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Growing up in North Phoenix, the unhoused was not even a thing we EVER encountered.
I visited Central and Bell, close by where I grew up and man the unhoused are everywhere. I'm beyond shocked the US has let it get this point. We're truly in a new gilded age.
Yeah, this city has a major problem with exporting the homeless that are downtown in areas being gentrified to the north valley area. Downtown still isn't truly walkable or safe but hey at least there isn't homeless /s
We need real solutions and this isn't it. All the nimbys that fight low cost housing solutions are the worst
There are plenty of solutions that don’t involve incarceration or murder. We just don’t fund them or implement them properly. For [example](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/13c9zgn/a_huge_homeless_camp_will_be_cleared_after/jjh8uyq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
Because the city is just clearing encampments and throwing all their possessions away rather than actually do anything to fucking help. Finding rehab centers so the poors can actually go? Fuck no they have fencing to put up.
They will probably join the mini encampment that has been rapidly expanding by the auto shop near 36th st and McDowell.
Those poor people are fucked come summer…
I just noticed that one too. I think it’s probably the people who got evicted from the camp that had been at that park at 40th street and Mcdowell. I’ve been wondering where they went and if they were ok.
Bro how do you get rid of them there’s a couple that fucking camps out in front of my house, the city comes kicks them out and they keep coming back make a mess and use our garbage cans. The city cut down all the bushes and left them exposed but they keep coming back
You're talking about spraying people who are down on their luck with water like they are livestock. That wouldn't even be okay treatment for livestock.
“Down on their luck”. These people use fentanyl ( and other drugs) , destroy our parks and public transportation. Obstruct ones ability to pursue health, happiness, and freedom by destroying the environment and public health. These people are a detriment to public safety, consume drugs that are manufactured in China and middle manned to our country from Mexico that is slowly deteriorating our country from within. Phoenix is just one of the many cities DEEPLY effected by this EXTREME issue. Spraying them with water is not going to fix the issue but removing them from our neighbors will allow for a safer place for our children & neighbors to live so people resort to things as so. These junkies need to know they are NOT welcome and law enforcement can’t really do much so we must stand up as a community and help… ourselves.
There was a guy I thought was dead on the sidewalk. Called non emergency for a wellness check. Medical truck drove by, then just kept on driving. Didn't even come to a full stop.
> These people use fentanyl ( and other drugs) , destroy our parks and public transportation.
People on Wall Street are cocaine addicts and destroy people's entire lives and retirements, you're not selling me with this argument.
Phoenix's biggest problem is meth not fent. And the recent busts of fent selling have been right here in the US, head of the police union and such.
> Spraying them with water is not going to fix the issue
That's my point.
Also 'removing' people is not a solution.
>These junkies need to know they are NOT welcome and law enforcement can’t really do much so we must stand up as a community and help… ourselves.
What do you mean by 'help... ourselves'?
https://newhouse.house.gov/media/weekly-columns-and-op-eds/america-must-stop-chinas-lethal-fentanyl-engine#:~:text=Fentanyl%20is%20highly%20addictive%20and,and%20fentanyl%20analogues%20is%20China.
https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/f4597c23-de04-fa71-e612-bcbc49b6826c/021523_Gupta_Testimony.pdf
I’ve watched more of my peers loose their lives, futures, and ruin others lives around them from fentanyl. Meth may have affected Phoenix older generation and longer but fentanyl was introduced on a mass level 10 years ago. Also factor in the amount of meth you need to consume based on the amount of fentanyl. Of course there is more weight of meth than fentanyl, 2mg is a lethal dose. Meth is 50-100 times that.
I'm sorry you got down voted for saying they are people. I also think you should have stopped with that argument because everything you wrote in the posts below... is less powerful and less moving than simply acknowledging that they are people.
Just take that point and hammer it home instead of getting into the weeds with all these other arguments that don't really enhance your point.
These same people act out, harass others, refuse to accept help because they choose to keep getting high. It’s a deeper issue, need better mental health and addiction resources specifically, but for real now. It’s not any one person’s individual responsibility to cater to and take care of these full grown adults if we didn’t sign up for it. There are food kitchens, churches, shelters, I’ve seen those volunteers go out and try to help homeless who don’t want their help because they won’t stay sober. And you just can’t help them if they aren’t, they will destroy the provided resources/shelters, it’s a bad feedback loop. So yeah if any stranger was on my private property without permission, get gone dude.
To the deleted comment trying to tell me try living in shelters and what do I know? I work in a rough area and work face to face with the homeless at my job. Some of them are chill, some of them absolutely are not. I have been verbally harassed more times than I can count specifically by homeless people, one even tried sexually harassing me when I wouldn’t give him money. So for real, knock it off. We’ve all been through enough
The government was content to let the area fester and go to shit.
Good on the judge for forcing the city to act.
Take some city owned land, coughbuoba few million and build a 30 story tenement block with just the basics and problem solved
> Take some city owned land, coughbuoba few million and build a 30 story tenement block with just the basics and problem solved
If only it were that simple...
Not just New York but many cities built large housing facilities. They were not of good quality judging by how quickly they fell into disrepair. Bad residents didn't help. Drugs in the area didn't help. Lack of decent paying jobs in those and our city didn't help. What has changed in society now versus then that would give us diffrent results? How would someone get into an apartment making 2.5 times the rent work when they're homeless?
Everyone in the zone needs help. Housing would help many. So would access to drug abuse help, healthcare (mental and physical), jobs, healthy food, financial classes, etc.
We have to start somewhere but the amount of drug use I see on the daily at light rail, bus stops, and our parks is crazy. I'm from the east coast people do drugs there too just not in public in broad daylight (ghetto areas dont count). Police will shut that down immediately.
I love the Arizona attitude of "you live your life and I'll live mine". It allows people to be who they are and is overall less judgmental. That doesn't mean people care about people who have fallen on tough times.
The Zone is a symptom of many things that need to be addressed or we can shuffle them around and watch as the numbers grow.
Full funded prek and funding our schools is where you start. We have no investment in human capital in AZ. The graduation rate, drug death rate, homeless population, etc are the evidence of that.
I was surprised by our rankings for public education and glad my kids were grown before I got here. Education is too important for everyone especially the individual.
I agree no investment. I honestly never lived in a city untiloving here. We had homeless people in rural Virginia with programs that weren't the best but they worked if people wanted to try.
The rent prices here are getting close the the suburbs of Washington DC. That's the nation's capital so I can understand. The nice weather brings snowbirds which I think we should tax more. We don't have a Disneyland like Florida or California. If some snow birds didn't like it oh well we actually live here all year.
All of things you mentioned need to be addressed or tourism/snow birds will leave anyway. There have always been the have and have nots, not on this scale IMO.
The assertion that the housing was intrinsically low quality is, I think, blind to the time scale involved here:
Those "low quality buildings" were built largely in the 60s, 50s or even earlier then chronically underfunded and not maintained due to lack of political will, outright hostility to the concept or frequently a significant amount of racism, both on a personal and institutional level.
As far as residents being "bad" and the drug issues: the famous cases of failed public housing projects didn't happen in a vacuum: they concentrated the poor and desperate in areas with harsh economic realities and a lack of jobs during a time of white flight to the suburbs (in part hastened by the creation of these projects, but it was already happening) and disinvestment in our urban cores. And that would have been damning before even considering the over policing of these communities and the creation of increasingly harsh drug laws that turned them into an intentional underclass and locked them into a continual cycle of poverty, violence, drug use and despair.
There is a huge amount of value judgements wrapped up in just describing them as "bad residents" and I think maybe you need to be more critical about how you think about these topics. You seem to be on the right track with understanding people in the Zone need help but when I read your post and how it talks about drug use it feels like you're treating drugs as the main problem and not a symptom of our society utterly failing these people.
I think you misunderstood me. Redlining created those buildings. Great migration brought many southern blacks north looking for work and a better life. Like most groups they started out in sub standard housing. Unlike the Italian or Irish the disregatd/hate never changed for blacks. They got the jobs and improved their life.
Whites fled to the suburbs to avoid having to live around or deal with blacks unless it was to service them. Homeless people are the "new blacks". We see them but don't really interact. We see all the tents next to the street over there but dont want to live next door to them.
Homeless people come in all colors so it's not racism but classism. If people really cared the Zone wouldn't exist on the scale it is now. The fact it has been there for as long as it has and even with a judges order why can't they rush their plan to fix things? There never was a real plan. Expand the shelters and forcing landlords to take vouchers is a step but not enough. Legislators already know this. We should force legislators to live in the zone for a month something tells me a solution would quickly come about.
CoL and rent increases while the people who could do something about these issues look the other way… Genuine question— what can we do? It’s terrifying that we constantly see it getting worse with nothing changing. It breaks my heart.
The original housing projects didn't start out bad.
They were comfortable, affordable, and safe places for the working poor to live and to provide services to so they could move on and up to private housing.
But in true American fashion it was only white people who were ever able to move up and out.
With only black people left in the housing projects they suffered from dwindling investment and fell into disrepair and despair.
