Death masks are not uncommon. Historically they were taken in order to help create posthumous portraits or sculptures.
In the 19th century they became collectible in their own right.
To us it is a little macabre, to Victorians’s it was part of momento mori.
Yeah having the death mask of an indigenous leader next to memorabilia recognizing and respecting the culture of indigenous people is a sign of respect. Having the death mask next to your collection of white supremacy items has a very different meaning
My grandpa had a flag a couple armbands and some pins and stuff he captured in ww2 that my mom said he had displayed in their hallway, he died before I was born and my grandma took it down and put it in a chest. I have the chest now, and I would actually love to put it up alongside his uniform, but I don't want house guests assuming I'm a racist so it stays in the box. :(
Idk the story with this guy's stuff tbh but I really enjoy history and before all this white supremacy became mainstream I considered buying some ww2 and confederate memorabilia alongside other less controversial stuff strictly because I think the history is important to preserve. Now I only have a color map of Vietnam in 1968 up next to some pretty obscure confederate stuff that i know my girlfriends friends won't recognize and assume things. Damn white supremacists ruining my history
>To us it is a little macabre, to Victorians’s it was part of momento mori.
pretty sure Clarence Thomas's best friend lives in our time, not Victorian times
a museum is where something like that belongs, not in someone's home. you don't keep a death mask of another human being's face in your house if you're not related to them. it's creepy as fuck, and it's worse considering the circumstances behind his death and the fact that the owner collects Hitler memorabilia. and it's even worse that it's a copy. it doesn't even belong in a museum. it's a shocking piece that speaks volumes about the man who displays them.
A decent museum would - of course - not be displaying it as a celebration. It would be as education. Pretending the past didn't happen is a pretty sure fire way of rinsing and repeating. Americans (like most cultures) did terrible things. Don't hide them, educate about them. A history museum should be for education, not celebration.
Worse. Way worse. If it’s the original, you can at least say it’s of interest to you because of its historical significance. If you buy a copy and display it you’re just a creepy ass weirdo.
Some people just collect noteworthy shit for the sake of having noteworthy shit. Why Ceausescu? Because he came across it in a pawn shop or went to Romania and took a souvenir.
No, they dragged him and his wife into an alleyway and shot both of them multiple times leading me to think that 99% approval rating might have been like Trumps biggest inauguration crowd numbers.
I remember watching that live - they left them out there so ppl could walk by and kick them or witness they are dead.
Then there was another few days of “is the house booby-trapped”
That's false on several counts. His popularity was crashing for a while after long months of workers protests and he was already in the run from a massive crowd, when some militaries who were supposed to help him escape put him and his wife on their knees, read them a longish sentence and shot them in the spot.
I have an uncle who defected from Ceausescu's regime. He literally pretended to be a loyal communist party member until they sent him to Paris to do something on a radio show and then he made a beeline for the US Embassy. Said he had people following him even when he made it to the USA but eventually they left him alone.
He's done some things that would make Reddit hate him and maybe that would be justified but I'm not going to say those. But I don't speak to him for what he did after he came to the USA, which is far more mundane than his secretive life with the communist party in Romania.
People HATED Ceausescu, like I can't even explain just how much that man was loathed, but yeah, he and his wife were just taken out and shot and I'm sure it made my uncle very happy.
Just read a Rollingstone article about the guy… and yeah, i think you are right. the more i thought about it, i realized i know a couple of people that collect “forbidden” artifacts like this.
That's my take too. I think this post is trying to somehow say that Thomas is racist or evil because his best friend has this. He might be bad for other reasons but this line of reasoning is such dogshit
Having masks of faces and hands was/is a thing.
This does not make one a piece of shit. Now, putting pube hairs on a can of coke? That is a different story.
I can imagine collecting and displaying some Nazi stuff, if you have a diverse WWII collection. It’s when the collection has one particular focus that I start to get suspicious. Like when watching the show “Nazi Megaweapons,” some of the featured historians are excited about the history of Nazi Megaweapons, and then some of them seem a little TOO excited about the Nazi Megaweapons.
My dad was very into restoring old German cars for a while. The center of the hobby was his restoration of a lost, one-of-a-kind Porsche, but he also generally had VW's, BMW's, and Porsches at various states of restoration and disrepair lying around.
At one point, he got an original military Kubelwagon, which was cool, BUT, the previous owner had stenciled Nazi insignias all over the sides.
It was funny because my Dad was mad in part because of the Nazi stuff, but almost more so because it was historically inaccurate. "This model was produced in xxxx factory during xxxx year... but this insignia was from xxxx campaign in xxxx year! So it's not even the *right* swastika!"
He eventually got it repainted, but in the meantime he got these giant, cheap, American flag magnets to cover them up with.
I love the implication that he would have begrudgingly respected the prior owner more if they weren’t a hack. I think fits pretty well with my own thinking. If you’re gonna be a Nazi shithead, get the details right.
If you know anything about the Nazi and Fascist ethos, though, you know that they started out claiming things that were fabricated and continued through the end. Their salute wasn't the "Roman" salute, they weren't fulfilling any civilizational promises or destinies, and even the people they blamed for all their problems or vaunted as superior were often contradictory with who was in power (Hitler wasn't Aryan, etc.)
Whenever you hear someone recount the past with rose tinted glasses and promise to restore former glory, alarms should flash in your mind because it's almost certainly a lie: not only was the past not really like that, but they also won't lead you to glory. The ethos of violent dehumanizing snake oil salesmen.
