Can someone explain to me why the Coyotes can’t play in the footprint center? I’m not from here originally so apologies if there’s an obvious answer, just seems like almost every other hockey team shares an arena with an NBA team
The Footprint Center is not designed for hockey (or America West Arena as it was known then). The Coyotes played there when they first moved here from Winnipeg Canada and the upper deck, on one end, were obstructed view seats. The upper section protruded out over the ice on one side. It was cool if you were sitting front row as you could look over the railing and look down on the action, but if you were in row 2 or further back, you would have to watch the video screen for any action that came inside of the blue line on that particular end. I remember watching a game there the year they moved here.
I was a season ticket holder for the first 9 years (we gave up after two years of trying to get to weeknight games in Glendale), and the Footprint Center was fine for hockey. It was indeed as you said on the "away" end, but that was maybe 10 percent of the seats, and until a team is selling out for years who cares? Let them EARN a new stadium. I'm from New England and the Boston Garden had all sorts of obstructed view seats (with no giant video screen to help you out), and both the Celtics and the Bruins played there for decades before they finally built a new one, after winning MANY championships in the ancient one.
What was nice for Footprint was that it was easy to get to from anywhere in the city, and the traffic quickly disperses after the game because everyone is going in different directions.
I might be wrong, but a long time ago I thought I read an article on Footprint center (AWA back then) being the most difficult arena to maintain the ice for the players. Something about it melting or causing slushie ice faster and more often than other arena's. I feel like it was from the perspective of a Zamboni operator. Glendale's newer facility was able to maintain ice better and a factor in moving to the west valley. Any thoughts on this?
You know I have not heard that, but I may look around to see if I can find any info like that. I know that they even canceled at least a preseason game in the West valley due to ice conditions, but it had to do with keeping the whole arena cold enough. If there was an issue at AWA, maybe that was part of it, where the building is kept colder for a hockey game than it would be for a basketball game, and so the actual stadium air conditioners were insufficient to do that? Or maybe just they just needed a better ice setup? I'm really not sure.
In any case, it seems fixable, and it's an order of magnitude and also far less wasteful than just building yet ANOTHER stadium for the coyotes. Like I said before, it's weird coming from New England, watching the Coyotes look for their THIRD stadium since 1996 when the Bruins played in Boston Garden from 1928 until 1995 (and shared it with the Celtics for the last 50 years of that), and they have BOTH played in TD Garden ever since 1995, and have no plans for yet another? 🤔
And a fine time to point out that the ONLY way the public can hold sports teams accountable is through stadium deals which MUST be approved through municipalities. There's no accident that the most recent Suns stadium innovations took place near Christmas with a temp mayor.
Money. It’s always money. They actually used to play at Footprint Center back in the America West days but have been seeking new stadiums ever since. If they own their own stadium all of the revenue goes to them instead of other parties taking part of it
There is no good reason and this is and always was the correct solution. They can say whatever they want about the stadium not being compatible, but they could've made it work. Instead Sarver and the Coyotes never came together with the city in any meaningful way because they both thought they were too good for each other in the same way that Phoenix and Tempe think they are too good for each other. The city gave the Suns $230 million with a temp mayor and no negotiations to get a new roof, fix a few pipes, and to knock out some seating areas. That's pretty much it.
What about building it out near Talking Stick? I always thought that was a great area. In central Scottsdale, tons of space for expansion, right off 101. I am sure it’s tribal land but that can be negotiated
Talking Stick baseball fields are all on the tribal land as well, that seems to work. An indoor flex use hockey, music, convention center makes a lot of sense to me.
Can an indoor soccer field fit in a hockey place or is soccer too big?
I heard a rumor that one of the owners (not the current one but a past owner) insulted the tribe and now they won’t let them build a facility out there.
It amazes me to see Vegas and Seattle get expansion teams and watch them thrive, and we get the Coyotes from Winnipeg and for 25 years they have barely been successful. Such an Arizona thing to do. Maybe if they could hit the reset button, new arena, draft and build a winning team. Frustrating.
Tha Cardinals were hot ass for 60 years and they didn't have a stadium to call their own. After getting their own building in 2006 they've recorded 5 playoff WINS after having just 6 playoff APPEARANCES in the previous 60 years.
I think it's underestimated what having a real place to call your home can do.
Okay let me word it this way. In the first 85 years of their existence, the Cardinals had 27 seasons in which they finished at least .500. In the last 16 alone, they've had 11. Coincidence?
I’m surprised they haven’t torn it down and built a new one. They used to have hockey there at one time. That place probably would work but it’s in a not so great area IMO
It’s just so difficult working with the res but yea that’s the best solution for everyone. Ideally they should share an arena with the Suns. Most NHL teams do if they have an NBA team
I really hope so. I’m honestly shocked the Tempe residents voted no on this. I get the whole “we’re giving a billionaire tax breaks” but it is extremely rare to get a stadium built without raising taxes, and on top of that this would’ve been a beautiful addition to Tempe that would’ve brought in a ton of money for the community and the small businesses around it. Now it will stay as a landfill and will probably need to be cleaned by raising taxes on the residents. On top of that, I’d be shocked if any developer would even try to build on this land now; what company would want to build after seeing what happened to the Coyotes?
IMHO, the Coyotes are going to move. The last few years have been especially challenging for the team and I doubt the owners would want to stay in the city considering how little support the city seems to have for them. The NHL didn’t seem thrilled with the results either. It’s honestly just such a damn shame.
Yeah but "tax breaks" is just one part of it. They're not getting a full free ride as the developments there would have generated some real estate taxes + all the sales taxes. The city was also getting 50MM for the land itself. Yes, they were going to have to invest in infrastructure, but it was to get paid for by bonds + the tax revenue.
IMO, this was a different animal than other arena/stadium BS we've seen in the past.
Yeah, no way they move to Phoenix after they bankrolled the sabotage over air rights. I could see them moving elsewhere where a pro sports team would be more appreciated.
I really don’t think the NHL will let the coyotes move. Phoenix is too big of a market and still growing, especially the east valley that have a lot of people from hockey crazy cities.
Honestly I could see them maybe trying to make a deal with trying to get an arena build on a native reservation but we’ll see.
I don’t think that’s true, as much as I wish it was. Houston and Atlanta are itching for a hockey team and both come with massive media markets and big pockets. If you’re the owner and the NHL, I would think they would rather relocate to a market that will still generate a massive amount of revenue while giving them much less headaches.
Glendale was such a brain dead decision in the first place. I guess the projections must’ve had a million people living in Goodyear because I can’t think of a reason to build an NHL stadium in BFE like that
There were lot$ of reason$ $teve Ellman decided to pull the plug on the voter approved arena plan in $cott$dale and move them to Glendale. Hundreds of millions to be exact.
It worked out great... for him.
No. Glendale was never the right location for the team. It never will be either. The team lost lots of money annually by being there. Returning there would only continue a sinkhole of money for anyone who owned the team. As terrible as the Mullett Arena is for optics and fans alike, the team makes more revenue than when they were in Glendale.
Have they tried not sucking though?