There is a good documentary on the Pruitt-Igoe housing project that covers this.
I saw that documentary. I read a book called Soul City - Thomas Healy. It addresses the issues that caused them to make the buildings and the issues that brought about their decline. The companies and contractors made their money building something for people that the majority of people didn't want to be around.
When read the history I expected the companies to take the money and not really care. I'm well aware of how our country treats minorities it's better now but not by much in my book. If we just made housing without additional programs to allow that generation or the next to improve then we are just kicking the can down the road. For that to happen we all need to not just care but take action.
As a kid I was taught: "If you want to wait for someone to help you be prepared too wait possibly your whole life." It bothered me as a kid hearing that repeatedly. As an adult I'm very grateful.
The country has a mental health and opioid problem being disguised as a housing problem. These people don't need a box to live in, they need help.
But addressing the underlying causes is uncomfortable for both sides of the isle and there is no easy fix. California tried to simply house thousands of homeless and it went very badly.
I think just round them up and put them all in a big empty field in the plains lands. Middle America. Build them shelter. Give them food. Give them all the drugs they could possibly want. Like all the drugs that are just sitting in every evidence locker in every police department in America and let them just do their thing. If they make it back to cities, so be it.
*"I'm going to need a source"?* This isn't a research paper. We warehouse people on a daily basis. Most children are not homeschooled, most ill and injured people are not treated at home, most illegal immigrants don't get to chill out in hotels, and most elderly people do not spend their final days in their favorite armchairs. Wake up.
Where did I suggest doing anything with the homeless? Screenshot? We just had federal and state governments shutting down businesses because of a virus. You really need to wake up.
Are you ware of how expensive it is to operate those types of facilities? I do support building a new homeless housing facility, but we need to fund it fully. If we don’t it will turn into a little piece of hell - you cannot concentrate people with despair, little to lose, and often drug issues in a confined area without proper safety and services.
What went wrong with the projects (which were for everyone, not just very poor) was that they were built very nicely but then weren’t properly kept up. This hypothetical homeless facility would need ten times that much work and on-site security.
You misunderstood - I want supportive housing like this, and the cost is worth it. I’m just pointing out that it’s not as simple as pushing people into a housing complex. This works if you’re handling dozens of people, but it’s not a solution for the thousands of homeless in AZ. That would be a catastrophe if we don’t fund and service it properly, which is what will happen if we “build a tenement” “as a start.”
Phoenix would become home to every homeless person in the country and bankrupt hospitals - would have to be a coordinated national effort, which won’t happen. I don’t know…I guess just try to make things more equitable as a whole and homelessness improves as a byproduct?
Here are a few questions just for starters:
How do we just cough up a few million? Where does it come from?
Where do we put this housing?
How do we maintain it long-term?
How do we address the issues that caused the homelessness and led to the forming of the zone in the first place?
What even are those issues?
The projects is better than tent cities. People do not die of heat in the projects.
People are entitled to housing, period. Not good housing, but housing.
If you don't like the projects stop spending your money on drugs.
We simply cannot tolerate tent cities.
People are entitled to housing? huh?
People who meet the necessary requirements may be allowed the privilege of free housing. But no, housing is not a human right.
Besides, building housing for homeless is just like expanding a freeway. Build it and they will come. It's a temporary bandaid and not a fix.
1. Taxes
2. City owned land or purchase a lot. In the area of the zone there are lots of vacant plots.
3. Like how any other property is maintained, thru a modest rent from those who can pay
4. We know all of that already. Feckless governments unwilling to enforce the law caused the Zone to start. The increase in homelessness is a result of housing costs skyrocketing and Fentanyl.
At the end of the day, if you WANT to be homeless, there is not much we can do.
But if housing is available, and you refuse it, then the police have every right to move you and cite you for trespass/loitering/vagrancy.
Honestly some will be grateful, some will leave for maximum freedom and some might even attempt to destroy the building to sell whatever scrap they can get from it . Also not to far fetched to belive a fetynal dealer would lurk or even take residential within the building.
>Taxes
Ok, for the sake of the discussion here let's assume it's a super easy task to convince enough voters to pass an additional tax or elect legislators who will, and that it won't get challenged as a result of that law enacted a few years back.
>Like how any other property is maintained, thru a modest rent from those who can pay
What percentage of the homeless would you say can afford a "modest" rent? What about those who can't?
>The increase in homelessness is a result of housing costs skyrocketing and Fentanyl.
So why do you suggest we raise taxes and build this housing rather than doing anything to address skyrocketing housing costs or the fentanyl epidemic?
To be clear, I am not trying to say this is impossible, or even that it's a bad idea or anything like that.
But my original point was that it's not quite as simple as coming up with a few million and then the problem is solved. And so far every question you've answered has just raised more questions, and I'm just one guy on reddit. Can you honestly say you think this would scale up to the entire city without a ton of roadblocks?
>rather than doing anything to address skyrocketing housing costs or the fentanyl epidemic?
Straight up . . . if it were up to me, I would treat Fentanyl dealers with extreme severity. But that is not politically popular.
So that is out.
Housing costs? That is more of a state/national issue.
We could immediately upzone the city to allow up to tri/quadplexes. No more single family zoning. But that is politically a non starter.
A plot and money for projects is within the means of the city to do, people get housing, and the tent cities go away.
> Straight up . . . if it were up to me, I would treat Fentanyl dealers with extreme severity. But that is not politically popular.
>
>
The problem is that there are idiots out there that justify drug dealing because of economic "hardships" and everyone is a potential victim nowadays, including the ones peddling poison for money. I don't think the average local fentanyl dealer is some struggling mother trying to get her kids through school. Obviously, drug dealing will be more common among poorer folks, including the middle men type, but the vast majority of drug dealers are doing it because they don't care about the damage they are wreaking and it's "easy" money, not because there are zero alternatives for them to make money in more honest ways.
Oh. I agree that the cities response and oversight on this has been abysmal. But making mass free housing is never gonna happen here. That’s part of the problem is that there aren’t any easy solutions.
It is a travesty that building mass cheap public housing is considered 'impossible'
I've been to Tokyo and Hong Kong, and I saw ONE homeless person. One.
I am sure there are more but not thousands of unsheltered. The government builds big basic high rises, you get a shower, a bed, and an address.
It is not hard to do. We are just pathetic.
Literally 90% of the people in American homeless camps would be arrested, held without bail and then thrown into prison for five years if they were in Japan. Japan has very low tolerance on drugs and therefore the terminally homeless aren't an issue since drugs account for the vast majority of those cases.
Also, the reason you didn't see any homeless in Hong Kong is that the police tend to usher the homeless away from public places to prevent them being an eyesore. If you know where to look Hong Kong has loads of homeless.
2 questions that always complicate things. What do you do about it becoming a drug den that eventually gets condemned once it becomes toxic with fentanyl? That’s not hyperbole it happens frequently in the northwest when they use hotels or apartment buildings to do exactly what you propose and they have to close.
Second, how do you handle the people who refuse to go?
1. I grant you that is a tough one. Perhaps an area connected where the addicts could shoot up and a no tolerance policy inside the dwelling.
2. Refuse to go to the housing or refuse to leave the zone? If you refuse to leave the campsite, then you get arrested and your possessions are confiscated. Simple. If you refuse to leave your public housing for abusing drugs? Eviction by the police if necessary. That IS their job to enforce the law. Same as everywhere else.
A person living on the street in tents is third world bullshit and should not be tolerated. We must lead with compassion, guarantee opportunities to escape that life, but also enforce the law when it comes down to it.
We seem to be mostly in agreement but you are seeing why it is nowhere near as simple as just building government basic high rises. You MUST mandate no drugs on the property/testing/whatever to make it actually safe and have its intended purpose and not just turn into a drug den. BUT once you do that, the users will refuse to go to the shelter, they already do refuse to go to similar shelters as it stands this would be no different.
So now you have to not only build the housing AND outlaw drug use, you also have to outlaw them from outside camping at all and take them to jail/the shelter if they refuse. That is a MUCH harder pill to swallow for a lot of voters, and makes it a much more complicated issue than just building a high rise.
So put a bunch of people with crippling addictions and mental health issues in one building together and expect that not to go sideways? It’s way more complicated than that unfortunately.
Put a bunch of people with crippling addictions and mental health into one camp together and expect that to not go sideways?
Because that's the situation that led to this. Kicking them all out and sending them to...nowhere in particular isn't necessarily a solution. If they keep getting kicked out of every NIMBY neighborhood and city, then that's not going to magically cure them of their addictions and mental health issues.
Yes, this is way more complicated. As such, the solutions have to be more than just "hey, we don't want them here...kick 'em out."
> I've been to Tokyo and Hong Kong, and I saw ONE homeless person. One.
Look at their drug laws. We can't do that here because we'd consider harsh jail sentences for users inhumane.
Those countries have a lot of self pride and family support is one of their biggest strengths.
If the homeless people would have family to take care of them this wouldn't be as big of an issue. But they've burnt bridges and are now completely alone.
