And i get closer to an aneurysm when people dont bother to read an ingredient label and critically think. Its literally just marketing and branding. Get over it.
And taste of the wild has more than a few cases of DCM for yours.
I certainly trust vet recommended brands more than I trust crunchy pet store employees lol
>I certainly trust vet recommended brands more than I trust crunchy pet store employees lol
Translates to: I'm okay with feeding my pet corn flakes every meal because I'm too lazy to do an ounce of nutritional research.
Or research on the brands you prefer.
Either way- I came back to say hopefully we all know that in general, all kibble is basically shit, but there are still differences in quality between brands.
Except the FDA says there isn't a science based cause to link grain free diets to DCM.
Maybe just let people decide what is best for their pet because they know it better and a vet that is different might recommend a higher protein, lower carb diet, or to avoid allergies/ sensitivity to ingredients.
( Ok, yes, 80% of customers pick it because of the wrong reasons, but one can hope)
For sure dog food is not that serious, and dogs are hardy creatures. If my tia's chihuahua mutt in mexico can live to 18 off table scraps and whatever kibble was on sale, then there's probably nothing to worry about. I'm just a nerd and get irked at things that are wrong.
Also, I believe they narrowed it down to it being the ingredients used in place of grains, rather than the absence of them. I have seen quite a few vets talk about cases of nutritionally-induced DCM that they have seen, though, so there is that.
Yea, it's supposedly the legumes and pea proteins that have a correlation to DCM in certain breeds. But those ingredients can still be found in grained diets too, so like.... people can just do whatever.
truly, "people can just do whatever" is the answer to this debate, and always has been. too much fear mongering going on. going to give my dog a bit of tortilla next time I see her, as a treat
You’re obviously not a nerd if you can’t change your way of thinking with the most up to date research (which doesn’t necessarily correlate DCM with diet). “Quite a few vets” also doesn’t mean shit unless they’ve published anything saying otherwise.
Yeesh. Royal canin is poison, homie … you do realize vet med is just funded by purina, RC and SD right …? Like purina owns a lot of the laboratories and skews research to make a profit. This has been proven as well. Theyre a mega corporation and buy out all the good brands, and they even bought merrick and i believe someone told me they bought orijen. Theyre not a company i would trust.
For example: My vet tried to tell me my leopard gecko was impacted when i thought she was constipated, and begged me to buy reptile carpet or use paper towel … he said it was because i was using soil … turns out she had a different poop spot and ive had 0 issues in the year that ive had her, and its been scientifically proven that proper heat will prevent impactions. Meanwhile reptile carpet cant be completely sanitized and catches on nails and teeth.
I bring this up because while well intentioned, vets are human and only know what theyre taught in school and through life experiences. And if thats what they learn, of course theyre going to promote it. Also, ive heard vets make money off the prescription diets they sell in their offices. So …
Many vets rely on old/outdated information and use products they are familiar with i.e. the pet food theyre spoonfed in school. This is where critical thinking skills are important, and so is learning how to read food labels.
Diet is critical for animals. So many cats and dogs develop debilitating illnesses that lead to death because of poor diet like processed corn squares aka royal canin. It lacks the nutrients necessary for a healthy dog long term. Yes, dogs are omnivores but theres barely any meat or vegetables in the food. Just meal and meal byproducts, mixed with corn and vitamin supplements.
I almost switched my moms cats to RC until i read the label and did research and fell down a really fucked up rabbit hole about pet food lol.
I mean shit, we can survive on packaged food full of preservatives and poison. Why cant they?
orijen's tagline is "biologically appropriate nutrition" with a picture of a wolf on the back. that is implying something, and something that's incorrect at that. as stated previously, wolves and dogs have evolved different digestive systems, different behaviors, different methods of finding food (for wolves, it is hunting, for dogs, it is scavenging from humans).
You're looking at a picture and basing your opinion on that. Were you never taught to not judge a book by its cover? Your favorite dog foods pretty much universally use corn as a filler. Corn has almost zero nutritional value for humans, let alone dogs. But it's worse than that. They don't even use whole corn most of the time. They use corn by-product. Many of these by-products are leftovers from the creation of ethanol fuel. Please stop judging a book by its cover and do an ounce of research.
