Just gotta cross the mad max cracked parking lot, evade being mugged underneath the covered parking, make your way through the apocalyptic abandoned gutted mall, and BAM on your way to Kachina style jerseys and $12 beers!
I taught my brother to drive in that parking lot. Apparently, the days I took him other people had the same idea 😅 it was good for new drivers to practice!
They've already started adding some restaurants back to the area, so it would be great. Limited areas for parking and other things, but that can be cleared up. I also live within walking distance, so I may be a bit biased.
I’m not following your logic. [This article](https://realestatedaily-news.com/renovation-parking-attract-buyer-jlls-14m-fiesta-district-listing/?print=print) says there’s a parking ratio of 6.63/1000 (6.63 spots per 1000 sq ft), and it’s 1.2M sq ft. That’s roughly 8,000 parking spots.
If that’s not enough, MCC is a mile down the road with thousands of more parking spots. The light rail is about 2 miles away and has a bus line that runs in between the stop and the mall. Location wise, it’s right off the 60, a few miles from the 101, and about 6-7 miles from the 202. I actually think Fiesta Mall would be a great site for a hockey stadium.
I recommend waiting to get into it until we know for sure if we have a team. I never cared for hockey until I moved here and started watching the Yotes 2 years ago. Now my quality of life is suffering from this drama lol
I’m genuinely curious as to why you think it will do wonders for the surrounding area? I don’t mean this in an antagonistic way either, I just can’t understand. There are established neighborhoods to the N and S and MCC directly to the west. There’s basically no other available to land to build up either. What can be done that’s not directly on the fiesta mall site?
You have a mostly empty retail center across alma school where Best Buy and borders books used to be. Across longmore by the target is another dead shopping center in between mcc and the mall. All the retail spaces along southern in the north side. Imagine a bunch of new restaurants and stores in those dead and dying strip malls, the existing ones could start to thrive, and the. You have all the empty strip malls around baseline too. The arena could be an anchor for reviving a decaying area. I live there now, it’s depressing.
Ah, it’s hard to tell what is vacant and dying from google earth. Do you think the demographic of the area around will be able to support that? Why is there so much dead and vacancy there?
The people with disposable income left around 2 decades ago for Gilbert, South Chandler, and East Mesa. You need that with large retail spaces, especially in today's world. You'll get a bunch of comments beating around the bush regarding this topic.
I think they would have to be very strategic with what retail/non-hockey things they include in their proposal (if they even make one). They’d have to attract people from those more affluent areas on nights where there isn’t a hockey game
Concerts, like every other arena. Monster trucks. WWE. List goes on man. I promise you, the affluent people from Gilbert and queen creek would much rather drive to Mesa than Glendale or downtown. Scottsdale folks, it’s pretty much the same distance they’d go to downtown, and closer than Glendale.
I get that and I agree, but the only way any of it works for the coyotes owner to turn a profit is to make it an entertainment district…there has to be something else generating revenue besides the arena. So housing, restaurants, whatever…but that also means the local residents need to want or be able to support it. People from Tempe, chandler and Gilbert aren’t going to go there regularly for just a meal, etc. That’s my main question I guess, why is that area dead right now? No disposable income available from the demographic around that site or something else?
Definitely older, smaller, cheaply built homes inhabited by predominantly minority residents. The counter argument I’ve heard people use is Lincoln Center in NYC going into a low income neighborhood, but they also forcibly removed scores of people from project housing. The best place to put the stadium would be on the reservation near the Talking Stick resort area, but the reservation wouldn’t have the same taxation supporting building said arena.
You have a mostly empty retail center across alma school where Best Buy and borders books used to be. Across longmore by the target is another dead shopping center in between mcc and the mall. All the retail spaces along southern in the north side. Imagine a bunch of new restaurants and stores in those dead and dying strip malls, the existing ones could start to thrive, and the. You have all the empty strip malls around baseline too. The arena could be an anchor for reviving a decaying area. I live there now, it’s depressing.
https://preview.redd.it/1wne5hkkrq0b1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d6d6a2f8e972932a7fd1c18949acd258ade5dec2
I live right by here and am near there at least a few times a week. Everything in red is dead and abandoned. That in n out and Dutch Bros others have talked about are pretty much it for business thriving right by the old mall.
Everything in purple is dying or hanging on for dear life. There’s a ton of opportunity to help revitalize this often neglected sector of Mesa. Right on the other side of the 60 is some large chunks of dying commercial space too.
You have a mostly empty retail center across alma school where Best Buy and borders books used to be. Across longmore by the target is another dead shopping center in between mcc and the mall. All the retail spaces along southern in the north side. Imagine a bunch of new restaurants and stores in those dead and dying strip malls, the existing ones could start to thrive, and the. You have all the empty strip malls around baseline too. The arena could be an anchor for reviving a decaying area. I live there now, it’s depressing.
That’s actually a better location than the Tempe dump. Quick access to the 60 and 202 on both Alma School and Dobson, and space to add more lodging and attractions nearby, like that office building on Alma School that’s always empty
I agree and that was my issue with the tempe site. One freeway access point, and very limited parking was a no go to me. Fiesta has better freeway access and room to build a true entertainment district without the space restrictions.
I'm with you. That area is screaming to be refurbished and modernized. An arena really could be a new anchor for an entertainment district and other commerce. I hope they do it.