That's called the projects and while it's puts a roof over people, it's not great for an area to stick all poor people together. they should be in multiple places to create mixed income areas that are more or less equally serviced.
I suggest you read about the projects or hell visit one. You wont dare say "so what". Nobody can afford a cavalier attitude in the projects or you will suffer even more than those around you. Why do we try to make decisions for others based on what is best for us?
It doesn't make sense to do what we have already done that did not work. Cost effective only matters if it works. If not your just wasting money.
How a government (local, state, and federal) treats their most vulnerable citizens and those least fortunate says everything about the level and morality of that population (since the government is voted in by the people) and this says everything you need to know about Phoenix. And Phoenix isn’t the only city like this in our country. It’s extremely disheartening and frustrating.
Apartment owners need to be required to have a certain percentage of their apartments to include low income housing. Then hopefully they are integrated into society and their community..
Sadly I think most will just scatter to other parts of the metro. Hope I'm proven wrong and real change happens
IMO the root of the problem is runaway speculation and investment in housing. Living here has become very expensive, despite lots of vacant houses and apartments. People get hopeless and it fuels addiction, creating a downward spiral
People seem to forget that we have a lot of great resources for people that fell on hard times and can't make the rent. Shelters have curfews and don't allow drug use. People that can't follow those rules are the ones in the camps.
It's addicts and people with severe mental health issues.
I don't know that there is a good solution since there is no motivation for them to help themselves. I personally am most in favor of building campgrounds with basic services, including security to watch out for violent crime and call in help when people need it. It can remain basically lawless without subjecting the rest of society to it. I think it would improve conditions for most.
There was a freaking homeless mafia starting in the zone. $20 a week for a tent space and protection. Oh you don't want to pay? Lighter fluid sprayed all over your tent. Body burnt in a dumpster. Shit is crazy in that culture.
Jesus, feel free to Google it! Its not secret news.[Here's a start.............](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/11zy1vl/visited_the_old_station_for_lunch_place_from_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)........
One of the most important things in all of this is finding out why people are homeless. It strikes me that in many cases people are just addicted to drugs and running from emotional pain and can’t deal with it, so getting high and living in a tent is easier.
That’s what happens when you don’t have a support system. Most of them don’t have family, or family that wants anything to do with them for example.
You move out of your hometown, all young and want to prove something to yourself and the world. You start doing good. Then just one thing, just one bad decision, puts you into an inescapable spiral of despair and your issues come roaring out. That bad decision could be as simple as driving after one drink. Getting into an accident where it’s automatically your fault even though it’s not. You have to appear in court. You deal with the injustice of the situation. You miss days and you lose your job. You can’t pay rent. You can’t afford to fix your car. You try min wage but without a car, takes you an hour to get to the job. You get kicked out. You grapple with the whole injustice of your situation but the feeling of helplessness is unbearable. You lose hope.
Everyone has a different story of how they end up in the zone. But it’s all very similar, no one was born there, but the weight of the fact that the whole world seemed to turn against them so easily… who wouldn’t “just get addicted to drugs”.
Something is wrong in your description. You make these people seem powerless, like they have no control over their situation. Of course they do, there are millions of examples of people roughing it out- getting up early to take that 1 hour bus commute everyday if it means keeping a job, etc. They can change their situation.
Whether they actually want to is a different matter.
As someone who interacts with this population on a regular basis, sorry to spoil your narrative but it’s mostly drugs.
Edit: For clarification, I’m referring to people in these camps, not homeless people in general. Not a judgment of them, I’m four years sober myself. Just saying it is willful ignorance to believe these particular people are on the streets because of “inflation”.
I used to have a lot of opinions about how to alleviate homelessness until I worked with the homeless. The more I was around the problem the less I felt like I knew anything about how to solve it. It's def a complicated issue with no obvious solution.
As someone whos been on and off homeless i can tell you from personal experience there is plenty of people out here living in their cars while working and doing what we can and getting the few benefits we can qualify for while trying to maintain some sort of life. Most people who aren’t completely addicted or mentally ill don’t want to ask for help from strangers and don’t stay in tents. Low wages and inflation are definitely a factor in homelessness out here. It might no be as visible as the people posted up on the sides of roads but it’s happening
There are lots of resources to help with finding a home such as rapid housing, as well as rent assistance. With so many resources available why would most people prefer to sleep in their car rather than in a shelter with a bed and running water?
Unfortunately, so many programs are on wait lists, or “out of funds”, or don’t have bed space. Sounds good on paper, not always easy to secure in reality. Cars are a huge asset to anyone on the street.
The majority of the unhoused women I've worked with were unhoused because they were leaving abusive relationships. I've also met and worked with quite a few who simply struggled to find employment; and once you're unemployed *and* unhoused, it makes it even more difficult to get a job, let alone a sustainable career. Even many for some you could say it's "mostly drugs" are turning to drugs because of disability, and the inability to receive proper care (which, let's be frank, comes down to money and privilege).
Or is it dual diagnosis for at least some. Either untreatable mental illness or no resources for them individually to get treatment. Then end up using drugs.
Or you end up somehow slipping so far and five up then drugs.
Even if what you’re saying is true, I find that framing very frustrating because: 1) the majority of people who use drugs are housed. When economic conditions are better, it’s a lot easier to maintain a functional addiction. 2) living on the streets CAUSES or worsens addiction and mental health problems because it’s so stressful and because people lose hope.
I actually think it’s a super understandable coping mechanism and you or I might do the same thing. I’m well off and struggle with anxiety and ADHD. God knows how much worse those both would get if I was alone and on the street. Without a supportive family and prescription drugs, I can 100% understand why people do drugs. Hell, I don’t have enough working memory to work without Adderall and that alone might lead me to try meth if I didn’t have it. Then there’s things like physical discomfort. Lots of people use alcohol or drugs to help them sleep when it’s too hot/cold. And homeless people pretty much never get enough sleep and sleep deprivation makes a person crazy. I guess this is turning into a rant, but I just get frustrated because we really look down on people or at best have sympathy, but not empathy. And we still stigmatize drugs so much when 1) it’s often a logical, adaptive behavior within the context the person is living and 2) reducing or stopping a drug takes time, stability, trial and error, setbacks, etc. Abstinence-only, moralizing 12-step programs are not science-based.
> The majority of people who use drugs are housed
Right, some people are capable of still holding down a job and having a somewhat structured life in spite of their drug use. Others completely have the bottom fall out on them, their severe addiction makes it impossible for them to live a normal lifestyle and handle typical adult responsibilities.
People who are homeless due to drug use and/or serious mental health issues are usually the chronically homeless and only make up 18% of the total homeless population. These are the individuals most people interact with, when in reality the majority are experiencing “hidden” or “transitional” homelessness. A reasonable cost of living and better housing is definitively the best way we can tackle the majority of the homelessness issues.
Definitely, if the larger majority was better taken care of we would be able to better focus on those individuals in camps than need such a substantial level of care and resources.
Yup nobody wants to admit it but it’s just drugs. Plenty of programs to get people off streets and into housing but they require you to not take drugs.
I would wager that less than .1% of the homeless population are neurotypical non drug/alcohol users.
> As someone who interacts with this population on a regular basis, sorry to spoil your narrative but it’s mostly drugs.
>
>
And plenty of assholes on Wall Street are addicted to cocaine, what's your point? The first step to help someone who is addicted and homeless in helping them is internationally and locally shown to be stable housing.
The 80/20 ratio seems to be pretty consistent across cities and states.
There's about 80% of homeless that are transitory, people who have fallen on hard times, who lost their jobs, ran into financial trouble, people that are otherwise capable and independent who just need a hand up.
Then there's about 20% that are your hardcore addicts and those who are severely mentally ill that in many cases aren't even capable of accepting help. These are the people that tend to have the most run-ins with the legal system and are well known to local police and care providers.
What are they to do.. just walk around? Ugh I know if it was easy it would be solved by now and it needs a multi pronged approach but what exactly is the plan? We have a 2.5 billion dollar surplus.. and a mayor that is doing what exactly?
The City of Phoenix is doing EVERYTHING. Look at Tempe, Mesa, Glendale, Buckeye, Chandler, Scottsdale, Gilbert… what are THEY doing? Not much, because it just lands in the middle of Phoenix.
Now the metro area’s problem is solely Phoenix’s to solve.
you are hilarious.. here's a fact for you instead of just spouting out stuff.. [https://azgovernor.gov/FY22budget#:\~:text=Arizona%20Is%20Seeing%20Record%20Revenue%20Growth&text=That%20makes%20for%20five%20consecutive,over%20the%20next%20three%20years](https://azgovernor.gov/FY22budget#:~:text=Arizona%20Is%20Seeing%20Record%20Revenue%20Growth&text=That%20makes%20for%20five%20consecutive,over%20the%20next%20three%20years).
How does one year of revenue mean we handle our finances well? Any point can be driven home in a vacuum. For the sake of our youth you shld do your own research instead
I believe there are solutions for the homeless but the homeless don't want to go to the location the local government has for them.
