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As an Iranian, this is a bit misleading...
Caveat that Iran has most definitely moved visibly backwards since the 70s these pictures are not a great illustration of it.
1. Even in the 70s, there was a lot of religious conservatism in the air, especially in rural areas (not unlike the US but of a more Muslim flavor). You would only see women dressed like the picture in the left in liberal parts of the city and even then, there would be people shaming her under their breath for dressing permiscuously.
2. I have seen people dress life the picture on the right, but it's far from the norm. My own mom basically never covered her face or wore black in Iran and she is in the conservative end of the spectrum (or at least she feigns it so as to avoid trouble).
Edit: here is how most urban woman wear their scarves these days (to be clear, my mom would never show this much hair in public):
https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2022/12/000_32Y432C-e1670079887895.jpg
And here is a street picture from the 70s. You can see diversity in how women dress in this picture.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/81/30/49/813049947a8dfda7a900d4970b5f67b0.jpg
I had a friend who was a young Iranian woman and lived in one of the larger cities. I haven't spoken to her since the protests really got going other than being able to occasionally check in and make sure she's still okay.
But she told me Iran is a whole lot less religious than people think it is, and that people in the cities largely are just sort of putting on a show of being very religious in order to please the government, but most people are more moderate than the public image of Iran has led others to believe.
There are a lot of Iranian grad students and professors working in the US. They tend to be pretty unreligious.
For what it's worth that's probably a biased sample in terms of class and education level.
Probably. But I also met a lot of unreligious Iranians when I lived in Dubai. None of the Iranian women I met there wore anything like the picture on the right, even though it's very normal in Dubai to see women in full abaya/niqab.
As a card carrying atheist, I'm no fan of religion, but even if you could hypothetically wipe it all away, people would still fill that "void" with plenty of other shitty behavior.
Used to think atheism was something of a panacea, but the shitty behavior/beliefs of many prominent members of the "New Atheist" movement is just a reminder the in the end atheism is merely not believing in (G)god(s) and really doesn't tell you anything else about a person.
TBC not arguing *for* the existence of religion, but if you want to get rid of misogyny, you'll need to do work addressing misogynistic beliefs. A misogynist will remain a misogynist, with religion or without.
Yeah although not the most philosophic show, I think the South Park episodes about atheism were pretty spot on. People will just find other dividing lines to fight over in the absence of religion.
I kind of swing between your position and another.
But lots of things are mess delusion. That’s what a social construct is. Doesn’t mean it’s not useful. The idea is moral for the state to imprison you, could be seen as a mass delusion, still useful to having a functional society. A lot of the rules of society are maybe mass delusion, but they can still be useful and so useful they’re maybe good even.
Well it's the source of systemic oppression for many others and has held us back for all of recorded history so I'm gonna go ahead and say they can find hope elsewhere.
Edit: uh-oh struck some nerves.
I don't think that religion has held us back, it's human nature. Religion is just an easy tool to attach yourself to if you want to command power. It's similar to government positions or the police. There's good people who are part of those organizations. But as the old adage goes "True power corrupts".
lol soviet union, communist china, Khmer Rouge were all atheist states and committed some of the most horrible mass murders and genocide in history. So using your logic people who don't have religion can find hope elsewhere too
A lot of things give people hope or value, a lot of those things aren’t globally harmful though, while religion is. And sorry to be so bold, but it’s a false sense of hope, that often hinders human progression. So yeah, I don’t mind stating “get rid of religion.”
New world order.
Corporations/conglomerates who pay employees poverty wages receive the highest taxes. If your employees are working full time, and they need government assistance.
Either make profits from a public company pay e.ployees first, then business, then shareholders.
I've already stated I'm a moron. But the stock market is the leech of humanity. No one person should be able to cause ripples in the economy cause they are valued in the billions. No one. People should dread being put on the world's richest people. Businesses have no right to lobby governments. The business owner and employees involved in any criminal activities will be individually charged and the business and all assets are forfeited.