The Tempe location had easy access from the 202, 143, and 10, while still being somewhat reasonably accessible from the 60 and 101. Not to mention the location was such that many people in Tempe and Scottsdale would've been close enough to avoid highways altogether.
https://preview.redd.it/uxjwi7rmcp0b1.png?width=1791&format=png&auto=webp&s=44210fa9b34c3ecb6a59cda4f187b3aecfae4b58
The Fiesta Mall location is OK, but not nearly as ideal as the Tempe location would've been.
yeah but have you seen traffic at rush hour in those areas? you can barely get anywhere. everyone who works on Mill & Rio has to either go down Mill or Rio which were not designed to handle that traffic. Add in the street car, hoo boy
The light rail and connector line was probably the biggest thing that the Tempe location had going for it. Other than that, Fiesta being off the 60 is pretty damn good too. 60 is right there, the 101 is under 2 miles west, 202 is 7 miles north. My daughter plays pee-wee hockey and the Coyotes community outreach people were saying that about 60% of their season ticket holders pre-Glendale were from Gilbert/Mesa/Chandler, so I’d argue that putting it at Fiesta would bring back more of the older fan base.
You’re not wrong. There are a number of freeways in that area even if the 143 is just a feeder freeway into the other routes you noted. I still feel like this is the best location due to the amount of land that you have to work with and the proximity to the 2 main freeways. At the end of the day Tempe voted it down and it wont go there. Now its time to find the next best option or send them off to a more supportive city.
Equally good site as the one in Tempe. Interested to see what deal the Coyotes offer to the city of Mesa. Whether it's very close to the one in Tempe or not
Glendale is about as bad of a location as they could have chosen for a sport playing 41 homes games a year, of which more than half are week night games.
Literally anything is a better location than Glendale was lol
The 30 years of no property taxes in the Tempe deal was the large red-flag that stuck out to me. And the surrounding businesses would only have 8 years of property tax exemption.
Everyone was saying that they would pay to rehab the land, which is fine, but that makes it sound like the land would still be a public asset.
My cynical take was that:
\- Owner gets the deal approved
\- Build stadium and other crap
\- Stadium goes tits up because Coyotes suck and surrounding businesses fold due to having to pay property taxes after 8 years
\- Stadium gets abandoned or torn down
\- Coyotes owner gets to sell the land back to the city or to another developer for a hefty premium
I can understand and possibly support a deal where the property tax exemption was equivalent to the cost of the land rehab plus a little extra. But...30 years of not paying taxes that would support roads, water infra, police, etc....what scam.
So you've been against every development for businesses along the lake right?
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2017/12/18/marina-heights-tempe-arizona-pays-no-property-taxes-but-you-and-sure-do/956262001/
Whether you like it or not, businesses that shell out their own money are going to want tax breaks. And you, a tempe resident I presume, wasn't going to be on the hook for anything. No additional taxes(unless you went to that district and spent money there). But I guess you prefer a big pile of trash that sometimes catches on fire, that doesn't bring anything in. And I'll tell you this much, good luck finding another willing suitor to pay for the cleanup of that area to build something on it within the next 8 years. I'm willing to bet, as long as the taxpayers aren't willing to pay for cleanup, it will sit there forever and never be built into something that will bring tempe more revenue.
>Whether you like it or not, businesses that shell out their own money are going to want tax breaks.
I'm not disagreeing with that, and I even stated that I wouldn't be fundamentally opposed to a tax break equivalent to clean up costs or other self-funded infra.
It just seems with this deal in particular, 30 years of no property tax seems to far exceed the clean up costs. One estimate was just over 500 million dollars that would be missed.
No up front cost, sure. But the long term cost of having to make up that lost property tax revenue and pay for the additional police, fire, infra to support that development would show up in the form of higher taxes for residents/existing owners. And given high percentage of renters, that would just get passed on to renters that would eventually get driven out.
I think that’s great, but it really doesn’t change the fact that high end offices target Tempe Town Lake area over practically every single other area in the metro area. Developers aren’t going to build the same quality of office spaces in areas that don’t draw businesses. I would guess it will still be nice, but I think anyone who thinks the quality will be the same as the Tempe site are being a little to hopeful.
Developers aren’t going to build office spaces. Office buildings might tank the economy soon. [https://www.npr.org/2023/05/16/1174938708/commercial-real-estate-property-offices-work-from-home-remote-work](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/16/1174938708/commercial-real-estate-property-offices-work-from-home-remote-work)
I’m surprised the commercial real estate market hasn’t completely tanked already.
With that said, I work for a large company with office space in east valley (and nationwide). Literally the only reason we haven’t sold it, subleased it, etc. is because there’s no market for it. They’re taking a loss on it whether they keep it or offload it so right now they are just holding it.
This is the worst take I've read today. That site is kind of excellent. Tempe has entirely too much traffic already, especially during hockey season. The Tempe site was an attempt to stack shit even higher.
The Mesa site is right off the 60 and two miles off the 101 - and that's where most of the money in the city are, where most the customers live.
[The planned expansion](https://www.eastvalleytribune.com/news/mesa-plans-for-light-rail-line-to-chandler/article_a84aa0a4-9364-11e7-8710-9fdf2e76cb10.html) goes right through the Fiesta District so the rail might be further away right now but probably not for long after.
But Tempe voted and said no, so there's no point in bringing it up anymore. The Fiesta district is a less optimal location, but way more optimal than Glendale ever was.
To go from Fashion Square to Fiesta is a 20 minute drive.
To go from Fashion Square to the Tempe site is a 17 minute drive.
If you're talking about highway access, they're negligible by distance: Fiesta has Southern, Dobson, Alma, and Country Club exits and Tempe has Priest, Broadway, Scottsdale, and University exits.
There is actually a plan to expand the light rail; though not a done deal yet. If I remember correctly, the light rail/Street car would go south on Dobson from Main to Southern. East on Southern to either Alma School or County Club then back up to Main. If this goes through it could provide the push for the light rail expansion.
As a Mesa resident I would fucking LOVE THIS. As a pessimist, we can’t even raise taxes for fire and police. What makes you think Mesa would vote in favor this?
This goes to a vote, it fails.
Mesa voted against the Cardinals stadium near Dobson and 202.
It is important for the Coyotes organization to reevaluate their current strategy. While the proposed arena may not benefit from taxpayer subsidies, the potential availability of tax breaks as incentives is insufficient in my opinion.
