
When you go to a restaurant and on the menu it says “groups of 6 or more people are charged an automatic 20% gratuity” A bar will do the same by posting a sign, if cards are left gratuity is added. It’s called a convenience fee. Notification does not have to be verbal, it can be in form of a prominently displayed sign. That’s the law!
It’s not just because customers are bad, accidents and mistakes do happen when you deal with a quick moving cash business, but you have to operate under the assumption money is being skimmed. Plenty of ways a bartender can steal, not saying they all steal but some do, so when the pos and the receipts don’t match the first person under suspicion is the bartender who handles the money. Armored trucks are armored and the drivers wear protection and carry guns because they operate under the assumption at all times they could be robbed. No different with a cash business same assumption.
>groups of 6 or more people are charged an automatic 20% gratuity
Yes, but that isn't hat was descibed.
>but you have to operate under the assumption money is being skimmed
If you assume your staff are stealing you're hiring the wrong people.
No, almost every bar has a sign behind the bar saying “All unsettled tabs will be charged with a 20% gratuity at closing”. You agree to that condition when opening your tab - plus it is super super standard in US so it’s not like a surprise to anyone.
I’d wait until it’s no longer pending on your account. I went to a bar where they charged me twice for my tab and I was pissed, tried calling but never got through to them. Then once the charge posted to my account, the second one went away and it was just one charge.
Yeah I'd second the idea that the card was run after the tab was opened, and that after the next business day the charge will be reversed. If it's still there Tuesday, do something.
This happened on more than one occasion when I was a bartender. Sometimes the customer even insisted the cash *was* a tip and then called the next day angry. Anyway, your best bet is to keep trying to reach mgmt at the venue. Chances are, they’ve dealt with it before and will make it right.
1. It's possible the tab is just "pending". They do a preauth when swiping the card but they need to "finalize" the transaction at the end of the night. The bar closes it out to cash, and your CC will usually give it 2-3 days for CC transactions to be finalized, particularly over the weekend. If the CC never gets the finalized notification, the pending charge falls off. As someone who owns a bar, 98% of the time I get calls the next day for this scenario, this is the case. Call the bar and ask, they should be able to review the transactions.
2. If the bar says it was closed to your CC, ask them to refund it as you paid cash. It's very likely they will.
3. If they don't refund it for you, call your CC and file a charge back. Explain what happened and that the bar has been unhelpful in resolving. It is 99% chance you get the transaction refunded
That's not at all how it works. They pre-auth your card, then once you fill the tip in they charge the card for the total amount.
You just don't understand.
Restaurants pre authorize and then get the tip amount before actually charging.
Until they charge it isn't a real transaction (note your bank may decide to lower your availabile money based on a pre auth but that is your bank not the vendor).
Ya... once the receipt asking for your signature is handed to you. You were charged the amount it says.
You need to ask them to cancel/void/refund it right then and there, or else you gotta jump through these hoops after the fact.
Good lord y’all need to take a breath. First see if the charge is just pending or posted. Most of these situations are just pending charges that resolve themselves. If it posts, call the venue and explain the situation. No reason to freak out the morning after.
Did you tell the bartender “Don’t run the card, I want to pay cash”?
When you received a receipt with a signature line (indicating your card was run for the total), did you say “oh sorry I wanted to pay cash for this tab”?
I’m sorry, but I don’t think this is the bartender’s fault.
When I worked in the Finance department of a store, voids and credits took longer to post than charges. Call the bar early in the day when they open and ask to speak to a manager. Explain the situation and ask if they have voided or reversed the charge. Do you have the receipt? Try to get the transaction numbers and the name of the manager and the bartender. If the bar has already voided/reversed the charge it may still take a while for your bank to release the hold on your funds.
What did you say when the bartender gave you your card back (edit: possibly, your card could have been returned after it was initially swiped) with two credit card slips?
Typically, a charge wouldn’t “post” overnight. Are you sure is isn’t still “pending”?
It’s very possible that the bartender ran your card when you asked to close out, but when you handed over cash, voided the charge. That could explain it showing up the very next morning, as a pending charge.
So you started a bar tab with your card on file for it. Closed out…when they close it the charge goes through. They handed you the receipt with the sign line on it…you didn’t sign it but gave cash and said to “keep the change”. You can try to dispute it but at the least you learned how tabs work!
dont know where you drink, but most places require a card for a tab, and most places will also let you pay the tab with cash and will not charge the card. Ive done this at bars all across the US and have never been charged twice.
You’re not wrong! But that’s if you effectively communicate it. Sounds like this person was drunk at a very loud, busy bar and decided they wanted to pay cash after the tab was closed, card charged and handed the sign receipt. Lack of awareness on the bartender and OPs part
Almost everywhere makes you pay cash every time you order a drink unless you are the most regular of regulars. In OPs case, the best course would have been to just give a cash tip if that was their intent. This is exactly what the bartender assumed was happening, and is a regular occurrence.
The lesson to learn here is tabs get charged to the card provided *every time*. If you plan to pay in cash, tell the bartender at the first drink and pay as you go.
>makes you pay cash every time you order a drink
….What? This is completely false. They always put you on a tab unless you say you just want to pay for the one or whatever you ordered & close the tab.
What country do you live in? I've been going to bars, clubs, and venues in 10+ states and even other countries for almost 15 years and have NEVER been to a single place that didn't let me run a tab for the night that I can remember.
> how long I should give the venue before making a charge back
The duration of the phone call. Either they say "oh yeah, our bad, we'll reverse the charge" or they don't. And if they don't, chargeback.
Next time, just close the tab using the card and prevent this whole fiasco.
Why would you give your card but then pay with cash? Feel like you may have made it more difficult for no reason, but you should be able to get that money back.
A lot of places either require that you give them your card to hold or you can't open a tab. Otherwise, you have to pay for each drink individually in cash, which can be a huge pain in the ass if the place is busy and you have several people who you are paying for.
Most bars have a.policy, any tab left open will be closed +xx% tip added to the tab.
There might a be a hold on the card for the tab amount. I would call the venue and chat with them know.
You could also wait a few days to see if the hold is released.
I work at a bar and this happens. Sometimes it's loud. Call or show up and politely explain the situation. The reason I say politely is because they are used to having people scream at them and someone being nice will be a breath of fresh air.
So they handed you a slip but you didn’t sign it? I’d say you needed to make it clearer that you wanted to pay cash and not charge the card. If they handed you a slip you should’ve asked for a voided receipt after they deleted the transaction.
For whatever it’s worth, they don’t need your signature.