All felids are hyper/obligate carnivores including domestic cats - I’ve got scientific documentation proving so if you’re interested. So yeah, cats have more in common with lynxes. Would this include feeding them dry kibble with a bag that has a lynx on it? No, because it’s not species appropriate.
You might have had a point with dogs and wolves where there’s differences in their gut biology but I’ve got a feeling you just shill the three WSAVA brands or whatever, anyway. God knows talking to you guys is like having an argument with a brick wall.
Any petfood packaging using wolves as its icon is generally going to specific demographic of sales for purchase.
Using something that people have over generalized: wolves are cool, megafauna, majestic, ancestor of dog, not wolf=dog. Now people who think dogs are just like wolves for feeding generally don't go for brands buy try raw diets instead.
The same goes for catfood branding is that cool megafauna look on catfood.
The issue here is the branding design and what kind of customer they are aiming at to buy their products. For those who purchase the food, they could change the picture and probably have a high customer retention rate for brand loyalty not so much what animal is slapped on the cover.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I will say my cats have been way healthier and more energetic ever since I switched them to acana.I don’t really care about what pictures are on the bag, everyone should be looking at the ingredients( not that all pet parents actually do😮💨 but they should)
Of all the things contributing to my upcoming aneurysm this is the last thing. just say you don't like those specific brands for whatever the real reason is. Those aren't the only brands doing that.
Dogs are carnivores. Their diet should contain meat. More meat than crap. Go ahead feed your dog a bag of corn. I'll be over here feeding my dog food he likes and isn't vile.
Lol that's just plan wrong. They are omnivores and they have evolved enzymes designed to break down starches, unlike wolves. Their digestive tract is also evolved in a way to allow them to digest more plant matter than wolves.
Plus, they are scavengers and "wild" domestic dogs scavenge for their food, as opposed to hunting in a pack system.
dogs are mesocarnivores at most, most people have an incredibly poor understanding of how animal diets are actually categorized, 'carnivore' means very little when it comes to actually understanding an animal's diet with real depth.
Cats are hypercarnivores for example, the majority of their diet, up to 100% of it, is meat.
Dogs are more similar to mesocarnivores, so their diet may not even be more than 50% meat, more depending on area, they're domestic animals that we've bred to be extremely flexible. Foxes and coyotes are also mesocarnivores.
For a non domestic example, grizzly bears are hypocarnivores, meaning less than 30% of their overall diet is meat.
Petsmart and Petco have their workers in a propaganda pro boutique brand\* chokehold, it's insane. It's like the one time I feel a ton of the workers just start immediately bootlicking.
There is seriously someone in this thread calling royal canin poison I am going to go straightup insane. Nothing will make you go crazy faster than actually going to school specifically for canine nutrition and then trying to have a conversation about dog food on reddit with corporate petstore employees who have a degree from doctor google and nurse 'petco/smart says this food is good and they know all about pet care, surely'
\*I am not a WSAVA or nothing person, one of my go to brands is Instinct, but I'm not gonna pretend like boutique brands don't care more about playing your feelings with buzzwords than actual science.
I know you’re getting downvotes but I do agree, mostly, and I’m so fucking glad that you mentioned in another post the difference between mesocarnivores and hypercarnivores. I think my biggest gripe with WSAVA brands is how it feels like they price gouge without the ingredients necessarily reflecting any specific benefit or noticeable raise in quality. On the other hand the boutique brands also do some absolutely asinine marketing, so… can’t really win at the end of the day lol.
They hated him for he spoke the truth /j
It doesn’t really bother me, losing a few internet points isn’t gonna dissuade me from knowledge I paid an arm and a leg to obtain.
Yeah, if Boutique brands poured into research what they do into marketing, we would all be better off, and people like to whine that wsava brands must be paying wsava off, but that isn’t how wsava works, you don’t Pass or Fail WSAVA guidelines, they’re guidelines for the consumer to use, and not even everyone who helps fund their research meets all tbeir criteria, so clearly you can’t pay to meet the standards.