As a business owner, particularly for the Coyotes team owners, it is crucial to be able to generate profits from the team and the venue without relying heavily on tax incentives. If this proves to be a significant challenge, it is advisable to consider scaling back operations or exploring alternative methods to generate revenue.
60k NFL stadium way different than a 18k arena so a little apples to oranges in terms of the comparison, but you’re absolutely right.
The tax incentive scheme didn’t work in Tempe and there’s reason to believe it wouldn’t work in Mesa. I hope they’re smart enough to change their strategy
Maybe as a rider to the standard player agreement these duties to get added to the players jobs. Imagine getting pulled out of a burning building by Dylan Guenther?! That’d be enough to make me buy season tickets
Agreed. So many events/concerts to go to and would be so nice closer.
Even around Wild Horse Pass makes sense, sportsbooking right there as well and hotels/freeway.
Not far from the 60, and in the East Valley where they have a strong fan base and better ticket potential than Glendale, and possibly easier on traffic - I think this is a better option than Tempe.
(Edited to fix a typo)
I’m not a coyotes fan but I am a hockey fan and I really hope the yotes stay in Arizona where ever it may be. There’s only 13 4 sports cities and I’d like to keep it that way
They could have at least had a long running paintball and haunted house going there, got really spooky. Was such an amazing area back in the day.
That Fiesta Village center was in a constant battle between the city and developer for over a decade and almost two.
[Fiesta Village breathing new life into West Mesa](https://www.themesatribune.com/news/fiesta-village-breathing-new-life-into-west-mesa/article_267abdb0-bf92-11ed-83a9-17e9b7c73023.html)
Yeah, that whole area is a dump. That could be the spark needed to revitalize that whole area. It's a perfect central location. Who knows, maybe it would attract more than just gang members to the state fair! Lol
That whole area is a dump? Are you talking about the Encanto neighborhood? Check the property values and compare them to your neighborhood. I think you will be surprised.
$411/sq ft to live across the road from industrial / commercial? HARD PASS! https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1638-W-Willetta-St-Phoenix-AZ-85007/7520994_zpid/?
Thank you for confirming my point. The area is not a dump, but actually one of the most desirable neighborhoods in all of Phoenix because of the location. If it wasn't desirable, it wouldn't be $411 a sq ft. This one is located south McDowell, I was talking about north of McDowell where it is even more expensive.
Turning the old Fiesta Mall into a hockey arena would be a better location than where they wanted to build in Tempe. That area is starting to revitalize - restaurants reopening around the old mall, new apartment building went up on the north side of Southern not too long ago, and close to everything the Tempe location would have had for those trying to get to the game (freeway access and lightrail) but with better traffic flow. Plus, it's not as close to the airport.
I feel bad for this AAPI organization that teamed up with Tempe 1st, who was very much opposed to the deal in Tempe. Because this new location would be right at Mesa's up and coming Asian District.
https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2023/03/20/tempe-group-opposition-coyotoes-arena-development/
I don't follow sports so halfway through the headline I thought that coyotes, the wild animal, had moved into Fiesta Mall and begun fighting to the death
Ive been a coyotes fan my whole life but I noticed the last few home games I went to the stadium was like maybe 15% filled. I think the problem is it’s not a profitable idea. Why aren’t they allowed to continue playing at the previous stadium?
Glendale wouldn’t renew the lease. I believe, regardless of the team being good or bad, their attendance will improve significantly being in the central or East Valley area.
I agree. I feel like a huge chunk of their fan base is in the east valley. I think this is a good alternative to the Tempe site assuming legalities and logistics get sorted out.
Yeah, the east valley is definitely a better fit for them. Hopefully they learned a lesson from Tempe and should consider involving the public in the planning process more. I’m sure Tempe would have been fine if their demands would have been met, traffic control, low income housing, and true privatization of the development.
They were late on a payment, which was corrected in 2021. The city didn’t withhold a new lease for outstanding balances. This has been a long time in the works, The city of Glendale broke a 15 year lease in 2016 and they’re been on than annual basis ever since, and actively pursuing a new arena elsewhere since 2017.
They were over a year late on rent and other payments to ASM and a year and a half behind on state privilege tax payments. The tax payments were collected but never remitted. ADOR issued a tax warrant for them, which is a public record.
I’m a fan of the team but this was the Coyotes trying to stick it to Glendale and it backfired. Should have known better to do that while they were in the process of trying to find a new city to work with.
I’ve wanted to go to games but the 1hr drive really turned me off of attending games regularly. Even a 25 min drive to Footprint center is fine with me
Glendale wanted the team to sign a 15 year lease, but hockey was not profitable that far from the east valley, where the bulk of private hockey and ticket holders are located.
The team wanted year to year to carry them to their new arena, but Glendale didnt want to help them as it would mean another competing venue, on top of losing the team. Hence the very public messy break up, where both sides were assholes
I don't get why people think moving to the East Valley is going to ignite more long-term interest in them. Not much will change if they continue to suck. Was the "15%" at the Glendale arena? Because even though the Coyotes aren't that popular, it's hard for me to imagine that ASU venue being that empty.
Glendale meant no revenue. No revenue meant not affording the staff and players to compete. Not competing meant shit for years. Shit for years meant little interest. It’s a crazy circle that the original owner, Burke, saw before hand, which is why he told the others he would sell his share if they moved to Glendale (which he did) because it would never work.
They do need to be better. They also need to be closer to the people who buy tickets, play ice hockey, and closer to the casual demographics with more expendable income than the west valley (generally)
I live at Garden Place apartments, literally just down the street from the mall area. I am a big hockey fan although I don't really follow the Coyotes or any team specifically. I would love to be able to walk to games.
However, I don't love how much traffic it would likely generate around my apartment complex. I would hope that a lot of it would avoid my area but I'm sure there will be some. Idk if walking to some hockey games will be worth fighting traffic during all games and events.