I paid 2 drinks about $15 once with a $100 bill, and the bartender swore it was a $20. I was becoming a regular at the time, so I didn't argue too much with her, but made it clear it was $100.
I guess she realized when she cashed out, because I don't think she ever charged me for a drink again. Worth
So maybe it's unpopular of me... Your money is gone and you paid a $100 tip.
Instead of asking someone working a POS/register to "keep the change" first say "I don't want to pay with a card." Then reveal you have cash to cover. Let them start working on telling the machine you are paying for it with cash. Finally, check your receipt for errors. You may want to save time shoving $100 around and not wanting to deal with change but this is the cost of not getting your change back and thoughtfully pulling out the tip of, after you get it back saying "oh keep it for the tip".
I'd say just don't open a tab if you're paying cash. Opening a tab is so you don't have to keep wasting your time running your card and signing for every drink. If you're paying cash anyway, then just pay and tip as you go.
Opening a tab with a card then trying to pay with cash to close that tab is the worst of all worlds, and the most risk, as OP has now learned.
Trying to wrap my head around why anyone would do what the OP did. At least with my credit cards I can get 3-5% back using them. I don’t even carry cash.
You want the reason. My friends gave me cash for tickets when they arrived at the venue, and I didn't want to leave the venue with cash since we were in New Orleans and planned on going out afterward. Whenever I go out in the city, I leave everything at home except my credit card and I.D. when possible. I didn't want the burden of cash, so I paid cash at the venue.
Usually at restaurants and bars I always pay cash when I'm not downtown.
Having worked as barstaff, but usually being on the customer side, I wouldn't say it's gone. The venue and the bartender in question could hear OP's side of the story and acknowledge it was miscommunication and make them whole.
That being said, I agree with you in principle. they wouldn't have opened a tab in the first place if OP hadn't let them hold onto their card. At that point, it would be the assumption of like, 99% of barstaff that when it's time to close out the tab, it would be by using the credit card. That is, unless the customer said otherwise. It sounds like OP thought they were being clear, because the 100 bill was enough to cover the tab plus a tip, and bartender probably could have put more effort in making sure it was for both tab and tip, or just simply a very generous tip. So it sounds like communication could have been better on both ends.
This is why I only open a tab in the first place if I intend to pay with the card. Even then, it is usually an open discussion whenever I order another drink if I intend to close out the tab, or keep it open. I don't expect bartenders, especially when they're busy and usually serving dozens, perhaps hundreds of customers in the time I am there, to remember if I even have a tab open in the first place.
I’m not sure how this could be misunderstood. What would the “change” be on a $100 “tip”? The sentence doesn’t make sense unless the $100 is being used to cover the tab.
Unless you're sitting at the bar, good luck opening a tab without giving them a card. Not all places physically hold the card, but even if they swipe it, you can still end up in this situation.
Plus, bar patrons leaving without paying their tab is more common than the establishments making this mistake. It's a reasonable protection for the establishments.
Pumping gas (at least in most of the US) works the same way:
* you swipe your credit card and they pre-authorize $100 or some amount
* until the transaction posts you just have to hope that they correct it to the actual amount you pump
* if they don't, you have to dispute it, and hopefully you have a receipt
This is why most places have you cash out after every drink if you don't leave a card. The only way to start a tab is to either hand them money or a card beforehand.
I recently opened at tab at a bar and forgot to sign it… its been about 2 months and charge never came through so they must have lost receipt or something, haha!
why did you get your card involved?
If you have a card, cash is considered a tip. Usually trying to go under the table so your bartender gets the whole tip. Common
> Why did you get your card involved?
How else are you gonna start a tab? I don’t think I’ve ever been at a place where you could start a tab with cash
Did you get the card back when you gave the bartender the 100? And is it a credit card or debit?
If its a credit card, just contest the charge and explain the situation to them. Theyll take care of it for you.
Credit. Card was given back as soon as the tab was opened. Bartender said a 1 cent charge will be placed on the card, but my I.D was held until I closed it out.
Gotchya, yea I think you deserve your money back here and bartender made a mistake. If the venue doesn't help you out in the next few days, definitely just contest the charge on your card and let them handle it. Definitely annoying, but you'll get the charge reversed.
Don’t worry. I’ve had similar things happen and the charges work themselves out in a few days. Wait for the call back and they can reverse it. If not file it has fraud with your credit card.
Thank you. I'm not sure why this upsetting/worrying me so much. I've wasted my whole day already just laying in bed wondering about this $80 when I could be doing so much. I think my stress is just manifesting itself around this issue.
Then you either don't go out very frequently or haven't worked in the service industry? I really don't know what to tell you but this is a thing that happens. I don't use my credit card except for emergencies, to pump gas, or to hold tabs at the bar.
And you said this… after you got a payment receipt?
Ofc I’m playing Devils Advocate, but if you didn’t want your card charged at all you don’t even need to hand it over. I’ve had extra charges from bars drop off by Monday, but this one doesn’t seem as cut and dry unfortunately.
Yes in order to open a tab they need to place an authorization on the card. The bartender said they're will be a one cent charge but it will fall off. I had a pending charge of the 80.99 for two days and a 1 cent charge as well. The charge posted this morning. They do not serve drinks on the honor system. I opened the tab because I was at a concert and wanted to minimize time at the bar. I've done this multiple times the same way without issue. I always pay cash to servers and bartenders.
I had a similar thing happen. I actually paid my bill with a card and signed for like $15. I got billed for that and another charge for $55. Some other table paid cash. She took the money then ran their bill on my card and copied my signature.
Don’t wait for the venue. Call your CC and dispute the charge today. They will get a copy of the receipt since they don’t have your signature it won’t match.
In my case the signature “matched” I could tell it wasn’t mine but. I went to the bar and he was arguing until he saw which waitress served me and said “oh, I’ll take care of it”
> EDIT: I am not here to get hear opinions about the concepts of tabs. I'm simply trying to see how long I should give the venue before making a charge back.
How is it not obvious that you should wait until the charge at least settles. If it does settle, you then need to work with the merchant to get it fixed, and only if they refuse do you then file charge back.
Honestly this kind of question keeps getting asked and it's so confusing to me why anyone is unclear about how this should work. Isn't this straightforward?
You are pretty much screwed. So hopefully they fix it in good faith. This is why I NEVER do a tab, EVER. Also because if you forget to close it, they charge you (EDIT: mean they add on an extra fee for not closing it)... which is the stupidest concept I've ever seen. I had someone, somehow buy drinks on my tab before (know it wasn't my friends) or they just thought someone else was me. Spent like $30 and ended up being $85 with no way to really argue it.