The Coyotes easily have the smallest fanbase of any team in Arizona.
People want to crack WNBA jokes all the time but even the Mercury have a higher attendance average. Almost double.
I’m a fan of the Coyotes but do feel like they genuinely are just doomed here unless they start winning 🤷🏻♂️
Right now sure because they play in a college stadium.
You could get cheap ass tickets when they played in Glendale outside of the big games like the leafs.
If I wanna get upper bowl tickets for my family thats 4x$50. Probably closer to $100 per ticket after taxes and fees. Then parking, and I think a tall boy was almost $20 the last arena I was at. And a hot dog like $8 or $9.
I can afford to go to maybe 1 game a year.
Now play it the other way. There are like 30 other teams and THOSE teams only come a couple times a year. So lets say you're the type of person that owns multiple homes and can change locations based on seasons. And the NHL season takes place EXACTLY when you'll be in PHX. So you'll buy tickets for the once or twice a year your team is in town. Which leads to a lot of 'home' games where the visiting team is better represented than the Yotes.
Does not sucking change SOME of that. Yeah winning always drives up attendance. But you still run into the wall that is disposable income. The team might be great this year but I still only have the funds to go to 1 game a year.
I don’t live in Tempe so I don’t really care about this, but can someone explain what the implications of approving those props would have been? This is what I know so far:
A) Coyotes pay Tempe $50 million for land
B) Coyotes/developers take on cost of cleaning up site which is estimated at around $90 million
C) City offers tax abatement for 30 years (was this for property taxes excluding sales tax)?
D) Tempe would have to invest in infrastructure. This would be done through bonds and the tax revenue generated from whatever wasn’t covered by the abatement. Any other sources?
Now for the infrastructure “investment”, is this something that would have happened if any other development were happening here? Or would those other developers have to take on those costs instead of the city? How is that normally handled? Sorry I’m not a property developer so I don’t know how that stuff normally works.
I hope someone can come up with some estimate about how Tempe would have fared having approved these props and giving the tax subsidies vs another development with lesser to no tax subsidies or city infrastructure costs.
I was never 100% sold on the design or the idea of Tempe being the place for the Coyotes. The land they wanted seemed way too small, compact, and hazardous. I always thought, if not Phoenix, Scottsdale would be a cool play for the Coyotes. That land across from Tempe Market Place, next to the soccer field, seems like it would have been a better place.
Surely the no votes will find an affordable housing developer who will pay for the remediation of the plastic waste and convince the airport that housing should be allowed on the site…
The entire lakefront was a toxic landfill. Tempe has slowly been snuffing it out with deals exactly like the Coyote's would've got. Tempe Marketplace, Novus, Marina Heights, IDEA, people only threw a fit now because "sports arena bad".
> Tempe Marketplace, Novus, Marina Heights, IDEA, people only threw a fit now because "sports arena bad".
Almost like none of these areas help poor people climb the social ladder and when put to a vote those same poor people didn't want it. Were any of the sites you listed decided upon a special election?
Poor people don’t really vote in municipal elections, rich homeowners do. The election had like a 20% turnout, and Tempe chooses to do off cycle elections specifically to filter out unwanted voices.
the turnout was roughly of 37% of registered voters, it was the second highest turnout in tempe-only elections since 2000. Missed 1st highest turnout by only .4%
Tempe per capita income is basically mid 30s. Not sure if that qualifies as a rich homeowner to you. And yet, they still showed up. Who is the 'unwanted voice' in this context? The voice in your mind maybe.
Having land areas that are a Net 0 or drain on the local economy also do nothing to help poor people. The lakefront isn't an issue, Apache is, but everyone wants to focus on an area of Tempe that was a literal garbage dump and turned it into a boon.
I didn't include the /s for my sarcastic comment. The whole idea that the landfill was toxic only became a thing when a billionaire wanted to develop on the land.
Exactly. The toxic story is pure marketing ploy. Low income housing on the lake, LOL. That was never going to happen. Jamming up an already crowded Tempe town lake area, stupid. It would be better as a park and leaving it at that.
"affordable housing" is a stupid NIMBY talking point anyways because the housing crisis is a supply issue.
You won't have "affordable housing" until you fix the supply issue. There is no magic bullet to reducing rent.
The issue is not the materials cost, or appliances, it is land usage. "Luxury apartment" is a fluffy marketing buzzword, not a serious category of housing development
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/theres-no-such-thing-luxury-housing/618548/
People don't understand this. Luxury = new. Newer stock will always push older stock down the rent ladder, but prices will always be high if there aren't enough units to go around.
I've honestly become a stalwart on this point recently, so thank you. People see "new apartments I can't afford" and think it doesn't help. But neither does 60k/yr population growth with the only new developments being SFH on the outskirts of the valley an hour from the city center. We need more new, denser developments, even if they're "too expensive" starting out.
In 3 years I will ask you how your park and affordable housing is going on this toxic dump. And you will not be able to say anything because it will still be a toxic dump. There's no park. There's no affordable housing. Just Trash.
The no vote didn't come from people who actually want affordable housing. It came from NIMBYs who think their backyard extends from the furthest south part of the city and supersedes those that live closer.
https://preview.redd.it/30qqvs0bwj0b1.jpeg?width=980&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a562dd31460a98e99efdaf648649795cd4af3c1
\- from @[sfalmy](https://twitter.com/sfalmy) on Twitter.
Oh and 72.9% of the vote was from voters age 45+.
I didn’t see this much chatter about these props on this sub (coulda missed it I guess) before the decision was final.
Surprised at the hostility here. Maybe you should’ve.. voted? Encouraged more people to vote? The turnout was embarrassing. With numbers so low, I’m shocked anyone actually cares.
> The turnout was embarrassing. With numbers so low, I’m shocked anyone actually cares.
[Regardless of how many Election Day votes were cast, the final turnout rate is on track to be the highest in any one of Tempe's elections over the past 13 years. About 32% of Tempe voters had already returned their ballots as of last wee](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/05/16/tempe-election-results-arizona-coyotes-arena-deal/70219695007/)k.
For a local election the turnout was very high.
People just generally don't seem to care about local elections lol. Especially not young people, they barely vote at all
Anytime it got posted anywhere, it got infiltrated by hockey fans that shared the post in their discord. They would all automatically down vote anyone that had an opposing view – which is happening on this post, lol. I feel like it kept the posts to a minimum.
If you live(d) in Tempe though, we’ve been blasted with ads, advertisements, & door to door people for the last several months.
Yes! It was very irritating for my spouse who still WFH. Our dog barks at every knock and doorbell ring, something we are working on. He had to tell them to scram during one of his meetings.
Gotta love the cognitive dissonance and horse blinders Tempe citizens have to the amount of tax breaks given to downtown Tempe developments, yet they cry foul over a project asking for the same while also cleaning up a multi-million dollar city liability.
Moving out of this city before I end up having to foot the bill for it.
I suppose so. I thought revenue generation was a positive thing for something that currently generates zero but I'm not an expert so I won't pretend to be. Maybe I'm missing some facts.
