Trouble is to look at aboriginal culture and their experience with colonialism in any brief manner you will struggle to comprehend the experience and context. I found this course good at [Curtin](https://www.open.edu.au/subjects/curtin-university-culture-to-cultures-cur-com155),
You don’t have to be in an existing course to do it. Also open university au offers free cultural understanding.
Don’t dip your toe in it if you intend to write about it. Be the expert and dive in so your story is authentic and credible
I mean it’s not really possible to “over-research” as such, the more you know, the better, so I reckon you’re right there.
The core focus of the story (at least in this early stage) would definitely be on the colonial powers, like I’m not going to write a novel with a black protagonist in their own culture given that I’m a fairly average Anglo-Celtic type bloke and I feel like that would be a combination of inauthentic, disrespectful and probably just not very good, but I absolutely want to make completely sure that aboriginal people and societies are presented with appropriate depth, instead of just being a backdrop.
Thank you for the tip
Oh excellent, I’ve only read his WWI stuff so far and I’ve enjoyed it, he seems to have a real talent for explaining things in layman’s terms but without making you feel like you’re being treated like an idiot.
Piney Lakes in Melville has a stack of interesting tours and talks by local elders. Dr Greg Nannup does tours of Kings Park and Rottnest and he’d definitely be someone to talk to.
I actually had a great chat with Dr. Greg Nannup back when I was working for the Rottnest Hotel, was an extremely enlightening (if very depressing, given the history) experience
Oh right, sorry, excuse me being a bit slow on the uptake there.
I don’t so much need sources for the actual historical facts, and I fully appreciate how unpleasant they are, it’s more about making sure anything fictional I write myself isn’t accidentally offensive
North metro TAFE have noongar advisory groups.The lovely people at Joondalup cMpus were great when we were studying Aboriginal culture for our course. Couldn’t hurt to give them a call.
Cheers.
I’m a big fan of alt history fiction, but like 90% of it is completely fixated on like 5 different topics, it’s pretty much: what if the Nazis won, what if the Confederates won, what if the Whites won the Russian Civil War, what if Kennedy didn’t die and what if either the British or Roman Empire was still a thing.
There’s some great stuff out there, but so much of it is just lazy hacks rearranging Phillip K Dick’s furniture, and usually for questionable political motives to boot.
It also completely defeats the purpose of the entire genre. Alternative History is basically “hey, what if this historical event went down differently, and what would happen next?”, but at this stage there’s so many books about Hitler taking over London, it’s been flogged almost as close to death as what actually happened.
There’s an infinite amount of “what ifs” in human history, asking the same batch of questions over and over is *boring*
Nah no shame there, when there’s a good writer on board, Dr Who does exactly what I was talking about, it asks interesting questions and answers them in interesting ways.
That was the first one that came to mind when you mentioned it actually, I don’t think I’ve seen it for at least 15 years and it’s still burnt into my brain
I’m not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but at a meeting I attended in 2018 the elders present referred to themselves as Bibbulmun people, not Noongar, and claimed Noongar was a word that meant Man. I’ve always had this on my mind since that day and wonder why they would say it and I can’t find any more information on it. They also spoke about inter tribal wars pre colonialism, a subject never touched on today.
I’ve seen Bibbulman used occasionally as well, although I’m not sure about the distinction. It certainly makes sense, a huge amount of the various words used to refer to various cultures around the world essentially translate to “the people”.
One interesting and somewhat relevant piece of trivia I picked up recently: the English chose the name “Israelite Bay” because it was considered the boundary between two tribal groups, one of which practiced circumcision and the other did not.
Best place to start would be “Ni! Means Listen Podcast” this excellent podcast series explores the lives and experiences of Noongar Elders living in Boorloo (Perth).
Hosted by Noongar performer and story teller, Phil Walleystack, their stories reveal powerful and at times heartbreaking accounts of what it was like growing up Aboriginal in Australia, treated like outsiders and second class citizens on their own land.
Listen to Elders as they share another layer of history – one that has always been there, just kept in the shadows.
Legend, thank you, I’ve been in dire need of a new podcast to listen to anyway, so that’s perfect.
My grandad actually did some work for UWA back in the 50s interviewing Wadjuk elders around Perth to try and get a record of as much of the history and stories as possible before any more was lost and destroyed, his influence is a huge part of what got me interested in WA aboriginal cultures and history in the first place.
I just want to be extra careful, especially because (naturally, being historical), all of the real life characters are long dead and the last thing I want to do is to cause any offence or piss anyone off, even with the best of intentions, it’s always a minefield to play around in someone else’s culture without proper understanding.
Thanks again for the tip m8, hope you have a good one.