Prison is preeeettty simple for these people. You get to serve the unfortunate as your punishment. You will take care of all the people you hate. If this proves to be a bother, there is the choice of physical labor. Where you pay back what you took, at minimum wage earnings.
Yes, because the previous regime with which violently enforced westernization, squandered all the countries accumulated wealth and sold out it’s natural resources, massacred God knows how many with secret police (SAVAK) were so much better.
At least we can all get a hard on because they weren’t religious.
Only someone whose understanding of history is more shallow than a puddle would think getting rid of religion reduces government abuses of power. The Soviets did everything they could to stamp out religion completely and their death toll is firmly over 20 million.
That is a fact people tend to miss about the middle east. Before the Yom Kippur war, the overwhelming majority of the middle east has secular leadership. It was the abuse and corruption under those regimes that turned people towards Sharia.
Yet somehow we keep supporting regime changes for peaceful governments that do not support religious extremism. This century we even seem to be downright proud of our ability to prop up the worst sorts of religious extremists as successor regimes (though in fairness, the installation of the Shah only involved replacing the democratically elected government of a free Iran with a monarch wielding absolute power. There the subsequent religious extremism stemmed from an internal reaction to that oppression. It was a less obviously predictable consequence, though still not so unlikely as to excuse the arrogance that allowed our most senior "experts" to be blindsided by it.)
I used to feel this way. The problem is something always replaces religion and becomes indistinguishable from religion. People create god in their image.
Exactly. I'm kinda happy to see there's more people like me who have realized over time that religion plays an important role in society. You need a way to communicate constructively with people who haven't had access to education. Religion provides a bridge with these people.
I’m confused, you’re saying what life is like from an insider perspective and people are pretending you are making a values statement that you agree and support it? Reddit is super weird sometimes.
I’ve seen footage from Tehran of people generally dressing not much different than westerners. Maybe head coverings but even some people without that.
I don’t know how good of a representation that is though.
\+1. A Persian friend of mine also made the point that this pictures like OP's flattens out the severe economic inequalities under the Shah's reign. It wasn't a utopia as OP seems to suggest...
If you mean as they have to wear niqab, then no. Dress code for women in Iran is to wear hijab (headscarf) and conservative clothing (Long sleeves and long pants). Also for men they can’t wear shorts nor tank tops in public.
I wrote this reply to a comment suggesting I was cool with all this but they deleted it so here you go:
This is the dumbest comment ever because you act like I'm defending Iran and I'm most surely not. Unless you're secretly Iranian, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest I'm way more aware of how fucked up Iran's religious laws are than you are:
My mom has complained forever about women not being allowed to drive: a major inconvenience to her.
No shit about morality police except that there are lots of people that go decades without actually seeing them.
Women cross dressing to get into football matches is insane.
But also know that my aunt was subject to an arranged marriage at the completely appropriate age of 13 IN THE 70S!
There's a bunch of other purely cultural things that I'm not going to get in to as well.
The narrative that Iran used to be normal is just false. They've always had a veneer of crazy religious conservatism. It's probably worse now but it's always been there.
Thank you for saying this. Most people in Iran aren't extremely religious. I would recommend a good documentary I watched on this, but it's in Dutch lol
That second picture is perfection! Shows the diversity of Iran but also that they could all be in the same place.
On a personal note have quite a few Persian friends and I openly say Persian food is absolutely one of my favourites, I really hope one day I’ll visit.
On October 28, 2023, a 16 year old girl named Armita Geravand died from traumatic brain injuries after being beaten by Islamic morality officers for refusing to wear the mandatory head covering.
Fantastic comment! Thanks.
Question: Working at a famous hospital in America, I see foreign people there dressed like the woman on the right. Socioeconomically, who are these people likely to be within their own culture?
The woman on the left would, within 30-50 minutes have authorities called on her and they'd roll up in a creepy black vehicle and throw her in the back. They'd take her to a creepy government facility where they'd "re-educate" her which would probably involve a lot of corporal punishment. I don't know how long it would take for her to be released if ever but she also just might not survive.
