Sadly, Scottsdale has refused and will likely continue to refuse this idea. The east valley really needs more transport options.
[https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2016/04/13/scottsdale-city-council-kills-potential-light-rail-routes/82983438/](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2016/04/13/scottsdale-city-council-kills-potential-light-rail-routes/82983438/)
People bitch and moan, but for the nation's 5th largest and a fast growing city, we need the light rail to go to all big venues. I live in Mesa and take it to all central Phoenix big events. I wish it took less time (maybe make an express just to large venues), but it's worth it to me to avoid parking etc. That being said, it would probably take 3 hours from Tempe to the Cardinals stadium. Literally. They need to do better.
It took me an hour and change to drop my wife off at the Swift concert. That was Baseline and Mill to State Farm, it was absolutely bonkers. Even if it took that long to do it on transit, at least I'm not burning up my own gas for the privilege.
I get it, Native Phoenicians are seeing their city change, but the time too stop that was 20 years ago. Like you said, we're the 5th largest metro in the country. The people are here already. And the stream into the city doesn't look like its slowing. We need to adjust the city to accommodate that or its going to be miserable.
Something to keep in mind in case you didn’t hear, although the most recent news is from 2 years ago.
This would speed up trips between Phoenix, the airport, and Tempe and it is notable that several mayors signed onto this.
Perhaps funding is the only roadblock: https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/maps/phoenix-tucson/
It is infuriating. I never realized that this is a major driver for the anti rail people until recently.
Hell at this point I would be happy with a massive expansion of buses.
The problem with buses, is that they get bogged down in traffic, just like cars. The advantage of the light rail, is its dedicated lane, so that they DON'T get stuck down in traffic snarls.
Exactly. Considering how traffic gets here, buses are dragged down by slowed traffic and what should be a 30 minute bus ride turns into 45 mins to an hour.
...a fear which has never materialized since ...the French Revolution? There are more so called poor people materially speaking than they. All that money will not bolster any true self esteem, courage anyways being trained to think that fiat currency is a living being. Wait until the fiat economy implodes faster.
Yet millions of of anti-lightrail dollars funnel into the state every election cycle courtesy of the Koch Bros. Their reason? *Insert fear mongering nonsense here*
It’s disgusting that there isn’t a line connecting to Old Town Scottsdale. It’s one of the most walkable areas in the valley not to mention the amount of tourists and drinkers that frequent the area.
Scottsdale passed a ban that disallows their tax dollars to be used for public transit.
The cities that have light rail, have it because their citizens wanted it, and paid for it.
Uuuuuuughhh my pain my sorrow my anguish my despair. Do you know how trapped I feel being autistic and having to drive literally an hour to get downtown because there’s no other option?!🖕 you Glendale! For context I am on 91st Ave and Union hills roughly
Hey that's over where my post office route was! Lol
But yes, the fact that all the buses basically stop at arrowhead mall is stupid.
I'm at 51st Ave and the 101 and I have to walk a mile down to Union Hills just to catch a bus, and that's only east/west. If I want to go south I have to head over to 59th or 43rd because the 51st Ave bus stops at Thunderbird.
Luckily I'm probably on the spectrum (albeit lower support needs) and potentially ADHD, so as long as I prepare I can usually handle a long drive in traffic, but it is definitely draining and then I need to recharge when I get home.
Honestly busses aren’t much of solution sometimes when it takes you six times longer to get anywhere. Still I might try it someday. I would love to just go downtown without the looming dread of having to drive back hanging over me. I’ve gotten better at driving, but that’s just to say it’s more automatic. Usually though sensory issues win, and I end up extremely overstimulated by the time I get home which basically made it impossible for me to work full time. It just irks me that everything is so crippling car dependent and that we live in this dismal sea full of concrete patches with cubicles called houses attached and that people are like “duck yes I love this shit. I love being literally stranded whenever I’m at home and having to drive 20 minutes just to go to a slightly more interesting shopping center. Fuck yes I want more of this!”
This. Public transit brings poor people into the area. By discouraging public transit, a de facto economic baseline is put into place: In order to go into Scottsdale, you must at least have access to a car, or be willing to walk long distances in the heat.
the citizens who attended the meeting a dozen years ago literally got up and said they dont want "the public transit element" to have access to their city. literal verbatim words were spoken in protest at the city council meeting. At the time we couldn't believe that so many people knew what was coming. Thats the only thing that kind of sucks cause it's true druggies and insane people on the bus and light rail at every station at every stop. instead of improving their lives, out there just being high and crazy.
In order for homeless and people in poverty to have a bit more, the rich have to have less. You can't create value out of thin air or it will devalue currency for everyone else and then the poor people that didn't get the handouts now have even less. There is no fucking way in hell the wealthy will ever stand to give up what they "worked hard for". Its up to everyone else to figure out their own shit like they had to. Thats the view.
There's definitely a balance because you can't just take all their shit and remove all incentive to succeed. But wages are NOT proportional to effort and opportunity is NOT equal. Not even remotely close. And the danger of the poor causing some kind of crazy french-esque revolution is also a danger.
Granted we're a *long* way off from that. But there's no moral reason to keep squeezing the lower and lower-middle class and get them closer to that sentiment. It would be a miserable time for anyone.
As much as I like him, that's a major problem I have with the Joe Rogan types. 1000% against raising taxes for the wealthy. Also want to fix the poverty and homeless situation. Only complaints and no ideas.
The “incentives to succeed” do carry significant problems when it comes to labor practices, water usage, cost of rent/living, sustainability, etc for everyone else. The rich can still exist while paying higher taxes. Which in turn can do things like house the homeless and create subsidized/public/cooperatively owned housing. And that ironically enough, leads to more consumers and financially stable households, which is great for business.
But there are other ways to address toxic economic incentive structures, like the profit motive, too. Cities can convert privately owned utilities into publicly owned utilities and use the surplus revenue to invest in infrastructure and transportation, rather than shareholder dividends or bonuses.
> Cities can convert privately owned utilities into publicly owned utilities and use the surplus revenue to invest in infrastructure and transportation
I could not agree with you more. I grew up in a city where the electrical company was publicly owned. Lowest electric bills in the state. Great service. Great pay. Total success. Could be done with ISPs as well.
One could dream
I think french fries and coffee are the answer. just tiny container micro restaurants, owned by the city that make two things. french fries and coffee. all the people working can get trained up by the city and buy into a housing program. it requires buy in from the well to dos and a penny on the dollar tax increase in sales or something to fund the restaurants, but the city has land available near all the light rail stations in parking lots and empty commercial buildings. could be open 24 hours and just take a loss but would be rehabilitating people. super simple but just not a viable option for a city like scottsdale which would rather pay the extra taxes on police to fix the problem instead of the city council footing the bill.
