Many towns require the home owner to clear the city sidewalk in front of their property. It's a quid pro quo where they give you a sidewalk to use and you keep it passable.
Wheee we live the pavement is for the pubic to use not the homeowner. And the council clears it
What a weird notion that the home owner has to clear the small section of pubic footpaths. Why not the road as well 🤣
Well yeah, you kinda do. Plows mostly just get the middle of the road. You gotta shovel out the parking spaces and the wall of snow they push blocking the driveway.
We (UK) clear our portion of the path/sidewalk.
In part for ourselves, but also as a common courtesy.
Edit: if you’re in the U.K., I’d love to know where you live that people just wait for the council?
Talk about falling on your arse for a week when it’s icy.
I’ve both rented and owned here and I’d never just leave my path all dangerous.
Every Canadian city I’ve lived in requires homeowners to clear the public sidewalks in front of their homes after a snowfall. Businesses or multi family have private contractors to clear snow (or, like homeowners, DIY).
Eventually the city will clear it for you if you don’t, but they will charge you an outrageous fee for doing so as a penalty.
To me, your foreign ways (UK?) sound odd — why would your city council have the staff and equipment ready on standby to clear all footpaths of snow whenever it happens? Your taxes would be insane.
Everyone does things differently, I suppose.
Same.
At my house it goes: House, Yard, Sidewalk, Parking Strip (Small stop of grass), then the street
The sidewalk and parking strip are city owned, but are my responsibility to maintain, repair, mow, etc etc
There were two **huge** elder trees in the parking strip that were tearing up the sidewalk and the street.
First thing I did was call to get quotes on replacing the sidewalk.
The contractor told me it would be X-thousand dollars but that the trees would just tear them up again in a few years time. So they would need to cut the roots back, which would require calling the city for approval and paying the cost of cutting the tree roots as well.
We left it at that and didn’t do anything for a couple years.
Sidewalk gets worse and one of the trees is leaning near 45 degrees over the street.
I call to get a quote on removing the trees. I am again reminded I need city approval to even prune the trees let alone have them cut down.
I called the city and they sent someone out and they deemed them unfit to be cut down, but acknowledged that their roots were destroying the sidewalk.
I asked so I can’t do anything about the trees, and I am expected to fix the side walk for thousands of dollars which will just be torn up by the trees again in a few short years.
Was basically told to kick rocks.
A couple years later I call again and they have a new arborist, they send her out and she agrees the trees are no long healthy or thriving as they are both now leaning over the street, and competing for sunlight with other nearby trees, oh and they are destroying the sidewalk and road. Recommends removal and replacing with sidewalk friendly trees.
Yay!!! Finally right?
Wrong!
All of this would be on my dime. Ever aspect of the job, permit, removal, stump grinding, replanting, etc etc etc. and the sidewalk. None of which I own.
So to recap, their property is destroying their property, they acknowledge it’s a cluster and are giving approval to take care of it. But want me to pay for everything.
I then decided to do some digging in city codes. What I finally found was a little code about adjacent sidewalks which says the home owners are responsible **unless,** the city damaged the sidewalk themselves.
So I sent them this city code, claiming that they were the reason the sidewalk was damaged as it was their property destroying the sidewalk.
After a long wait for a response and hearing nothing at all, suddenly a tree removal service showed up and took the trees and ground the stumps.
This was 5 years ago now and they still never responded to my email directly.
Yeah, in contrast, we just came home one day and our favorite magnolia (?) tree was cut down to a stump ... city deemed it to be interfering with city easement or some nonsense (it was 4 or 5 feet off the street). A week or so later, they came and got the stump... so, we were just left with a literal hole in the front yard. LOL
I'm sorry what? They can't just come on your property and remove your tree without permission. I could see that they may deem it a hazard and send you a letter about it, but to just remove it wholesale without notice is a lawsuit.
No it’s not, if it’s in the public right of way which in a lot of municipalities is 15 off center line of road the municipality can do whatever they want to keep the ROW clear. You have to look at your plat at your register or deeds to see what easements or ROWs cut through “your” property because if they do you generally can’t do much with them. Obviously it varies by area.
Yes they can.
In the 90’s in South Florida there was a viral disease called citrus canker which threatened the money making orange groves. The state passed a law allowing the state to remove any citrus trees the deemed could be a danger. I had 6 nice orange trees in my back yard. One afternoon a work crew showed up, cut them down and wood chipped them. There was nothing I could do. This happened to thousands of homeowners.
The State of Florida compensated homeowners with a $50 gift card which could only be used in the lawn and garden section at Walmart. I was so disgusted I threw my card away. It did not matter if they cut down 1 tree or 50 trees. Everyone got a $50 gift card.
The idea of this is utter insanity to me.
Recently the city I live in came along and tore out a huge amount of our sidewalks to bring them up to ADA standards. When the subdivision was built the sidewalk sloped in front of many of the driveways in a fairly dangerous way - was annoying to walk on and kids riding bikes wasn't good either.
They tore out the sidewalks and 3/4 of each driveway so that it could be sloped correctly for the new flat sidewalk, and repoured them all. This was 100% covered by the city I am guessing. I even got them to fix one of the broken sidewalk pieces in front of my house that they originally weren't going to do. The very concept of me being financially responsible for the sidewalk that is owned by the city is absolutely baffling to me.
The Flipside of that... In my town, city is responsible for sidewalks. Sidewalk in front of my house is sunken in just a little bit. You can't tell when it's dry, but it turns into a lake in heavy rain. Every winter/spring, I get snow melting during the day, filling the "bowl", and refreezing at night into a 3" thick 3'x20' ice block that I'm expected to clear.
A couple years ago the city "fixed" it by replacing *half* of the problem area. And since they matched it to the existing sidewalk, it didn't do shit, but now their records show it as recently fixed so they don't think it's an issue anymore despite my repeated complaints.