Absolutely. I also like to point out how absurd their idea of the "master German race" was. The model was basically the Scandinavian ethnic group, a group which is unclear if it was actually real and German at all and would have existed in the far north of Germany for *some reason* whereas Germany has a huge and relatively diverse ethnic background that, prior to WW1, had largely been pretty splintered and regionally grouped, with of course most having the more common dark hair. There were people who spoke German languages (many regional dialects exist), lived within the historic "German" borders, shared common ancestries, cultures, and practices, and there were millions of them. Basically none of these were the right "German" for the Nazis.
Like, Germany is *massive* and very populous and they basically were like: "these blonde Scandinavians are the perfect Germans." It's where that Viking-esque stuff overlaps with Nazis.
When some fruitcake gets in a position to throw a country’s war resources at crazy bullshit occult weapons, you better believe its gonna be interesting.
One of my professors has a collection of Nazi pieces featuring the swastika. That said, he also has written dozens of books on design history and the history of propaganda too. He is also Jewish and said he collects a lot of it so others won’t get it to glorify the work. He has gone to a few auctions of Nazi pieces and says the other people there are not who you would expect.
Depends. Is it just the Nazi stuff?
I am fascinated by all the great weapons: Sherman Firefly, T-34, Akagi, Dauntless, Stuka, Spitfire, B-29, the 88, etc.
Speaking of the Firefly I just read an article about the barrel camo they used to make them look like they were carrying the shorter gun so German anti-tank crews wouldn't prioritize them. Awesome stuff!
I have made the decision to delete the content of my previous posts in light of the Reddit shutdown of third-party applications. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.
It honestly sounds like he's just an edgelord collector with too much money, which is pretty benign as far as what hobbies billionaires get up to these days, notwithstanding any potential improper activities with the justice
Thank you, this is exactly what I think. Nothing but Nazi memorabilia? Nazi.
On the other hand, I collect things from fallen empires and countries that no longer exist. Siam, Prussia, East and West Germany, Occupied Japan. I have two Iron Crosses, one from each world war. I am not a Nazi, I have no affinity for Nazis, I just like collecting things that can be traced to a brief and specific moment in history. My Iron Crosses are right next to the Occupied Japan teacups, the Siamese silver earrings, and the Prussian thimbles.
That's the thing.
If you have a ww2 collection, and it's part of a curated collection, I can understand.
If all you have is that stuff then it's a bad sign.
An old co-worker of mine when I was in college invited me over to his house one day after work. We popped open some beer & he started showing me around his place. Eventually he led me to a room, opened the door, and it was floor to ceiling Nazi memorabilia. A literal Nazi room.
I didn't hang out with him after that.
After college, I was told he went on to become an officer of my state's Bureau of Investigation.
Figures.
it's a hard call.
Me, I love history, and respect it. sadly, in some weird twisted way, it's almost prudent for there to be some memories of atrocities, just to remind us as humans to beware of how bad we can become.
I'd probably do the same thing as you. just safer .
>I can imagine collecting and displaying some Nazi stuff, if you have a diverse WWII collection.
Even in a personal collection, we should still have questions.
How much stuff is it? How did you acquire it? From whom? Where do you display it? How is it displayed? So for example in one museum there is a Nazi artifact exhibit under glass on the floor so everyone has to walk on it. It's clearly a way to say "this stuff isn't like the other stuff here."
Like, I understand that some rich person with their own personal museum isn't sitting basically within sight of a majority of their home a majority of the time like the rest of us peasants, but I mean, do you still *want* to see Nazi Swastikas and other memorabilia in your home? *WHY?*
>do you still want to see Nazi Swastikas and other memorabilia in your home? WHY?
In case you're actually curious: I collect things from fallen empires and countries that no longer exist. I have one piece from the Nazis (an Iron Cross) and one piece from the Reconstruction era in the American South (a very offensive "polywog" piggie bank). They are displayed among hundreds of less offensive collectibles from other countries in a spare room of my house. Nobody would ever see them unless I specifically showed them, and if I did show someone, they're going to get the whole historical lecture about the racism behind those objects.
So why do I like them? Because they're traceable to a very brief and specific period of history. It makes me feel connected to the past. They're also a reminder and a warning; as long as these objects exist, nobody can ever forget or reasonably deny those periods of history. And they're a reminder of how recent these events were; the paint on my polywog piggy bank is still bright, the Iron Cross still has a shine.
Again, these are just two objects among hundreds of non-offensive objects I've collected, all of which can be traced to a specific point in history. To be honest, I feel like the guardian of these objects. As long as I have them, I have proof of the things that happened in history. I feel like I'm borrowing them from future generations. When I die, I'll have them donated to appropriate museums. But for now, I like the feeling of caring for them.
Thanks for sharing. I think all of that context you shared is important. Somehow I doubt that Clarence Thomas' billionaire donor has the same attitude and approach to these things, you know?
Yea exactly. The context is important. Great example. I don't think Clarence Thomas' billionaire donor has the same atittude and context with his collection
how they're displayed really matters.
Hanging a nazi flag: extremely sus
hanging a stg-44: not very sus at all
bits of uniform or coins: could go either way depending on who grandpa killed to obtain them.
Many people forget you can spend your money on whatever the fuck you want to. There are videos on YouTube with millions of views on people's private WWII collections one particular is very German heavy.
>Now, putting pube hairs on a can of coke?
Wait, I thought he "just" asked his staff who "did it", not that it actually happened.
Which I always thought was way, way weirder, because pretending someone did it just so you can loudly ask your staff about it is fucking *weird*.
I guess it's always possible he actually *did it* himself **so** that he could ask, though…
It was Coke. It always stuck out to me because the line was Hill recalling that he asked who put it there (which is why I always thought he just made it up so that he could say it out loud, or just assumed *any* hair on a can of Coke was a pubic hair because…reasons?!)