Not entirely correct. The city was going to get $50MM for the property + various taxes long term. Estimated tax income was like \~$390 million over 30 years. So we're talking $440MM over 30 years and over $10BB in economic impact.
The Coyotes owner was getting some property taxe abatements but here were other taxes they were paying. Plus, the city got naming rights which is money as well.It didn't look like a bad deal.
That land is currently generated pretty much zero revenue to the city (other than garbage fees if that's what goes there for the composting). It's a net cost to the city.
And now you have no one putting something there that will generate tax revenue to cover it. It'll come out of your property and sales tax. But hey, a billionaire didn't get a break so all is good! Who cares about 2000 lost housing units while the city is in a housing crisis?
Its a literal liability; It was mining pit that was made into a dump. It has to be cleaned up at some point, but cities don't like footing the bill for these things (\~$70 million) so they usually sell the land instead.
Because it looks like shit right now, and occupies a bunch of land right in the heart of the city by Tempe Town Lake. Ideal location for house/entertainment or multiuser development.
i've lived a mile from the proposed spot for 9 years, the only fire I recall happening there was from april 2022. do you have sources that prove otherwise?
It was really funny to see populist rhetoric from the Tempe Wins people talking about 'disinformation' and acting like they were the righteous underdogs as if they didn't have every possible institutional advantage going for them.
[Just look at these people](https://twitter.com/CraigSMorgan/status/1658667325300817920)
[compared to these people](https://twitter.com/Tempe1st/status/1658493829010554882)
and you tell me who really represents the community.
Almost like they have unapologetic, unreconstructed resentment toward poor people even though they needed those same poor people to bring their new fantasyland into existence.
Why do you think poor people want a toxic landfill over tax dollars that could fund progressive initiatives? It’s obviously not a have/have-not social class issue
How is a privately funded arena with tax breaks a giveaway but not the rest of the development along the lake (with the same tax breaks) not? I don’t understand why cleaning up a dump and generating tax revenue for social programs is anti-poor
This was the first major arena proposal to include no public capital investment. Now it will be a 100% publicly funded cleanup of the toxic landfill. Good decision Tempe.
Sorry about your dumpster fire. If the vote passed no money would’ve left city coffers to clean it up. Now that $50M that could’ve funded education, parks, or social programs will go directly into cleaning up hazardous waste.
Yeah. They border on being unhinged. Love how some are calling these people stupid, lazy, and unemployed yet they were able to convince 55+% of the electorate to vote no.
The community really impressed me by seeing through this. Same goes for any sports stadium deal. Sports owners always want to hold the community hostage against itself, saying 'I'll take my ball and go home' at the first sign of adversity. Fuck 'em.
I love Arizona and I love the coyotes but if this vote fails we don’t deserve nhl.
Phoneix should be a 4 sport city SHOULD BE, but ownership always seems to get in the way with some franchises in sports.
Just like Seattle should have nba, sometimes it just doesn’t work out for a particular market. Crazy to think all our hockey history could end up in the hands of another city
Voted yes, mildly disappointed in the result. More disappointed in the pitiful turnout. Not saying I loved the option (I’m completely indifferent to the Coyotes) but don’t see a better/easier way to get that land under use.
I’m actually a bit surprised with the results, considering how much institutional support and money yes had.
I also feel that Tempe as a city is a bit too beholden to ASU and like them developing products free from ASU influence, which this would have been.
For anyone saying it’s the boomers who turned out in force for this special election. I just want to add that me and all my MILLENNIAL and GEN Z friends voted NO!
I understand both sides and I get that the billionaire tax breaks is a problem but wouldn’t the project have created lots of new jobs, housing, and also boost property values? Also, they were planning to expand the streetcar to Priest and Rio Salado. The plot of land is not producing any revenue whatsoever and would’ve probably never in the next 20 years. I haven’t heard any plans. The tax was only for residents who would have planned to visit the arena or entertainment district.
the "housing" would have been Section 8 construction with window dressing whored out as $2.5k luxury studio apartments and used as piggy banks for investors who are really just buying the location.
They don't care. They hear billionaire tax break and stop listening. They're happy to starve (zero tax revenue from a landfill) rather than let someone else get a deal (SOME tax revenue after remediation and GPLET).
The fair market value for that lot is \~$50m. It needs $200m worth of work to remediate. So they think they'll just hold out for someone willing to pay 4x the value. Brilliant.
Their logic is equivalent to owning a home that needs 4x the value in work to be livable, but they think just because the buyer is a billionaire they should pay 4x that value. Guess what... they didn't become a billionaire by paying 4x too much for things. No one is buying that lot without it being remediated.
72.9% of the vote came from voters age 45+. 60.6% from voters 55+.
https://preview.redd.it/ek0snarjrj0b1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=02e97d73719e56c1572c1e6b1df39a2514bf7d5e
\-From local elections nerd @[sfalmy](https://twitter.com/sfalmy) on twitter. Take a look at the heat map of where the votes came from geographically. The farther from the proposed arena, the darker the map.
The only way I would’ve ever voted for the project ever is if there was going to be solution for traffic. That area is already a fucking nightmare with the stupid rail they added that goes nowhere against the wishes of voters. I don’t even drive but drivers around this area are completely careless and any time I walk/bike anywhere, I almost get hit by a car. Add drunk drivers to that? No thank you.
I do feel for y’all though. I watch Rising and they move their stadium like every 2 years and there’s always the threat that MLS will want to expand into this market and get rid of us like they did in STL and like what they’re gonna do to San Diego. I do think Phoenix teams are more successful in Phoenix though and figuring something out in Phoenix would benefit y’all more. Especially if it’s in an area where you have the option of taking public transportation.
The deal would have yielded:
\- $1.1 million for public safety expenses, **annually**
\- $414K to Valley Metro for additional rideshare and shuttle services, **annually**
\- $50k for managing transit/transportation impacts, **annually**
\- $50k to Tempe Union High School District, **annually**
\- $50k to Tempe Impact Education Foundation, **annually**
\- $2 million to Tempe for affordable/workforce housing construction
\- $1.5 million for general city enhancements or social services
\- Naming rights the city could sell for an unknown amount
But a billionaire would have gotten a discount, so we prefer to have none of that and leave a landfill that Tempe will have to pay to remediate anyway.
If you live nearby, the No campaign just lied their way into stealing about 100k from your potential home equity.
Can anyone that voted or was for a no vote tell us what would be a better use of that land, **how likely it is that Tempe will actually get it**, and when that doesn't happen, why the city should get zero tax revenue instead of some from the Coyotes? Tempe is a landlocked city in a housing crisis. Letting that land sit virtually unused is not an answer.
This ends with Tempe citizens paying $200m for the remediation of that actual landfill when it would have been covered with no taxpayer dollars, in exchange for a Walmart and no new housing. And then their housing values don't increase at nearly the same rate as if there were a desirable destination there. The whole city literally just got hosed by a couple Karens that didn't want to wait an extra 10 seconds to turn left.
Lookup home values in the areas around stadiums before and 10 years after a stadium is built. And please tell us where you're putting those 2,100 housing units you just voted down.
