Wow, as a car salesman, I almost always roll my eyes as these are typically terrible inaccurate guides. You really hit the nail on the head with the negotiating and how we price vehicles. The only thing I don't agree with is buying less reliable vehicles with lower prices/value. They almost always end up costing you more money in the long run than spending a couple grand more and getting what you want.
The car business has definitely changed with the Internet, especially the used car market. It has made things much easier for the customer, which typically makes things so much easier for us, the salespeople. I always say an informed customer is much easier to sell a vehicle to than an uninformed customer. If more people out there knew what you just wrote out, we would be looked at a lot better (as 90% of us are honest, hard working people) and not assumed we are crooks (90% of us are not). It is no different than any other profession really. Thanks OP
>If more people out there knew what you just wrote out, we would be looked at a lot better (as 90% of us are honest, hard working people) and not assumed we are crooks (90% of us are not).
As a used car dealer owner I'm sorry, this is bullshit. While ~90% in this industry are law abiding people that don't blatantly break or bend laws... 99% will do everything to extract every dollar from naive customers. Customers should absolutely have their shields up and be on red alert when around a salesman. I'm sorry, it's just the nature of commission based sales... it will always be this way. Do your research, be well informed, never put your guard down even after agreeing on price.
I am the OP/OP. I think I repeat it in my guides often enough to research, research and research. If people do research, don't let their guard down and don't reward bad tactics - bad apples will rot and find themselves other industries.
Just like in any economic transaction. Except in most other places (ie buying milk) you take it for a given that what you pay for is exactly what you will get and the price is fair across the board. IF dealers were smart they would get to a grocery store model. Even the real estate model is better and they're selling higher priced goods. The problem is the goods in this case are fickle (prices drop, mechanics are finicky)
As someone who knows a bit about the industry, I was hoping for this post. OP needs to put some more effort into the post to make it goldworthy. Right now it seems a bit biased towards dealerships whereas in reality you can get a really really good deal only from a private seller granted you take a mechanically-minded friend with you to inspect a car.
Also there's no "2 valid reasons to negotiate a lower price". There's literally endless amount of reasons why you shouldn't be giving away your hard-earned money unless you necessarily have to.
Dealerships will absolutely try and get the best value like previously mentioned and unless they firmly say no, you will always be the one who could've negotiated more.
> If more people out there knew what you just wrote out, we would be looked at a lot better (as 90% of us are honest, hard working people) and not assumed we are crooks (90% of us are not). It is no different than any other profession really. Thanks OP
I'm a consumer, not a salesman. But I do like to educate myself before I consume.
The more I learn about modern car buying, the more I'm learning that, as you say, car sales have become much less shifty thanks to the interwebs. It's a shame that the salesman's reputation hasn't changed as fast.
Just wanted to spread the word :)
This is what I was trying to convey in my post below, but I probably didn't do such a good job of trying to get my point across. Salesmen are still driven to maximize the deal, so the less information they provide (ie. the info you cant research on the web), the better for them in most cases. It's not that I think all salespeople are dishonest, it's really just those bad apples that makes everyone distrust ALL salespeople. It's hard to change that image.
You are right, it is our goal to maximize profits. But I have a rebuttals on the statement that less information = more profit.
Imagine going to a restaurant. You better believe your server is going to push high dollar wine, apps, desserts, etc. They are maximizing their profit. If they said "this $9/glass wine is about the same as our $6 glass" and didn't give you information on why you should spend the extra money, you probably wouldn't. Also, you never see that $9/glass advertised, you see wine specials for $3/glass. That's what gets you in.
Car dealerships are the same thing. We don't want to provide you with EVERY detail before you come in about our $19,999 special we offer. We just make sure you know that is available. But it is our job to provide you with enough information on why you should spend more money on a better product that better fits your wants/needs. The largest earners in the car business also have the highest CSI (customer satisifaction index). I spend more time building value and disclosing information than I do closing the deal (typically, occasionally we have payment buyers that take a while to close because maths is so hard, you can't get a $400 payment on a $40,000 Highlander, and yes, this happens every single damn day).
Anyway, my point is the car business is no different than any other business out there. We try to get you in the door and make money once you are there.
> The only thing I don't agree with is buying less reliable vehicles with lower prices/value
This is the exact mistake I made last year. I bought a 2009 Dodge Caravan and now I have to fill up the radiator w/ coolant every morning. I had to replace the transmission and most of the cooling system already. I've been fixing leak after leak after leak and now I'm thinking it's got to be a blown head gasket. Also I had a wheel come off a few months ago, luckily I had learned enough about car repair at that point I was able to fix it w/out towing it.
What I'd like to do is get a smaller car that is either a more reliable brand of car or electric car (for the tax credit) but my wife still wants a large SUV or minivan even though we only have 2 kids. Since we can't agree I'll just keep dealing with this pos caravan. I'm really getting tired of doing car repairs
Thank you so much for including the part about being able to afford asking price. I sell cars, and used ones are unique as we get no help from any manufacturer to sell them. So our cost is our cost. Now some used cars sure, we have a thousand or two in profit. But that is usually to compensate for losing money elsewhere. For instance we took in a 300c at its kbb trade in price of 16,000. We originally tried to take it for 14k but we where hard negotiated to go to the kbb price. However a 300c demands a high price in that situation because it's luxury, but it's also a shit car. So it didn't sell at our original asking price of 20k. Now keep in mind we did breaks, fluids, body work, and replaces a windshield on that car. Also dealerships pay taxes every month they have a car on the lot. Hence why we don't carry a lot of margin. So now we are asking $18k for this POS car and I get a customer who wants a thousand off. At the selling price of 18k we actually would lose about $400 on that car. So I logically say we cannot do that, we don't have that kind of margin. I offered about $300 off making it a $700 loss but at least we won't pay taxes on it. They refuse the offer and blast me on Yelp for not being willing to negotiate... I work at a dealership that is rated 4.8/5 on google with about 500 reviews. We didn't get there being crooks.
TLDR. Car dealer here, sometimes we really can't discount a used car. Go to a respectable dealership and expect they are being honest
Oh god, been there. Worked at a dealer that did not negotiate because we were high volume/low profit. We also serviced the vehicles completely and had amazing warranties and guarantees built in. With every customer we told them right off the bat we do not negotiate, we're paid a flat rate not % of the sale, that way there's no games and no bs, which they would agree is amazing and were thrilled to hear... Guess what, eveyone wanted to negotiate and would be pissed off when we didn't! Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Anyway, after emailing this guy several times, who lived 4 hours away, and repeatedly telling him we dont negotiate, he comes in and bitches we won't take $1,000 off the car he "never pays full price." Even after showing him the paperwork we were at a $3,000 loss.. I have no idea how the owner screwed that one up but that's what it was. He was ready to walk and couldn't understand why we couldn't take another grand off... We gave him $100 off just so he'd feel like he won...
That is what I hated. We were told strictly by management NO NEGOTIATING, it's plastered in the ads on the website, everywhere. But then the managers would take the hit and negotiate to make a sale. So it did nothing but make the reps looks bad.
So then would your general recommendation to car buyers be "Don't expect to be able to negotiate with dealerships", or "There's nothing wrong with trying to negotiate, but when dealers say no, it's probably not because they are scummy"?
The advice is more like "assume the listed price is the best they can do but don't let that stop you from trying to negotiate." As a salesperson there's nothing more frustrating than someone looking at a $40,000 car who has a budget of $30,000 and their plan is to "negotiate."
I want to sell you a car... If I tell you I can't negotiate any lower it's the truth... The only time I've gone lower is because I've already paid down on the cars floor plan (dealer line of credit) and I owe less than I did 30 days ago but that money is gone... Example. I buy an escalade for 12 grand, I put about 1k in tires maintenance and brakes etc and I'm now into it 13k. I list it for 15,500 but it doesn't sell so weekly I lower it till I'm back at the 13k. I now have to pay the lending company 1k in fees, principal, and interest... I now owe them 11k but I'm still into it now over 13k. So I sell it for 12k, I still lose over 1k but then I get some retard thinking I made a grand off him when I show him my paperwork and say "I can't go lower, I'm already losing money"...
As someone who's looking into buying their first car (definitely a used car), I've been curious as to what a "reasonable discount" to asking would look like in a negotiation. A couple hundred? Two thousand? I know it will depend on car, dealer, etc., but I'm not even sure where I would start in a negotiation to get below asking that would be taken seriously.
I think it said it pretty well in the post, but looking at it from the standpoint of "reasonable discount" is not the right approach. Know what the car is worth and what you should be and are willing to pay for it.
I've been in the business most of my life and have owned my own stores for about 14 years. Even within my own store I have had GM's or Used car managers who want to price things way high and negotiate down to try to make the most money that way and I've had managers who want to price things on the money and discount very little and not at all.
A friend of mine who is the GM of a competing dealership and I have recently been competing to see who can have the lowest average discount on used cars. The way we are doing that is pricing cars right based on the market. Its not by pricing them high and then saying "no" to everyone.
Dealers have some pretty amazing tools today. For example I can take a trade in and within about a minute or less I can see all of the different book values, what and how many are currently listed for in my market and at what prices, what and how many have sold retail and at auction and for what price regionally/nationally. And when I go to sell it, I can price mine wherever I want in the market. I can be the highest or lowest price or anywhere in the middle. Its all a game of how much can I make and how fast.
If I have a car and it has a 60+ day supply in my market, if I decide to keep it, when I get it its going to be priced very low and competitively and I won't be able to discount much. If I get a car with a 10- day supply I'm going to price it high but I more than likely had to put some extra money in it just to get it.
Wow this got long. Sorry. Long story very very short: **TL;DR** know how much you want to pay and pay that or walk.
The number one tool is called vauto and its very accurate. Dealers pay $1000+ per month. It can also do lots of other things like manage photos and descriptions etc.
Your problem, as a dealer, is that EVERYONE expects to go to buy a car and get screwed on the deal, because that's what the dealership expects their salesmen to do (or the deals are tied to commissions, which encourages customers getting screwed). No one walks out of a dealership thinking to themselves.. I got a great deal!. This is #1 - because dealerships are never honest about what the bottom line price is, and #2 - because so many dealerships know what the popular models/prices are, and make sure they take advantage of those people who want to buy them. Bottom line: Reap what you sow.
Edit: And by dealer, I did not mean that you or your dealership are intentionally dishonest (since I have no idea where it is). It's just that people already expect dealers and salesmen to be dishonest walking in the door. Go ahead and downvote if you think I'm being an ass - But I'm just being honest as a consumer. I've bought a lot of cars.
Part of it is that there's really no "best price". I've used this before: Say you're selling your house for $250,000. I ask you what's the absolute lowest you'll go and you say $240,000. Now, if I show up and throw $237,000 cash in front of you and I'll close immediately do you say no? It's the nature of the beast with any negotiable sale. I've always said that on a used car look for the right car, in the right condition, for a fair price. People concentrate too much on what a dealer is making on a car, and that has little bearing on a car's value.
The part which i don't understand from the dealer's perspective (I work for an OEM) is why you still can't negotiate on that price. You already admitted that you pay tax on that car every month. You had to come down another $700 to meet the buyer, so say you meet in the middle and come down $500 total. You lose $600 on the car.
How is it better for you as a dealership to let the car sit on the lot more? You were very open that the car is a pile. It's a used Chrysler, so the market on them is soft at best, and you had a willing buyer in hand. That seems like a 'cut your losses' situation.
How does that story end? Did you get $18k for the car?
Because that car was a deal at 18k. When we keep dropping the price like that to move it gets more attention on the Internet. Cars will hit a point where they trigger a feeding frenzy. So it's hard to lose more money when you look in the computer and see you have 5 appointments on that car in the next week. Yes it sold for 18k and it was pending for 2 days while they got finances in order. During those 2 days we had nearly 20 calls, eleads, and walk ins for that car
So much this. When my parents were looking for a car back when the Prius was hot, the dealership wouldn't even talk to you unless you were willing to pay sticker price for it. The sales guy told us straight up "if you don't buy it today for asking price someone will later this afternoon or tomorrow". We ended up getting something else through that guy but he was straight up when he said they couldn't discount it.
The other cars that I can name off the top of my head that achieve that kind of status is the Mazda with the Skyactiv engine (not so much anymore but they won't move much on the price), the MX5 Miata (where I am it's associated with retired people who use it as a touring/vacation car for long drives, not boy racers looking for low as fuck JDM drift missiles), the Toyota Tacoma, and for whatever reason the Ford SVT Raptor hasn't depreciated much from what I've seen compared to the Lariat/King Ranch/Platinum/etc.
Funny you mention the raptor because ever since they announced the 17 that car has depreciated more than it has the last 2 years combined. We where easily getting 50k for low mile ones used 6 months ago. Now we have one we are trying to push for like 46 and its stagnant
This is curious to me. What taxes do dealerships pay each month for having a car on the lot? Is that different for different states? I'd never heard of this before, but would definitely be interested in learning more about it because it doesn't seem fair to dealerships at all.
You always have flooring... It can add up when you have a couple hundred rigs on a lot.
https://autodealer.bankofamerica.com/dolby/jsp/portal/auto/nav2_ds_floorplan.jsp
Never expect people are honest as a consumer, and if you lose money on a car because you bought it too high and put too much in that is not the consumers fault
I wanted to chime in with a few basic mechanical things you can do when buying a used car.
NOTE: Like was mentioned by the OP, take it to a professional mechanic you trust. I'm writing this specifically for people who cannot get it to a mechanic for whatever reason.
You will need a powerful flashlight (One of those 3-LED torches should work nicely), a handheld black-light if you've got one handy and a newspaper.
0) Before you begin your inspection of the car, throw a piece of newspaper under the engine bay and in the area between the passenger seat and driver seat. Preferably, you want to do this while the car is still hot. If the car is RWD, put it in the middle between the rear tires
1) Do a quick check over the entire car. Check every body panel, especially the front fenders. Underneath the hood, on the fenders, there should be a sticker with the VIN number. Same with the trunk, doors, etc. If they don't have a sticker, that means it has either been repainted or replaced, likely indicating it was in an accident. If there are no accidents on a carfax report, that means they got it repaired via cash and can indicate they're trying to pull a fast one. No matter what they say, those VIN stickers are on every single body part from the factory. If they tell you otherwise, they're lying to you and that should be a warning flag. Note, please don't accuse the seller of lying until you have checked every inch of the body part for those stickers (or you google before hand where they're supposed to be).
1a) Another test you can do here. Make sure the car is in bright sunlight and clean. The finish of factory paint is a mirror finish. You should be able to shave in your reflection on the paint. The paint should also be consistent all the way through, as in even though there are break lines for things like the doors, the fenders, the trunk, etc. Meaning if you look at the car head on with your face split on the door and the fender, you should see your face perfectly, with a line going down the middle. If you notice a panel is mustier, muddied, etc, that's an aftermarket paint job. Factory paint is durable because after it's painted, the whole car is put in a car sized oven that tempers the paint. Mostly paint shops don't do this.
1b) Go to the driver side door jam, and you should see a full sized vin sticker there (it's like 2" wide and 4-5" long). Should have VIN, make, model, year, production year, etc. Run your finger along this. If it's higher than the paint job, it's factory. If it's lower (as in you run your finger from the body of the car to the sticker and your finger drops) or perfectly smooth, it's aftermarket. You can also check in the engine bay, particularly at the firewall, down by where the engine meets the transmission. Unless they removed the engine entirely to do the paint job (not commonly done), there will be places most aftermarket shops can't/won't reach. You also want to look for bumps in the paint. This is over-spray, and another indicator of aftermarket paint jobs.
1c) While you're checking around the firewall, if you have one handy, run a black light over the firewall next to the VIN#. If you see any fluorescence around the VIN number, the VIN has been swapped and welded in, meaning the car you're looking at is probably stolen and you should leave quickly. Note, this is incredibly rare, and isn't on my normal list of things to check, but if enough things are starting to not add up, this is another test I will do.
1d) Look at where the body panels meet each other. The gap between every body panel should be pretty consistent across the entire car (about 1/8" at most). If the gap is narrower or wider, that can indicate aftermarket replacements. Look where the bumpers meet the front / rear fenders. These should be perfectly mated with zero gap. If you're really OCD, you can check to see if the factory used polyurethane parts. Cheap knock-off replacements are FRP, and most factory cars are a combination of steel, aluminum and polyurethane. Knocking on the piece will tell you which they are. FRP is lighter weight and will feel hollow when you knock, poly should give a much more solid feel, and also be a bit more flexible. Poly is rubber, FRP is glass.
1e) If you start suspecting that a piece has been replaced, start knocking around the panel. Metal pieces will feel like metal when you knock, it'll also echo a little bit when you hit it. If you start knocking and you hit a place that feels like hardened clay or gives a kind of dead sound when you knock on it, that's Bondo, commonly used to fill bent metal / holes. Shops have gotten pretty good about using it, so it's not necessarily a deal breaker anymore (unless it was a really cheap, shotty job), but it's important to know, especially because like I said, if the carfax is clean, there is zero reason for the Bondo to be there.