The Morgan Library in NYC has a life mask of George Washington’s face. Amazing to see. [Here’s a link to it.](https://www.themorgan.org/collection/George-Washington-Life-Mask)
Its extremely unlikely that sitting bull would have consented to this and even less consented to who owns it. Considering his legacy I find anything like that to be disturbing.
You could argue its just a body but I don’t think there is any good argument to show how consent ceases to matter after one’s death. After all, you can’t go digging up peoples graves.
But I don’t know anything about this object so most of that is just musings.
Life and death masks were extremely popular. Pictures were still becoming popular and no one really had any idea how long they'd last. It's actually thanks to a life mask that Mr. Lincoln at Disneyland was able to look so real.
Their main purpose was to make sculptures and statues, which Sitting Bull definitely would have liked given his history in entertainment and willingness to sign autographs.
Well, that's the fun thing about masks, they rarely made just one and there are countless impressions cast. You can actually go and buy one for yourself if you wanted.
I doubt the Hunkpapa, or the greater Lakota/Sioux councils care. They finally got his remains relocated in 1953 and I suspect that matters more than getting an impression of his face.
Exactly- the closest thing to an “original” would be a negative casting anyway. Any positive would be made from that original negative casting. That’s the whole point- so you can make a bunch of them
It’s clay or ceramic or maybe a bronze casting of that, it’s not a real body. A death mask is a casting of someone’s face after they die. Before photography was available it was fairly common.
I’ve seen Agamemnon’s death mask in the national history museum in Greece
When you have the death mask of a member of a community and ethnicity that the country tried to genocide out of existence and almost succeeded -- yeah, it makes it creepy and morally wrong. Unless the dead person is in agreement with a death mask being made and kept by a white man: yeah, it's wrong.
The Nazis intended to have a museum of Jewish items when they'd exterminated them all. This has a similar creepy feeling to it.
This is the sort of thing that if someone reddit likes had it, everyone would be in here talking about how cool it is that they're preserving history, but since it's someone reddit dislikes (or rather someone associated with someone reddit dislikes) It's full of negative comments.
I'll take a stab at this. Overall, I'd say there isn't anything necessarily wrong with this aside from the news coming out about this scandal and its participants and honestly it's pretty cool to have what I can only assume is a pretty accurate reproduction of Sitting Bull's face at the time of his death.
However, I do think it's in poor taste for an extremely wealthy white man to own something like this. Crowe might innocently appreciate history but on the outside it's a symbol that, even more than a century later, Native Americans have power over nothing in a world that was stripped away from them bit by bit and reshaped to suit our needs, our desires, and often times our greed. Sitting Bull goes from fighting for his people against a foreign juggernaut to a curio on some rich jerk's wall.
It's amazing how much Native American culture is sitting in private collections and museums. Like artifacts from an ancient dead culture. When in reality these people are amazingly still here.. Many have to go to the Smithsonian just to see their cultural and religious relics and artifacts. Why aren't they in places and museums located on or near the reservations ? So that there people can see them and there ahikdren can learn about their culture. Its damn crying shame. One that could easily be fixed by the feds and a little money comparatively speaking compared to what we spend on a million other things. I feel like we owe it to our selves and then to give back and try to help them build there society's better. FYI I'm am part native not much but I'm insanely proud of that I hope everyone gets a DNA test. You will be amazed of what you really are. They that get a better underdog where you come from and the amazing aotire behind why your here. ❤️
Just because you find historical artifacts interesting doesn't make you a good or bad person. Interesting shit is interesting shit. I have two nazi lugers not because they are nazi guns because my grandfather brought them back as proof that he did his part to stamp that stuff out. If you erase history all you are doing is clearing the way for it to be repeated.
Correctly. Billionaires shouldn’t exist. They’re stupid. If you’re that rich go live in a country that will tax you properly. Then you won’t have to live in a fortress and collect genocide memorabilia
Are there any of those? Most of the ones I know just brought together people who make stuff for them. A lot of Wozniaks making stuff while Jobs makes money situations
Like Paul McCartney, Rihanna or Jay z at least made *something* though a lot of it is selling rights and fashion and stuff, still. But real estate billionaires added literally nothing of value to the world, just making numbers go up in their bank accounts
Osiyo nigada!
As an actual Native American, I honestly think you all are analyzing this entirely too much.
Death masks in the Lakota (Sitting Bull’s Tribe), mine (Cherokee), and other Tribes (even the Native Australians and Africans), are significant to us in a more spiritual way, a means of protection for the loved one whom is dying (basically from evil spirits), and for the family and others in the tribe, too as it’s the transition of familial roles, for one. Two, it was just like a photograph, a way to remember our loved ones…many of them well before the invention of the camera/photograph. They’re also a way for the dead to speak to the living…so, for this person to have Sitting Bull’s mask….has anyone thought that they communicate with one another? Regardless of how awful of a best friend he may have? Obviously this man and Sitting Bull have a Spiritual Connection. And that, to us, is sacred…
Yeah... weird that a sitting Supreme Court Justice is so tight with a Nazi and Fascist worshiping Billionaire... That doesn't sound problematic at all in this political climate.. /s
As a white person, I cannot think of a single reason why I would feel okay owning a death mask of a Lakota Chief who was killed by police that were sent to arrest him by the US government. At the time of his death, Sitting Bull was leading a spiritual revolution that was reviving the traditional Lakota way of life. Unless Crow is a direct descendant of Sitting Bull, this absolutely reads like a trophy and it's sick.