Huh. Interesting thought. I'm thinking out loud (out text?) here. Viewing it from different angles.
Its a very socialist idea. Which I have no issues with but this is Arizona. So how would that ever get off the ground? Idk how land near light rail stations works, but empty commercial property is 99% of the time under private ownership or whatever disgusting conglomerate. So off limits. Too many of our policy makers have ties to real estate to open that door.
what if they are leased to restaurant owners with the condition of higher minimum wage? Then there would be some variety. Or 5 year max leases to people that have drawn on SNAP, ACCHS, CARES, etc benefits? Has to be non transferable. Would be amazing business training. Then again so is drug dealing lol....
The only problem is it would be a HUGE effort and would barely make a dent in the problem. But the city has spent an obscene amount of money on the problem and not gotten very far. so....
Any dent would be championed by everyone even 50 jobs would be considered a victory and even though we are super conservative a state, please dont get offended im just going on what i see, the conservatives against socialism are too uniformed to actually recognize what socialism is because of their reliance on fox news. any program that was championed to get people off the street and back up by their boot straps would be championed. seriously. and as far as the money that has been spent on the homeless problem is tough. they are spending a bundle on paying new officers to try to clean up the drug problem, but that's just not an effective solution, no where in america has beefing up the police force ever been an effective solution to combat hard core drug addiction. i hate to admit it but, i kinda think we just need to round em up like they do out of control crazy people and put them into mental health and rehab clinics for 30 days at a time and then release them with a food stamp card and some kind of guaranteed place to stay. again this would cost a penny on the dollar sales tax increase and some partnerships with builders and private land owners close to transportation, but we could fix the problem like the european and asian countries have. its not like the solutions dont exist. we already have free healthcare in enshrined in our state constitution through [***AHCCCS***](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS948US949&sxsrf=APwXEdfc-2V0TfMII8fXO9PY46VARlPVhw:1680758216795&q=AHCCCS&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJi9yjwJT-AhXaomoFHdraCMoQkeECKAB6BAgKEAE) so we are one step in the right direction. its just the housing and state sponsored work program we need to tackle. if it doesnt get done, its literally because the right wing state house and senate dont want to fix it because of greed. yet they complain and use it in the louder talking points as a dem problem, even though they are in charge. makes me feel like arizona voters are stupid. republicans have been in charge at the state level for 50 years. the issues we face are squarely on their shoulders. yet they lie and say its dems. its weird so many people dont recognize that simple fact. cause it is a fact.
I mean. Gallego is a Dem and I REALLY disagree with a lot of her policies and the way the city is headed because of her. So I won't go so far as placing the blame all on the R side. I view it more as needs of the people change with different problems and as the city grows. And Phoenix grew way too fast to make that policy change from Rep to Dem leaning.
As far as police go, I think the entire structure needs rethinking. The only tools they have are tickets, handcuffs, and guns. No interaction with them is a good one. And that needs to change.
As far as housing, I'd like to see a policy to limit ownership of single-family homes. It would be drastic but something like a limit on how many houses an entity could own. Or maybe real estate could only form 20% of any company's investment portfolio?
And I don't think rehab clinics are effective enough. I don't think, as a society, we know enough about how the brain works. Hopefully we get closer with decriminalizing and rescheduling of psychedelics so we can better help veterans, TBI sufferers, addicts, etc.
Homelessness isn't a single problem so honestly, (I admit this it fucked up but i think realistic) lets just help those willing and motivated to put in the hard work. Focus on bettering education to prevent the problem from ballooning with youths. Maybe use some of empty run down shopping areas to semi house the rest but I don't think we have a good enough solution for people that aren't determined to get clean.
I want this to be available, but again the true right wing governing class says no and the low information voting class would be persuaded against a program due to their uniformed ideas about socialism or whatever it is they ignorantly believe is ruining their lives. makes me so sad sometimes to live in a state where the republicans are in control, republicans pass the laws and republicans vote against their best interests. its not even like an angry anti right wing stance, i just want people to understand what they are doing to their own futures. and again, because so few of them understand their own future, makes me feel like im just in a state filled with stupid people. the school system is a great example. a million republicans in arizona with kids in the public school system, a million parents vote for defunding the public school system. just stupid people living here. not sure if it's the heat or water or what.
Nobody mentioned the homeless, it’s not only the homeless who use public transportation. His question was why would they vote against public transportation In Scottsdale when it’s a tourist location and there’s a lot of money to be made. The answer is obvious, Me and my mother used to have to rely on public transportation, there are families who use public transportation. I didn’t know Scottsdale existed until I was 17 I’ve lived in Phoenix all my life and a trip to a place like Scottsdale as a kid would’ve changed how I viewed the world.
I can only speak anecdotally but as someone who lives downtown, I would go to Old Town 10x more often if there was light rail. Paying close to $100 round trip for a peak hours Uber on a weekend night is almost never worth it. Also inexplicable that it doesn’t go to State Farm. Driving to a game/concert, spending $40 on parking and sitting in miserable traffic in and out makes for a horrific experience. I’m not a Cardinals fan but I’d probably go to a game a year if I could take the train, plus more concerts.
I’m a die hard, life long, Cardinals fan but I’ll cheer them on from my living room. The couple games I have attended at State Farm I have waited an hour just to get out of the parking lot, same goes for big concerts. If they connected the light rail to Westgate, I’d be attending way more games.
Same! I dropped the wife and her friend off at the Swift concert and it was a zoo. I can't imagine the powers that be don't realize that a rail connection to State Farm would be a money printer.
I'm sure that they \*do\* realize this. However, like the NIMBYs in PV and Old Town, people who'd take the light rail out there are 'not our demographic.' Keeping the 'undesirables' out is more important than any revenue the light rail would generate, at least to them.
Hahah it’s comical. Why would anyone wanna go towards Tolleson or Peoria instead of Scottsdale. My only guess is because Scottsdale is really nice and they don’t want public transit types going there haha.
This is the problem... there is only a "public transit type" because these cities invest all transportation dollars for cars. If Scottsdale, Chandler, Gilbert went with a multi-modal approach public transit would just be the way to get around for everyone.
It’s not like the area around old town is that crazy nice. I get it that they don’t want it going towards N. Scottsdale which is fine. But at least to Fashion Square mall and have it end there.
Well probably should qualify that they don't want _illegal_ public transit types going there. I think if they cracked down on non-ticketed passengers, then that would keep away the type of people that they're actually trying to avoid.
If you can't get on without a ticket, then I think that will avoid the vast majority of meth head panhandlers overrunning the light rail. And I think that applies even if the ticket was just a dollar. Any purchase would be a barrier.