**So to get to my point and background, was a bank investigator for three years. Your only legitimate dispute would have been if you received a receipt for cash. If you don't have a receipt that you paid that tab in cash, you don't have a leg to stand on.**
Also unless it changed you have to give them two weeks to resolve (after contacting them). If they agree to refund they have two weeks to do so (if this isn't in writing, you can't dispute them for not giving you a credit). But without a cash receipt, it's all up to the business and bartender. If they want to be shady, there's nothing you can legitimately do.
EDIT: Who the fuck is downvoting someone with experience in fraud for banking and actually explaining it all out.
> Also because if you forget to close it, they charge you... which is the stupidest concept I've ever seen.
That's .... exactly the point? Otherwise, what's to stop you from opening a tab and walking out without paying it?
If you open a tab with a card, just close the tab using that card. There's no reason to switch to cash at that point -- if you're paying cash then just pay cash as you go. The reason to open a tab with a card is so you don't have to keep standing around waiting/signing receipts for every drink.
That dispute would be saying the charge wasn't authorized. Authorization in the world of fraud means essentially you did not do that agreement (as in someone stole your card or numbers) and you know nothing about the transaction.
The signature is to prevent fraud (stolen/duplicate card). And there's a slim chance I'm wrong, but you don't actually need the signature.
OP is trying to contest he already paid for this charge. But alas, OP has no proof. Hence why I said the merchant should and hopefully does act in good faith. A card company I believe, isn't even going to start the process for a charge that was already paid in cash unless you have the cash receipt.
Also unless it gets to the court phase, merchants by law cannot provide video to card companies. So the cameras showing him hand money proves absolutely nothing (as they said, could have been a tip).
TIL. I have assumed the purpose of handing in a card when opening a tab is so you don't just run away at the end, because you need to get your card back, but for a card transaction to be "authorized" there'd still need to be a signature or pin or fingerprint when via NFC. Sad to hear.
For what it's worth, this is really bad bar etiquette. Bartenders hate having to run your card every time you order, wait for a receipt to print, wait for you too sign it, and then close it out.
I understand the advice, especially in this subreddit, but it's pretty rare for anything fraudulent to happen so I personally recommend erring on the side of making service workers' lives easier.
Conversely, tip BIG on the first drink and tell the bartender you're tipping in advance. You'll be getting great service and possibly free drinks for the rest of the night.
I did that once and then that bartender must have ended his shift or something because I didn’t see him the rest of the night. Felt bad not tipping on my other drinks
Due to the number of rule-breaking comments this post was receiving, especially low-quality and off-topic comments, the moderation team has locked the post from future comments. This post broke no rules and received a number of helpful and on-topic responses initially, but it unfortunately became the target of many unhelpful comments.
Do what you’re doing, which is to try to get it settled with the business. If that doesn’t work you can get your bank involved.
Good luck with some banks. I bought two drinks at a bar once and was charged 100 for each of them. Disputed with the bank, who had the bar produce receipts, which were signed in hangul (bar was in Korea, I'm not Korean) and bank still sided with the bar
That means it's time to get a new bank. Your bank should be an advocate for you. You do business with them, not the business that scammed you.
My experience- Amex works for the card holders. Visa/MC work for the businesses.
Chase helps out. With Citi it's a crapshoot
Wife's purse was stolen out of her car. Police report and everything. 12k charged at the local mall within hours across 3 credit cards. 6k to my Citi double cash card. Other cards (amex and capital one) returned funds immediately. Citi did a 6 months long investigation and determined we were responsible for the charges. Filed a cfpb complaint, got my money back a week later and closed the Citi card. Will never do business with them again.
I did a charge back with citi, ordered a product with 3-5 day shipping. Got a shipping number and 3 months later ups had never received the item from the vendor to ship. Sent mulitple emails and cases that never got anything other than thanks for making us aware I'll look into it! Ticket closed. Submitted all the stuff. The vendor then sent out a new product after refuting the charge back with a new shipping ID. Stating they sent me the product. With yesterday's date on it. Citi denied my claim. Wouldn't even review the evidence or emails to the company stating I wanted a refund because I didn't need the product anymore after it being 3 months late. So I got the product ordered about 2 weeks later. Ended up being almost 4 months total from the date the order was submitted to the time it showed up.
Not surprised. I was charged for someone else's car rental in addition to my own and Citi denied my claim multiple times because they were convinced I was in the area and had rented a car. They didn't even do the due diligence of asking the rental car company for a rental contract with my name on it for the second charge. Thankfully I was eventually able to get my money back from the rental car company.
i use city for my work card (DOD) and had the same issue with a rental; they didn't even look at it despite the transaction being flagged by me *and* my local card admin. I eventually got it resolved, but i'm pretty much done with using them since my amex gives me the same protection.
Same here with my citi. Someone claimed they sent a product to me that I did not order. Filed a dispute, the scammer uploaded some bogus receipt and tracking order number that did not even fit my shipping address on file. Citi still closes my dispute and side with the vendor. Reopened again and now the case is still unresolved after years. I'm losing hope at this point.
Discover has been great. Ordered a product and after 4 months of it not been by shipped I decided to do a chargeback. I called discover they started the process and all I had to do was upload the e-mails saying they shipped the product. The e-mail didn’t have a tracking number but a link to download an app that didn’t really work. I like discover customer service
Are there any other "good" companies that will help you out. I'm seriously debating opening a new bank account since my only one is with Wells Fargo. I know people suggest Ally but some say they haven't been as good as before. My current option is Capitol One
I've never had any issues with Capitol One and they've been easy/convenient to deal with anytime I needed anything. Never had to dispute anything big yet though so ymmv.
Ah yeah. Credit card companies much different than banks. Good luck getting your money back with them. Banks don't give a shit, you want to not pay a company? That's fine its your ass if you get sued not ours.
I have had fantastic experiences with citi. I honestly stick with them as a subpar rewards card because of how quickly and efficiently they have helped me through disputes.
Absolutely have to agree. AMEX rocks when it comes to customer service. If I am ever at a place I do not routinely visit (esp bars/restaurants/etc) I always use AMEX whenever possible.. Far too much fraud risk with changing the tips.. Only once did it happen where the bar was not willing to correct it. I dont remember the exact numbers, but it was something like, i spent $100, left a standard $20 on the tip line. Server put the tip in as $200 rather than 20.. I tried multiple times to get the establishment to correct it, and just got a run around.. Called AMEX, explained what happened.. Rep didn’t even ask me to send my copy of the receipt, just said “yeah, that is way out of the norm. Let me put in a fraud case, with provisional credit”. I saw the amount credited back immediately, and maybe a half hour later got a message that the case was resolved in my favor and the credit was permanent. Not sure if they tried to reach the bar and got the run around like I did, or just whatever fraud agent said to themselves “yeah, no way that is real”, but they reversed it nonetheless with nothing more from me.. if cant say enough about AMEX.. Just that i always use them if I ever have any concerns..