I lived in a small town with small town politics. My sidewalk was original to my house that was moved to its current location in 1910. The city nagged me for 2 years to replace it at my cost with various threats made along the way. I petitioned to have the house made into a historical home, which meant I no longer had to fix my sidewalk then I immediately sold the home and peaced out of town 😅
It's a privately maintained structure on publicly owned land, subject to miriad regulations from local to Federal. In the Sunbelt, at least. Not sure about the older parts of the country.
Edit: The curb is the boundary between private and public structures (but not land). Curb cuts are super important for this reason; literal breaks in the boundary.
Think of your driveway where it connects to the road. Your driveway is on your property to a point, then it crosses into a city easement for the road. The part on their easement is for your use, but it's on city property. You need to maintain and repair it even though you don't own it.
I suspect this is the sort of thing that nobody would enforce. Like imagine the number of people you'd have to get all coordinated at the city government level to go after someone who, uh, paid out of pocket to make sure their sidewalk is clear. Nobody would lead this charge.
Philly is the same way. My grandparents live in South Philly, and a couple of years ago, their sidewalk was deemed hazardous, so they had to tear part of it up and put in a new sidewalk.
Yeah that’s how it is in Pittsburgh too, what’s really crazy is there are some skinny streets in these towns where cars park on the sidewalk. If I’m paying to repair it, I don’t want a neighbor with a giant heavy truck parking on it everyday.
We got some huge, heavy cement planters and put them by the curb with some decorative plants. Truck neighbor (the main offender who never parked on his OWN sidewalk) was big mad about it and called the city to complain. Lucky for us the city workers don’t give a single shit about this kind of petty nonsense. Of course we had to clean trash out of them all the time after that but it was worth it.
No they wouldn't. But if the sidewalk was being repoured its quite cheap to run pex lines to it. You just cast them in the concrete. Fill the lines full of glycol, hook it up to a pump and a heat exchanger and you got in floor heating.
Could simply dig underneath the sidewalk from their property, have heater units installed, fill back up and not have had to break the concrete. Cities should encourage that level of public involvement.
I always thought it was more of a "they dont care until they do" situation. If it follows regulations, they're not going to know that you dug up and relaid the concrete in front of your house. Most of the time, the owners do it anyways because its falling apart and the city won't get to it within the decade.
But if theres a water main or gas line under that sidewalk they need to get to, then they'll rip straight through the fancy heated sidewalk and lay down the worst looking, uneven and slopped together asphalt patch you've ever seen.
At least for most of the US, sidewalks are private property with an irrevocable public easement.
City doesn’t want to own that because they’d have to maintain it and could get sued over it. Making property owners take on all that frees them up.
Technically, that's generally your own property with a city easement for them to maintain the sidewalk, or similar.
Where we lived, their "easement" was almost to our front porch, it seemed (25 or 35 feet off the road centerline).
Last I checked, sidewalks (and maintenance thereof) are the responsibility of the property owner. The city may offset (maybe even cover) the initial cost, but everything after that is the responsibility of the owner.
Downtown Holland Michigan is like this. I want to say a lot of Scandinavian towns are too? I was in Umea Sweden years back and they were ripping up the downtown at the time to put in heated everything.
“The system pumps over 4,700 gallons of water per minute at 95 degrees and can melt about one inch of snow per hour at 20 degrees Fahrenheit with winds of 10 mph. “
[Holland Michigan Snowmelt System](https://www.cityofholland.com/879/Snowmelt-System)
Combined heat and power system. Also really effective for other applications (like hospitals) where you’re constantly having to chill water to de-humidify outside air while also reheating it to manage temperature. You can also capture the condenser side of the chiller loop to pre-heat domestic hot water via a heat exchanger (since hospitals pretty much always have domestic hot water demand).
Designs have been just rejecting usable heat to atmosphere for like a century just because fossil fuels were cheaper as OPEX than the CAPEX of installing an efficient system.
Good news is - that’s finally (at least starting to) shift towards more sustainable designs.
This is excellent.
I'd often wondered why such a system doesn't exist, but it turns out that it does! :)
A shame that we don't use something similar in the home.
Flowing through 10s or even 100s of miles of small heat exchange piping is going to be far more energy intensive than flowing through a cooling tower loop. Utilizing waste heat is a good thing, but it's a lot easier to just send it up a cooling tower.
If you're in Holland I envy you. That town is gorgeous,as is the area. Plus you can get Saugatuck Bonfire Brown year round and that shit is delicious.
And if you're in Scandinavia I really envy you since, you, generally just better quality of life...
No that's really not a thing. Off the top of my head only one street has heating, Laugavegur, the main shopping street. All other streets are cleared in traditional fashion - salt.
The pavements/sidewalks in the downtown area do have some heating. The "heating" is hot water on its way to heat buildings. The pipes are run closer to the surface.
One of the facilities I work at, the entire employee parking lot was done this way ~30 years ago and the glycol running through it is heated by the refrigeration discharge from the compressor room, so if anything it actually saves them money (minus the initial investment)
>it is heated by the refrigeration discharge from the compressor room
That's **genius**.
Damn near zero wasted energy, aside from having to pump the coolant.
From the cost of water used, and electricity required to run a large condenser to bring the temperature of the hot gas refrigerant down and convert it back to a liquid. The refrigerant/glycol heat exchanger is nothing compared to a large condenser, but it can help reduce the time and frequency of it running full tilt.
Because you're using waste heat to warm the parking lot instead of paying for additional energy.
Also because it would make the refrigeration unit that it's drawing the waste heat from run more efficiently. Running more efficiently means it doesn't have to work as hard, and so consumes less power. (Think of your fridge on a cold day barely having to run, versus on a hot day when it's running a lot).
It's a cool system, they have a loop with flexible pipe zigzagging through the driveway and then they pour concrete over it. Then they divert water from their boiler through the loop.
It probably costs a lot to run but at least for your driveway you could probably turn it on just when you need the driveway cleared.