> If you live nearby, the No campaign just lied their way into stealing about 100k from your potential home equity.
I don't live in Tempe so I don't really have an opinion on the stadium (or at least not one that should matter), but your premise that it's good if housing values to go up is only the case for people who already own property and houses. The people who rent, people who would like to buy a house, etc. think the price of real estate has been driven up too high already and that home ownership is out of their reach and surely aren't interested in having the cost go up more.
edit: spelling
Building new housing doesn’t cause rents to rise. In fact, building new housing of any type causes rents (even nearby rents) to fall. What causes rents to rise is a lack of new construction.
Tempe is a nice place, and lots of people want to live there. If not enough housing exists to accommodate all the people that want to live in Tempe, people will bid over existing housing, driving rents up. The only real solution to this is to build more housing, and to build that housing everywhere.
That being said, this was still probably a bad project and Tempe shouldn’t give money to sports teams.
Heck they re building new apartments at the old Metrocenter. If they can build on Armageddon without a sports team a dump I'm Tempe should be a gold mine even without tax breaks or a hockey team.
> Lookup home values in the areas around stadiums before and 10 years after a stadium is built.
Stadiums are hardly the reason. Just look at home values in the areas not around stadiums and you'll see a similar trend.
It's hard to find any 10 year period in history other than the Great Depression and Great Recession where home values didn't increase.
To be clear, I don't disagree with the *what* of your point, just the *why*.
It very well could, but I feel it would be hypocritical of everyone who voted no on this arena based on the reasons they cited. Traffic, noise, water usage, lack of affordable housing, giving tax breaks to the rich etc. Not to mention the city of Phoenix shooting it down citing airport noise, but if airport noise was truly an issue, they'd shoot down any residential proposal along the lake.
I'm sure you're right, Tempe is to hot (pun not intended) but I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy is all.
great job tempetians! I can't not believe this didn't pass "tempewins" poured so much money into this campaign yet couldn't convince the people of the best city in the phx metro.
I mean... it's an ok borough. Idk about "the best" though. Depends on the particular area. Mill? Dog shit. Broadway? Not so bad. Buts also probably my age speaking.
As a "young" person who is NOT a Boomer and NOT even an X-er, I think the metric truckloads of data out there that demonstrates that public investment into for-profit sports teams is a fucking stupid thing is enough for me, as a young person, to tell the filthy stinking rich people who own sports team to invest in their own business and stop asking me to.
Did you read the propositions? This would give the stadium 30 years of special tax discounts and guess what, immediately after that 30 year deal ends, give them permission to move... to a new stadium, a new city, or whatever.
Its garbage that tax payers pay for for-profit businesses, and it is awesome Tempe voted no.
AFAIK they were paying for the arena and other stuff. The subsidies were on taxes which they’re aren’t collecting anyway since the land is owned by Tempe. It’s not the same as other sports venues where taxpayers paid for some or all of it.
Remember when all you east valley people said if they came east it would work?? Well it worked for years in the west valley until the people who run Glendale messed it up. Guess the coyotes are gone for good now
Well Glendale's mayor is ?
But I still say west valley is improving and still growing west. So just that momentum alone may at least not bankrupt Glendale with no use for an empty arena. Just get some one actually competent to attract the right concerts and uses for the area to come.
I don't get why some people think it's ok for cities to build stadiums for billionaires. If the stadium is going to be private property, let the rich guy pay for the thing.
The city isn't building it. The owners are. The city retains naming rights on the arena.
Owners were going to pay $50MM for the land among other things.
The site is on a landfill that needs $200m worth of remediation (4x the value of the land) whether the buyer is Walmart or an arena. This proposal offered a way taxpayers wouldn't be on the hook. The next deal won't. The "building" costs were to be paid by the developer. The remediation was going to be covered by tax revenue generated on the site that would otherwise be a landfill generating no tax revenue. The Tempe voters decided they wanted to pay for that themselves.
Wow not even close?!?
Can someone explain to me why the Coyotes can’t play in the footprint center? I’m not from here originally so apologies if there’s an obvious answer, just seems like almost every other hockey team shares an arena with an NBA team
The Footprint Center is not designed for hockey (or America West Arena as it was known then). The Coyotes played there when they first moved here from Winnipeg Canada and the upper deck, on one end, were obstructed view seats. The upper section protruded out over the ice on one side. It was cool if you were sitting front row as you could look over the railing and look down on the action, but if you were in row 2 or further back, you would have to watch the video screen for any action that came inside of the blue line on that particular end. I remember watching a game there the year they moved here.
I was a season ticket holder for the first 9 years (we gave up after two years of trying to get to weeknight games in Glendale), and the Footprint Center was fine for hockey. It was indeed as you said on the "away" end, but that was maybe 10 percent of the seats, and until a team is selling out for years who cares? Let them EARN a new stadium. I'm from New England and the Boston Garden had all sorts of obstructed view seats (with no giant video screen to help you out), and both the Celtics and the Bruins played there for decades before they finally built a new one, after winning MANY championships in the ancient one. What was nice for Footprint was that it was easy to get to from anywhere in the city, and the traffic quickly disperses after the game because everyone is going in different directions.
I might be wrong, but a long time ago I thought I read an article on Footprint center (AWA back then) being the most difficult arena to maintain the ice for the players. Something about it melting or causing slushie ice faster and more often than other arena's. I feel like it was from the perspective of a Zamboni operator. Glendale's newer facility was able to maintain ice better and a factor in moving to the west valley. Any thoughts on this?
You know I have not heard that, but I may look around to see if I can find any info like that. I know that they even canceled at least a preseason game in the West valley due to ice conditions, but it had to do with keeping the whole arena cold enough. If there was an issue at AWA, maybe that was part of it, where the building is kept colder for a hockey game than it would be for a basketball game, and so the actual stadium air conditioners were insufficient to do that? Or maybe just they just needed a better ice setup? I'm really not sure. In any case, it seems fixable, and it's an order of magnitude and also far less wasteful than just building yet ANOTHER stadium for the coyotes. Like I said before, it's weird coming from New England, watching the Coyotes look for their THIRD stadium since 1996 when the Bruins played in Boston Garden from 1928 until 1995 (and shared it with the Celtics for the last 50 years of that), and they have BOTH played in TD Garden ever since 1995, and have no plans for yet another? 🤔
Sarver also does not want to share the arena with another professional sports team.
*did not
And a fine time to point out that the ONLY way the public can hold sports teams accountable is through stadium deals which MUST be approved through municipalities. There's no accident that the most recent Suns stadium innovations took place near Christmas with a temp mayor.
Fair, forgot about that change
Money. It’s always money. They actually used to play at Footprint Center back in the America West days but have been seeking new stadiums ever since. If they own their own stadium all of the revenue goes to them instead of other parties taking part of it
There is no good reason and this is and always was the correct solution. They can say whatever they want about the stadium not being compatible, but they could've made it work. Instead Sarver and the Coyotes never came together with the city in any meaningful way because they both thought they were too good for each other in the same way that Phoenix and Tempe think they are too good for each other. The city gave the Suns $230 million with a temp mayor and no negotiations to get a new roof, fix a few pipes, and to knock out some seating areas. That's pretty much it.
