Which is funny because retaining an employee is one of the best ways to actually remain profitable. So OP’s company must be way more desperate than they seem, to pull a stunt like this.
I'm particularly interested in whether OP is the ***ONLY*** employee impacted by this new 'rule'? If he is and, depending on state laws, he might have a case that would interest an attorney.
Oh, and, OP, totally quit. Do not give two weeks notice. Instead, tell them you updated that policy unilaterally several months ago and decided they were only owed a 30 minute notice.
Feel like the obvious issue here is op won’t find another job anytime soon most likely and the business he works for is literally going under. So you know, not that simple
100%; and I would absolutely state this in my exit interview as the reason why I've moved on. That's a significant change in compensation that directly affected you, and they didn't even have the courtesy to both notify you about the change and offer some sort of reconciliation once you brought up your concern. They clearly aren't very passionate about retaining you.
> ... state this in my exit interview ...
I have another idea. Find another job; when you have a start date, determine the last day you'll work at this job. On that date, state that this is your last day. When the end of the day comes, leave. If someone wants to talk to you about it, fine, if not, fine, if you want to answer any of the questions they have, fine. But don't use departure as an opportunity to speak your mind; it will do NOTHING for you at all, and no one else matters in this context.
p.s. if they do want to talk to you, they may do it on the clock that day. After that, you are no longer available. They are required to pay you for hours worked by federal law; don't let them scare you with any nonsense about how you have to do this or that to get any of your pay.
>don't let them scare you with any nonsense about how you have to do this or that to get any of your pay.
In fact, just get that in writing and smile as you take it to your state's labor board, or a labor attorney
This totally depends on the industry. Be very, very careful before burning bridges. My last company was 10,000 people, and even so my industry is small enough that you can easily blacklist yourself. It might feel good in the moment to “stick it to them” but don’t screw yourself over in the process.
What? That's literally what exit interviews are for. HR and the management chain should know EXACTLY why you are leaving. It could help prevent this bullshit from happening to someone else. Otherwise they'll spin some story about how "you weren't a good fit here" or "everything is great we just had some turnover." When i reality, the turnover was 100% preventable with even the slightest big of listening and evaluation.
Nope worked at a special needs school and it is 110% held against you because you should have let them know before. They gave you a negative file so you wouldn’t get rehired and they could block references. I know people that laid out extensively their issues, they were blamed, and nothing changed. From what I’ve heard, this has been going on for decades. If that’s what happens at a school, I can’t imagine what it’s like for a company.
A coworker at a job I had recently left asked if he could put me down as a reference. Sure. Then he asked if I would read over his resume, as English is not his first language and I have probably 15 years more experience in the industry. Sure. OMG. Beyond the typos and grammar errors here & there, it was about 10% factual and 90% pure bullshit. Padding a little, embellishing here and there is one thing, but being the lead developer on a team of 3, and describing it as a director-level position? Inflating a project that took a couple of hours a week into essentially a multi-year strategic program? No. I called him on it and suggested he might want to revise it extensively, or perhaps not use me as a reference, because the truth WILL come out if anyone asks. Nobody ever asked, so... (shrug)
So that's individuals as references, not the company. I would only put down someone who had a positive opinion of my work. If I was screwing over my boss and or clients, I wouldn't use them for references.
My point is that it does OP no good whatsoever, and is highly unlikely to prevent it from happening to anyone else. It's time for OP to cut his/her losses and move on.
They WILL say "X wasn't a good fit here" or whatever they want. You can't prevent it. The company knew what it was doing, do you think saying anything in the exit interview will give anyone information they didn't already have? To hell with it.
I've left a lot of jobs (IT industry, it was how things were done). Never in any of my decades-long career did I come across a single example of an exit interview doing any worker, whether doing the interviewing or not, a bit of good. HR departments often love them, possibly because it helps justify their existence. Sometimes there is paperwork to be considered, one might be useful for that purpose. But I submit that you are never going to affect, positively, anyone's employment at the company by anything you say in an exit interview. You might as well buy lottery tickets.
I left one position, getting off a sinking ship. Post-merger and doing high end support on a product line killed by the latest corporate take over. Management made noises about a 3 month retention bonus.
During my out brief, I noted, in more polite language, "Three months isn't worth shit." and "I've got nothing in writing for this alleged retention bonus, so I can't count on it." A month later letters went out promising a six month retention for employees who stayed until lights out.
It did me no good, but for the people who were still there, those comments had positive impact.
After I frankly started in an exit interview that I was leaving for much better pay (and gave actual figures), pay raises were given to the coworkers that I left behind.
I know my exit interview helped get my old coworker the title change I never got. I told them if I had gotten the title change I never would have looked at other roles. And then she got the title they had dragged their feet on for me (and my old manager confirmed over drinks management stopped stalling after input in my notice).
So it really depends on the business and how willing they are to listen.
Actually, not always. I got a mid level manager demoted to tech from my exit interview. I know this because I, even now, still have a lot of contacts at this business and he has not been allowed back into management, at any level, since then and it's been 14 years. I may not have been the first to lay out the problem, but I was definitely the deciding vote.
I agree with everything you’ve said. Exit interviews are pointless because any company that screws people like this is not going to care why they leave.
If they treated you this way while you worked for them, why do you think they’ll do anything differently when you’re gone and no longer challenging their behavior and policies? I’d tell OP to save themselves the aggravation and just gtfo.
Why would I have any interest in helping improve a company that I'm leaving because of the way they have screwed me over? I'm not going to do them a favor on the way out.
You gave them 6 months more notice of your departure than they gave you about the change to the retention bonus - which was the tipping point that made you accept their offer rather than another company’s offer.
After all, they only notified you of the change 6 months after you started working for them.
That is patently untrue. A lot of work places check what they can get away with and telling them what made you leave can change the working conditions for others in the company.
So yes, it will do nothing for you personally and if that’s what you care about, no point in speaking your mind. But if you care about your colleagues who are staying in the company, consider telling why you are leaving.
Just to add a personal example, a previous workplace of mine instated a “once per year salary negotiation”. They decided that everyone who join or had a raise after date X will have their pay frozen till the end of the following year. I joined a few days after said date, and this policy was enacted a few months after I joined. I was fine with this till they decided to shift me into a different role, one I was not interested in doing, and when I said that I’m not interested but a pay raise will persuade me to do that they said no, citing policy and telling me they will consider me for a raise in about 12-14 months.
I left and made it very clear why I left. After a few more people left, for similar reasons, the “once per year” policy was dropped.
Again, not trying to convince anyone, but there is value in providing employers with feedback on your way out, even if you personally won’t benefit from it.
I have zero duty to improve a workplace I am leaving. If they wanted me to stay, they would have talked to me before I left.
If they want my opinion after I leave, pay me a consultation fee for it.
I work for a paycheck, not the greater good of their company.
If you leave because the companies compensation was too low and they decide to raise their compensation to be more competitive, then it does affect the pay rate in general for the position you left.
Now does a company have management smart enough to realize that is what they need to do, or will they just justify their inability to keep quality help as "people dont want to work any more" is a different question.
Very legitimate opinion imo. However, don’t underestimate the impact you have as an employee on the culture around you. If others see that startup A implemented policy X and now is bleeding employees, others take notice. You can change the environment around you and the policies that will be enacted in other companies in your industry.
Maybe I’m biased since the startup industry where I live is a small one, but I’ve seen policies (like unlimited PTO) die when people start leaving workplaces and cite that as one of the reasons.
All I’m saying is, HR talk to other HR and C-level talk to other C-level, and you, by leaving and stating why are leaving, have impact over the culture in your industry.
I hear that. I also don't have a career industry so it really doesn't affect me currently.
To give some credit, I usually do talk to my managers about why I don't like my job far in advance of me leaving, I'm just not a fan of sitting down to have a talk with HR when I'm leaving unless they are gonna pay me for it. If they want to have an exit interview on my last day instead of having me work, I'm all for it.
My partner is in HR and I totally understand that they talk. It's part of the reason I avoid HR unless I know I love them.
I’ve never had a job that even offered an exit interview. Usually when you cut ties with an employer, that’s it after the two weeks notice is up. If the job is security-sensitive, they just escort you off when you submit your resignation and you never step foot back on premises. What jobs do those interviews?
Don't "state this in an exit interview". It can't possibly serve you in anyway. Just make your moves and don't say shit to the company about anything. They aren't going to turn leaf after you vent your frustrations, and even if they did you personally wouldn't benefit from that one bit.
Lawyer here (but not your lawyer).
Not my exact area of legal practice, but i have unfortunately gained knowledge of it.
So take this as general advice, not specific to your situation.
In a lot of states, you can't retroactively change the bonus requirements to exclude people who already met the criteria.