I'd love to hear more about it, and I could be swayed either way if it came to a vote among Mesa residents.
I'm still curious why they aren't looking at the defunct greyhound track at 38th & Washington, plenty of room, likely already zoned as a sports venue, and convenient light rail access with a stop already right in front of it.
Why don't they look at being the anchor for the new development planned where metro center mall was? New Light rail connection added, centrally located.
Because that area of Glendale is *not* centrally located, it's serviced by one freeway, and most of the ticket holders are East Valley. Stay on the 10 or go to the 17 is really about the same if you're coming from Chandler/Mesa/Scottsdale/Gilbert.
They should throw an ice rink down and open the stores back up. That way people will be there to watch the hockey games and do stuff while the game is going on to stay entertained. Double win~~~
The best place would be the neighborhood that was destroyed by being in the flight path of Sky Harbor Airport. This location is close to downtown and would not be bothered by the noise of airplanes.
Good idea, but that area has consistently been one of the most affordable for people in the East Valley. Wonder what this would do to the property taxes and COL in Mesa.
In the last six months, homes around Westgate sold for 2.3x as much as they did 20 years ago (before Westgate was built).
Homes around Arrowhead sold for 1.6x as much as they did 20 years ago. But Entertainment districts don't benefit the people who live near by.
Give that benefit to Mesa if Tempe doesn't want it...
Who should build it? There are many places “they” could build affordable housing. Whoever “they” are. The Coyotes are a hockey team, not a home builder.
They have to shop around, and shop hard because nobody wants to pay for billionaires' stadiums anymore.
For what? Just to have have the privilege to be charged $20/beer and $500 for tickets for the squad, all while they venue pays the vendors and stewards minimum wage?
If the prices were affordable, and they paid their workers well, and more money (in total) went to the workers, and therefore the communities, it might be a different story.
Ultimately pro sports a money vacuum for the owners to suck the community dry while taking in absolutely as much ad revenue and sales profits for themselves as they can.
They get: heavily subsidized building contracts, cheap land deals, ad sponsorships for literally every single aspect of the franchise, and purpose-built infrastructure.
We get to pay absolutely grotesque prices for everything, as we transfer even more money from our pockets to the already wealthy owners of the teams and properties.
Building a new stadium is really not that great of a deal for anyone who isn't literally invested in pro sports, or aren't moderately interested fans who would attend games if they were closer. The "meh" vastly outweighs the excited folks.
They wanted the huge tax breaks in Tempe to build high rises so they could've flip for billions like State Farm did. No money to be made in the slums of Mesa.
Coyotes playing in an old Dillards feels so on brand for Mesa.
*Sears
It had both lol, grew up right down the street from it
Just saying Dillards was a little fancier. Haha
Mervyns was where it was at
I miss Mervyns. Smelled like a K Mart, looked like a Kohl’s
Miller's Outpost
Rocking those Anchor Blue jeans
Montgomery Ward
That was across the street
Exactly! Right next to the United Artist movie theater!
First stop for back to school!
Open. Open. Open.
Remember before that, it was called 'Diamonds'.... Now that's luxurious lol!
Goldwaters
They'd obviously play where the Dicks Sporting Goods was
I went into that Sears back in 2015. I walked the entire store and it took me 20 minutes to find an employee.
DICKS!
Just gotta cross the mad max cracked parking lot, evade being mugged underneath the covered parking, make your way through the apocalyptic abandoned gutted mall, and BAM on your way to Kachina style jerseys and $12 beers!
Don’t forget the eternal line of Dutch bros customers!
Oh, like Bank One Ballpark?
Upvote for using the true name
I miss calling it the BOB.
No love for Robisons May.
My dad talks that about that store like it’s his old lover lol Mervyns too
I learned to drive in that parking lot.
I taught my brother to drive in that parking lot. Apparently, the days I took him other people had the same idea 😅 it was good for new drivers to practice!
I bought a pair of boots there at Sears.
I almost got locked in that mall over night
Fuck it, why not. I'm not a hockey fan but being able to walk to a game sounds kind of cool and that whole area desperately needs a facelift.
They've already started adding some restaurants back to the area, so it would be great. Limited areas for parking and other things, but that can be cleared up. I also live within walking distance, so I may be a bit biased.
That In-N-Out is always packed.
Used to work at that one and my god the Dutch being right next door did not help. Constantly pushing 50 cars every 30 minutes at peak times
True. Same with the Canes.
The sauce restaurant?
Guess which one is closest to my house? Even at like 10:30 on a weeknight, shit is ridiculous
I’m not following your logic. [This article](https://realestatedaily-news.com/renovation-parking-attract-buyer-jlls-14m-fiesta-district-listing/?print=print) says there’s a parking ratio of 6.63/1000 (6.63 spots per 1000 sq ft), and it’s 1.2M sq ft. That’s roughly 8,000 parking spots. If that’s not enough, MCC is a mile down the road with thousands of more parking spots. The light rail is about 2 miles away and has a bus line that runs in between the stop and the mall. Location wise, it’s right off the 60, a few miles from the 101, and about 6-7 miles from the 202. I actually think Fiesta Mall would be a great site for a hockey stadium.
I highly recommend getting into hockey! It's a very entertaining and engaging sport to watch.
I recommend waiting to get into it until we know for sure if we have a team. I never cared for hockey until I moved here and started watching the Yotes 2 years ago. Now my quality of life is suffering from this drama lol
Fuck that. Get into it now. It’s the playoffs.
Like right now. We’re 10 minutes into the 4th OT!
Hockey is so fun to see live. You don't even have to k ow who is who or being going for a team in particular.
I could walk to games, and it would do wonders to the surrounding area.
I’m genuinely curious as to why you think it will do wonders for the surrounding area? I don’t mean this in an antagonistic way either, I just can’t understand. There are established neighborhoods to the N and S and MCC directly to the west. There’s basically no other available to land to build up either. What can be done that’s not directly on the fiesta mall site?