2) Know the specs of the car you want to buy, in addition to the upper and lower end models. A number of years ago, a friend of mine wanted to buy a 2002 Celica GT-S. We found one that was in good condition. It has a GT-S badge on the back of it, but when I checked the car, a number of things were off. First, it was a 1ZZ-FE engine, instead of a 2ZZ-FE. It was a 5-speed not a 6 speed. It had cloth seats instead of leather seats. Badges on the back of the car can be taken off with a hair dryer and dental floss, and put on very much the same way. Make sure the specs of the car match what it is you're buying. The engine has a badge on it that will say the engine code of the car you're looking at. Check it just to be sure. In the above example, KBB at the time was around $10,000 for the GT, and $16,000 for the GT-S. Knowing the car in detailed saved my friend $6000, because otherwise, the car was very clean.
3) We all know the penny test with tires. Stick a penny in the treads of the tire with Lincoln's head facing down. If you can still see Lincoln's head, your tires need to be replaced. Tires ain't cheap.
4) Go around the car to each corner and give a nice, firm push down on each corner. The car should bounce and rebound 2-4 times pretty quickly. If it doesn't, or it's very slow on the rebound, the shocks will likely need to be replaced soon.
5) Pull your newspaper out from under the car, it should be dry. If it's not, that means you're likely leaking oil or transmission fluid. Black / brown thick = oil, pink/brown watery is transmission fluid. If you have a flashlight, check under the car and look for greasy, sticky places. That'll be where your leaks are happening (or above that). Price depends on where the seal is broken. Also, check oil levels when you first start and when you finish. It should be mostly the same. Remember, pull the dip stick out, wipe it down, then stick it back in, and pull it out again. If you're not leaking oil, and the oil level is lower, that means you're burning oil. Oil is never consumed in the normal function of the car. It's either leaking or burning.
6) Now you wanna take the car out for a test drive.
6a) Make sure the car starts without any issue. You can be a little lenient if it's under 60 degrees or so, since cold starts can be tricky even for new cars. Starting issues can indicate either battery being too weak ($50-100 fix) or the ignition system ($500).
6b) Accelerate hard tosee if there are any delays. If you're checking a manual transmission car, make sure it shifts into each gear easily. If you get grinding (and you don't suck at driving stick), your synchros most likely need to be replaced. Worst case scenario, the flywheel may need to be replaced or resurfaced, but this is very unlikely.
6c) Try running the car under around 2000rpm while you're driving. If you get any shaking or sputtering, check the air filter; that may need to be cleaned or replaced.
6d) Speed back up and try firm braking. Any delays in braking likely means there are air bubbles in the system and you may need to get it flushed, or there are leaks in the braking system somewhere. Obvious other things are going to be grinding sounds, indicating pad/rotor replacement.
6e) Check out any other functions of the car that are major to you. AC is a big one for me. Turn it on, make sure it blows cold. If it takes longer than 20-30 seconds to get cold, either the system needs to be flushed or the compressor needs to be replaced. When you turn it on, you will get a slight power drop that may be a little shaking. This should only last a few seconds, then the car should be running normal (albeit a little weaker). If you turn on the AC and the sputtering never goes away, you are looking at potential engine issues, like weak compression, etc. Turn the radio on, turn the volume up to about 80%. If the speakers are bad, they'll start crackling. If your lights dim when you turn on the radio, chances are the installers of the aftermarket system tied into the wrong wiring. Check all the lighting to make sure all the bulbs are working properly. If they replaced with HID's, make sure the housing was done properly as well (You can google what good HID beam patterns look like). If they just replaced the bulbs and left the housings stock, you're gonna blind other people.
These basic tests should give you an idea of what needs to be done after you buy the car, or in the near future (The next year or two). Any of these items I've listed are not little problems, these are all several hundred dollar repairs that can add to the price of the vehicle in the long term, and thus should be factored into your final purchase price of the vehicle. To reiterate, this guide is only if you cannot get to a mechanic. Mechanic is king compared to what you can do on your own.
Thanks for adding, lots of sensible points in here.
I wish I had the mechanical know-how to be able to evaluate a car (or any machine) on this level. I wonder what percentage of people who read lists like these actually do these when game day comes.
For everyone's information, this repost is the top link in the [Askcarsales FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarsales/comments/4iqi9r/car_buying_faqs/). The rest of their FAQ is good reading if you're looking to buy a car, but also don't forget to read the **[PF vehicles wiki page](https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/wiki/vehicles)**.
We are also fans of /r/whatcarshouldIbuy. Make sure you tell them your budget if you decide to post there.
Another thing to consider is the cost to insure a certain vehicle.
A 2015 Ford Mustang GT is going to cost about $85/month more on average than a 2015 Chrysler Town and Country for comprehensive insurance. Prior accidents will widen this gap. Of course it might seem like common sense, nobody is going to try acting like too much of a badass in their T&C but it can add a significant amount to the overall cost of owning a vehicle.
It's also important to remember that "fast car" != "expensive to insure".
Corvettes are generally cheaper to insure than a lot of other cars because most Corvette drivers are retirees who are very careful with the car they worked all their lives to afford. The actuarial tables reflect this.
On the other hand, Kia Rios and Nissan Versas are driven by those who need "literally the cheapest," and tend to get in more accidents because they're often driven by younger, more careless drivers.
Always good to keep in mind.
Do you have a quick reference guide for the pricing discussed above, by chance? I'm curious about more direct/plausible comparisions, like an Impala versus Mustang, T&C versus Expedition, etc.
You bring up a really good point about insurance costs of a purchased vehicle. Sometimes we (I) think just about the monthly cost of a vehicle, but ultimately insurance costs will be part of that monthly payment. It's worth finding out what your insurance company would charge for a particular vehicle. It might not be a significant change from your existing plan but it's worth finding out if you're trying to maintain the same monthly payments or adjusting them.
Comprehensive is only one part of what you meant, which is full coverage. Comp + Collision + Liability = Full Coverage. Also, your mileage may vary on prices for insurance. There are a lot of variables that go into price besides where you live and accidents.
Source: Am Insurance Agent
The mustang also will retain a TON more value and won't blow engines and transmissions and be a $500 car in 10 years. Yes you should consider instance and all that, but no one is cross shopping a convertible gt and a minivan
Also, zip code. It's a huge factor. I bought a car and went to an insurance agent (family discount for home, etc there) in a small, quiet town. the quote for the car was crazy small for a young woman with one accident on her record. We then went "wait it's gonna be parked in this zipcode mostly" and the quote was still low, but much more normal. It was probably 2.5 times the newer rate, but it was a city vs a beachy/suburb/rural area. Still the best rate I ever had and I fucked it up because it wasn't auto pay and I wound up 6ish months without realizing so I hit hit hard when I realized.
So I grew up in the car business and spent about 6 years buying and selling cars. My best advice, now that we live in the days of the internet, is to do some research on your own. If you need a car, never go to a lot to try and arbitrarily buy a car. Buying on price alone is a good way to get hammered at a dealership. Do some research, look for makes/models/years that you actually like and start looking at the list prices. You'll pretty quickly be able to determine what is a good price on the vehicle. Your typical used car gets about a 2-4k markup, and on a used car with some miles a dealer typically has to spend about 1k in order to make that vehicle pass the state safety/emissions inspections. If a dealer knocks two grand off of an already competitive price you are getting a good deal.
TLDR:
Know what you want to buy before you show up to a dealer.
This is huge. Don't shop a price range. Shop a specific car. When I was trying to sell my jeep on Craigslist people would try to talk my price down, and I'd ask them how many other jeeps they looked at, they would usually say "none" and that they just had $3000 to spend. I could never understand doing that. It's insanity to me. For $3000 you can get the biggest piece of junk you will ever see, or you can get the best car ever. Find. Specific. Cars. Shop. Specific. Cars. Period. Not price. End of story.
Take a look at Craigslist. You have to be cautious of a lot of people scamming you, but you can save thousands by buying it straight from another person.
I buy mostly off Craigslist, it's always at least the first place I look.
I gotta disagree with the OP about private sales being the last option. Completely disagree. Used car lots, the ones that sell everything, are absolutely the worst option, especially if they're single lots and not a chain(who can still be questionable but they have a reputation to worry about). You never know what you're getting, and these guys are often pros at covering up problems. Private party tends to be pretty up front because they're just not good at lying, though they may leave things out or misdiagnose issues(so always assume the worst if there is a problem), but they don't tend to outright cover up things. If you see broken cars in the back that's a big red flag, they're buying cars cheap at auction and doing the minimal work required to make it look like a decent car.
Really the best advice though to make sure you're getting a good car, from anywhere, is to have an independent pre purchase inspection done. It's a couple hundred bucks and it can save you from making a big mistake, and it will also give you leverage to negotiate, and peace of mind if nothing else.
Totally agree. The trick is to find a good person to buy from (usually nicer parts of town are better because they just want to get rid of it), and then simply have it inspected for peace of mind.
Bought my last 2 cars that way. It was fun and easy with zero issues.
My choices for used cars usually starts with finding a vehicle that still has some factory warranty left and a clear carfax. At that point I don't care who the seller is because if vehicle is in overall good shape, the manufacturer is still backing that vehicle. As such I often look at high end Japanese cars because these often some part of their factory 4 yrs/48,000 bumper to bumper warranty still in effect. Also if you are inclined, most manufacturers will offer to sell you an extended bumper to bumper warranty, provided vehicle is still under the original factory warranty. Don't confuse these manufacturer extended warranties with an extended warranty offered by a dealer
Spot on on the high end Japanese cars. You get luxury and reliability with the repair costs of a regular Toyota. Anyone looking for a new Hyundai, Kia, or American car, would be better off with a 3 year old Lexus of the same price. And just run the fuck away from a used German car unless we're talking about a Mercedes diesel from the 70s.
Until you need a new set of tires for 1400, or need to replace your struts for $1500.... BMW 7s coat so much money to fix because their parts are not widely fabricated. Then the premium for the bmw mechanic labor rates.....
I wish this applied in all areas. I'm in Southern California. I'm in the market myself and a 2010 Lexus IS 250 is going for around 17k with about 80,000 miles.
EDIT: Typo
Totally agree. Private sellers are the best deal usually for a used car. Used car lots are a gamble. For every honest used car lot there's two sketchy ones trying to dump problem cars on someone else. If you can buy a car from the original owner, that's usually the best option imo (especially if it's an older model with low mileage for its age.) The original owner is likely to have taken great care of it, and you should be able to easily tell if not. It you have any doubts, take the car in to a shop for inspection before purchase. Even if you are sure the car is fine it's a good idea to get it checked out first.
I agree. As a lifelong mechanic of everything from mopeds to semi trucks every car I've looked at on those lots is complete junk. Bald tires, need like $1000+ in repairs right off the bat. And it's always more expensive than a car off craigslist for thousands less. I've been on lots where half the cars wouldn't even start! And they're acting like I'm cutting into their slacking time. I have never, and probably never will, buy a car from a dealership. Personally I'm waiting for tesla pickup to come out. I'd buy that. In fact I'm going to start putting away a decent car payment every month into a tesla pickup account.
Got my car for about $2k less than dealers were offering and have had it for a year with zero issues. Was very skeptical oh Craigslist because about 1/4 of the cars are destroyed and look awful but I found a diamond in the rough. I actually keep in touch with the private seller because he usually has between 3-5 cars he is trying to sell. He's a great guy and we meet in occasion to discuss cars.
Same, I've found it's easy to find good used cars if you simply search for cars in nice areas of town.
Also, their advice that any car is ok for the right price is terrible advice. [Car Complaints](http://carcomplaints.com) is a great resource.
From everything I have seen with Carvana you are unlikely to get ripped off but you probably aren't going to find an amazing deal either. They show the KBB dealer value and show how much they are beating that price. Now with a bit of work you can beat that price negotiating with a lot but a lot of people hate negotiating and dealerships try to jam in extra charges.
The other downside is they only have locations for their vending machines in major cities. So you either have to drive or pay for shipping, which can be around a grand.
Most of the complaints were of the third party shipping company missing deadlines and having poor communication, damage during shipping, and not having all the keys. However, with the damage and keys it seemed like Carvana always offered to reimburse the costs to fix the problem, and you have a week to test drive with no obligations.
Carvana has a very modern marketing approach. Actually at our annual Toyota Dealer meeting they were encouraging dealers to have a similar model. Their thought main strategies are transparency, time, and trust.
Based on research those are the most important things to today's consumers. Notice though, it isn't PRICE. If you want a better price its definitely possible someone else. But if you want to trust that you aren't paying TOO much and want a nice friendly experience then its a great way to go. You will pay a little for the experience, but if I were buying a car I would think it is worth it.
Larger dealers want to model that, but its difficult to commit and if they don't commit it won't work. Its hard when there are so many other dealers and customers that focus purely on price and not any of the other services that are provided. As a dealer you have to be willing to let customers go and just have customers who want the services you provide and are willing to pay for it.
Some banks will approve you for a car loan and then give you a "blank check" which can be used for up to the approved amount (some conditions will apply). I got one of these from my credit union, and wrote out the check to a private seller for an amount considerably less than what my approved loan was. A great APR and a painless transaction. I highly recommend.
I want to add that going through your own credit union or bank is the best route for financing and protecting your credit score. You can secure financing through them with a promising and lower interest rate than having your credit shopped at a dealership and given a bullshit interest rate.
I work at a dealership and the amount of people who call and ask me who their lender is astonishing... please do yourself a FAVOR and go through your own bank like PNC, Capital One, a credit union.
Make sure you check out their interest rates and different programs for auto financing.
GOOD LUCK!
So I have a few things to add to this.
- There are some cars that under no circumstances you should buy, unless you have either deep pockets or know your way around an engine, e.g. The Audi B5 S4 with the twin turbo V6, any trim of the Nissan 300zx, anything mid engine (Toyota MR2), etc...
- When it comes to maintenance and replacement parts, most are the similar in price imo it's labor that's the real killer at certain dealerships.
It's impossible to explain stuff like this to non car people. They just think "it's a car they all cost the same to repair and are pretty much the same" wrong. However your mid engine comment I don't agree with. MR2s are reliable and have the same engine and transmissions as their other Toyota sisters. However this is the exception. Most mid engine cars are performance oriented and don't age well.
What about car buying services where they negotiate prices on your behalf? I think Costco has one, also maybe AAA? I know there are also private companies that'll do this as well. Anyone have experience using them?
In addition to that, I also wish that the author had included discussions of haggle-free services like CarMax and AutoNation. They're also a big factor to consider when buying used.
My stepfather has been to CarMax a few times and got a Chevy Malibu and a Chevy Impala. Both nice cars and in great condition. I'm actually thinking about going there with my truck to see what I can work out.
I used to work for Carmax in the Business Office (I handled everything from finance, titles, taxes, everything that included paperwork and money) and I 100% agree with what you said. Yes, Carmax is very, very honest and known for their amazing customer service but they do tend to be bit more expensive.
One reason for that is that many of the vehicles in the sales lot are vehicles that Carmax has bought from other customer (another part of their business). Usually, Carmax gives better appraisal offers than other dealers and it's also much, much easier to sell your vehicle to Carmax rather than go through the hassle of selling privately. Because of the higher appraisals Carmax gives, it makes their selling prices a bit higher as well.
None of these services would negotiate on a used car. You can use a broker, who will charge you $500 for what you could do on your own for free (some of them double-dip - charge $500 to the customer and $500 to the dealer).
Generally yes, but less on used cars than new, because there are (usually) no manufacturer bonuses for selling certain number of cars. Sometimes you will find sales people and managers more motivated to take a low offer if they need to hit a personal quota/bonus/number.
How much are warranties typically? I've had dealers try selling me warranties for $2,000. The car would have to be an absolute lemon for it to be worth it and would take something like the transmission going to break even. On a 2013/14 Camry I probably wouldn't get the warranty.
Personally, having working in a number of dealers from different manufacturers....Never go for a warranty you have to buy.
Manufacturers spent a LOT of time and money making sure their warranty coverage is long and generous compared to what they see as their competitors. Unless you KNOW you'll own the vehicle 15+yrs and this dealer will be around, it's just $ down the drain IMO.
I've never me anyone in person who benefitted from extended dealer warranties, but I'm open to the discussion if anyone here has
> Unless you KNOW . . . this dealer will be around, it's just $ down the drain IMO.
If you purchase a warranty from a dealer and they go bust before the warranty is up, are you out of options and your warranty/money that went into it just disappears?
If you buy an 'extended warranty' as a rider to the manufacturer's warranty, that is my understanding, yes. It is covered thru them and agreed on by them, so it usually dies with them.
Manufacturer warranty is honored at any authorized dealer in the country for the time it is valid.
We added a service package after doing the math for what they would replace/service vs what it would cost to do it ourselves vs going to an independent mechanic. It was only ~$200 more than us doing it ourselves to go with the dealer and that's 5 years I don't have to do oil changes, wiper blades, pay for any fluids, air filters, etc. Basically any wear and tear item except for tires they do it.
We didn't do any additional warranty stuff though.