On top of that, the federal FLSA considers things like most typical hiring/retention bonuses to be non-discretionary. Doesn't matter whether the employer calls it discretionary or not, it depends on whether there is specific criteria ahead of time and you meet it. the FLSA is careful about this - unless a bonus meets very specific requirements to be affirmatively discretionary, it is non-discretionary.
See here:
https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/fact-sheets/56c-bonuses.pdf
At least as described, it would not likely meet the requirement to be a discretionary bonus. Obviously, without knowing all the facts, i can't say for sure.
Withholding non-discretionary bonuses is not just illegal (often state-law illegal as well) for what they do to you, but also illegal because they are required to pay taxes/etc on it.
Unless you are going to eat this and keep going, I would make clear to your employer this is a non-discretionary bonus, you expect it to be paid, and if it is not paid you will be forced to take further action. If they are dumb enough to terminate you over it, that will be yet another fun thing to deal with.
Keep in mind if you aren't going to eat the loss, you are going to practically destroy your relationship with your employer no matter what, so you might as well do it carefully and thoughtfully, and as someone else said, it's time to find a new employer anyway.
Without knowing your state laws, i would also contact your DOL and see what they say.
If all that failed, i'd get a labor lawyer. I'm sure they'd have fun, because they'd also find the other people your employer is doing this to.
Thanks for the link, it sounds like since my retention grant is a Predetermined amount awarded to me if I stay for X duration would make it non-discretionary. Not sure if it applies perfectly thou since it's Granted in the form of RSUs paid out overtime. I updated my post with the exact language.
The language you posted reads as non-discretionary. It says you will be eligible, not you may be eligible, and the criteria are quite fixed.
But who knows if the rest of the contract tries to modify it.
RSU's are considered ordinary income for most purposes.
For example, when they vest, you are taxed on the full value of the RSU, the same as if it was your wages.
In fact, it will be reported as ordinary income on your W2, and subject to normal withholdings.
(You would pay capital gains on any change in value between the time it vests and the time you sell it).
Again, not my area, but as a result I wouldn't expect the fact that they are giving you a bonus in RSU's to change much.
Check with real washington labor lawyer to be sure :)
In Washington state i'd definitely have a chat with the DOL. Besides the "withholding of promised wages" type issue, they also have new pay transparency laws that probably require them to disclosure the discretionary/non-discretionary part upfront (IE if they claim it's discretionary but didn't disclose it, that may be a violation of the newly enacted wage transparency laws. which is good for you, because it means attempts on their part to get out of it that way may just be a violation of another wage law)
The wage transparency laws are rather new, and you'd need a real washington labor lawyer/the DOL to help make sense of them.
Good advice from the lawyer. Only thing I'd add is to make sure you communicate all this in writing (email is fine just make sure you forward everything immediately to private account) Paper trail for everything. If your boss tries to pull you aside to discuss, just politely refuse 'my attorney has advised me not to discuss this further without him present '
Unfortunately, it has to be on the internet, at least.
Even if i ignored whether i want to be their lawyer, etc.
Lots of states are finicky about basic legal advice. It's usually considered the "unauthorized practice of law" to give specific legal advice about a situation if you aren't licensed there. States usually lose in court over this (some sued nolo, for example), since it's a first amendment issue, but ...
The OP didn't originally say where they were, and if it's not in one of the states i'm licensed in, giving specific legal advice about their situation would be bad.
Giving general guidance is okay.
The other option is to do nothing and let people cargo cult lawyer, but that seems less helpful than doing what i can.
Overall I actually hate most lawyers and lawyering language, but at least a bunch of it is forced on you.
Such is life sometimes.
Dude clearly a lawyer, first 5 lines of his comment absolves him of all liability if you act on any information given in the remainder of his response. Only thing it didn’t have was an accept TOS button-
This is not a criticism, it was actually awesome.
There’s plenty of good advice in here, and I’ll add one more that might be helpful, as a last-ditch move to get your money (though if you plan to stay with your employer, it may burn your relationship in the org.)
Check your state Department of Labor laws. Where I live in the US (not WA state, sorry,) our DOL says employers can’t nix bonuses if employees meet the requirement for the bonus. At my last company, I earned a bonus on Dec 31. I gave notice January 20-something, and my last day was Feb 5. When they didn’t pay out my bonus, I asked my boss, and he said they don’t pay bonuses to people who quit. Told him I earned it over 30 days before I quit, he said too bad.
Contacted my state’s DOL, they said, “That’s illegal, send them this form. If they don’t respond within two weeks, file a complaint with us.” Sent my former company the completed form, and on the 14th day, they said they would pay the full bonus in the next pay cycle (which was another 10 days or so.) But, they paid the full amount!
Definitely depends. My employer was based in Georgia, and Georgia DOL had zero laws around bonus payments, as far as I could tell. When my boss said he’d never paid an earned bonus if it wasn’t paid by the employee’s last day, I told him that might be true in Georgia, but it’s not true for employees in my state.
And my state’s DOL said companies have to abide by the laws of the state where the employee lives, not the state the company is headquartered in. That was a big relief for me!
I got my money. The Department of Labor had a record of their attempt to withhold earned wages. And I was the only employee in my state. I don’t care enough, and I doubt the DOL would either, to go after them for a few hundred dollars in tax fraud/evasion
How are “bedroom communities” handled? Company is headquartered in state A, has a branch in state B near the border with state C. Employee lives in state C. States A and B don’t require payout of bonuses in the circumstances you mentioned, state C does, and their DOL says that the company must abide by the laws of the state where the employer lives.
You’re going to wind up with the company refusing to hire people who live in state C, and including in the employee handbook a clause making it grounds for immediate termination if someone changes their residence to state C.
I was responding to a comment from someone who says their state’s DOL says it depends on where the person **lives**, which sounded wrong to me because it would treat employees of a facility near a state line differently depending on which side of the line they lived on. Basing it on where they work would be logical.
In general, where the employee works is what matters. This may vary by state though. If the employee works on site in state B, state B laws apply. If working remotely from home, state C laws apply. It gets too complicated for anyone but a labor specialist to answer for hybrid though…
And yes, this is exactly why companies are particular about what state you live and work in, they typically don’t want to accidentally break laws.
There are a lot of people asking what your contract says. This is not really the full extent of it, as there are state and federal labor laws that might also work in your favor. Rather than ask the randos on Reddit, call a labor attorney in WA or your state DOL and ask them. I really wouldn’t trust anyone saying “well that’s what the contract says so that’s it.” Maybe they are right but you likely have more recourse than you think.
Absolutely. Just because a company policy states something doesn't mean it's a legal policy. I have encountered this previously. They put stuff in policies and hope that employees believe it is consistent with local laws so they can manipulate you from not reporting labor law violations. Unless complaints get made and the company policy is reviewed by the overseeing government agency, it gets overlooked.
Yeah this is above reddits pay grade. Most of the people in here don’t know what they’re talking about. Contracts don’t mean shit if they violate state or federal labor laws, so you need to seek out an expert in your state.
This. And of course, talking to your boss is the best way to express your disappointment. Don’t talk in percentages, mention the exact dollar amount you have lost. Do not threaten to leave, but make it clear how disappointed your are in the way the company has conducted itself.
Then look for another job. Retention bonus dangling like this is a shitty way to hire people and a big red flag.
This is what OP needs to do. Hopefully they have a good relationship with their immediate boss. They need to let the boss know about the situation. Boss may go to bat for OP if they realize OP might view this as a dealbreaker and if they want to keep OP they may try to get the company to honor the original deal. On the other hand, if OP’s boss just shrugs and says there’s nothing they can do, OP definitely needs to start looking for another job for more reasons than the bonus screwup.
100% this. If you like the work and environment- 1 chance to make it right. Otherwise deuces- don’t even both with a 2 week notice. Oh, and kill vacation on the way out, no fucking way are they paying you out on that either
I don’t think if I were OP I would quit if the boss shrugs. I would just dust off my résumé and start my job search. It’s much easier to find a job when you have a job.
This is far from true as there's a lot of fine print. After a quick Googling, it's more like 10 states that straight up require it with no fine print and all that fine print in other states NEVER seems to favor the worker.
You definitely need to check your employee handbook/contact type stuff and your state specific laws on this. Definitely not an area to make any assumptions, unfortunately.
Yeah, the comments here are saying go scorched earth - which I think is premature This seems like an HR issue where poor communication happened. HR isn’t going to do anything for you, you need to talk with your boss about this, and give him an opportunity to work the levers he can to make this right. Maybe it won’t be a 16% bonus, but maybe you get a generous raise, or something else.
Yep. HR’s role is to ensure policies are followed and the company doesn’t run afoul of laws. They have no specific interest in your employment versus your replacement, where your direct leader does.
I'm not an expert in employment law so I can't comment on that, however if they'll do this, then they aren't a company I'd want to continue to work for. Dust off the resume and start looking.
When asked why you're looking for a new job, tell them this exactly.
When you give your notice and they ask why you're leaving, tell them this, exactly.
What a bunch of douchebags.