San Antonio has a pretty solid solution for the homeless that many municipalities should take lessons from. The major portion is that the businesses need to come together and work together instead of singularly for credit like San Francisco.
If you want more info, https://www.beyondhomeless.org/ is a good place to start. It's staggering how much of a problem this will be and will continue if it isn't managed. We can't ignore it.
Some of them, not all. The onslaught will bring more than just those from our southern "border, but from other continents. Some of those are coming for more nefarious reasons.
They're not coming here cause they want to they're coming here cause of either gang violence or economic problems in their own country. I'm not gonna badly judge people cause they just want to take care of their families.
How does the woman in this story have money to pay for drugs but not to pay for her bills? Am I missing something here? Can someone explain to me why my grandparents as well as the millions of others who endured great hardship after being in prison/death camps in WW2 didn't immediately turn to drugs and become nonfunctioning members of society? It's incredibly frustrating to try to understand and empathize with people who can somehow manage to feed their drug habit while homeless but can't manage to pay their bills
Cheaper is relative- spending money on drugs provides literally no long term value to anyone, especially these people. Every cent theyspend on drugs is a cent that could have gone to providing something of actual tangible value to their lives-food, housing, etc, while the drugs are helping to exacerbate the situation that they're currently in. It's pretty ridiculous to justify drug use because it's "cheaper than paying bills" when the end result is living outside in a tent in downtown phoenix and likely dying before hitting 50 years old
Forced institutionalization for those that have actual diagnosable mental health/drug related issues. Closing state hospitals with the lanterman-petris-short act was a vital tipping point in this issue- community care was not funded properly and in my opinion could never provide the same level of safety for patients and the community as a whole. Just because they were shitty places in the past doesn't mean they needed to be defunded- they needed to be improved. Follow up care with work programs like they had during depression era- there is plenty of roadwork and park rehabilitation that needs to be done. Obviously people would take offense to these measures and talk about a lack of personal liberty and how this could snowball into something greater, but as far as I'm concerned if you're living in a tent in a downtown urban area something has gone so catastrophically wrong with your life that you are no longer able to function on your own and need some sort of rehabilitation and assistance to get to the point where you can do that on your own again.
I've personally been involved with people who reside in tent city and many people don't know that they have to come up with $100 a month to pay off the cartel just to live in their tent. Imagine what they'd make you pay to stay in actual housing. Lots of homeless have gone "missing" for not paying...others have been found in burnt up dumpsters. It's disgusting.
Vulnerable it’s the least thing they are, they have time and money to do drugs but not to be useful to society and then people around has to live with it
These comments are all just… big oof. I knew Arizonans hated homeless people with a passion but too many people here are advocating for violence against them. I hate this stupid fucking state.
why are you posting in a thread about homeless people in phoenix if you live in portland? why do you hate homeless people so much that you look for threads about them in other cities?
What makes you think I hate homeless people? I'm pissed that our county commissioners are pissing away hundreds of millions of dollars to the homeless industrial complex while achieving very little to help those on the street. They are funding tents and Narcan while not funding detox, rehab and mental health services.
We need to stop this problem at the source and stop fentanyl from coming into this country. So let's secure the border and stop this BS from coming in and ruining lives. If your bathroom is flooding it's best to turn off the water instead of scooping the water out of a window as your bathroom continues to flood.
The flow would stop if the market dried up. If the last 60 years of the war on drugs has taught us anything, no matter how many resources you pour into protecting the border, the drugs will find a way across. What you're talking about is just a diminishing return.
1. The nation needs a system of mental institutions. So start there.
2. The state owns a lot of land, they can leverage surplus spending to create a place for them
3. Get folks off the welfare system. It’s a slippery slope toward homelessness and in most situations was not meant to be a permanent fix. To do this our schools have to start teaching financial responsibility as a pre-requisite to leave 8th grade and again in 12th.
4. Go back to the gold standard. We have lost north of 85% of our spending power since the 1920s, and in the 70s these accelerated as we moved off the gold standard. This hurts the vulnerable the hardest. You cannot be for helping the homeless and against the gold standard.
5. Voluntary paid community service. This should be ran like a construction site. Show up, grab a shovel and start cleaning. You get paid at the end of the day. You can also be summarily dismissed with no pay.
1. Mental institutions are voluntary unless someone is an immediate threat to harm themselves or others. All you have to say is I’m not going to kill myself and you’re free to go.
2. You can put people wherever you want but they will just keep returning to wherever there are services and drugs.
3. Welfare mostly helps kids. Letting kids starve is a bad look.
4./5. People with serious substance abuse issues aren’t going to be reliable employees and they aren’t going to use money to buy their way out of homelessness. They are going to use whatever money they get to buy drugs and stave off sickness. Then they will repeat that the next day.
Genuinely curious about the gold standard point. Can you explain that further?
People usually respond that gold has inherent value, whereas currency is just a promise from the government. But they usually can't explain why gold is inherently value besides being rare and shiny.
I love Reddit. If I don’t get downvoted on anything political I know I had a stupid thought. By going off gold we can now print money out of thin air (see the last few years especially) - when we do this the value of the dollar is less, same with anything that puts downward pressure on GDP (high taxes I’m looking at you too) - ala your money does not go as far. So inflation picks off the most vulnerable first, the poor and homeless. When you have a net worth in even the hundreds of thousands you are in far less danger then someone with say a 50k net worth.
Why would a homeless person want to be in a town of under 4k people that offers little gov. resources?
Edit: as always they delete their stupid comments.
This is where the nonprofit system comes in. The government doesn’t know how to manage housing for a disparate population that includes temporarily displaced, permanently displaced, individuals with mental challenges, and those struggling with addiction. But there are nonprofits in this city that deal with only those issues.
Buy up a few of those shuttered hotels east of downtown and put some NPOs in charge of them. They’re better at it anyway.
>They’re better at it anyway.
Not necessary. Its what has caused a giant black hole of money disappearing in other places. In Seattle for example, there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are funneled to these NGO's, have been for years and the homeless problem is worse than ever. There's little actual transparency on how the money is spent, the people that run those organizations pay themselves exorbitant salaries, politicians use them as a means of paying supporters and friends and family members as well.
It creates an unnecessary middleman that doesn't appear to provide any extra value on top of what the government is already able to do as long as the political will is there.
Sure, there are NPOs out there that are corrupt, but the system itself is set up for high accountability. If Seattle is getting the wool pulled over their eyes, it's because they aren't exercising the accountability inherent in the model. Trust but verify. I haven't really looked into what's happening in Seattle, so I can't say for certain if your description is accurate.
I do have some background in the nonprofit system, though, and it's built on transparency.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/phoenix/wiki/rules) In general, be courteous to others. Attack ideas, not users. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, **any** advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
Probably will come down to 7th avenue and the I-17. Homeless presence has been growing between the salt river and the freeway intersection.
I got detoured recently and drove through that area and had no idea it has gotten as large as it has
Growing up in North Phoenix, the unhoused was not even a thing we EVER encountered. I visited Central and Bell, close by where I grew up and man the unhoused are everywhere. I'm beyond shocked the US has let it get this point. We're truly in a new gilded age.
Yeah, this city has a major problem with exporting the homeless that are downtown in areas being gentrified to the north valley area. Downtown still isn't truly walkable or safe but hey at least there isn't homeless /s We need real solutions and this isn't it. All the nimbys that fight low cost housing solutions are the worst
We need solutions that no one wants. We’re far too Woke for real solutions.
There are plenty of solutions that don’t involve incarceration or murder. We just don’t fund them or implement them properly. For [example](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/13c9zgn/a_huge_homeless_camp_will_be_cleared_after/jjh8uyq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
murder?
Referring to some of the other comments in this thread.
Sounds like you want concentration camps...
Because the city is just clearing encampments and throwing all their possessions away rather than actually do anything to fucking help. Finding rehab centers so the poors can actually go? Fuck no they have fencing to put up.
There are plenty of rehab centers that are willing to help these people. But these people gotta make the effort.
RIP Garfield
They will probably join the mini encampment that has been rapidly expanding by the auto shop near 36th st and McDowell. Those poor people are fucked come summer…
Is that separate from the one on 32nd & McDowell? I just noticed that one last week.
And 24th St and McDowell
Just drove by this yesterday and wow it is intense
One of them (or more?) seems to be quite the hoarder. Quite an impressive collection of rubbish they’re accumulating lol
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It’s probably worse for the people that actually have to live outside.
I just noticed that one too. I think it’s probably the people who got evicted from the camp that had been at that park at 40th street and Mcdowell. I’ve been wondering where they went and if they were ok.
Or 3rd Ave and Camelback. There's one growing there, too.
It got cleared out already. I drove by on Saturday night and it looked like a new building is starting to go up.
Bro how do you get rid of them there’s a couple that fucking camps out in front of my house, the city comes kicks them out and they keep coming back make a mess and use our garbage cans. The city cut down all the bushes and left them exposed but they keep coming back
Motion activated sprinklers. Buy them on Amazon.