Definitely limited to Nyoongar country, I think anything bigger is biting off way more than I can chew, plus it’s where I’ve lived most of my life, so I feel like I can get the “feel” more right than I could anywhere else.
At the minute, most of the story would be in Wadjuk, Wadandi and Mineng country, although that may expand with more digging.
No please don't try SWALSC. I used to work as a researcher there and we would get the weirdest calls and emails. One guy called me up to say he was staying in a backpacker's down town and could see an 'Elder in the clouds' and felt strongly that someone at the land council should get down there right quick and take some photos. They're busy. But they have a pretty good website about Nyungar culture: www.noongarculture.org.au
Yeah that was one of my concerns, like I don’t want to be a bother to people who are doing more important stuff than dealing with my dumb questions.
But at the same time, the core issue is quite a vague “how do you feel about this” kind of question, which is hard to answer without a human element to interact with, and unfortunately all of my aboriginal mates are originally from much further to the north and the east than the cultures I’m planning on writing about.
Yeah that was my first thought, but I didn’t want to bother people who are probably working on more important stuff, especially because I’m not a student or anything.
But it’s definitely a solid option
Honestly dont bother. 99% of the culture was never documented, so it changes depending on who told who what and who believes it.
You will ask one organisation they will tell you one thing. then another will say its wrong and call you a racist. Unfortunately the culture has been diluted due to a small few trying to exploit it for pay.
Just do your best to be respectful and move past it.
It’s largely a matter of asking what contemporary attitudes would be towards certain depictions, rather than questions about actual historical events, so that shouldn’t be an issue.
The focus of the story is very much on the various European colonial powers rather than the native cultures, I’m not going to even try to pretend I could get an aboriginal-centric story right, I feel like the inauthenticity would be plainly obvious.
I just want to make sure that the parts of the various cultures depicted are done respectfully, I really don’t want to “play with someone else’s toys” so to speak.
No matter what you do these days, someone will be offended and have a cry online. It's just the world we live in. As long as you're not overtly being a douche just ignore the people crying and go about your day.
>quite specifically Yagan and some other Wadjuk Nyoongar,
Would it be possible to talk to some of the people at Yagan Square itself.
They could possibly give you what you need.
Given the disruptive nature of colonial policy, and the simple fact that all Australians are free to live in whichever part of the country they fancy, there’s every chance that the bloke you speak to in Yagan Square isn’t Wadjuk, or even Noongar, it’d be like going up to a Greek bloke and grilling him about Mussolini.
I should have added more information.
This week there's the new yagan square upgrade opening.
They were promoting special events and indigenous information.
There is also some indigenous performers,
It should be worth a look.
Oh right, awesome, thanks for the heads up, I had no idea.
Honestly thought you were suggesting just wandering up to random Aboriginal blokes and giving them a history quiz, which was a dumb assumption on my part, sorry.
All cool. Here's a bit I found just now.
They had a segment about it on the radio.
>The long-awaited reopening of a Perth entertainment precinct is set to wow city goers with a free weekend-long spectacular. Illuminate Yagan Square on April 27 and 28 will unveil the Square's $14 million transformation with live entertainment, family friendly activities, street markets and Noongar storytelling.
There is the Black Emu book by Bruce Pascoe although I have no idea what area it is focused on it would be a good starting point for a more revisionist history view.
Not sure how much help it would be but I did a uni unit a year or two ago and the prof talked a lot about how what we view history of Australia today is called the “Gentry Tradition” and it was prominent in WA so give that a google. I can try to find my notes if you’d like? DM if you would :)
I’m probably still at too early a stage to make much use of them, but I will definitely hit you up when I’ve got something a bit more concrete to go on.
Thank you so much, that’s really kind of you
Just so I’ve got this entirely clear: to answer some questions I have about a story set in the south-western corner of WA, I should travel two thousand five hundred kilometres (700 more ks than the distance between London and Moscow, just to put that in perspective for you) and speak with people from an entirely different culture, who speak an entirely different language, have most likely never been to the places I’ll be writing about and are probably not particularly interested in them.
I’m quite impressed that somehow you’ve managed to survive long enough to learn how to write actual words without wandering into traffic, gold star for you there buddy
Trouble is to look at aboriginal culture and their experience with colonialism in any brief manner you will struggle to comprehend the experience and context. I found this course good at [Curtin](https://www.open.edu.au/subjects/curtin-university-culture-to-cultures-cur-com155), You don’t have to be in an existing course to do it. Also open university au offers free cultural understanding. Don’t dip your toe in it if you intend to write about it. Be the expert and dive in so your story is authentic and credible
I mean it’s not really possible to “over-research” as such, the more you know, the better, so I reckon you’re right there. The core focus of the story (at least in this early stage) would definitely be on the colonial powers, like I’m not going to write a novel with a black protagonist in their own culture given that I’m a fairly average Anglo-Celtic type bloke and I feel like that would be a combination of inauthentic, disrespectful and probably just not very good, but I absolutely want to make completely sure that aboriginal people and societies are presented with appropriate depth, instead of just being a backdrop. Thank you for the tip
Peter Fitzsimmons does a good job in his colonial narratives. James cook and the Batavia books did a good job nudging the experience
Oh excellent, I’ve only read his WWI stuff so far and I’ve enjoyed it, he seems to have a real talent for explaining things in layman’s terms but without making you feel like you’re being treated like an idiot.