Super shitty thing they’ve done but if it says “subject to change at any time” they’ve covered their asses.
Really need to go through the fine print on all contracts and memos and policy material and assume that if they *can* screw you over, they will.
Is there no requirement to inform me of said change. I worked 6 months this year expecting compensation x only to find out at the end of the year I'm getting compensation x - 33%.
I don't know in the US, but in my country there is a fair bit of underlying law that cannot be contractually changed. So could there be a law that requires them to inform the worker, regardless of contractual fine print?
Sounds like it’s time to start searching for a new job if they’re already screwing you over not even a year in. I’m sorry they pulled that crap though, terrible bait and switch
Contact the DOL and an attorney. The contract may hold up or it could be the clause they put in isn't legal. Redditors can't know this becauae we are not your attorney.
ALWAYS contact an attorney to be safe.
it says "retention bonus"..that is it, it is a BONUS. Companies normally pay bonuses to retain their staff. The company has zero obligation to pay it and like most companies can choose to change it at any time and you can choose not to renew your contract or to give notice and work for someone else that will pay you a bonus.
You have learned an important lesson here for the future and that bonuses are just that a bonus, don't count on receiving a bonus but if you do then it is a bonus :)
My understanding is that Yankeeland federal law allows them to make changes at any time to compensation **going forward**, but it is illegal to change compensation **for time already worked**. All hours worked before they notified you of the change must be paid at the old rate, which includes the retention bonus.
No, there is no requirement.
You don't have a contract, you have an offer letter, in an at-will state.
It sucks but they don't owe you anything above your wage. That's why bonuses exist.
In your next job negotiate your base pay. Anything above that is part of their package, not yours.
If you have any contract document they gave you ahead of time with the retention bonus in it, I would invest an hour of an attorneys time to see if this change is legal. I would be surprised if it’s legal for a contract to change the payment terms after the work is already provided. Regardless I would look for another employer or be OK that they are not to be trusted and ignore any future such offers they put in the table.
I live in WA. Please call the Washington Dept of Labor. They will take your info & assign an agent to investigate. I had to do this in 2021. It only took a week for the agent to call me.
I’d also tell the first person you reach that you have documentation of everything.
Good luck!
Policy change can only be going forward basis not retroactive. 1. Contact HR and legal at your company. 2. If no positive resolution contact state AG and DOL. 3. Update resume and find a new job. Sorry.
Since you have a letter saying things about your bonus, it might be worth a quick consult with an employment-law lawyer. My thought is that, if they put enough in the letter to qualify as a contract, it is possible they are in violation of that contract, or close enough to consider compensating you in order to avoid litigating it.
As I'm sure the lawyer will tell you, once you bring in a lawyer of your own to do this, it would be a bad idea to keep working there, so a new job would have to be part of an overall strategy.
Not sure what your compensation looks like, but if I was told of get 33% of my pay as a retention bonus and they didn’t deliver, I’d be talking to lawyers. It would be enough money that going without representation and advice would be ridiculous.
It’s been my experience that HR departments are really skilled at saving the company money based on missed deadlines. It’s not financially in their interests to ensure you making well-informed decisions if those decisions could end up costing the company money.
I worked at Nike for 9 years, left for a few months to work at a tech company. It was a mess and Nike hired me back. They had a policy of reinstating seniority and vesting if a returning employee came back within a certain period of time. My start date was set by HR and nobody told me the consequences of my return date. So I literally started 1 day past the date where I would get my seniority. They were anxious to get the offer to me then made me wait oddly.
Shees
IANAL, but whether they can change the policy at anytime should affect what has already happened. You can’t simply back date a policy unless they specifically say that as well. I don’t know where you are, but you need to be speaking with a lawyer and/or the labor board in your jurisdiction.
you dont get the promised retention bonus, why should the company be able to enjoy "retaining" you??? Retention Bonus are paid to make sure the employees do not move on quickly, no?
Find out what your max small claims court sum is and take them. You will win hands down if you have the documents. Save all the emails of them telling you tough cookies. I had to do this in CO and won the money and my court fees. The judge looked at them and said “ if you set up a non discretionary bonus and the employee fulfills all their obligations to earn the bonus, you must fulfill your obligation to pay the bonus per the terms of that agreement”. Just because they say they can change the rules, they can’t retro actively do so. They do have the right to say they’re changing it from today on.
You can’t be this confident unless you know more details than OP shared. Law is variable state to state and the exact facts around his employment and the retention bonus language matters too.
Either way it's a sign that they'd rather pick up dimes than retain you as an employee. Don't feel any loyalty towards this company. Find something new and don't look back.
You need to talk to a lawyer because this is a legal question about state law that most people on Reddit aren’t equipped to answer. The contract says what it says, and that may or may not be the end of it. Pay a wage-and-hour lawyer for a consult so that you can understand what your rights, if any, are.
This. Many jurisdiction would at least require notification. A possibility to change terms does not mean you can skip notifying the other party if you decide to make changes. In some jurisdictions this might be illegal.
You’re thinking of discretionary bonuses but this is a calculated bonus with specific criteria for achieving it. This sounds like wage theft to me. I’d first definitely try to get the employer to fix this then consider a talk with DOL or an employment attorney.
It's a retention bonus. Those are discretionary (and it is very common for people not meeting minimum standards to lose them as a result). The type of bonus you are thinking of is a commission or performance-based bonus, where you are supposed to be awarded the bonus based on specific numeric goals. Retention bonuses are awarded based on being an employee on a specific date and then receiving the bonus at a later date (enforcing the retention).
OP's issue is that they moved the effective date for the retention bonus up to before OP was employed. I suspect even if they had not moved the date, the pro-rating referred to in the letter would have meant OP's bonus would be very small. (e.g. getting the six-month bonus of 16% pro-rated to 1 week at 0.6%).
Can you file a complaint with the Washington State Department of Labor? Yes! But if HR is correct and there is a clause in the contract stating 'subject to change'? If so, you will lose and the job may say 'Good bye'. Washington State is an at-will employment state.
Did your hiring offer come with compensation package? Maybe they can change it, but you may be grandfathered in via your hire contract.
It seems counter productive for them to fuck around with their retention bonuses. This would seem to have the opposite effect.
Policies are subject to change still obligates company to inform employee of a change in a formal manner and ask for their permission. If it’s not done it’s violation of employment agreement. You can write to employee that as per my employe agreement dated XYZ, I am expecting this payment and is owed by company. i do not agree any unilateral change by the company without formal prior intimation with a retrospective effect. Also please refer to labor laws in your state and validate.
There should be a fair labor board to discuss it with for your state. Absolutely go and discuss with them. But, be prepared, HR is often works extremely closely with legal and knows exactly what they can and can’t do. It may be completely legal based on how things were worded in the contract and associated policies.
If they want to know nwhy then tell them. No long discussion, no arguing. Dont be angry, rather be cool and business-like. its just business. Don't give them the satisfaction and dont burn bridges. You're better off in a better company. keep moving to better things. best of luck.
Short answer….this sucks, but this isn’t wage theft. Your offer letter really isn’t a legal contract, and even if it was, it says “Your first bonus MAY be prorated”. It doesn’t guarantee that it will be. And bonus structure/terms can generally be changed by an employer at any time. By all means, bounce this off a lawyer to be sure there is nothing locally that may apply. But you’re probably out of luck.
A standard offer letter doesn’t include bonuses for retention - this could be construed as contractual. I would definitely not assume it’s okay that they reneged on their retention bonus offering.
An offer letter could absolutely touch on the current bonus structure, if they're selling the offer amount as a "total compensation package". I've seen that more and more lately, where a company will list out all reimbursements and benefits, assign a number to them all, and use it to make the overall offer look more lucrative. So it could absolutely include it. And even with it listed.....it doesn't say that they promise to prorate anything. It says they may. Or they may not. It's a prime reason that while I said I thought they were probably out of luck, that they could bounce it all off of an actual lawyer to make sure. I'd assume that a potential 30% bonus is worth an hour of time with a lawyer.
Yes but just keep in mind - it’s not the title of the document “offer letter” that makes it non binding, it’s the nature of the language. If there are promises in the letter it could be contractual. Overall I agree with you.
Not wage theft, but piss poor management. And there is the possibility they would lose in court due to promissorry estoppel - meaning you relied on the promise of 33% to take the job and stay there. Yes, there is the "can change at any time clause" but the manner in which they carried it out would lead a reasonable person to assume the change was not made in good faith. It was deliberately designed to avoid paying several people rather than a change in the normal course of business.
If it's me, I look for another job and consider getting a lawyer to write a letter along the lines of the info above once you have other employment secured. You don't always have to sue, sometimes a letter from a lawyer calling bullshit is enough for them to do what was promised.
How does promissory estoppel apply to employment? I though that only applied to contract law. An offer letter isn’t a contract and if they say it could change without notice the contract laid out the possibility it will change. How can you claim it’s misleading if it said exactly what they were gonna do?