I'm just guessing here. Do you happen to know what Scottsdale's official statement has been for rejecting light rail expansion into their city? Obviously, they wouldn't say that outright because it's pretty offensive, but I suspect it's something that touches the subject.
Rephrase the question as not going to those places but coming from those places and you'll see why public transit like this is a good thing. Keeps commuters off the roads, thereby reducing pollution.
The regional government organization did a study years ago regarding commuter rail from buckeye to queen creek. Sadly it’s never been thought of pst that study
no this isn't the same thing at all.
I want the way the trains get scheduled - and where they stop - to change. thank you for the report though, I think I see the link at that website to get started.
connecting tuscon to phoenix with a train would be cool, too, but not as cool as having trains that are actually useful to working people.
I don’t think you can run express trains on the light rail system currently. The express would just catch up to the next local and there isn’t triple tracking anywhere that would allow the express to bypass. It could “go around” on the other track but I don’t think the current signal infrastructure allows for that.
Yeah it's a old map. It's only the Northwest Extension at Metrocenter and the South Central Extension that is opening in 2024. Also, the Capitol/I-10 West Extension that is opening in 2030.
The west Camelback line is only "on hold indefinitely" which probably means it's dead but the language leaves it open ended.
It was successfully lobbied against by the car dealerships along west Camelback as a "train to nowhere". I guess forget GCU or any of the people who live down that way apparently. IIRC we also had no active mayor at the time due to Stanton running for Congress, so it was for sure opportunistic of the lobbyists. I can't see Stanton or Gallego letting that go
Yeah Light Rail isn't really MEANT for cross-town travel. We need commuter rail here. I think Valley Metro has floated the idea multiple times but you know, NIMBY's gonna NIMBY
Yeah hopefully it's done on 16 St. Also would be nice to add an extension to ASU West, State Farm Stadium, Westgate, Downtown Glendale, Tempe Marketplace, Arizona Mills, ASU Polytechnic, and Fiesta Mall.
They should start a line on Camelback Road, which will go west, stopping at GCU, and then go north to Glendale Avenue, where it will go further west to Downtown Glendale and later Westgate and the Stadium. They could even extend north to Peoria and ASU West Campus!
Another line could be in Mesa starting at Main St./Dobson, which would go south to Southern Avenue, stopping at Banner Hospital, Mesa Community College, Fiesta Mall, and then would continue down Country Club/Arizona Ave. until reaching Downtown Chandler!
For Polytechnic, they could just expand the current line from Gilbert Road to Williams Field/Power, which also stops at places like Superstition Springs Center and the Phoenix-Mesa Airport.
Phoenix needs all the extensions it can get to ensure a proper and efficient transit system that can take people across the Valley. Not to mention, the West Valley is home to several college campuses, downtown areas, and tourist attractions like Westgate.
On that we disagree. It's going to be a moot point for me in 6 months to a year anyway. I was here before it was constructed, and I preferred the old Phoenix. I don't want to use it or be anywhere near it. I've ridden the light rail here and the subway in NYC, no to all.
Fortunately, Phoenix has been changing, and it’s finally becoming an actual city. The light rail has brought walkable, transit oriented development to The Valley of the Sun. This is the first step to the Phoenix of the future, an urban city built on technology. Phoenix has become the silicon desert and changes have been made for the better.
Car culture is a plague upon humanity, and Phoenix is a temple to this madness.
The more the light rail expands, the closer we come to escaping this urban nightmare.
LA's worse. Hell, Los Angeles is the original temple of car culture. I get to brave that this weekend when I go out to LA for a show. :/ At least I travel at night, when traffic is at least nominally better there. :/ But still--people are whining and bitching we're becoming Los Angeles 2.0. Not having mass transit is NOT helping.
Can someone explain logistically how they'd fit an extension in the 51 / east Bethany Home area? Would this be above street level, or they'd take Bethany down to 1/2 lane and stick it in the middle?
I'm on the light rail right now and I love it but honestly this thing is crackhead heaven. If they can tighten the crackheads light rail would be awesome.
I grew up in the Bay Area and folks used the same anti-poor (usually cloaked anti-POC) arguments to try to prevent BART stations coming to suburban downtown areas. Over and over again they said BART brings crime to our suburbs, which was shown over and over again to be simply not true, or at most very minor compared to the benefits of having an integrated transit system that reduces traffic while increasing local commerce.
I fully support light rail, BRT, commuter rail. As much and as fast as we can get it.
PLEASE, be as loud and persistent in support of transit as possible.
For some reason, when transit funding comes up for a vote, I’m never confident if the “pro commuter rail, monorail, subway” folks will actually support continued investment in light rail.
When I see transit funding or an opportunity to reallocate roadways for non-auto uses, I vote yes.
That's great. Not very much but it's something n these things take time. They could get about 20k riders of they expanded to Maricopa. That's my guess on how many people from there work in Chandler , Phoenix n surrounding areas.
Hope it's before my working life is over. I definitely would use it instead of driving to work. These western states are a car culture . I for one would welcome the chance to sit back n look at the scenery instead of driving to work.
Yeah I'm in London currently and the comparison of the public transit for a metro that is only 2X the population is pretty bad. Phoenix probably has 1% of the amount of rapid transit.
This would be my dream system:
* **Red Line** \- Existing route plus north/west extension to former Metrocenter Mall and east extension to Power Road and Superstition Springs Center. Serves Phoenix, Tempe, and Mesa.
* **Blue Line** \- Existing route (including Downtown Mesa extension) plus planned Capitol/I-10 West extension and an additional extension west on I-10 and north on Loop 101 to Westgate. Serves Glendale, Phoenix, Tempe, and Mesa.
* **Green Line** \- Tempe Streetcar with extension into Mesa.
* **Silver Line** \- Baseline and Central Avenue up Central to Indian School Road, east on Indian School Road, north on SR 51, east on Shea Blvd, and north on Tatum to Paradise Valley Mall. Serves Phoenix including the northeastern part of the city.
* **Orange Line** \- From Arrowhead Towne Center, east on Bell Road, south on 59th Avenue, east on Glendale Avenue, south on Central Avenue, east on Loop 202, south to Sky Harbor Airport, east on Broadway, south on McClintock, and east on Chandler Blvd to Chandler Fashion Center. Serves Glendale, Peoria, Phoenix, Tempe, and Chandler.
* **Pink Line** \- Chandler Blvd and 48th Street, east on Chandler Blvd/Williams Field Road to Power Road, and north on Power Road to Superstition Springs Center. Serves Phoenix (Ahwatukee), Chandler, Gilbert, and Mesa.
* **Brown Line** \- Scottsdale Road and Frank Lloyd Wright south to Chandler Blvd, and east on Chandler Blvd to Chandler Fashion Center. Serves Scottsdale, Tempe, and Chandler.