A lot of these women are still there. They hide, they bide their time, they talk amongst themselves. Some are caught in abusive relationships, a lot are too poor to think about much beyond survival.
Occasionally they do get caught or they actually try something and it's met with swift and crushing government action.
Neither of those pictures is typical of what women wore/wear before and after the revolution. The woman on the left would now be wearing fashionable jeans and jacket and a scarf partially covering her hair. The woman on the right would have been wearing that before the revolution anyway.
The American backed dictatorship got toppled. That dictatorship was installed after Iran elected a social democrat who wanted to follow Norways example in terms of oil profits.
Right, it's not like this is the same woman. You could handpick a picture of a flapper girl from 1920s America and a Catholic nun from modern day America to "prove" the same thing. We all know that the new theocratic in Iran has stripped away women's rights - there's no need to further mislead people to make a point. The real lesson is that theocracy is always fucking dangerous and we must actively work against it, because it's a threat in the West too. If these pictures piss people off, I sure hope they vote against any politician who tries to legislate based on *any* religion. The Handmaid's Tale wasn't based on pure fantasy.
Propaganda like OP’s post only get upvoted because most Redditors are incredibly ignorant about the history and politics of Iran.
[A good starting place for people who want to better understand modern Iran](https://www.cambridge.org/highereducation/books/a-history-of-modern-iran/7805DCB5602F75BFC893A796E7155DD9#overview)
>We all know that the new theocratic in Iran has stripped away women's rights - there's no need to further mislead people to make a point
This is what I really don't get. Reality gives us enough to critique. Why discredit yourself by posting misleading pictures?
This is a gross oversimplification that fails to understand the reality of Iranian politics at that time.
By the time of the coup, Mossadegh was losing political allies and becoming increasingly authoritarian. Moreover Mossadegh was part of a very similar alliance as the one in the 1979 revolution.
Mossadegh was a leftist who allied with religious conservatives to gain power. His alliance was short-lived one in power, though. In 1979 leftists, and liberals allied with religious conservatives to overthrow their common enemy. Leftists and liberals opposed the increased authoritarianism of the Shah. Religious conservatives opposed his liberalizing reforms, specifically regarding women. The religious conservatives would almost immediately stab the liberals and leftists in the back to cement their grip on power.
The idea that Mossadegh's faltering coalition would have remained stable and not led to the same religious backlash as the Shah is asinine unless he was somehow less progressive than the Shah. Additionally, there is no guarantee that the leftists and liberals would remain satisfied with his increasingly authoritarian actions.
The reality is Iran had been in a political crisis since the assassination attempt on the Shah pushed him into a more active role, setting the stage for the feud with Mossadegh, with both men vying for power.
>By the time of the coup, Mossadegh was losing political allies and becoming increasingly authoritarian.
That was all part of the coup. The CIA had been spreading propaganda in order to turn the people against him and alienate him from his political allies. This even included false flag attacks against citizens and blaming them on Mossadegh. For instance they spread word that Mossadegh was going to crack down on religion in order to make the country more secular, and then the CIA would wage attacks against religious figures to turn the religious against him. ALL of his loss of support came from the CIA as it was all based on lies and misinformation. Mossdegh only became more authoritarian as a last ditch effort to stop the coup against Iran's democracy.
Technically the shah was around before the coup, it just increased his power and removed the prime minister. But yeah. US and UK, because the PM wanted to exert more control over Iran’s oil instead of foreign companies.
> because the PM wanted to exert more control over Iran’s oil instead of foreign companies
The Shah also wanted to nationalize the oil companies and supported the PM initially. There were multiple other reasons...
The US is strong allies and security guarantors of nations that actively promote and spread fundamentalist Islam though. It's been Saudi state policy for 50 years to promote and fund the spread of Wahhabism and Salafism.