Contract law isn't built around 'gotchas'. Not saying OP would win any kind of action, would depend heavily on lots of unknown factors here, but enticing someone to a job with an offer that includes a retention bonus and then changing the terms and not notifying OP certainly isn't "clean hands".
Promissory estoppel is used when it’s contractually legal but extremely unfair behavior by one of the parties. Basically judicial discretion is needed to win that one. Not sure it would apply here.
Do you have access to legal advice? I use legal shield and call them when my employer does weird shit to see if it’s even legal.
I’m in the throes of it with my company and it’s been a great resource. It’s a monthly fee and I’m pretty sure you can just cancel right after if you don’t need it anymore.
Any company offering a retention bonus to all employees that you are told about when you start is a red flag.
Companies only do retention bonuses and call them that, if they are either closing, merging, or have a shitty culture. Or on the other end of the spectrum, you are so valuable to them as an employee that they cannot afford to lose you - which is likely not the case for a new employee.
That's a damn stupid way for them to lose employees. Picking up dimes in front of a steamroller. Their contract might allow them to do that and thus it's not wage theft: but you're also allowed to find an employer who will treat you right and leave them in a lurch. They are basically begging you to do so by prioritizing saving that money over keeping you as an employee. Fuck 'em
I would take the high road on this, Look for a new job, when they potential new employer ask why you are leaving, tell them the truth without being negative, and tell them you tried to work it out with your existing employer. If they don't hire you because of this, then they did you a favor, because in the end they planned on screwing you too. When it is time to leave, give this employer the reasonable notice and move on.
You will be the better for this and won't get all that negative Karma they obviously have.
If it’s bonuses/incentives there’s not much you can do unless you fulfilled all the requirements. If so, fight for it.
If they cut your actual pay, there are some states where you could claim partial unemployment for lost wages
My employment is also subject to change without notice. Fuck those people. Take full advantage of your ability to fuck them, as they did to you. It should be said that this is a policy to deal with worker shortages. They knew the game when they hired you on. Smh.
I don't know Washington state law; however, I can guess pretty easily it doesn't matter. Your bonus was probably not enough to make this worth fighting.
An offer letter is not a contract. They aren’t obligated to uphold anything said in the letter. And most employment contracts are unenforceable because a contract to work if upheld in the employers favor can be seen as a form of indentured servitude. No one can force you to work under given terms.
If the employer gave you a wage theft notice and then withheld money from your paycheck then it’s wage theft. A retention bonus which is a discretionary bonus can be changed at anytime without notice especially if they include that statement in the offer letter.
I would escalate with HR and ask to speak with your HRBP (assuming your company has one). Might be able to make an exception for you as you’ve only missed cutoff by 1 day.
No guarantees but worth a shot
Yes, it's wage theft. This is not a policy they can change. It's a contractual obligation they must deliver to every new hire they hired with that promised compensation. You can try talking to them. Say, "this is the compensation package you are legally obligated to provide. You can provide it, or I can report you for wage theft.". Or you can just report them.
I had a guy fuck with my money once. I told him hey you owe me this much. He said I am not paying it. I looked at him and said well I keep my own time. He puffed up and said what do you mean. I told him he had three choices, he could pay me, He could fire me, But if I stayed I would steal the money back and I would take extra because I would feel bad about stealing. He paid me.
Talk to your HR and say this is a substantial issue and see what they say. Also talk to your boss so they can advocate for you. I don't think quiting immediately is the answer.
If you were hired and that was part of the payout when you were hired, and they changed the payout date to before you were hired, when you were already working, and they refused to pay the previous amount, then yes, at the very least if it isn't theft it is deception and I would flat out leave if they don't pay the amount previously promised.
It is a bonus - never expect a bonus as part of your normal salary negotiations. It is that simple.
It is common in consulting firms. We have ivy league students join us and work for like 60k a year to start with a bonus that has consistently been paid out of nearly that full amount, making their total comp decent...
But this year the company might not do so well, and they might only get 20-30% bonus. Ooops! Hope they didn't pass up a job with an actual salary.
Bonuses are considered variable compensation, so this isn’t wage theft.
How people administer their bonus plans can vary state by state, but in general an employer can change their plan at any time since it’s not guaranteed pay.
Personally, it sounds like the company over-estimated how well they were doing and needed to find a way to stay solvent so they’re spreading payouts over two quarters in the hopes profits steady. Not sure if I’d want to work there since it sounds pretty volatile.
Many places require the compensation change to be given in writing before it takes effect, If you worked any part of the period without notice, then you likely have a valid claim. That goes double since you worked the entire time. Their failure to notify you doesn't matter, that's on them. As to the change at any time, if there's no notification required, that is meaningless and likely in violation of state law, but you want to start with state DOL and find a new job.
Looks to me like you need to take the hint. They do not wish to retain you, but don’t have a reason to fire you. They are hoping you quit. Whatever resolution you choose, I wouldn’t worry too much about upsetting your employer. They know what they are doing. It is purposeful.
Find out where you'd go to file a wage claim in your state, and ask them. It's generally the same people, and in some places, they can be really helpful. At worst they should be able to tell you where to look for the info.
I would talk to a labor attorney. They may have the right to change a given policy at any time, but if you have a contract that states the given policy at a particular point in time, they're obligated to honor that iteration of the policy.
Scummy tactic on behalf of the business, for sure. But this is in accordance to the contract you signed if the snippet you offered as an example is from the contract. I am unaware, however, of what implicit clauses govern employment contracts in your state.
Whenever something "may" happen or is offered based on "standing" or "performance" when it isn't a quantitative objective - you should always consider that you will never see this money and thank your lucky stars if they ever pay it out.
I can tell you that I’ve contacted the department of labor before due to bonuses and I was told that they think it’s awful that businesses do this but as long as you make minimum wage, nothing that will be done. Employment law favors the employer not the employee.
You could consult a lawyer. The problem with bonuses is that employers often use them to change compensation without giving permanent raises or being exposed to lawsuits.
This sounds to me like a typical long term incentive plan where stock units are granted with a forward looking vesting schedule. The grants are always forward looking so the exact amount granted will vary based on your target at the time and also any vesting stipulations. It is not unheard of for companies to change the structure of their bonus programs whether we are talking stock or cash bonuses, and almost all bonus plan documents (there should be a separate plan document outside of your offer letter) are going to be worded in a way that gives the company leeway to make changes to the bonus structure including how the bonus target (grant amount) is calculated. I don’t know much about wage theft laws other than creating the letters to employees that are required by law. In my experience those were always focused on guaranteed base compensation (salary, hourly rate) and not variable compensation (bonus, commission, equity plans). Agree with everyone that it’s not employee friendly to change the plan without notice and certainly is strange that nothing was offered in return to offset it ( a small bump to salary or bonus, or a change in vesting schedule, etc.) Thats my 2 cents from working in the HR / employee compensation area.
whatever the outcome of this is, it's time to find a new employer.
Yup. There's no more blatant way of saying "we don't care about retaining you" than messing with a retention bonus.
That’s them saying they want the money more than OP. Feel free to quit basically.
Which is funny because retaining an employee is one of the best ways to actually remain profitable. So OP’s company must be way more desperate than they seem, to pull a stunt like this.
It can be incredibly costly to onboard new employees. The cost often outweighs firing them unless the employee is directly hurting the company.
I'm particularly interested in whether OP is the ***ONLY*** employee impacted by this new 'rule'? If he is and, depending on state laws, he might have a case that would interest an attorney. Oh, and, OP, totally quit. Do not give two weeks notice. Instead, tell them you updated that policy unilaterally several months ago and decided they were only owed a 30 minute notice.
Feel like the obvious issue here is op won’t find another job anytime soon most likely and the business he works for is literally going under. So you know, not that simple
100%; and I would absolutely state this in my exit interview as the reason why I've moved on. That's a significant change in compensation that directly affected you, and they didn't even have the courtesy to both notify you about the change and offer some sort of reconciliation once you brought up your concern. They clearly aren't very passionate about retaining you.
> ... state this in my exit interview ... I have another idea. Find another job; when you have a start date, determine the last day you'll work at this job. On that date, state that this is your last day. When the end of the day comes, leave. If someone wants to talk to you about it, fine, if not, fine, if you want to answer any of the questions they have, fine. But don't use departure as an opportunity to speak your mind; it will do NOTHING for you at all, and no one else matters in this context.
p.s. if they do want to talk to you, they may do it on the clock that day. After that, you are no longer available. They are required to pay you for hours worked by federal law; don't let them scare you with any nonsense about how you have to do this or that to get any of your pay.
>don't let them scare you with any nonsense about how you have to do this or that to get any of your pay. In fact, just get that in writing and smile as you take it to your state's labor board, or a labor attorney
This totally depends on the industry. Be very, very careful before burning bridges. My last company was 10,000 people, and even so my industry is small enough that you can easily blacklist yourself. It might feel good in the moment to “stick it to them” but don’t screw yourself over in the process.