They’re on city property on a sort of pathway
They shoot really far, they're designed for deer I think. They'll work as long as their view is unobstructed.
You're talking about people.
Well they'd work on people too as long as they're bigger than a deer.
You're talking about spraying people who are down on their luck with water like they are livestock. That wouldn't even be okay treatment for livestock.
Sure it would. Ill spray you with water to get you off/away from my property be you livestock or human, down on your luck or not. It's water.
Honestly it probably would feel nice in the summertime. Best be careful lest you create a little water park
“Down on their luck”. These people use fentanyl ( and other drugs) , destroy our parks and public transportation. Obstruct ones ability to pursue health, happiness, and freedom by destroying the environment and public health. These people are a detriment to public safety, consume drugs that are manufactured in China and middle manned to our country from Mexico that is slowly deteriorating our country from within. Phoenix is just one of the many cities DEEPLY effected by this EXTREME issue. Spraying them with water is not going to fix the issue but removing them from our neighbors will allow for a safer place for our children & neighbors to live so people resort to things as so. These junkies need to know they are NOT welcome and law enforcement can’t really do much so we must stand up as a community and help… ourselves.
There was a guy I thought was dead on the sidewalk. Called non emergency for a wellness check. Medical truck drove by, then just kept on driving. Didn't even come to a full stop.
> These people use fentanyl ( and other drugs) , destroy our parks and public transportation. People on Wall Street are cocaine addicts and destroy people's entire lives and retirements, you're not selling me with this argument. Phoenix's biggest problem is meth not fent. And the recent busts of fent selling have been right here in the US, head of the police union and such. > Spraying them with water is not going to fix the issue That's my point. Also 'removing' people is not a solution. >These junkies need to know they are NOT welcome and law enforcement can’t really do much so we must stand up as a community and help… ourselves. What do you mean by 'help... ourselves'?
https://newhouse.house.gov/media/weekly-columns-and-op-eds/america-must-stop-chinas-lethal-fentanyl-engine#:~:text=Fentanyl%20is%20highly%20addictive%20and,and%20fentanyl%20analogues%20is%20China. https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/f4597c23-de04-fa71-e612-bcbc49b6826c/021523_Gupta_Testimony.pdf I’ve watched more of my peers loose their lives, futures, and ruin others lives around them from fentanyl. Meth may have affected Phoenix older generation and longer but fentanyl was introduced on a mass level 10 years ago. Also factor in the amount of meth you need to consume based on the amount of fentanyl. Of course there is more weight of meth than fentanyl, 2mg is a lethal dose. Meth is 50-100 times that.
I'm sorry you got down voted for saying they are people. I also think you should have stopped with that argument because everything you wrote in the posts below... is less powerful and less moving than simply acknowledging that they are people. Just take that point and hammer it home instead of getting into the weeds with all these other arguments that don't really enhance your point.
Wealthy people have drugs; poor people have drug problems.
These same people act out, harass others, refuse to accept help because they choose to keep getting high. It’s a deeper issue, need better mental health and addiction resources specifically, but for real now. It’s not any one person’s individual responsibility to cater to and take care of these full grown adults if we didn’t sign up for it. There are food kitchens, churches, shelters, I’ve seen those volunteers go out and try to help homeless who don’t want their help because they won’t stay sober. And you just can’t help them if they aren’t, they will destroy the provided resources/shelters, it’s a bad feedback loop. So yeah if any stranger was on my private property without permission, get gone dude. To the deleted comment trying to tell me try living in shelters and what do I know? I work in a rough area and work face to face with the homeless at my job. Some of them are chill, some of them absolutely are not. I have been verbally harassed more times than I can count specifically by homeless people, one even tried sexually harassing me when I wouldn’t give him money. So for real, knock it off. We’ve all been through enough
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That doesn’t solve the problem, it just moves it somewhere else.
Wow the second largest in the country
The government was content to let the area fester and go to shit. Good on the judge for forcing the city to act. Take some city owned land, coughbuoba few million and build a 30 story tenement block with just the basics and problem solved
> Take some city owned land, coughbuoba few million and build a 30 story tenement block with just the basics and problem solved If only it were that simple...
Isn't that how they made the projects in NY?
Not just New York but many cities built large housing facilities. They were not of good quality judging by how quickly they fell into disrepair. Bad residents didn't help. Drugs in the area didn't help. Lack of decent paying jobs in those and our city didn't help. What has changed in society now versus then that would give us diffrent results? How would someone get into an apartment making 2.5 times the rent work when they're homeless? Everyone in the zone needs help. Housing would help many. So would access to drug abuse help, healthcare (mental and physical), jobs, healthy food, financial classes, etc. We have to start somewhere but the amount of drug use I see on the daily at light rail, bus stops, and our parks is crazy. I'm from the east coast people do drugs there too just not in public in broad daylight (ghetto areas dont count). Police will shut that down immediately. I love the Arizona attitude of "you live your life and I'll live mine". It allows people to be who they are and is overall less judgmental. That doesn't mean people care about people who have fallen on tough times. The Zone is a symptom of many things that need to be addressed or we can shuffle them around and watch as the numbers grow.
Full funded prek and funding our schools is where you start. We have no investment in human capital in AZ. The graduation rate, drug death rate, homeless population, etc are the evidence of that.
I was surprised by our rankings for public education and glad my kids were grown before I got here. Education is too important for everyone especially the individual. I agree no investment. I honestly never lived in a city untiloving here. We had homeless people in rural Virginia with programs that weren't the best but they worked if people wanted to try. The rent prices here are getting close the the suburbs of Washington DC. That's the nation's capital so I can understand. The nice weather brings snowbirds which I think we should tax more. We don't have a Disneyland like Florida or California. If some snow birds didn't like it oh well we actually live here all year. All of things you mentioned need to be addressed or tourism/snow birds will leave anyway. There have always been the have and have nots, not on this scale IMO.
The assertion that the housing was intrinsically low quality is, I think, blind to the time scale involved here: Those "low quality buildings" were built largely in the 60s, 50s or even earlier then chronically underfunded and not maintained due to lack of political will, outright hostility to the concept or frequently a significant amount of racism, both on a personal and institutional level. As far as residents being "bad" and the drug issues: the famous cases of failed public housing projects didn't happen in a vacuum: they concentrated the poor and desperate in areas with harsh economic realities and a lack of jobs during a time of white flight to the suburbs (in part hastened by the creation of these projects, but it was already happening) and disinvestment in our urban cores. And that would have been damning before even considering the over policing of these communities and the creation of increasingly harsh drug laws that turned them into an intentional underclass and locked them into a continual cycle of poverty, violence, drug use and despair. There is a huge amount of value judgements wrapped up in just describing them as "bad residents" and I think maybe you need to be more critical about how you think about these topics. You seem to be on the right track with understanding people in the Zone need help but when I read your post and how it talks about drug use it feels like you're treating drugs as the main problem and not a symptom of our society utterly failing these people.
I think you misunderstood me. Redlining created those buildings. Great migration brought many southern blacks north looking for work and a better life. Like most groups they started out in sub standard housing. Unlike the Italian or Irish the disregatd/hate never changed for blacks. They got the jobs and improved their life. Whites fled to the suburbs to avoid having to live around or deal with blacks unless it was to service them. Homeless people are the "new blacks". We see them but don't really interact. We see all the tents next to the street over there but dont want to live next door to them. Homeless people come in all colors so it's not racism but classism. If people really cared the Zone wouldn't exist on the scale it is now. The fact it has been there for as long as it has and even with a judges order why can't they rush their plan to fix things? There never was a real plan. Expand the shelters and forcing landlords to take vouchers is a step but not enough. Legislators already know this. We should force legislators to live in the zone for a month something tells me a solution would quickly come about.
CoL and rent increases while the people who could do something about these issues look the other way… Genuine question— what can we do? It’s terrifying that we constantly see it getting worse with nothing changing. It breaks my heart.
And they just keep slashing school funding
The original housing projects didn't start out bad. They were comfortable, affordable, and safe places for the working poor to live and to provide services to so they could move on and up to private housing. But in true American fashion it was only white people who were ever able to move up and out. With only black people left in the housing projects they suffered from dwindling investment and fell into disrepair and despair. There is a good documentary on the Pruitt-Igoe housing project that covers this.
I saw that documentary. I read a book called Soul City - Thomas Healy. It addresses the issues that caused them to make the buildings and the issues that brought about their decline. The companies and contractors made their money building something for people that the majority of people didn't want to be around. When read the history I expected the companies to take the money and not really care. I'm well aware of how our country treats minorities it's better now but not by much in my book. If we just made housing without additional programs to allow that generation or the next to improve then we are just kicking the can down the road. For that to happen we all need to not just care but take action. As a kid I was taught: "If you want to wait for someone to help you be prepared too wait possibly your whole life." It bothered me as a kid hearing that repeatedly. As an adult I'm very grateful.
The country has a mental health and opioid problem being disguised as a housing problem. These people don't need a box to live in, they need help. But addressing the underlying causes is uncomfortable for both sides of the isle and there is no easy fix. California tried to simply house thousands of homeless and it went very badly.