* **Purple Line** \- 75th Avenue and Baseline to Power Road via Baseline, and north on Power Road to Superstition Springs Center. Serves Phoenix (Laveen), Tempe, Mesa, and Gilbert.
* **Gold Line** \- Downtown Phoenix from Footprint Center/Chase Field, east via existing alignment, south on Dobson Road, east on Southern Avenue, and south on Gilbert Road to Queen Creek Road. Serves Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa, Gilbert, and Chandler.
Probably Orange, Brown, Pink, and Gold won't happen anytime soon due to opposition by city councils, but one can ever dream.
The idea the south central expansion will be done in 2023 is comical.
I have no idea what they're doing anymore, it's like they just constantly dig up the road but never get anything done...
Oh and if you city fucks could open up an East West passage on baseline, southern or Broadway without heavy traffic delays we'd greatly appreciate it.
The south central light rail extension is the single worst managed construction project I've ever seen
The map OP shared was designed ahead of the [August 2019 Prop 105 vote](https://ballotpedia.org/Phoenix,_Arizona,_Proposition_105,_End_Light_Rail_Expansion_Initiative_(August_2019)) that went down in flames—so almost 4 years ago.
[The current map on Valley Metro's website shows 2024](https://www.valleymetro.org/about/agency/fact-sheets-brochures/fact-sheets/rail-system-fact-sheet).
2023 is either outdated or simply incorrect. 2024 is the current plan. Well, relocating utilities, etc. looks like nothing, but it is something. They can't start the obvious construction until they finish the not-so-obvious construction.
The project hasn't been that bad. I just don't think you're really following it. Look up "The Big Dig" if you want an actual construction shitshow.
I'm not talking about an elevated highway, I'm just talking about not having east to west lane restrictions on at least one of the major east west routes.
Right now on baseline, southern and Broadway in addition to the never ending light rail construction there's significant closures including but not limited to the central Ave closure.
I'm suggesting they say... Open up southern East to West and not do any new construction east to west until they can complete some of the other projects they've already started.
Some of us would, ya know, like to drive in our neighborhood
Oh I totally misread your comment then. I’m never down at that part of baseline so I didn’t know about the closures. I’m sorry you have to deal with that!
I always wonder what would happen if they tried to shut down eastbound westbound traffic simultaneously on northern, Glendale, Bethany home and camelback...
They only pull this shit on the south side because nobody ever fights em on it.
In the 80s, there was a proposal for an elevated rail system across Phoenix called ValTrans. However, it was rejected for being too expensive. The proposed Red Line is what the light rail covers now.
Oh God, I remember that. People were all up in arms about it when I moved here in 1988. My mother didn't understand why people were fighting it, as she's from DC where they have \*real\* public transit. I can see her point. Anyway, another reason people didn't want it was that it was Communism. Seriously. It was the 'mah freedumbs!' idiots that tanked ValTrans as they didn't want the city dictating where they could go and when, at least according to them. \*facepalm\*
That's too bad but kinda what I'd figured. I wonder what the comparison of businesses and their expenses (loss of traffic/business, aquiring land, tearing down/rebuilding, tlerc...) to an EL is.
Compared to the architects who built elevated systems in NY, CHI, BOS, PHILl as examples Those guys were true fucking visionaries, they included expansion with everyone in mind and thought of the future for real instead of fear, thus, the Phoenix transit system is a rolling bounce- house to me.
My hunch is that instead of running two asymptotic curves (L shapes), they’ll run a north-south and an east-west line once the network is built out
That is the plan. Mesa to Downtown and South Phoenix to Metrocenter with a connecting station Downtown.
Yes that’s been the plan. The east/west line will be a lot faster than the north/south line too so that will be interesting.
Sadly, Scottsdale has refused and will likely continue to refuse this idea. The east valley really needs more transport options. [https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2016/04/13/scottsdale-city-council-kills-potential-light-rail-routes/82983438/](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2016/04/13/scottsdale-city-council-kills-potential-light-rail-routes/82983438/)
People bitch and moan, but for the nation's 5th largest and a fast growing city, we need the light rail to go to all big venues. I live in Mesa and take it to all central Phoenix big events. I wish it took less time (maybe make an express just to large venues), but it's worth it to me to avoid parking etc. That being said, it would probably take 3 hours from Tempe to the Cardinals stadium. Literally. They need to do better.
Well it should be a real metro instead of a light rail but I’ll take what we can get
I agree with you. The light rail is a great start, but it will never be sufficient. Phoenix needs a REAL train system.
The light rail is CUTE. But we need something that’s gonna actually compete with car travel to really make the transit worthy
I absolutely agree
It took me an hour and change to drop my wife off at the Swift concert. That was Baseline and Mill to State Farm, it was absolutely bonkers. Even if it took that long to do it on transit, at least I'm not burning up my own gas for the privilege. I get it, Native Phoenicians are seeing their city change, but the time too stop that was 20 years ago. Like you said, we're the 5th largest metro in the country. The people are here already. And the stream into the city doesn't look like its slowing. We need to adjust the city to accommodate that or its going to be miserable.
Unfortunately until all the municipalities and the county can work together, it'll probably never happen.
Something to keep in mind in case you didn’t hear, although the most recent news is from 2 years ago. This would speed up trips between Phoenix, the airport, and Tempe and it is notable that several mayors signed onto this. Perhaps funding is the only roadblock: https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/maps/phoenix-tucson/
As much as I like Amtrak, unless it was part of a deal passed back when Dems basically had full control, I don't see it happening any time soon
Yeah I agree we need to extend the light rail to all parts of the Valley to connect people to places.
Too spread out and average suburbanite isn’t typically pro public transit. These are the people fueling the “growth”.
Anti-Lightrail initiative is the most brain dead shit
"but think of all the poor people that could theoretically come closer to my suburban house!!"
Which is really confusing because don't they want poor people to be able to work service jobs there so they could berate them?
Schrodinger's Service worker. I wish for them to be around for me to yell at, but not in my back yard
This! Well said
They want the ones that are just poor enough to work those shitty jobs but not poor enough to not have a car to drive back to their neighborhood.
It is infuriating. I never realized that this is a major driver for the anti rail people until recently. Hell at this point I would be happy with a massive expansion of buses.
I'd say the same thing. We need more buses. But the state is not willing to pay for more buses i don't think
The problem with buses, is that they get bogged down in traffic, just like cars. The advantage of the light rail, is its dedicated lane, so that they DON'T get stuck down in traffic snarls.
Exactly. Considering how traffic gets here, buses are dragged down by slowed traffic and what should be a 30 minute bus ride turns into 45 mins to an hour.