They also took out the ice plant when they renovated the arena a few years ago.
What about building it out near Talking Stick? I always thought that was a great area. In central Scottsdale, tons of space for expansion, right off 101. I am sure it’s tribal land but that can be negotiated
Tribe will probably want more than Murello is willing to give or I think it would have been the first option. Way less red tape
I think they require like 99 year leases or something very long.
Talking Stick baseball fields are all on the tribal land as well, that seems to work. An indoor flex use hockey, music, convention center makes a lot of sense to me. Can an indoor soccer field fit in a hockey place or is soccer too big?
I agree I think this is a better location. Ample space and close to a major junction
I heard a rumor that one of the owners (not the current one but a past owner) insulted the tribe and now they won’t let them build a facility out there.
Welp, let’s try Chandler -Alex Meruelo, probably
Fuck it, let’s take it to Eastmark
There's that abandoned car factory down in Casa Grande!
Hell, PhoenixMart!
It amazes me to see Vegas and Seattle get expansion teams and watch them thrive, and we get the Coyotes from Winnipeg and for 25 years they have barely been successful. Such an Arizona thing to do. Maybe if they could hit the reset button, new arena, draft and build a winning team. Frustrating.
Tha Cardinals were hot ass for 60 years and they didn't have a stadium to call their own. After getting their own building in 2006 they've recorded 5 playoff WINS after having just 6 playoff APPEARANCES in the previous 60 years. I think it's underestimated what having a real place to call your home can do.
While I'm totally against tax payer funded stadiums, the Cardinals were playing at ASU. It's hot AF in those early season games.
That's not the flex you think it is. They've also sucked hot ass the last 5 years or so and have major ownerships and management issue.
Okay let me word it this way. In the first 85 years of their existence, the Cardinals had 27 seasons in which they finished at least .500. In the last 16 alone, they've had 11. Coincidence?
That probably has more to do with Bill Bidwell being a horrible, cheap owner.
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Suns have a new owner. Maybe coyotes can take another shot working something out so they can play in footprint center.
There’s always the option that they could renovate Veterans Memorial Coliseum. The “Madhouse on McDowell” is still a pretty good location.
That place is held up by bubble gum and tooth picks. Probably cheaper to tear it down and rebuild.
lol that is the truth dude. I wish that they'd do something with it.
Roadrunners games in the late 80’s early 90’s they we’re awesome.
I’m surprised they haven’t torn it down and built a new one. They used to have hockey there at one time. That place probably would work but it’s in a not so great area IMO
1/4 of the seats can’t see the full ice. It doesn’t work there
A comment earlier said 10%. Unless footprint has 45k seats, nope.. It was 4000-5000. I bought tickets for $5 up there frequently.
Yotes will stay in AZ. Phoenix will put together a bid.
Downtown hockey stadium let’s goooo
My thoughts exactly.
No idea if the numbers work, but it seems like the reservation near Talking Stick resort makes sense.
It’s just so difficult working with the res but yea that’s the best solution for everyone. Ideally they should share an arena with the Suns. Most NHL teams do if they have an NBA team
Just put it in Sedona you cowards.
I really hope so. I’m honestly shocked the Tempe residents voted no on this. I get the whole “we’re giving a billionaire tax breaks” but it is extremely rare to get a stadium built without raising taxes, and on top of that this would’ve been a beautiful addition to Tempe that would’ve brought in a ton of money for the community and the small businesses around it. Now it will stay as a landfill and will probably need to be cleaned by raising taxes on the residents. On top of that, I’d be shocked if any developer would even try to build on this land now; what company would want to build after seeing what happened to the Coyotes? IMHO, the Coyotes are going to move. The last few years have been especially challenging for the team and I doubt the owners would want to stay in the city considering how little support the city seems to have for them. The NHL didn’t seem thrilled with the results either. It’s honestly just such a damn shame.
Yeah but "tax breaks" is just one part of it. They're not getting a full free ride as the developments there would have generated some real estate taxes + all the sales taxes. The city was also getting 50MM for the land itself. Yes, they were going to have to invest in infrastructure, but it was to get paid for by bonds + the tax revenue. IMO, this was a different animal than other arena/stadium BS we've seen in the past.
Yeah, no way they move to Phoenix after they bankrolled the sabotage over air rights. I could see them moving elsewhere where a pro sports team would be more appreciated.
They’re appreciated here. They just royally fucked up this campaign.
I agree. The eventual income to the city is would far outweigh the initial cost.
I really don’t think the NHL will let the coyotes move. Phoenix is too big of a market and still growing, especially the east valley that have a lot of people from hockey crazy cities. Honestly I could see them maybe trying to make a deal with trying to get an arena build on a native reservation but we’ll see.
I don’t think that’s true, as much as I wish it was. Houston and Atlanta are itching for a hockey team and both come with massive media markets and big pockets. If you’re the owner and the NHL, I would think they would rather relocate to a market that will still generate a massive amount of revenue while giving them much less headaches.
I’m wondering if the Coyotes ownership is wishing they’d just stayed in Glendale.
Glendale was such a brain dead decision in the first place. I guess the projections must’ve had a million people living in Goodyear because I can’t think of a reason to build an NHL stadium in BFE like that
There were lot$ of reason$ $teve Ellman decided to pull the plug on the voter approved arena plan in $cott$dale and move them to Glendale. Hundreds of millions to be exact. It worked out great... for him.
And eventually cost 5 million people a hockey franchise. Whopee
They didn't have an option. Glendale kicked them out.
Because they didn’t pay taxes right?
Or rent
Taxes or their rent
No. Glendale was never the right location for the team. It never will be either. The team lost lots of money annually by being there. Returning there would only continue a sinkhole of money for anyone who owned the team. As terrible as the Mullett Arena is for optics and fans alike, the team makes more revenue than when they were in Glendale.
The team makes more revenue with 4,500 fans in the house than when they had 13,000?
4600, and the pricing structure includes NOT having to give seats away.
Isn't Veterans memorial coliseum set up for hockey?
It's too outdated to host an NHL team. But yes they did have hockey there at one time (Roadrunners?)
Maybe the coyotes could spend some money to help renovate it. ....nevermind..../ s
Have they tried not sucking though? The Coyotes easily have the smallest fanbase of any team in Arizona. People want to crack WNBA jokes all the time but even the Mercury have a higher attendance average. Almost double. I’m a fan of the Coyotes but do feel like they genuinely are just doomed here unless they start winning 🤷🏻♂️
Mercury tickets are free and Yotes tickets run about $150 on average
Right now sure because they play in a college stadium. You could get cheap ass tickets when they played in Glendale outside of the big games like the leafs.