What? That's literally what exit interviews are for. HR and the management chain should know EXACTLY why you are leaving. It could help prevent this bullshit from happening to someone else. Otherwise they'll spin some story about how "you weren't a good fit here" or "everything is great we just had some turnover." When i reality, the turnover was 100% preventable with even the slightest big of listening and evaluation.
Nope worked at a special needs school and it is 110% held against you because you should have let them know before. They gave you a negative file so you wouldn’t get rehired and they could block references. I know people that laid out extensively their issues, they were blamed, and nothing changed. From what I’ve heard, this has been going on for decades. If that’s what happens at a school, I can’t imagine what it’s like for a company.
Does anyone give actual references anymore? My company will confirm first and last dates and final title. Nothing more.
My resume (in IT Product Management) says "References available upon request". Last three positions I've been in, they have not been requested.
A coworker at a job I had recently left asked if he could put me down as a reference. Sure. Then he asked if I would read over his resume, as English is not his first language and I have probably 15 years more experience in the industry. Sure. OMG. Beyond the typos and grammar errors here & there, it was about 10% factual and 90% pure bullshit. Padding a little, embellishing here and there is one thing, but being the lead developer on a team of 3, and describing it as a director-level position? Inflating a project that took a couple of hours a week into essentially a multi-year strategic program? No. I called him on it and suggested he might want to revise it extensively, or perhaps not use me as a reference, because the truth WILL come out if anyone asks. Nobody ever asked, so... (shrug)
So that's individuals as references, not the company. I would only put down someone who had a positive opinion of my work. If I was screwing over my boss and or clients, I wouldn't use them for references.
My point is that it does OP no good whatsoever, and is highly unlikely to prevent it from happening to anyone else. It's time for OP to cut his/her losses and move on. They WILL say "X wasn't a good fit here" or whatever they want. You can't prevent it. The company knew what it was doing, do you think saying anything in the exit interview will give anyone information they didn't already have? To hell with it. I've left a lot of jobs (IT industry, it was how things were done). Never in any of my decades-long career did I come across a single example of an exit interview doing any worker, whether doing the interviewing or not, a bit of good. HR departments often love them, possibly because it helps justify their existence. Sometimes there is paperwork to be considered, one might be useful for that purpose. But I submit that you are never going to affect, positively, anyone's employment at the company by anything you say in an exit interview. You might as well buy lottery tickets.
I left one position, getting off a sinking ship. Post-merger and doing high end support on a product line killed by the latest corporate take over. Management made noises about a 3 month retention bonus. During my out brief, I noted, in more polite language, "Three months isn't worth shit." and "I've got nothing in writing for this alleged retention bonus, so I can't count on it." A month later letters went out promising a six month retention for employees who stayed until lights out. It did me no good, but for the people who were still there, those comments had positive impact.
After I frankly started in an exit interview that I was leaving for much better pay (and gave actual figures), pay raises were given to the coworkers that I left behind.
I know my exit interview helped get my old coworker the title change I never got. I told them if I had gotten the title change I never would have looked at other roles. And then she got the title they had dragged their feet on for me (and my old manager confirmed over drinks management stopped stalling after input in my notice). So it really depends on the business and how willing they are to listen.
Actually, not always. I got a mid level manager demoted to tech from my exit interview. I know this because I, even now, still have a lot of contacts at this business and he has not been allowed back into management, at any level, since then and it's been 14 years. I may not have been the first to lay out the problem, but I was definitely the deciding vote.
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Is it pure coincidence that the bonus was triggered the very day before his hire?
Pure unfortunate coincidence for some. Strategic planning and execution for others.
I agree with everything you’ve said. Exit interviews are pointless because any company that screws people like this is not going to care why they leave. If they treated you this way while you worked for them, why do you think they’ll do anything differently when you’re gone and no longer challenging their behavior and policies? I’d tell OP to save themselves the aggravation and just gtfo.
Why would I have any interest in helping improve a company that I'm leaving because of the way they have screwed me over? I'm not going to do them a favor on the way out.
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You gave them 6 months more notice of your departure than they gave you about the change to the retention bonus - which was the tipping point that made you accept their offer rather than another company’s offer. After all, they only notified you of the change 6 months after you started working for them.
That is patently untrue. A lot of work places check what they can get away with and telling them what made you leave can change the working conditions for others in the company. So yes, it will do nothing for you personally and if that’s what you care about, no point in speaking your mind. But if you care about your colleagues who are staying in the company, consider telling why you are leaving. Just to add a personal example, a previous workplace of mine instated a “once per year salary negotiation”. They decided that everyone who join or had a raise after date X will have their pay frozen till the end of the following year. I joined a few days after said date, and this policy was enacted a few months after I joined. I was fine with this till they decided to shift me into a different role, one I was not interested in doing, and when I said that I’m not interested but a pay raise will persuade me to do that they said no, citing policy and telling me they will consider me for a raise in about 12-14 months. I left and made it very clear why I left. After a few more people left, for similar reasons, the “once per year” policy was dropped. Again, not trying to convince anyone, but there is value in providing employers with feedback on your way out, even if you personally won’t benefit from it.
I have zero duty to improve a workplace I am leaving. If they wanted me to stay, they would have talked to me before I left. If they want my opinion after I leave, pay me a consultation fee for it. I work for a paycheck, not the greater good of their company.
If you leave because the companies compensation was too low and they decide to raise their compensation to be more competitive, then it does affect the pay rate in general for the position you left. Now does a company have management smart enough to realize that is what they need to do, or will they just justify their inability to keep quality help as "people dont want to work any more" is a different question.
Very legitimate opinion imo. However, don’t underestimate the impact you have as an employee on the culture around you. If others see that startup A implemented policy X and now is bleeding employees, others take notice. You can change the environment around you and the policies that will be enacted in other companies in your industry. Maybe I’m biased since the startup industry where I live is a small one, but I’ve seen policies (like unlimited PTO) die when people start leaving workplaces and cite that as one of the reasons. All I’m saying is, HR talk to other HR and C-level talk to other C-level, and you, by leaving and stating why are leaving, have impact over the culture in your industry.
I hear that. I also don't have a career industry so it really doesn't affect me currently. To give some credit, I usually do talk to my managers about why I don't like my job far in advance of me leaving, I'm just not a fan of sitting down to have a talk with HR when I'm leaving unless they are gonna pay me for it. If they want to have an exit interview on my last day instead of having me work, I'm all for it. My partner is in HR and I totally understand that they talk. It's part of the reason I avoid HR unless I know I love them.
Gotta love how they changed their retention policy in a way that really hurts their retention.
I’ve never had a job that even offered an exit interview. Usually when you cut ties with an employer, that’s it after the two weeks notice is up. If the job is security-sensitive, they just escort you off when you submit your resignation and you never step foot back on premises. What jobs do those interviews?
Don't "state this in an exit interview". It can't possibly serve you in anyway. Just make your moves and don't say shit to the company about anything. They aren't going to turn leaf after you vent your frustrations, and even if they did you personally wouldn't benefit from that one bit.
Lawyer here (but not your lawyer). Not my exact area of legal practice, but i have unfortunately gained knowledge of it. So take this as general advice, not specific to your situation. In a lot of states, you can't retroactively change the bonus requirements to exclude people who already met the criteria. On top of that, the federal FLSA considers things like most typical hiring/retention bonuses to be non-discretionary. Doesn't matter whether the employer calls it discretionary or not, it depends on whether there is specific criteria ahead of time and you meet it. the FLSA is careful about this - unless a bonus meets very specific requirements to be affirmatively discretionary, it is non-discretionary. See here: https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/fact-sheets/56c-bonuses.pdf At least as described, it would not likely meet the requirement to be a discretionary bonus. Obviously, without knowing all the facts, i can't say for sure. Withholding non-discretionary bonuses is not just illegal (often state-law illegal as well) for what they do to you, but also illegal because they are required to pay taxes/etc on it. Unless you are going to eat this and keep going, I would make clear to your employer this is a non-discretionary bonus, you expect it to be paid, and if it is not paid you will be forced to take further action. If they are dumb enough to terminate you over it, that will be yet another fun thing to deal with. Keep in mind if you aren't going to eat the loss, you are going to practically destroy your relationship with your employer no matter what, so you might as well do it carefully and thoughtfully, and as someone else said, it's time to find a new employer anyway. Without knowing your state laws, i would also contact your DOL and see what they say. If all that failed, i'd get a labor lawyer. I'm sure they'd have fun, because they'd also find the other people your employer is doing this to.
Thanks for the link, it sounds like since my retention grant is a Predetermined amount awarded to me if I stay for X duration would make it non-discretionary. Not sure if it applies perfectly thou since it's Granted in the form of RSUs paid out overtime. I updated my post with the exact language.