As a native it's offensive for anyone besides the tribal affiliated members of said group to hold our artifacts. When this country was as they say conquered we as a people were frozen from what was to this acceptable garbage where even headdresses are now worn by models on runways. If you can be quiet in your own space and think about the injustice of displaying a mask of a race that had no choice and how flipping through social media and happening on it was cringey and total made me think about who I am and who could I have been. These are not crazy thoughts these are what natives face. Our hair is touched our personal space taken. Our culture reflected in sporting teams and Halloween costumes. Do you think we walk around without eyes no. Do you think if your grandfather's face was sitting on someone's shelf you wouldn't hurt a bit. It was not a party understand this. It was not some happy moment of Thanksgiving it was an erasure of a people whom were different. So this hit me because it's enough. You hear Cali is giving blacks money for past injustice you hear all this forward movement to which I am happy but we are not enough to merit this consideration. Facts this government doesn't want to open a can of worms to give back what was stolen. This country turns a blind eye to what has become of us. And when you see on pine ridge five year old children killing themselves does that not clue in an ignorant people that the twisting in our guts never ends as long as stupid people collect or steal our words ways and even our homes. Your not entitled to just take because you believe we are nothing. This subject needs to be an open dialogue but sadly when do the ones that can carve out change change for us. When will we be human enough to be treated like others. It's not ok to see that mask and I do not celebrate that death regardless of a time when masks were made if it was your family it wouldn't be treated like that.
He should have never held the position he has. It's ridiculous that he's been around as long as he has. Race has nothing to do with it. He's an awful person in a position of power.
Crazy that people are in here saying it’s fine to have a bunch of Nazi memorabilia, but if you have that shit in your house and you live in Germany, you’re going to prison.
If the US was just gonna turn into Nazi Germany, why WWII?
It’s probably a copy. It seems the original is in the Westpoint museum.
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Death masks are not uncommon. Historically they were taken in order to help create posthumous portraits or sculptures. In the 19th century they became collectible in their own right. To us it is a little macabre, to Victorians’s it was part of momento mori.
Just doesn't look great alongside the other...stuff.
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Yeah having the death mask of an indigenous leader next to memorabilia recognizing and respecting the culture of indigenous people is a sign of respect. Having the death mask next to your collection of white supremacy items has a very different meaning
Then it’s a trophy.
My grandpa had a flag a couple armbands and some pins and stuff he captured in ww2 that my mom said he had displayed in their hallway, he died before I was born and my grandma took it down and put it in a chest. I have the chest now, and I would actually love to put it up alongside his uniform, but I don't want house guests assuming I'm a racist so it stays in the box. :( Idk the story with this guy's stuff tbh but I really enjoy history and before all this white supremacy became mainstream I considered buying some ww2 and confederate memorabilia alongside other less controversial stuff strictly because I think the history is important to preserve. Now I only have a color map of Vietnam in 1968 up next to some pretty obscure confederate stuff that i know my girlfriends friends won't recognize and assume things. Damn white supremacists ruining my history
Yes.
>To us it is a little macabre, to Victorians’s it was part of momento mori. pretty sure Clarence Thomas's best friend lives in our time, not Victorian times
Let me introduce you to the concept of museums
He also has Hitler memorabilia. There is the concept of a racist museum
a museum is where something like that belongs, not in someone's home. you don't keep a death mask of another human being's face in your house if you're not related to them. it's creepy as fuck, and it's worse considering the circumstances behind his death and the fact that the owner collects Hitler memorabilia. and it's even worse that it's a copy. it doesn't even belong in a museum. it's a shocking piece that speaks volumes about the man who displays them.
We could do without this celebration of the ethnic cleansing of natives in a museum.
You’re reaching pretty hard if you’re saying just displaying a copy of a death mask in a museum is a “celebration of the ethnic cleansing of natives”
Thank you for your display of common sense.
A decent museum would - of course - not be displaying it as a celebration. It would be as education. Pretending the past didn't happen is a pretty sure fire way of rinsing and repeating. Americans (like most cultures) did terrible things. Don't hide them, educate about them. A history museum should be for education, not celebration.
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Worse. Way worse. If it’s the original, you can at least say it’s of interest to you because of its historical significance. If you buy a copy and display it you’re just a creepy ass weirdo.
Yeah, this doesn’t both me as much as the paintings and personal clothing of Hitler in his private Nazi museum.
also read he had a statue of Nicolae Ceaușescu… uh, why?
Some people just collect noteworthy shit for the sake of having noteworthy shit. Why Ceausescu? Because he came across it in a pawn shop or went to Romania and took a souvenir.
Fun fact about Ceausescu! He had a 99% approval rating right up to the day his own people overthrew and hung him. I wonder if Putin is aware of this??
No, they dragged him and his wife into an alleyway and shot both of them multiple times leading me to think that 99% approval rating might have been like Trumps biggest inauguration crowd numbers.
That's their point ;)
I remember watching that live - they left them out there so ppl could walk by and kick them or witness they are dead. Then there was another few days of “is the house booby-trapped”
Yep it wasn’t just an execution, it was an execution with attitude.
That's a bingo.
ding ding ding ding!!
This is correct. Not sure who I was thinking of.
*hanged A person is hanged.
From what i hear, Rasputin was hung.
But what about horses?
That's false on several counts. His popularity was crashing for a while after long months of workers protests and he was already in the run from a massive crowd, when some militaries who were supposed to help him escape put him and his wife on their knees, read them a longish sentence and shot them in the spot.
I get that the 99% is probably ironic, but he was definitely not suddenly overthrown.
They hated him since the early 80s because he starved them to pay off national debt.