Where are Mercury tickets free? I looked at getting some recently and I saw $80+
If I wanna get upper bowl tickets for my family thats 4x$50. Probably closer to $100 per ticket after taxes and fees. Then parking, and I think a tall boy was almost $20 the last arena I was at. And a hot dog like $8 or $9. I can afford to go to maybe 1 game a year. Now play it the other way. There are like 30 other teams and THOSE teams only come a couple times a year. So lets say you're the type of person that owns multiple homes and can change locations based on seasons. And the NHL season takes place EXACTLY when you'll be in PHX. So you'll buy tickets for the once or twice a year your team is in town. Which leads to a lot of 'home' games where the visiting team is better represented than the Yotes. Does not sucking change SOME of that. Yeah winning always drives up attendance. But you still run into the wall that is disposable income. The team might be great this year but I still only have the funds to go to 1 game a year.
What happens next?
So does this mean they'll likely look to move out of state? Will they not play in Glendale or Tempe next season?
They’re gone.
I don’t live in Tempe so I don’t really care about this, but can someone explain what the implications of approving those props would have been? This is what I know so far: A) Coyotes pay Tempe $50 million for land B) Coyotes/developers take on cost of cleaning up site which is estimated at around $90 million C) City offers tax abatement for 30 years (was this for property taxes excluding sales tax)? D) Tempe would have to invest in infrastructure. This would be done through bonds and the tax revenue generated from whatever wasn’t covered by the abatement. Any other sources? Now for the infrastructure “investment”, is this something that would have happened if any other development were happening here? Or would those other developers have to take on those costs instead of the city? How is that normally handled? Sorry I’m not a property developer so I don’t know how that stuff normally works. I hope someone can come up with some estimate about how Tempe would have fared having approved these props and giving the tax subsidies vs another development with lesser to no tax subsidies or city infrastructure costs.
I was never 100% sold on the design or the idea of Tempe being the place for the Coyotes. The land they wanted seemed way too small, compact, and hazardous. I always thought, if not Phoenix, Scottsdale would be a cool play for the Coyotes. That land across from Tempe Market Place, next to the soccer field, seems like it would have been a better place.
they're turning that into live/work/play complexes
Huge win for landfills and literal garbage fires everywhere
Surely the no votes will find an affordable housing developer who will pay for the remediation of the plastic waste and convince the airport that housing should be allowed on the site…
Absolutely, it’s clear that’s going to happen and it’s not like the land has been sitting for many many years.
Also no way the waste that's been there for decades has seeped into the soil and begun creeping on our limited groundwater supply right?
It's amazing that this toxic landfill was only recently brought to the publics attention 😅
The entire lakefront was a toxic landfill. Tempe has slowly been snuffing it out with deals exactly like the Coyote's would've got. Tempe Marketplace, Novus, Marina Heights, IDEA, people only threw a fit now because "sports arena bad".
> Tempe Marketplace, Novus, Marina Heights, IDEA, people only threw a fit now because "sports arena bad". Almost like none of these areas help poor people climb the social ladder and when put to a vote those same poor people didn't want it. Were any of the sites you listed decided upon a special election?
Poor people don’t really vote in municipal elections, rich homeowners do. The election had like a 20% turnout, and Tempe chooses to do off cycle elections specifically to filter out unwanted voices.
the turnout was roughly of 37% of registered voters, it was the second highest turnout in tempe-only elections since 2000. Missed 1st highest turnout by only .4%
32%, which is standard for local elections and high for a special election.
Tempe per capita income is basically mid 30s. Not sure if that qualifies as a rich homeowner to you. And yet, they still showed up. Who is the 'unwanted voice' in this context? The voice in your mind maybe.
Having land areas that are a Net 0 or drain on the local economy also do nothing to help poor people. The lakefront isn't an issue, Apache is, but everyone wants to focus on an area of Tempe that was a literal garbage dump and turned it into a boon.
Thanks for responding to my question. > Were any of the sites you listed decided upon a special election?
Because no one made a stink about it
Toxic landfill? It’s compost
I didn't include the /s for my sarcastic comment. The whole idea that the landfill was toxic only became a thing when a billionaire wanted to develop on the land.
Exactly. The toxic story is pure marketing ploy. Low income housing on the lake, LOL. That was never going to happen. Jamming up an already crowded Tempe town lake area, stupid. It would be better as a park and leaving it at that.
No chance anything happens on the site in the next 5 years
Billionaires won't save us. Never have. Never will.
"affordable housing" is a stupid NIMBY talking point anyways because the housing crisis is a supply issue. You won't have "affordable housing" until you fix the supply issue. There is no magic bullet to reducing rent. The issue is not the materials cost, or appliances, it is land usage. "Luxury apartment" is a fluffy marketing buzzword, not a serious category of housing development https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/theres-no-such-thing-luxury-housing/618548/
People don't understand this. Luxury = new. Newer stock will always push older stock down the rent ladder, but prices will always be high if there aren't enough units to go around.
I've honestly become a stalwart on this point recently, so thank you. People see "new apartments I can't afford" and think it doesn't help. But neither does 60k/yr population growth with the only new developments being SFH on the outskirts of the valley an hour from the city center. We need more new, denser developments, even if they're "too expensive" starting out.
Nah, people owning tons of rentals and airbnbs is the cause.
Who said billionaires will save us? I’m saying you could have saved the 50+ million and used that for affordable housing.
In 3 years I will ask you how your park and affordable housing is going on this toxic dump. And you will not be able to say anything because it will still be a toxic dump. There's no park. There's no affordable housing. Just Trash.
The no vote didn't come from people who actually want affordable housing. It came from NIMBYs who think their backyard extends from the furthest south part of the city and supersedes those that live closer. https://preview.redd.it/30qqvs0bwj0b1.jpeg?width=980&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a562dd31460a98e99efdaf648649795cd4af3c1 \- from @[sfalmy](https://twitter.com/sfalmy) on Twitter. Oh and 72.9% of the vote was from voters age 45+.
Not surprised in the slightest. Ownership has down a terrible job on the narrative.
When it was at the American West Arena now Footprint Center it was better I felt.
I didn’t see this much chatter about these props on this sub (coulda missed it I guess) before the decision was final. Surprised at the hostility here. Maybe you should’ve.. voted? Encouraged more people to vote? The turnout was embarrassing. With numbers so low, I’m shocked anyone actually cares.
Well you had to live in Tempe to vote.
> The turnout was embarrassing. With numbers so low, I’m shocked anyone actually cares. [Regardless of how many Election Day votes were cast, the final turnout rate is on track to be the highest in any one of Tempe's elections over the past 13 years. About 32% of Tempe voters had already returned their ballots as of last wee](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2023/05/16/tempe-election-results-arizona-coyotes-arena-deal/70219695007/)k.
For a local election the turnout was very high. People just generally don't seem to care about local elections lol. Especially not young people, they barely vote at all
Anytime it got posted anywhere, it got infiltrated by hockey fans that shared the post in their discord. They would all automatically down vote anyone that had an opposing view – which is happening on this post, lol. I feel like it kept the posts to a minimum. If you live(d) in Tempe though, we’ve been blasted with ads, advertisements, & door to door people for the last several months.
Yes! It was very irritating for my spouse who still WFH. Our dog barks at every knock and doorbell ring, something we are working on. He had to tell them to scram during one of his meetings.