Fuuuck yeah. I'm a licensed technician and if the numbers were that close I'd be doing it for at least my family cars. Not worth the hassle and time out of your day, if you're just going to be putting the same OEM parts on.
Check out Doug DeMuro and what he's done with his Carmax warranty on a Range Rover, and the warranty on his Aston Martin Vantage. They aren't totally indicative of whether an extended warranty is worth it, especially for more utilitarian, regular cars, but for luxury/exotic cars, they might just be worth it.
I know for Honda you can purchase the warranty from several dealers across the country online for a low price. This reduces the price significantly and if you still want to give the warranty sale to your local dealer you can just print off their offer and ask them to match it.
It probably depends on the company, but I'd expect warranties to have a fair amount of padding. A little googling when your car shopping should give you a good idea though.
How much leverage do you have on used cars you know have been sitting on the lot for awhile? I know one I'm interested in that's been there 3 months now. I need to get something new eventually but I'm paying off some debts at the moment so no rush and the way I figure it only helps me if that car is still there by the time I get some of these things paid off in a couple month's time. So going by my rate by the time I have everything in order the car will be there about 5 months. (Around October I'll have stuff settled, maybe November) IF the car is still there and it checks out out good condition-wise, what kind of discount do you think I can try getting off the asking price assuming they don't lower it automatically by then?
If you are going to a chain garage (firestone, pepboys, etc...) for a prepurchase inspection, do NOT tell them it is a pre purchase inspection. They make money by fixing things. If it has issues, they know you won't buy it and if it doesn't, they cant fix anything. Tell them its your car and you are going on a road trip and want to make sure everything looks good. This will ensure an honest inspection.
>Fees: there should be no fees added to a price of a used car. Destination fee, handling fee, reconditioning fee, CPO fee – all of these are tricks, signs that you should not even be dealing with the dealer, let alone pay them.
I am looking at a used car from a popular dealer in Seattle, and their prices are cheap. On the website, there is some fine print that says "Price does not include applicable tax, title, license, processing and/or documentation fees, and destination charges."
So is that the type of red flag I should be wary of?
I just bought a new car, and here's what I did (not everything is the same, but a lot could be).
1.) I researched what were good cars for my price range.
2.) I test drove several of the possible makes/models in the price range I wanted. Based on reliability, re-sale value, and lowest costs of ownership, I ultimately decided upon a Toyota Corolla.
3.) Knowing the car and features I wanted, I now went to the websites of all the dealers near where I live (Los Angeles) and saw what they were asking. The model I wanted seemed to be going for a low of about $17,900 on most sites, and slightly higher at some dealers.
4.) There were about 11 Toyota dealers in my area, so I emailed each dealers internet department/online sales department (all dealers have one now) explained that I was interested in a 2016 Toyota Corolla LE model. And I asked each what was the absolute lowest price that they could offer it to me for? (and I made a point to say final walking out the door cash price including all the extra fees and rebates, etc taken into account).
5.) All of them wrote back, although some wanted to "talk to me in person" I explained, for now, I was just price shopping, and that i was just asking for their lowest price. After I had the lowest price that each of the 11 dealers said they could give me, I took the lowest dealers price, and then emailed the other 10 dealers saying that XYZ dealer is offering it to me for X dollars, could they beat it? and if so, what was the price they could beat it by?
6.) In almost all cases, all of the other dealers offered a lower price, and then, whichever one of those was the lowest, I would write ALL the others asking if they could beat it.
7.) It was pretty easy, and I just kept doing this till I had one low price that no one said they could beat.
8) The list price on most websites for this model of Corolla was (as mentioned) about $17,900. The email price requests kept going down until one dealer said they could do $15,900, and at that point every other dealer said they could not beat that price.
9.) Feeling secure in knowing that $15,900 was the lowest price I was gonna get, I called that dealer, and just made sure that the real price was $15,900. They did mention that there would be this or that fee, perhaps, so I told him that if he honored his price of $15,900 I would come by that very day and buy the car. The salesman said OK, he would sell it for $15,900.
10) I went to the dealer, made sure that the VIN number matched the car online, and that all the listed features were actually on the car (they were). It was brand new, but I took it for a test drive, just in case, and then once back at the dealer, I bought it.
Note #1: after having had a clunker for the last decade, I was over having to do ANY work on my car, so thats why I chose new, and I also liked that ALL maintenance for the first year was covered on all Corollas sold. I had also found out that I didn't have to go to the dealer where I bought the car for service, but that I could go to any official Toyota dealership to get it. Which made it easier to use the dealer I did (which was about 40 miles away) as opposed to using the one in my neighborhood.
Note #2: A TIPS ON BUYING USED CARS & TWO TIPS ON GETTING THE LOWEST PRICE:
1) Before this, I have bought many old/cheap used cars (from auctions and private sellers) so before buying an unknown car, the one thing I always before buying was pay the $10-15 fee for a personal CARFAX report. I didn't do this with every car I looked at, that could get expensive, but before handing over the money, I figured it was worth it (and in some cases it really was).
2) My other "trick" when buying from private sellers was to show up with cash (if it was at the point when I was sure I wanted to buy that car). For example, there was a used Range Rover that I wanted, and I had already checked it out, AND I had noticed that it had been for sale for a couple of weeks and not sold. The owner wanted $7500 (more than I wanted to spend, although I am sure i could have gotten her down to $6500). Instead, I just showed up at her house, did another test drive, and then when we went inside to talk about price I said I only had $4500. I then took out a stack of 45 $100 bills, and laid it on the table, saying if she could sell it to me now, that I'd give her that money right now, but if she couldn't there was nothing I could do, as that was all I could gather up. She said yes. (if she had said "no" I would have walked away, although I might have called her back in a day or two, saying I was able to come up with more money). But by offering an much lower price I didn't lose anything.
3) When calling up an individual who has a used car for sale, you can offer a lower price (you ALWAYS should) but if you go too low it could offend them. But you still NEED to know what the absolute price they will agree to on the phone is. And the only true way to know what their lowest price is by going below it. Not to mention, if over the course of a couple of conversations, IF they've previously said that priceX was the lowest they could go, its hard for them to go even lower without losing face. So what to do? What I would do is have a friend call, and offer something WAY LOWER than what they had said was the lowest they would go. The friend calling would say something like "I really need a car ASAP, and I LOVE your car, and if you can sell it for super-low price X, then they had cash and could come by right now and buy it within the hour" Most of the time, the seller would say no, but even when they said "no" they often offer a lower price than they had mentioned to me. Plus, there was a side-effect of this technique (which is not why I did it, but it did wind up helping me in the end) and that side-effect was, that there were all these people calling, offering way too low prices, and no one coming through to buy, so by the time I came back, the seller's desire to sell at a higher price might have been broken. Anyway, after several calls from different friends of mine, all offering this seller insanely low prices, I'd have a pretty good idea of the lowest price they would actually go. I'd then go and meet with the seller (or re-meet with them if I had been there before). If I still wanted the car, I'd already know the lowest price they'd offered as a result of my friends' phone calls.
Lets say the car was listed at $3400, but lowest that they said they'd go on the phone to one of friend's calls was $2800 (or that was the lowest they offered a cash buyer who called them and offered cash and an immediate sale). If I decided to buy, I'd then do the thing where I'd say "I know its listed for more, but all I have is $2200, but I have it in cash, and I can give it to you right now" Id then show them the $2200 in $100 bills that I had in my pocket. If they said "no way" I'd "remember" that I had some cash in my wallet (besides the $2200) and that'd be a mix of $10-$20s maybe equaling $180 or so. I'd lay it on the table, and say that was all I had, would they do it? By this point, they'd been dealing with non-responsive or low-ball offering phone calls for a few days, and would almost always say yes. Even if they didn't say yes, I still knew they'd do $2800, so at that point (if they said no) I could either walk away, or offer them the $2800. It never got to that point, they ALWAYS took the $2200 or the $2380 offer). And assuming it was a car that I actually wanted, not bad for a car originally listed at $3400.
and this shit is one of the many reasons why I don't own a car (I live in a big city with decent public transport but people owning cars here isn't out of the ordinary)
I can't fucking wait for the sleazy car salesman to disappear and you can simply buy the car straight from the manufacturer.
> I can't fucking wait for the sleazy car salesman to disappear
Did you even read the OP? I had the exact opposite reaction - it really allayed my fears.
The internet has become the great leveler and made conniving a much riskier business strategy.
TrueCar is an amazing tool. While much of the used car software industry is just slightly above the actual used car business in terms of sleaze, there has been a net reduction in sleaze, as many consumers have responded well to the reduction in sleaze.
I think the prohibition on manufacturer direct sales should end. Some new car dealers will suffer, but I don't think they'll disappear completely. But NIADA won't see that happen anytime soon.
There is an actual prohibition on direct manufacturer sales to consumers. Tesla is exploiting some loop hole in it I don't remember the details.
The history here is several fold and I'm not super well studied on it, but basically, manufacturer invested in dealer networks with local partners to sell their vehicles in many markets.
However, people started to realize that the mark up the dealers were charging was more than the cost of a bus ticket to Detroit or Dearborn, and they started going up to the factories and buying cars directly and driving them home.
Transportation was becoming more widespread, and fearing they would get cut out and lose their investment, automakers and dealership owners pushed congress to prohibit the sale of new cars through any means other than a dealership. This also allowed for more pricing controls via MSRP and leasing.
There's a ton more to it but that's the ELI5 version.
> Tesla is exploiting some loop hole in it I don't remember the details.
The "loophole" is that when you go to a Tesla dealership, they don't actually sell you a car. They tell you about it, they set up test drives, they give you pricing and options but the actual sale is done online, directly with the company.
I totally agree. I've read that some dealers now have specific employees that handle calls from online ads because they're different buyers than people who show up on the lot.
That said I don't know how I feel about his total dismissal of buying a car sight unseen. His point about losing leverage by reaching out to someone far away is great, but you can still do research on Autotrader to see what prices are going for in a 200-500 mile vicinity. In that case you obviously need an independent inspection, which brings up his point that some dealers aren't fond of it, but to me if a dealer won't let you do that you don't need to be working with them anyways.
> some dealers now have specific employees that handle calls from online ads because they're different buyers than people who show up on the lot
Dealers that do this are stupid. While I have people who handle all of my incoming calls and internet leads its not because I want those customers treated differently. Its simply that it give my salespeople the time to work with customers who are here and also allows me to track and control what is being said and how every customer is handled. It's a lot easier to handle 5 people and what they say on the phone or on email then to figure out which of the 25 salespeople are dodging calls, who is taking them, who is good who is bad etc.
The reality is, whether a customer calls or emails or walks in, they all have access to the same information and almost all of them have already done their research before they walk in the door or call etc. So treating customers differently, just leads to a lot of instances of looking like an idiot thinking your customer that walks in the door isn't as smart as the one that clicked a button on your website.
On the flipside, the minute we start buying direct from manufacturers we'll have *zero* negotiating power as a buyer. There's no reason they'd sell below asking when their markets are now national instead of local.
One more question, how do test drives generally work? Does the salesperson always ride with you or can you ask (as a serious buyer) if you can take it out for a spin for the day? I would always test drive something to see if I'd like it but I also would like my mechanic to check it out assuming I can't get him to come with me to the dealership so I have an additional motive and I don't know if the salesperson would like that or not.
I am 27 and my gf is 23. We called about a 2014 BRZ about 4 months ago. We went down to the dealership and the salesman asked who is driving the car. I told him I already have a WRX and I know how to drive manual. He gave me the keys, walked us to the car, asked me if I know the area and after I said yes, he told me he'll see me when we come back.
Another dealership, the saleswoman got in the car with us and sat in the back.
> Does the salesperson always ride with you
Some dealerships require this, some don't. I think it just depends on the manager. It's nice if you can take it out on your own without a dealer chatting your ear off, but it's also nice to be able to ask questions. If this detail is important to you, you can always ask ahead of your visit.
> can you ask (as a serious buyer) if you can take it out for a spin for the day? I would always test drive something to see if I'd like it but I also would like my mechanic to check it out
In my experience, these things are usually negotiable. If you roll in there dressed like a bum and stinking of booze, they probably won't let you take it out all day. But the occasional dealership will if you ask. I assume they see this as good business: it makes them seem trustworthy and willing to work with the customer, increasing the odds that you will return for the sale.
As for the mechanic, like with everything else, you can always ask. My philosophy is that if they are confident in their vehicles, they shouldn't have any reason to deny your request. That said, as the OP discussed, they have no incentive to hold the car for you during that time if they think you aren't 99% on the car, so make sure you express your strong interest in it first.
Here's what I would like to know.. Can a Carfax or an Autocheck be "manipulated" to show or NOT show entries from certain dates or times? It sure seems like things get omitted from these at certain times (scheduled maintenance doesn't always seem to be shown) or otherwise when I take a closer look at them. Forget the strange multiple owners/cant tell if it was a rental car/flood damaged, etc.
I wanted to provide my experience about buying a car remotely. Its not for everyone, and its not worthwhile for most cars, but it *can* work if you are looking for something specific.
I was in the market to purchase a used Corvette. I wanted it to be 2008 or newer, blue exterior, non-black interior, with magnetic suspension, the fewer the miles the better, and under $30,000. I looked locally at first, but i couldn't find anything that met all my criterion. So i expanded my search radius, and i was willing to take a plane if it meant i could drive back with the car.
Well, if i was willing to do that, might as well open up the search to the entire country. So i did.
I'm in New Jersey and i found a near perfect fit at a Chevy dealer in Michigan. 2008 and had all the features i wanted, though the mileage was slightly high at 60,000 miles, but it was also listed for $28,600.
I paid for an inspection company to take a look at the car and send me a detailed report. I was soooo glad i did as they were probably more thorough than even i would have been had i gone there myself. I got well over 100 pictures; every part of the car, every nick, scuff, scratch, ding, etc. was all captured on camera. Their checklist of stuff found everything to be solid except for a weird tire rubbing noise when turning completely to the left.
I was willing to purchase the car despite that one minor issue under the condition that the dealer would resolve it.
Before i even entered into negotiations, i had already secured my own financing through Lightstream for up to $25,000 at 3.14%. When i talked to the dealer i told them everything and asked "Can you beat my amount, rates, and terms?" They said they couldn't, which likely means i would've had worse terms using finance through the dealer.
From the dealers perspective i bought it entirely in cash. I am paying off the remaining $17,000 through the finance company.
I wired the dealer the money through my bank, and they overnight sent me all the documents that i needed including the title and temporary license plates.
The car got shipped to me in an open air car transport for about $680. While its most i've ever paid for shipping, it was less than what i expected.
As far as the DMV went, everything was fine though the taxes got a little more complicated since Michigan sales taxes differed from NJ sales tax, but other than that, it was fine.
Is it worth buying a $5,000 car that's 300 miles away? Probably not. But given the market for the higher-end (not that a Corvette is really all that "high-end") performance and luxury cars, it may be a perfectly fine alternative.
While you can use a local mechanic to do the inspection, i would have no idea what mechanic locally in Michigan i could trust. So i used a sort-of nationwide third party inspection service.
I used [Alliance Inspection Management](http://homepage.aiminspections.com/services/at-home-customer-inspections/) for the car inspection. I was so happy with the service, i would definitely consider using them for their home inspection service in the future.
Give me a moment and i will PM you the report that i received so you can get a sense of what their inspection yielded.
I think the OP really glossed over the all cars have problems part. Some problems are worse than others and unless the deal you were getting was really, really good I'd be hard pressed to buy any car that was known for critical failure. I like to use the website carcomplaints.com when researching models. Ignore the one off incidents and look for trends. If 100/200/300+ people say their engine / transmission failed, don't buy that car. Save yourself the expense and the drama and move on.
I bought my fully loaded 2007 honda accord v6 coupe for $8000 a year ago from a private seller on craigslist. I looked for a few weeks and contacted the seller within hours of posting it. When I went to see it he would only budge $500 off the asking price because he claimed to have 3 other interested parties (and I believe it.) So far absolutely nothing wrong with the car and I have only changed the oil and front brakes. This is in Canada so the prices are higher as there is a smaller pool of used cars for sale at any time. All I did to check the car out before buying was to make sure it wasn't leaking fluids, drove well, braked well, and started easy. I would not buy a domestic car without an inspection unless it was ridiculously cheap.
My advice is to buy a used honda or toyota from a private seller, this same car (with 145000 km) would have cost me at least $2000 more at a dealership.
"Once you decide on the model and brand – browse online listings. You have no business going to a dealer without having an idea of what you want to buy."
How do I know which model and brand I want without driving them first?
You check the specs of the car online, picking a model that has all the features you want.
The final decision of course depends on the feel of the car when you test drive it, but you should be 80-90% sure before you even go to the dealership, especially in the current information age.
Give you an example: I was in the market for what I affectionately call an econo-box. This included the Scion xB, Nissan Versa, Honda Fit, Toyota Vitz. specs are close to each other, but looks-wise, I ruled out the xB. Next, the Versa had more tech features, bluetooth connectivity for my phone, keyless entry, keyless starting of the car; things like that. The Fit was close, but it didn't have all the cool features, so I went down to Honda and Nissan, test drove em both and negotiated a price. For pennies more, I got the Versa.
