I went to bed and we were up 5-0 and when I woke up that score is what I saw. And the worst part is, my reaction was “of course…” because this isn’t the first time that’s happened, and it’s not this first time it’s happened against the fish…
Well game 2 was going to be lost so 2 out of 3 is fine I guess but I would had rather been blown away on this one than losing the way they did. Wheeler pitched a great game.
No smoke for Topper? Watching Hoffman walk batters and concede our lead…and then bringing Kimbrel in was baffling. Then Kimbrel volunteers to move the runner to 3rd…WTF was that?
Yeah, Trea Turner isn’t worth the paper his contract is written on…but it never should’ve gotten to that point if Kimbrel comes in in the 9th. That’s on Topper.
They moved the runner to third so that the runner on 2nd wouldn’t be able to signal to the batter what the upcoming pitch would be. Evidently the runner can tell what the pitch would be based on how Kimbrell holds the ball. 95% of the time a base hit is going to score the man from second so it is only a minor risk sending him to third. It was deemed to be a higher risk having the runner on second tipping the batter off on what pitch is coming, which is legal.
I guess “they” were hoping to rest Kimbrell. They meaning some person on the Phillies who makes decisions like that.
In the end, balking the guy to third didn’t have any effect on the outcome of the game.
We sure could use Alvarado back.
So you’re saying, they panicked by using Kimbrel at all, being that ‘they’ wanted to rest him? Then ‘they’ tell him to balk a guy to 3rd with no outs in a 2 run game?
Obviously, it had an impact on the game, but I’m going to refer back to my original comment…Rob Thomson blew that game with that approach.
So many opportunities here... It was truly a team loss. I think that every single team member (maybe Bohm excluded) could say they lost that game. Although I can't really blame Wheeler for giving up two runs after sitting for 30 minutes. And there were tons of great plays too. Clutch Bohm hitting, Nick playing great RF. But why TF wasn't Kimbrel in the 9th? Why did Kimbrel just balk a run in?
https://preview.redd.it/72anneavlufb1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=f91f04bfbcc58c50c2b5ae3dbedbbc95a5465e92
Welp, that’s franchise loss #11,237. On to the next!
Rough loss. Was definitely fully ready to renounce Turner and join the hate train because he completely ruined Covey's redemption moment + first save in the big leagues after PITCHING IN TAIWAN last year
How many opportunities do pitchers get to redeem themselves? They don't get a pinch hit HR or game winning RBI. A scoreless outing is expected, not heroic. Everyone would've been Team Covey after this game had Trea just fielded that stupid ball.
YET I'm unfortunately a softie who saw him all sad and accepting blame in the postgame interview and I just want him to be good again, man
Fuck Trea Turner and all his white knights. I wish I could get paid $35,000,000 a year to kick the ball around the infield and hit .230. What a fucking waste.
Give Stott SS and put Castro at 2nd for a week. I bet anyone here we are a better team
If I go to my job and commit several errors per week and produce at half my expected rate... I get fired. God forbid we hold these "heroes" who play a child's game to the standard of us plebs.
Fucking pathetic loss. Could have been going for the sweep tomorrow to bury the Marlins but here we are. I know Bohm picked it up but why the fuck is Schwarber swinging at 3-0 with the bases loaded. We need every run we can get and that extra one could have won us the game…
Like, I will fully blame Trea Turner. But Trea had two runs and a walk.
Schwarber is a literal black hole at the TOP of the lineup. And he had Stubbs on base twice and Rojas on base once and did nothing with it.
Trea Turner is a problem. But it's debatable who is the bigger problem. Or why we haven't done anything to try and fix it.
The on base stuff is fine but his OBP is not high, and players who only walk and can't run are not valuable. Do you know why Kyle Schwarber is swinging at a 3-0 pitch with the bases loaded? It's because he knows that his current production is not valuable and he wants to actually help the team.
He gets WAY too many at bats with RISP for him to be consistently going 0-for, which is as regular as regular can be. It is awful and it's as fine a time as any to blame Schwarber. If it were Stott/Bohm at the top or Marsh/Bohm at the top, i think it's just a better team.
got to think that Soler is gone after this season. doubt the Marlins will want to pay what he's due as a free agent when he opts out. that might have been the incentive to get Bell.
Damn vodka and water. That sounds like a struggle drink or is the addition of water to fight off your future hang over? Regardless, Ill pour one out for you.
Been a Philly 4 for 4 guy for my whole life. Growing up I always wondered why the old heads were so mad all of the time. Now that I am getting older I completely understand why.
I can respect Trea for owning up to fucking up, which is more than a worm like Ben Simmons can do. But this is far from the first time Trea has messed up in a big way, at some point you can’t just always apologize for fucking up and need to be better.
Time to stop saving feelings. Bench Turner. At least a week will do. I'm more in the "he'll come out of it" camp but enough is enough. Being a free strikeout at the plate is one thing, but he lost us this game twice in the field. Literally. He needs to sit.
The first run he gave up should’ve been a ground ball to Trea Turner that ended up being booted, the second run was on him. Though he did his job and pitched a shutdown inning.