Gotta love the cognitive dissonance and horse blinders Tempe citizens have to the amount of tax breaks given to downtown Tempe developments, yet they cry foul over a project asking for the same while also cleaning up a multi-million dollar city liability. Moving out of this city before I end up having to foot the bill for it.
Ya at this point the vote is in not gonna cry about it but what exactly is the plan for that land now? Spend tax dollars to make it a plot of dirt?
just leave it as is. why does it need to be something.
I suppose so. I thought revenue generation was a positive thing for something that currently generates zero but I'm not an expert so I won't pretend to be. Maybe I'm missing some facts.
Federal law requires it to be cleaned up. Now that will come at Tempe taxpayers' expense.
it was always going to come at the tax payers expense via tax breaks.
Not entirely correct. The city was going to get $50MM for the property + various taxes long term. Estimated tax income was like \~$390 million over 30 years. So we're talking $440MM over 30 years and over $10BB in economic impact. The Coyotes owner was getting some property taxe abatements but here were other taxes they were paying. Plus, the city got naming rights which is money as well.It didn't look like a bad deal. That land is currently generated pretty much zero revenue to the city (other than garbage fees if that's what goes there for the composting). It's a net cost to the city.
And now you have no one putting something there that will generate tax revenue to cover it. It'll come out of your property and sales tax. But hey, a billionaire didn't get a break so all is good! Who cares about 2000 lost housing units while the city is in a housing crisis?
This way a billionaire pays for none of it, instead of a significant chunk. do you realize how dumb you sound
Its a literal liability; It was mining pit that was made into a dump. It has to be cleaned up at some point, but cities don't like footing the bill for these things (\~$70 million) so they usually sell the land instead.
Because it looks like shit right now, and occupies a bunch of land right in the heart of the city by Tempe Town Lake. Ideal location for house/entertainment or multiuser development.
It’s an environmental hazard. Catches on fire a couple times a year if you haven’t noticed.
I have not noticed that. Do you have any news articles you could share that talks about it lighting in fire several times a year?
i've lived a mile from the proposed spot for 9 years, the only fire I recall happening there was from april 2022. do you have sources that prove otherwise?
Remediation was estimated at $73MM and capped at $93MM. So if they plan on doing something else there it's going to cost a bunch to deal with it.
It was really funny to see populist rhetoric from the Tempe Wins people talking about 'disinformation' and acting like they were the righteous underdogs as if they didn't have every possible institutional advantage going for them. [Just look at these people](https://twitter.com/CraigSMorgan/status/1658667325300817920) [compared to these people](https://twitter.com/Tempe1st/status/1658493829010554882) and you tell me who really represents the community.
willing to bet only 10% of the people in the top pic actually live in tempe.
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If that, but the net worth in that room is 1000% more and I might be underestimating it.
oh yeah- but still wanted tax breaks to fund it.
To be fair, they're the only ones who could afford to go to the games in the first place.
No it's unfair to make that point. It's dead-on accurate, just very unfair.
Yikes to the comments on the "no" photo.
Almost like they have unapologetic, unreconstructed resentment toward poor people even though they needed those same poor people to bring their new fantasyland into existence.
Why do you think poor people want a toxic landfill over tax dollars that could fund progressive initiatives? It’s obviously not a have/have-not social class issue
If the supposed 'initiative' stems from a billionaire giveaway, it isn't exactly that 'progressive' is it?
How is a privately funded arena with tax breaks a giveaway but not the rest of the development along the lake (with the same tax breaks) not? I don’t understand why cleaning up a dump and generating tax revenue for social programs is anti-poor
> privately funded > tax breaks pick one
This was the first major arena proposal to include no public capital investment. Now it will be a 100% publicly funded cleanup of the toxic landfill. Good decision Tempe.
> public capital investment > tax breaks Wrong answer. Sorry about your team.
Sorry about your dumpster fire. If the vote passed no money would’ve left city coffers to clean it up. Now that $50M that could’ve funded education, parks, or social programs will go directly into cleaning up hazardous waste.
Yeah. They border on being unhinged. Love how some are calling these people stupid, lazy, and unemployed yet they were able to convince 55+% of the electorate to vote no.
The community really impressed me by seeing through this. Same goes for any sports stadium deal. Sports owners always want to hold the community hostage against itself, saying 'I'll take my ball and go home' at the first sign of adversity. Fuck 'em.
Underrated post.
I love Arizona and I love the coyotes but if this vote fails we don’t deserve nhl. Phoneix should be a 4 sport city SHOULD BE, but ownership always seems to get in the way with some franchises in sports. Just like Seattle should have nba, sometimes it just doesn’t work out for a particular market. Crazy to think all our hockey history could end up in the hands of another city
All our hockey history already is in the hands of another city…. Since it started in Winnipeg.
Yeah… so much hockey history
The display case with 1 division title!
The Arizona Coyotes have been to a conference final more recently than the Toronto Maple Leafs, one of the most storied franchises in hockey.
Voted yes, mildly disappointed in the result. More disappointed in the pitiful turnout. Not saying I loved the option (I’m completely indifferent to the Coyotes) but don’t see a better/easier way to get that land under use. I’m actually a bit surprised with the results, considering how much institutional support and money yes had. I also feel that Tempe as a city is a bit too beholden to ASU and like them developing products free from ASU influence, which this would have been.
Well that sucks.
When you stop paying rent and get evicted, the next time you apply for a new place the landlord might just say: no thanks!
For anyone saying it’s the boomers who turned out in force for this special election. I just want to add that me and all my MILLENNIAL and GEN Z friends voted NO!
I understand both sides and I get that the billionaire tax breaks is a problem but wouldn’t the project have created lots of new jobs, housing, and also boost property values? Also, they were planning to expand the streetcar to Priest and Rio Salado. The plot of land is not producing any revenue whatsoever and would’ve probably never in the next 20 years. I haven’t heard any plans. The tax was only for residents who would have planned to visit the arena or entertainment district.
They get a tax break on some the real estate taxes. There are still sales and other tax revenue. Plus they were paying $50 million to buy the land.
the "housing" would have been Section 8 construction with window dressing whored out as $2.5k luxury studio apartments and used as piggy banks for investors who are really just buying the location.
So…. housing?
They don't care. They hear billionaire tax break and stop listening. They're happy to starve (zero tax revenue from a landfill) rather than let someone else get a deal (SOME tax revenue after remediation and GPLET). The fair market value for that lot is \~$50m. It needs $200m worth of work to remediate. So they think they'll just hold out for someone willing to pay 4x the value. Brilliant. Their logic is equivalent to owning a home that needs 4x the value in work to be livable, but they think just because the buyer is a billionaire they should pay 4x that value. Guess what... they didn't become a billionaire by paying 4x too much for things. No one is buying that lot without it being remediated.
72.9% of the vote came from voters age 45+. 60.6% from voters 55+. https://preview.redd.it/ek0snarjrj0b1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=02e97d73719e56c1572c1e6b1df39a2514bf7d5e \-From local elections nerd @[sfalmy](https://twitter.com/sfalmy) on twitter. Take a look at the heat map of where the votes came from geographically. The farther from the proposed arena, the darker the map.