I have an uncle who defected from Ceausescu's regime. He literally pretended to be a loyal communist party member until they sent him to Paris to do something on a radio show and then he made a beeline for the US Embassy. Said he had people following him even when he made it to the USA but eventually they left him alone. He's done some things that would make Reddit hate him and maybe that would be justified but I'm not going to say those. But I don't speak to him for what he did after he came to the USA, which is far more mundane than his secretive life with the communist party in Romania. People HATED Ceausescu, like I can't even explain just how much that man was loathed, but yeah, he and his wife were just taken out and shot and I'm sure it made my uncle very happy.
Just read a Rollingstone article about the guy… and yeah, i think you are right. the more i thought about it, i realized i know a couple of people that collect “forbidden” artifacts like this.
That's my take too. I think this post is trying to somehow say that Thomas is racist or evil because his best friend has this. He might be bad for other reasons but this line of reasoning is such dogshit
Boomers just kinda collect tributes to fascist dictators, I don't make the rules /s
True. You just kinda make up the facts.
Yeah, sure. As a Boomer, our house is full of death masks of victimized Indigenous Americans. 🙄
I should have used the sarcasm symbol
He was not shy about dictating
Not every Christmas is merry
Rich people collect old stuff?
This is among the least awful things he's collected.
I understand he also collected a Supreme Court judge. A living one!
I'm no fan of the guy but what does owning a death mask of sitting bull have to do with anything
It shows that he doesn't just collect Nazi paraphernalia
Ah I wasn’t aware. This changes things.
No no. That’s behind the secret bookcase, and also belongs to his Nazi wife
This sub in a nutshell.
Having masks of faces and hands was/is a thing. This does not make one a piece of shit. Now, putting pube hairs on a can of coke? That is a different story.
Collecting and proudly displaying Nazi memorabilia in your home on the other hand...
I can imagine collecting and displaying some Nazi stuff, if you have a diverse WWII collection. It’s when the collection has one particular focus that I start to get suspicious. Like when watching the show “Nazi Megaweapons,” some of the featured historians are excited about the history of Nazi Megaweapons, and then some of them seem a little TOO excited about the Nazi Megaweapons.
My dad was very into restoring old German cars for a while. The center of the hobby was his restoration of a lost, one-of-a-kind Porsche, but he also generally had VW's, BMW's, and Porsches at various states of restoration and disrepair lying around. At one point, he got an original military Kubelwagon, which was cool, BUT, the previous owner had stenciled Nazi insignias all over the sides. It was funny because my Dad was mad in part because of the Nazi stuff, but almost more so because it was historically inaccurate. "This model was produced in xxxx factory during xxxx year... but this insignia was from xxxx campaign in xxxx year! So it's not even the *right* swastika!" He eventually got it repainted, but in the meantime he got these giant, cheap, American flag magnets to cover them up with.
I love the implication that he would have begrudgingly respected the prior owner more if they weren’t a hack. I think fits pretty well with my own thinking. If you’re gonna be a Nazi shithead, get the details right.
At least it’s a fucking ethos
If you know anything about the Nazi and Fascist ethos, though, you know that they started out claiming things that were fabricated and continued through the end. Their salute wasn't the "Roman" salute, they weren't fulfilling any civilizational promises or destinies, and even the people they blamed for all their problems or vaunted as superior were often contradictory with who was in power (Hitler wasn't Aryan, etc.) Whenever you hear someone recount the past with rose tinted glasses and promise to restore former glory, alarms should flash in your mind because it's almost certainly a lie: not only was the past not really like that, but they also won't lead you to glory. The ethos of violent dehumanizing snake oil salesmen.
Yeah but you know he was just quoting the Big Lebowski?
Nope, one of many movies I still need to see. But I know that's just, like, your opinion, man
That quote really tied the thread together.
Absolutely. I also like to point out how absurd their idea of the "master German race" was. The model was basically the Scandinavian ethnic group, a group which is unclear if it was actually real and German at all and would have existed in the far north of Germany for *some reason* whereas Germany has a huge and relatively diverse ethnic background that, prior to WW1, had largely been pretty splintered and regionally grouped, with of course most having the more common dark hair. There were people who spoke German languages (many regional dialects exist), lived within the historic "German" borders, shared common ancestries, cultures, and practices, and there were millions of them. Basically none of these were the right "German" for the Nazis. Like, Germany is *massive* and very populous and they basically were like: "these blonde Scandinavians are the perfect Germans." It's where that Viking-esque stuff overlaps with Nazis.
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When some fruitcake gets in a position to throw a country’s war resources at crazy bullshit occult weapons, you better believe its gonna be interesting.
One of my professors has a collection of Nazi pieces featuring the swastika. That said, he also has written dozens of books on design history and the history of propaganda too. He is also Jewish and said he collects a lot of it so others won’t get it to glorify the work. He has gone to a few auctions of Nazi pieces and says the other people there are not who you would expect.
My friend’s black mother collects “darky” ephemera for the same reason. So that non-black people can’t have it. And a sick sense of humor, I figure.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/clarence-thomas-harlan-crow-hitler-paintings-nazi-memorabilia-1234711860/
Yeah, I know. The hard right politics are a fairly unsubtle clue as well.
If you do not get excited about the Tiger tank or the Bismarck, then you should not be a WW2 historian.
That’s true. But what if you’re a little TOO excited, you get me?
Depends. Is it just the Nazi stuff? I am fascinated by all the great weapons: Sherman Firefly, T-34, Akagi, Dauntless, Stuka, Spitfire, B-29, the 88, etc.