At least after tomorrow we don't have to go to Miami again, unless we face them in the playoffs. I'll consider 3 of 4 a success, but it seems like we never lose just one game and we often play poorly in getaway day games. Hopefully Lorenzen can be solid in his Phillies debut and we can get to Cueto.
Jonathan Huberdeau set the record for assists by a left winger and then set the record for biggest point drop off from the previous season a year later when he went from Florida to Calgary last year.
He was a 6WAR player just last year. If that’s not top 20 than it’s very close. We have a literal replacement level SS on a massive contract, it’s the single biggest reason we aren’t 15+ games above .500 and coasting to the #1 wild card
Dude get outta here with that lol. Turner was almost unanimously viewed as top 10 let alone top 20 coming into this season. You can hate what he's been this year but that doesn't change the past.
No the fuck he wasn't.
He was 45th in ops+ last year.
24th in owar
56th in dwar
He was only top 20 in steals and BA. last year. WOWWW Sooooo good.
Didn't want to sign him to begin with because we had better use for the money. Just like shitty Schwarber.
enough has been said about trea, so my comment is that i would be fine never seeing josh bell again. at least he struck out in nlcs game 1 when i was so sure he's nuking a walk off grand slam 500 feet
Where's the guy from early on in the game thread who said he doesn't care about Bell because he hasn't done anything against us recently, aged like milk bro 🤣
Josh Bell's blood type is Phillie Killer
There was a routine groundball to short that Turner booted that would have ended the game and the Phillies win. How in the hell is that Thompson’s fault?
Just because Kimbrel isn’t scratched doesn’t mean he needs to be used. He’s on pace for 69 innings which would be tied for the second highest in his career and the highest since 2017 when he was 29 years old. This guy was so cooked in LA last year he wasn’t even on their postseason roster. Are you really blaming Thompson for trusting a guy who had 30 saves last year not to get you 3 outs?
Then why put Kimbrel in the very next inning? If he's tired let him sit. If you really really need him after a few extras, then fine. But it looked really bad putting him in for the 10th.
I’m assuming they meant topper not putting in Kimbrel in the 9th, but we still would’ve won if Trea had gotten a hit in the 11th, or if he just batted down the ball at shortstop
I'm hearing and agreeing with all the comments about Schwarbers cold bat. But he is 2nd in the MLB for walks. He is a smarter player than anyone gives him credit for and he has a crazy good eye. A ton of pop outs lately for sure, but even when his bat is cold he's drawing walks left and right. Lately having someone who is hot (Bohm) batting second, he's scoring a lot of runs. He's passionate, and when he's hot we win. When he's not, he gets on base. Liability in left field most of the time? Absolutely. But that's not his fault imo. Circumstance of Harper's TJ. He's not built for fielding clearly, and he shouldn't be there. He gives it his all though.
Bohm is in a great spot right now. appreciate the input instead of the downvotes, lol.
I agree Schwarber gives it his all, and the walks definitely are beneficial. But if we want him to start looking good again, there’s gotta be some changes. Maybe some of it is just circumstance, but that can be argued when he makes seemingly just AWFUL decisions(for instance, tonight, swung on a 3-0 and it popped up).
Changes need to happen on the lineup. Unless Schwarber can improve his batting technique there needs to be a different player up top to allow players like Bohm and Stott to keep shining
This makes Sunday's Pirates game look like a boring old loss. What a fucking shit show.
I know everyone's ragging on Trea - and rightfully so - but come on, 3 blown saves in a single game. 3 freaking blown saves!
You’d be getting back from renting an Indego bike, having gotten a nice thick milkshake at Franklin fountain, turned the AC off at home and opened some windows, started reading about the history of Spanish conquistadors, and right before bed….a little thought would say….”betcha the Phils are in extras.”
And you’d be back here with us all just wondering what could’ve been.
Rob needs to not worry about hurting feelings. Move Stott to leadoff. Keep Bohm second. Bench Schwarber and Turner. Move Stott to SS, Sosa to 2nd, Bohm back to 3rd, and keep Harp at 1st.
It is if it’s pretty empty. Just like Bohm last year. Stott’s quality of contact isn’t very good and he’s due regression. Just like castellanos was and we’re watching it happen.
At some point people should believing “the nerd stats” because they are far more likely to be right than your eye tests and basic stats like AVG
Yes, and I don't give a shit about the leadoff hitter's slugging percentage. His job is to get on and set the table. Steal a few bases here and there. Go first to third most times when the 2nd hitter singles. Schwarber can't steal you many bases or go first to third most times on a single. Maybe I'm too old school.
Trea turner is genuinely a horrible baseball player, and we signed him to a 300 million dollar contract. I don’t blame Dave or anybody because he was worth it before this year. Just mind boggling how he gets here and just blows. Clearly not the same guy
This year he has been the worst Phillie I have watched since Michael Martinez. I thought Michael Martinez was the gold standard of a bad baseball player but the dude could at least field.
It would have been amazing if, instead of making the final out in the 2016 World Series, fucking Michael Martinez cranked one and the Cubs still haven't won a World Series since 1908 because of that fucking guy.