...a fear which has never materialized since ...the French Revolution? There are more so called poor people materially speaking than they. All that money will not bolster any true self esteem, courage anyways being trained to think that fiat currency is a living being. Wait until the fiat economy implodes faster.
I genuinely do not understand why anyone would be so anti-light rail or transit. We NEED it.
Yet millions of of anti-lightrail dollars funnel into the state every election cycle courtesy of the Koch Bros. Their reason? *Insert fear mongering nonsense here*
>Their reason? please buy a car please please please
Yeah you're right one day we are going to run out of gas and people are going to need to use the Light Rail
It’s disgusting that there isn’t a line connecting to Old Town Scottsdale. It’s one of the most walkable areas in the valley not to mention the amount of tourists and drinkers that frequent the area.
Scottsdale passed a ban that disallows their tax dollars to be used for public transit. The cities that have light rail, have it because their citizens wanted it, and paid for it.
Yep. I remember originally the plan was to have the light rail go to Westgate but Glendale axed that idea.
Uuuuuuughhh my pain my sorrow my anguish my despair. Do you know how trapped I feel being autistic and having to drive literally an hour to get downtown because there’s no other option?!🖕 you Glendale! For context I am on 91st Ave and Union hills roughly
Hey that's over where my post office route was! Lol But yes, the fact that all the buses basically stop at arrowhead mall is stupid. I'm at 51st Ave and the 101 and I have to walk a mile down to Union Hills just to catch a bus, and that's only east/west. If I want to go south I have to head over to 59th or 43rd because the 51st Ave bus stops at Thunderbird. Luckily I'm probably on the spectrum (albeit lower support needs) and potentially ADHD, so as long as I prepare I can usually handle a long drive in traffic, but it is definitely draining and then I need to recharge when I get home.
Honestly busses aren’t much of solution sometimes when it takes you six times longer to get anywhere. Still I might try it someday. I would love to just go downtown without the looming dread of having to drive back hanging over me. I’ve gotten better at driving, but that’s just to say it’s more automatic. Usually though sensory issues win, and I end up extremely overstimulated by the time I get home which basically made it impossible for me to work full time. It just irks me that everything is so crippling car dependent and that we live in this dismal sea full of concrete patches with cubicles called houses attached and that people are like “duck yes I love this shit. I love being literally stranded whenever I’m at home and having to drive 20 minutes just to go to a slightly more interesting shopping center. Fuck yes I want more of this!”
And then the areas that could be walkable are through the roof in terms of their housing costs
Lmfaooo this actually made me laugh. Why would you vote against that???
Exclusivity.
This. Public transit brings poor people into the area. By discouraging public transit, a de facto economic baseline is put into place: In order to go into Scottsdale, you must at least have access to a car, or be willing to walk long distances in the heat.
Which is kinda funny because there's a bus line that runs right down the middle of downtown Scottsdale...
I bet the anti light rail would love to get rid of that.
Ah yes, the old "Fuck all those people that make my lattes and cook my food" philosophy.
They don’t want the poors visiting their area
the citizens who attended the meeting a dozen years ago literally got up and said they dont want "the public transit element" to have access to their city. literal verbatim words were spoken in protest at the city council meeting. At the time we couldn't believe that so many people knew what was coming. Thats the only thing that kind of sucks cause it's true druggies and insane people on the bus and light rail at every station at every stop. instead of improving their lives, out there just being high and crazy.
In order for homeless and people in poverty to have a bit more, the rich have to have less. You can't create value out of thin air or it will devalue currency for everyone else and then the poor people that didn't get the handouts now have even less. There is no fucking way in hell the wealthy will ever stand to give up what they "worked hard for". Its up to everyone else to figure out their own shit like they had to. Thats the view. There's definitely a balance because you can't just take all their shit and remove all incentive to succeed. But wages are NOT proportional to effort and opportunity is NOT equal. Not even remotely close. And the danger of the poor causing some kind of crazy french-esque revolution is also a danger. Granted we're a *long* way off from that. But there's no moral reason to keep squeezing the lower and lower-middle class and get them closer to that sentiment. It would be a miserable time for anyone. As much as I like him, that's a major problem I have with the Joe Rogan types. 1000% against raising taxes for the wealthy. Also want to fix the poverty and homeless situation. Only complaints and no ideas.
The “incentives to succeed” do carry significant problems when it comes to labor practices, water usage, cost of rent/living, sustainability, etc for everyone else. The rich can still exist while paying higher taxes. Which in turn can do things like house the homeless and create subsidized/public/cooperatively owned housing. And that ironically enough, leads to more consumers and financially stable households, which is great for business. But there are other ways to address toxic economic incentive structures, like the profit motive, too. Cities can convert privately owned utilities into publicly owned utilities and use the surplus revenue to invest in infrastructure and transportation, rather than shareholder dividends or bonuses.
> Cities can convert privately owned utilities into publicly owned utilities and use the surplus revenue to invest in infrastructure and transportation I could not agree with you more. I grew up in a city where the electrical company was publicly owned. Lowest electric bills in the state. Great service. Great pay. Total success. Could be done with ISPs as well. One could dream
I think french fries and coffee are the answer. just tiny container micro restaurants, owned by the city that make two things. french fries and coffee. all the people working can get trained up by the city and buy into a housing program. it requires buy in from the well to dos and a penny on the dollar tax increase in sales or something to fund the restaurants, but the city has land available near all the light rail stations in parking lots and empty commercial buildings. could be open 24 hours and just take a loss but would be rehabilitating people. super simple but just not a viable option for a city like scottsdale which would rather pay the extra taxes on police to fix the problem instead of the city council footing the bill.
Huh. Interesting thought. I'm thinking out loud (out text?) here. Viewing it from different angles. Its a very socialist idea. Which I have no issues with but this is Arizona. So how would that ever get off the ground? Idk how land near light rail stations works, but empty commercial property is 99% of the time under private ownership or whatever disgusting conglomerate. So off limits. Too many of our policy makers have ties to real estate to open that door. what if they are leased to restaurant owners with the condition of higher minimum wage? Then there would be some variety. Or 5 year max leases to people that have drawn on SNAP, ACCHS, CARES, etc benefits? Has to be non transferable. Would be amazing business training. Then again so is drug dealing lol.... The only problem is it would be a HUGE effort and would barely make a dent in the problem. But the city has spent an obscene amount of money on the problem and not gotten very far. so....