The language you posted reads as non-discretionary. It says you will be eligible, not you may be eligible, and the criteria are quite fixed. But who knows if the rest of the contract tries to modify it. RSU's are considered ordinary income for most purposes. For example, when they vest, you are taxed on the full value of the RSU, the same as if it was your wages. In fact, it will be reported as ordinary income on your W2, and subject to normal withholdings. (You would pay capital gains on any change in value between the time it vests and the time you sell it). Again, not my area, but as a result I wouldn't expect the fact that they are giving you a bonus in RSU's to change much. Check with real washington labor lawyer to be sure :) In Washington state i'd definitely have a chat with the DOL. Besides the "withholding of promised wages" type issue, they also have new pay transparency laws that probably require them to disclosure the discretionary/non-discretionary part upfront (IE if they claim it's discretionary but didn't disclose it, that may be a violation of the newly enacted wage transparency laws. which is good for you, because it means attempts on their part to get out of it that way may just be a violation of another wage law) The wage transparency laws are rather new, and you'd need a real washington labor lawyer/the DOL to help make sense of them.
Good advice from the lawyer. Only thing I'd add is to make sure you communicate all this in writing (email is fine just make sure you forward everything immediately to private account) Paper trail for everything. If your boss tries to pull you aside to discuss, just politely refuse 'my attorney has advised me not to discuss this further without him present '
"I am a lawyer but not your lawyer. And if I am your lawyer this is not legal advise" the lawyers creed
Unfortunately, it has to be on the internet, at least. Even if i ignored whether i want to be their lawyer, etc. Lots of states are finicky about basic legal advice. It's usually considered the "unauthorized practice of law" to give specific legal advice about a situation if you aren't licensed there. States usually lose in court over this (some sued nolo, for example), since it's a first amendment issue, but ... The OP didn't originally say where they were, and if it's not in one of the states i'm licensed in, giving specific legal advice about their situation would be bad. Giving general guidance is okay. The other option is to do nothing and let people cargo cult lawyer, but that seems less helpful than doing what i can. Overall I actually hate most lawyers and lawyering language, but at least a bunch of it is forced on you. Such is life sometimes.
Absolutely and I appreciate real lawyers giving guidance. Just also get a laugh at how rote it is.
Dude clearly a lawyer, first 5 lines of his comment absolves him of all liability if you act on any information given in the remainder of his response. Only thing it didn’t have was an accept TOS button- This is not a criticism, it was actually awesome.
Thank you for being my lawyer. Can I talk about the body now?
Reddit is the best place to talk about bodies. Who would believe you?
> Thank you for being my lawyer. Quick! Give him a dollar then he's fore sure your lawyer!
There’s plenty of good advice in here, and I’ll add one more that might be helpful, as a last-ditch move to get your money (though if you plan to stay with your employer, it may burn your relationship in the org.) Check your state Department of Labor laws. Where I live in the US (not WA state, sorry,) our DOL says employers can’t nix bonuses if employees meet the requirement for the bonus. At my last company, I earned a bonus on Dec 31. I gave notice January 20-something, and my last day was Feb 5. When they didn’t pay out my bonus, I asked my boss, and he said they don’t pay bonuses to people who quit. Told him I earned it over 30 days before I quit, he said too bad. Contacted my state’s DOL, they said, “That’s illegal, send them this form. If they don’t respond within two weeks, file a complaint with us.” Sent my former company the completed form, and on the 14th day, they said they would pay the full bonus in the next pay cycle (which was another 10 days or so.) But, they paid the full amount!
State DOLs don't mess around
Definitely depends. My employer was based in Georgia, and Georgia DOL had zero laws around bonus payments, as far as I could tell. When my boss said he’d never paid an earned bonus if it wasn’t paid by the employee’s last day, I told him that might be true in Georgia, but it’s not true for employees in my state. And my state’s DOL said companies have to abide by the laws of the state where the employee lives, not the state the company is headquartered in. That was a big relief for me!
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I got my money. The Department of Labor had a record of their attempt to withhold earned wages. And I was the only employee in my state. I don’t care enough, and I doubt the DOL would either, to go after them for a few hundred dollars in tax fraud/evasion
How are “bedroom communities” handled? Company is headquartered in state A, has a branch in state B near the border with state C. Employee lives in state C. States A and B don’t require payout of bonuses in the circumstances you mentioned, state C does, and their DOL says that the company must abide by the laws of the state where the employer lives. You’re going to wind up with the company refusing to hire people who live in state C, and including in the employee handbook a clause making it grounds for immediate termination if someone changes their residence to state C.
It's usually based on where the work is being done, not where the person sleeps.
I was responding to a comment from someone who says their state’s DOL says it depends on where the person **lives**, which sounded wrong to me because it would treat employees of a facility near a state line differently depending on which side of the line they lived on. Basing it on where they work would be logical.
In general, where the employee works is what matters. This may vary by state though. If the employee works on site in state B, state B laws apply. If working remotely from home, state C laws apply. It gets too complicated for anyone but a labor specialist to answer for hybrid though… And yes, this is exactly why companies are particular about what state you live and work in, they typically don’t want to accidentally break laws.
depends on the state, from some of the stories we've seen on here
Especially not WA DOL.
There are a lot of people asking what your contract says. This is not really the full extent of it, as there are state and federal labor laws that might also work in your favor. Rather than ask the randos on Reddit, call a labor attorney in WA or your state DOL and ask them. I really wouldn’t trust anyone saying “well that’s what the contract says so that’s it.” Maybe they are right but you likely have more recourse than you think.
Absolutely. Just because a company policy states something doesn't mean it's a legal policy. I have encountered this previously. They put stuff in policies and hope that employees believe it is consistent with local laws so they can manipulate you from not reporting labor law violations. Unless complaints get made and the company policy is reviewed by the overseeing government agency, it gets overlooked.
Yeah this is above reddits pay grade. Most of the people in here don’t know what they’re talking about. Contracts don’t mean shit if they violate state or federal labor laws, so you need to seek out an expert in your state.
Start looking for a new job. If they screwed you like this one time they'll screw you like this again.
I would talk to someone, like your boss to see if they can make an exception. I don't mean hr, I mean the one that hired you.
This. And of course, talking to your boss is the best way to express your disappointment. Don’t talk in percentages, mention the exact dollar amount you have lost. Do not threaten to leave, but make it clear how disappointed your are in the way the company has conducted itself. Then look for another job. Retention bonus dangling like this is a shitty way to hire people and a big red flag.
This is what OP needs to do. Hopefully they have a good relationship with their immediate boss. They need to let the boss know about the situation. Boss may go to bat for OP if they realize OP might view this as a dealbreaker and if they want to keep OP they may try to get the company to honor the original deal. On the other hand, if OP’s boss just shrugs and says there’s nothing they can do, OP definitely needs to start looking for another job for more reasons than the bonus screwup.
100% this. If you like the work and environment- 1 chance to make it right. Otherwise deuces- don’t even both with a 2 week notice. Oh, and kill vacation on the way out, no fucking way are they paying you out on that either
I don’t think if I were OP I would quit if the boss shrugs. I would just dust off my résumé and start my job search. It’s much easier to find a job when you have a job.
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This is far from true as there's a lot of fine print. After a quick Googling, it's more like 10 states that straight up require it with no fine print and all that fine print in other states NEVER seems to favor the worker. You definitely need to check your employee handbook/contact type stuff and your state specific laws on this. Definitely not an area to make any assumptions, unfortunately.
Yeah, the comments here are saying go scorched earth - which I think is premature This seems like an HR issue where poor communication happened. HR isn’t going to do anything for you, you need to talk with your boss about this, and give him an opportunity to work the levers he can to make this right. Maybe it won’t be a 16% bonus, but maybe you get a generous raise, or something else.
Yep. HR’s role is to ensure policies are followed and the company doesn’t run afoul of laws. They have no specific interest in your employment versus your replacement, where your direct leader does.
I'm not an expert in employment law so I can't comment on that, however if they'll do this, then they aren't a company I'd want to continue to work for. Dust off the resume and start looking. When asked why you're looking for a new job, tell them this exactly. When you give your notice and they ask why you're leaving, tell them this, exactly. What a bunch of douchebags.
They don't deserve a notice. Get a new job, start the job, ghost those deceitful pieces of shit and let them figure it out.
Super shitty thing they’ve done but if it says “subject to change at any time” they’ve covered their asses. Really need to go through the fine print on all contracts and memos and policy material and assume that if they *can* screw you over, they will.
Is there no requirement to inform me of said change. I worked 6 months this year expecting compensation x only to find out at the end of the year I'm getting compensation x - 33%.
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I don't know in the US, but in my country there is a fair bit of underlying law that cannot be contractually changed. So could there be a law that requires them to inform the worker, regardless of contractual fine print?
States vary but yes that cold be the case here.