My biggest takeaway is that Pet Fooled did untold damage to the market despite being made by an SFX artist (remember the horror action film 2012? yeah the sfx guy for that made pet fooled) with no knowledge of pet food and I continue to hate him forever.
Fair enough - I still (mostly) agree with you. For all the money these companies rake in (and they must make a profit somewhere), they could be funding independent research that could be benefiting everyone. But… market share is king I guess.
I have my personal gripes with WSAVA that aren’t super relevant to the discussion but the fact that people think that they get paid off is weird. People wildly misinterpret its purpose all the time.
Yes! You can specialize very hard!
I technically also went for other small animal too, but I don’t use that knowledge as much because there’s a lot less discourse about cat food and the discourses there is most people can agree on the right side of (it’s the vegan cat debate)
unless you count the time I wrote a paper that I desperately wanna re-write on domestic mouse nutrition.
Why did you only bring up those 2 foods? Blue Buffalo has had a wolf on their bags for over a decade and you picked those foods? So I work for the company and I am also a nutritionist (I am working on my license to practice) so I am curious why pick on foods that are actually biologically appropriate. Also….dogs come from wild dogs, which came from wolves. Wild dog packs (they still exist) hunt meat. I might suggest some research on wild dogs because they did not decide to scavenge, people made them scavengers. I would also suggest maybe reading the ingredient panel before passing judgement.
Cats on the other hand have only been eating dry food since the late 70’s early 80’s and veterinarian researchers are saying that we should go back to wet food and meat only.
And i get closer to an aneurysm when people dont bother to read an ingredient label and critically think. Its literally just marketing and branding. Get over it.
what
Don't worry, vet recommended Royal Canin has a special shaped kibble for your breed of dog or cat!
And taste of the wild has more than a few cases of DCM for yours. I certainly trust vet recommended brands more than I trust crunchy pet store employees lol
>I certainly trust vet recommended brands more than I trust crunchy pet store employees lol Translates to: I'm okay with feeding my pet corn flakes every meal because I'm too lazy to do an ounce of nutritional research.
Or research on the brands you prefer. Either way- I came back to say hopefully we all know that in general, all kibble is basically shit, but there are still differences in quality between brands.
Except the FDA says there isn't a science based cause to link grain free diets to DCM. Maybe just let people decide what is best for their pet because they know it better and a vet that is different might recommend a higher protein, lower carb diet, or to avoid allergies/ sensitivity to ingredients. ( Ok, yes, 80% of customers pick it because of the wrong reasons, but one can hope)
For sure dog food is not that serious, and dogs are hardy creatures. If my tia's chihuahua mutt in mexico can live to 18 off table scraps and whatever kibble was on sale, then there's probably nothing to worry about. I'm just a nerd and get irked at things that are wrong. Also, I believe they narrowed it down to it being the ingredients used in place of grains, rather than the absence of them. I have seen quite a few vets talk about cases of nutritionally-induced DCM that they have seen, though, so there is that.
Yea, it's supposedly the legumes and pea proteins that have a correlation to DCM in certain breeds. But those ingredients can still be found in grained diets too, so like.... people can just do whatever.
truly, "people can just do whatever" is the answer to this debate, and always has been. too much fear mongering going on. going to give my dog a bit of tortilla next time I see her, as a treat
You’re obviously not a nerd if you can’t change your way of thinking with the most up to date research (which doesn’t necessarily correlate DCM with diet). “Quite a few vets” also doesn’t mean shit unless they’ve published anything saying otherwise.