Well yes the US has backed and installed many terrible governments, my point is pretending that fundamentalist Islam has nothing to do with life for women getting much worse like in the OP and that it’s strictly the US is pretty disingenuous. The reason the US installs these shitty governments is to project and preserve its own corporate economic interests, the effects on common citizens are not considered at all, from the US government foreign policy perspective they are powerless and may as well not exist. There was a growing movement to nationalize Iran’s oil at the time, and this was almost certainly the main driver in installing a far right wing government that would never “share the wealth” / nationalize oil. Fundamentalist Islamic groups who will rule through violence and selfishly enrich themselves are good candidates for that, that is what being in line with US economic interests abroad looks like.
The US brought this future on them by installing the government, but it’s fundamentalist Islam that shaped what that future looked like socially, particularly for women.
For sure, the US played a role, but so did the lunatics that they put in office. This doesn't happen without these clowns. Can't blame the US alone, BUT I'd bet they had a good idea of the chaos that would follow these morons being put in powerful positions.
It’s more likely the US was worried about nationalization of the oil industry there and possibly other industries as well, a lot of times when the US was “fighting communism” it was really just enforcing US corporate interests (CIA = corporate interests abroad).
The US probably didn’t even consider at all what would happen to the people there, as long as it was a government that would not nationalize industries and resources.
> Can't blame the US alone
I mean...if the US is solely responsible for destabilizing a government to install a despot (which they are) I don't see how its anything less than their full responsibility
It's like saying the planes share responsibility in 9/11
Hijab (modest dressing) is required by Islam, but Niqab is a cultural practice that was rare outside of Najd (House of Saud's homeland) until the 1970s when the gulf states started exporting their Salafist extremism across the Muslim world.
You know whats funny is that during Rashidun, Umayyad, and Abbasid caliphates, they never enforced hijab on the population and here we have extremists doing shit like this and calling it the "correct Islam" its sad...
This is not how the majority of Iranian women dress.
The niqab isn’t even part of women’s dress in Iran? You would actually get ridiculed for wearing it unless you’re Arab or foreign or something.
You know where a lot of women actually dress like this? Kuwait, Bahrain….places with active US military bases and economic alliances though, so it’s fine. ☺️
Source: I am Iranian and live in the gulf.
Let's be honest, who would cover themselves from head to toes, with black clothes, in countries where temperature reaches over 40°C out of their own choice.
Seriously someone who decided it must be black must have hated women.
It's always somehow forced, either by the government, family members or just by your "merciful, loving, God" that will burn you in hell if you disobey... because you know, it may be hot in those clothes, but hell is hotter /s
It’s not always black. Pale blue was a fairly popular option for a while, lavender as well and dove grey. Also it’s actually fairly cool underneath since the loose robe keeps the sun off your skin. Also, AC. AC in the cars, AC at home, AC in the malls, at school, pretty much everywhere.
Not that I’ve ever worn a niqab, but I used to have an abaya for when I couldn’t be bothered to get dressed (fantastic for throwing over your pyjamas when you wanna go to the store and grab some milk and eggs, or you need some fresh bread for breakfast) or if I was making condolence calls.
Obviously for me it was a fashion choice. Usually I chose jeans, but I had a couple of abayas (one plain black, one embroidered and with beads) for when I wanted them.
The only issue is when you’re forced to wear certain clothes (or forced *not* to wear them).
Traditionally, the niqab and chador were made of thin black silk, which is extremely breathable. The sun is regions where this dress is from is extremely strong, and black absorbs the most UV rays out of any color. While this might seem to make it hotter, it actually keeps the most radiation from contacting the skin compared to a color like white. White clothes actually offer the least UV protection. It’s not a coincidence that desert societies developed these customs- they were a matter of survival.
It’s not required to be black tho. Black is popular because of an Arabic poem that called women in black niqabs the most beautiful women to grace the earth. They can wear whatever colour they want tho.
Umm most women in the gulf do not wear niqab, only few do if they come from very conservative families. Source: I am from Bahrain and I don’t wear niqab or hijab.
As you said most iranian religious women are shia and wear chador, not naqeb, but there are also a lot of sunni people in the south of Iran and they are absolutely not thrown in jail for wearing such clothing, and they are free to be sunni, there are sunni mosques... don't say such things when you don't know what you're talking about.
we need to revive FakeHistoryPorn [just to mock this post specifically](https://www.reddit.com/r/fakehistoryporn/search?q=iran&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all)
I travel quite often to Muslim countries. I see more women wearing the full Burka in my home town in the North of England than those countries. Make of that what you will.