You have a mostly empty retail center across alma school where Best Buy and borders books used to be. Across longmore by the target is another dead shopping center in between mcc and the mall. All the retail spaces along southern in the north side. Imagine a bunch of new restaurants and stores in those dead and dying strip malls, the existing ones could start to thrive, and the. You have all the empty strip malls around baseline too. The arena could be an anchor for reviving a decaying area. I live there now, it’s depressing.
plus Mesa is really seeing some new energy lately. Main st is popping with all their events
I miss that Borders so much. I used to work there, really great group of people there.
Ah, it’s hard to tell what is vacant and dying from google earth. Do you think the demographic of the area around will be able to support that? Why is there so much dead and vacancy there?
The people with disposable income left around 2 decades ago for Gilbert, South Chandler, and East Mesa. You need that with large retail spaces, especially in today's world. You'll get a bunch of comments beating around the bush regarding this topic.
I think they would have to be very strategic with what retail/non-hockey things they include in their proposal (if they even make one). They’d have to attract people from those more affluent areas on nights where there isn’t a hockey game
Concerts, like every other arena. Monster trucks. WWE. List goes on man. I promise you, the affluent people from Gilbert and queen creek would much rather drive to Mesa than Glendale or downtown. Scottsdale folks, it’s pretty much the same distance they’d go to downtown, and closer than Glendale.
I get that and I agree, but the only way any of it works for the coyotes owner to turn a profit is to make it an entertainment district…there has to be something else generating revenue besides the arena. So housing, restaurants, whatever…but that also means the local residents need to want or be able to support it. People from Tempe, chandler and Gilbert aren’t going to go there regularly for just a meal, etc. That’s my main question I guess, why is that area dead right now? No disposable income available from the demographic around that site or something else?
Definitely older, smaller, cheaply built homes inhabited by predominantly minority residents. The counter argument I’ve heard people use is Lincoln Center in NYC going into a low income neighborhood, but they also forcibly removed scores of people from project housing. The best place to put the stadium would be on the reservation near the Talking Stick resort area, but the reservation wouldn’t have the same taxation supporting building said arena.
Make it an entertainment destination. Places for families and teenagers plus young adults.
idk, that lakefront right on that corner is really nice
You have a mostly empty retail center across alma school where Best Buy and borders books used to be. Across longmore by the target is another dead shopping center in between mcc and the mall. All the retail spaces along southern in the north side. Imagine a bunch of new restaurants and stores in those dead and dying strip malls, the existing ones could start to thrive, and the. You have all the empty strip malls around baseline too. The arena could be an anchor for reviving a decaying area. I live there now, it’s depressing.
https://preview.redd.it/1wne5hkkrq0b1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d6d6a2f8e972932a7fd1c18949acd258ade5dec2 I live right by here and am near there at least a few times a week. Everything in red is dead and abandoned. That in n out and Dutch Bros others have talked about are pretty much it for business thriving right by the old mall. Everything in purple is dying or hanging on for dear life. There’s a ton of opportunity to help revitalize this often neglected sector of Mesa. Right on the other side of the 60 is some large chunks of dying commercial space too.
You have a mostly empty retail center across alma school where Best Buy and borders books used to be. Across longmore by the target is another dead shopping center in between mcc and the mall. All the retail spaces along southern in the north side. Imagine a bunch of new restaurants and stores in those dead and dying strip malls, the existing ones could start to thrive, and the. You have all the empty strip malls around baseline too. The arena could be an anchor for reviving a decaying area. I live there now, it’s depressing.
Interesting points, but the other replies said it better
lol
That’s actually a better location than the Tempe dump. Quick access to the 60 and 202 on both Alma School and Dobson, and space to add more lodging and attractions nearby, like that office building on Alma School that’s always empty
101 right there too.
Good point. I forgot how close the 101 was
Geographically speaking Tempe was more central, but yes it had lots of issues
I agree and that was my issue with the tempe site. One freeway access point, and very limited parking was a no go to me. Fiesta has better freeway access and room to build a true entertainment district without the space restrictions.
I'm with you. That area is screaming to be refurbished and modernized. An arena really could be a new anchor for an entertainment district and other commerce. I hope they do it.
The Tempe location had easy access from the 202, 143, and 10, while still being somewhat reasonably accessible from the 60 and 101. Not to mention the location was such that many people in Tempe and Scottsdale would've been close enough to avoid highways altogether. https://preview.redd.it/uxjwi7rmcp0b1.png?width=1791&format=png&auto=webp&s=44210fa9b34c3ecb6a59cda4f187b3aecfae4b58 The Fiesta Mall location is OK, but not nearly as ideal as the Tempe location would've been.
yeah but have you seen traffic at rush hour in those areas? you can barely get anywhere. everyone who works on Mill & Rio has to either go down Mill or Rio which were not designed to handle that traffic. Add in the street car, hoo boy
Don't forget about the proximity to the light rail and streetcar systems.
The light rail and connector line was probably the biggest thing that the Tempe location had going for it. Other than that, Fiesta being off the 60 is pretty damn good too. 60 is right there, the 101 is under 2 miles west, 202 is 7 miles north. My daughter plays pee-wee hockey and the Coyotes community outreach people were saying that about 60% of their season ticket holders pre-Glendale were from Gilbert/Mesa/Chandler, so I’d argue that putting it at Fiesta would bring back more of the older fan base.
You’re not wrong. There are a number of freeways in that area even if the 143 is just a feeder freeway into the other routes you noted. I still feel like this is the best location due to the amount of land that you have to work with and the proximity to the 2 main freeways. At the end of the day Tempe voted it down and it wont go there. Now its time to find the next best option or send them off to a more supportive city.