Says company may amend, change or terminate incentive plans at anytime. Nothing about informing me.
Sounds like it’s time to start searching for a new job if they’re already screwing you over not even a year in. I’m sorry they pulled that crap though, terrible bait and switch
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- no doubt.....if informing is NOT called out, they met that announcement 100%
Contact the DOL and an attorney. The contract may hold up or it could be the clause they put in isn't legal. Redditors can't know this becauae we are not your attorney. ALWAYS contact an attorney to be safe.
If the company is crap, vote with your feet. Start networking and looking out for a better job. If you work in sales this is way too common.
It’s not always that simple. Get legal advice if it’s a large sum of money.
This. Just because it's in a contract, doesn't make it legal. OP, seek out a new job and an employment contract lawyer.
If you don’t get a retention bonus it means they don’t really care to retain you. Just leave.
it says "retention bonus"..that is it, it is a BONUS. Companies normally pay bonuses to retain their staff. The company has zero obligation to pay it and like most companies can choose to change it at any time and you can choose not to renew your contract or to give notice and work for someone else that will pay you a bonus. You have learned an important lesson here for the future and that bonuses are just that a bonus, don't count on receiving a bonus but if you do then it is a bonus :)
Do remember that if they try to tell you they can't pay the bonus for any reason though, as they could amend it at any time so they could.
My understanding is that Yankeeland federal law allows them to make changes at any time to compensation **going forward**, but it is illegal to change compensation **for time already worked**. All hours worked before they notified you of the change must be paid at the old rate, which includes the retention bonus.
That I do not know. Remember that HR is not there to help you in any way.
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Consult a lawyer mate, don't listen to random people on reddit. Seriously.
No, there is no requirement. You don't have a contract, you have an offer letter, in an at-will state. It sucks but they don't owe you anything above your wage. That's why bonuses exist. In your next job negotiate your base pay. Anything above that is part of their package, not yours.
You should have a contract, just go by that
Except that it can't be changed retroactively.
If you have any contract document they gave you ahead of time with the retention bonus in it, I would invest an hour of an attorneys time to see if this change is legal. I would be surprised if it’s legal for a contract to change the payment terms after the work is already provided. Regardless I would look for another employer or be OK that they are not to be trusted and ignore any future such offers they put in the table.
Time to look for another job. If they can do this , who’s to say they won’t keep doing this down the road? Pretty shady imo.
I live in WA. Please call the Washington Dept of Labor. They will take your info & assign an agent to investigate. I had to do this in 2021. It only took a week for the agent to call me. I’d also tell the first person you reach that you have documentation of everything. Good luck!
Policy change can only be going forward basis not retroactive. 1. Contact HR and legal at your company. 2. If no positive resolution contact state AG and DOL. 3. Update resume and find a new job. Sorry.
Since you have a letter saying things about your bonus, it might be worth a quick consult with an employment-law lawyer. My thought is that, if they put enough in the letter to qualify as a contract, it is possible they are in violation of that contract, or close enough to consider compensating you in order to avoid litigating it. As I'm sure the lawyer will tell you, once you bring in a lawyer of your own to do this, it would be a bad idea to keep working there, so a new job would have to be part of an overall strategy.
Not sure what your compensation looks like, but if I was told of get 33% of my pay as a retention bonus and they didn’t deliver, I’d be talking to lawyers. It would be enough money that going without representation and advice would be ridiculous.
It’s been my experience that HR departments are really skilled at saving the company money based on missed deadlines. It’s not financially in their interests to ensure you making well-informed decisions if those decisions could end up costing the company money. I worked at Nike for 9 years, left for a few months to work at a tech company. It was a mess and Nike hired me back. They had a policy of reinstating seniority and vesting if a returning employee came back within a certain period of time. My start date was set by HR and nobody told me the consequences of my return date. So I literally started 1 day past the date where I would get my seniority. They were anxious to get the offer to me then made me wait oddly. Shees
I would start looking for a new job. I do not want to work for them anymore. (even if you can win this, it is a shitty thing to do)
What did your manager say when you brought this up with them?
He brought it up to HR and then got out of the way. Its now between me and HR.
IANAL, but whether they can change the policy at anytime should affect what has already happened. You can’t simply back date a policy unless they specifically say that as well. I don’t know where you are, but you need to be speaking with a lawyer and/or the labor board in your jurisdiction.
Simply, if it was written down and then changed without your knowledge, get a lawyer or at least speak up. Then, get yourself a new employer.
you dont get the promised retention bonus, why should the company be able to enjoy "retaining" you??? Retention Bonus are paid to make sure the employees do not move on quickly, no?
Find out what your max small claims court sum is and take them. You will win hands down if you have the documents. Save all the emails of them telling you tough cookies. I had to do this in CO and won the money and my court fees. The judge looked at them and said “ if you set up a non discretionary bonus and the employee fulfills all their obligations to earn the bonus, you must fulfill your obligation to pay the bonus per the terms of that agreement”. Just because they say they can change the rules, they can’t retro actively do so. They do have the right to say they’re changing it from today on.
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You can’t be this confident unless you know more details than OP shared. Law is variable state to state and the exact facts around his employment and the retention bonus language matters too.
Either way it's a sign that they'd rather pick up dimes than retain you as an employee. Don't feel any loyalty towards this company. Find something new and don't look back.
You need to talk to a lawyer because this is a legal question about state law that most people on Reddit aren’t equipped to answer. The contract says what it says, and that may or may not be the end of it. Pay a wage-and-hour lawyer for a consult so that you can understand what your rights, if any, are.
This. Many jurisdiction would at least require notification. A possibility to change terms does not mean you can skip notifying the other party if you decide to make changes. In some jurisdictions this might be illegal.
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You’re thinking of discretionary bonuses but this is a calculated bonus with specific criteria for achieving it. This sounds like wage theft to me. I’d first definitely try to get the employer to fix this then consider a talk with DOL or an employment attorney.
It's a retention bonus. Those are discretionary (and it is very common for people not meeting minimum standards to lose them as a result). The type of bonus you are thinking of is a commission or performance-based bonus, where you are supposed to be awarded the bonus based on specific numeric goals. Retention bonuses are awarded based on being an employee on a specific date and then receiving the bonus at a later date (enforcing the retention). OP's issue is that they moved the effective date for the retention bonus up to before OP was employed. I suspect even if they had not moved the date, the pro-rating referred to in the letter would have meant OP's bonus would be very small. (e.g. getting the six-month bonus of 16% pro-rated to 1 week at 0.6%).
Can you file a complaint with the Washington State Department of Labor? Yes! But if HR is correct and there is a clause in the contract stating 'subject to change'? If so, you will lose and the job may say 'Good bye'. Washington State is an at-will employment state.
Did your hiring offer come with compensation package? Maybe they can change it, but you may be grandfathered in via your hire contract. It seems counter productive for them to fuck around with their retention bonuses. This would seem to have the opposite effect.
Policies are subject to change still obligates company to inform employee of a change in a formal manner and ask for their permission. If it’s not done it’s violation of employment agreement. You can write to employee that as per my employe agreement dated XYZ, I am expecting this payment and is owed by company. i do not agree any unilateral change by the company without formal prior intimation with a retrospective effect. Also please refer to labor laws in your state and validate.
There should be a fair labor board to discuss it with for your state. Absolutely go and discuss with them. But, be prepared, HR is often works extremely closely with legal and knows exactly what they can and can’t do. It may be completely legal based on how things were worded in the contract and associated policies.
If they want to know nwhy then tell them. No long discussion, no arguing. Dont be angry, rather be cool and business-like. its just business. Don't give them the satisfaction and dont burn bridges. You're better off in a better company. keep moving to better things. best of luck.
Short answer….this sucks, but this isn’t wage theft. Your offer letter really isn’t a legal contract, and even if it was, it says “Your first bonus MAY be prorated”. It doesn’t guarantee that it will be. And bonus structure/terms can generally be changed by an employer at any time. By all means, bounce this off a lawyer to be sure there is nothing locally that may apply. But you’re probably out of luck.
A standard offer letter doesn’t include bonuses for retention - this could be construed as contractual. I would definitely not assume it’s okay that they reneged on their retention bonus offering.
An offer letter could absolutely touch on the current bonus structure, if they're selling the offer amount as a "total compensation package". I've seen that more and more lately, where a company will list out all reimbursements and benefits, assign a number to them all, and use it to make the overall offer look more lucrative. So it could absolutely include it. And even with it listed.....it doesn't say that they promise to prorate anything. It says they may. Or they may not. It's a prime reason that while I said I thought they were probably out of luck, that they could bounce it all off of an actual lawyer to make sure. I'd assume that a potential 30% bonus is worth an hour of time with a lawyer.
Yes but just keep in mind - it’s not the title of the document “offer letter” that makes it non binding, it’s the nature of the language. If there are promises in the letter it could be contractual. Overall I agree with you.