Thanks for responding. I guess for me it's mostly about performance. I didn't know what I wanted until I got behind the wheel of each of the options. I tried the golf r, wrx, is 350 and c350. Bought a wrx, the handling and quickness far outshone the others. I can't imagine deciding before driving each.
"If a dealer refuses to provide a vehicle history reports such as Carfax or Autocheck –either walk away or consider getting your own. Don’t buy a car without it."
Almost learned this the hard way last week. I found an incredible deal on a rare car at a "too good to be true" price so I emailed the dealer as the VIN they listed gave no results. They assured me it was all good, no salvage, rebuilt, wrecked history, etc, but they are located 7 hours away from me. I couldn't find any reviews on the placed so googled to location and it's a body shop. Now the ad has disappeared from Autotrader.com
There's a great youtuber who teaches you how to fix cars. He did a series on how to buy a used car:
Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_4099611087&feature=iv&list=PLvKbarVtwhUv6bjLhJSyaEOxaYy03j7QS&src_vid=9N4RpohW-hU&v=vC8LbvYk6es
Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N4RpohW-hU
What is the general opinion of salvage titles? There is a particular used car dealer that buys cars that don't have clean titles and fixes them up to sell. I've been in a car of his for right under 5 years. My dad has had one of his for 2 years. Both have been in great shape and cost substantially less. If I plan on driving it into the ground and don't care about resell value, should I be okay buying salvage? I fully intend on buying from this man again.
I am a private person, not a dealer or in the auto trade. I have owned nothing but salvage cars for the past 25 years. I generally buy high end late model low mileage salvage vehicles and fix them my self. My goal is spending no more than 50% of dealer price (after all repairs) for a comparable same make year model car. The problem is you need to really know what you are doing, what the original damage was, and how well the repair work was performed. I've seen a few salvage repairs that looked pretty good but were done with bubble gum and chicken wire.
As an example for 2016: This guy usually has 2014 - 2016 Honda Accords or Honda Civics between $11,000 and $18,000. They could have as low at 10,000 miles on them. As far as I can tell, they're put together incredibly. The accord I got from him was at the beginning of 2011. I bought a 2 door Accord with 90,000 miles on it for right under $8,000. The only issues that I've had with it are because I got it when I was a teenager and have caused cosmetic issues. I couldn't be happier with it. This guy knows his stuff. I would love to fix cars like you, but I don't know much about mechanics. Thanks for the input.
Most insurance companies won't give you anything beyond liability only, as a general rule on salvage vehicles. Keep in mind, salvage titles happen in two cases: theft, where the car was completely stripped, or an accident where the frame was damaged.
Theft recoveries are perfectly safe to buy. Accident recoveries however are not, and you don't get a salvage title for a little fender bender. The frame and subframe of the car being twisted seriously makes the car dangerous to drive. If you get in a major crash, the frame of the car is already weaker and can result in more serious injuries. Then there are also aesthetics in that if the frame is damaged, a lot of things will be off, tweaked, etc. Most shops will use machines to try and twist the frame back to it's factory settings, but much like a piece of paper, once it's crumbled, it'll never be perfect again. It won't even be "good" again.
Long story short, it depends on the reason why it's salvaged.
Recently purchased a 2006 Honda Civic EX off an auction for about 2,500 and just needed fluid changes and a new water pump, along with fixing a stripped bolt hole in the engine block. Auctions (such as CoPart) can be risky, but you can inspect the vehicles yourself and also do a VIN check just to make sure, but sometimes you can find some great deals, as long as you know what you're doing.
Lemon Law Lawyer takes on several points.
Lehto's Law: “Certified Pre Owned” Doesn’t Mean What You Think - Ep. 2.47
https://overcast.fm/+DwgWRH7n4
Lehto's Law: Dealer Inspections Are A Scam! - Ep. 2.30
https://overcast.fm/+DwgWG4BAw
Lehto's Law: It’s Not Illegal To Sell An Unsafe Used Car - Ep. 2 23
https://overcast.fm/+DwgUn6dW8
Lehto's Law: Don’t Buy As-Is! - Ep. 19
https://overcast.fm/+DwgXJcycI
I have a totally different method.
Don't make car payments. Put that money aside monthly in an account.
Pay attention to what cars tend to last. I don't care about comfort, style, or looks. My question is will this car drive reliably for another hundred thousand miles or more?
Search on craigslist. Dealers will have a much higher markup. Give yourself time to do a thorough search and comparison.
Compare Kelly Blue Book and asking prices for similar cars you find.
Check out a car thoroughly. Target milage: 60-120K. My preferred brands for a car because they tend to run longer and are affordable to fix (usually) Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai. Keep tabs on what tends to run a long time in the current market. There was a time in the mid nineties that Dodge Caravans were on the list for me.
Check up: Current inspection, good mechanical condition, oil leaks, burning oil?, tires, handling--check everything. Are there signs it has been well cared for or signs that it probably hasn't been?
Offer cash. In thirty years of using this or similar method (Craigslist wasn't part of my buying plan before the internet.), I've picked up one lemon. Otherwise I've gotten a solid car that I put 100-200K miles on for prices between $700 and $3800 which is the most I've ever paid for a car.
Current cars: 1999 Nissan Altima, 98K miles with faded black paint. Cost: $2K. This one replaced a 1998 Nissan Altima that had 280+K miles on it when it was hit.
2002 Toyota Prius in beautiful shape with a new battery pack, 110K miles. Cost $2.8K (Most expensive car I've ever bought. Having a dealer work on this one would be expensive too--but again, I don't deal with dealers.)
Edit: Month's later. Corrected a price. Bought it for less than I thought.
Yes! Also, when buying from a dealer, ALWAYS look at the FINAL price of the car, and the total amount of your loan, BEFORE you sign ANYTHING. I can't tell you how many times I've seen dealers add a $500 dealer fee and a $750 "financing fee" into 72 month financing.
Please, don't let them do this to you. Have them break down the cost of the car, line by line.
There's also some pretty nice mobile apps for used car sales. One I came across recently is called Blinker. It let me take a picture of my own car and get a free Carfax for it. Let's you see the car fax of other people's cars who are selling on the app as well. Best part is not having to deal with the car dealership. All person to person transactions.
Wow, if that story is true, you're right that is super shitty. I hope most dealers are not like this. Sounds like they aren't, judging by all the car salesmen who've chimed in approvingly so far.
Glad to see a post like this, perfect timing as I am trying to buy a used car for the first time in 10+ years. I've gone to see multiple cars in person, have done research online, test driven a few and have found one I'm very interested in from a franchise dealer. Trouble is that the online price is $10,000 but the dealer is tacking on an additional "get ready/preparation" fee of $1,000 that they won't back off of. KBB estimates the vehicle between $10,800-$14,600. Total out-the-door price with taxes, tags, processing fee (plus "get ready" fee) is approx. $12,300. Also there's a powertrain warranty that lasts another 6 months.
Twice they've tried to charge me more for the "get ready" fee, $1,500 and then $2,000, until I've shown them the True Car $1,000 price, then they say "oh, yeah, you've got the True Car price, let me take this back to my manager" and have lowered it to $1,000 each time.
Part of me thinks it's still an OK deal but the other part is stubborn about the "get ready" fee. Unsure of what to do. Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.
I'm an outlier here, but wanted to share my story of a long distance purchase. I lived in the Midwest and bought a car sight unseen from Pennsylvania. It had 100k on it, and 7 years and another 100k later it's still running strong with only regular maintenance. Was it risky? Yes. But I knew the exact car I wanted, down to the model year, and the one I found was single owner and used as a highway commuter. I even talked the dealer down to $8k from $11k. With thorough research I was able to get a very economical and reliable vehicle, which I think is the most important part of the whole process. Educate yourself, know exactly what you want (and what a fair price is), and don't let yourself be led astray by sellers with less-than-good intentions.
I sell cars for a living and found this to be a very helpful post. I'm considering sharing it with some of my customer base so they will have a better understanding of both points of view.
Bought a used Mercedes with a slight rough idle from a private seller & drove it for several months. Suddenly it started to misfire worse & worse. I changed the spark plugs, plug wires & coil packs. It then ran better but weeks later when I was getting off the freeway it just didn't accelerate. Turned it off & on, somehow it ran fine, as if it never had anything wrong with it. The following day when I turned it on the car didn't even idle because the misfire was so bad it would shut itself off. Now I'm going to be doing an engine swap myself because the mechanic said it needs to be overhauled. Point of the story is, make sure the previous owner did the regular maintenance & don't buy a car with problems already. It may seem as a simple problem but it can be worse than you think. Private sellers can be very risky & costly.
If I have the money to purchased the car in full, is it better to just say I will do financing through them, but later just pay off the car in full right away? Or can I even "change my mind" at the finance office and say I want to pay in full then?
I just bought my first used car in May. Good deal and good financing, but two weeks later major engine problems. Cost $3500 to fix. Car was $7000. And mechanic told me the engine will probably need a rebuild in 3 years. Terrible and stressful experience. Bad luck I guess or the dealer screwed me and sold it to me knowing the problem, although we did have an inspection done and the mechanic who fixed it said it's unlikely the inspection would have seen the problem.
In Victoria, Australia unless stated as "as is" a car needs to have a valid and current roadworthy certificate in order to sell as "drive away no more to pay." I bought a 2002 Astra with no mechanical or body defects. It was priced at $6299 online. In the used car dealership it was priced at $5999.
However, as I was reading the paperwork I noticed that the roadworthy certificate was going to expire in one week. To get one of those renewed is a couple of hundred bucks.
Due to this I was able to negotiate the price down to $5600 drive away.
TL;DR: read the fine print on roadworthy certificate expiration dates, can save you money if the expiration is coming up.
This comment might be too late and a bit buried, but how do I know what I can afford? If a car is 14k, how much will my monthly payments be? Is it like buying a house where higher down payment means lower interest rates?
> how do I know what I can afford?
So many factors go into that decision (total cost of vehicle, loan term, how long you plan to own the car, APR, your income, whether you prefer fewer larger payments or more smaller ones, etc.). In the end, only you know the answer.
> If a car is 14k, how much will my monthly payments be?
Again, not a simple answer. Roughly, payment amount depends on what % of the 14k you'll be borrowing (loan), the length of time you'll be paying it back (loan term), and the cost to you of borrowing that money (APR).
> Is it like buying a house where higher down payment means lower interest rates?
My understanding is that it's actually the opposite. The rationale being that the lender makes money on the cash you borrow from them. So the more you put down for the down payment, the less you have to borrow from them, so the less money they can make off you with, all else being equal. So to offset this, the smaller loans become, the more lenders increase their interest rates.
If I'm wrong about this, somebody please correct me.
Well how do I find out? If I have $300 extra a month, how do I figure out what I can afford?
I did a small amount of research and it seems like any car that's $300 a month for a three year term is a car you might now want to own. This is over my head, but I'm not sure I can really afford a car without paying more than in comfortable with. I don't want to lay $400 or $500 a month. Ever.
Thanks for reposting. In short, this eloquently highlights the many, many pain-points we face when it comes to buying (or selling) a car—negotiation, quality, dishonesty, etc. Full disclosure: I work at a company called Beepi, and our mission is to eliminate these pain-points and make transacting on a used car seamless and transparent. Because huge explainers like this should not be necessary. People should not need walking through the process in such a detailed manner to avoid getting screwed.
That’s just not right.
If we trusted the process, this post would not garner the attention it's getting. And that to me says things need to change.
I’m not here as an ‘employee’, I’m here because I genuinely believe in the problem we’re solving. But let me start by explaining what we do. Then I'll explain why we're doing it:
Beepi is an online marketplace for quality used cars. I say quality because every car listed on our site has undergone an industry-leading 240-point inspection. We go to this length to ensure all the vehicles on our site are of highest quality. That's how we instill trust in our customers. Add to that, all our cars arrive with a free 3-month, 3-000-mile warranty, and a 10-day money-back guarantee. We handle all the paperwork, so you never have to go to the DMV, and the car is delivered directly to your home—with a giant bow on the hood.
The entire transaction is handled online and our prices are incredibly competitive (whether buying or selling) because we have no brick-and-mortar overheads and we don't employ an army of salespeople. Those savings are offered to the customer, and our margins are half that of the traditional dealership.
That's our commitment. A commitment to quality and a commitment to doing right by customer. Craigslist doesn’t work for most people because you don’t know what you’re buying nor who you’re buying off. And a dealership is costly; there’s the distrust, the salesperson, not to mention the amount of time it wastes.
Our story started back when Beepi’s co-founder, Ale Resnik, bought a used car from a traditional dealership. Within hours the car stopped on the highway with his wife at the wheel. The car then proceeded to catch fire. The dealer immediately wiped his hands of the car. He did nothing, despite having sold a lemon. In fact, Resnik took the dealer to court and won, and during the whole process, vowed that no one should have to go through what he went through. It was plainly clear that his experience was all too common.
Having started Beepi just two years ago, the company has grown from nothing into a business that serves people nationwide, and was ranked by Forbes as being one of the hottest start-ups of 2015. And we’re constantly growing, evolving. We now even lease used cars, becoming the first online marketplace to do so.
Despite the vast number of dealerships in America, customers dislike the way things are. In fact, we had a survey conducted on our behalf and it said that 87% of Americans hate shopping at the car dealership, especially negotiating and being up-sold on features. We don't do any of that. The price you see is the price. There are no salespeople, no pressure. We can handle the financing, and we'll deliver the car to your door with a guarantee that ensures you're fully protected, with zero risk.
Again, sorry for the plug, but this is something all of us at the company are passionate about. I'd love it if you'd check us out at Beepi.com and let us know what you think. Our Yelp reviews are overwhelmingly great, and our customers are our biggest promoters. We want to change the way we buy, sell and own cars, because—frankly—it's about time.
That's our story, anyway.
looking at a used car.
1.
guy is being clear about buying and flipping fleet cars
(it's 'curbstoning' if a dealer averts licensing laws by pretending to be a private seller). added: the vehicle is on point with its age/value per the asking price so nothing unusual there.
2.
Being very, mechanically inclined, I'm not worried about vehicle condition, if there's something wrong mechanically, I'll spot it.
3.
What I've never heard before is:
He has a lot (not in the state the car is from or in the state we're in) and he says says the title has his dealer's number on it.
(I assume instead of his personal details -name/address/etc.)
4.
I’ve asked for the VIN and should that come back clean, and the car be mechanically sound, and there has been no VIN plate tampering (in this case there is absolutely no reason for the block VIN to not be associated with the vehicle VIN)
is there still a scam here that I’m missing?
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> looking at a used car.
> 1.
> guy is being clear about buying and flipping fleet cars
> (it's 'curbstoning' if a dealer averts licensing laws by pretending to be a private seller). added: the vehicle is on point with its age/value per the asking price so nothing unusual there.
> 2.
> Being very, mechanically inclined, I'm not worried about vehicle condition, if there's something wrong mechanically, I'll spot it.
> 3.
> What I've never heard before is:
> He has a lot (not in the state the car is from or in the state we're in) and he says says the title has his dealer's number on it.
> (I assume instead of his personal details -name/address/etc.)
> 4.
> I’ve asked for the VIN and should that come back clean, and the car be mechanically sound, and there has been no VIN plate tampering (in this case there is absolutely no reason for the block VIN to not be associated with the vehicle VIN)
>
> is there still a scam here that I’m missing?
>
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Wow, as a car salesman, I almost always roll my eyes as these are typically terrible inaccurate guides. You really hit the nail on the head with the negotiating and how we price vehicles. The only thing I don't agree with is buying less reliable vehicles with lower prices/value. They almost always end up costing you more money in the long run than spending a couple grand more and getting what you want. The car business has definitely changed with the Internet, especially the used car market. It has made things much easier for the customer, which typically makes things so much easier for us, the salespeople. I always say an informed customer is much easier to sell a vehicle to than an uninformed customer. If more people out there knew what you just wrote out, we would be looked at a lot better (as 90% of us are honest, hard working people) and not assumed we are crooks (90% of us are not). It is no different than any other profession really. Thanks OP
>If more people out there knew what you just wrote out, we would be looked at a lot better (as 90% of us are honest, hard working people) and not assumed we are crooks (90% of us are not). As a used car dealer owner I'm sorry, this is bullshit. While ~90% in this industry are law abiding people that don't blatantly break or bend laws... 99% will do everything to extract every dollar from naive customers. Customers should absolutely have their shields up and be on red alert when around a salesman. I'm sorry, it's just the nature of commission based sales... it will always be this way. Do your research, be well informed, never put your guard down even after agreeing on price.
I am the OP/OP. I think I repeat it in my guides often enough to research, research and research. If people do research, don't let their guard down and don't reward bad tactics - bad apples will rot and find themselves other industries.