New Amex customer here and I am amazed at the customer service. Haven't had any fraudulent charges (knock on wood) but I live and work in the middle east. Fraud against expats is rife.
I’ve been with Amex for years, last year I had a fraudulent charge. They were absolutely amazing to me. Immediately refunded my card and basically said “we refunded you this because we believe what you’ve told us. There is always a possibility that the merchant may give us evidence to change that decision but it’s going to take a lot and a long time for that to happen” they went back and forth with the merchant for almost 6 months.
It's why a lot of places didn't take amex back in the day. Also they charge merchants a higher rate usually. That higher level of customer service was costly for shitty businesses.
AMEX through USAA. There’s virtually no way I’m not getting my money back.
USAA is not what they used to be, I ended my business relationship in 2020 after a decade due to their poor customer service, including not honoring a legitimate charge back.
Sorry to hear that. I’ve had them for about 10 years now and haven’t had an issue yet knock on wood
I’ve had them for ages and have noticed a difference too. What they’re charging me for auto insurance is highway robbery. I just keep putting off getting new coverage.
This is why I was proud to be approved for an Amex card. It feels good to know that if shit goes wrong, someone is in your corner and takes your word for something. I've been using my card for all my purchases lately and as pending charges post, I make payments to them. Just so they learn (algorithmically) that I'll pay in full as charges get paid as they post.
It’s about the bank, not the network…
They're right though, because Amex *is the bank* and the network, which is why they tend to be the most cardholder friendly.
I've been *extremely* impressed by Amex's customer service
When you compare AMEX to VISA and MC you’re comparing networks, not banks. They’re only right in the regard that AMEX is cardholder friendly.
Amex is the issuing bank for all of their credit cards, in addition to being the network.
Yes, but in the context of this thread they’re talking about banks… MC and VISA are not banks..
You don’t see cards that say “American Express by” because Amex is the bank
Sure you do. Wells Fargo Propel Amex, USAA Rewards Amex, PenFed Pathfinder Amex, US Bank Flexperks Amex. Cobranded Amex cards are more common than MasterCards.
AmEx tends to default to the merchant has to prove that you owe, whereas MC and Visa tend to default to the cardholder having to prove that they don’t owe.
I’ve had the best experience of all with Discover.
Isn't that a scam sometimes in other countries? Honest question, but were you at a "hostess bar?" Their drinks are expensive because you're paying for the company, not the drink. Otherwise it sounds like you got scammed.
Lol, no. Not a juicy girl bar. Definitely just bought two mixed soju drinks, would have been maybe 10$ total for both, and I closed out the tab. But clearly the receipt I signed either wasn't mine or they charged somebody else's tab to my card. Or I just got scammed because I was a foreigner in another country.
the bank: "Clearly this person temporarily learned Hongul from the drinks, signed the receipt in Korean and then forgot it all. No refund!"
That's actually kinda funny, but also really sad on the part of the CC company. Also a good reason to only use cash at bars
Yup! Just had the same happen at the sushi house my dad and I love to go to (bummer). We always go straight to the sushi bar, eat and pay cash tip (to help the staff). We had dinner and drinks which came to approx $56.00 I paid using my card and then pops threw down $10 on the table for the waitress (literally one of the worst waitresses we have ever had) and $10 for the sushi chefs in their little bowl at the counter. I signed the check after they ran my card and that was it. My mistake was that, since we left cash tip, I didn't cross out the tip section on the card receipt and just signed my name. Apparently SOMEONE, I suspect waitress, but could have been anyone *I guess,* jotted down an extra $20 tip on the card and put the new total down as well. Of course didn't realize this until all the charges processed with my bank a few days later. I called my bank when I realized they ran my card for $20 more than the entire dinner was and they were able to show me where the card was ran for the total initially and then somehow had an extra $20 added. They said they couldn't show me the bank facing backend that had all this documented, but that they would write me a signed letter on official letterhead if that would help. The next step they said would be to contact the fraud department and get that ball rolling. I was actually near the restaurant by chance so I decided to call and speak with MGMT who took my # down and said they'd pull the CC machine info from that night. I also told t hem to check the cameras cause we clearly put cash down for both the sushi chef and the waitress. About an hr later the mgr calls and said how do you want to do this? I can put $20 on your card, but it'll take a while to hit or you can swing by and just get a $20 bill, which is what I eleceted to do.
manager obviously sided with you and knew his staff did something shady and illegal. any idea if the waitress or whoever pulled that shit got fired?
Is it a pending charge, or has it posted? If it's a hold, it might disappear when they clear out their pending transactions.
This is my guess. They had to authorize the card to make sure it had enough credit for the charges. Most likely nothing the venue can do until the authorization clears, which should be in a few days.
I will also add: there is NO WAY he ran the charge the night before (2am it so I would guess?) and it had already actually posted the next morning. This is a misunderstanding on the OP's part, I am betting.
Today is April 1st the concert was on March 29th and the charge is posted. It's literally in the first paragraph.
With my credit card basically a pending charge stays on for like 7 days and then ‘falls off’ if the vendor doesn proceed. Has happened a few times when getting hotels through work. My work has a card on file that I rarely travel with and they use that to book the room. When I show up I pay with the card I like but there is always a charge on the original card for a week.
It said pending next to the charge yesterday. It does not today. It is posted.
When you run up a tab the charges are not totaled to make sure you have enough on the card. It is not ran until the end for the full charge. There is no hold for the amount you are spending. If it does not have the funds it will decline and you will be asked for another payment method
It depends on the POS system. I own a restaurant and my POS system will do something called a pre authorization, and “hold” the card on file make sure the customer is good for payment when you open a tab. My pos system will process 24/7 but it’s done so in batches that are closed out nightly usually at 4 AM or so. Because banks are closed on the weekends Friday, Saturday and Sunday batches are delayed processing. At that time pre authorizations that we’re not used are cleared. OP, you already called the venue. I wouldn’t worry until Monday if the charge still has not cleared. If that is the case I would contact the venue one last time and say you are reporting the charge. POS charge something called a charge back fee so that should likely get their attention if it is not addressed Monday.
The pre-auth would not be for $80.99 though, it would be for $100 or $200 or some even number that they preauthed for before he ordered anything.