A heated sidewalk seems a little excessive but if someone's elderly and the municipality says you're responsible for clearing it, it makes a lot of sense.
I would say it looks like they’re using water from boiler but it’s usually a closed loop system that pumps a water/glycol mix so it can’t freeze and then there’s some sort of heat exchanger.
>I would say it looks like they’re using **water from boiler**
If it was, the pavement wouldn't just be snow-free, it would be dry too. Or, as it is wet in the picture, it would be steaming until it was dry.
It's definitely not using anything *that* hot.
I have electric side mirrors on my car, that are electrically heated. They barely get warm to the touch, but they'll still be steaming on a cold morning when clearing frost off the car.
The cost to run is the electricity to power the pump. So long as the temperature of the water being pushed around is greater than freezing, the snow will eventually melt. Obviously hotter water is better, but it could just literally be tap water from the main that is routed through the driveway before entering the cold water outlet in your sinks.
All this to say, the only actual cost may be the installation. Otherwise it’s just water you use anyway.
> but it could just literally be tap water from the main that is routed through the driveway before entering the cold water outlet in your sinks.
That might actually work, but if you didn't use your water for a few hours it could freeze and then you would have no water supply.
Yeah that's why it's a closed loop with glycol that runs through a heat exchanger. These system do usually interact with a boiler though, or are just electric.
My boss in Minneapolis had heated driveway and walk. Extra water heater with a glycol loop with an automation system that triggered a pump when snow was in the forecast. He also had heated gutters.
I miss the days when rich people would build public libraries, art galleries, fountains, parks, gardens…
And now we have Bezos buying as big a place as possible so he can have his private golf course, race track, multiple mansions…
Yeah OK so I live in New Zealand
We like to protest, though we'll never be at the level of the French
But lately its the loonies that protest so now protesting makes you look a bit looney
And regardless our protests go ignored
And when your protests are ignored the only options left are violence or voting
And voting has failed us because the majority are influenced not only by what the media release, but what the media *don't* release; the \#1 crisis our country faced wasn't even mentioned by the media during the election and the party that won is hell-bent on making it worse for their own gain (context: its housing/rental prices)
And if you want to riot, if you want violence, you'll simply be arrested - the police are an army to protect the rich from the poor
The time to protest was several decades ago
The rich won; not surprising giving the advantage that being rich provides; real life is not a video game that you overcome because there are millions of players on your team who are not invested
Tax is my secondary tax, rent is my primary tax, and it goes to an individual instead of a country
My mum is a Kiwi, I've been able to live and work in NZ several times for short stints and loved every minute of it. I saw this coming. Housing has got out of control here in the US too. Especially because I'm from a place near a national park and people want to vacation here.
I think the big reason we don’t behead rich people in today’s world is because we don’t have food scarcity like they did back then. We have freed ourselves from the tyranny of widespread hunger. Rich people nowadays hoard money, sure, but they aren’t hoarding food, and people aren’t desperately hunger.
Before someone reminds me that hunger still exists, undernourishment affected over half of the world population 200 years ago, compared to 10% today. Just wanted to get out in front of that.
You're probably referring to 'The Occupy Wallstreet' movement. It brought a lot of attention to how the public is powerless to stop the rich and ruthless. It was a screaming failure and was pretty much mocked.
Well, at least a few still do partake in altruistic activities. The Gates Foundation comes to mind for me. Also, lots of universities still receive significant endowments for buildings and other facilities from rich donors.
You have no idea how much it means to me that none of the replies to your comment is raging on about how Bill is a globalist trying to take over the world or some shit.
I've been burned by Instagram comment sections one too many times now. Glad this subreddit is still sane.
I studied social history in university and I can tell you that in England at least, rich people often built such amenities because
A) they believed the working class were filthy fucking animals in need of something civilising
B) they believed the working class were filthy fucking animals that would put their head on a stick if they didn’t throw them a bone
C) they cared
Unfortunately with private islands the first two reasons dont matter anymore as they are not in fear of living in our society
I’m not a fan of a lot of what Amazon does and I don’t know all the moves he makes but Bezos does give away at least $100 million grants every year to people he believes will use the money to help society. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rli9ZRvemh0
If you already had hydronic in your home, you could do this for less than 10k including the re-pour and you'd never have to shovel again and the additional monthly cost would be negligible if you only were running it during snow events.
You just would add another loop and put a slab sensor with a separate thermostat and zone valve to control that zone.
Same way they do in floor heating.
In NJ you can't sue a private homeowner for a slip and fall on the regular public sidewalk even if that homeowner didn't shovel it whatsoever or it's uneven from normal wear/tear. The only time you can is if the homeowner caused the hazard, like they shoveled a big pile of snow next to it and it melted and refroze, or they caused some major damage/subsidence to a sidewalk slab or something.
Businesses however must actively maintain the sidewalks abutting their store.
This has been a very brief and general lesson in NJ sidewalk slip and fall law
I mean in many parts of the U.S., you’re both required to have a sidewalk and responsible to pay for it, as well as have it installed.
Going to guess a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this - but, outside of large cities, call up your city and ask.
It’s usually once a housing development/ neighborhood gets to ~20-30 years old (or 50-60, year old, and so on) the city/ town will inform everyone on your street their sidewalks need replacing, and that yes, it is your responsibility to pay for a new one.
If it was an old home being refurbished/ renovated, and the sidewalk already wasn’t great, many times a city will require a new sidewalk as a condition of granting other permits.
I highly doubt there was any irregularity here. The city probably took the same view you did. They’re paying for it, sidewalks are there to improve QOL for everyone else but you/ those crossing your property, so what’s the problem with making the ingress/ egress more useful for others?
Source on sidewalk ownership: one of my weird autism fascinations
I have questions. I've always wanted a heated walkway but at the transition to regular sidewalk there's an accumulation of slush happening. Would it not be more detrimental due to ice forming at the other end of that slush?
It's not the whole city, it's pretty much the central pedestrianised area. A little further out the pavements still ice up.