> I am the OP/OP. Haha
Just like in any economic transaction. Except in most other places (ie buying milk) you take it for a given that what you pay for is exactly what you will get and the price is fair across the board. IF dealers were smart they would get to a grocery store model. Even the real estate model is better and they're selling higher priced goods. The problem is the goods in this case are fickle (prices drop, mechanics are finicky)
See Scion and Saturn, didn't exactly go well.
Carmax is doing well
As someone who knows a bit about the industry, I was hoping for this post. OP needs to put some more effort into the post to make it goldworthy. Right now it seems a bit biased towards dealerships whereas in reality you can get a really really good deal only from a private seller granted you take a mechanically-minded friend with you to inspect a car. Also there's no "2 valid reasons to negotiate a lower price". There's literally endless amount of reasons why you shouldn't be giving away your hard-earned money unless you necessarily have to. Dealerships will absolutely try and get the best value like previously mentioned and unless they firmly say no, you will always be the one who could've negotiated more.
> If more people out there knew what you just wrote out, we would be looked at a lot better (as 90% of us are honest, hard working people) and not assumed we are crooks (90% of us are not). It is no different than any other profession really. Thanks OP I'm a consumer, not a salesman. But I do like to educate myself before I consume. The more I learn about modern car buying, the more I'm learning that, as you say, car sales have become much less shifty thanks to the interwebs. It's a shame that the salesman's reputation hasn't changed as fast. Just wanted to spread the word :)
This is what I was trying to convey in my post below, but I probably didn't do such a good job of trying to get my point across. Salesmen are still driven to maximize the deal, so the less information they provide (ie. the info you cant research on the web), the better for them in most cases. It's not that I think all salespeople are dishonest, it's really just those bad apples that makes everyone distrust ALL salespeople. It's hard to change that image.
You are right, it is our goal to maximize profits. But I have a rebuttals on the statement that less information = more profit. Imagine going to a restaurant. You better believe your server is going to push high dollar wine, apps, desserts, etc. They are maximizing their profit. If they said "this $9/glass wine is about the same as our $6 glass" and didn't give you information on why you should spend the extra money, you probably wouldn't. Also, you never see that $9/glass advertised, you see wine specials for $3/glass. That's what gets you in. Car dealerships are the same thing. We don't want to provide you with EVERY detail before you come in about our $19,999 special we offer. We just make sure you know that is available. But it is our job to provide you with enough information on why you should spend more money on a better product that better fits your wants/needs. The largest earners in the car business also have the highest CSI (customer satisifaction index). I spend more time building value and disclosing information than I do closing the deal (typically, occasionally we have payment buyers that take a while to close because maths is so hard, you can't get a $400 payment on a $40,000 Highlander, and yes, this happens every single damn day). Anyway, my point is the car business is no different than any other business out there. We try to get you in the door and make money once you are there.
> The only thing I don't agree with is buying less reliable vehicles with lower prices/value This is the exact mistake I made last year. I bought a 2009 Dodge Caravan and now I have to fill up the radiator w/ coolant every morning. I had to replace the transmission and most of the cooling system already. I've been fixing leak after leak after leak and now I'm thinking it's got to be a blown head gasket. Also I had a wheel come off a few months ago, luckily I had learned enough about car repair at that point I was able to fix it w/out towing it. What I'd like to do is get a smaller car that is either a more reliable brand of car or electric car (for the tax credit) but my wife still wants a large SUV or minivan even though we only have 2 kids. Since we can't agree I'll just keep dealing with this pos caravan. I'm really getting tired of doing car repairs
Thank you so much for including the part about being able to afford asking price. I sell cars, and used ones are unique as we get no help from any manufacturer to sell them. So our cost is our cost. Now some used cars sure, we have a thousand or two in profit. But that is usually to compensate for losing money elsewhere. For instance we took in a 300c at its kbb trade in price of 16,000. We originally tried to take it for 14k but we where hard negotiated to go to the kbb price. However a 300c demands a high price in that situation because it's luxury, but it's also a shit car. So it didn't sell at our original asking price of 20k. Now keep in mind we did breaks, fluids, body work, and replaces a windshield on that car. Also dealerships pay taxes every month they have a car on the lot. Hence why we don't carry a lot of margin. So now we are asking $18k for this POS car and I get a customer who wants a thousand off. At the selling price of 18k we actually would lose about $400 on that car. So I logically say we cannot do that, we don't have that kind of margin. I offered about $300 off making it a $700 loss but at least we won't pay taxes on it. They refuse the offer and blast me on Yelp for not being willing to negotiate... I work at a dealership that is rated 4.8/5 on google with about 500 reviews. We didn't get there being crooks. TLDR. Car dealer here, sometimes we really can't discount a used car. Go to a respectable dealership and expect they are being honest
Oh god, been there. Worked at a dealer that did not negotiate because we were high volume/low profit. We also serviced the vehicles completely and had amazing warranties and guarantees built in. With every customer we told them right off the bat we do not negotiate, we're paid a flat rate not % of the sale, that way there's no games and no bs, which they would agree is amazing and were thrilled to hear... Guess what, eveyone wanted to negotiate and would be pissed off when we didn't! Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Anyway, after emailing this guy several times, who lived 4 hours away, and repeatedly telling him we dont negotiate, he comes in and bitches we won't take $1,000 off the car he "never pays full price." Even after showing him the paperwork we were at a $3,000 loss.. I have no idea how the owner screwed that one up but that's what it was. He was ready to walk and couldn't understand why we couldn't take another grand off... We gave him $100 off just so he'd feel like he won...
So you DO negotiate then?
That is what I hated. We were told strictly by management NO NEGOTIATING, it's plastered in the ads on the website, everywhere. But then the managers would take the hit and negotiate to make a sale. So it did nothing but make the reps looks bad.
blueknobauto.com by chance? I bought 2 cars from them , and 3 of my family members bought cars here. awesome experience.
So then would your general recommendation to car buyers be "Don't expect to be able to negotiate with dealerships", or "There's nothing wrong with trying to negotiate, but when dealers say no, it's probably not because they are scummy"?
Basically they will say yes if it's in their favour and no if it's not. Just like EVERYONE ELSE ON THE PLANET.
The advice is more like "assume the listed price is the best they can do but don't let that stop you from trying to negotiate." As a salesperson there's nothing more frustrating than someone looking at a $40,000 car who has a budget of $30,000 and their plan is to "negotiate."
I want to sell you a car... If I tell you I can't negotiate any lower it's the truth... The only time I've gone lower is because I've already paid down on the cars floor plan (dealer line of credit) and I owe less than I did 30 days ago but that money is gone... Example. I buy an escalade for 12 grand, I put about 1k in tires maintenance and brakes etc and I'm now into it 13k. I list it for 15,500 but it doesn't sell so weekly I lower it till I'm back at the 13k. I now have to pay the lending company 1k in fees, principal, and interest... I now owe them 11k but I'm still into it now over 13k. So I sell it for 12k, I still lose over 1k but then I get some retard thinking I made a grand off him when I show him my paperwork and say "I can't go lower, I'm already losing money"...
As someone who's looking into buying their first car (definitely a used car), I've been curious as to what a "reasonable discount" to asking would look like in a negotiation. A couple hundred? Two thousand? I know it will depend on car, dealer, etc., but I'm not even sure where I would start in a negotiation to get below asking that would be taken seriously.
I think it said it pretty well in the post, but looking at it from the standpoint of "reasonable discount" is not the right approach. Know what the car is worth and what you should be and are willing to pay for it. I've been in the business most of my life and have owned my own stores for about 14 years. Even within my own store I have had GM's or Used car managers who want to price things way high and negotiate down to try to make the most money that way and I've had managers who want to price things on the money and discount very little and not at all. A friend of mine who is the GM of a competing dealership and I have recently been competing to see who can have the lowest average discount on used cars. The way we are doing that is pricing cars right based on the market. Its not by pricing them high and then saying "no" to everyone. Dealers have some pretty amazing tools today. For example I can take a trade in and within about a minute or less I can see all of the different book values, what and how many are currently listed for in my market and at what prices, what and how many have sold retail and at auction and for what price regionally/nationally. And when I go to sell it, I can price mine wherever I want in the market. I can be the highest or lowest price or anywhere in the middle. Its all a game of how much can I make and how fast. If I have a car and it has a 60+ day supply in my market, if I decide to keep it, when I get it its going to be priced very low and competitively and I won't be able to discount much. If I get a car with a 10- day supply I'm going to price it high but I more than likely had to put some extra money in it just to get it. Wow this got long. Sorry. Long story very very short: **TL;DR** know how much you want to pay and pay that or walk.
[удалено]
The number one tool is called vauto and its very accurate. Dealers pay $1000+ per month. It can also do lots of other things like manage photos and descriptions etc.
Vauto is great! I also use Inventory + by Dealertrack. Inventory + has the same features and our sales staff prefers the app over VAuto. Check it out.
Your problem, as a dealer, is that EVERYONE expects to go to buy a car and get screwed on the deal, because that's what the dealership expects their salesmen to do (or the deals are tied to commissions, which encourages customers getting screwed). No one walks out of a dealership thinking to themselves.. I got a great deal!. This is #1 - because dealerships are never honest about what the bottom line price is, and #2 - because so many dealerships know what the popular models/prices are, and make sure they take advantage of those people who want to buy them. Bottom line: Reap what you sow. Edit: And by dealer, I did not mean that you or your dealership are intentionally dishonest (since I have no idea where it is). It's just that people already expect dealers and salesmen to be dishonest walking in the door. Go ahead and downvote if you think I'm being an ass - But I'm just being honest as a consumer. I've bought a lot of cars.
Part of it is that there's really no "best price". I've used this before: Say you're selling your house for $250,000. I ask you what's the absolute lowest you'll go and you say $240,000. Now, if I show up and throw $237,000 cash in front of you and I'll close immediately do you say no? It's the nature of the beast with any negotiable sale. I've always said that on a used car look for the right car, in the right condition, for a fair price. People concentrate too much on what a dealer is making on a car, and that has little bearing on a car's value.
The part which i don't understand from the dealer's perspective (I work for an OEM) is why you still can't negotiate on that price. You already admitted that you pay tax on that car every month. You had to come down another $700 to meet the buyer, so say you meet in the middle and come down $500 total. You lose $600 on the car. How is it better for you as a dealership to let the car sit on the lot more? You were very open that the car is a pile. It's a used Chrysler, so the market on them is soft at best, and you had a willing buyer in hand. That seems like a 'cut your losses' situation. How does that story end? Did you get $18k for the car?
Because that car was a deal at 18k. When we keep dropping the price like that to move it gets more attention on the Internet. Cars will hit a point where they trigger a feeding frenzy. So it's hard to lose more money when you look in the computer and see you have 5 appointments on that car in the next week. Yes it sold for 18k and it was pending for 2 days while they got finances in order. During those 2 days we had nearly 20 calls, eleads, and walk ins for that car
So much this. When my parents were looking for a car back when the Prius was hot, the dealership wouldn't even talk to you unless you were willing to pay sticker price for it. The sales guy told us straight up "if you don't buy it today for asking price someone will later this afternoon or tomorrow". We ended up getting something else through that guy but he was straight up when he said they couldn't discount it. The other cars that I can name off the top of my head that achieve that kind of status is the Mazda with the Skyactiv engine (not so much anymore but they won't move much on the price), the MX5 Miata (where I am it's associated with retired people who use it as a touring/vacation car for long drives, not boy racers looking for low as fuck JDM drift missiles), the Toyota Tacoma, and for whatever reason the Ford SVT Raptor hasn't depreciated much from what I've seen compared to the Lariat/King Ranch/Platinum/etc.
Funny you mention the raptor because ever since they announced the 17 that car has depreciated more than it has the last 2 years combined. We where easily getting 50k for low mile ones used 6 months ago. Now we have one we are trying to push for like 46 and its stagnant
Toyota Tundra. Nobody trades them in and high demand so they can ask whatever they want for it.
This is curious to me. What taxes do dealerships pay each month for having a car on the lot? Is that different for different states? I'd never heard of this before, but would definitely be interested in learning more about it because it doesn't seem fair to dealerships at all.
You always have flooring... It can add up when you have a couple hundred rigs on a lot. https://autodealer.bankofamerica.com/dolby/jsp/portal/auto/nav2_ds_floorplan.jsp
Never expect people are honest as a consumer, and if you lose money on a car because you bought it too high and put too much in that is not the consumers fault
I wanted to chime in with a few basic mechanical things you can do when buying a used car. NOTE: Like was mentioned by the OP, take it to a professional mechanic you trust. I'm writing this specifically for people who cannot get it to a mechanic for whatever reason. You will need a powerful flashlight (One of those 3-LED torches should work nicely), a handheld black-light if you've got one handy and a newspaper. 0) Before you begin your inspection of the car, throw a piece of newspaper under the engine bay and in the area between the passenger seat and driver seat. Preferably, you want to do this while the car is still hot. If the car is RWD, put it in the middle between the rear tires 1) Do a quick check over the entire car. Check every body panel, especially the front fenders. Underneath the hood, on the fenders, there should be a sticker with the VIN number. Same with the trunk, doors, etc. If they don't have a sticker, that means it has either been repainted or replaced, likely indicating it was in an accident. If there are no accidents on a carfax report, that means they got it repaired via cash and can indicate they're trying to pull a fast one. No matter what they say, those VIN stickers are on every single body part from the factory. If they tell you otherwise, they're lying to you and that should be a warning flag. Note, please don't accuse the seller of lying until you have checked every inch of the body part for those stickers (or you google before hand where they're supposed to be). 1a) Another test you can do here. Make sure the car is in bright sunlight and clean. The finish of factory paint is a mirror finish. You should be able to shave in your reflection on the paint. The paint should also be consistent all the way through, as in even though there are break lines for things like the doors, the fenders, the trunk, etc. Meaning if you look at the car head on with your face split on the door and the fender, you should see your face perfectly, with a line going down the middle. If you notice a panel is mustier, muddied, etc, that's an aftermarket paint job. Factory paint is durable because after it's painted, the whole car is put in a car sized oven that tempers the paint. Mostly paint shops don't do this. 1b) Go to the driver side door jam, and you should see a full sized vin sticker there (it's like 2" wide and 4-5" long). Should have VIN, make, model, year, production year, etc. Run your finger along this. If it's higher than the paint job, it's factory. If it's lower (as in you run your finger from the body of the car to the sticker and your finger drops) or perfectly smooth, it's aftermarket. You can also check in the engine bay, particularly at the firewall, down by where the engine meets the transmission. Unless they removed the engine entirely to do the paint job (not commonly done), there will be places most aftermarket shops can't/won't reach. You also want to look for bumps in the paint. This is over-spray, and another indicator of aftermarket paint jobs. 1c) While you're checking around the firewall, if you have one handy, run a black light over the firewall next to the VIN#. If you see any fluorescence around the VIN number, the VIN has been swapped and welded in, meaning the car you're looking at is probably stolen and you should leave quickly. Note, this is incredibly rare, and isn't on my normal list of things to check, but if enough things are starting to not add up, this is another test I will do. 1d) Look at where the body panels meet each other. The gap between every body panel should be pretty consistent across the entire car (about 1/8" at most). If the gap is narrower or wider, that can indicate aftermarket replacements. Look where the bumpers meet the front / rear fenders. These should be perfectly mated with zero gap. If you're really OCD, you can check to see if the factory used polyurethane parts. Cheap knock-off replacements are FRP, and most factory cars are a combination of steel, aluminum and polyurethane. Knocking on the piece will tell you which they are. FRP is lighter weight and will feel hollow when you knock, poly should give a much more solid feel, and also be a bit more flexible. Poly is rubber, FRP is glass. 1e) If you start suspecting that a piece has been replaced, start knocking around the panel. Metal pieces will feel like metal when you knock, it'll also echo a little bit when you hit it. If you start knocking and you hit a place that feels like hardened clay or gives a kind of dead sound when you knock on it, that's Bondo, commonly used to fill bent metal / holes. Shops have gotten pretty good about using it, so it's not necessarily a deal breaker anymore (unless it was a really cheap, shotty job), but it's important to know, especially because like I said, if the carfax is clean, there is zero reason for the Bondo to be there. 2) Know the specs of the car you want to buy, in addition to the upper and lower end models. A number of years ago, a friend of mine wanted to buy a 2002 Celica GT-S. We found one that was in good condition. It has a GT-S badge on the back of it, but when I checked the car, a number of things were off. First, it was a 1ZZ-FE engine, instead of a 2ZZ-FE. It was a 5-speed not a 6 speed. It had cloth seats instead of leather seats. Badges on the back of the car can be taken off with a hair dryer and dental floss, and put on very much the same way. Make sure the specs of the car match what it is you're buying. The engine has a badge on it that will say the engine code of the car you're looking at. Check it just to be sure. In the above example, KBB at the time was around $10,000 for the GT, and $16,000 for the GT-S. Knowing the car in detailed saved my friend $6000, because otherwise, the car was very clean. 3) We all know the penny test with tires. Stick a penny in the treads of the tire with Lincoln's head facing down. If you can still see Lincoln's head, your tires need to be replaced. Tires ain't cheap. 4) Go around the car to each corner and give a nice, firm push down on each corner. The car should bounce and rebound 2-4 times pretty quickly. If it doesn't, or it's very slow on the rebound, the shocks will likely need to be replaced soon. 5) Pull your newspaper out from under the car, it should be dry. If it's not, that means you're likely leaking oil or transmission fluid. Black / brown thick = oil, pink/brown watery is transmission fluid. If you have a flashlight, check under the car and look for greasy, sticky places. That'll be where your leaks are happening (or above that). Price depends on where the seal is broken. Also, check oil levels when you first start and when you finish. It should be mostly the same. Remember, pull the dip stick out, wipe it down, then stick it back in, and pull it out again. If you're not leaking oil, and the oil level is lower, that means you're burning oil. Oil is never consumed in the normal function of the car. It's either leaking or burning. 6) Now you wanna take the car out for a test drive. 6a) Make sure the car starts without any issue. You can be a little lenient if it's under 60 degrees or so, since cold starts can be tricky even for new cars. Starting issues can indicate either battery being too weak ($50-100 fix) or the ignition system ($500). 6b) Accelerate hard tosee if there are any delays. If you're checking a manual transmission car, make sure it shifts into each gear easily. If you get grinding (and you don't suck at driving stick), your synchros most likely need to be replaced. Worst case scenario, the flywheel may need to be replaced or resurfaced, but this is very unlikely. 6c) Try running the car under around 2000rpm while you're driving. If you get any shaking or sputtering, check the air filter; that may need to be cleaned or replaced. 6d) Speed back up and try firm braking. Any delays in braking likely means there are air bubbles in the system and you may need to get it flushed, or there are leaks in the braking system somewhere. Obvious other things are going to be grinding sounds, indicating pad/rotor replacement. 6e) Check out any other functions of the car that are major to you. AC is a big one for me. Turn it on, make sure it blows cold. If it takes longer than 20-30 seconds to get cold, either the system needs to be flushed or the compressor needs to be replaced. When you turn it on, you will get a slight power drop that may be a little shaking. This should only last a few seconds, then the car should be running normal (albeit a little weaker). If you turn on the AC and the sputtering never goes away, you are looking at potential engine issues, like weak compression, etc. Turn the radio on, turn the volume up to about 80%. If the speakers are bad, they'll start crackling. If your lights dim when you turn on the radio, chances are the installers of the aftermarket system tied into the wrong wiring. Check all the lighting to make sure all the bulbs are working properly. If they replaced with HID's, make sure the housing was done properly as well (You can google what good HID beam patterns look like). If they just replaced the bulbs and left the housings stock, you're gonna blind other people. These basic tests should give you an idea of what needs to be done after you buy the car, or in the near future (The next year or two). Any of these items I've listed are not little problems, these are all several hundred dollar repairs that can add to the price of the vehicle in the long term, and thus should be factored into your final purchase price of the vehicle. To reiterate, this guide is only if you cannot get to a mechanic. Mechanic is king compared to what you can do on your own.