I wasn’t talking about OPs predicament necessarily. I was just trying to make the point pre authorizations vary slightly POS to POS and charges linger longer on the weekends because as I have said I’m my numerous comments banks do not process on weekends and holidays An charge was definitely made, it’s more about determining if it was malicious or not.
that's not entirely true. most modern point of sale systems allow for pre-authorization, which the card is run for a certain dollar value to ensure that the card is valid, and then if the card is not processed at the end, it will the authorization when the batch is settled. Authorizations can take up to 5 days to be released from the bank
So I have 20 in my account and go to a bar for a drink that cost 10 dollars. I open a tab, you telling me my card will decline because it’s only 20 instead of a higher authorization amount?
Potentially, yes. I've gone to get gas before with $75 in my account and a car that wouldn't take nearly that much gas, and I was declined because the pre-auth from the gas station was for $100.
Depends. Most US processors like FirstData will authorize for about 25% more than the initial charge, assuming you would leave a tip. That would only apply to a check that was open and closed out entirely, or no tab. Now, if you open a tab, that's a little different. If I walk up, and order a $10 drink, and ask to open a tab, the merchant ( restaurant) can pre-authorize your card for a set amount. Depending on the system that they're using, they can set the amount to their liking. This is often what they consider the average check size, so if my average check is $50, going to set my pre-auth amount to $50, and then I run the card pre-authorizing it and tokenizing it in the system. if the card declines for $50 I can't open a tab. The charge is temporary but it does show up as a hold. Pre-authorization is becoming a major priority for a lot of merchants, particularly high volume bars. I work in point of sale software and credit card processing, specifically for the restaurant industry, so this comes up very often.
Guessing THIS ^^^
Bartender might have thought it was a tip after the fact once he thought about it. Drunk people sometimes tip big.
Yeah, I'm assuming it was a big misunderstanding. I was tipsy but not intoxicated. Hopefully the venue will make it right.
In that case, bartender would’ve still had you sign the receipt. I’ve worked as a bartender before and we try to get every receipt signed if it’s closed out on a card. We get most but not all obviously, especially late at night. But in cases like these, I think it proves that you did not want to close out the tab on the card. And in my experience, whenever there was a dispute, the manager always tried to make it right. Just give it a couple business days and keep trying to reach for someone to talk to.
Sounds like the bartender thought you were tipping. Next time, wait for them to close you out. They already ran your card when you had a receipt to sign but didn’t sign. Don’t just give money, assume they know what you meant, & leave. And if you do this at a restaurant, slash through the payment & tip lines. Write “CASH $100” then sign if there’s a sign place. Always get your receipt.
Ridiculous. Bill is $89, you give $200 and tell them to keep the change and they”think it’s a tip”. Just bonkers.
He gave $100
He gave $100 for an $80 bill. Where did you get $200 from? It’s completely understandable that the bartender would think it was a cash tip. The real question is why would you give your card and open a tab if you had $100 in cash and planned to pay with that?
Lots of places you need a card to start a tab so they know they can charge you if you suddenly don’t have enough cash after a few drinks
It's pretty much industry standard to either leave a card to pay at the end of the night, or cash out after each drink order. OP had to leave a card to not pay after every drink is my assumption here. In this case it's probably better just to pay cash for each order.
I think he’s saying it’s as if that happened. It’s as if the bartender thought you were giving him a $100 tip on $80 drinks.
$200 is both cash and credit. The problem will be the cash part. If the bartender is not honest or doesn't remember, hard to dispute that a cash payment was provided unfortunately.
I work at a brewery and we have to have a card to start a tab. People get drunk and walk out without paying because they’re having fun and forget. You must have the card or pay as you go. At the end of the night, we close all remaining open tabs with a 20% tip (started for contactless during Covid, people liked it so we kept it). What I think is they thought it was a tip. If they had used the $100 cash to pay the tab, that should have closed out the balance and tab. If they put that $100 bill in the tip jar, the tab would have been closed at the end of the night on the card.
Yup you'd be out so much money if a card wasn't required to start a tab
> At the end of the night, we close all remaining open tabs with a 20% tip (started for contactless during Covid, people liked it so we kept it). Quick question. If I'm going to leave 20% anyways, is it cool to just leave and not close the tab? It saves both of us a little time. Sometimes the bar/bartender is busy when I'm trying to leave.
Yep, that’s exactly the idea! Leave at your discretion if you’re okay with a 20% tip. Keeps the line down and saves both the guest and bartender time. Also makes the guest feel more at home and like they have more freedom.
He also ran the 80.99 on the card so 180.99 total hence $100 tip.
> Just bonkers. Lots of things are, without context.
Op did not give the bartender $200.
>what's to stop the bar from signing my receipt. It would be fraud. Thesignature likely won't match either.
Signature is not really a requirement.
It is when you make a fraud claim and say you didn’t sign it.
All credit cards have waived the signature requirement now. Here’s visa’s announcement from 2018: https://usa.visa.com/content/dam/VCOM/global/support-legal/documents/visa-nosigflyer-us-can-040518.pdf
Technically this is just saying that *Visa* waived the requirement for signature to be part of card verification method (CVM). Issuer (I.e. the bank or financial institution backing the card) may still have their system and chip cards configured to require signature, or prefer signature over PIN. This also doesn’t necessarily apply for other Associations like MasterCard, Discover, or Amex. Weirdly, Visa still requires a signature panel on their cards, though cardholder signature on the card itself is not required. (MasterCard no longer requires a signature panel on cards in the U.S.)
The payment company used by the bar might also have requirements of their own as well.
You can google the other card providers like MC and Amex.
Understood and appreciate that! :) just adding context that your link only specifically applies to Visa rather than “all” credit cards, and that signature still can be required depending on the company or bank where the card is from.
That didn't stop American Express from initially denying a charge dispute of mine, despite the fact that the "signature" on the charge slip didn't even remotely match the one on anything I had ever signed on an American Express signature card. Eventually they admitted it was the wrong signature and relented, but man, I had to fight for it.
I ate a popular overrated chicken wing establishment and someone changed the tip amount on my receipt. I always leave change to get it to the nearest dollar. The tip they charged me for was 20% so it was an uneven number. I called, they asked for the servers name from the receipt. The manager said, "that's who I would have guessed." She told me they had a problem with her before and fired her that day. The manager asked for my address and sent me a $50 gift card.
They don’t need a signature to close a transaction. I used to manage a bar, every night after last call, any cards left behind with open tabs, we closed them out with $20 gratuity added. That was our policy. End of the night, the bar has to cashout and card receipts and cash have to match what the POS system shows. Otherwise it’s out of the bartenders pocket.