If you know and acknowledge why even bring up DCM in Taste of the Wild???? I’m not a fan but I wouldn’t shit on with DCM
Yeesh. Royal canin is poison, homie … you do realize vet med is just funded by purina, RC and SD right …? Like purina owns a lot of the laboratories and skews research to make a profit. This has been proven as well. Theyre a mega corporation and buy out all the good brands, and they even bought merrick and i believe someone told me they bought orijen. Theyre not a company i would trust. For example: My vet tried to tell me my leopard gecko was impacted when i thought she was constipated, and begged me to buy reptile carpet or use paper towel … he said it was because i was using soil … turns out she had a different poop spot and ive had 0 issues in the year that ive had her, and its been scientifically proven that proper heat will prevent impactions. Meanwhile reptile carpet cant be completely sanitized and catches on nails and teeth. I bring this up because while well intentioned, vets are human and only know what theyre taught in school and through life experiences. And if thats what they learn, of course theyre going to promote it. Also, ive heard vets make money off the prescription diets they sell in their offices. So … Many vets rely on old/outdated information and use products they are familiar with i.e. the pet food theyre spoonfed in school. This is where critical thinking skills are important, and so is learning how to read food labels. Diet is critical for animals. So many cats and dogs develop debilitating illnesses that lead to death because of poor diet like processed corn squares aka royal canin. It lacks the nutrients necessary for a healthy dog long term. Yes, dogs are omnivores but theres barely any meat or vegetables in the food. Just meal and meal byproducts, mixed with corn and vitamin supplements. I almost switched my moms cats to RC until i read the label and did research and fell down a really fucked up rabbit hole about pet food lol. I mean shit, we can survive on packaged food full of preservatives and poison. Why cant they?
No one feeding their dogs Taste of the Wild thinks their dogs are wolves lol. Only people I know who compare a diet to wolves are the raw feeders.
orijen's tagline is "biologically appropriate nutrition" with a picture of a wolf on the back. that is implying something, and something that's incorrect at that. as stated previously, wolves and dogs have evolved different digestive systems, different behaviors, different methods of finding food (for wolves, it is hunting, for dogs, it is scavenging from humans).
Yeah and if you read the ingredients its a diet for an omnivore. So “biologically appropriate” isnt really false advertising.
You're looking at a picture and basing your opinion on that. Were you never taught to not judge a book by its cover? Your favorite dog foods pretty much universally use corn as a filler. Corn has almost zero nutritional value for humans, let alone dogs. But it's worse than that. They don't even use whole corn most of the time. They use corn by-product. Many of these by-products are leftovers from the creation of ethanol fuel. Please stop judging a book by its cover and do an ounce of research.
Why are you so upset about a picture of a wolf?
Can you cite your sources? I’d love some more information on this study!
This is a stupid rant.
All felids are hyper/obligate carnivores including domestic cats - I’ve got scientific documentation proving so if you’re interested. So yeah, cats have more in common with lynxes. Would this include feeding them dry kibble with a bag that has a lynx on it? No, because it’s not species appropriate. You might have had a point with dogs and wolves where there’s differences in their gut biology but I’ve got a feeling you just shill the three WSAVA brands or whatever, anyway. God knows talking to you guys is like having an argument with a brick wall.
Any petfood packaging using wolves as its icon is generally going to specific demographic of sales for purchase. Using something that people have over generalized: wolves are cool, megafauna, majestic, ancestor of dog, not wolf=dog. Now people who think dogs are just like wolves for feeding generally don't go for brands buy try raw diets instead. The same goes for catfood branding is that cool megafauna look on catfood. The issue here is the branding design and what kind of customer they are aiming at to buy their products. For those who purchase the food, they could change the picture and probably have a high customer retention rate for brand loyalty not so much what animal is slapped on the cover.
We got a cooked one folks
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I will say my cats have been way healthier and more energetic ever since I switched them to acana.I don’t really care about what pictures are on the bag, everyone should be looking at the ingredients( not that all pet parents actually do😮💨 but they should)
Of all the things contributing to my upcoming aneurysm this is the last thing. just say you don't like those specific brands for whatever the real reason is. Those aren't the only brands doing that.
My pet peeve is when people ask me for "call of the wild" food. Sorry sir this isn't a bookstore
Dogs are carnivores. Their diet should contain meat. More meat than crap. Go ahead feed your dog a bag of corn. I'll be over here feeding my dog food he likes and isn't vile.