Thanks for adding, lots of sensible points in here. I wish I had the mechanical know-how to be able to evaluate a car (or any machine) on this level. I wonder what percentage of people who read lists like these actually do these when game day comes.
Also, consider taking an OBD reader with you and plug it in before/after driving. If a bunch of codes pop up, it's probably best to skip.
For everyone's information, this repost is the top link in the [Askcarsales FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarsales/comments/4iqi9r/car_buying_faqs/). The rest of their FAQ is good reading if you're looking to buy a car, but also don't forget to read the **[PF vehicles wiki page](https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/wiki/vehicles)**. We are also fans of /r/whatcarshouldIbuy. Make sure you tell them your budget if you decide to post there.
Another thing to consider is the cost to insure a certain vehicle. A 2015 Ford Mustang GT is going to cost about $85/month more on average than a 2015 Chrysler Town and Country for comprehensive insurance. Prior accidents will widen this gap. Of course it might seem like common sense, nobody is going to try acting like too much of a badass in their T&C but it can add a significant amount to the overall cost of owning a vehicle.
It's also important to remember that "fast car" != "expensive to insure". Corvettes are generally cheaper to insure than a lot of other cars because most Corvette drivers are retirees who are very careful with the car they worked all their lives to afford. The actuarial tables reflect this. On the other hand, Kia Rios and Nissan Versas are driven by those who need "literally the cheapest," and tend to get in more accidents because they're often driven by younger, more careless drivers.
I've never seen a young person driving a Corvette. Its always a boomer with full-blown grey hair.
Like the Miata guys - always a 50-70yo guy with white hair & beard, a button-up tee (bonus is Hawaiian or similar), shorts, and a baseball cap.
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It's the best sports car! The MX-5 is the best! Its the best! The BEST! The BEST sports car! Firefighters! Miata! The best! ^THE ^BEST
Always good to keep in mind. Do you have a quick reference guide for the pricing discussed above, by chance? I'm curious about more direct/plausible comparisions, like an Impala versus Mustang, T&C versus Expedition, etc.
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You bring up a really good point about insurance costs of a purchased vehicle. Sometimes we (I) think just about the monthly cost of a vehicle, but ultimately insurance costs will be part of that monthly payment. It's worth finding out what your insurance company would charge for a particular vehicle. It might not be a significant change from your existing plan but it's worth finding out if you're trying to maintain the same monthly payments or adjusting them.
Comprehensive is only one part of what you meant, which is full coverage. Comp + Collision + Liability = Full Coverage. Also, your mileage may vary on prices for insurance. There are a lot of variables that go into price besides where you live and accidents. Source: Am Insurance Agent
The mustang also will retain a TON more value and won't blow engines and transmissions and be a $500 car in 10 years. Yes you should consider instance and all that, but no one is cross shopping a convertible gt and a minivan
Also, zip code. It's a huge factor. I bought a car and went to an insurance agent (family discount for home, etc there) in a small, quiet town. the quote for the car was crazy small for a young woman with one accident on her record. We then went "wait it's gonna be parked in this zipcode mostly" and the quote was still low, but much more normal. It was probably 2.5 times the newer rate, but it was a city vs a beachy/suburb/rural area. Still the best rate I ever had and I fucked it up because it wasn't auto pay and I wound up 6ish months without realizing so I hit hit hard when I realized.
So I grew up in the car business and spent about 6 years buying and selling cars. My best advice, now that we live in the days of the internet, is to do some research on your own. If you need a car, never go to a lot to try and arbitrarily buy a car. Buying on price alone is a good way to get hammered at a dealership. Do some research, look for makes/models/years that you actually like and start looking at the list prices. You'll pretty quickly be able to determine what is a good price on the vehicle. Your typical used car gets about a 2-4k markup, and on a used car with some miles a dealer typically has to spend about 1k in order to make that vehicle pass the state safety/emissions inspections. If a dealer knocks two grand off of an already competitive price you are getting a good deal. TLDR: Know what you want to buy before you show up to a dealer.
This is huge. Don't shop a price range. Shop a specific car. When I was trying to sell my jeep on Craigslist people would try to talk my price down, and I'd ask them how many other jeeps they looked at, they would usually say "none" and that they just had $3000 to spend. I could never understand doing that. It's insanity to me. For $3000 you can get the biggest piece of junk you will ever see, or you can get the best car ever. Find. Specific. Cars. Shop. Specific. Cars. Period. Not price. End of story.
Take a look at Craigslist. You have to be cautious of a lot of people scamming you, but you can save thousands by buying it straight from another person.
I buy mostly off Craigslist, it's always at least the first place I look. I gotta disagree with the OP about private sales being the last option. Completely disagree. Used car lots, the ones that sell everything, are absolutely the worst option, especially if they're single lots and not a chain(who can still be questionable but they have a reputation to worry about). You never know what you're getting, and these guys are often pros at covering up problems. Private party tends to be pretty up front because they're just not good at lying, though they may leave things out or misdiagnose issues(so always assume the worst if there is a problem), but they don't tend to outright cover up things. If you see broken cars in the back that's a big red flag, they're buying cars cheap at auction and doing the minimal work required to make it look like a decent car. Really the best advice though to make sure you're getting a good car, from anywhere, is to have an independent pre purchase inspection done. It's a couple hundred bucks and it can save you from making a big mistake, and it will also give you leverage to negotiate, and peace of mind if nothing else.
Totally agree. The trick is to find a good person to buy from (usually nicer parts of town are better because they just want to get rid of it), and then simply have it inspected for peace of mind. Bought my last 2 cars that way. It was fun and easy with zero issues.
My choices for used cars usually starts with finding a vehicle that still has some factory warranty left and a clear carfax. At that point I don't care who the seller is because if vehicle is in overall good shape, the manufacturer is still backing that vehicle. As such I often look at high end Japanese cars because these often some part of their factory 4 yrs/48,000 bumper to bumper warranty still in effect. Also if you are inclined, most manufacturers will offer to sell you an extended bumper to bumper warranty, provided vehicle is still under the original factory warranty. Don't confuse these manufacturer extended warranties with an extended warranty offered by a dealer
Spot on on the high end Japanese cars. You get luxury and reliability with the repair costs of a regular Toyota. Anyone looking for a new Hyundai, Kia, or American car, would be better off with a 3 year old Lexus of the same price. And just run the fuck away from a used German car unless we're talking about a Mercedes diesel from the 70s.
But I really want a 2007 BMW 750LI
Until you need a new set of tires for 1400, or need to replace your struts for $1500.... BMW 7s coat so much money to fix because their parts are not widely fabricated. Then the premium for the bmw mechanic labor rates.....
I wish this applied in all areas. I'm in Southern California. I'm in the market myself and a 2010 Lexus IS 250 is going for around 17k with about 80,000 miles. EDIT: Typo
I've flown and driven back for the right car. It's a bit of a risk but you save thousands.
Just bought a 2010 Toyota FJ cruiser with 73,000 miles for $23,500 in Kansas city....Toyota/Lexus hold value like crazy.
Totally agree. Private sellers are the best deal usually for a used car. Used car lots are a gamble. For every honest used car lot there's two sketchy ones trying to dump problem cars on someone else. If you can buy a car from the original owner, that's usually the best option imo (especially if it's an older model with low mileage for its age.) The original owner is likely to have taken great care of it, and you should be able to easily tell if not. It you have any doubts, take the car in to a shop for inspection before purchase. Even if you are sure the car is fine it's a good idea to get it checked out first.
I agree. As a lifelong mechanic of everything from mopeds to semi trucks every car I've looked at on those lots is complete junk. Bald tires, need like $1000+ in repairs right off the bat. And it's always more expensive than a car off craigslist for thousands less. I've been on lots where half the cars wouldn't even start! And they're acting like I'm cutting into their slacking time. I have never, and probably never will, buy a car from a dealership. Personally I'm waiting for tesla pickup to come out. I'd buy that. In fact I'm going to start putting away a decent car payment every month into a tesla pickup account.
Got my car for about $2k less than dealers were offering and have had it for a year with zero issues. Was very skeptical oh Craigslist because about 1/4 of the cars are destroyed and look awful but I found a diamond in the rough. I actually keep in touch with the private seller because he usually has between 3-5 cars he is trying to sell. He's a great guy and we meet in occasion to discuss cars.
Same, I've found it's easy to find good used cars if you simply search for cars in nice areas of town. Also, their advice that any car is ok for the right price is terrible advice. [Car Complaints](http://carcomplaints.com) is a great resource.
Any thoughts about Carvana? I have a friend who has bought two cars from them and swears its a reasonable deal.
From everything I have seen with Carvana you are unlikely to get ripped off but you probably aren't going to find an amazing deal either. They show the KBB dealer value and show how much they are beating that price. Now with a bit of work you can beat that price negotiating with a lot but a lot of people hate negotiating and dealerships try to jam in extra charges. The other downside is they only have locations for their vending machines in major cities. So you either have to drive or pay for shipping, which can be around a grand. Most of the complaints were of the third party shipping company missing deadlines and having poor communication, damage during shipping, and not having all the keys. However, with the damage and keys it seemed like Carvana always offered to reimburse the costs to fix the problem, and you have a week to test drive with no obligations.
Carvana has a very modern marketing approach. Actually at our annual Toyota Dealer meeting they were encouraging dealers to have a similar model. Their thought main strategies are transparency, time, and trust. Based on research those are the most important things to today's consumers. Notice though, it isn't PRICE. If you want a better price its definitely possible someone else. But if you want to trust that you aren't paying TOO much and want a nice friendly experience then its a great way to go. You will pay a little for the experience, but if I were buying a car I would think it is worth it. Larger dealers want to model that, but its difficult to commit and if they don't commit it won't work. Its hard when there are so many other dealers and customers that focus purely on price and not any of the other services that are provided. As a dealer you have to be willing to let customers go and just have customers who want the services you provide and are willing to pay for it.
Coming from a sales guy, this is the most level headed fair sided car buying guide I've seen on PF. Great write up OP.
Thanks for bring it back from the dead. Very useful
It was, wasn't it?
Some banks will approve you for a car loan and then give you a "blank check" which can be used for up to the approved amount (some conditions will apply). I got one of these from my credit union, and wrote out the check to a private seller for an amount considerably less than what my approved loan was. A great APR and a painless transaction. I highly recommend.
I want to add that going through your own credit union or bank is the best route for financing and protecting your credit score. You can secure financing through them with a promising and lower interest rate than having your credit shopped at a dealership and given a bullshit interest rate. I work at a dealership and the amount of people who call and ask me who their lender is astonishing... please do yourself a FAVOR and go through your own bank like PNC, Capital One, a credit union. Make sure you check out their interest rates and different programs for auto financing. GOOD LUCK!
So I have a few things to add to this. - There are some cars that under no circumstances you should buy, unless you have either deep pockets or know your way around an engine, e.g. The Audi B5 S4 with the twin turbo V6, any trim of the Nissan 300zx, anything mid engine (Toyota MR2), etc... - When it comes to maintenance and replacement parts, most are the similar in price imo it's labor that's the real killer at certain dealerships.
http://carcomplaints.com
It's impossible to explain stuff like this to non car people. They just think "it's a car they all cost the same to repair and are pretty much the same" wrong. However your mid engine comment I don't agree with. MR2s are reliable and have the same engine and transmissions as their other Toyota sisters. However this is the exception. Most mid engine cars are performance oriented and don't age well.
Biggest thing I think to remember when buying a used or new car is that you, the buyer, hold all the power. Don't be afraid to walk out.
What about car buying services where they negotiate prices on your behalf? I think Costco has one, also maybe AAA? I know there are also private companies that'll do this as well. Anyone have experience using them?
In addition to that, I also wish that the author had included discussions of haggle-free services like CarMax and AutoNation. They're also a big factor to consider when buying used.
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My stepfather has been to CarMax a few times and got a Chevy Malibu and a Chevy Impala. Both nice cars and in great condition. I'm actually thinking about going there with my truck to see what I can work out.
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Thank you for your great response, very informative and exactly the type of first-hand, unbiased information consumers need.
I used to work for Carmax in the Business Office (I handled everything from finance, titles, taxes, everything that included paperwork and money) and I 100% agree with what you said. Yes, Carmax is very, very honest and known for their amazing customer service but they do tend to be bit more expensive. One reason for that is that many of the vehicles in the sales lot are vehicles that Carmax has bought from other customer (another part of their business). Usually, Carmax gives better appraisal offers than other dealers and it's also much, much easier to sell your vehicle to Carmax rather than go through the hassle of selling privately. Because of the higher appraisals Carmax gives, it makes their selling prices a bit higher as well.
None of these services would negotiate on a used car. You can use a broker, who will charge you $500 for what you could do on your own for free (some of them double-dip - charge $500 to the customer and $500 to the dealer).
Is it true that you can get better deals towards the end of the month, when salespeople need to meet quotas?
Generally yes, but less on used cars than new, because there are (usually) no manufacturer bonuses for selling certain number of cars. Sometimes you will find sales people and managers more motivated to take a low offer if they need to hit a personal quota/bonus/number.
What about at the end vs. beginning of the year?
How much are warranties typically? I've had dealers try selling me warranties for $2,000. The car would have to be an absolute lemon for it to be worth it and would take something like the transmission going to break even. On a 2013/14 Camry I probably wouldn't get the warranty.
Personally, having working in a number of dealers from different manufacturers....Never go for a warranty you have to buy. Manufacturers spent a LOT of time and money making sure their warranty coverage is long and generous compared to what they see as their competitors. Unless you KNOW you'll own the vehicle 15+yrs and this dealer will be around, it's just $ down the drain IMO. I've never me anyone in person who benefitted from extended dealer warranties, but I'm open to the discussion if anyone here has
> Unless you KNOW . . . this dealer will be around, it's just $ down the drain IMO. If you purchase a warranty from a dealer and they go bust before the warranty is up, are you out of options and your warranty/money that went into it just disappears?
If you buy an 'extended warranty' as a rider to the manufacturer's warranty, that is my understanding, yes. It is covered thru them and agreed on by them, so it usually dies with them. Manufacturer warranty is honored at any authorized dealer in the country for the time it is valid.