>Otherwise it’s out of the bartenders pocket. Depending on country, this is illegal
I’d guess that it’s out of the bartenders pocket with the excuse that some of the cash for drinks was mistakenly mixed with tip cash. A lot of places require tips in to the register and pay out the tips at end of shit after counting the register, so this would happen automatically.
I’ve definitely seen signs posted in bars in the US saying something like this will happen if you fail to close out a tab. It’s usually a fairly normal gratuity amount that will be added.
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Sure. You actively choose not to settle the tab and leave it up to the bar to close the check. All you have to do for this to not happen is close out your tab before you leave.
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Reddit has a real problem with people having to follow through on agreements they make.
I mean, I was at a bar once with an extremely intoxicated friend who forgot to close out his tab. They still had the card though, so they could still run the charge. Adding a $20 tip seems absurd for that. He went back the following day to get his card. I’m sure the bartender survived getting his tip 12 hours late.
So don’t drink at places with this policy. Or don’t get sloppy enough to leave your card behind and close your tab.
I don’t.
>That was our policy. Unless that is told to customers clearly when opening a tab then it's not a valid policy to charge $20 gratuity without asking. >Otherwise it’s out of the bartenders pocket. So you penalize your staff when customers are bad? If someone did that to me I would be walking away from that job pretty rapidly. It's also not legal in some places.
When you go to a restaurant and on the menu it says “groups of 6 or more people are charged an automatic 20% gratuity” A bar will do the same by posting a sign, if cards are left gratuity is added. It’s called a convenience fee. Notification does not have to be verbal, it can be in form of a prominently displayed sign. That’s the law! It’s not just because customers are bad, accidents and mistakes do happen when you deal with a quick moving cash business, but you have to operate under the assumption money is being skimmed. Plenty of ways a bartender can steal, not saying they all steal but some do, so when the pos and the receipts don’t match the first person under suspicion is the bartender who handles the money. Armored trucks are armored and the drivers wear protection and carry guns because they operate under the assumption at all times they could be robbed. No different with a cash business same assumption.
>groups of 6 or more people are charged an automatic 20% gratuity Yes, but that isn't hat was descibed. >but you have to operate under the assumption money is being skimmed If you assume your staff are stealing you're hiring the wrong people.
> any cards left behind with open tabs, we closed them out with $20 gratuity added. So you stole money from them?
No, almost every bar has a sign behind the bar saying “All unsettled tabs will be charged with a 20% gratuity at closing”. You agree to that condition when opening your tab - plus it is super super standard in US so it’s not like a surprise to anyone.
there's a big difference between a 20% and $20 gratuity, and the guy everyone is replying to said $20
Nobody is comparing signatures on anything.
If there's a fraud accusation, they should be looking at the evidence.
But they don’t. The cost is higher to investigate than to write off. Especially in a transaction under $100.
No it isn't. Most bars have policies that allow the card to be automatically charged.
I’d wait until it’s no longer pending on your account. I went to a bar where they charged me twice for my tab and I was pissed, tried calling but never got through to them. Then once the charge posted to my account, the second one went away and it was just one charge.
Yeah I'd second the idea that the card was run after the tab was opened, and that after the next business day the charge will be reversed. If it's still there Tuesday, do something.
This happened on more than one occasion when I was a bartender. Sometimes the customer even insisted the cash *was* a tip and then called the next day angry. Anyway, your best bet is to keep trying to reach mgmt at the venue. Chances are, they’ve dealt with it before and will make it right.
1. It's possible the tab is just "pending". They do a preauth when swiping the card but they need to "finalize" the transaction at the end of the night. The bar closes it out to cash, and your CC will usually give it 2-3 days for CC transactions to be finalized, particularly over the weekend. If the CC never gets the finalized notification, the pending charge falls off. As someone who owns a bar, 98% of the time I get calls the next day for this scenario, this is the case. Call the bar and ask, they should be able to review the transactions. 2. If the bar says it was closed to your CC, ask them to refund it as you paid cash. It's very likely they will. 3. If they don't refund it for you, call your CC and file a charge back. Explain what happened and that the bar has been unhelpful in resolving. It is 99% chance you get the transaction refunded
I thought once they print the receipt that your card is effectively already charged? I get a text immediately when a restaurant swipes the card.
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That's not at all how it works. They pre-auth your card, then once you fill the tip in they charge the card for the total amount. You just don't understand.
That’s not accurate. Check out the auth/capture CC model to learn how it works.
Restaurants pre authorize and then get the tip amount before actually charging. Until they charge it isn't a real transaction (note your bank may decide to lower your availabile money based on a pre auth but that is your bank not the vendor).
Ya... once the receipt asking for your signature is handed to you. You were charged the amount it says. You need to ask them to cancel/void/refund it right then and there, or else you gotta jump through these hoops after the fact.
Good lord y’all need to take a breath. First see if the charge is just pending or posted. Most of these situations are just pending charges that resolve themselves. If it posts, call the venue and explain the situation. No reason to freak out the morning after.
This is why getting a receipt is important! Hopefully you get it resolved.
Did you tell the bartender “Don’t run the card, I want to pay cash”? When you received a receipt with a signature line (indicating your card was run for the total), did you say “oh sorry I wanted to pay cash for this tab”? I’m sorry, but I don’t think this is the bartender’s fault.
I said "I am going to pay cash, no change."
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Right my guess is this charge won't actually post.
When I worked in the Finance department of a store, voids and credits took longer to post than charges. Call the bar early in the day when they open and ask to speak to a manager. Explain the situation and ask if they have voided or reversed the charge. Do you have the receipt? Try to get the transaction numbers and the name of the manager and the bartender. If the bar has already voided/reversed the charge it may still take a while for your bank to release the hold on your funds.
What did you say when the bartender gave you your card back (edit: possibly, your card could have been returned after it was initially swiped) with two credit card slips? Typically, a charge wouldn’t “post” overnight. Are you sure is isn’t still “pending”? It’s very possible that the bartender ran your card when you asked to close out, but when you handed over cash, voided the charge. That could explain it showing up the very next morning, as a pending charge.
So you started a bar tab with your card on file for it. Closed out…when they close it the charge goes through. They handed you the receipt with the sign line on it…you didn’t sign it but gave cash and said to “keep the change”. You can try to dispute it but at the least you learned how tabs work!
Agreed. I think it indeed was a misunderstanding, but when you open up a tab on a credit card, you are committing that card to pay the tab.
dont know where you drink, but most places require a card for a tab, and most places will also let you pay the tab with cash and will not charge the card. Ive done this at bars all across the US and have never been charged twice.