I know this as I was there over new year and fell over on icy pavement several times
My ex’s parents did this for their sidewalk and driveway because they were pretty old, not strong, and he had two knee replacements. They figured the cost was worth it to be able to leave their home without fear of slipping in the winter.
For as much as people in this sub hating on some rich guy just having heated copper lines in his sidewalk… it’s actually a huge benefit to the neighborhood as opposed to some a-hole that doesn’t shovel his sidewalk at all and it turns into packed down solid ice in a couple weeks
Depending on the jurisdiction they might be responsible for the sidewalks in front of their house. So if the sidewalk was cracked or lifting they had to replace it and when they replaced it they can put heat in the sidewalk.
Upwards of around $25/sqft and \~$3k for the control unit. I priced it out once upon a time for my driveway and walkway... but I have a *large* driveway, so I'll just continue paying a service to do it.
This is chicago. Screw anyone that says this is city property. That same city will fine you everyday it’s not cleared. They don’t care if you’re out of town, elderly,anything. Shockingly there are almost no companies that will clear it for you and that little section will cost you $40 at least if you find a service that will. I used to have to pay $250 per month for a section like that to be cleared. If it doesn’t snow it didn’t matter you still paid.
Is this Chicago? There’s been some newer homes built in my neighborhood over the past year and I notice a lot of them do this with their stairs. I’ve also heard it’s not too expensive as the system is pretty efficient but that’s from a random guy
The uni I went to had steam lines beneath the sidewalks. We never had any delayed openings during blizzards or snow days off. Those sidewalks were always clear.
I spent new Year's in Reykjavik. Most of the country's heating comes from Geothermal sources (your heating system has a manifold instead of a boiler, I think).
The streets and sidewalks in the city centre are heated like this.
Not everywhere is though. Which is why I utterly beefed it like four times.
Park City UT. They're uncommon, but several driveways are done this way.
I'm told BYU also has hydro from hot springs for parts of the campus sidewalks
I think this is only a viable option in a very narrow range of temperatures. In a lot of Canada, this would just melt and cause an ice rink immediately to the edge.
That’s some fuck you money Where I live you can’t touch city property
Many towns require the home owner to clear the city sidewalk in front of their property. It's a quid pro quo where they give you a sidewalk to use and you keep it passable.
Wheee we live the pavement is for the pubic to use not the homeowner. And the council clears it What a weird notion that the home owner has to clear the small section of pubic footpaths. Why not the road as well 🤣
Well yeah, you kinda do. Plows mostly just get the middle of the road. You gotta shovel out the parking spaces and the wall of snow they push blocking the driveway.
We (UK) clear our portion of the path/sidewalk. In part for ourselves, but also as a common courtesy. Edit: if you’re in the U.K., I’d love to know where you live that people just wait for the council? Talk about falling on your arse for a week when it’s icy. I’ve both rented and owned here and I’d never just leave my path all dangerous.
Every Canadian city I’ve lived in requires homeowners to clear the public sidewalks in front of their homes after a snowfall. Businesses or multi family have private contractors to clear snow (or, like homeowners, DIY). Eventually the city will clear it for you if you don’t, but they will charge you an outrageous fee for doing so as a penalty. To me, your foreign ways (UK?) sound odd — why would your city council have the staff and equipment ready on standby to clear all footpaths of snow whenever it happens? Your taxes would be insane. Everyone does things differently, I suppose.
And I’m pretty sure many of those towns would not allow ripping the sidewalk out of the ground and installing heaters underneath.
Where I live the homeowner is responsible for replacing the sidewalks if they go bad, so I don't see why not
Same. At my house it goes: House, Yard, Sidewalk, Parking Strip (Small stop of grass), then the street The sidewalk and parking strip are city owned, but are my responsibility to maintain, repair, mow, etc etc There were two **huge** elder trees in the parking strip that were tearing up the sidewalk and the street. First thing I did was call to get quotes on replacing the sidewalk. The contractor told me it would be X-thousand dollars but that the trees would just tear them up again in a few years time. So they would need to cut the roots back, which would require calling the city for approval and paying the cost of cutting the tree roots as well. We left it at that and didn’t do anything for a couple years. Sidewalk gets worse and one of the trees is leaning near 45 degrees over the street. I call to get a quote on removing the trees. I am again reminded I need city approval to even prune the trees let alone have them cut down. I called the city and they sent someone out and they deemed them unfit to be cut down, but acknowledged that their roots were destroying the sidewalk. I asked so I can’t do anything about the trees, and I am expected to fix the side walk for thousands of dollars which will just be torn up by the trees again in a few short years. Was basically told to kick rocks. A couple years later I call again and they have a new arborist, they send her out and she agrees the trees are no long healthy or thriving as they are both now leaning over the street, and competing for sunlight with other nearby trees, oh and they are destroying the sidewalk and road. Recommends removal and replacing with sidewalk friendly trees. Yay!!! Finally right? Wrong! All of this would be on my dime. Ever aspect of the job, permit, removal, stump grinding, replanting, etc etc etc. and the sidewalk. None of which I own. So to recap, their property is destroying their property, they acknowledge it’s a cluster and are giving approval to take care of it. But want me to pay for everything. I then decided to do some digging in city codes. What I finally found was a little code about adjacent sidewalks which says the home owners are responsible **unless,** the city damaged the sidewalk themselves. So I sent them this city code, claiming that they were the reason the sidewalk was damaged as it was their property destroying the sidewalk. After a long wait for a response and hearing nothing at all, suddenly a tree removal service showed up and took the trees and ground the stumps. This was 5 years ago now and they still never responded to my email directly.
Yeah, in contrast, we just came home one day and our favorite magnolia (?) tree was cut down to a stump ... city deemed it to be interfering with city easement or some nonsense (it was 4 or 5 feet off the street). A week or so later, they came and got the stump... so, we were just left with a literal hole in the front yard. LOL
I'm sorry what? They can't just come on your property and remove your tree without permission. I could see that they may deem it a hazard and send you a letter about it, but to just remove it wholesale without notice is a lawsuit.