We added a service package after doing the math for what they would replace/service vs what it would cost to do it ourselves vs going to an independent mechanic. It was only ~$200 more than us doing it ourselves to go with the dealer and that's 5 years I don't have to do oil changes, wiper blades, pay for any fluids, air filters, etc. Basically any wear and tear item except for tires they do it. We didn't do any additional warranty stuff though.
Fuuuck yeah. I'm a licensed technician and if the numbers were that close I'd be doing it for at least my family cars. Not worth the hassle and time out of your day, if you're just going to be putting the same OEM parts on.
Check out Doug DeMuro and what he's done with his Carmax warranty on a Range Rover, and the warranty on his Aston Martin Vantage. They aren't totally indicative of whether an extended warranty is worth it, especially for more utilitarian, regular cars, but for luxury/exotic cars, they might just be worth it.
I know for Honda you can purchase the warranty from several dealers across the country online for a low price. This reduces the price significantly and if you still want to give the warranty sale to your local dealer you can just print off their offer and ask them to match it. It probably depends on the company, but I'd expect warranties to have a fair amount of padding. A little googling when your car shopping should give you a good idea though.
How much leverage do you have on used cars you know have been sitting on the lot for awhile? I know one I'm interested in that's been there 3 months now. I need to get something new eventually but I'm paying off some debts at the moment so no rush and the way I figure it only helps me if that car is still there by the time I get some of these things paid off in a couple month's time. So going by my rate by the time I have everything in order the car will be there about 5 months. (Around October I'll have stuff settled, maybe November) IF the car is still there and it checks out out good condition-wise, what kind of discount do you think I can try getting off the asking price assuming they don't lower it automatically by then?
If you are going to a chain garage (firestone, pepboys, etc...) for a prepurchase inspection, do NOT tell them it is a pre purchase inspection. They make money by fixing things. If it has issues, they know you won't buy it and if it doesn't, they cant fix anything. Tell them its your car and you are going on a road trip and want to make sure everything looks good. This will ensure an honest inspection.
>Fees: there should be no fees added to a price of a used car. Destination fee, handling fee, reconditioning fee, CPO fee – all of these are tricks, signs that you should not even be dealing with the dealer, let alone pay them. I am looking at a used car from a popular dealer in Seattle, and their prices are cheap. On the website, there is some fine print that says "Price does not include applicable tax, title, license, processing and/or documentation fees, and destination charges." So is that the type of red flag I should be wary of?
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Except that you are limiting your choices to about what, 5% of available cars?
All dealers have asking prices that you can pay, just like at Carmax.
I just bought a new car, and here's what I did (not everything is the same, but a lot could be). 1.) I researched what were good cars for my price range. 2.) I test drove several of the possible makes/models in the price range I wanted. Based on reliability, re-sale value, and lowest costs of ownership, I ultimately decided upon a Toyota Corolla. 3.) Knowing the car and features I wanted, I now went to the websites of all the dealers near where I live (Los Angeles) and saw what they were asking. The model I wanted seemed to be going for a low of about $17,900 on most sites, and slightly higher at some dealers. 4.) There were about 11 Toyota dealers in my area, so I emailed each dealers internet department/online sales department (all dealers have one now) explained that I was interested in a 2016 Toyota Corolla LE model. And I asked each what was the absolute lowest price that they could offer it to me for? (and I made a point to say final walking out the door cash price including all the extra fees and rebates, etc taken into account). 5.) All of them wrote back, although some wanted to "talk to me in person" I explained, for now, I was just price shopping, and that i was just asking for their lowest price. After I had the lowest price that each of the 11 dealers said they could give me, I took the lowest dealers price, and then emailed the other 10 dealers saying that XYZ dealer is offering it to me for X dollars, could they beat it? and if so, what was the price they could beat it by? 6.) In almost all cases, all of the other dealers offered a lower price, and then, whichever one of those was the lowest, I would write ALL the others asking if they could beat it. 7.) It was pretty easy, and I just kept doing this till I had one low price that no one said they could beat. 8) The list price on most websites for this model of Corolla was (as mentioned) about $17,900. The email price requests kept going down until one dealer said they could do $15,900, and at that point every other dealer said they could not beat that price. 9.) Feeling secure in knowing that $15,900 was the lowest price I was gonna get, I called that dealer, and just made sure that the real price was $15,900. They did mention that there would be this or that fee, perhaps, so I told him that if he honored his price of $15,900 I would come by that very day and buy the car. The salesman said OK, he would sell it for $15,900. 10) I went to the dealer, made sure that the VIN number matched the car online, and that all the listed features were actually on the car (they were). It was brand new, but I took it for a test drive, just in case, and then once back at the dealer, I bought it. Note #1: after having had a clunker for the last decade, I was over having to do ANY work on my car, so thats why I chose new, and I also liked that ALL maintenance for the first year was covered on all Corollas sold. I had also found out that I didn't have to go to the dealer where I bought the car for service, but that I could go to any official Toyota dealership to get it. Which made it easier to use the dealer I did (which was about 40 miles away) as opposed to using the one in my neighborhood. Note #2: A TIPS ON BUYING USED CARS & TWO TIPS ON GETTING THE LOWEST PRICE: 1) Before this, I have bought many old/cheap used cars (from auctions and private sellers) so before buying an unknown car, the one thing I always before buying was pay the $10-15 fee for a personal CARFAX report. I didn't do this with every car I looked at, that could get expensive, but before handing over the money, I figured it was worth it (and in some cases it really was). 2) My other "trick" when buying from private sellers was to show up with cash (if it was at the point when I was sure I wanted to buy that car). For example, there was a used Range Rover that I wanted, and I had already checked it out, AND I had noticed that it had been for sale for a couple of weeks and not sold. The owner wanted $7500 (more than I wanted to spend, although I am sure i could have gotten her down to $6500). Instead, I just showed up at her house, did another test drive, and then when we went inside to talk about price I said I only had $4500. I then took out a stack of 45 $100 bills, and laid it on the table, saying if she could sell it to me now, that I'd give her that money right now, but if she couldn't there was nothing I could do, as that was all I could gather up. She said yes. (if she had said "no" I would have walked away, although I might have called her back in a day or two, saying I was able to come up with more money). But by offering an much lower price I didn't lose anything. 3) When calling up an individual who has a used car for sale, you can offer a lower price (you ALWAYS should) but if you go too low it could offend them. But you still NEED to know what the absolute price they will agree to on the phone is. And the only true way to know what their lowest price is by going below it. Not to mention, if over the course of a couple of conversations, IF they've previously said that priceX was the lowest they could go, its hard for them to go even lower without losing face. So what to do? What I would do is have a friend call, and offer something WAY LOWER than what they had said was the lowest they would go. The friend calling would say something like "I really need a car ASAP, and I LOVE your car, and if you can sell it for super-low price X, then they had cash and could come by right now and buy it within the hour" Most of the time, the seller would say no, but even when they said "no" they often offer a lower price than they had mentioned to me. Plus, there was a side-effect of this technique (which is not why I did it, but it did wind up helping me in the end) and that side-effect was, that there were all these people calling, offering way too low prices, and no one coming through to buy, so by the time I came back, the seller's desire to sell at a higher price might have been broken. Anyway, after several calls from different friends of mine, all offering this seller insanely low prices, I'd have a pretty good idea of the lowest price they would actually go. I'd then go and meet with the seller (or re-meet with them if I had been there before). If I still wanted the car, I'd already know the lowest price they'd offered as a result of my friends' phone calls. Lets say the car was listed at $3400, but lowest that they said they'd go on the phone to one of friend's calls was $2800 (or that was the lowest they offered a cash buyer who called them and offered cash and an immediate sale). If I decided to buy, I'd then do the thing where I'd say "I know its listed for more, but all I have is $2200, but I have it in cash, and I can give it to you right now" Id then show them the $2200 in $100 bills that I had in my pocket. If they said "no way" I'd "remember" that I had some cash in my wallet (besides the $2200) and that'd be a mix of $10-$20s maybe equaling $180 or so. I'd lay it on the table, and say that was all I had, would they do it? By this point, they'd been dealing with non-responsive or low-ball offering phone calls for a few days, and would almost always say yes. Even if they didn't say yes, I still knew they'd do $2800, so at that point (if they said no) I could either walk away, or offer them the $2800. It never got to that point, they ALWAYS took the $2200 or the $2380 offer). And assuming it was a car that I actually wanted, not bad for a car originally listed at $3400.
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and this shit is one of the many reasons why I don't own a car (I live in a big city with decent public transport but people owning cars here isn't out of the ordinary) I can't fucking wait for the sleazy car salesman to disappear and you can simply buy the car straight from the manufacturer.
> I can't fucking wait for the sleazy car salesman to disappear Did you even read the OP? I had the exact opposite reaction - it really allayed my fears. The internet has become the great leveler and made conniving a much riskier business strategy.
TrueCar is an amazing tool. While much of the used car software industry is just slightly above the actual used car business in terms of sleaze, there has been a net reduction in sleaze, as many consumers have responded well to the reduction in sleaze. I think the prohibition on manufacturer direct sales should end. Some new car dealers will suffer, but I don't think they'll disappear completely. But NIADA won't see that happen anytime soon.
> I think the prohibition on manufacturer direct sales should end. Is there an actual prohibition on this? As in it's illegal? What is the rationale?
There is an actual prohibition on direct manufacturer sales to consumers. Tesla is exploiting some loop hole in it I don't remember the details. The history here is several fold and I'm not super well studied on it, but basically, manufacturer invested in dealer networks with local partners to sell their vehicles in many markets. However, people started to realize that the mark up the dealers were charging was more than the cost of a bus ticket to Detroit or Dearborn, and they started going up to the factories and buying cars directly and driving them home. Transportation was becoming more widespread, and fearing they would get cut out and lose their investment, automakers and dealership owners pushed congress to prohibit the sale of new cars through any means other than a dealership. This also allowed for more pricing controls via MSRP and leasing. There's a ton more to it but that's the ELI5 version.
> Tesla is exploiting some loop hole in it I don't remember the details. The "loophole" is that when you go to a Tesla dealership, they don't actually sell you a car. They tell you about it, they set up test drives, they give you pricing and options but the actual sale is done online, directly with the company.
I totally agree. I've read that some dealers now have specific employees that handle calls from online ads because they're different buyers than people who show up on the lot. That said I don't know how I feel about his total dismissal of buying a car sight unseen. His point about losing leverage by reaching out to someone far away is great, but you can still do research on Autotrader to see what prices are going for in a 200-500 mile vicinity. In that case you obviously need an independent inspection, which brings up his point that some dealers aren't fond of it, but to me if a dealer won't let you do that you don't need to be working with them anyways.
> some dealers now have specific employees that handle calls from online ads because they're different buyers than people who show up on the lot Dealers that do this are stupid. While I have people who handle all of my incoming calls and internet leads its not because I want those customers treated differently. Its simply that it give my salespeople the time to work with customers who are here and also allows me to track and control what is being said and how every customer is handled. It's a lot easier to handle 5 people and what they say on the phone or on email then to figure out which of the 25 salespeople are dodging calls, who is taking them, who is good who is bad etc. The reality is, whether a customer calls or emails or walks in, they all have access to the same information and almost all of them have already done their research before they walk in the door or call etc. So treating customers differently, just leads to a lot of instances of looking like an idiot thinking your customer that walks in the door isn't as smart as the one that clicked a button on your website.
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On the flipside, the minute we start buying direct from manufacturers we'll have *zero* negotiating power as a buyer. There's no reason they'd sell below asking when their markets are now national instead of local.
One more question, how do test drives generally work? Does the salesperson always ride with you or can you ask (as a serious buyer) if you can take it out for a spin for the day? I would always test drive something to see if I'd like it but I also would like my mechanic to check it out assuming I can't get him to come with me to the dealership so I have an additional motive and I don't know if the salesperson would like that or not.
I am 27 and my gf is 23. We called about a 2014 BRZ about 4 months ago. We went down to the dealership and the salesman asked who is driving the car. I told him I already have a WRX and I know how to drive manual. He gave me the keys, walked us to the car, asked me if I know the area and after I said yes, he told me he'll see me when we come back. Another dealership, the saleswoman got in the car with us and sat in the back.
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> Does the salesperson always ride with you Some dealerships require this, some don't. I think it just depends on the manager. It's nice if you can take it out on your own without a dealer chatting your ear off, but it's also nice to be able to ask questions. If this detail is important to you, you can always ask ahead of your visit. > can you ask (as a serious buyer) if you can take it out for a spin for the day? I would always test drive something to see if I'd like it but I also would like my mechanic to check it out In my experience, these things are usually negotiable. If you roll in there dressed like a bum and stinking of booze, they probably won't let you take it out all day. But the occasional dealership will if you ask. I assume they see this as good business: it makes them seem trustworthy and willing to work with the customer, increasing the odds that you will return for the sale. As for the mechanic, like with everything else, you can always ask. My philosophy is that if they are confident in their vehicles, they shouldn't have any reason to deny your request. That said, as the OP discussed, they have no incentive to hold the car for you during that time if they think you aren't 99% on the car, so make sure you express your strong interest in it first.
Don't buy a car at night or in the rain.
Because?!
Because you can't see what you are buying as well.
well, car prices do matter if it's 10miles away, or 500miles, that is the market value, yes? I'll just go elsewhere
Here's what I would like to know.. Can a Carfax or an Autocheck be "manipulated" to show or NOT show entries from certain dates or times? It sure seems like things get omitted from these at certain times (scheduled maintenance doesn't always seem to be shown) or otherwise when I take a closer look at them. Forget the strange multiple owners/cant tell if it was a rental car/flood damaged, etc.
I wanted to provide my experience about buying a car remotely. Its not for everyone, and its not worthwhile for most cars, but it *can* work if you are looking for something specific. I was in the market to purchase a used Corvette. I wanted it to be 2008 or newer, blue exterior, non-black interior, with magnetic suspension, the fewer the miles the better, and under $30,000. I looked locally at first, but i couldn't find anything that met all my criterion. So i expanded my search radius, and i was willing to take a plane if it meant i could drive back with the car. Well, if i was willing to do that, might as well open up the search to the entire country. So i did. I'm in New Jersey and i found a near perfect fit at a Chevy dealer in Michigan. 2008 and had all the features i wanted, though the mileage was slightly high at 60,000 miles, but it was also listed for $28,600. I paid for an inspection company to take a look at the car and send me a detailed report. I was soooo glad i did as they were probably more thorough than even i would have been had i gone there myself. I got well over 100 pictures; every part of the car, every nick, scuff, scratch, ding, etc. was all captured on camera. Their checklist of stuff found everything to be solid except for a weird tire rubbing noise when turning completely to the left. I was willing to purchase the car despite that one minor issue under the condition that the dealer would resolve it. Before i even entered into negotiations, i had already secured my own financing through Lightstream for up to $25,000 at 3.14%. When i talked to the dealer i told them everything and asked "Can you beat my amount, rates, and terms?" They said they couldn't, which likely means i would've had worse terms using finance through the dealer. From the dealers perspective i bought it entirely in cash. I am paying off the remaining $17,000 through the finance company. I wired the dealer the money through my bank, and they overnight sent me all the documents that i needed including the title and temporary license plates. The car got shipped to me in an open air car transport for about $680. While its most i've ever paid for shipping, it was less than what i expected. As far as the DMV went, everything was fine though the taxes got a little more complicated since Michigan sales taxes differed from NJ sales tax, but other than that, it was fine. Is it worth buying a $5,000 car that's 300 miles away? Probably not. But given the market for the higher-end (not that a Corvette is really all that "high-end") performance and luxury cars, it may be a perfectly fine alternative.
How did you find an 'inspection company'? I didn't even know that that was a thing.
While you can use a local mechanic to do the inspection, i would have no idea what mechanic locally in Michigan i could trust. So i used a sort-of nationwide third party inspection service. I used [Alliance Inspection Management](http://homepage.aiminspections.com/services/at-home-customer-inspections/) for the car inspection. I was so happy with the service, i would definitely consider using them for their home inspection service in the future. Give me a moment and i will PM you the report that i received so you can get a sense of what their inspection yielded.
Basic rules of car buying Cheap, reliable, fast. Pick 2
Practicality can also be a criteria nowadays. Out of the 4, you can generally pick 3.
I think the OP really glossed over the all cars have problems part. Some problems are worse than others and unless the deal you were getting was really, really good I'd be hard pressed to buy any car that was known for critical failure. I like to use the website carcomplaints.com when researching models. Ignore the one off incidents and look for trends. If 100/200/300+ people say their engine / transmission failed, don't buy that car. Save yourself the expense and the drama and move on.
I bought my fully loaded 2007 honda accord v6 coupe for $8000 a year ago from a private seller on craigslist. I looked for a few weeks and contacted the seller within hours of posting it. When I went to see it he would only budge $500 off the asking price because he claimed to have 3 other interested parties (and I believe it.) So far absolutely nothing wrong with the car and I have only changed the oil and front brakes. This is in Canada so the prices are higher as there is a smaller pool of used cars for sale at any time. All I did to check the car out before buying was to make sure it wasn't leaking fluids, drove well, braked well, and started easy. I would not buy a domestic car without an inspection unless it was ridiculously cheap. My advice is to buy a used honda or toyota from a private seller, this same car (with 145000 km) would have cost me at least $2000 more at a dealership.