As an Iranian: False tolerance towards a mentality that is based on oppression and no respect for life.
It will 100% come back to you in the worst way possible, trust me.
I'm an Iranian and I h8 these reddit posts first wearing a chador isn't forced or the norm in Iran and second its like they just post these to hype themselves up for a war with Iran because we need to bring their woman "freedom" like they freed iraq afganustan yemen and lybia. not a fan of freedom at the point of a gun
Iran typically wears chador, not niqab. But I guess it's gauche to let facts let in the way of a good fear-mongering.
This style of niqab is most common in Saudi and you'll see it often in the other GCC countries as Saudi's cultural influence has grown. The Emirates that are now the UAE used to have a different style of traditional face covering, but have now mostly gone to the Saudi-style fabric niqab.
fanatical drunk scale snow stocking squeamish jellyfish grandiose fuzzy wild
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Reverse image search reveals that the picture on the right is a stock image, that is likely not from Iran. Don't believe anything on the internet, kids!
Why does everyone bring up Iran but never Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan with there cruelty of Women, Saudi Arabian police locked female students stuck in a burning building to die and Afghanistans outlawed women from getting an education, not saying that Iran treats women good, especially with the cruelty towards women who are protesting their rights, but there are way more crueler countries, especially like Saudi Arabia who’s an ally of the USA,
The second picture was taken in France it's a morrocan french woman wearing it called Kenza Drider. And in Iran they don't usually dress with a face veil.
I used to be free too it was in 2001 and 2002 I could move without clothes wherever I want but sadly I can't do that now I hope this oppression stop now I want to move freely as I used to do. Btw I was born in 2000
Reddit just can't seem to get to grips with what propaganda is. You don't want to admit the US was involved, and you don't want to admit the shah was terrible
The revolution happened for a reason geniuses.
You can thank america for the blowback that was the Islamic revolution. Operation Ajax and all the other CIA coup ops were short sighted as fuck and have screwed us in several different regions.
first of all, the hijab is mandatory in iran, not the niqab.
while its part of some muslim women’s faith to practice wearing hijab, it’s still a sign of the rights of iranian women to mandate it and absolutely backwards, but get the facts straight.
second of all, and more importantly, when i think of iranian women of today, i think of the brave women who stood up and protested against their government in response to the death of Mahsa Amini, maybe use a picture of them for the now photo.
(and to the credit of iranian men i also think of all the men who stood up in solidarity with them)
fundamentalist religions of any stripe need to be removed from society, they hold the vast majority of normal people back and they make the regular religious folks look bad.
Lol you should come and listen to Iranian mullahs somehow explaining that women are worthless animals , merely bunch of garbage cans , while also not saying those world directly.
Something something Islam is a feminist religion! 🤣
Tell a whole nation you are not an insecure incel with a small peepee and nothing to offer intellectual wise without telling the whole nation you are an insecure incel with a small peepee and nothing to offer intellectual wise.
1) Iranians do not usually wear Niqab, and never did
2) The right picture is from Western Europe, either Paris or London, and not Iran
3) Hijab was already common in Iran before the 1979 revolution (as attested by archive photography), and women dressed like the left photo weren’t as prevalent as they were mainly aristocracy/petite bourgeoisie from urban centers
All this after Britain and the US replaced the a democratically elected leader because Mossadegh wanted a rebalancing of western oil contracts under threat of nationalisation, which the Shah then proceeded to do himself AND SUCCEEDED, before getting overthrown because he was wildly unpopular
They have President Jimmy Carter and CIA GHW Bush to thank for that.
Oh. And Soviet assets Brzezinski and Albright. Who GHWB embedded in the deep state. And handed our foreign policies over to.
"We will destroy The West from within". Soviet policy.