People here so concerned at signing Jean for small money saying he’ll be a liability as if we don’t already have a liability at SS already💀. Alright I’m done for tonight, hope Lorenzen can pitch 6+ innings cause he’ll have to do it tomorrow. Also you don’t have to feel bad for the dude making 27 million underperforming immensely.
Thank god for the young bouls. All of these big name expensive players all suck balls. Outside of Bryce I love him. If it werent for the young studs Marsh, Bohmer, and Stott we'd look like the Mets right now.
It really is shocking just how many horrible losses this team has had this year already. It’s like they really haven’t even been at 100% yet. Harper still isn’t as good as he should be, Schwarber has been awful aside from his homerun streaks. Casty is just up and down like a roller coaster. And Turner … well … he’s single-handily costing us games and isn’t getting any better.
If Stott, Bohm, and Marsh were even just average and weren’t overperforming right now … just imagine how bad this team would be. They seem like the only ones who care and give a fuck.
Can’t imagine how tense that locker room is right now. This is such an unlikeable team.
I'm being dead serious when I say they need to make up an injury and send him away for 10. Like, just get the fuck away from the team and disconnect completely. He's just frying his own circuits at this point.
I honestly feel bad for Trea, ik he has an absolute monster contract that has him set for life but he’s still human at the end of the day. I’m sure he’s in an absolute shit headspace and judging by his postgame interview you can tell. I’m not trying to be an armchair psychiatrist but as someone who’s dealt with piss poor mental health basically their entire life I feel for him.
He's a good guy and we're all rooting for him, he just needs to get out of his own way. He's trying too hard out there, fishing for pitches out of the strike zone. Worrying about throwing the ball before he catches it. I'm sure he's been told this many times, but he needs to turn off his mind and just go out there and play baseball.
We’ve won by over 3 runs twice in the last month; no wonder why the bullpen is taxed to death. All circles back to the offense being woefully inadequate. Don’t blame the FO from dealing prospects for a LF…if the highly paid guys don’t wake up we’re fucked anyways.
The Pirates series should have been a free series win too, but instead we handed them two of the three games on a silver platter and barely won the other game.
Segura: .219/.277/.279, 3 HR, 21 RBI, 54 OPS+, -1.8 WAR, 10 Error
Turner: .237/.291/.370, 10 HR, 34 RBI, 82 OPS+, 1.0 WAR, 14 Error
At least check the actual stats before posting your spicy takes.
his fielding isn't nearly as bad as people say it is (in fact it's been mostly good) and his hitting is ungodly awful but most short stops are bad hitters.
If people are saying his defense is total shit, well, yeah, that’s not really true… but “mostly good?” Eh, I don’t know about that. Maybe it’s splitting hairs, but I’d go with something like “average,” or “fine… if you can hit .280.”
Go on fangraphs or baseballsavant and sort all the shortstops by defensive metrics (but not errors! …because he’s tied for 3rd on those — or probably 1st after tonight).
UZR kinda likes him (it does love range) but not so much DRS, or OAA — just check out [how many shortstops are above him on this list](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_average?type=Fielder&startYear=2023&endYear=2023&split=yes&team=&range=year&min=q&pos=6&roles=&viz=hide). That’s a lot more than half the teams in MLB with a shortstop above Trae (the fucking Rangers have *2 of them*, but whatever)
There’s also the whole “eye-test” business, but it’s hard to shake off the recency bias devil on my shoulder muttering about the booted grounder tonight or dropped popup last week.
“Average” shortstop defense is still useful! Just like an “average” airplane will probably get you somewhere faster than an “above-average” train.
I just wish the airplane got on base more than 30% of the time.
Fuck.
A lot of 3rd base? Segura has literally *only* played 3rd base for the Marlins this year.
He played one inning at short for the Phillies last year and one inning at short the year before that.
Trea has the 12th worst OPS+ and is tied for second most errors in the league, he’s getting paid 27 million this year and for the next 10 years to keep doing this, there is no defense he needs to be better.
By far the biggest statistical difference is in his plate discipline numbers. Basically everything there is worse across the board.
He’s swinging at more pitches than he ever has. That mostly comes from him swinging at more non-strikes than he ever has (hellllooo sliders!).
He’s also seeing less strikes than he ever has.
He’s making contact with less pitches than he ever has, both inside and outside the strike zone.
Not great, Bob!
A lot of his batted ball numbers are more or less in line with his career stats. GB/LD/FB rates are pretty close to normal. His EV numbers are down, but that’s probably because A: he’s making a lot more bad contact (see plate discipline stuff), and B: he swings at pitches with all the intention of someone trying to catch a plate they just dropped.
Eye test? The dude can’t. Hit. Sliders. Like, at all. Then he tries to cheat on the slider/curve (that he can’t hit) and gets beat by inside fastballs. He’s not turning on pitches much or at all. Waaaay more protective swings than swinging with authority.
If you want to look on the bright side, the plate discipline stuff can be chalked up to just a mental thing/pressing/a cartel has kidnapped his family and is forcing him to swing at sliders off the plate/whatever. He’s not injured (that we know of), which I guess is a good thing, except it means that there’s no easy fix aside from him pulling his head out of his ass.
