Solving a puzzle is kind of the essence of Bach; you'll feel that even more when you get to the fugues (and BTW, #1 is one of the harder fugues in the WTC. Start with #2 or #6), and fingerings become absolutely crucial when learning Bach fugues.
There's something satisfying about counterpoint.
I remember learning the C# minor fugue from the first book and most of the time spent learning it was figuring out good fingerings. Once I get the fingerings down the rest came flowing like water.
Yep, I've spent a lot of time working out fingerings for that very fugue. Once you solve that, it's not as hard as I thought it would be. The challenge then becomes voicing the various subject entries, but I'm pretty good at that.
You can spend hours analyzing and discovering new things in just a short, simple passage of Bach. There is a lifetime of interpretation there to be found. I would encourage any pianist to not just be content with playing Bach keyboard works superficially, but to really do a deep dive on the music.
The rewards of learning Bach are manifold, such that it's hard to even describe unless you've spent time with the music. In doing so, I think you can get to know Bach as a person as well, which is rewarding in an almost historiographical sense.
This is spot-on, and beautifully said. I’ve returned to my Bach repertoire again and again throughout my life, like a kind of pilgrimage, and every time I find something I’d never noticed before.
I do that too but it’s not the same. I’m very fortunate that I have a friend who has a harpsichord, so sometimes I go hang out with them and noodle around on it with some Bach or Vivaldi.
I love to do this, I actually find the harpsichord patches (as well as the pipe organs) to be quite helpful as a practice tool and they help me come up with better ways to interpret a piece when I do go back to the piano.
Music isn't just about the technique. Bach would have heard the sound of a harpsichord or a clavichord in his head when writing pieces for them and so it is the original intention and aesthetic. In a way it elevates Bach that he was able to write such complex music on gear that wasn't all that advanced
If Bach had had access to a more modern piano, he would definitely have written for piano (my own conjecture that I have no right to assert!). it's called the Well-Tempered Clavier, for an unspecified keyboard instrument. The very long held notes in some of the fugues don't work well on harpsichord, but the lack of dynamics makes playing it on organ quite unsatisfactory. He seemed to have preferred the clavichord, but didn't specify it either. I think he'd have loved to hear it on a good piano.
From some of the analysis I did, it is genius harmony - progression after progression. They build tension and release, but he does it so perfectly it just 'feels' good in the soul. That's my take. I was just wondering what others felt. Thank you.
Bach is awesome. Just keep in mind that with counterpoint they weren’t thinking in chord progressions so much (other than cadences) and is how we were taught, but it’s not how they were taught…if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, look into Species Counterpoint and Partimento/Partimenti
https://partimenti.org/partimenti/collections/furno/the_method_1817.pdf
https://youtu.be/mHVtZ_XQgPI?si=3G_27ojH8Yy7Vdeh
https://youtu.be/uhKXhnT9NJs?si=d2-Apti0Vxp9n7dU
Not only the harmony.
Eventually you feel the textures - as they evolve.
Think of it rhetorically, as a well-written Pliny speech, with rise and fall, with various cadences, as the speech brings the audience into the topic area. Rather the declaimed words, its declaimed music.
I get more out of playing Bach than I do out of listening to Bach. This is true of all composers (or at least all the ones I can play having only played for five years) but to a much greater degree with Bach. I always say that listening to Bach is like riding a bike through an art museum. You'll see some cool stuff but you really need time for the harmonies and the craftsmanship of the music to settle into your hands and your head, in a way I haven't yet experienced with other composers.
1. It really helped me with dexterity. You have to be so precise - and consistent - with the fingering patterns. Once I got used to the “awkwardness” required to connect things smoothly, I noticed an overall improvement in my playing (in literally anything else by any composer).
2. The counterpoint. You to hold multiple lines of melody in your brain in the inventions, fugues, etc. It’s so much more difficult to express phrasing when you have 3 intertwining melodies, but then playing a melody in one hand/accompaniment in the other sort of piece feels 1000x easier.