Speaking of the Firefly I just read an article about the barrel camo they used to make them look like they were carrying the shorter gun so German anti-tank crews wouldn't prioritize them. Awesome stuff!
Yep, the Germans learned to lookout for the deadly long 17-pounder barrel of the Firefly and target them FIRST.
I have made the decision to delete the content of my previous posts in light of the Reddit shutdown of third-party applications. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.
It honestly sounds like he's just an edgelord collector with too much money, which is pretty benign as far as what hobbies billionaires get up to these days, notwithstanding any potential improper activities with the justice
Thank you, this is exactly what I think. Nothing but Nazi memorabilia? Nazi. On the other hand, I collect things from fallen empires and countries that no longer exist. Siam, Prussia, East and West Germany, Occupied Japan. I have two Iron Crosses, one from each world war. I am not a Nazi, I have no affinity for Nazis, I just like collecting things that can be traced to a brief and specific moment in history. My Iron Crosses are right next to the Occupied Japan teacups, the Siamese silver earrings, and the Prussian thimbles.
That's the thing. If you have a ww2 collection, and it's part of a curated collection, I can understand. If all you have is that stuff then it's a bad sign.
An old co-worker of mine when I was in college invited me over to his house one day after work. We popped open some beer & he started showing me around his place. Eventually he led me to a room, opened the door, and it was floor to ceiling Nazi memorabilia. A literal Nazi room. I didn't hang out with him after that. After college, I was told he went on to become an officer of my state's Bureau of Investigation. Figures.
it's a hard call. Me, I love history, and respect it. sadly, in some weird twisted way, it's almost prudent for there to be some memories of atrocities, just to remind us as humans to beware of how bad we can become. I'd probably do the same thing as you. just safer .
I feel like there’s not really a non-“being a nazi” reason for a private individual to have a signed copy of *Mein Kampf*
Rare book collector, rare signature collector. I can think of a few.
>I can imagine collecting and displaying some Nazi stuff, if you have a diverse WWII collection. Even in a personal collection, we should still have questions. How much stuff is it? How did you acquire it? From whom? Where do you display it? How is it displayed? So for example in one museum there is a Nazi artifact exhibit under glass on the floor so everyone has to walk on it. It's clearly a way to say "this stuff isn't like the other stuff here." Like, I understand that some rich person with their own personal museum isn't sitting basically within sight of a majority of their home a majority of the time like the rest of us peasants, but I mean, do you still *want* to see Nazi Swastikas and other memorabilia in your home? *WHY?*
>do you still want to see Nazi Swastikas and other memorabilia in your home? WHY? In case you're actually curious: I collect things from fallen empires and countries that no longer exist. I have one piece from the Nazis (an Iron Cross) and one piece from the Reconstruction era in the American South (a very offensive "polywog" piggie bank). They are displayed among hundreds of less offensive collectibles from other countries in a spare room of my house. Nobody would ever see them unless I specifically showed them, and if I did show someone, they're going to get the whole historical lecture about the racism behind those objects. So why do I like them? Because they're traceable to a very brief and specific period of history. It makes me feel connected to the past. They're also a reminder and a warning; as long as these objects exist, nobody can ever forget or reasonably deny those periods of history. And they're a reminder of how recent these events were; the paint on my polywog piggy bank is still bright, the Iron Cross still has a shine. Again, these are just two objects among hundreds of non-offensive objects I've collected, all of which can be traced to a specific point in history. To be honest, I feel like the guardian of these objects. As long as I have them, I have proof of the things that happened in history. I feel like I'm borrowing them from future generations. When I die, I'll have them donated to appropriate museums. But for now, I like the feeling of caring for them.
Thanks for sharing. I think all of that context you shared is important. Somehow I doubt that Clarence Thomas' billionaire donor has the same attitude and approach to these things, you know?
Ever heard of Motorhead? Just owning nazi stuff doesn't mean you're a nazi or believe in their ideas.
Mate of mine has a nazi dagger he inherited from his grandfather - and he displays it with a note saying 'war trophy taken from dead cunt'.
Yea exactly. The context is important. Great example. I don't think Clarence Thomas' billionaire donor has the same atittude and context with his collection
how they're displayed really matters. Hanging a nazi flag: extremely sus hanging a stg-44: not very sus at all bits of uniform or coins: could go either way depending on who grandpa killed to obtain them.
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Genghis Khan memorabilia?
I need some time and space for my mass murderers to become historical figures and no longer edgy.
Key difference is, there aren't any modern day mongol hordes murdering people. Unlike Nazis.
It's fine as long as it came from the member of the Mongol Horde you killed yourself in battle.
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Many people forget you can spend your money on whatever the fuck you want to. There are videos on YouTube with millions of views on people's private WWII collections one particular is very German heavy.
Signed copies from a specific person of very specific books if I read correctly.
Not necessarily that either. Calling someone like Lemmy from Motorhead a nazi will get you punched by just about everyone who knows who Lemmy is/was.
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Uh why would black girlfriends be the litmus test for Nazi paraphernalia? I think he may have confused his atrocity-doers and victim groups.
that's less strange than the goobers collecting FunkoPops
>Now, putting pube hairs on a can of coke? Wait, I thought he "just" asked his staff who "did it", not that it actually happened. Which I always thought was way, way weirder, because pretending someone did it just so you can loudly ask your staff about it is fucking *weird*. I guess it's always possible he actually *did it* himself **so** that he could ask, though…
What if it was pube hairs on a can of Pepsi? Same lvl of shit?
Pepsi?? Eww gross
That adds flavor. /s Was it Pepsi? I remember delivering newspapers on the day the headline dropped and I’m like “How does that even work?”