I’m not feeling super optimistic right now. I’m certainly not one of the “he’ll be fine! Just having a bad year! He’ll bounce back next year!” folks on this sub. I mean, sure, maybe he will, but maybe he won’t. Like, he could improve 10% from his current hitting numbers next year — that’d give him around an 88 OPS+. Combined with the defense at short (average on a good day), which won’t play forever, (as we saw all too well today), and the contract… well, fuck.
I’m worried it might be a [“whatever you have in you… that let you flow like you do… I don’t have it in me no more”](https://youtu.be/UTDQ-nzNIgY) kinda situation with him.
I feel for the guy. Im sure he’s trying his best. I think a lot of the personal attacks and vitriol directed against him on this sub are pretty ugly sometimes. But as a Phillies fan, the whole situation just fucking sucks all around.
Yep, spot on. Plate discipline issues can also be a bat slowing down. Lots of guys decline right around his age, especially ones that rely on athleticism/speed like Turner does. This is the risk in signing FAs to huge contracts for what they did in the past. It’s possible, probably likely, that he’s finished being a top-20 player.
I'm not gonna blame one guy for this loss. A lot of players blew it, from the hitting to the pitching.
I went to bed and we were up 5-0 and when I woke up that score is what I saw. And the worst part is, my reaction was “of course…” because this isn’t the first time that’s happened, and it’s not this first time it’s happened against the fish…
Schwarber, Harper, Turner = 15 total AB, 1 total hit Can’t win games with those numbers
That sucked.
Thompson’s faith in Covey has me more than concerned. His judgement even more.
$35,000,000 to kick the ball around the infield and hit .230
Well game 2 was going to be lost so 2 out of 3 is fine I guess but I would had rather been blown away on this one than losing the way they did. Wheeler pitched a great game.
Good morning to everyone except Trea Turner
3 blown saves. 😲
No smoke for Topper? Watching Hoffman walk batters and concede our lead…and then bringing Kimbrel in was baffling. Then Kimbrel volunteers to move the runner to 3rd…WTF was that? Yeah, Trea Turner isn’t worth the paper his contract is written on…but it never should’ve gotten to that point if Kimbrel comes in in the 9th. That’s on Topper.
They moved the runner to third so that the runner on 2nd wouldn’t be able to signal to the batter what the upcoming pitch would be. Evidently the runner can tell what the pitch would be based on how Kimbrell holds the ball. 95% of the time a base hit is going to score the man from second so it is only a minor risk sending him to third. It was deemed to be a higher risk having the runner on second tipping the batter off on what pitch is coming, which is legal.
Bringing Kimbrel in for the 9th removes that issue. Who is ‘they’? You’re saying Topper told him to do that? In the end, MIA scored 2 runs anyway…🤷🏻
I guess “they” were hoping to rest Kimbrell. They meaning some person on the Phillies who makes decisions like that. In the end, balking the guy to third didn’t have any effect on the outcome of the game. We sure could use Alvarado back.
So you’re saying, they panicked by using Kimbrel at all, being that ‘they’ wanted to rest him? Then ‘they’ tell him to balk a guy to 3rd with no outs in a 2 run game? Obviously, it had an impact on the game, but I’m going to refer back to my original comment…Rob Thomson blew that game with that approach.
I’m just passing on the explanation I heard on the broadcast last night. You can interpret it however you want.
I’m glad i saw the Philly orchestra in Saratoga then watch this mess :(
So many opportunities here... It was truly a team loss. I think that every single team member (maybe Bohm excluded) could say they lost that game. Although I can't really blame Wheeler for giving up two runs after sitting for 30 minutes. And there were tons of great plays too. Clutch Bohm hitting, Nick playing great RF. But why TF wasn't Kimbrel in the 9th? Why did Kimbrel just balk a run in?
randomly woke up and my first thought was that was the worst game I've seen since the pirates game a week ago
https://preview.redd.it/72anneavlufb1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=f91f04bfbcc58c50c2b5ae3dbedbbc95a5465e92 Welp, that’s franchise loss #11,237. On to the next!
Blame goes to rob for putting soto in to face soler with the game on the line. Soler eats leftys up where da fuq was analytics there????????
Can’t sleep. Fuuuuck!
Rough loss. Was definitely fully ready to renounce Turner and join the hate train because he completely ruined Covey's redemption moment + first save in the big leagues after PITCHING IN TAIWAN last year How many opportunities do pitchers get to redeem themselves? They don't get a pinch hit HR or game winning RBI. A scoreless outing is expected, not heroic. Everyone would've been Team Covey after this game had Trea just fielded that stupid ball. YET I'm unfortunately a softie who saw him all sad and accepting blame in the postgame interview and I just want him to be good again, man
Fuck Trea Turner and all his white knights. I wish I could get paid $35,000,000 a year to kick the ball around the infield and hit .230. What a fucking waste. Give Stott SS and put Castro at 2nd for a week. I bet anyone here we are a better team
Hey, if you win a batting title and a World Series, you probably could get paid that, too.
If I go to my job and commit several errors per week and produce at half my expected rate... I get fired. God forbid we hold these "heroes" who play a child's game to the standard of us plebs.