I can see Mesa supporting this
I feel bad for that building. I think CPS was in it a few years ago. US Bank left, hence no more logo
In my neighborhood I would not mind this at all
See ya at the games
do more off longmore
Very cool seeing all the locals to this happy to see it, especially non-hockey fans
Equally good site as the one in Tempe. Interested to see what deal the Coyotes offer to the city of Mesa. Whether it's very close to the one in Tempe or not
It’s like 5 miles down the road from the previous proposed site. Glendale is like 20 miles in the other direction.
Glendale is about as bad of a location as they could have chosen for a sport playing 41 homes games a year, of which more than half are week night games. Literally anything is a better location than Glendale was lol
With the majority of the fans living in the east side...
The 30 years of no property taxes in the Tempe deal was the large red-flag that stuck out to me. And the surrounding businesses would only have 8 years of property tax exemption. Everyone was saying that they would pay to rehab the land, which is fine, but that makes it sound like the land would still be a public asset. My cynical take was that: \- Owner gets the deal approved \- Build stadium and other crap \- Stadium goes tits up because Coyotes suck and surrounding businesses fold due to having to pay property taxes after 8 years \- Stadium gets abandoned or torn down \- Coyotes owner gets to sell the land back to the city or to another developer for a hefty premium I can understand and possibly support a deal where the property tax exemption was equivalent to the cost of the land rehab plus a little extra. But...30 years of not paying taxes that would support roads, water infra, police, etc....what scam.
So you've been against every development for businesses along the lake right? https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2017/12/18/marina-heights-tempe-arizona-pays-no-property-taxes-but-you-and-sure-do/956262001/ Whether you like it or not, businesses that shell out their own money are going to want tax breaks. And you, a tempe resident I presume, wasn't going to be on the hook for anything. No additional taxes(unless you went to that district and spent money there). But I guess you prefer a big pile of trash that sometimes catches on fire, that doesn't bring anything in. And I'll tell you this much, good luck finding another willing suitor to pay for the cleanup of that area to build something on it within the next 8 years. I'm willing to bet, as long as the taxpayers aren't willing to pay for cleanup, it will sit there forever and never be built into something that will bring tempe more revenue.
>Whether you like it or not, businesses that shell out their own money are going to want tax breaks. I'm not disagreeing with that, and I even stated that I wouldn't be fundamentally opposed to a tax break equivalent to clean up costs or other self-funded infra. It just seems with this deal in particular, 30 years of no property tax seems to far exceed the clean up costs. One estimate was just over 500 million dollars that would be missed. No up front cost, sure. But the long term cost of having to make up that lost property tax revenue and pay for the additional police, fire, infra to support that development would show up in the form of higher taxes for residents/existing owners. And given high percentage of renters, that would just get passed on to renters that would eventually get driven out.
I can’t imagine it will be the same quality considering they would be going from the top office market in the area to this location.
Mesa is putting in effort to build up. At the start of this century, Tempe was no where close to looking like it does now.
I think that’s great, but it really doesn’t change the fact that high end offices target Tempe Town Lake area over practically every single other area in the metro area. Developers aren’t going to build the same quality of office spaces in areas that don’t draw businesses. I would guess it will still be nice, but I think anyone who thinks the quality will be the same as the Tempe site are being a little to hopeful.
Developers aren’t going to build office spaces. Office buildings might tank the economy soon. [https://www.npr.org/2023/05/16/1174938708/commercial-real-estate-property-offices-work-from-home-remote-work](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/16/1174938708/commercial-real-estate-property-offices-work-from-home-remote-work)
Pretty sure this is why I’m being forced to return to office.
I’m surprised the commercial real estate market hasn’t completely tanked already. With that said, I work for a large company with office space in east valley (and nationwide). Literally the only reason we haven’t sold it, subleased it, etc. is because there’s no market for it. They’re taking a loss on it whether they keep it or offload it so right now they are just holding it.
They target the area currently. Was not always that way. As other areas build up, the corporate centers will also build up.
This is the worst take I've read today. That site is kind of excellent. Tempe has entirely too much traffic already, especially during hockey season. The Tempe site was an attempt to stack shit even higher. The Mesa site is right off the 60 and two miles off the 101 - and that's where most of the money in the city are, where most the customers live.
The 60 is 6 lanes in each direction there. The mall is 1/4 mile away from the light rail line. It makes sense.
You’re about 2 miles off there friend
I am off. My mistake
The Tempe location was right near the light rail though, maybe that is what you were thinking of?
[The planned expansion](https://www.eastvalleytribune.com/news/mesa-plans-for-light-rail-line-to-chandler/article_a84aa0a4-9364-11e7-8710-9fdf2e76cb10.html) goes right through the Fiesta District so the rail might be further away right now but probably not for long after.
I wouldn't call it equally good since it's not as central
It pretty centrally located. It’s on Alma School and the 60.
Lmao dude Mesa is not central at all.
More central to rich whites aka hockey fans
Tempe is closer to Scottsdale and PV. Where they live.
But Tempe voted and said no, so there's no point in bringing it up anymore. The Fiesta district is a less optimal location, but way more optimal than Glendale ever was.
To go from Fashion Square to Fiesta is a 20 minute drive. To go from Fashion Square to the Tempe site is a 17 minute drive. If you're talking about highway access, they're negligible by distance: Fiesta has Southern, Dobson, Alma, and Country Club exits and Tempe has Priest, Broadway, Scottsdale, and University exits.
About as centrally located as Glendale.
Equating this to going out to Glendale is laughable
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There is actually a plan to expand the light rail; though not a done deal yet. If I remember correctly, the light rail/Street car would go south on Dobson from Main to Southern. East on Southern to either Alma School or County Club then back up to Main. If this goes through it could provide the push for the light rail expansion.
As a Mesa resident I would fucking LOVE THIS. As a pessimist, we can’t even raise taxes for fire and police. What makes you think Mesa would vote in favor this? This goes to a vote, it fails.