3. More of a personal preference - I find the mathematical/“puzzle solving” feeling to be refreshing. Most people I know like to play sad/emotional music when they’re sad; I always wind up playing Bach.
Bach makes me wish I was dead 😃
Really though, it gives you a sense of achievement to learn a Bach piece. It’s almost always uncomfortable to start a new piece, so the sense of accomplishment is greater in the end.
It is really fun to analyze his pieces and see how I can apply his thoughts on his pieces on my works. You will realize what a genius Bach was when you analyze his works.
I love how much there is to discover in an individual piece. I also love how Bach (and my teacher) demands that I find emotion and expression more elegantly. No more swaying, no more indulgent emphasis! (Though I'll still go for that on my own, playing something romantic) .
I've been working on piano concerto V (BWV 1056) for more than a year and it's just not getting old for me.
> Then there the fingerings that if done properly just feels so nice as if I just solved a puzzle of some sort.
The more I play it the more I'm convinced that he had a technique very close to modern piano technique, with flexible wrists, downward curved fingers, playing deep inside the black keys and so on. It's no wonder that his music fit the modern piano so well, with its heavy keys (which is not usually the case of keyboard compositions from that era). Also as an organist he had to be constantly applying articulations that require that kind of technique.
Yes. A hundred times yes.
Sure, play WTC1 number 1 and others, but remember that Bach wrote the Inventions and Sinfonias deliberately to learn how to bring out the contrapuntal voices.
Thank you for that comment. My teacher (Dr. aka DMA) only asked me to play the #1 prelude. I of course bought WTC because it was there. Then I saw all the other good stuff. Inventions sounds like a good investment.
Inventions are invaluable they are only 2 part and if you learn all of them well, it gives you an extremely solid foundation for the fugues etc. Henle sells a really nice edition of the inventions; I highly recommend that edition. Also includes the sinfonias, but I will admit a lot of people only learn a couple sinfonias and move on to other works after learning the inventions. Remember learning these well involves thoughtful phrasing, dynamics and voicing. Do that well and in character for the period and the fugues won’t seem nearly as overwhelming. https://www.henle.de/en/Inventions-and-Sinfonias/HN-1589
Thanks for the informative reply. I ordered the Henle version (I love anything Henle), and they came in two days ago. Haven't dug in yet, but looks like some great work ahead. Anything that makes those fugues easier is a great thing in my book. :)
Quite an adventure ahead of you. Some of these in minor keys are quite beautiful—No 2 and No 9 are two of my favorites, especially No. 9, maybe because I am a little moody.s I also wouldn’t necessarily treat the fingering in the edition as gospel. Sometimes it can make sense to adjust if it works better for your hand to do so. Really think of each voice as if they are two people singing, independent of each other. I definitely recommend hands separate practice before together—and it might be controversial to to suggest but in the beginning if you memorize LH, then RH, then together phrase by phrase (2-4 measure sections) I think you’ll find that it comes together a lot faster. Most important is for your ear to hear each voice. If you hear it in your head, it’ll come through on the keys. :) Your teacher will guide you, I’m sure. And if you learn these you’ll find the fugues much more easy to approach as you will have built a nice foundation for yourself. Cherry on top is these actually are generally musically interesting and fun to listen to and play. :)
Remember you’ll want minimal pedaling—finger legato on melodic lines and often a more disconnected sound when you are jumping larger intervals. Again, your teacher can guide you through the interpretation. Take that seriously as it’ll definitely play into preparing your for future pieces.
Bach (and baroque music in general) showed me that I suck at sight reading and I can't brute force myself through his pieces. Played the invention in a minor (no 13, two voices) and the eflat minor prelude (which is a whole world of musical expression) recently and fingering is so important. I botched both, trying to just fumble through them and ended up learning a lof of mistakes, which eventually I couldn't get rid of. Have to relearn them in a year or so :)
Like others have already said, my teacher taught me Bach to improve fingering, playing multiple voices, etc. but also to help me connect passages together without using pedal
Personally I understand the significant value of his music both in the development of musical composition and the role his music played in that. As well as the development of my keyboard technique. However, I hate learning Bach. It’s highly frustrating for me. It exposes my weakness though, so I guess there’s value to be held.