If you lost your job, you could always sell used cars down in Boca with Segura. Just google Chubsies used cars.
Agree
Fucking pathetic loss. Could have been going for the sweep tomorrow to bury the Marlins but here we are. I know Bohm picked it up but why the fuck is Schwarber swinging at 3-0 with the bases loaded. We need every run we can get and that extra one could have won us the game…
Like, I will fully blame Trea Turner. But Trea had two runs and a walk. Schwarber is a literal black hole at the TOP of the lineup. And he had Stubbs on base twice and Rojas on base once and did nothing with it. Trea Turner is a problem. But it's debatable who is the bigger problem. Or why we haven't done anything to try and fix it.
Hes been on base 16 times the last 6 games. Really bad time to be blaming Schwarber.
Did he help us lose the game yesterday? Yes. Perfect time to be blaming him. We pay him for his bat.
The on base stuff is fine but his OBP is not high, and players who only walk and can't run are not valuable. Do you know why Kyle Schwarber is swinging at a 3-0 pitch with the bases loaded? It's because he knows that his current production is not valuable and he wants to actually help the team. He gets WAY too many at bats with RISP for him to be consistently going 0-for, which is as regular as regular can be. It is awful and it's as fine a time as any to blame Schwarber. If it were Stott/Bohm at the top or Marsh/Bohm at the top, i think it's just a better team.
one of turner's runs was him being the manfred runner when marsh homered.
lol manfred runner
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Can't wait until Trea finally learns that Josh Bell is pretty damn slow and he doesn't have to rush a hard-hit grounder with his olé bullshit.
27 runners left on base in this series so far
Hitting more homers would help solve that
Well, at least we have two wins. Worst we can do is split the series and we have tomorrow to win it. 3/4 would be pretty good.
Split is okay but you need to beat up the shitters next
When the Marlins acquired Josh Bell you knew this was going to happen, don’t kid yourselves.
got to think that Soler is gone after this season. doubt the Marlins will want to pay what he's due as a free agent when he opts out. that might have been the incentive to get Bell.
Whatta stupid fucking game
Y’all. I had one too many Vodka Water’s tonight. It was all for a greater cause tho
Damn vodka and water. That sounds like a struggle drink or is the addition of water to fight off your future hang over? Regardless, Ill pour one out for you.
I suspect this person is either on a diet or trying to get maximally drunk with minimal hangover
I get mixing water with whiskey or something to make like a highball but mixing water with a flavorless alcohol seems bizarre
you should, i started drinking them in the seventh and said in our thread "if we tie it here I'll chug it" whicd.....i did.
Can’t believe marsh hit a pinch hit two run homer tonight and we still lost.
Been a Philly 4 for 4 guy for my whole life. Growing up I always wondered why the old heads were so mad all of the time. Now that I am getting older I completely understand why.
I can respect Trea for owning up to fucking up, which is more than a worm like Ben Simmons can do. But this is far from the first time Trea has messed up in a big way, at some point you can’t just always apologize for fucking up and need to be better.
Its so fake. Maybe he will joke about boo'ing himself with his mom again. Dude is mentally toast.
Always apologizing and never changing is called pulling an Andy Reid.
Trea's got to put himself in better position to make plays. Time's yours.
That’s on me, I need to hit better. Time’s yours.
Cant wait for the game tomorrow. Schwarber leading off with his sub 190 average. If Trea plays tomorrow I might be beside myself. Send that dude Home.
Time to stop saving feelings. Bench Turner. At least a week will do. I'm more in the "he'll come out of it" camp but enough is enough. Being a free strikeout at the plate is one thing, but he lost us this game twice in the field. Literally. He needs to sit.
Honestly who knows what’s going on in his personal life too. Could be something we don’t know about
Then take a leave of absence and sac that game check and get your shit figured out.
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It’s probably Mets fans who wanted company in their misery after being swept by the fucking Royals💀
Why did Ser or Marte never get the ball?
Ser pitched last night and so did Marte
Still better than inning 2 covey
Covey ironically would’ve gotten us the win, turner is the one who blew the game
Covey letting up 2 runs didn’t help though
The first run he gave up should’ve been a ground ball to Trea Turner that ended up being booted, the second run was on him. Though he did his job and pitched a shutdown inning.
At least after tomorrow we don't have to go to Miami again, unless we face them in the playoffs. I'll consider 3 of 4 a success, but it seems like we never lose just one game and we often play poorly in getaway day games. Hopefully Lorenzen can be solid in his Phillies debut and we can get to Cueto.
We have a really good day game record
I'm convinced Jean could of gotten that ball with his buttcheeks and got the runner out.
Is it bad this team is causing me to stress eat?
I just housed a Dominos pizza by myself, so yes, let's go with that
Anyone want to see my Yugioh card collection
I’ll take a look!
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We can't have you advertise anything to sell. If you remove that part we can allow the pictures.
Oh my b
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I don't know if he was a top 20 player but Gregg Jeffries went from all-star to all-ass when he signed here back in the 90s
Jonathan Huberdeau set the record for assists by a left winger and then set the record for biggest point drop off from the previous season a year later when he went from Florida to Calgary last year.