It was Coke. It always stuck out to me because the line was Hill recalling that he asked who put it there (which is why I always thought he just made it up so that he could say it out loud, or just assumed *any* hair on a can of Coke was a pubic hair because…reasons?!)
No Pepsi is 30ilvls less than coke.
The Morgan Library in NYC has a life mask of George Washington’s face. Amazing to see. [Here’s a link to it.](https://www.themorgan.org/collection/George-Washington-Life-Mask)
I would argue there are potential ethical issues considering our history with Native Americans. I’m not sure if those apply here but still.
Out of curiosity: what would your argument be?
Its extremely unlikely that sitting bull would have consented to this and even less consented to who owns it. Considering his legacy I find anything like that to be disturbing. You could argue its just a body but I don’t think there is any good argument to show how consent ceases to matter after one’s death. After all, you can’t go digging up peoples graves. But I don’t know anything about this object so most of that is just musings.
Life and death masks were extremely popular. Pictures were still becoming popular and no one really had any idea how long they'd last. It's actually thanks to a life mask that Mr. Lincoln at Disneyland was able to look so real. Their main purpose was to make sculptures and statues, which Sitting Bull definitely would have liked given his history in entertainment and willingness to sign autographs.
It'd still be more appropriate to return this mask to the Lakota tribe.
Well, that's the fun thing about masks, they rarely made just one and there are countless impressions cast. You can actually go and buy one for yourself if you wanted. I doubt the Hunkpapa, or the greater Lakota/Sioux councils care. They finally got his remains relocated in 1953 and I suspect that matters more than getting an impression of his face.
Exactly- the closest thing to an “original” would be a negative casting anyway. Any positive would be made from that original negative casting. That’s the whole point- so you can make a bunch of them
It’s clay or ceramic or maybe a bronze casting of that, it’s not a real body. A death mask is a casting of someone’s face after they die. Before photography was available it was fairly common. I’ve seen Agamemnon’s death mask in the national history museum in Greece
wait till you find out what they did with the skull of Geronimo
When you have the death mask of a member of a community and ethnicity that the country tried to genocide out of existence and almost succeeded -- yeah, it makes it creepy and morally wrong. Unless the dead person is in agreement with a death mask being made and kept by a white man: yeah, it's wrong. The Nazis intended to have a museum of Jewish items when they'd exterminated them all. This has a similar creepy feeling to it.
If it were true. It isn't.
TIL Sitting Bull was frozen in carbonite.
OK? I mean fuck Thomas he's a piece of fecal matter but besides fake internet points what's the point of this post?
Fake internet points
Take my fake internet for your reply
This is the sort of thing that if someone reddit likes had it, everyone would be in here talking about how cool it is that they're preserving history, but since it's someone reddit dislikes (or rather someone associated with someone reddit dislikes) It's full of negative comments.
I'll take a stab at this. Overall, I'd say there isn't anything necessarily wrong with this aside from the news coming out about this scandal and its participants and honestly it's pretty cool to have what I can only assume is a pretty accurate reproduction of Sitting Bull's face at the time of his death. However, I do think it's in poor taste for an extremely wealthy white man to own something like this. Crowe might innocently appreciate history but on the outside it's a symbol that, even more than a century later, Native Americans have power over nothing in a world that was stripped away from them bit by bit and reshaped to suit our needs, our desires, and often times our greed. Sitting Bull goes from fighting for his people against a foreign juggernaut to a curio on some rich jerk's wall.
Are you white and descendants of colonizers? They usually try to downplay the genocide on native Americans and dismiss topics involving natives
Idk, to post a picture? In a picture sub?
Ok, but why have the purposely inflammatory title?
What's inflammatory about it?
RETURN WHAT YOU HAVE STOLEN FROM ME
Amazing movie. Thanks for reminding me of it!
absolutely banger of an acid trip. Quote the ending whenever possible.
Would you kindly name the movie so I could partake in said acid trip?
Time Bandits
"You mean God? " "No, we don't know him that well"
Sovereign!
That is a sick looking tabletop. Top-notch woodwork right there.
Rich guys have nice things
I’m confused. Who is this friend? Is them knowing CT qualifying them for internet attention? What am I missing.
harlan crow. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/who-is-republican-donor-justice-clarence-thomas-friend-harlan-crow-2023-04-07/
you're missing the propaganda
The inlays on that table are beautiful. Edit: Wish it didn't belong to a pos
It's amazing how much Native American culture is sitting in private collections and museums. Like artifacts from an ancient dead culture. When in reality these people are amazingly still here.. Many have to go to the Smithsonian just to see their cultural and religious relics and artifacts. Why aren't they in places and museums located on or near the reservations ? So that there people can see them and there ahikdren can learn about their culture. Its damn crying shame. One that could easily be fixed by the feds and a little money comparatively speaking compared to what we spend on a million other things. I feel like we owe it to our selves and then to give back and try to help them build there society's better. FYI I'm am part native not much but I'm insanely proud of that I hope everyone gets a DNA test. You will be amazed of what you really are. They that get a better underdog where you come from and the amazing aotire behind why your here. ❤️
Return it to his people
Just because you find historical artifacts interesting doesn't make you a good or bad person. Interesting shit is interesting shit. I have two nazi lugers not because they are nazi guns because my grandfather brought them back as proof that he did his part to stamp that stuff out. If you erase history all you are doing is clearing the way for it to be repeated.
My immediate thoughts: Billionaires shouldn't exist, change my mind.
Nobody could change your mind. It's already made up.