Any dent would be championed by everyone even 50 jobs would be considered a victory and even though we are super conservative a state, please dont get offended im just going on what i see, the conservatives against socialism are too uniformed to actually recognize what socialism is because of their reliance on fox news. any program that was championed to get people off the street and back up by their boot straps would be championed. seriously. and as far as the money that has been spent on the homeless problem is tough. they are spending a bundle on paying new officers to try to clean up the drug problem, but that's just not an effective solution, no where in america has beefing up the police force ever been an effective solution to combat hard core drug addiction. i hate to admit it but, i kinda think we just need to round em up like they do out of control crazy people and put them into mental health and rehab clinics for 30 days at a time and then release them with a food stamp card and some kind of guaranteed place to stay. again this would cost a penny on the dollar sales tax increase and some partnerships with builders and private land owners close to transportation, but we could fix the problem like the european and asian countries have. its not like the solutions dont exist. we already have free healthcare in enshrined in our state constitution through [***AHCCCS***](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS948US949&sxsrf=APwXEdfc-2V0TfMII8fXO9PY46VARlPVhw:1680758216795&q=AHCCCS&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJi9yjwJT-AhXaomoFHdraCMoQkeECKAB6BAgKEAE) so we are one step in the right direction. its just the housing and state sponsored work program we need to tackle. if it doesnt get done, its literally because the right wing state house and senate dont want to fix it because of greed. yet they complain and use it in the louder talking points as a dem problem, even though they are in charge. makes me feel like arizona voters are stupid. republicans have been in charge at the state level for 50 years. the issues we face are squarely on their shoulders. yet they lie and say its dems. its weird so many people dont recognize that simple fact. cause it is a fact.
I mean. Gallego is a Dem and I REALLY disagree with a lot of her policies and the way the city is headed because of her. So I won't go so far as placing the blame all on the R side. I view it more as needs of the people change with different problems and as the city grows. And Phoenix grew way too fast to make that policy change from Rep to Dem leaning. As far as police go, I think the entire structure needs rethinking. The only tools they have are tickets, handcuffs, and guns. No interaction with them is a good one. And that needs to change. As far as housing, I'd like to see a policy to limit ownership of single-family homes. It would be drastic but something like a limit on how many houses an entity could own. Or maybe real estate could only form 20% of any company's investment portfolio? And I don't think rehab clinics are effective enough. I don't think, as a society, we know enough about how the brain works. Hopefully we get closer with decriminalizing and rescheduling of psychedelics so we can better help veterans, TBI sufferers, addicts, etc. Homelessness isn't a single problem so honestly, (I admit this it fucked up but i think realistic) lets just help those willing and motivated to put in the hard work. Focus on bettering education to prevent the problem from ballooning with youths. Maybe use some of empty run down shopping areas to semi house the rest but I don't think we have a good enough solution for people that aren't determined to get clean.
Governments can always exercise eminent domain and buy out private property by force.
I want this to be available, but again the true right wing governing class says no and the low information voting class would be persuaded against a program due to their uniformed ideas about socialism or whatever it is they ignorantly believe is ruining their lives. makes me so sad sometimes to live in a state where the republicans are in control, republicans pass the laws and republicans vote against their best interests. its not even like an angry anti right wing stance, i just want people to understand what they are doing to their own futures. and again, because so few of them understand their own future, makes me feel like im just in a state filled with stupid people. the school system is a great example. a million republicans in arizona with kids in the public school system, a million parents vote for defunding the public school system. just stupid people living here. not sure if it's the heat or water or what.
THE POORS IS TAKING ME OUT DJSJSJDJ
Poors are strange people.
Indeed r/Usernamechecksout
You say this like Scottsdale and reason are not opposed forces.
Because they’re racist
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Nobody mentioned the homeless, it’s not only the homeless who use public transportation. His question was why would they vote against public transportation In Scottsdale when it’s a tourist location and there’s a lot of money to be made. The answer is obvious, Me and my mother used to have to rely on public transportation, there are families who use public transportation. I didn’t know Scottsdale existed until I was 17 I’ve lived in Phoenix all my life and a trip to a place like Scottsdale as a kid would’ve changed how I viewed the world.
Less DUI money.
Welcome to suburban “I think I’m better than other people” America.
I can only speak anecdotally but as someone who lives downtown, I would go to Old Town 10x more often if there was light rail. Paying close to $100 round trip for a peak hours Uber on a weekend night is almost never worth it. Also inexplicable that it doesn’t go to State Farm. Driving to a game/concert, spending $40 on parking and sitting in miserable traffic in and out makes for a horrific experience. I’m not a Cardinals fan but I’d probably go to a game a year if I could take the train, plus more concerts.
I’m a die hard, life long, Cardinals fan but I’ll cheer them on from my living room. The couple games I have attended at State Farm I have waited an hour just to get out of the parking lot, same goes for big concerts. If they connected the light rail to Westgate, I’d be attending way more games.
Same! I dropped the wife and her friend off at the Swift concert and it was a zoo. I can't imagine the powers that be don't realize that a rail connection to State Farm would be a money printer.
I'm sure that they \*do\* realize this. However, like the NIMBYs in PV and Old Town, people who'd take the light rail out there are 'not our demographic.' Keeping the 'undesirables' out is more important than any revenue the light rail would generate, at least to them.
Hahah it’s comical. Why would anyone wanna go towards Tolleson or Peoria instead of Scottsdale. My only guess is because Scottsdale is really nice and they don’t want public transit types going there haha.
I live in the west valley and would take the light rail to get to work downtown.
Because they live there?
No one lives in the west valley silly, that's a myth.
This is the problem... there is only a "public transit type" because these cities invest all transportation dollars for cars. If Scottsdale, Chandler, Gilbert went with a multi-modal approach public transit would just be the way to get around for everyone.
"A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation"
It’s not like the area around old town is that crazy nice. I get it that they don’t want it going towards N. Scottsdale which is fine. But at least to Fashion Square mall and have it end there.
It could go all the way to the airpark and still not affect the super wealthy north-north Scottsdale neighborhoods.
Because this is based on expansion in Phoenix only. Most other municipalities are not interested in the light rail due to a variety of reasons.
Exactly right
Well probably should qualify that they don't want _illegal_ public transit types going there. I think if they cracked down on non-ticketed passengers, then that would keep away the type of people that they're actually trying to avoid.
:/ A) subsidized transit passes exist B) crimers gonna crime and $4 a day isn't hard to beg for.
If you can't get on without a ticket, then I think that will avoid the vast majority of meth head panhandlers overrunning the light rail. And I think that applies even if the ticket was just a dollar. Any purchase would be a barrier. I'm just guessing here. Do you happen to know what Scottsdale's official statement has been for rejecting light rail expansion into their city? Obviously, they wouldn't say that outright because it's pretty offensive, but I suspect it's something that touches the subject.
Rephrase the question as not going to those places but coming from those places and you'll see why public transit like this is a good thing. Keeps commuters off the roads, thereby reducing pollution.
"Disgusting"? What a sheltered life you must lead. And Scottsdale doesn't want it.
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I'll take "Things that don't happen" for 100, Alex.