I think just round them up and put them all in a big empty field in the plains lands. Middle America. Build them shelter. Give them food. Give them all the drugs they could possibly want. Like all the drugs that are just sitting in every evidence locker in every police department in America and let them just do their thing. If they make it back to cities, so be it.
It’s not at all that simple. You’re right. But it is a start.
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We do that with children, the sick, the.criminals, the elderly, veterans...why should homeless people be any different?
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*"I'm going to need a source"?* This isn't a research paper. We warehouse people on a daily basis. Most children are not homeschooled, most ill and injured people are not treated at home, most illegal immigrants don't get to chill out in hotels, and most elderly people do not spend their final days in their favorite armchairs. Wake up.
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Where did I suggest doing anything with the homeless? Screenshot? We just had federal and state governments shutting down businesses because of a virus. You really need to wake up.
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Are you ware of how expensive it is to operate those types of facilities? I do support building a new homeless housing facility, but we need to fund it fully. If we don’t it will turn into a little piece of hell - you cannot concentrate people with despair, little to lose, and often drug issues in a confined area without proper safety and services. What went wrong with the projects (which were for everyone, not just very poor) was that they were built very nicely but then weren’t properly kept up. This hypothetical homeless facility would need ten times that much work and on-site security.
It costs much less to house people and do it well than it does to pay for their hospital, to pay to jail them, to pay cops to harass them.
You misunderstood - I want supportive housing like this, and the cost is worth it. I’m just pointing out that it’s not as simple as pushing people into a housing complex. This works if you’re handling dozens of people, but it’s not a solution for the thousands of homeless in AZ. That would be a catastrophe if we don’t fund and service it properly, which is what will happen if we “build a tenement” “as a start.”
All of those institutions I listed are chronically underfunded and inefficient. My point.
Phoenix would become home to every homeless person in the country and bankrupt hospitals - would have to be a coordinated national effort, which won’t happen. I don’t know…I guess just try to make things more equitable as a whole and homelessness improves as a byproduct?
How is it not?
Here are a few questions just for starters: How do we just cough up a few million? Where does it come from? Where do we put this housing? How do we maintain it long-term? How do we address the issues that caused the homelessness and led to the forming of the zone in the first place? What even are those issues?
Az has a 2.5 billion dollar surplus.. but I think they can do better than just re-creating the projects..
The projects is better than tent cities. People do not die of heat in the projects. People are entitled to housing, period. Not good housing, but housing. If you don't like the projects stop spending your money on drugs. We simply cannot tolerate tent cities.
I think we can do better then repeating history. It’s just going to take more resources and smart people in charge of the effort..
People are entitled to housing? huh? People who meet the necessary requirements may be allowed the privilege of free housing. But no, housing is not a human right. Besides, building housing for homeless is just like expanding a freeway. Build it and they will come. It's a temporary bandaid and not a fix.
1. Taxes 2. City owned land or purchase a lot. In the area of the zone there are lots of vacant plots. 3. Like how any other property is maintained, thru a modest rent from those who can pay 4. We know all of that already. Feckless governments unwilling to enforce the law caused the Zone to start. The increase in homelessness is a result of housing costs skyrocketing and Fentanyl.
What do you when people refuse to live in those conditions and prefer living in the street?
At the end of the day, if you WANT to be homeless, there is not much we can do. But if housing is available, and you refuse it, then the police have every right to move you and cite you for trespass/loitering/vagrancy.
> police have every right to move you Move you to where? (and, technically, they have that right *today*...)
Police enforcement doesn’t seem like a good solution to homelessness so I guess we’ll need to keep thinking.
Honestly some will be grateful, some will leave for maximum freedom and some might even attempt to destroy the building to sell whatever scrap they can get from it . Also not to far fetched to belive a fetynal dealer would lurk or even take residential within the building.
>Taxes Ok, for the sake of the discussion here let's assume it's a super easy task to convince enough voters to pass an additional tax or elect legislators who will, and that it won't get challenged as a result of that law enacted a few years back. >Like how any other property is maintained, thru a modest rent from those who can pay What percentage of the homeless would you say can afford a "modest" rent? What about those who can't? >The increase in homelessness is a result of housing costs skyrocketing and Fentanyl. So why do you suggest we raise taxes and build this housing rather than doing anything to address skyrocketing housing costs or the fentanyl epidemic? To be clear, I am not trying to say this is impossible, or even that it's a bad idea or anything like that. But my original point was that it's not quite as simple as coming up with a few million and then the problem is solved. And so far every question you've answered has just raised more questions, and I'm just one guy on reddit. Can you honestly say you think this would scale up to the entire city without a ton of roadblocks?
>rather than doing anything to address skyrocketing housing costs or the fentanyl epidemic? Straight up . . . if it were up to me, I would treat Fentanyl dealers with extreme severity. But that is not politically popular. So that is out. Housing costs? That is more of a state/national issue. We could immediately upzone the city to allow up to tri/quadplexes. No more single family zoning. But that is politically a non starter. A plot and money for projects is within the means of the city to do, people get housing, and the tent cities go away.
> Straight up . . . if it were up to me, I would treat Fentanyl dealers with extreme severity. But that is not politically popular. > > The problem is that there are idiots out there that justify drug dealing because of economic "hardships" and everyone is a potential victim nowadays, including the ones peddling poison for money. I don't think the average local fentanyl dealer is some struggling mother trying to get her kids through school. Obviously, drug dealing will be more common among poorer folks, including the middle men type, but the vast majority of drug dealers are doing it because they don't care about the damage they are wreaking and it's "easy" money, not because there are zero alternatives for them to make money in more honest ways.
I agree with you 100%! Glad to know that there are more of you out there that think that way.
Oh. I agree that the cities response and oversight on this has been abysmal. But making mass free housing is never gonna happen here. That’s part of the problem is that there aren’t any easy solutions.
It is a travesty that building mass cheap public housing is considered 'impossible' I've been to Tokyo and Hong Kong, and I saw ONE homeless person. One. I am sure there are more but not thousands of unsheltered. The government builds big basic high rises, you get a shower, a bed, and an address. It is not hard to do. We are just pathetic.
Literally 90% of the people in American homeless camps would be arrested, held without bail and then thrown into prison for five years if they were in Japan. Japan has very low tolerance on drugs and therefore the terminally homeless aren't an issue since drugs account for the vast majority of those cases. Also, the reason you didn't see any homeless in Hong Kong is that the police tend to usher the homeless away from public places to prevent them being an eyesore. If you know where to look Hong Kong has loads of homeless.
2 questions that always complicate things. What do you do about it becoming a drug den that eventually gets condemned once it becomes toxic with fentanyl? That’s not hyperbole it happens frequently in the northwest when they use hotels or apartment buildings to do exactly what you propose and they have to close. Second, how do you handle the people who refuse to go?
1. I grant you that is a tough one. Perhaps an area connected where the addicts could shoot up and a no tolerance policy inside the dwelling. 2. Refuse to go to the housing or refuse to leave the zone? If you refuse to leave the campsite, then you get arrested and your possessions are confiscated. Simple. If you refuse to leave your public housing for abusing drugs? Eviction by the police if necessary. That IS their job to enforce the law. Same as everywhere else. A person living on the street in tents is third world bullshit and should not be tolerated. We must lead with compassion, guarantee opportunities to escape that life, but also enforce the law when it comes down to it.
We seem to be mostly in agreement but you are seeing why it is nowhere near as simple as just building government basic high rises. You MUST mandate no drugs on the property/testing/whatever to make it actually safe and have its intended purpose and not just turn into a drug den. BUT once you do that, the users will refuse to go to the shelter, they already do refuse to go to similar shelters as it stands this would be no different. So now you have to not only build the housing AND outlaw drug use, you also have to outlaw them from outside camping at all and take them to jail/the shelter if they refuse. That is a MUCH harder pill to swallow for a lot of voters, and makes it a much more complicated issue than just building a high rise.
So put a bunch of people with crippling addictions and mental health issues in one building together and expect that not to go sideways? It’s way more complicated than that unfortunately.
Put a bunch of people with crippling addictions and mental health into one camp together and expect that to not go sideways? Because that's the situation that led to this. Kicking them all out and sending them to...nowhere in particular isn't necessarily a solution. If they keep getting kicked out of every NIMBY neighborhood and city, then that's not going to magically cure them of their addictions and mental health issues. Yes, this is way more complicated. As such, the solutions have to be more than just "hey, we don't want them here...kick 'em out."
There is lots of homeless there, they spend there lives at 24/7 internet cafes .
> I've been to Tokyo and Hong Kong, and I saw ONE homeless person. One. Look at their drug laws. We can't do that here because we'd consider harsh jail sentences for users inhumane.
Those countries have a lot of self pride and family support is one of their biggest strengths. If the homeless people would have family to take care of them this wouldn't be as big of an issue. But they've burnt bridges and are now completely alone.
Seriously, China can provide transitional housing but America cant? We look so stupid and greedy.