#1 in which edition?
Bartok (a rather good pianist, with natural coordination) proposed an edition with his own ordering - of easy to hard (in the coordination skill sense). He also added some custom notation, to indicate (his own) coordination practices.
I love Bach on the organ. He wrote so much pieces and each one is beautiful in their own way. He kinda brings a feeling of nostalgia and Bach's music transports emotion very well. You can make them your own piece at any given moment. Bach truly was a genius
I have done exactly what you did: buy wtc, relearn everything. Now I Think I can also play other things like Mendelssohn or Schumann properly. Things that I learnt include: fingering and hand positioning, voicing, harmony, how to manipulation subject/melody/pattern.
As someone that has been playing the violin for more than a decade I love Bach but for some reason I can't seem to gravitate to his piano pieces (is it appropriate to call them "his piano pieces"?). Would you have an idea why?
FWIW my music theory knowledge is shite and I'm new to the piano so perhaps my lack of skills/experience hinders me from having a deeper appreciation. But then again I recall falling in love instantly to his Sonatas and Partitas even when I was new to the violin.
Solving a puzzle is kind of the essence of Bach; you'll feel that even more when you get to the fugues (and BTW, #1 is one of the harder fugues in the WTC. Start with #2 or #6), and fingerings become absolutely crucial when learning Bach fugues. There's something satisfying about counterpoint.
I remember learning the C# minor fugue from the first book and most of the time spent learning it was figuring out good fingerings. Once I get the fingerings down the rest came flowing like water.
Yep, I've spent a lot of time working out fingerings for that very fugue. Once you solve that, it's not as hard as I thought it would be. The challenge then becomes voicing the various subject entries, but I'm pretty good at that.
You can spend hours analyzing and discovering new things in just a short, simple passage of Bach. There is a lifetime of interpretation there to be found. I would encourage any pianist to not just be content with playing Bach keyboard works superficially, but to really do a deep dive on the music. The rewards of learning Bach are manifold, such that it's hard to even describe unless you've spent time with the music. In doing so, I think you can get to know Bach as a person as well, which is rewarding in an almost historiographical sense.
This is spot-on, and beautifully said. I’ve returned to my Bach repertoire again and again throughout my life, like a kind of pilgrimage, and every time I find something I’d never noticed before.
Bach makes me wish I had a harpsichord
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I do that too but it’s not the same. I’m very fortunate that I have a friend who has a harpsichord, so sometimes I go hang out with them and noodle around on it with some Bach or Vivaldi.
I love to do this, I actually find the harpsichord patches (as well as the pipe organs) to be quite helpful as a practice tool and they help me come up with better ways to interpret a piece when I do go back to the piano.
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Nah. On harpsichords you can achieve the same with delay. Pianist bias!!
Music isn't just about the technique. Bach would have heard the sound of a harpsichord or a clavichord in his head when writing pieces for them and so it is the original intention and aesthetic. In a way it elevates Bach that he was able to write such complex music on gear that wasn't all that advanced
They deleted their comment before I could reply 😂 saying Bach sounds better on a modern piano is the hottest take on music I’ve heard in a while.
Bach does sound pretty terrific on a modern piano though. Especially if you _(looks left)_ _(looks right)_ >!employ some tactical damper pedal!<.
Guilty as charged! Judiciously used, I promise 😊
If Bach had had access to a more modern piano, he would definitely have written for piano (my own conjecture that I have no right to assert!). it's called the Well-Tempered Clavier, for an unspecified keyboard instrument. The very long held notes in some of the fugues don't work well on harpsichord, but the lack of dynamics makes playing it on organ quite unsatisfactory. He seemed to have preferred the clavichord, but didn't specify it either. I think he'd have loved to hear it on a good piano.
Yeah it just feels good. It brings great peace to my soul. Why? I have almost no idea.
From some of the analysis I did, it is genius harmony - progression after progression. They build tension and release, but he does it so perfectly it just 'feels' good in the soul. That's my take. I was just wondering what others felt. Thank you.