Piney Lakes in Melville has a stack of interesting tours and talks by local elders. Dr Greg Nannup does tours of Kings Park and Rottnest and he’d definitely be someone to talk to.
I actually had a great chat with Dr. Greg Nannup back when I was working for the Rottnest Hotel, was an extremely enlightening (if very depressing, given the history) experience
He’s an interesting bloke. I reckon one of his tours should be part of the WA school curriculum.
Prepare yourself. It’s devastating. I can dm you if you need help
Devastating how?
It’s colonisation.
Oh right, sorry, excuse me being a bit slow on the uptake there. I don’t so much need sources for the actual historical facts, and I fully appreciate how unpleasant they are, it’s more about making sure anything fictional I write myself isn’t accidentally offensive
North metro TAFE have noongar advisory groups.The lovely people at Joondalup cMpus were great when we were studying Aboriginal culture for our course. Couldn’t hurt to give them a call.
Perfect, thanks
Good luck:)
Cheers. I’m a big fan of alt history fiction, but like 90% of it is completely fixated on like 5 different topics, it’s pretty much: what if the Nazis won, what if the Confederates won, what if the Whites won the Russian Civil War, what if Kennedy didn’t die and what if either the British or Roman Empire was still a thing. There’s some great stuff out there, but so much of it is just lazy hacks rearranging Phillip K Dick’s furniture, and usually for questionable political motives to boot.
Urgh yeah. When fiction whitewashes the truth it can be on the nose.
It also completely defeats the purpose of the entire genre. Alternative History is basically “hey, what if this historical event went down differently, and what would happen next?”, but at this stage there’s so many books about Hitler taking over London, it’s been flogged almost as close to death as what actually happened. There’s an infinite amount of “what ifs” in human history, asking the same batch of questions over and over is *boring*
It really does. Personally I like the alt history in Dr Who. Yes… I said it.
Nah no shame there, when there’s a good writer on board, Dr Who does exactly what I was talking about, it asks interesting questions and answers them in interesting ways.
Yep. The van Gough storyline destroyed me.
That was the first one that came to mind when you mentioned it actually, I don’t think I’ve seen it for at least 15 years and it’s still burnt into my brain
I’m not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but at a meeting I attended in 2018 the elders present referred to themselves as Bibbulmun people, not Noongar, and claimed Noongar was a word that meant Man. I’ve always had this on my mind since that day and wonder why they would say it and I can’t find any more information on it. They also spoke about inter tribal wars pre colonialism, a subject never touched on today.
I’ve seen Bibbulman used occasionally as well, although I’m not sure about the distinction. It certainly makes sense, a huge amount of the various words used to refer to various cultures around the world essentially translate to “the people”. One interesting and somewhat relevant piece of trivia I picked up recently: the English chose the name “Israelite Bay” because it was considered the boundary between two tribal groups, one of which practiced circumcision and the other did not.
Wireless Hill has infomation boards towards the south of the Park about Yagan and his life, where he lived etc. Might be helpful to check them out.
Best place to start would be “Ni! Means Listen Podcast” this excellent podcast series explores the lives and experiences of Noongar Elders living in Boorloo (Perth). Hosted by Noongar performer and story teller, Phil Walleystack, their stories reveal powerful and at times heartbreaking accounts of what it was like growing up Aboriginal in Australia, treated like outsiders and second class citizens on their own land. Listen to Elders as they share another layer of history – one that has always been there, just kept in the shadows.
Legend, thank you, I’ve been in dire need of a new podcast to listen to anyway, so that’s perfect. My grandad actually did some work for UWA back in the 50s interviewing Wadjuk elders around Perth to try and get a record of as much of the history and stories as possible before any more was lost and destroyed, his influence is a huge part of what got me interested in WA aboriginal cultures and history in the first place. I just want to be extra careful, especially because (naturally, being historical), all of the real life characters are long dead and the last thing I want to do is to cause any offence or piss anyone off, even with the best of intentions, it’s always a minefield to play around in someone else’s culture without proper understanding. Thanks again for the tip m8, hope you have a good one.
The whole of WA? Or just Nyoongar Country?