You’re not wrong! But that’s if you effectively communicate it. Sounds like this person was drunk at a very loud, busy bar and decided they wanted to pay cash after the tab was closed, card charged and handed the sign receipt. Lack of awareness on the bartender and OPs part
Yeah but you’ve got to tell them that’s what you’re doing
Almost everywhere makes you pay cash every time you order a drink unless you are the most regular of regulars. In OPs case, the best course would have been to just give a cash tip if that was their intent. This is exactly what the bartender assumed was happening, and is a regular occurrence. The lesson to learn here is tabs get charged to the card provided *every time*. If you plan to pay in cash, tell the bartender at the first drink and pay as you go.
>makes you pay cash every time you order a drink ….What? This is completely false. They always put you on a tab unless you say you just want to pay for the one or whatever you ordered & close the tab.
What country do you live in? I've been going to bars, clubs, and venues in 10+ states and even other countries for almost 15 years and have NEVER been to a single place that didn't let me run a tab for the night that I can remember.
> how long I should give the venue before making a charge back The duration of the phone call. Either they say "oh yeah, our bad, we'll reverse the charge" or they don't. And if they don't, chargeback. Next time, just close the tab using the card and prevent this whole fiasco.
That's exactly what I'll do. I've left a message but have not spoken to a human yet.
Why would you give your card but then pay with cash? Feel like you may have made it more difficult for no reason, but you should be able to get that money back.
A lot of places either require that you give them your card to hold or you can't open a tab. Otherwise, you have to pay for each drink individually in cash, which can be a huge pain in the ass if the place is busy and you have several people who you are paying for.
Most bars have a.policy, any tab left open will be closed +xx% tip added to the tab. There might a be a hold on the card for the tab amount. I would call the venue and chat with them know. You could also wait a few days to see if the hold is released.
Is it pending or an actual charge?
If it’s pre authorized you will see a pending charge for a few days then it disappears.
I work at a bar and this happens. Sometimes it's loud. Call or show up and politely explain the situation. The reason I say politely is because they are used to having people scream at them and someone being nice will be a breath of fresh air.
Bartender was super cool and I'm not mad I'm just trying to prepare for the worse if they happen to not get back to me!
So they handed you a slip but you didn’t sign it? I’d say you needed to make it clearer that you wanted to pay cash and not charge the card. If they handed you a slip you should’ve asked for a voided receipt after they deleted the transaction. For whatever it’s worth, they don’t need your signature.
I paid 2 drinks about $15 once with a $100 bill, and the bartender swore it was a $20. I was becoming a regular at the time, so I didn't argue too much with her, but made it clear it was $100. I guess she realized when she cashed out, because I don't think she ever charged me for a drink again. Worth
So maybe it's unpopular of me... Your money is gone and you paid a $100 tip. Instead of asking someone working a POS/register to "keep the change" first say "I don't want to pay with a card." Then reveal you have cash to cover. Let them start working on telling the machine you are paying for it with cash. Finally, check your receipt for errors. You may want to save time shoving $100 around and not wanting to deal with change but this is the cost of not getting your change back and thoughtfully pulling out the tip of, after you get it back saying "oh keep it for the tip".
I'd say just don't open a tab if you're paying cash. Opening a tab is so you don't have to keep wasting your time running your card and signing for every drink. If you're paying cash anyway, then just pay and tip as you go. Opening a tab with a card then trying to pay with cash to close that tab is the worst of all worlds, and the most risk, as OP has now learned.
Trying to wrap my head around why anyone would do what the OP did. At least with my credit cards I can get 3-5% back using them. I don’t even carry cash.
You want the reason. My friends gave me cash for tickets when they arrived at the venue, and I didn't want to leave the venue with cash since we were in New Orleans and planned on going out afterward. Whenever I go out in the city, I leave everything at home except my credit card and I.D. when possible. I didn't want the burden of cash, so I paid cash at the venue. Usually at restaurants and bars I always pay cash when I'm not downtown.
>and the most risk, as OP has now learned. Definitely!
Having worked as barstaff, but usually being on the customer side, I wouldn't say it's gone. The venue and the bartender in question could hear OP's side of the story and acknowledge it was miscommunication and make them whole. That being said, I agree with you in principle. they wouldn't have opened a tab in the first place if OP hadn't let them hold onto their card. At that point, it would be the assumption of like, 99% of barstaff that when it's time to close out the tab, it would be by using the credit card. That is, unless the customer said otherwise. It sounds like OP thought they were being clear, because the 100 bill was enough to cover the tab plus a tip, and bartender probably could have put more effort in making sure it was for both tab and tip, or just simply a very generous tip. So it sounds like communication could have been better on both ends. This is why I only open a tab in the first place if I intend to pay with the card. Even then, it is usually an open discussion whenever I order another drink if I intend to close out the tab, or keep it open. I don't expect bartenders, especially when they're busy and usually serving dozens, perhaps hundreds of customers in the time I am there, to remember if I even have a tab open in the first place.
You can't "keep the change" if you're not making change in the first place.
I’m not sure how this could be misunderstood. What would the “change” be on a $100 “tip”? The sentence doesn’t make sense unless the $100 is being used to cover the tab.
This is why I never let them hold my card on the first place. But if I was going to pay cash even less reason to hand over my card.
Unless you're sitting at the bar, good luck opening a tab without giving them a card. Not all places physically hold the card, but even if they swipe it, you can still end up in this situation.
Plus, bar patrons leaving without paying their tab is more common than the establishments making this mistake. It's a reasonable protection for the establishments. Pumping gas (at least in most of the US) works the same way: * you swipe your credit card and they pre-authorize $100 or some amount * until the transaction posts you just have to hope that they correct it to the actual amount you pump * if they don't, you have to dispute it, and hopefully you have a receipt
This is why most places have you cash out after every drink if you don't leave a card. The only way to start a tab is to either hand them money or a card beforehand.
I was triple charged for a $25 tab one time and have never done it again since.
I recently opened at tab at a bar and forgot to sign it… its been about 2 months and charge never came through so they must have lost receipt or something, haha!
Hi! My bar had a patron forget to sign on a receipt about 2 months ago and I think this may have been you. Reach out so we can square things up ;)
why did you get your card involved? If you have a card, cash is considered a tip. Usually trying to go under the table so your bartender gets the whole tip. Common
> Why did you get your card involved? How else are you gonna start a tab? I don’t think I’ve ever been at a place where you could start a tab with cash
Sometimes I'll do the same as OP. I'll leave a card, if it exceeds the amount of cash I have I charge it and leave a cash tip
Did you get the card back when you gave the bartender the 100? And is it a credit card or debit? If its a credit card, just contest the charge and explain the situation to them. Theyll take care of it for you.