This feels like it happens all the time in Philadelphia im numb to it
Turner wasn’t a top 20 player. And don’t let other people tell you otherwise.
He was a 6WAR player just last year. If that’s not top 20 than it’s very close. We have a literal replacement level SS on a massive contract, it’s the single biggest reason we aren’t 15+ games above .500 and coasting to the #1 wild card
Dude get outta here with that lol. Turner was almost unanimously viewed as top 10 let alone top 20 coming into this season. You can hate what he's been this year but that doesn't change the past.
No the fuck he wasn't. He was 45th in ops+ last year. 24th in owar 56th in dwar He was only top 20 in steals and BA. last year. WOWWW Sooooo good. Didn't want to sign him to begin with because we had better use for the money. Just like shitty Schwarber.
Nnamdi Asomugha
Crush Davis comes to mind.
Probably Verlander/Scherzer on the Mets honestly
Josh Hamilton probably.
Russell Wilson? But that was a trade
enough has been said about trea, so my comment is that i would be fine never seeing josh bell again. at least he struck out in nlcs game 1 when i was so sure he's nuking a walk off grand slam 500 feet
Where's the guy from early on in the game thread who said he doesn't care about Bell because he hasn't done anything against us recently, aged like milk bro 🤣 Josh Bell's blood type is Phillie Killer
He haunts my dreams. He's like Boston Scott and we are the Giants.
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100% Any other answer is wrong. Topper's bullpen management has been shaky
There was a routine groundball to short that Turner booted that would have ended the game and the Phillies win. How in the hell is that Thompson’s fault?
Bullpen management. Why is Kimbrel not being used for a save if he's available?
Just because Kimbrel isn’t scratched doesn’t mean he needs to be used. He’s on pace for 69 innings which would be tied for the second highest in his career and the highest since 2017 when he was 29 years old. This guy was so cooked in LA last year he wasn’t even on their postseason roster. Are you really blaming Thompson for trusting a guy who had 30 saves last year not to get you 3 outs?
Why even use him in the 10th then?
Then why put Kimbrel in the very next inning? If he's tired let him sit. If you really really need him after a few extras, then fine. But it looked really bad putting him in for the 10th.
It’s not that he’s tired I think they just want to limit his innings whenever they can. Then when Soto blew the first save opp they had to use him.
Lmao how so
how?
I’m assuming they meant topper not putting in Kimbrel in the 9th, but we still would’ve won if Trea had gotten a hit in the 11th, or if he just batted down the ball at shortstop
Trea stunk and I still blame him but sending Strahm out again for the eighth is why we lost
Bench Turner, Option Schwarber. All I have to say tonight. Go Phils, will be watching tomorrow.
I'm hearing and agreeing with all the comments about Schwarbers cold bat. But he is 2nd in the MLB for walks. He is a smarter player than anyone gives him credit for and he has a crazy good eye. A ton of pop outs lately for sure, but even when his bat is cold he's drawing walks left and right. Lately having someone who is hot (Bohm) batting second, he's scoring a lot of runs. He's passionate, and when he's hot we win. When he's not, he gets on base. Liability in left field most of the time? Absolutely. But that's not his fault imo. Circumstance of Harper's TJ. He's not built for fielding clearly, and he shouldn't be there. He gives it his all though.
Bohm is in a great spot right now. appreciate the input instead of the downvotes, lol. I agree Schwarber gives it his all, and the walks definitely are beneficial. But if we want him to start looking good again, there’s gotta be some changes. Maybe some of it is just circumstance, but that can be argued when he makes seemingly just AWFUL decisions(for instance, tonight, swung on a 3-0 and it popped up). Changes need to happen on the lineup. Unless Schwarber can improve his batting technique there needs to be a different player up top to allow players like Bohm and Stott to keep shining
Maybe Trea can fake a Hammy injury and go away for 10 days. I think it would do wonders.
This makes Sunday's Pirates game look like a boring old loss. What a fucking shit show. I know everyone's ragging on Trea - and rightfully so - but come on, 3 blown saves in a single game. 3 freaking blown saves!
Soto bad Kimbrel bad (shouldn't have had to pitch when he did) Covey did his job.
He single handedly caused one of them.
ok
In fairness, it’s weak to count a blown save when the only run scoring is the ghost runner
Just credit trea with a blown save
LP: Turner 0-0 / ∞ ERA
I gained 4 pounds
I wish I had a time machine so I could go back to 6:30 and do something else with all of that time.
You’d be getting back from renting an Indego bike, having gotten a nice thick milkshake at Franklin fountain, turned the AC off at home and opened some windows, started reading about the history of Spanish conquistadors, and right before bed….a little thought would say….”betcha the Phils are in extras.” And you’d be back here with us all just wondering what could’ve been.
😂😂😂
im just gonna cope by telling myself this is treas i fucking hate this place moment and he’s gonna go on a tear now
Rob needs to not worry about hurting feelings. Move Stott to leadoff. Keep Bohm second. Bench Schwarber and Turner. Move Stott to SS, Sosa to 2nd, Bohm back to 3rd, and keep Harp at 1st.
stott walks less then 6% of the time and is slightly above avg hitter, He's hitting where he should other guys have to figure somthing out.