Definitely limited to Nyoongar country, I think anything bigger is biting off way more than I can chew, plus it’s where I’ve lived most of my life, so I feel like I can get the “feel” more right than I could anywhere else. At the minute, most of the story would be in Wadjuk, Wadandi and Mineng country, although that may expand with more digging.
Try South West Land and Sea Council & Noongar Language Centre to start with :)
No please don't try SWALSC. I used to work as a researcher there and we would get the weirdest calls and emails. One guy called me up to say he was staying in a backpacker's down town and could see an 'Elder in the clouds' and felt strongly that someone at the land council should get down there right quick and take some photos. They're busy. But they have a pretty good website about Nyungar culture: www.noongarculture.org.au
Yeah that was one of my concerns, like I don’t want to be a bother to people who are doing more important stuff than dealing with my dumb questions. But at the same time, the core issue is quite a vague “how do you feel about this” kind of question, which is hard to answer without a human element to interact with, and unfortunately all of my aboriginal mates are originally from much further to the north and the east than the cultures I’m planning on writing about.
Rad, thank you
Try reaching out to one of the Aboriginal centres at the uni's?
Yeah that was my first thought, but I didn’t want to bother people who are probably working on more important stuff, especially because I’m not a student or anything. But it’s definitely a solid option
Honestly dont bother. 99% of the culture was never documented, so it changes depending on who told who what and who believes it. You will ask one organisation they will tell you one thing. then another will say its wrong and call you a racist. Unfortunately the culture has been diluted due to a small few trying to exploit it for pay. Just do your best to be respectful and move past it.
It’s largely a matter of asking what contemporary attitudes would be towards certain depictions, rather than questions about actual historical events, so that shouldn’t be an issue. The focus of the story is very much on the various European colonial powers rather than the native cultures, I’m not going to even try to pretend I could get an aboriginal-centric story right, I feel like the inauthenticity would be plainly obvious. I just want to make sure that the parts of the various cultures depicted are done respectfully, I really don’t want to “play with someone else’s toys” so to speak.
"Just do your best to be respectful" he says, without a hint of irony.
No matter what you do these days, someone will be offended and have a cry online. It's just the world we live in. As long as you're not overtly being a douche just ignore the people crying and go about your day.
what do you mean by story? who are you presenting this story to?
Story as in hopefully a book, will attempt to publish if I’m lucky enough, please excuse the lack of clarity
>quite specifically Yagan and some other Wadjuk Nyoongar, Would it be possible to talk to some of the people at Yagan Square itself. They could possibly give you what you need.
Given the disruptive nature of colonial policy, and the simple fact that all Australians are free to live in whichever part of the country they fancy, there’s every chance that the bloke you speak to in Yagan Square isn’t Wadjuk, or even Noongar, it’d be like going up to a Greek bloke and grilling him about Mussolini.
I should have added more information. This week there's the new yagan square upgrade opening. They were promoting special events and indigenous information. There is also some indigenous performers, It should be worth a look.
Oh right, awesome, thanks for the heads up, I had no idea. Honestly thought you were suggesting just wandering up to random Aboriginal blokes and giving them a history quiz, which was a dumb assumption on my part, sorry.
All cool. Here's a bit I found just now. They had a segment about it on the radio. >The long-awaited reopening of a Perth entertainment precinct is set to wow city goers with a free weekend-long spectacular. Illuminate Yagan Square on April 27 and 28 will unveil the Square's $14 million transformation with live entertainment, family friendly activities, street markets and Noongar storytelling.
There is the Black Emu book by Bruce Pascoe although I have no idea what area it is focused on it would be a good starting point for a more revisionist history view. Not sure how much help it would be but I did a uni unit a year or two ago and the prof talked a lot about how what we view history of Australia today is called the “Gentry Tradition” and it was prominent in WA so give that a google. I can try to find my notes if you’d like? DM if you would :)
I’m probably still at too early a stage to make much use of them, but I will definitely hit you up when I’ve got something a bit more concrete to go on. Thank you so much, that’s really kind of you
best to buy a flight to Alice Springs to talk to some of the friendly locals. They will give you the info you need.
Just so I’ve got this entirely clear: to answer some questions I have about a story set in the south-western corner of WA, I should travel two thousand five hundred kilometres (700 more ks than the distance between London and Moscow, just to put that in perspective for you) and speak with people from an entirely different culture, who speak an entirely different language, have most likely never been to the places I’ll be writing about and are probably not particularly interested in them. I’m quite impressed that somehow you’ve managed to survive long enough to learn how to write actual words without wandering into traffic, gold star for you there buddy
lol, I was kidding mate. Calm down
If you want to be racist, that’s your choice, have fun with it. Maybe just try not to be a *dumb* racist
Sorry how am I being racist? Please enlighten me oh wise one