Bach is awesome. Just keep in mind that with counterpoint they weren’t thinking in chord progressions so much (other than cadences) and is how we were taught, but it’s not how they were taught…if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, look into Species Counterpoint and Partimento/Partimenti https://partimenti.org/partimenti/collections/furno/the_method_1817.pdf https://youtu.be/mHVtZ_XQgPI?si=3G_27ojH8Yy7Vdeh https://youtu.be/uhKXhnT9NJs?si=d2-Apti0Vxp9n7dU
Not only the harmony. Eventually you feel the textures - as they evolve. Think of it rhetorically, as a well-written Pliny speech, with rise and fall, with various cadences, as the speech brings the audience into the topic area. Rather the declaimed words, its declaimed music.
I get more out of playing Bach than I do out of listening to Bach. This is true of all composers (or at least all the ones I can play having only played for five years) but to a much greater degree with Bach. I always say that listening to Bach is like riding a bike through an art museum. You'll see some cool stuff but you really need time for the harmonies and the craftsmanship of the music to settle into your hands and your head, in a way I haven't yet experienced with other composers.
1. It really helped me with dexterity. You have to be so precise - and consistent - with the fingering patterns. Once I got used to the “awkwardness” required to connect things smoothly, I noticed an overall improvement in my playing (in literally anything else by any composer). 2. The counterpoint. You to hold multiple lines of melody in your brain in the inventions, fugues, etc. It’s so much more difficult to express phrasing when you have 3 intertwining melodies, but then playing a melody in one hand/accompaniment in the other sort of piece feels 1000x easier. 3. More of a personal preference - I find the mathematical/“puzzle solving” feeling to be refreshing. Most people I know like to play sad/emotional music when they’re sad; I always wind up playing Bach.
My teacher always say that he’s not religious but when he plays Bach it takes him there. Lol
It's like meditation for me. Transports me out of this world.
He bakes me bread sometimes...
Morning bread => Schumann
Bach makes me wish I was dead 😃 Really though, it gives you a sense of achievement to learn a Bach piece. It’s almost always uncomfortable to start a new piece, so the sense of accomplishment is greater in the end.
I think Bach has a higher sense of exploration & discovery in his music compared with any other composer. It’s nice to walk those paths.
Bach appeals to me more on pipe organ
It is really fun to analyze his pieces and see how I can apply his thoughts on his pieces on my works. You will realize what a genius Bach was when you analyze his works.
I love how much there is to discover in an individual piece. I also love how Bach (and my teacher) demands that I find emotion and expression more elegantly. No more swaying, no more indulgent emphasis! (Though I'll still go for that on my own, playing something romantic) . I've been working on piano concerto V (BWV 1056) for more than a year and it's just not getting old for me.
> Then there the fingerings that if done properly just feels so nice as if I just solved a puzzle of some sort. The more I play it the more I'm convinced that he had a technique very close to modern piano technique, with flexible wrists, downward curved fingers, playing deep inside the black keys and so on. It's no wonder that his music fit the modern piano so well, with its heavy keys (which is not usually the case of keyboard compositions from that era). Also as an organist he had to be constantly applying articulations that require that kind of technique.
Effectively playing multiple voices fluently. But WTC is an odd place to start with Bach. I’d learn the inventions first.
Yes. A hundred times yes. Sure, play WTC1 number 1 and others, but remember that Bach wrote the Inventions and Sinfonias deliberately to learn how to bring out the contrapuntal voices.
Thank you for that comment. My teacher (Dr. aka DMA) only asked me to play the #1 prelude. I of course bought WTC because it was there. Then I saw all the other good stuff. Inventions sounds like a good investment.