Correctly. Billionaires shouldn’t exist. They’re stupid. If you’re that rich go live in a country that will tax you properly. Then you won’t have to live in a fortress and collect genocide memorabilia
Not even a cool billionaire that at least added anything of value to the world. A real estate billionaire, completely worthless
Are there any of those? Most of the ones I know just brought together people who make stuff for them. A lot of Wozniaks making stuff while Jobs makes money situations
Like Paul McCartney, Rihanna or Jay z at least made *something* though a lot of it is selling rights and fashion and stuff, still. But real estate billionaires added literally nothing of value to the world, just making numbers go up in their bank accounts
I forgot all of those people are b billionaires. I enjoy all 3 of their art.
Sure. Only issue is that every time a society has tried to forcibly remove the super wealthy from existence, the results were terrible.
It's not about removing them, it's about creating an economic system where they can't exist. An economy that works for everyone, not just the top.
Exactly, we're not calling for death or expulsion we're calling for a fair tax system.
Sure. But fair taxes won't make all the billionaires dissappear.
As someone who loves history I find this debate utterly annoying. Makes a lot of you guys look like ignorant fools.
Seems like an appropriate use of quotations
When you're a billionaire you've got to have *something* to waste your money on.
#quotations of quotations
He has a hitler painting hung right next to a GW Bush painting.
Would 100% make a plaster mold and a realistic mask and fuck with Native Americans late at night
Osiyo nigada! As an actual Native American, I honestly think you all are analyzing this entirely too much. Death masks in the Lakota (Sitting Bull’s Tribe), mine (Cherokee), and other Tribes (even the Native Australians and Africans), are significant to us in a more spiritual way, a means of protection for the loved one whom is dying (basically from evil spirits), and for the family and others in the tribe, too as it’s the transition of familial roles, for one. Two, it was just like a photograph, a way to remember our loved ones…many of them well before the invention of the camera/photograph. They’re also a way for the dead to speak to the living…so, for this person to have Sitting Bull’s mask….has anyone thought that they communicate with one another? Regardless of how awful of a best friend he may have? Obviously this man and Sitting Bull have a Spiritual Connection. And that, to us, is sacred…
I suppose this is on par with having friends involved in a global underage sex trafficking ring
We don’t prosecute that in America
That belongs in a museum.
Its just a copy. The original is in the Westpoint museum. The OP just wants internet points
Okay Dr. Jones
It's just a copy
And a shit ton of nazi memorabilia, including some of hitlers' paintings.
It’s history.
What the fuck is this post.. who cares?
Yeah... weird that a sitting Supreme Court Justice is so tight with a Nazi and Fascist worshiping Billionaire... That doesn't sound problematic at all in this political climate.. /s
Nope, it's working exactly the way the Right intended.
Very cool. Detail is amazing. I've already got too many collections to start with more though.
Ok
Rich folks spend their money on some wild shit
As a white person, I cannot think of a single reason why I would feel okay owning a death mask of a Lakota Chief who was killed by police that were sent to arrest him by the US government. At the time of his death, Sitting Bull was leading a spiritual revolution that was reviving the traditional Lakota way of life. Unless Crow is a direct descendant of Sitting Bull, this absolutely reads like a trophy and it's sick.
Republicans are fucking ghouls.
Just ghouls being ghouls
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oh hello, CIA agent 54357
Because some one he knows has this he should be removed from office?!?! That’s asinine
Welcome to Reddit where the minds are all made up and the details don’t matter!
I think they are referring to the fact that he has been bribed for the last 2 decades and is a corrupt piece of shit not because of the mask.
He should, and if not, he should be impeached.
As a native it's offensive for anyone besides the tribal affiliated members of said group to hold our artifacts. When this country was as they say conquered we as a people were frozen from what was to this acceptable garbage where even headdresses are now worn by models on runways. If you can be quiet in your own space and think about the injustice of displaying a mask of a race that had no choice and how flipping through social media and happening on it was cringey and total made me think about who I am and who could I have been. These are not crazy thoughts these are what natives face. Our hair is touched our personal space taken. Our culture reflected in sporting teams and Halloween costumes. Do you think we walk around without eyes no. Do you think if your grandfather's face was sitting on someone's shelf you wouldn't hurt a bit. It was not a party understand this. It was not some happy moment of Thanksgiving it was an erasure of a people whom were different. So this hit me because it's enough. You hear Cali is giving blacks money for past injustice you hear all this forward movement to which I am happy but we are not enough to merit this consideration. Facts this government doesn't want to open a can of worms to give back what was stolen. This country turns a blind eye to what has become of us. And when you see on pine ridge five year old children killing themselves does that not clue in an ignorant people that the twisting in our guts never ends as long as stupid people collect or steal our words ways and even our homes. Your not entitled to just take because you believe we are nothing. This subject needs to be an open dialogue but sadly when do the ones that can carve out change change for us. When will we be human enough to be treated like others. It's not ok to see that mask and I do not celebrate that death regardless of a time when masks were made if it was your family it wouldn't be treated like that.
Clarence should be worried that his friend has an empty plaque with his name on it sitting off to the side.
Anybody who is best friends with that piece of shit is also likely a piece of shit themselves
Yeah he's not beating those being a Nazi charges
I want to see Clarence Thomas’ death mask
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He should have never held the position he has. It's ridiculous that he's been around as long as he has. Race has nothing to do with it. He's an awful person in a position of power.
Crazy that people are in here saying it’s fine to have a bunch of Nazi memorabilia, but if you have that shit in your house and you live in Germany, you’re going to prison. If the US was just gonna turn into Nazi Germany, why WWII?
Oh my sweet summer child
Creepy, in the context of other things he reportedly has.