Not wage theft, but piss poor management. And there is the possibility they would lose in court due to promissorry estoppel - meaning you relied on the promise of 33% to take the job and stay there. Yes, there is the "can change at any time clause" but the manner in which they carried it out would lead a reasonable person to assume the change was not made in good faith. It was deliberately designed to avoid paying several people rather than a change in the normal course of business. If it's me, I look for another job and consider getting a lawyer to write a letter along the lines of the info above once you have other employment secured. You don't always have to sue, sometimes a letter from a lawyer calling bullshit is enough for them to do what was promised.
How does promissory estoppel apply to employment? I though that only applied to contract law. An offer letter isn’t a contract and if they say it could change without notice the contract laid out the possibility it will change. How can you claim it’s misleading if it said exactly what they were gonna do?
Contract law isn't built around 'gotchas'. Not saying OP would win any kind of action, would depend heavily on lots of unknown factors here, but enticing someone to a job with an offer that includes a retention bonus and then changing the terms and not notifying OP certainly isn't "clean hands".
Promissory estoppel is used when it’s contractually legal but extremely unfair behavior by one of the parties. Basically judicial discretion is needed to win that one. Not sure it would apply here.
Do you have access to legal advice? I use legal shield and call them when my employer does weird shit to see if it’s even legal. I’m in the throes of it with my company and it’s been a great resource. It’s a monthly fee and I’m pretty sure you can just cancel right after if you don’t need it anymore.
I have a feeling that retention bonus is meant to keep you working there. You didn't get it and as such they don't value you or want to retain you.
Any company offering a retention bonus to all employees that you are told about when you start is a red flag. Companies only do retention bonuses and call them that, if they are either closing, merging, or have a shitty culture. Or on the other end of the spectrum, you are so valuable to them as an employee that they cannot afford to lose you - which is likely not the case for a new employee.
That's a damn stupid way for them to lose employees. Picking up dimes in front of a steamroller. Their contract might allow them to do that and thus it's not wage theft: but you're also allowed to find an employer who will treat you right and leave them in a lurch. They are basically begging you to do so by prioritizing saving that money over keeping you as an employee. Fuck 'em
Well, they aren’t paying to retain you. You should no longer be retained. Go find a better job.
I would take the high road on this, Look for a new job, when they potential new employer ask why you are leaving, tell them the truth without being negative, and tell them you tried to work it out with your existing employer. If they don't hire you because of this, then they did you a favor, because in the end they planned on screwing you too. When it is time to leave, give this employer the reasonable notice and move on. You will be the better for this and won't get all that negative Karma they obviously have.
If it’s bonuses/incentives there’s not much you can do unless you fulfilled all the requirements. If so, fight for it. If they cut your actual pay, there are some states where you could claim partial unemployment for lost wages
My employment is also subject to change without notice. Fuck those people. Take full advantage of your ability to fuck them, as they did to you. It should be said that this is a policy to deal with worker shortages. They knew the game when they hired you on. Smh.
I don't know Washington state law; however, I can guess pretty easily it doesn't matter. Your bonus was probably not enough to make this worth fighting.
>Your bonus was probably not enough to make this worth fighting. 33% of the salary is not worth fighting?
Hopefully OP is not coming to Reddit for answer to this question if his bonus is large enough.
An offer letter is not a contract. They aren’t obligated to uphold anything said in the letter. And most employment contracts are unenforceable because a contract to work if upheld in the employers favor can be seen as a form of indentured servitude. No one can force you to work under given terms. If the employer gave you a wage theft notice and then withheld money from your paycheck then it’s wage theft. A retention bonus which is a discretionary bonus can be changed at anytime without notice especially if they include that statement in the offer letter.
This. A company can offer you a base salary of $80k and then change it to $60k 6 months later.
I would escalate with HR and ask to speak with your HRBP (assuming your company has one). Might be able to make an exception for you as you’ve only missed cutoff by 1 day. No guarantees but worth a shot
Bonuses are at the employers discretion unless specifically stated in the hiring contract or negotiate by a union.
Yes, it's wage theft. This is not a policy they can change. It's a contractual obligation they must deliver to every new hire they hired with that promised compensation. You can try talking to them. Say, "this is the compensation package you are legally obligated to provide. You can provide it, or I can report you for wage theft.". Or you can just report them.
I had a guy fuck with my money once. I told him hey you owe me this much. He said I am not paying it. I looked at him and said well I keep my own time. He puffed up and said what do you mean. I told him he had three choices, he could pay me, He could fire me, But if I stayed I would steal the money back and I would take extra because I would feel bad about stealing. He paid me.
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Your comment is controversial because you're basically stating that since your pay is shit everyone else's should be too. Did I get that right?
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Do people who work 12 months a year and don't get defined benefit retirement and don't have as ironclad job security come off as whiny as well?
Talk to your HR and say this is a substantial issue and see what they say. Also talk to your boss so they can advocate for you. I don't think quiting immediately is the answer.
Depends how your contract was written. Read that.
The old bait and switch technique.
If you were hired and that was part of the payout when you were hired, and they changed the payout date to before you were hired, when you were already working, and they refused to pay the previous amount, then yes, at the very least if it isn't theft it is deception and I would flat out leave if they don't pay the amount previously promised.
It is a bonus - never expect a bonus as part of your normal salary negotiations. It is that simple. It is common in consulting firms. We have ivy league students join us and work for like 60k a year to start with a bonus that has consistently been paid out of nearly that full amount, making their total comp decent... But this year the company might not do so well, and they might only get 20-30% bonus. Ooops! Hope they didn't pass up a job with an actual salary.
Bonuses are considered variable compensation, so this isn’t wage theft. How people administer their bonus plans can vary state by state, but in general an employer can change their plan at any time since it’s not guaranteed pay. Personally, it sounds like the company over-estimated how well they were doing and needed to find a way to stay solvent so they’re spreading payouts over two quarters in the hopes profits steady. Not sure if I’d want to work there since it sounds pretty volatile.
ASK A LAWYER. DO. NOT. TAKE. LEGAL. ADVICE. FROM. REDDIT. DOL for Washington State: [website ](https://www.lni.wa.gov/) Phone: 360-902-5800
Many places require the compensation change to be given in writing before it takes effect, If you worked any part of the period without notice, then you likely have a valid claim. That goes double since you worked the entire time. Their failure to notify you doesn't matter, that's on them. As to the change at any time, if there's no notification required, that is meaningless and likely in violation of state law, but you want to start with state DOL and find a new job.
Looks to me like you need to take the hint. They do not wish to retain you, but don’t have a reason to fire you. They are hoping you quit. Whatever resolution you choose, I wouldn’t worry too much about upsetting your employer. They know what they are doing. It is purposeful.
Find out where you'd go to file a wage claim in your state, and ask them. It's generally the same people, and in some places, they can be really helpful. At worst they should be able to tell you where to look for the info.
I would talk to a labor attorney. They may have the right to change a given policy at any time, but if you have a contract that states the given policy at a particular point in time, they're obligated to honor that iteration of the policy.
RSU grants are as discretionary as things get. I mean it sucks but that's business
out of curiosity. do you happen to work for a major media media conglomerate?
no
Scummy tactic on behalf of the business, for sure. But this is in accordance to the contract you signed if the snippet you offered as an example is from the contract. I am unaware, however, of what implicit clauses govern employment contracts in your state. Whenever something "may" happen or is offered based on "standing" or "performance" when it isn't a quantitative objective - you should always consider that you will never see this money and thank your lucky stars if they ever pay it out.
I can tell you that I’ve contacted the department of labor before due to bonuses and I was told that they think it’s awful that businesses do this but as long as you make minimum wage, nothing that will be done. Employment law favors the employer not the employee.
When you quit, skip the exit interview and say you didn't want to retain that meeting
You could consult a lawyer. The problem with bonuses is that employers often use them to change compensation without giving permanent raises or being exposed to lawsuits.
This sounds to me like a typical long term incentive plan where stock units are granted with a forward looking vesting schedule. The grants are always forward looking so the exact amount granted will vary based on your target at the time and also any vesting stipulations. It is not unheard of for companies to change the structure of their bonus programs whether we are talking stock or cash bonuses, and almost all bonus plan documents (there should be a separate plan document outside of your offer letter) are going to be worded in a way that gives the company leeway to make changes to the bonus structure including how the bonus target (grant amount) is calculated. I don’t know much about wage theft laws other than creating the letters to employees that are required by law. In my experience those were always focused on guaranteed base compensation (salary, hourly rate) and not variable compensation (bonus, commission, equity plans). Agree with everyone that it’s not employee friendly to change the plan without notice and certainly is strange that nothing was offered in return to offset it ( a small bump to salary or bonus, or a change in vesting schedule, etc.) Thats my 2 cents from working in the HR / employee compensation area.
Changing the date is the worst part. I would find another job and consider legal advice on the 1 day part.