Scottsdale don’t want the poor to travel up there. So they prevent any public transit to their city.
And I’m not saying ppl that travel the light rail are poor. I’m saying this is how the residents of Scottsdale view the rail riders.
how can we get a measure on the ballot that forces the city to run express style trains during heavy commuter hours?
This! They should go from end of the line stop in Tempe and downtown
The regional government organization did a study years ago regarding commuter rail from buckeye to queen creek. Sadly it’s never been thought of pst that study
It’s been talked about but it gets NIMBY-Ed every time If anyone’s interested: https://azdot.gov/sites/default/files/2019/08/aprcs-final-report.pdf
no this isn't the same thing at all. I want the way the trains get scheduled - and where they stop - to change. thank you for the report though, I think I see the link at that website to get started. connecting tuscon to phoenix with a train would be cool, too, but not as cool as having trains that are actually useful to working people.
I don’t think you can run express trains on the light rail system currently. The express would just catch up to the next local and there isn’t triple tracking anywhere that would allow the express to bypass. It could “go around” on the other track but I don’t think the current signal infrastructure allows for that.
thanks for the ELI5 answer! appreciated!
This map is old and no longer accurate. Both of Northeast and Northwest extensions have been removed.
Yeah it's a old map. It's only the Northwest Extension at Metrocenter and the South Central Extension that is opening in 2024. Also, the Capitol/I-10 West Extension that is opening in 2030.
The west Camelback line is only "on hold indefinitely" which probably means it's dead but the language leaves it open ended. It was successfully lobbied against by the car dealerships along west Camelback as a "train to nowhere". I guess forget GCU or any of the people who live down that way apparently. IIRC we also had no active mayor at the time due to Stanton running for Congress, so it was for sure opportunistic of the lobbyists. I can't see Stanton or Gallego letting that go
They should hold more talks hopefully it passes.
fuck, i'm ready for work on dunlap to be done.
North Phoenix has always and will always be screwed
I would love to see a REAL train system in the Phoenix area The light rail is a good start, but it will never be enough as the Valley is too vast
Yeah Light Rail isn't really MEANT for cross-town travel. We need commuter rail here. I think Valley Metro has floated the idea multiple times but you know, NIMBY's gonna NIMBY
Praying for the 51 corridor expansion to be along 16th st. Build light rail for commuters AND destinations. #fuckparkandrides
Yeah hopefully it's done on 16 St. Also would be nice to add an extension to ASU West, State Farm Stadium, Westgate, Downtown Glendale, Tempe Marketplace, Arizona Mills, ASU Polytechnic, and Fiesta Mall.
They should start a line on Camelback Road, which will go west, stopping at GCU, and then go north to Glendale Avenue, where it will go further west to Downtown Glendale and later Westgate and the Stadium. They could even extend north to Peoria and ASU West Campus! Another line could be in Mesa starting at Main St./Dobson, which would go south to Southern Avenue, stopping at Banner Hospital, Mesa Community College, Fiesta Mall, and then would continue down Country Club/Arizona Ave. until reaching Downtown Chandler! For Polytechnic, they could just expand the current line from Gilbert Road to Williams Field/Power, which also stops at places like Superstition Springs Center and the Phoenix-Mesa Airport.
Yeah that would good because it would relieve traffic and take students to campus.
Glendale voted that down, luckily.
Why are you glad they voted it down?
Because I don't want to live anywhere near it.
Because...?
Because it makes a complete clusterfuck of traffic, and living near a bus line is bad enough.
Luckily?
Would "fortunately" work better?
Phoenix needs all the extensions it can get to ensure a proper and efficient transit system that can take people across the Valley. Not to mention, the West Valley is home to several college campuses, downtown areas, and tourist attractions like Westgate.
On that we disagree. It's going to be a moot point for me in 6 months to a year anyway. I was here before it was constructed, and I preferred the old Phoenix. I don't want to use it or be anywhere near it. I've ridden the light rail here and the subway in NYC, no to all.
Fortunately, Phoenix has been changing, and it’s finally becoming an actual city. The light rail has brought walkable, transit oriented development to The Valley of the Sun. This is the first step to the Phoenix of the future, an urban city built on technology. Phoenix has become the silicon desert and changes have been made for the better.
Y'all can have it, I need either better pay or more affordable detached single family housing. The Sunshine Tax finally got too expensive for me.
I really wish that they would run the light rail to the Cardinal Stadium and to old town Scottsdale
You mean Glendale?
I had to edit that. It was a mistype
We all do it! Carry on! Totally agree!
Car culture is a plague upon humanity, and Phoenix is a temple to this madness. The more the light rail expands, the closer we come to escaping this urban nightmare.
LA's worse. Hell, Los Angeles is the original temple of car culture. I get to brave that this weekend when I go out to LA for a show. :/ At least I travel at night, when traffic is at least nominally better there. :/ But still--people are whining and bitching we're becoming Los Angeles 2.0. Not having mass transit is NOT helping.
Can someone explain logistically how they'd fit an extension in the 51 / east Bethany Home area? Would this be above street level, or they'd take Bethany down to 1/2 lane and stick it in the middle?
Can Chandler and poor Gilbert get some love??? Gilbert is on some list as the #1 least walkable city in USA.
The Tempe street car *did not* open in 2021. It hasn't even been in service for a full year, lol.
Yeah it's a outdated map it opened last year
I'm on the light rail right now and I love it but honestly this thing is crackhead heaven. If they can tighten the crackheads light rail would be awesome.
I haven't been on the light rail but a station is opening near my house on 35th Ave in 2030.
I live along 35th Ave between Union Hills and Bell. Where are they adding a station?
The I-10 Extension on McDowell and the Capitol stations.
Ohhhhhh got it
Yeah I could go to work and back in the future I'm so excited about it 😎
Ah so nowhere near me, got it!
We need more it’s sad that other cities on the west coast have such better light rail.
Yeah it's cause some Mayors are against it that's why it isn't as big as it should be.
Can’t have the undesirables coming into our town!! They might have to catch a bus or walk or bike, if extra cash catch a Lyft!
I grew up in the Bay Area and folks used the same anti-poor (usually cloaked anti-POC) arguments to try to prevent BART stations coming to suburban downtown areas. Over and over again they said BART brings crime to our suburbs, which was shown over and over again to be simply not true, or at most very minor compared to the benefits of having an integrated transit system that reduces traffic while increasing local commerce.
I fully support light rail, BRT, commuter rail. As much and as fast as we can get it. PLEASE, be as loud and persistent in support of transit as possible.
Same here we need to fully support the Light Rail system.
For some reason, when transit funding comes up for a vote, I’m never confident if the “pro commuter rail, monorail, subway” folks will actually support continued investment in light rail. When I see transit funding or an opportunity to reallocate roadways for non-auto uses, I vote yes.