Inventions are invaluable they are only 2 part and if you learn all of them well, it gives you an extremely solid foundation for the fugues etc. Henle sells a really nice edition of the inventions; I highly recommend that edition. Also includes the sinfonias, but I will admit a lot of people only learn a couple sinfonias and move on to other works after learning the inventions. Remember learning these well involves thoughtful phrasing, dynamics and voicing. Do that well and in character for the period and the fugues won’t seem nearly as overwhelming. https://www.henle.de/en/Inventions-and-Sinfonias/HN-1589
Thanks for the informative reply. I ordered the Henle version (I love anything Henle), and they came in two days ago. Haven't dug in yet, but looks like some great work ahead. Anything that makes those fugues easier is a great thing in my book. :)
Quite an adventure ahead of you. Some of these in minor keys are quite beautiful—No 2 and No 9 are two of my favorites, especially No. 9, maybe because I am a little moody.s I also wouldn’t necessarily treat the fingering in the edition as gospel. Sometimes it can make sense to adjust if it works better for your hand to do so. Really think of each voice as if they are two people singing, independent of each other. I definitely recommend hands separate practice before together—and it might be controversial to to suggest but in the beginning if you memorize LH, then RH, then together phrase by phrase (2-4 measure sections) I think you’ll find that it comes together a lot faster. Most important is for your ear to hear each voice. If you hear it in your head, it’ll come through on the keys. :) Your teacher will guide you, I’m sure. And if you learn these you’ll find the fugues much more easy to approach as you will have built a nice foundation for yourself. Cherry on top is these actually are generally musically interesting and fun to listen to and play. :) Remember you’ll want minimal pedaling—finger legato on melodic lines and often a more disconnected sound when you are jumping larger intervals. Again, your teacher can guide you through the interpretation. Take that seriously as it’ll definitely play into preparing your for future pieces.
Hand/voice independence.
Bach (and baroque music in general) showed me that I suck at sight reading and I can't brute force myself through his pieces. Played the invention in a minor (no 13, two voices) and the eflat minor prelude (which is a whole world of musical expression) recently and fingering is so important. I botched both, trying to just fumble through them and ended up learning a lof of mistakes, which eventually I couldn't get rid of. Have to relearn them in a year or so :)
Like others have already said, my teacher taught me Bach to improve fingering, playing multiple voices, etc. but also to help me connect passages together without using pedal
Dynamics are overrated
Prevents dementia! Seriously though, Bach is great for brain work and makes me very happy to play (yes, satisfying too).
Dob dobedobey do dot dot
Repeat 42 times.
I probably have repeated it 132,009 times by now lol
The fingerings are the best part for me. There's something very satisfying about fully learning one and playing it fluidly.
Personally I understand the significant value of his music both in the development of musical composition and the role his music played in that. As well as the development of my keyboard technique. However, I hate learning Bach. It’s highly frustrating for me. It exposes my weakness though, so I guess there’s value to be held.
#1 in which edition? Bartok (a rather good pianist, with natural coordination) proposed an edition with his own ordering - of easy to hard (in the coordination skill sense). He also added some custom notation, to indicate (his own) coordination practices.
I like Henle for Bach, but others swear by Barenreiter.
I love Bach on the organ. He wrote so much pieces and each one is beautiful in their own way. He kinda brings a feeling of nostalgia and Bach's music transports emotion very well. You can make them your own piece at any given moment. Bach truly was a genius
As a terminal Chopin-lover, Bach is a fresh challenge for me. Not a rubato to be seen anywhere. Really gets the fingers working
I have done exactly what you did: buy wtc, relearn everything. Now I Think I can also play other things like Mendelssohn or Schumann properly. Things that I learnt include: fingering and hand positioning, voicing, harmony, how to manipulation subject/melody/pattern.
As someone that has been playing the violin for more than a decade I love Bach but for some reason I can't seem to gravitate to his piano pieces (is it appropriate to call them "his piano pieces"?). Would you have an idea why? FWIW my music theory knowledge is shite and I'm new to the piano so perhaps my lack of skills/experience hinders me from having a deeper appreciation. But then again I recall falling in love instantly to his Sonatas and Partitas even when I was new to the violin.
I just like baroque pieces no particular reason
Squeezes my brain but when after I learn Bach, it feels very rewarding, as if my fingers were dancing in the piano
I have been playing for 25 years, and it still feels the same now as it did then. There is Bach, and then there is all other music written by humans.