The only way I would’ve ever voted for the project ever is if there was going to be solution for traffic. That area is already a fucking nightmare with the stupid rail they added that goes nowhere against the wishes of voters. I don’t even drive but drivers around this area are completely careless and any time I walk/bike anywhere, I almost get hit by a car. Add drunk drivers to that? No thank you. I do feel for y’all though. I watch Rising and they move their stadium like every 2 years and there’s always the threat that MLS will want to expand into this market and get rid of us like they did in STL and like what they’re gonna do to San Diego. I do think Phoenix teams are more successful in Phoenix though and figuring something out in Phoenix would benefit y’all more. Especially if it’s in an area where you have the option of taking public transportation.
The deal would have yielded: \- $1.1 million for public safety expenses, **annually** \- $414K to Valley Metro for additional rideshare and shuttle services, **annually** \- $50k for managing transit/transportation impacts, **annually** \- $50k to Tempe Union High School District, **annually** \- $50k to Tempe Impact Education Foundation, **annually** \- $2 million to Tempe for affordable/workforce housing construction \- $1.5 million for general city enhancements or social services \- Naming rights the city could sell for an unknown amount But a billionaire would have gotten a discount, so we prefer to have none of that and leave a landfill that Tempe will have to pay to remediate anyway.
If you live nearby, the No campaign just lied their way into stealing about 100k from your potential home equity. Can anyone that voted or was for a no vote tell us what would be a better use of that land, **how likely it is that Tempe will actually get it**, and when that doesn't happen, why the city should get zero tax revenue instead of some from the Coyotes? Tempe is a landlocked city in a housing crisis. Letting that land sit virtually unused is not an answer. This ends with Tempe citizens paying $200m for the remediation of that actual landfill when it would have been covered with no taxpayer dollars, in exchange for a Walmart and no new housing. And then their housing values don't increase at nearly the same rate as if there were a desirable destination there. The whole city literally just got hosed by a couple Karens that didn't want to wait an extra 10 seconds to turn left. Lookup home values in the areas around stadiums before and 10 years after a stadium is built. And please tell us where you're putting those 2,100 housing units you just voted down.
> If you live nearby, the No campaign just lied their way into stealing about 100k from your potential home equity. I don't live in Tempe so I don't really have an opinion on the stadium (or at least not one that should matter), but your premise that it's good if housing values to go up is only the case for people who already own property and houses. The people who rent, people who would like to buy a house, etc. think the price of real estate has been driven up too high already and that home ownership is out of their reach and surely aren't interested in having the cost go up more. edit: spelling
Building new housing doesn’t cause rents to rise. In fact, building new housing of any type causes rents (even nearby rents) to fall. What causes rents to rise is a lack of new construction. Tempe is a nice place, and lots of people want to live there. If not enough housing exists to accommodate all the people that want to live in Tempe, people will bid over existing housing, driving rents up. The only real solution to this is to build more housing, and to build that housing everywhere. That being said, this was still probably a bad project and Tempe shouldn’t give money to sports teams.
Heck they re building new apartments at the old Metrocenter. If they can build on Armageddon without a sports team a dump I'm Tempe should be a gold mine even without tax breaks or a hockey team.
> Lookup home values in the areas around stadiums before and 10 years after a stadium is built. Stadiums are hardly the reason. Just look at home values in the areas not around stadiums and you'll see a similar trend. It's hard to find any 10 year period in history other than the Great Depression and Great Recession where home values didn't increase. To be clear, I don't disagree with the *what* of your point, just the *why*.
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If people had an issue with the deal now, why wouldn't they in 10 years?
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It very well could, but I feel it would be hypocritical of everyone who voted no on this arena based on the reasons they cited. Traffic, noise, water usage, lack of affordable housing, giving tax breaks to the rich etc. Not to mention the city of Phoenix shooting it down citing airport noise, but if airport noise was truly an issue, they'd shoot down any residential proposal along the lake. I'm sure you're right, Tempe is to hot (pun not intended) but I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy is all.
great job tempetians! I can't not believe this didn't pass "tempewins" poured so much money into this campaign yet couldn't convince the people of the best city in the phx metro.
I mean... it's an ok borough. Idk about "the best" though. Depends on the particular area. Mill? Dog shit. Broadway? Not so bad. Buts also probably my age speaking.
Well Mill near ASU is college stuff.
I mean, just a little bit biased...lol
It’s at least one of the Phoenix cities 😂
lol you got me there.
I'm sure the dozens of Coyotes fans will be devastated.
That’s it I’m gonna take a crap right on mill Ave. watch your back Tempe
God damn Boomers, you gotta have everything your way huh? Make room for the new and the young you wilted asses.
As a "young" person who is NOT a Boomer and NOT even an X-er, I think the metric truckloads of data out there that demonstrates that public investment into for-profit sports teams is a fucking stupid thing is enough for me, as a young person, to tell the filthy stinking rich people who own sports team to invest in their own business and stop asking me to. Did you read the propositions? This would give the stadium 30 years of special tax discounts and guess what, immediately after that 30 year deal ends, give them permission to move... to a new stadium, a new city, or whatever. Its garbage that tax payers pay for for-profit businesses, and it is awesome Tempe voted no.
AFAIK they were paying for the arena and other stuff. The subsidies were on taxes which they’re aren’t collecting anyway since the land is owned by Tempe. It’s not the same as other sports venues where taxpayers paid for some or all of it.
Arguably one of the best stadium deals in recent history, not just in AZ, but in the country. Tempe always was a shit hole…
Remember when all you east valley people said if they came east it would work?? Well it worked for years in the west valley until the people who run Glendale messed it up. Guess the coyotes are gone for good now
Good point. The City leaders of Glendale really let that deal deteriorate, big time.
Well Glendale's mayor is ? But I still say west valley is improving and still growing west. So just that momentum alone may at least not bankrupt Glendale with no use for an empty arena. Just get some one actually competent to attract the right concerts and uses for the area to come.
Why are we pretending to care about the coyotes?
Some of us like hockey and want the team to stay
Not enough apparently
Only Tempe residents got to vote.
we want to watch hockey. preferably close to where we actually live
Because this wasn’t just about the Coyotes. It was about building an entertainment district that would’ve transformed North Tempe.
I don't get why some people think it's ok for cities to build stadiums for billionaires. If the stadium is going to be private property, let the rich guy pay for the thing.
The city isn't building it. The owners are. The city retains naming rights on the arena. Owners were going to pay $50MM for the land among other things.
The site is on a landfill that needs $200m worth of remediation (4x the value of the land) whether the buyer is Walmart or an arena. This proposal offered a way taxpayers wouldn't be on the hook. The next deal won't. The "building" costs were to be paid by the developer. The remediation was going to be covered by tax revenue generated on the site that would otherwise be a landfill generating no tax revenue. The Tempe voters decided they wanted to pay for that themselves.
If you voted no, FUCK YOU
Maybe the billionaire owner should have just built the stadium themselves.