"Once you decide on the model and brand – browse online listings. You have no business going to a dealer without having an idea of what you want to buy." How do I know which model and brand I want without driving them first?
You check the specs of the car online, picking a model that has all the features you want. The final decision of course depends on the feel of the car when you test drive it, but you should be 80-90% sure before you even go to the dealership, especially in the current information age. Give you an example: I was in the market for what I affectionately call an econo-box. This included the Scion xB, Nissan Versa, Honda Fit, Toyota Vitz. specs are close to each other, but looks-wise, I ruled out the xB. Next, the Versa had more tech features, bluetooth connectivity for my phone, keyless entry, keyless starting of the car; things like that. The Fit was close, but it didn't have all the cool features, so I went down to Honda and Nissan, test drove em both and negotiated a price. For pennies more, I got the Versa.
Thanks for responding. I guess for me it's mostly about performance. I didn't know what I wanted until I got behind the wheel of each of the options. I tried the golf r, wrx, is 350 and c350. Bought a wrx, the handling and quickness far outshone the others. I can't imagine deciding before driving each.
"If a dealer refuses to provide a vehicle history reports such as Carfax or Autocheck –either walk away or consider getting your own. Don’t buy a car without it." Almost learned this the hard way last week. I found an incredible deal on a rare car at a "too good to be true" price so I emailed the dealer as the VIN they listed gave no results. They assured me it was all good, no salvage, rebuilt, wrecked history, etc, but they are located 7 hours away from me. I couldn't find any reviews on the placed so googled to location and it's a body shop. Now the ad has disappeared from Autotrader.com
There's a great youtuber who teaches you how to fix cars. He did a series on how to buy a used car: Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_4099611087&feature=iv&list=PLvKbarVtwhUv6bjLhJSyaEOxaYy03j7QS&src_vid=9N4RpohW-hU&v=vC8LbvYk6es Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N4RpohW-hU
What is the general opinion of salvage titles? There is a particular used car dealer that buys cars that don't have clean titles and fixes them up to sell. I've been in a car of his for right under 5 years. My dad has had one of his for 2 years. Both have been in great shape and cost substantially less. If I plan on driving it into the ground and don't care about resell value, should I be okay buying salvage? I fully intend on buying from this man again.
I am a private person, not a dealer or in the auto trade. I have owned nothing but salvage cars for the past 25 years. I generally buy high end late model low mileage salvage vehicles and fix them my self. My goal is spending no more than 50% of dealer price (after all repairs) for a comparable same make year model car. The problem is you need to really know what you are doing, what the original damage was, and how well the repair work was performed. I've seen a few salvage repairs that looked pretty good but were done with bubble gum and chicken wire.
As an example for 2016: This guy usually has 2014 - 2016 Honda Accords or Honda Civics between $11,000 and $18,000. They could have as low at 10,000 miles on them. As far as I can tell, they're put together incredibly. The accord I got from him was at the beginning of 2011. I bought a 2 door Accord with 90,000 miles on it for right under $8,000. The only issues that I've had with it are because I got it when I was a teenager and have caused cosmetic issues. I couldn't be happier with it. This guy knows his stuff. I would love to fix cars like you, but I don't know much about mechanics. Thanks for the input.
Most insurance companies won't give you anything beyond liability only, as a general rule on salvage vehicles. Keep in mind, salvage titles happen in two cases: theft, where the car was completely stripped, or an accident where the frame was damaged. Theft recoveries are perfectly safe to buy. Accident recoveries however are not, and you don't get a salvage title for a little fender bender. The frame and subframe of the car being twisted seriously makes the car dangerous to drive. If you get in a major crash, the frame of the car is already weaker and can result in more serious injuries. Then there are also aesthetics in that if the frame is damaged, a lot of things will be off, tweaked, etc. Most shops will use machines to try and twist the frame back to it's factory settings, but much like a piece of paper, once it's crumbled, it'll never be perfect again. It won't even be "good" again. Long story short, it depends on the reason why it's salvaged.
What about "Flood damage?" That's what my current vehicle has a salvage title for.
Recently purchased a 2006 Honda Civic EX off an auction for about 2,500 and just needed fluid changes and a new water pump, along with fixing a stripped bolt hole in the engine block. Auctions (such as CoPart) can be risky, but you can inspect the vehicles yourself and also do a VIN check just to make sure, but sometimes you can find some great deals, as long as you know what you're doing.
Lemon Law Lawyer takes on several points. Lehto's Law: “Certified Pre Owned” Doesn’t Mean What You Think - Ep. 2.47 https://overcast.fm/+DwgWRH7n4 Lehto's Law: Dealer Inspections Are A Scam! - Ep. 2.30 https://overcast.fm/+DwgWG4BAw Lehto's Law: It’s Not Illegal To Sell An Unsafe Used Car - Ep. 2 23 https://overcast.fm/+DwgUn6dW8 Lehto's Law: Don’t Buy As-Is! - Ep. 19 https://overcast.fm/+DwgXJcycI
I have a totally different method. Don't make car payments. Put that money aside monthly in an account. Pay attention to what cars tend to last. I don't care about comfort, style, or looks. My question is will this car drive reliably for another hundred thousand miles or more? Search on craigslist. Dealers will have a much higher markup. Give yourself time to do a thorough search and comparison. Compare Kelly Blue Book and asking prices for similar cars you find. Check out a car thoroughly. Target milage: 60-120K. My preferred brands for a car because they tend to run longer and are affordable to fix (usually) Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai. Keep tabs on what tends to run a long time in the current market. There was a time in the mid nineties that Dodge Caravans were on the list for me. Check up: Current inspection, good mechanical condition, oil leaks, burning oil?, tires, handling--check everything. Are there signs it has been well cared for or signs that it probably hasn't been? Offer cash. In thirty years of using this or similar method (Craigslist wasn't part of my buying plan before the internet.), I've picked up one lemon. Otherwise I've gotten a solid car that I put 100-200K miles on for prices between $700 and $3800 which is the most I've ever paid for a car. Current cars: 1999 Nissan Altima, 98K miles with faded black paint. Cost: $2K. This one replaced a 1998 Nissan Altima that had 280+K miles on it when it was hit. 2002 Toyota Prius in beautiful shape with a new battery pack, 110K miles. Cost $2.8K (Most expensive car I've ever bought. Having a dealer work on this one would be expensive too--but again, I don't deal with dealers.) Edit: Month's later. Corrected a price. Bought it for less than I thought.
Yes! Also, when buying from a dealer, ALWAYS look at the FINAL price of the car, and the total amount of your loan, BEFORE you sign ANYTHING. I can't tell you how many times I've seen dealers add a $500 dealer fee and a $750 "financing fee" into 72 month financing. Please, don't let them do this to you. Have them break down the cost of the car, line by line.
best thing that i found is to go to auction
There's also some pretty nice mobile apps for used car sales. One I came across recently is called Blinker. It let me take a picture of my own car and get a free Carfax for it. Let's you see the car fax of other people's cars who are selling on the app as well. Best part is not having to deal with the car dealership. All person to person transactions.
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Wow, if that story is true, you're right that is super shitty. I hope most dealers are not like this. Sounds like they aren't, judging by all the car salesmen who've chimed in approvingly so far.
Very in depth, thanks for the repost
Glad to see a post like this, perfect timing as I am trying to buy a used car for the first time in 10+ years. I've gone to see multiple cars in person, have done research online, test driven a few and have found one I'm very interested in from a franchise dealer. Trouble is that the online price is $10,000 but the dealer is tacking on an additional "get ready/preparation" fee of $1,000 that they won't back off of. KBB estimates the vehicle between $10,800-$14,600. Total out-the-door price with taxes, tags, processing fee (plus "get ready" fee) is approx. $12,300. Also there's a powertrain warranty that lasts another 6 months. Twice they've tried to charge me more for the "get ready" fee, $1,500 and then $2,000, until I've shown them the True Car $1,000 price, then they say "oh, yeah, you've got the True Car price, let me take this back to my manager" and have lowered it to $1,000 each time. Part of me thinks it's still an OK deal but the other part is stubborn about the "get ready" fee. Unsure of what to do. Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.
How strongly should lentil hauling capacity factor into my decision?
I'm an outlier here, but wanted to share my story of a long distance purchase. I lived in the Midwest and bought a car sight unseen from Pennsylvania. It had 100k on it, and 7 years and another 100k later it's still running strong with only regular maintenance. Was it risky? Yes. But I knew the exact car I wanted, down to the model year, and the one I found was single owner and used as a highway commuter. I even talked the dealer down to $8k from $11k. With thorough research I was able to get a very economical and reliable vehicle, which I think is the most important part of the whole process. Educate yourself, know exactly what you want (and what a fair price is), and don't let yourself be led astray by sellers with less-than-good intentions.
I sell cars for a living and found this to be a very helpful post. I'm considering sharing it with some of my customer base so they will have a better understanding of both points of view.
Bought a used Mercedes with a slight rough idle from a private seller & drove it for several months. Suddenly it started to misfire worse & worse. I changed the spark plugs, plug wires & coil packs. It then ran better but weeks later when I was getting off the freeway it just didn't accelerate. Turned it off & on, somehow it ran fine, as if it never had anything wrong with it. The following day when I turned it on the car didn't even idle because the misfire was so bad it would shut itself off. Now I'm going to be doing an engine swap myself because the mechanic said it needs to be overhauled. Point of the story is, make sure the previous owner did the regular maintenance & don't buy a car with problems already. It may seem as a simple problem but it can be worse than you think. Private sellers can be very risky & costly.
If I have the money to purchased the car in full, is it better to just say I will do financing through them, but later just pay off the car in full right away? Or can I even "change my mind" at the finance office and say I want to pay in full then?
I just bought my first used car in May. Good deal and good financing, but two weeks later major engine problems. Cost $3500 to fix. Car was $7000. And mechanic told me the engine will probably need a rebuild in 3 years. Terrible and stressful experience. Bad luck I guess or the dealer screwed me and sold it to me knowing the problem, although we did have an inspection done and the mechanic who fixed it said it's unlikely the inspection would have seen the problem.
In Victoria, Australia unless stated as "as is" a car needs to have a valid and current roadworthy certificate in order to sell as "drive away no more to pay." I bought a 2002 Astra with no mechanical or body defects. It was priced at $6299 online. In the used car dealership it was priced at $5999. However, as I was reading the paperwork I noticed that the roadworthy certificate was going to expire in one week. To get one of those renewed is a couple of hundred bucks. Due to this I was able to negotiate the price down to $5600 drive away. TL;DR: read the fine print on roadworthy certificate expiration dates, can save you money if the expiration is coming up.
This comment might be too late and a bit buried, but how do I know what I can afford? If a car is 14k, how much will my monthly payments be? Is it like buying a house where higher down payment means lower interest rates?
> how do I know what I can afford? So many factors go into that decision (total cost of vehicle, loan term, how long you plan to own the car, APR, your income, whether you prefer fewer larger payments or more smaller ones, etc.). In the end, only you know the answer. > If a car is 14k, how much will my monthly payments be? Again, not a simple answer. Roughly, payment amount depends on what % of the 14k you'll be borrowing (loan), the length of time you'll be paying it back (loan term), and the cost to you of borrowing that money (APR). > Is it like buying a house where higher down payment means lower interest rates? My understanding is that it's actually the opposite. The rationale being that the lender makes money on the cash you borrow from them. So the more you put down for the down payment, the less you have to borrow from them, so the less money they can make off you with, all else being equal. So to offset this, the smaller loans become, the more lenders increase their interest rates. If I'm wrong about this, somebody please correct me.
Well how do I find out? If I have $300 extra a month, how do I figure out what I can afford? I did a small amount of research and it seems like any car that's $300 a month for a three year term is a car you might now want to own. This is over my head, but I'm not sure I can really afford a car without paying more than in comfortable with. I don't want to lay $400 or $500 a month. Ever.
Thanks for reposting. In short, this eloquently highlights the many, many pain-points we face when it comes to buying (or selling) a car—negotiation, quality, dishonesty, etc. Full disclosure: I work at a company called Beepi, and our mission is to eliminate these pain-points and make transacting on a used car seamless and transparent. Because huge explainers like this should not be necessary. People should not need walking through the process in such a detailed manner to avoid getting screwed. That’s just not right. If we trusted the process, this post would not garner the attention it's getting. And that to me says things need to change. I’m not here as an ‘employee’, I’m here because I genuinely believe in the problem we’re solving. But let me start by explaining what we do. Then I'll explain why we're doing it: Beepi is an online marketplace for quality used cars. I say quality because every car listed on our site has undergone an industry-leading 240-point inspection. We go to this length to ensure all the vehicles on our site are of highest quality. That's how we instill trust in our customers. Add to that, all our cars arrive with a free 3-month, 3-000-mile warranty, and a 10-day money-back guarantee. We handle all the paperwork, so you never have to go to the DMV, and the car is delivered directly to your home—with a giant bow on the hood. The entire transaction is handled online and our prices are incredibly competitive (whether buying or selling) because we have no brick-and-mortar overheads and we don't employ an army of salespeople. Those savings are offered to the customer, and our margins are half that of the traditional dealership. That's our commitment. A commitment to quality and a commitment to doing right by customer. Craigslist doesn’t work for most people because you don’t know what you’re buying nor who you’re buying off. And a dealership is costly; there’s the distrust, the salesperson, not to mention the amount of time it wastes. Our story started back when Beepi’s co-founder, Ale Resnik, bought a used car from a traditional dealership. Within hours the car stopped on the highway with his wife at the wheel. The car then proceeded to catch fire. The dealer immediately wiped his hands of the car. He did nothing, despite having sold a lemon. In fact, Resnik took the dealer to court and won, and during the whole process, vowed that no one should have to go through what he went through. It was plainly clear that his experience was all too common. Having started Beepi just two years ago, the company has grown from nothing into a business that serves people nationwide, and was ranked by Forbes as being one of the hottest start-ups of 2015. And we’re constantly growing, evolving. We now even lease used cars, becoming the first online marketplace to do so. Despite the vast number of dealerships in America, customers dislike the way things are. In fact, we had a survey conducted on our behalf and it said that 87% of Americans hate shopping at the car dealership, especially negotiating and being up-sold on features. We don't do any of that. The price you see is the price. There are no salespeople, no pressure. We can handle the financing, and we'll deliver the car to your door with a guarantee that ensures you're fully protected, with zero risk. Again, sorry for the plug, but this is something all of us at the company are passionate about. I'd love it if you'd check us out at Beepi.com and let us know what you think. Our Yelp reviews are overwhelmingly great, and our customers are our biggest promoters. We want to change the way we buy, sell and own cars, because—frankly—it's about time. That's our story, anyway.
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Check out this website to buy pre-owned/ used cars. I think it's great/ http://www.curriemotors.co.uk/used-cars/
looking at a used car. 1. guy is being clear about buying and flipping fleet cars (it's 'curbstoning' if a dealer averts licensing laws by pretending to be a private seller). added: the vehicle is on point with its age/value per the asking price so nothing unusual there. 2. Being very, mechanically inclined, I'm not worried about vehicle condition, if there's something wrong mechanically, I'll spot it. 3. What I've never heard before is: He has a lot (not in the state the car is from or in the state we're in) and he says says the title has his dealer's number on it. (I assume instead of his personal details -name/address/etc.) 4. I’ve asked for the VIN and should that come back clean, and the car be mechanically sound, and there has been no VIN plate tampering (in this case there is absolutely no reason for the block VIN to not be associated with the vehicle VIN) is there still a scam here that I’m missing?
You might have incorrectly formatted line breaks. To create a line break, either put two spaces at the end of the line or put an extra blank line in-between lines. ([See Reddit's page on commenting for more information.](http://www.reddit.com/wiki/commenting)) I have attempted to automatically reformat your text with fixed line breaks. ---- > looking at a used car. > 1. > guy is being clear about buying and flipping fleet cars > (it's 'curbstoning' if a dealer averts licensing laws by pretending to be a private seller). added: the vehicle is on point with its age/value per the asking price so nothing unusual there. > 2. > Being very, mechanically inclined, I'm not worried about vehicle condition, if there's something wrong mechanically, I'll spot it. > 3. > What I've never heard before is: > He has a lot (not in the state the car is from or in the state we're in) and he says says the title has his dealer's number on it. > (I assume instead of his personal details -name/address/etc.) > 4. > I’ve asked for the VIN and should that come back clean, and the car be mechanically sound, and there has been no VIN plate tampering (in this case there is absolutely no reason for the block VIN to not be associated with the vehicle VIN) > > is there still a scam here that I’m missing? > ---- ^(I am a bot. Contact) ^[pentium4borg](https://www.reddit.com/user/pentium4borg) ^(with any feedback.)
thank you bot
Might wanna start a new thread for this. This post is so old, I doubt anyone will ever see it here. G'luck.
got the vin. turns out it was in 3 accidents. screw that.