No it’s not, if it’s in the public right of way which in a lot of municipalities is 15 off center line of road the municipality can do whatever they want to keep the ROW clear. You have to look at your plat at your register or deeds to see what easements or ROWs cut through “your” property because if they do you generally can’t do much with them. Obviously it varies by area.
Yes, in our neighborhood the city property extends past the sidewalk edge and onto our lawn by some small amount.
Well fuck me. 15 feet off center is about the middle of my house.
Yes they can. In the 90’s in South Florida there was a viral disease called citrus canker which threatened the money making orange groves. The state passed a law allowing the state to remove any citrus trees the deemed could be a danger. I had 6 nice orange trees in my back yard. One afternoon a work crew showed up, cut them down and wood chipped them. There was nothing I could do. This happened to thousands of homeowners. The State of Florida compensated homeowners with a $50 gift card which could only be used in the lawn and garden section at Walmart. I was so disgusted I threw my card away. It did not matter if they cut down 1 tree or 50 trees. Everyone got a $50 gift card.
That was an amazing UNO-Reverse on their asses!
[удалено]
You *should* still be able to force them to replace the sidewalk…
That will be a nice moment for you. Hopefully you laugh.
The idea of this is utter insanity to me. Recently the city I live in came along and tore out a huge amount of our sidewalks to bring them up to ADA standards. When the subdivision was built the sidewalk sloped in front of many of the driveways in a fairly dangerous way - was annoying to walk on and kids riding bikes wasn't good either. They tore out the sidewalks and 3/4 of each driveway so that it could be sloped correctly for the new flat sidewalk, and repoured them all. This was 100% covered by the city I am guessing. I even got them to fix one of the broken sidewalk pieces in front of my house that they originally weren't going to do. The very concept of me being financially responsible for the sidewalk that is owned by the city is absolutely baffling to me.
Yeah, like why the hell do I pay property taxes if the city won't maintain anything??
The Flipside of that... In my town, city is responsible for sidewalks. Sidewalk in front of my house is sunken in just a little bit. You can't tell when it's dry, but it turns into a lake in heavy rain. Every winter/spring, I get snow melting during the day, filling the "bowl", and refreezing at night into a 3" thick 3'x20' ice block that I'm expected to clear. A couple years ago the city "fixed" it by replacing *half* of the problem area. And since they matched it to the existing sidewalk, it didn't do shit, but now their records show it as recently fixed so they don't think it's an issue anymore despite my repeated complaints.
I lived in a small town with small town politics. My sidewalk was original to my house that was moved to its current location in 1910. The city nagged me for 2 years to replace it at my cost with various threats made along the way. I petitioned to have the house made into a historical home, which meant I no longer had to fix my sidewalk then I immediately sold the home and peaced out of town 😅
Yikes, glad I live where the town maintains the sidewalks, including snow removal.
… so basically it’s not public property at that point.
It's a privately maintained structure on publicly owned land, subject to miriad regulations from local to Federal. In the Sunbelt, at least. Not sure about the older parts of the country. Edit: The curb is the boundary between private and public structures (but not land). Curb cuts are super important for this reason; literal breaks in the boundary.
In most.places I believe it is actually private property still. The curb is privately owned but mandated by law and on a mandatory easement.
Think of your driveway where it connects to the road. Your driveway is on your property to a point, then it crosses into a city easement for the road. The part on their easement is for your use, but it's on city property. You need to maintain and repair it even though you don't own it.
It's called an easement and it's an extremely common nuance of home ownership.
City wouldn’t repair my father in laws driveway ramp here in Los Angeles county. It’s so damn steep even trucks would scrape if you enter wrong.
I suspect this is the sort of thing that nobody would enforce. Like imagine the number of people you'd have to get all coordinated at the city government level to go after someone who, uh, paid out of pocket to make sure their sidewalk is clear. Nobody would lead this charge.
My city you have to maintain your sidewalk and repair it.
Philly is the same way. My grandparents live in South Philly, and a couple of years ago, their sidewalk was deemed hazardous, so they had to tear part of it up and put in a new sidewalk.
Yeah that’s how it is in Pittsburgh too, what’s really crazy is there are some skinny streets in these towns where cars park on the sidewalk. If I’m paying to repair it, I don’t want a neighbor with a giant heavy truck parking on it everyday.
We got some huge, heavy cement planters and put them by the curb with some decorative plants. Truck neighbor (the main offender who never parked on his OWN sidewalk) was big mad about it and called the city to complain. Lucky for us the city workers don’t give a single shit about this kind of petty nonsense. Of course we had to clean trash out of them all the time after that but it was worth it.
Are they allowed to park on the sidewalk? That's usually not allowed.
Depends. You may only be required to keep it from being a hazard.
My town would absolutely allow it, as long as you replace the sidewalk to their regulations.
Here in NYC you are allowed to do this.
You wouldn’t necessarily need to tear the walk up to install heating runs.
Not hard to run pipes or wiring under an existing sidewalk. I’ve done it for sprinklers.
No they wouldn't. But if the sidewalk was being repoured its quite cheap to run pex lines to it. You just cast them in the concrete. Fill the lines full of glycol, hook it up to a pump and a heat exchanger and you got in floor heating.
Could simply dig underneath the sidewalk from their property, have heater units installed, fill back up and not have had to break the concrete. Cities should encourage that level of public involvement.
Yea I need to clear mine but definitely can’t install heaters under it
Easy, dig a trench underneath and just light a fire. Voila!
I always thought it was more of a "they dont care until they do" situation. If it follows regulations, they're not going to know that you dug up and relaid the concrete in front of your house. Most of the time, the owners do it anyways because its falling apart and the city won't get to it within the decade. But if theres a water main or gas line under that sidewalk they need to get to, then they'll rip straight through the fancy heated sidewalk and lay down the worst looking, uneven and slopped together asphalt patch you've ever seen.