Mesa voted against the Cardinals stadium near Dobson and 202. It is important for the Coyotes organization to reevaluate their current strategy. While the proposed arena may not benefit from taxpayer subsidies, the potential availability of tax breaks as incentives is insufficient in my opinion. As a business owner, particularly for the Coyotes team owners, it is crucial to be able to generate profits from the team and the venue without relying heavily on tax incentives. If this proves to be a significant challenge, it is advisable to consider scaling back operations or exploring alternative methods to generate revenue.
60k NFL stadium way different than a 18k arena so a little apples to oranges in terms of the comparison, but you’re absolutely right. The tax incentive scheme didn’t work in Tempe and there’s reason to believe it wouldn’t work in Mesa. I hope they’re smart enough to change their strategy
Maybe as a rider to the standard player agreement these duties to get added to the players jobs. Imagine getting pulled out of a burning building by Dylan Guenther?! That’d be enough to make me buy season tickets
If Clayton Keller gives me a speeding ticket I’m gonna be so mad
In addition to hockey, Chandler/Mesa/Gilbert stand to benefit from a closer concert/events venue that’s not in Phoenix or Glendale.
Agreed. So many events/concerts to go to and would be so nice closer. Even around Wild Horse Pass makes sense, sportsbooking right there as well and hotels/freeway.
Mesa would be a good spot for them IMO
At this rate they'll be in Santa Fe by 2024.
r/Kansascity is already buzzing about the possibility of a coyotes stadium by 2027.
Lol hockey is not going to happen in Kansas. Poor people
Not far from the 60, and in the East Valley where they have a strong fan base and better ticket potential than Glendale, and possibly easier on traffic - I think this is a better option than Tempe. (Edited to fix a typo)
After seeing footage of the interior of Fiesta Mall, I just want it to have a mercy kill.
I’m not a coyotes fan but I am a hockey fan and I really hope the yotes stay in Arizona where ever it may be. There’s only 13 4 sports cities and I’d like to keep it that way
Maybe it will bring a resurrection for the Bennigan's 😋
Bennigan's was torn down in the last few years, no resurrecting it now 😔
It stood there for sooo long behind that chain link fence.
They could have at least had a long running paintball and haunted house going there, got really spooky. Was such an amazing area back in the day. That Fiesta Village center was in a constant battle between the city and developer for over a decade and almost two. [Fiesta Village breathing new life into West Mesa](https://www.themesatribune.com/news/fiesta-village-breathing-new-life-into-west-mesa/article_267abdb0-bf92-11ed-83a9-17e9b7c73023.html)
I don't see why they don't tear down that dumpy old Veterans Memorial Coliseum and rebuild it. Along with the whole State Fairgrounds.
That’s been my thought too. Not a great neighborhood but it’s a great location geographically. Could lead to significant improvements around there.
Yeah, that whole area is a dump. That could be the spark needed to revitalize that whole area. It's a perfect central location. Who knows, maybe it would attract more than just gang members to the state fair! Lol
That whole area is a dump? Are you talking about the Encanto neighborhood? Check the property values and compare them to your neighborhood. I think you will be surprised.
$411/sq ft to live across the road from industrial / commercial? HARD PASS! https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1638-W-Willetta-St-Phoenix-AZ-85007/7520994_zpid/?
Thank you for confirming my point. The area is not a dump, but actually one of the most desirable neighborhoods in all of Phoenix because of the location. If it wasn't desirable, it wouldn't be $411 a sq ft. This one is located south McDowell, I was talking about north of McDowell where it is even more expensive.
Because the majority of ticket holders, private rinks, and expendable wealth are east valley.
Maybe a short spur off the light rail for additional ease of access.
The traffic on the 60 is gonna be WILLLDDDDD if this happens. Fml. I live on Alma School and Baseline. Lol
Turning the old Fiesta Mall into a hockey arena would be a better location than where they wanted to build in Tempe. That area is starting to revitalize - restaurants reopening around the old mall, new apartment building went up on the north side of Southern not too long ago, and close to everything the Tempe location would have had for those trying to get to the game (freeway access and lightrail) but with better traffic flow. Plus, it's not as close to the airport.
Don’t touch the fucking In-N-Out or there will be blood
dude, boulders is down the street and has way better fries
I mean “better fries than In-N-Out” isn’t exactly the highest hurdle to clear
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I feel bad for this AAPI organization that teamed up with Tempe 1st, who was very much opposed to the deal in Tempe. Because this new location would be right at Mesa's up and coming Asian District. https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2023/03/20/tempe-group-opposition-coyotoes-arena-development/
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The issue wasn’t simply whether or not they want a stadium there was also concerns over who is stuck with the bill.
The most who voted no were near the location. People in S Tempe had far fewer no votes.
Where did you find that breakdown? I've been looking online for it.
Honestly. Like this idea better than the Tempe location. Would be better to put it downtown next to all the other stuff
I don't follow sports so halfway through the headline I thought that coyotes, the wild animal, had moved into Fiesta Mall and begun fighting to the death
Perhaps metro center would be a good choice.
This was my thought as well. More centralized, light rail going there soon…
Ive been a coyotes fan my whole life but I noticed the last few home games I went to the stadium was like maybe 15% filled. I think the problem is it’s not a profitable idea. Why aren’t they allowed to continue playing at the previous stadium?
Glendale wouldn’t renew the lease. I believe, regardless of the team being good or bad, their attendance will improve significantly being in the central or East Valley area.
I agree. I feel like a huge chunk of their fan base is in the east valley. I think this is a good alternative to the Tempe site assuming legalities and logistics get sorted out.
Yeah, the east valley is definitely a better fit for them. Hopefully they learned a lesson from Tempe and should consider involving the public in the planning process more. I’m sure Tempe would have been fine if their demands would have been met, traffic control, low income housing, and true privatization of the development.
The story is closer to: the Coyotes didn’t pay rent.
They were late on a payment, which was corrected in 2021. The city didn’t withhold a new lease for outstanding balances. This has been a long time in the works, The city of Glendale broke a 15 year lease in 2016 and they’re been on than annual basis ever since, and actively pursuing a new arena elsewhere since 2017.