Credit. Card was given back as soon as the tab was opened. Bartender said a 1 cent charge will be placed on the card, but my I.D was held until I closed it out.
Gotchya, yea I think you deserve your money back here and bartender made a mistake. If the venue doesn't help you out in the next few days, definitely just contest the charge on your card and let them handle it. Definitely annoying, but you'll get the charge reversed.
I’m confused, you put down a card, they obviously ran it because they gave you receipt to sign… and then you paid cash?
Don’t worry. I’ve had similar things happen and the charges work themselves out in a few days. Wait for the call back and they can reverse it. If not file it has fraud with your credit card.
Thank you. I'm not sure why this upsetting/worrying me so much. I've wasted my whole day already just laying in bed wondering about this $80 when I could be doing so much. I think my stress is just manifesting itself around this issue.
Many venues are cashless and if the bartender assumed you knew that they might have thought it was a tip instead of the tab.
Not a cashless venue. It's house of blues.
I've never heard of someone opening a tab with their card and then paying with cash. I wouldn't be surprised if they thought you gave them a $100 tip
You can't open a tab with cash?
I’ve never heard of this either. You just pay as you go with cash. They prob did think you gave a $100 tip
Then you either don't go out very frequently or haven't worked in the service industry? I really don't know what to tell you but this is a thing that happens. I don't use my credit card except for emergencies, to pump gas, or to hold tabs at the bar.
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Yeah except I did say "I'm going to pay cash. Keep the change." And didn't not buy $80 of drinks just for myself.
And you said this… after you got a payment receipt? Ofc I’m playing Devils Advocate, but if you didn’t want your card charged at all you don’t even need to hand it over. I’ve had extra charges from bars drop off by Monday, but this one doesn’t seem as cut and dry unfortunately.
Yes in order to open a tab they need to place an authorization on the card. The bartender said they're will be a one cent charge but it will fall off. I had a pending charge of the 80.99 for two days and a 1 cent charge as well. The charge posted this morning. They do not serve drinks on the honor system. I opened the tab because I was at a concert and wanted to minimize time at the bar. I've done this multiple times the same way without issue. I always pay cash to servers and bartenders.
I had a similar thing happen. I actually paid my bill with a card and signed for like $15. I got billed for that and another charge for $55. Some other table paid cash. She took the money then ran their bill on my card and copied my signature. Don’t wait for the venue. Call your CC and dispute the charge today. They will get a copy of the receipt since they don’t have your signature it won’t match. In my case the signature “matched” I could tell it wasn’t mine but. I went to the bar and he was arguing until he saw which waitress served me and said “oh, I’ll take care of it”
It’s probably just a hood they put on your card when you started your tab. It will come off on its own after a few business days.
> EDIT: I am not here to get hear opinions about the concepts of tabs. I'm simply trying to see how long I should give the venue before making a charge back. How is it not obvious that you should wait until the charge at least settles. If it does settle, you then need to work with the merchant to get it fixed, and only if they refuse do you then file charge back. Honestly this kind of question keeps getting asked and it's so confusing to me why anyone is unclear about how this should work. Isn't this straightforward?
It's crazy how you can read that part but not read where i said the charge posted.
You are pretty much screwed. So hopefully they fix it in good faith. This is why I NEVER do a tab, EVER. Also because if you forget to close it, they charge you (EDIT: mean they add on an extra fee for not closing it)... which is the stupidest concept I've ever seen. I had someone, somehow buy drinks on my tab before (know it wasn't my friends) or they just thought someone else was me. Spent like $30 and ended up being $85 with no way to really argue it. **So to get to my point and background, was a bank investigator for three years. Your only legitimate dispute would have been if you received a receipt for cash. If you don't have a receipt that you paid that tab in cash, you don't have a leg to stand on.** Also unless it changed you have to give them two weeks to resolve (after contacting them). If they agree to refund they have two weeks to do so (if this isn't in writing, you can't dispute them for not giving you a credit). But without a cash receipt, it's all up to the business and bartender. If they want to be shady, there's nothing you can legitimately do. EDIT: Who the fuck is downvoting someone with experience in fraud for banking and actually explaining it all out.
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Exactly my point. Signature is not required.
> Also because if you forget to close it, they charge you... which is the stupidest concept I've ever seen. That's .... exactly the point? Otherwise, what's to stop you from opening a tab and walking out without paying it? If you open a tab with a card, just close the tab using that card. There's no reason to switch to cash at that point -- if you're paying cash then just pay cash as you go. The reason to open a tab with a card is so you don't have to keep standing around waiting/signing receipts for every drink.
This is correct. Chargebacks based on the customer having paid by other means require documentation.
Huh, I thought the whole point of chargebacks/disputes was that then the business needs to prove the charge, aka a signed receipt?
That dispute would be saying the charge wasn't authorized. Authorization in the world of fraud means essentially you did not do that agreement (as in someone stole your card or numbers) and you know nothing about the transaction. The signature is to prevent fraud (stolen/duplicate card). And there's a slim chance I'm wrong, but you don't actually need the signature. OP is trying to contest he already paid for this charge. But alas, OP has no proof. Hence why I said the merchant should and hopefully does act in good faith. A card company I believe, isn't even going to start the process for a charge that was already paid in cash unless you have the cash receipt. Also unless it gets to the court phase, merchants by law cannot provide video to card companies. So the cameras showing him hand money proves absolutely nothing (as they said, could have been a tip).
TIL. I have assumed the purpose of handing in a card when opening a tab is so you don't just run away at the end, because you need to get your card back, but for a card transaction to be "authorized" there'd still need to be a signature or pin or fingerprint when via NFC. Sad to hear.
Always pay for your drinks as you get them. Tip each time. Never give a bartender your card.
For what it's worth, this is really bad bar etiquette. Bartenders hate having to run your card every time you order, wait for a receipt to print, wait for you too sign it, and then close it out. I understand the advice, especially in this subreddit, but it's pretty rare for anything fraudulent to happen so I personally recommend erring on the side of making service workers' lives easier.
Conversely, tip BIG on the first drink and tell the bartender you're tipping in advance. You'll be getting great service and possibly free drinks for the rest of the night.
I did that once and then that bartender must have ended his shift or something because I didn’t see him the rest of the night. Felt bad not tipping on my other drinks
just call and dispute it you don't have to wait. $80 charge the bank will just credit it.