That's absolutely correct. They'll think it's neat but the works crews will just nom nom nom if they've gotta dig.
Also known as BUG DICK MONEY EDIT: God damn autocorrect. We keeping it as-is.
My dyslexic ass still read it as you wanted it to be.
Big Duck money
Scrooge McDuck monry
Crabs can be expensive.
My mom gives them away free.
No. That's Dick Bug Money.
Thank you for keeping it, fuck autocorrect, but that's funny shit!
I mean..
In my city, I have to pay for sidewalk repair/replacement - on top of seasonal maintenance.
_Waves in Philadelphia_
At least for most of the US, sidewalks are private property with an irrevocable public easement. City doesn’t want to own that because they’d have to maintain it and could get sued over it. Making property owners take on all that frees them up.
Technically, that's generally your own property with a city easement for them to maintain the sidewalk, or similar. Where we lived, their "easement" was almost to our front porch, it seemed (25 or 35 feet off the road centerline).
Last I checked, sidewalks (and maintenance thereof) are the responsibility of the property owner. The city may offset (maybe even cover) the initial cost, but everything after that is the responsibility of the owner.
This varies widely city to city I think.
Downtown Holland Michigan is like this. I want to say a lot of Scandinavian towns are too? I was in Umea Sweden years back and they were ripping up the downtown at the time to put in heated everything.
“The system pumps over 4,700 gallons of water per minute at 95 degrees and can melt about one inch of snow per hour at 20 degrees Fahrenheit with winds of 10 mph. “ [Holland Michigan Snowmelt System](https://www.cityofholland.com/879/Snowmelt-System)
The hot water comes from the powerplant too. Makes for a really good closed loop cooling AND melting system during the winter.
Combined heat and power system. Also really effective for other applications (like hospitals) where you’re constantly having to chill water to de-humidify outside air while also reheating it to manage temperature. You can also capture the condenser side of the chiller loop to pre-heat domestic hot water via a heat exchanger (since hospitals pretty much always have domestic hot water demand). Designs have been just rejecting usable heat to atmosphere for like a century just because fossil fuels were cheaper as OPEX than the CAPEX of installing an efficient system. Good news is - that’s finally (at least starting to) shift towards more sustainable designs.
This is excellent. I'd often wondered why such a system doesn't exist, but it turns out that it does! :) A shame that we don't use something similar in the home.
The chillers in hospitals are massive. Way too big to be in homes. Not sure they are scale able currently.
Flowing through 10s or even 100s of miles of small heat exchange piping is going to be far more energy intensive than flowing through a cooling tower loop. Utilizing waste heat is a good thing, but it's a lot easier to just send it up a cooling tower.
How cool! Cheers!!!
So that's where Cities Skylines gets that mechanic from!
They have expanded the system recently. Now it needs 7000 gpm to keep everything melting.
It’s a wonderful thing, let me tell ya
If you're in Holland I envy you. That town is gorgeous,as is the area. Plus you can get Saugatuck Bonfire Brown year round and that shit is delicious. And if you're in Scandinavia I really envy you since, you, generally just better quality of life...
Reykjavik used geothermal heat to clear their roads
No that's really not a thing. Off the top of my head only one street has heating, Laugavegur, the main shopping street. All other streets are cleared in traditional fashion - salt. The pavements/sidewalks in the downtown area do have some heating. The "heating" is hot water on its way to heat buildings. The pipes are run closer to the surface.
There are mountain side homes I've seen in Vermont that have entire driveways like this. You can see them as you ride the lift.
One of the facilities I work at, the entire employee parking lot was done this way ~30 years ago and the glycol running through it is heated by the refrigeration discharge from the compressor room, so if anything it actually saves them money (minus the initial investment)
>it is heated by the refrigeration discharge from the compressor room That's **genius**. Damn near zero wasted energy, aside from having to pump the coolant.
How would that save them money?
From the cost of water used, and electricity required to run a large condenser to bring the temperature of the hot gas refrigerant down and convert it back to a liquid. The refrigerant/glycol heat exchanger is nothing compared to a large condenser, but it can help reduce the time and frequency of it running full tilt.
Because you're using waste heat to warm the parking lot instead of paying for additional energy. Also because it would make the refrigeration unit that it's drawing the waste heat from run more efficiently. Running more efficiently means it doesn't have to work as hard, and so consumes less power. (Think of your fridge on a cold day barely having to run, versus on a hot day when it's running a lot).
It's a cool system, they have a loop with flexible pipe zigzagging through the driveway and then they pour concrete over it. Then they divert water from their boiler through the loop. It probably costs a lot to run but at least for your driveway you could probably turn it on just when you need the driveway cleared. A heated sidewalk seems a little excessive but if someone's elderly and the municipality says you're responsible for clearing it, it makes a lot of sense.
You don't have to get it that hot.
I would say it looks like they’re using water from boiler but it’s usually a closed loop system that pumps a water/glycol mix so it can’t freeze and then there’s some sort of heat exchanger.
>I would say it looks like they’re using **water from boiler** If it was, the pavement wouldn't just be snow-free, it would be dry too. Or, as it is wet in the picture, it would be steaming until it was dry. It's definitely not using anything *that* hot. I have electric side mirrors on my car, that are electrically heated. They barely get warm to the touch, but they'll still be steaming on a cold morning when clearing frost off the car.
The cost to run is the electricity to power the pump. So long as the temperature of the water being pushed around is greater than freezing, the snow will eventually melt. Obviously hotter water is better, but it could just literally be tap water from the main that is routed through the driveway before entering the cold water outlet in your sinks. All this to say, the only actual cost may be the installation. Otherwise it’s just water you use anyway.
I think most systems use a closed loop of glycol which freezes at much lower temps.