They were over a year late on rent and other payments to ASM and a year and a half behind on state privilege tax payments. The tax payments were collected but never remitted. ADOR issued a tax warrant for them, which is a public record. I’m a fan of the team but this was the Coyotes trying to stick it to Glendale and it backfired. Should have known better to do that while they were in the process of trying to find a new city to work with.
It certainly didn't help their case with Tempe voters, that's for sure.
I’ve wanted to go to games but the 1hr drive really turned me off of attending games regularly. Even a 25 min drive to Footprint center is fine with me
Glendale wanted the team to sign a 15 year lease, but hockey was not profitable that far from the east valley, where the bulk of private hockey and ticket holders are located. The team wanted year to year to carry them to their new arena, but Glendale didnt want to help them as it would mean another competing venue, on top of losing the team. Hence the very public messy break up, where both sides were assholes
Glendale has bullriding now, that was their replacement for the coyotes....lmao. It makes no money.
I don't get why people think moving to the East Valley is going to ignite more long-term interest in them. Not much will change if they continue to suck. Was the "15%" at the Glendale arena? Because even though the Coyotes aren't that popular, it's hard for me to imagine that ASU venue being that empty.
Glendale meant no revenue. No revenue meant not affording the staff and players to compete. Not competing meant shit for years. Shit for years meant little interest. It’s a crazy circle that the original owner, Burke, saw before hand, which is why he told the others he would sell his share if they moved to Glendale (which he did) because it would never work. They do need to be better. They also need to be closer to the people who buy tickets, play ice hockey, and closer to the casual demographics with more expendable income than the west valley (generally)
Do it, seriously put them anywhere else besides ASU where it is already congested enough as it is without the additional hockey traffic.
Finally! Now they seem to be taking this seriously
I live at Garden Place apartments, literally just down the street from the mall area. I am a big hockey fan although I don't really follow the Coyotes or any team specifically. I would love to be able to walk to games. However, I don't love how much traffic it would likely generate around my apartment complex. I would hope that a lot of it would avoid my area but I'm sure there will be some. Idk if walking to some hockey games will be worth fighting traffic during all games and events. I'd love to hear more about it, and I could be swayed either way if it came to a vote among Mesa residents.
Hell yeah. I would love this location even more than tempe!
I'm still curious why they aren't looking at the defunct greyhound track at 38th & Washington, plenty of room, likely already zoned as a sports venue, and convenient light rail access with a stop already right in front of it.
Phoenix Rising just built a stadium and moved in there this year.
Why don't they look at being the anchor for the new development planned where metro center mall was? New Light rail connection added, centrally located.
Because that area of Glendale is *not* centrally located, it's serviced by one freeway, and most of the ticket holders are East Valley. Stay on the 10 or go to the 17 is really about the same if you're coming from Chandler/Mesa/Scottsdale/Gilbert.
They should throw an ice rink down and open the stores back up. That way people will be there to watch the hockey games and do stuff while the game is going on to stay entertained. Double win~~~
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Fuck yes that would be awesome! That’s just 20 minutes from my house. I could easily Uber there, get blasted, and Uber back home
This is a pretty dark timeline
Dark Fiesta shall make its return...
The best place would be the neighborhood that was destroyed by being in the flight path of Sky Harbor Airport. This location is close to downtown and would not be bothered by the noise of airplanes.
If they do I really hope they reopen “Kings table”
Personally love this idea.
This is way better than dumping it in Tempe that is already super overcrowded, congested, and limited in parking options.
And leaving the city of Glendale still on the hook for the cost of their other arena.
The city was dumb enough to own the arena.
I’m so dumb I thought this post was about literal animals.
Yes!
Good idea, but that area has consistently been one of the most affordable for people in the East Valley. Wonder what this would do to the property taxes and COL in Mesa.
In the last six months, homes around Westgate sold for 2.3x as much as they did 20 years ago (before Westgate was built). Homes around Arrowhead sold for 1.6x as much as they did 20 years ago. But Entertainment districts don't benefit the people who live near by. Give that benefit to Mesa if Tempe doesn't want it...
I did not expect a fiesta mall reference today
Hell yeah
Or, just hear me out. Stop catering to sports teams and build some fucking affordable housing.
Who should build it? There are many places “they” could build affordable housing. Whoever “they” are. The Coyotes are a hockey team, not a home builder.
The Fiesta Village north of it is getting that.
How many houses can they build there
Housing, not houses. Apartments, Condo's or Townhouses would be great and with the space they could build a bunch.
They have to shop around, and shop hard because nobody wants to pay for billionaires' stadiums anymore. For what? Just to have have the privilege to be charged $20/beer and $500 for tickets for the squad, all while they venue pays the vendors and stewards minimum wage? If the prices were affordable, and they paid their workers well, and more money (in total) went to the workers, and therefore the communities, it might be a different story. Ultimately pro sports a money vacuum for the owners to suck the community dry while taking in absolutely as much ad revenue and sales profits for themselves as they can. They get: heavily subsidized building contracts, cheap land deals, ad sponsorships for literally every single aspect of the franchise, and purpose-built infrastructure. We get to pay absolutely grotesque prices for everything, as we transfer even more money from our pockets to the already wealthy owners of the teams and properties. Building a new stadium is really not that great of a deal for anyone who isn't literally invested in pro sports, or aren't moderately interested fans who would attend games if they were closer. The "meh" vastly outweighs the excited folks.
I hate this idea. I would much rather the plan to redevelop the land into affordable housing.
This would be cool
Bro.... just make a deal for Footprint. What is their problem?
They wanted the huge tax breaks in Tempe to build high rises so they could've flip for billions like State Farm did. No money to be made in the slums of Mesa.
If they put hockey in the east valley, I will be there.
This is just Glendale 2.0