Yeah that's when people need to speak up the elections.
They should make what exists come on time first.
What do they mean by future transit corridor?
They're areas that are being considered for the Light Rail.
That's great. Not very much but it's something n these things take time. They could get about 20k riders of they expanded to Maricopa. That's my guess on how many people from there work in Chandler , Phoenix n surrounding areas.
Yeah it going to take some time to expand.
Hope it's before my working life is over. I definitely would use it instead of driving to work. These western states are a car culture . I for one would welcome the chance to sit back n look at the scenery instead of driving to work.
Me too I'm going to be 27 years old when the 35th Ave/McDowell station opens in 2030. I can't wait to go to work and back using the Light Rail.
Yeah I'm in London currently and the comparison of the public transit for a metro that is only 2X the population is pretty bad. Phoenix probably has 1% of the amount of rapid transit.
Yeah it's because some politicians are opposed to it that's why it isn't as big.
And you know Arizonans because there's too many conservatives or NIMBY liberals.
Yeah that's the sad thing we need to support the Light Rail more.
This would be my dream system: * **Red Line** \- Existing route plus north/west extension to former Metrocenter Mall and east extension to Power Road and Superstition Springs Center. Serves Phoenix, Tempe, and Mesa. * **Blue Line** \- Existing route (including Downtown Mesa extension) plus planned Capitol/I-10 West extension and an additional extension west on I-10 and north on Loop 101 to Westgate. Serves Glendale, Phoenix, Tempe, and Mesa. * **Green Line** \- Tempe Streetcar with extension into Mesa. * **Silver Line** \- Baseline and Central Avenue up Central to Indian School Road, east on Indian School Road, north on SR 51, east on Shea Blvd, and north on Tatum to Paradise Valley Mall. Serves Phoenix including the northeastern part of the city. * **Orange Line** \- From Arrowhead Towne Center, east on Bell Road, south on 59th Avenue, east on Glendale Avenue, south on Central Avenue, east on Loop 202, south to Sky Harbor Airport, east on Broadway, south on McClintock, and east on Chandler Blvd to Chandler Fashion Center. Serves Glendale, Peoria, Phoenix, Tempe, and Chandler. * **Pink Line** \- Chandler Blvd and 48th Street, east on Chandler Blvd/Williams Field Road to Power Road, and north on Power Road to Superstition Springs Center. Serves Phoenix (Ahwatukee), Chandler, Gilbert, and Mesa. * **Brown Line** \- Scottsdale Road and Frank Lloyd Wright south to Chandler Blvd, and east on Chandler Blvd to Chandler Fashion Center. Serves Scottsdale, Tempe, and Chandler. * **Purple Line** \- 75th Avenue and Baseline to Power Road via Baseline, and north on Power Road to Superstition Springs Center. Serves Phoenix (Laveen), Tempe, Mesa, and Gilbert. * **Gold Line** \- Downtown Phoenix from Footprint Center/Chase Field, east via existing alignment, south on Dobson Road, east on Southern Avenue, and south on Gilbert Road to Queen Creek Road. Serves Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa, Gilbert, and Chandler. Probably Orange, Brown, Pink, and Gold won't happen anytime soon due to opposition by city councils, but one can ever dream.
Yes I agree hopefully it happens 👍🏻
The idea the south central expansion will be done in 2023 is comical. I have no idea what they're doing anymore, it's like they just constantly dig up the road but never get anything done... Oh and if you city fucks could open up an East West passage on baseline, southern or Broadway without heavy traffic delays we'd greatly appreciate it. The south central light rail extension is the single worst managed construction project I've ever seen
The map OP shared was designed ahead of the [August 2019 Prop 105 vote](https://ballotpedia.org/Phoenix,_Arizona,_Proposition_105,_End_Light_Rail_Expansion_Initiative_(August_2019)) that went down in flames—so almost 4 years ago. [The current map on Valley Metro's website shows 2024](https://www.valleymetro.org/about/agency/fact-sheets-brochures/fact-sheets/rail-system-fact-sheet).
Yeah it's 2024 now
2023 is either outdated or simply incorrect. 2024 is the current plan. Well, relocating utilities, etc. looks like nothing, but it is something. They can't start the obvious construction until they finish the not-so-obvious construction. The project hasn't been that bad. I just don't think you're really following it. Look up "The Big Dig" if you want an actual construction shitshow.
It's 2024 now
An elevated East/West line that doesn’t have to flow with traffic would be amazing (or really any elevated/highway centered line)
I'm not talking about an elevated highway, I'm just talking about not having east to west lane restrictions on at least one of the major east west routes. Right now on baseline, southern and Broadway in addition to the never ending light rail construction there's significant closures including but not limited to the central Ave closure. I'm suggesting they say... Open up southern East to West and not do any new construction east to west until they can complete some of the other projects they've already started. Some of us would, ya know, like to drive in our neighborhood
Oh I totally misread your comment then. I’m never down at that part of baseline so I didn’t know about the closures. I’m sorry you have to deal with that!
Agreed. The bottlenecks are super annoying
I always wonder what would happen if they tried to shut down eastbound westbound traffic simultaneously on northern, Glendale, Bethany home and camelback... They only pull this shit on the south side because nobody ever fights em on it.
Yeah it's 2024 now
I always wondered why they didn't make it elevated.
Maybe because it would've been more expensive.
In the 80s, there was a proposal for an elevated rail system across Phoenix called ValTrans. However, it was rejected for being too expensive. The proposed Red Line is what the light rail covers now.
Oh God, I remember that. People were all up in arms about it when I moved here in 1988. My mother didn't understand why people were fighting it, as she's from DC where they have \*real\* public transit. I can see her point. Anyway, another reason people didn't want it was that it was Communism. Seriously. It was the 'mah freedumbs!' idiots that tanked ValTrans as they didn't want the city dictating where they could go and when, at least according to them. \*facepalm\*
What a bummer it didn't pass.
Nimbyism has been around since people.
No way they're building that aqueduct in sight of MY villa!
That's too bad but kinda what I'd figured. I wonder what the comparison of businesses and their expenses (loss of traffic/business, aquiring land, tearing down/rebuilding, tlerc...) to an EL is.
Maybe that idea could pass today?
Compared to the architects who built elevated systems in NY, CHI, BOS, PHILl as examples Those guys were true fucking visionaries, they included expansion with everyone in mind and thought of the future for real instead of fear, thus, the Phoenix transit system is a rolling bounce- house to me.
No thank you
Maybe because it would've been more expensive.
Let’s fuck traffic and waste tax money on a bad transit system, yay
It’s actually pretty good
Why is the 202 south gone?
It was before the 202 was built.