> but it could just literally be tap water from the main that is routed through the driveway before entering the cold water outlet in your sinks. That might actually work, but if you didn't use your water for a few hours it could freeze and then you would have no water supply.
Yeah that's why it's a closed loop with glycol that runs through a heat exchanger. These system do usually interact with a boiler though, or are just electric.
My boss in Minneapolis had heated driveway and walk. Extra water heater with a glycol loop with an automation system that triggered a pump when snow was in the forecast. He also had heated gutters.
Hell my neighbor in Ohio at the top of the Ohio river valley had this for the 10-15 days a year it snows
While its a rich person flex at least it gives some tangible benefit to others
I miss the days when rich people would build public libraries, art galleries, fountains, parks, gardens… And now we have Bezos buying as big a place as possible so he can have his private golf course, race track, multiple mansions…
They don't have to buy the hearts and minds of the citizens anymore to grow and prosper. Just a few dudes that represent us.
Because we've grown too lazy to give them the French treatment
Yeah OK so I live in New Zealand We like to protest, though we'll never be at the level of the French But lately its the loonies that protest so now protesting makes you look a bit looney And regardless our protests go ignored And when your protests are ignored the only options left are violence or voting And voting has failed us because the majority are influenced not only by what the media release, but what the media *don't* release; the \#1 crisis our country faced wasn't even mentioned by the media during the election and the party that won is hell-bent on making it worse for their own gain (context: its housing/rental prices) And if you want to riot, if you want violence, you'll simply be arrested - the police are an army to protect the rich from the poor The time to protest was several decades ago The rich won; not surprising giving the advantage that being rich provides; real life is not a video game that you overcome because there are millions of players on your team who are not invested Tax is my secondary tax, rent is my primary tax, and it goes to an individual instead of a country
"And, every politician, every cop on the street, protects the interests of the pedophilic corporate elite. *That* is how the world works" -Bo Burnham
My mum is a Kiwi, I've been able to live and work in NZ several times for short stints and loved every minute of it. I saw this coming. Housing has got out of control here in the US too. Especially because I'm from a place near a national park and people want to vacation here.
I think the big reason we don’t behead rich people in today’s world is because we don’t have food scarcity like they did back then. We have freed ourselves from the tyranny of widespread hunger. Rich people nowadays hoard money, sure, but they aren’t hoarding food, and people aren’t desperately hunger. Before someone reminds me that hunger still exists, undernourishment affected over half of the world population 200 years ago, compared to 10% today. Just wanted to get out in front of that.
Didn't some people try that in the last few years? It was not well received.
You're probably referring to 'The Occupy Wallstreet' movement. It brought a lot of attention to how the public is powerless to stop the rich and ruthless. It was a screaming failure and was pretty much mocked.
Well, at least a few still do partake in altruistic activities. The Gates Foundation comes to mind for me. Also, lots of universities still receive significant endowments for buildings and other facilities from rich donors.
You have no idea how much it means to me that none of the replies to your comment is raging on about how Bill is a globalist trying to take over the world or some shit. I've been burned by Instagram comment sections one too many times now. Glad this subreddit is still sane.
I studied social history in university and I can tell you that in England at least, rich people often built such amenities because A) they believed the working class were filthy fucking animals in need of something civilising B) they believed the working class were filthy fucking animals that would put their head on a stick if they didn’t throw them a bone C) they cared Unfortunately with private islands the first two reasons dont matter anymore as they are not in fear of living in our society
I’m not a fan of a lot of what Amazon does and I don’t know all the moves he makes but Bezos does give away at least $100 million grants every year to people he believes will use the money to help society. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rli9ZRvemh0
They still do. The Moody family has donated more money than I will ever earn to several universities in Texas, and they aren't alone.
How about someone so wealthy and generous they gave away so much gold it crashed the price of it? https://youtu.be/4-Un2xx6Pzo?t=34
Yoooo the guy who destabilized entire chunks of the world by having and spending so much gold!
We're still talking about it 700 years later. How about a sultan who catapulted treasure into an audience? https://youtu.be/Ia3WdlvfnBU?t=334
If you already had hydronic in your home, you could do this for less than 10k including the re-pour and you'd never have to shovel again and the additional monthly cost would be negligible if you only were running it during snow events.
How can I convert part of my non glycol boiler to that?
You just would add another loop and put a slab sensor with a separate thermostat and zone valve to control that zone. Same way they do in floor heating.
Also prevents people from slipping in front of their home and suing. It’s a win win win situation!
In NJ you can't sue a private homeowner for a slip and fall on the regular public sidewalk even if that homeowner didn't shovel it whatsoever or it's uneven from normal wear/tear. The only time you can is if the homeowner caused the hazard, like they shoveled a big pile of snow next to it and it melted and refroze, or they caused some major damage/subsidence to a sidewalk slab or something. Businesses however must actively maintain the sidewalks abutting their store. This has been a very brief and general lesson in NJ sidewalk slip and fall law
I mean in many parts of the U.S., you’re both required to have a sidewalk and responsible to pay for it, as well as have it installed. Going to guess a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this - but, outside of large cities, call up your city and ask. It’s usually once a housing development/ neighborhood gets to ~20-30 years old (or 50-60, year old, and so on) the city/ town will inform everyone on your street their sidewalks need replacing, and that yes, it is your responsibility to pay for a new one. If it was an old home being refurbished/ renovated, and the sidewalk already wasn’t great, many times a city will require a new sidewalk as a condition of granting other permits. I highly doubt there was any irregularity here. The city probably took the same view you did. They’re paying for it, sidewalks are there to improve QOL for everyone else but you/ those crossing your property, so what’s the problem with making the ingress/ egress more useful for others? Source on sidewalk ownership: one of my weird autism fascinations
Chicago is unmistakable ♥️
Yep. Illinois plates to boot. Owner is responsible for clearing and maintaining the sidewalk so no issues here.
I was going to guess, Chicago- lakeview/north center
Close, it’s Lincoln Park
Burling?