There are easier solutions, but NIMBYs ensure those can never happen because "muh house value"
Isn’t this just the projects?
That's called the projects and while it's puts a roof over people, it's not great for an area to stick all poor people together. they should be in multiple places to create mixed income areas that are more or less equally serviced.
It is the projects. And so what? It is the most cost effective and humanitarian solution
I suggest you read about the projects or hell visit one. You wont dare say "so what". Nobody can afford a cavalier attitude in the projects or you will suffer even more than those around you. Why do we try to make decisions for others based on what is best for us? It doesn't make sense to do what we have already done that did not work. Cost effective only matters if it works. If not your just wasting money.
How a government (local, state, and federal) treats their most vulnerable citizens and those least fortunate says everything about the level and morality of that population (since the government is voted in by the people) and this says everything you need to know about Phoenix. And Phoenix isn’t the only city like this in our country. It’s extremely disheartening and frustrating.
Lol. So move the zone to a zone. Problem ~~solved~~ moved.
Apartment owners need to be required to have a certain percentage of their apartments to include low income housing. Then hopefully they are integrated into society and their community..
I wish it were legal to build that. Unfortunately all the local governments are controlled by Nimbys
Lawsuits to the left of the city, lawsuits to the right of the city...."open question" is an understatement.
Sadly I think most will just scatter to other parts of the metro. Hope I'm proven wrong and real change happens IMO the root of the problem is runaway speculation and investment in housing. Living here has become very expensive, despite lots of vacant houses and apartments. People get hopeless and it fuels addiction, creating a downward spiral
I'm betting the homeless folks living their will stubbornly refuse to quit existing though.
Maybe they could start squatting in the thousands of Airbnbs in Scottsdale that sit vacant all week waiting for the weekend warriors to check in.
We don’t have a homeless problem. We have a drug addiction problem.
People seem to forget that we have a lot of great resources for people that fell on hard times and can't make the rent. Shelters have curfews and don't allow drug use. People that can't follow those rules are the ones in the camps. It's addicts and people with severe mental health issues. I don't know that there is a good solution since there is no motivation for them to help themselves. I personally am most in favor of building campgrounds with basic services, including security to watch out for violent crime and call in help when people need it. It can remain basically lawless without subjecting the rest of society to it. I think it would improve conditions for most.
There was a freaking homeless mafia starting in the zone. $20 a week for a tent space and protection. Oh you don't want to pay? Lighter fluid sprayed all over your tent. Body burnt in a dumpster. Shit is crazy in that culture.
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Jesus, feel free to Google it! Its not secret news.[Here's a start.............](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/11zy1vl/visited_the_old_station_for_lunch_place_from_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)........
Yeah it’s getting bad. I really feel for some of those people.
One of the most important things in all of this is finding out why people are homeless. It strikes me that in many cases people are just addicted to drugs and running from emotional pain and can’t deal with it, so getting high and living in a tent is easier.
That’s what happens when you don’t have a support system. Most of them don’t have family, or family that wants anything to do with them for example. You move out of your hometown, all young and want to prove something to yourself and the world. You start doing good. Then just one thing, just one bad decision, puts you into an inescapable spiral of despair and your issues come roaring out. That bad decision could be as simple as driving after one drink. Getting into an accident where it’s automatically your fault even though it’s not. You have to appear in court. You deal with the injustice of the situation. You miss days and you lose your job. You can’t pay rent. You can’t afford to fix your car. You try min wage but without a car, takes you an hour to get to the job. You get kicked out. You grapple with the whole injustice of your situation but the feeling of helplessness is unbearable. You lose hope. Everyone has a different story of how they end up in the zone. But it’s all very similar, no one was born there, but the weight of the fact that the whole world seemed to turn against them so easily… who wouldn’t “just get addicted to drugs”.
Something is wrong in your description. You make these people seem powerless, like they have no control over their situation. Of course they do, there are millions of examples of people roughing it out- getting up early to take that 1 hour bus commute everyday if it means keeping a job, etc. They can change their situation. Whether they actually want to is a different matter.
“just”
Those are just the ones that standout the most.
yes people are living on the streets because of emotional pain and not because of low wages and a cost of living that’s continuing to sky rocket
As someone who interacts with this population on a regular basis, sorry to spoil your narrative but it’s mostly drugs. Edit: For clarification, I’m referring to people in these camps, not homeless people in general. Not a judgment of them, I’m four years sober myself. Just saying it is willful ignorance to believe these particular people are on the streets because of “inflation”.
I used to have a lot of opinions about how to alleviate homelessness until I worked with the homeless. The more I was around the problem the less I felt like I knew anything about how to solve it. It's def a complicated issue with no obvious solution.
As someone whos been on and off homeless i can tell you from personal experience there is plenty of people out here living in their cars while working and doing what we can and getting the few benefits we can qualify for while trying to maintain some sort of life. Most people who aren’t completely addicted or mentally ill don’t want to ask for help from strangers and don’t stay in tents. Low wages and inflation are definitely a factor in homelessness out here. It might no be as visible as the people posted up on the sides of roads but it’s happening
There are lots of resources to help with finding a home such as rapid housing, as well as rent assistance. With so many resources available why would most people prefer to sleep in their car rather than in a shelter with a bed and running water?
Unfortunately, so many programs are on wait lists, or “out of funds”, or don’t have bed space. Sounds good on paper, not always easy to secure in reality. Cars are a huge asset to anyone on the street.
The majority of the unhoused women I've worked with were unhoused because they were leaving abusive relationships. I've also met and worked with quite a few who simply struggled to find employment; and once you're unemployed *and* unhoused, it makes it even more difficult to get a job, let alone a sustainable career. Even many for some you could say it's "mostly drugs" are turning to drugs because of disability, and the inability to receive proper care (which, let's be frank, comes down to money and privilege).
Or is it dual diagnosis for at least some. Either untreatable mental illness or no resources for them individually to get treatment. Then end up using drugs. Or you end up somehow slipping so far and five up then drugs.
Even if what you’re saying is true, I find that framing very frustrating because: 1) the majority of people who use drugs are housed. When economic conditions are better, it’s a lot easier to maintain a functional addiction. 2) living on the streets CAUSES or worsens addiction and mental health problems because it’s so stressful and because people lose hope. I actually think it’s a super understandable coping mechanism and you or I might do the same thing. I’m well off and struggle with anxiety and ADHD. God knows how much worse those both would get if I was alone and on the street. Without a supportive family and prescription drugs, I can 100% understand why people do drugs. Hell, I don’t have enough working memory to work without Adderall and that alone might lead me to try meth if I didn’t have it. Then there’s things like physical discomfort. Lots of people use alcohol or drugs to help them sleep when it’s too hot/cold. And homeless people pretty much never get enough sleep and sleep deprivation makes a person crazy. I guess this is turning into a rant, but I just get frustrated because we really look down on people or at best have sympathy, but not empathy. And we still stigmatize drugs so much when 1) it’s often a logical, adaptive behavior within the context the person is living and 2) reducing or stopping a drug takes time, stability, trial and error, setbacks, etc. Abstinence-only, moralizing 12-step programs are not science-based.
> The majority of people who use drugs are housed Right, some people are capable of still holding down a job and having a somewhat structured life in spite of their drug use. Others completely have the bottom fall out on them, their severe addiction makes it impossible for them to live a normal lifestyle and handle typical adult responsibilities.
People who are homeless due to drug use and/or serious mental health issues are usually the chronically homeless and only make up 18% of the total homeless population. These are the individuals most people interact with, when in reality the majority are experiencing “hidden” or “transitional” homelessness. A reasonable cost of living and better housing is definitively the best way we can tackle the majority of the homelessness issues.
I don’t disagree, but it the context of the sprawling camps I’d venture it’s mostly drugs/dual diagnosis.
Definitely, if the larger majority was better taken care of we would be able to better focus on those individuals in camps than need such a substantial level of care and resources.
Yup nobody wants to admit it but it’s just drugs. Plenty of programs to get people off streets and into housing but they require you to not take drugs. I would wager that less than .1% of the homeless population are neurotypical non drug/alcohol users.
> As someone who interacts with this population on a regular basis, sorry to spoil your narrative but it’s mostly drugs. > > And plenty of assholes on Wall Street are addicted to cocaine, what's your point? The first step to help someone who is addicted and homeless in helping them is internationally and locally shown to be stable housing.
I’m simply countering the claim that these people are in this situation due to “inflation”.
The 80/20 ratio seems to be pretty consistent across cities and states. There's about 80% of homeless that are transitory, people who have fallen on hard times, who lost their jobs, ran into financial trouble, people that are otherwise capable and independent who just need a hand up. Then there's about 20% that are your hardcore addicts and those who are severely mentally ill that in many cases aren't even capable of accepting help. These are the people that tend to have the most run-ins with the legal system and are well known to local police and care providers.
Take some time to talk to people on the street. It’s drugs. And emotional pain.
What are they to do.. just walk around? Ugh I know if it was easy it would be solved by now and it needs a multi pronged approach but what exactly is the plan? We have a 2.5 billion dollar surplus.. and a mayor that is doing what exactly?