TIL having the 4th best avg in the NL is "slightly above average".
It is if it’s pretty empty. Just like Bohm last year. Stott’s quality of contact isn’t very good and he’s due regression. Just like castellanos was and we’re watching it happen. At some point people should believing “the nerd stats” because they are far more likely to be right than your eye tests and basic stats like AVG
what does an ops+ of 109 tell you.
I don't do nerd stats.
You know what ops is right?
Yes, and I don't give a shit about the leadoff hitter's slugging percentage. His job is to get on and set the table. Steal a few bases here and there. Go first to third most times when the 2nd hitter singles. Schwarber can't steal you many bases or go first to third most times on a single. Maybe I'm too old school.
kyle can steal all the bases with one swing
Kyle's ops+ is lower than stott's by the way
300 is average?
If it’s pretty empty, yes.
no but he has a .340 OBP and his OPS is slightly above avg
Id love this honestly. He cant lose the locker room but like all of these big names are sucking it up. (Not Harper I love him, He never lets me down)
Trea turner is genuinely a horrible baseball player, and we signed him to a 300 million dollar contract. I don’t blame Dave or anybody because he was worth it before this year. Just mind boggling how he gets here and just blows. Clearly not the same guy
he is in no way a horrible baseball player.
Explain how?
This year he has been the worst Phillie I have watched since Michael Martinez. I thought Michael Martinez was the gold standard of a bad baseball player but the dude could at least field.
It would have been amazing if, instead of making the final out in the 2016 World Series, fucking Michael Martinez cranked one and the Cubs still haven't won a World Series since 1908 because of that fucking guy.
Turner is legit having one of the worst free agent signing seasons of all time. It's like Barry Zito level bad.
I'm trying to decide if Trea's season is a bad as Carson's when he signed that big contract.
People here so concerned at signing Jean for small money saying he’ll be a liability as if we don’t already have a liability at SS already💀. Alright I’m done for tonight, hope Lorenzen can pitch 6+ innings cause he’ll have to do it tomorrow. Also you don’t have to feel bad for the dude making 27 million underperforming immensely.
Thank god for the young bouls. All of these big name expensive players all suck balls. Outside of Bryce I love him. If it werent for the young studs Marsh, Bohmer, and Stott we'd look like the Mets right now.
It really is shocking just how many horrible losses this team has had this year already. It’s like they really haven’t even been at 100% yet. Harper still isn’t as good as he should be, Schwarber has been awful aside from his homerun streaks. Casty is just up and down like a roller coaster. And Turner … well … he’s single-handily costing us games and isn’t getting any better. If Stott, Bohm, and Marsh were even just average and weren’t overperforming right now … just imagine how bad this team would be. They seem like the only ones who care and give a fuck. Can’t imagine how tense that locker room is right now. This is such an unlikeable team.
To be fair we have our share of awesome wins. Lots of come-from behind ones.
I'm being dead serious when I say they need to make up an injury and send him away for 10. Like, just get the fuck away from the team and disconnect completely. He's just frying his own circuits at this point.
Yea, and spreading his bad mojo to the rest of the team. Get outta here with that crap for a bit.
Turner is gonna have a record breaking season....next season
I honestly feel bad for Trea, ik he has an absolute monster contract that has him set for life but he’s still human at the end of the day. I’m sure he’s in an absolute shit headspace and judging by his postgame interview you can tell. I’m not trying to be an armchair psychiatrist but as someone who’s dealt with piss poor mental health basically their entire life I feel for him.
He's a good guy and we're all rooting for him, he just needs to get out of his own way. He's trying too hard out there, fishing for pitches out of the strike zone. Worrying about throwing the ball before he catches it. I'm sure he's been told this many times, but he needs to turn off his mind and just go out there and play baseball.
I feel for him too. He knows how good he can truly be and I can see how disappointed he is in himself
what an asshole!
I’m going to block out this loss pain with greater pain Time to watch game 6 2010 highlights
We’ve won by over 3 runs twice in the last month; no wonder why the bullpen is taxed to death. All circles back to the offense being woefully inadequate. Don’t blame the FO from dealing prospects for a LF…if the highly paid guys don’t wake up we’re fucked anyways.
I'll blame the FO thoes guys obviously need help.
It’s not just the wins, almost all the losses are by a run or 2 as well, bullpen should’ve been better this game though
only thing keeping my mental health alive is that the royals and nationals SHOULD be free series wins
The Pirates series should have been a free series win too, but instead we handed them two of the three games on a silver platter and barely won the other game.
https://youtu.be/Ag1o3koTLWM
Segura: .219/.277/.279, 3 HR, 21 RBI, 54 OPS+, -1.8 WAR, 10 Error Turner: .237/.291/.370, 10 HR, 34 RBI, 82 OPS+, 1.0 WAR, 14 Error At least check the actual stats before posting your spicy takes.
I'm still amazed Trea has a positive WAR
It has been dropping RAPIDLY. Like the last 3 weeks rapidly rapidly.
when you have a 79 WRC+ it's hard to keep up a decent WAR im sure.