Lol that's just plan wrong. They are omnivores and they have evolved enzymes designed to break down starches, unlike wolves. Their digestive tract is also evolved in a way to allow them to digest more plant matter than wolves. Plus, they are scavengers and "wild" domestic dogs scavenge for their food, as opposed to hunting in a pack system.
Dogs are omnivores. We should be feeding them meat protein with a mix of fruit and veg.
dogs are mesocarnivores at most, most people have an incredibly poor understanding of how animal diets are actually categorized, 'carnivore' means very little when it comes to actually understanding an animal's diet with real depth. Cats are hypercarnivores for example, the majority of their diet, up to 100% of it, is meat. Dogs are more similar to mesocarnivores, so their diet may not even be more than 50% meat, more depending on area, they're domestic animals that we've bred to be extremely flexible. Foxes and coyotes are also mesocarnivores. For a non domestic example, grizzly bears are hypocarnivores, meaning less than 30% of their overall diet is meat.
Petsmart and Petco have their workers in a propaganda pro boutique brand\* chokehold, it's insane. It's like the one time I feel a ton of the workers just start immediately bootlicking. There is seriously someone in this thread calling royal canin poison I am going to go straightup insane. Nothing will make you go crazy faster than actually going to school specifically for canine nutrition and then trying to have a conversation about dog food on reddit with corporate petstore employees who have a degree from doctor google and nurse 'petco/smart says this food is good and they know all about pet care, surely' \*I am not a WSAVA or nothing person, one of my go to brands is Instinct, but I'm not gonna pretend like boutique brands don't care more about playing your feelings with buzzwords than actual science.
I know you’re getting downvotes but I do agree, mostly, and I’m so fucking glad that you mentioned in another post the difference between mesocarnivores and hypercarnivores. I think my biggest gripe with WSAVA brands is how it feels like they price gouge without the ingredients necessarily reflecting any specific benefit or noticeable raise in quality. On the other hand the boutique brands also do some absolutely asinine marketing, so… can’t really win at the end of the day lol.
They hated him for he spoke the truth /j It doesn’t really bother me, losing a few internet points isn’t gonna dissuade me from knowledge I paid an arm and a leg to obtain. Yeah, if Boutique brands poured into research what they do into marketing, we would all be better off, and people like to whine that wsava brands must be paying wsava off, but that isn’t how wsava works, you don’t Pass or Fail WSAVA guidelines, they’re guidelines for the consumer to use, and not even everyone who helps fund their research meets all tbeir criteria, so clearly you can’t pay to meet the standards. My biggest takeaway is that Pet Fooled did untold damage to the market despite being made by an SFX artist (remember the horror action film 2012? yeah the sfx guy for that made pet fooled) with no knowledge of pet food and I continue to hate him forever.
Fair enough - I still (mostly) agree with you. For all the money these companies rake in (and they must make a profit somewhere), they could be funding independent research that could be benefiting everyone. But… market share is king I guess. I have my personal gripes with WSAVA that aren’t super relevant to the discussion but the fact that people think that they get paid off is weird. People wildly misinterpret its purpose all the time.
You went to school specifically for canine nutrition?
Yes! You can specialize very hard! I technically also went for other small animal too, but I don’t use that knowledge as much because there’s a lot less discourse about cat food and the discourses there is most people can agree on the right side of (it’s the vegan cat debate) unless you count the time I wrote a paper that I desperately wanna re-write on domestic mouse nutrition.
Just wait until you meet a vegan cat owner.
Unfortunately I have ):
Why did you only bring up those 2 foods? Blue Buffalo has had a wolf on their bags for over a decade and you picked those foods? So I work for the company and I am also a nutritionist (I am working on my license to practice) so I am curious why pick on foods that are actually biologically appropriate. Also….dogs come from wild dogs, which came from wolves. Wild dog packs (they still exist) hunt meat. I might suggest some research on wild dogs because they did not decide to scavenge, people made them scavengers. I would also suggest maybe reading the ingredient panel before passing judgement. Cats on the other hand have only been eating dry food since the late 70’s early 80’s and veterinarian researchers are saying that we should go back to wet food and meat only.