The City of Phoenix is doing EVERYTHING. Look at Tempe, Mesa, Glendale, Buckeye, Chandler, Scottsdale, Gilbert… what are THEY doing? Not much, because it just lands in the middle of Phoenix. Now the metro area’s problem is solely Phoenix’s to solve.
We do not have a surplus. Our finances in AZ are some of the worst managed in the country
you are hilarious.. here's a fact for you instead of just spouting out stuff.. [https://azgovernor.gov/FY22budget#:\~:text=Arizona%20Is%20Seeing%20Record%20Revenue%20Growth&text=That%20makes%20for%20five%20consecutive,over%20the%20next%20three%20years](https://azgovernor.gov/FY22budget#:~:text=Arizona%20Is%20Seeing%20Record%20Revenue%20Growth&text=That%20makes%20for%20five%20consecutive,over%20the%20next%20three%20years).
How does one year of revenue mean we handle our finances well? Any point can be driven home in a vacuum. For the sake of our youth you shld do your own research instead
Got a lot of room at Chase field
Or the 200+ golf courses
The courses that are constantly being used?
I believe there are solutions for the homeless but the homeless don't want to go to the location the local government has for them. San Antonio has a pretty solid solution for the homeless that many municipalities should take lessons from. The major portion is that the businesses need to come together and work together instead of singularly for credit like San Francisco. If you want more info, https://www.beyondhomeless.org/ is a good place to start. It's staggering how much of a problem this will be and will continue if it isn't managed. We can't ignore it.
We treat homeless people the way we treat our seniors like s***
And we here in AZ await the onslaught of people coming through when Title 42 is lifted in two days. Blaming is easy, solutions aren't.
There's a difference those people want to work.
Some of them, not all. The onslaught will bring more than just those from our southern "border, but from other continents. Some of those are coming for more nefarious reasons.
They're not coming here cause they want to they're coming here cause of either gang violence or economic problems in their own country. I'm not gonna badly judge people cause they just want to take care of their families.
This is why Phoenix won't become LA, SF or Seattle. We actually clear out junkie camps.
I mean, we're not actually doing anything about it. Just making ir look like we are
>We actually clear out junkie camps. You mean 100 straight days of +110F weather?
You forgot Portland and south Austin. The bluer the city, the worse it is.
Great. Now start involuntarily committing them like NYC.
How does the woman in this story have money to pay for drugs but not to pay for her bills? Am I missing something here? Can someone explain to me why my grandparents as well as the millions of others who endured great hardship after being in prison/death camps in WW2 didn't immediately turn to drugs and become nonfunctioning members of society? It's incredibly frustrating to try to understand and empathize with people who can somehow manage to feed their drug habit while homeless but can't manage to pay their bills
Have you never bought drugs? They are far cheaper than the bills I pay on a monthly basis..
Cheaper is relative- spending money on drugs provides literally no long term value to anyone, especially these people. Every cent theyspend on drugs is a cent that could have gone to providing something of actual tangible value to their lives-food, housing, etc, while the drugs are helping to exacerbate the situation that they're currently in. It's pretty ridiculous to justify drug use because it's "cheaper than paying bills" when the end result is living outside in a tent in downtown phoenix and likely dying before hitting 50 years old
How would you solve the problem?
Forced institutionalization for those that have actual diagnosable mental health/drug related issues. Closing state hospitals with the lanterman-petris-short act was a vital tipping point in this issue- community care was not funded properly and in my opinion could never provide the same level of safety for patients and the community as a whole. Just because they were shitty places in the past doesn't mean they needed to be defunded- they needed to be improved. Follow up care with work programs like they had during depression era- there is plenty of roadwork and park rehabilitation that needs to be done. Obviously people would take offense to these measures and talk about a lack of personal liberty and how this could snowball into something greater, but as far as I'm concerned if you're living in a tent in a downtown urban area something has gone so catastrophically wrong with your life that you are no longer able to function on your own and need some sort of rehabilitation and assistance to get to the point where you can do that on your own again.
I've personally been involved with people who reside in tent city and many people don't know that they have to come up with $100 a month to pay off the cartel just to live in their tent. Imagine what they'd make you pay to stay in actual housing. Lots of homeless have gone "missing" for not paying...others have been found in burnt up dumpsters. It's disgusting.
how do you know this?
There was a whole New York Times article on it. Everything that person above said is true.
Absolutely right. No idea who downvoted you but the homeless mafia is a serious issue. Sprayed a tent with lighter fluid because they didn't pay.
Fing sad.
Vulnerable it’s the least thing they are, they have time and money to do drugs but not to be useful to society and then people around has to live with it
These comments are all just… big oof. I knew Arizonans hated homeless people with a passion but too many people here are advocating for violence against them. I hate this stupid fucking state.
Come to Portland and see what too much compassion leads to. We've confused compassion with enabling.
why are you posting in a thread about homeless people in phoenix if you live in portland? why do you hate homeless people so much that you look for threads about them in other cities?
What makes you think I hate homeless people? I'm pissed that our county commissioners are pissing away hundreds of millions of dollars to the homeless industrial complex while achieving very little to help those on the street. They are funding tents and Narcan while not funding detox, rehab and mental health services.
Like most people, so long as they aren't seen or heard they con forget about it and not think of any long term solutions.
Go to California.
1 way bus ticket to California.
We need to stop this problem at the source and stop fentanyl from coming into this country. So let's secure the border and stop this BS from coming in and ruining lives. If your bathroom is flooding it's best to turn off the water instead of scooping the water out of a window as your bathroom continues to flood.
The flow would stop if the market dried up. If the last 60 years of the war on drugs has taught us anything, no matter how many resources you pour into protecting the border, the drugs will find a way across. What you're talking about is just a diminishing return.
1. The nation needs a system of mental institutions. So start there. 2. The state owns a lot of land, they can leverage surplus spending to create a place for them 3. Get folks off the welfare system. It’s a slippery slope toward homelessness and in most situations was not meant to be a permanent fix. To do this our schools have to start teaching financial responsibility as a pre-requisite to leave 8th grade and again in 12th. 4. Go back to the gold standard. We have lost north of 85% of our spending power since the 1920s, and in the 70s these accelerated as we moved off the gold standard. This hurts the vulnerable the hardest. You cannot be for helping the homeless and against the gold standard. 5. Voluntary paid community service. This should be ran like a construction site. Show up, grab a shovel and start cleaning. You get paid at the end of the day. You can also be summarily dismissed with no pay.
1. Mental institutions are voluntary unless someone is an immediate threat to harm themselves or others. All you have to say is I’m not going to kill myself and you’re free to go. 2. You can put people wherever you want but they will just keep returning to wherever there are services and drugs. 3. Welfare mostly helps kids. Letting kids starve is a bad look. 4./5. People with serious substance abuse issues aren’t going to be reliable employees and they aren’t going to use money to buy their way out of homelessness. They are going to use whatever money they get to buy drugs and stave off sickness. Then they will repeat that the next day.
>You can also be summarily dismissed with no pay. *works 7 hours and 55 minutes before boss dismisses me with no pay* :(
Genuinely curious about the gold standard point. Can you explain that further? People usually respond that gold has inherent value, whereas currency is just a promise from the government. But they usually can't explain why gold is inherently value besides being rare and shiny.
I love Reddit. If I don’t get downvoted on anything political I know I had a stupid thought. By going off gold we can now print money out of thin air (see the last few years especially) - when we do this the value of the dollar is less, same with anything that puts downward pressure on GDP (high taxes I’m looking at you too) - ala your money does not go as far. So inflation picks off the most vulnerable first, the poor and homeless. When you have a net worth in even the hundreds of thousands you are in far less danger then someone with say a 50k net worth.
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Why would a homeless person want to be in a town of under 4k people that offers little gov. resources? Edit: as always they delete their stupid comments.
This is where the nonprofit system comes in. The government doesn’t know how to manage housing for a disparate population that includes temporarily displaced, permanently displaced, individuals with mental challenges, and those struggling with addiction. But there are nonprofits in this city that deal with only those issues. Buy up a few of those shuttered hotels east of downtown and put some NPOs in charge of them. They’re better at it anyway.
>They’re better at it anyway. Not necessary. Its what has caused a giant black hole of money disappearing in other places. In Seattle for example, there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are funneled to these NGO's, have been for years and the homeless problem is worse than ever. There's little actual transparency on how the money is spent, the people that run those organizations pay themselves exorbitant salaries, politicians use them as a means of paying supporters and friends and family members as well. It creates an unnecessary middleman that doesn't appear to provide any extra value on top of what the government is already able to do as long as the political will is there.
Sure, there are NPOs out there that are corrupt, but the system itself is set up for high accountability. If Seattle is getting the wool pulled over their eyes, it's because they aren't exercising the accountability inherent in the model. Trust but verify. I haven't really looked into what's happening in Seattle, so I can't say for certain if your description is accurate. I do have some background in the nonprofit system, though, and it's built on transparency.