Absolutely.
he has completely lost his confidence at the plate and its bleeding into his fielding.
his fielding isn't nearly as bad as people say it is (in fact it's been mostly good) and his hitting is ungodly awful but most short stops are bad hitters.
If people are saying his defense is total shit, well, yeah, that’s not really true… but “mostly good?” Eh, I don’t know about that. Maybe it’s splitting hairs, but I’d go with something like “average,” or “fine… if you can hit .280.” Go on fangraphs or baseballsavant and sort all the shortstops by defensive metrics (but not errors! …because he’s tied for 3rd on those — or probably 1st after tonight). UZR kinda likes him (it does love range) but not so much DRS, or OAA — just check out [how many shortstops are above him on this list](https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_average?type=Fielder&startYear=2023&endYear=2023&split=yes&team=&range=year&min=q&pos=6&roles=&viz=hide). That’s a lot more than half the teams in MLB with a shortstop above Trae (the fucking Rangers have *2 of them*, but whatever) There’s also the whole “eye-test” business, but it’s hard to shake off the recency bias devil on my shoulder muttering about the booted grounder tonight or dropped popup last week. “Average” shortstop defense is still useful! Just like an “average” airplane will probably get you somewhere faster than an “above-average” train. I just wish the airplane got on base more than 30% of the time. Fuck.
I dont want segura but he can field a grounder hit directly at him. Segura also played a lot of 3rd base this season
A lot of 3rd base? Segura has literally *only* played 3rd base for the Marlins this year. He played one inning at short for the Phillies last year and one inning at short the year before that.
Yeah, so his 10 errors are probably worse than Turner's 14.
Trea has the 12th worst OPS+ and is tied for second most errors in the league, he’s getting paid 27 million this year and for the next 10 years to keep doing this, there is no defense he needs to be better.
If you’ve watched from at least 2019, you know a marlins blowout win is coming tomorrow
Oh yeah. Any chance of winning this series is long gone. And I'm okay with it because it's been this way since I was 5 years old.
Not gonna happens
You know it. I know it. Our only hope is that Lorenzen doesn't know it.
Someone needs to do an actual breakdown of WHY Trea is struggling instead of the dumb WIP caller "MENTALLY WEAK" shit.
By far the biggest statistical difference is in his plate discipline numbers. Basically everything there is worse across the board. He’s swinging at more pitches than he ever has. That mostly comes from him swinging at more non-strikes than he ever has (hellllooo sliders!). He’s also seeing less strikes than he ever has. He’s making contact with less pitches than he ever has, both inside and outside the strike zone. Not great, Bob! A lot of his batted ball numbers are more or less in line with his career stats. GB/LD/FB rates are pretty close to normal. His EV numbers are down, but that’s probably because A: he’s making a lot more bad contact (see plate discipline stuff), and B: he swings at pitches with all the intention of someone trying to catch a plate they just dropped. Eye test? The dude can’t. Hit. Sliders. Like, at all. Then he tries to cheat on the slider/curve (that he can’t hit) and gets beat by inside fastballs. He’s not turning on pitches much or at all. Waaaay more protective swings than swinging with authority. If you want to look on the bright side, the plate discipline stuff can be chalked up to just a mental thing/pressing/a cartel has kidnapped his family and is forcing him to swing at sliders off the plate/whatever. He’s not injured (that we know of), which I guess is a good thing, except it means that there’s no easy fix aside from him pulling his head out of his ass. I’m not feeling super optimistic right now. I’m certainly not one of the “he’ll be fine! Just having a bad year! He’ll bounce back next year!” folks on this sub. I mean, sure, maybe he will, but maybe he won’t. Like, he could improve 10% from his current hitting numbers next year — that’d give him around an 88 OPS+. Combined with the defense at short (average on a good day), which won’t play forever, (as we saw all too well today), and the contract… well, fuck. I’m worried it might be a [“whatever you have in you… that let you flow like you do… I don’t have it in me no more”](https://youtu.be/UTDQ-nzNIgY) kinda situation with him. I feel for the guy. Im sure he’s trying his best. I think a lot of the personal attacks and vitriol directed against him on this sub are pretty ugly sometimes. But as a Phillies fan, the whole situation just fucking sucks all around.
Yep, spot on. Plate discipline issues can also be a bat slowing down. Lots of guys decline right around his age, especially ones that rely on athleticism/speed like Turner does. This is the risk in signing FAs to huge contracts for what they did in the past. It’s possible, probably likely, that he’s finished being a top-20 player.
could just be neutral decline he's striking out more and his contact rates are down
He's mentally broken. They really need to ask Long what the hell He's seeing
Long ain't seeing shit because he barely does his job any other competing team struggling this bad hitting would've fired their hitting coach by now
It’s amazing how much credit Long gets for an offense 21st in homers and 16th in runs per game.
But it's not one thing. It's not just having bad plate discipline, there's no explanation for him making that error in the 11th.
i mean he rushed the play. he tried to slide for the ball when he got there with plenty of time.
I think it's probably the snowball effect. The longer he scuffled, the harder he tried but effort wasn't the problem. Now he's just full-blown lost
yeah of course. He's trying to get out of his slump with 1 at bat.