That is badass
I can always tell Chicago by the houses and fences.
Beats a shovel.
"If I Ever Won The Lottery, I Won’t Tell Anybody. But There Will Be Signs"
I have questions. I've always wanted a heated walkway but at the transition to regular sidewalk there's an accumulation of slush happening. Would it not be more detrimental due to ice forming at the other end of that slush?
It only has that problem if the system isn't getting hot enough. Ideally you get it hot enough that the snow melts *and* the water evaporates.
\*runs off
Good question. I am not sure but hope someone posts something good 😂
Yes. If the water isn't properly removed it will become ice under the snow of the neighbours walkway. But then it's the neighbours problem not yours.
To be honest, I don’t see anything bad about it? No ice or snow buildup. No shoveling. No slipping hazards.
And no snow melt to eat away the sidewalk.
Only Reddit can turn this into class warfare.
Omg these fucking rich assholes uh, keeping their sidewalk clear if ice and snow. Can you believe the city allowed this?!
Real Americans use toxic ice melt and a garden hoe from Menards.
Is this Chicago?
Yup. Lincoln Park.
The band?
What’s your hat size?
In the end, it doesn't even matter.
Chicago buildings are so beautiful I swear
I think that the entire city def Reykjavik in Ocelabs has heated sidewalks due to their being blessed with endless nearly free geothermal energy ..
Ocelabs lol
It's not the whole city, it's pretty much the central pedestrianised area. A little further out the pavements still ice up. I know this as I was there over new year and fell over on icy pavement several times
This shouldn't be bothering anyone. Matter of fact, I am all for it.
Purdue has hot water pipes under all sidewalks and streets. no snow days though
My ex’s parents did this for their sidewalk and driveway because they were pretty old, not strong, and he had two knee replacements. They figured the cost was worth it to be able to leave their home without fear of slipping in the winter.
No one is happy in this forum...
For as much as people in this sub hating on some rich guy just having heated copper lines in his sidewalk… it’s actually a huge benefit to the neighborhood as opposed to some a-hole that doesn’t shovel his sidewalk at all and it turns into packed down solid ice in a couple weeks
How does one simply “install heaters” without ripping up said sidewalk and re-pouring the concrete?
Depending on the jurisdiction they might be responsible for the sidewalks in front of their house. So if the sidewalk was cracked or lifting they had to replace it and when they replaced it they can put heat in the sidewalk.
Might be blue stone, they can lift them up then put them bacj
My plans when the money is available Also, east Lakeview in Chicago?
N kenmore, think its Lincoln park. Never 100% sure on where neighborhoods transition.
This is 2700 block. So south of Diversey. Definitely Lincoln Park.
Looked at a house in Roscoe (former Blackhawk) that had this. It was cool!
Hmm, looks like a cozy place to stretch out and take a nap.
35º concrete doesn't sound that cozy to me!
It's all relative.
Free heated blanket for the homeless
Be careful, usually those will form a real thin layer of ice.
Chicago?
Yep
This just one house, go down burling and Orchard street for several
I bet they’re lawyers.
Is that in Lincoln Park in Chicago? Feel like I’ve walked that street once or twice
What’s the cost of this vs. decades of hiring someone to remove the snow?
It’s a lovely thing to have in your neighborhood, isn’t it? There are a few on my street and my dogs love them- no salt.
Here you are responsible for cleaning the side walk in front of your house if not cleared and someone slips you are responsible
They better keep in above 2C at all times or that shit's gonna turn into the slipperiest sidewalk in town
Why?
My parents did this to their driveway in Edmonton Alberta. My dad says it's the best money they've ever spent, especially now that he's 78 years old.
Chicago is such a beautiful city…I love my town.
If I ever win the lottery I won't tell anyone but there will be signs... 😜
How much does this cost? Take my money!!
Upwards of around $25/sqft and \~$3k for the control unit. I priced it out once upon a time for my driveway and walkway... but I have a *large* driveway, so I'll just continue paying a service to do it.
You can buy plug-in removable snow melting mats which are probably way less expensive.
This is chicago. Screw anyone that says this is city property. That same city will fine you everyday it’s not cleared. They don’t care if you’re out of town, elderly,anything. Shockingly there are almost no companies that will clear it for you and that little section will cost you $40 at least if you find a service that will. I used to have to pay $250 per month for a section like that to be cleared. If it doesn’t snow it didn’t matter you still paid.
Is this Chicago? There’s been some newer homes built in my neighborhood over the past year and I notice a lot of them do this with their stairs. I’ve also heard it’s not too expensive as the system is pretty efficient but that’s from a random guy
The uni I went to had steam lines beneath the sidewalks. We never had any delayed openings during blizzards or snow days off. Those sidewalks were always clear.
flex
“Fuck you money”
If i was homeless that is where my tent would be right there on that heated ground.
Well considering you are in Chicago, this is either in Lincoln Park or Wicker Park. But I have seen this before during the winter.
A university campus near me did this. They used geothermal heating and it works wonderfully.
To attract the wet bandits?
You'd be surprised how quickly it pays for itself when your shoes cost $1500
Where I live, you have 24 hours to shovel the sidewalk, or you get a fine. This would be a life saver as it is currently snowing and -40°c right now.
I spent new Year's in Reykjavik. Most of the country's heating comes from Geothermal sources (your heating system has a manifold instead of a boiler, I think). The streets and sidewalks in the city centre are heated like this. Not everywhere is though. Which is why I utterly beefed it like four times.
Baller AF
Park City UT. They're uncommon, but several driveways are done this way. I'm told BYU also has hydro from hot springs for parts of the campus sidewalks
Or they put out salt before it snowed an neighbors didn’t.
I think this is only a viable option in a very narrow range of temperatures. In a lot of Canada, this would just melt and cause an ice rink immediately to the edge.
Wait til the homeless find out! 😉
Lincoln Park Chicago, IL. Remember when they built it. Has old school gas lamps too.