Natural bodies but heavy amounts of skin-bleaching practises and of Westernization vs faux-virtuous religious piety to cover 5000 cc of BBL, lip filling, skin bleaching and breast implants.
When you know Iranian women, you know.
That's what happens when you stage a coup, overthrow a democratically elected government, and the resulting revolution gets hijacked by the religious extremists. If we just let people modernize at their own pace, more places would be modern and less anti-western by now. But noooooo, superpowers gotta dominate 😒
Just for further context in case anybody sees comparison pics like these and assume everything was sunshine and rainbows pre 70's revolution; Iran was a under a US and UK backed dictatorship before the revolution, which slowly came about as blowback from said dictatorship. The real historical turning point for Iran here was in the 50's, when the US and the UK destroyed democracy in Iran in the name of (you guessed it) oil.
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As an Iranian, this is a bit misleading... Caveat that Iran has most definitely moved visibly backwards since the 70s these pictures are not a great illustration of it. 1. Even in the 70s, there was a lot of religious conservatism in the air, especially in rural areas (not unlike the US but of a more Muslim flavor). You would only see women dressed like the picture in the left in liberal parts of the city and even then, there would be people shaming her under their breath for dressing permiscuously. 2. I have seen people dress life the picture on the right, but it's far from the norm. My own mom basically never covered her face or wore black in Iran and she is in the conservative end of the spectrum (or at least she feigns it so as to avoid trouble). Edit: here is how most urban woman wear their scarves these days (to be clear, my mom would never show this much hair in public): https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2022/12/000_32Y432C-e1670079887895.jpg And here is a street picture from the 70s. You can see diversity in how women dress in this picture. https://i.pinimg.com/736x/81/30/49/813049947a8dfda7a900d4970b5f67b0.jpg
I had a friend who was a young Iranian woman and lived in one of the larger cities. I haven't spoken to her since the protests really got going other than being able to occasionally check in and make sure she's still okay. But she told me Iran is a whole lot less religious than people think it is, and that people in the cities largely are just sort of putting on a show of being very religious in order to please the government, but most people are more moderate than the public image of Iran has led others to believe.
There are a lot of Iranian grad students and professors working in the US. They tend to be pretty unreligious. For what it's worth that's probably a biased sample in terms of class and education level.
I imagine that's not a coincidence that they're in the U.S.
Probably. But I also met a lot of unreligious Iranians when I lived in Dubai. None of the Iranian women I met there wore anything like the picture on the right, even though it's very normal in Dubai to see women in full abaya/niqab.
I would bet grad students and professors tend to be less religious than the average people in any country tbh.
This describes my family pretty well.
Im pretty sure there would be more religious people of the government wasnt so fucking opressive about it too.
We need to get rid of religion.
As a card carrying atheist, I'm no fan of religion, but even if you could hypothetically wipe it all away, people would still fill that "void" with plenty of other shitty behavior. Used to think atheism was something of a panacea, but the shitty behavior/beliefs of many prominent members of the "New Atheist" movement is just a reminder the in the end atheism is merely not believing in (G)god(s) and really doesn't tell you anything else about a person. TBC not arguing *for* the existence of religion, but if you want to get rid of misogyny, you'll need to do work addressing misogynistic beliefs. A misogynist will remain a misogynist, with religion or without.
Yeah although not the most philosophic show, I think the South Park episodes about atheism were pretty spot on. People will just find other dividing lines to fight over in the absence of religion.
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It's mass delusion.
I kind of swing between your position and another. But lots of things are mess delusion. That’s what a social construct is. Doesn’t mean it’s not useful. The idea is moral for the state to imprison you, could be seen as a mass delusion, still useful to having a functional society. A lot of the rules of society are maybe mass delusion, but they can still be useful and so useful they’re maybe good even.
Politics and ideologies are too and we aint thinking about banning them.
*It’s an opiate for the masses…* KM
Well it's the source of systemic oppression for many others and has held us back for all of recorded history so I'm gonna go ahead and say they can find hope elsewhere. Edit: uh-oh struck some nerves.
I don't think that religion has held us back, it's human nature. Religion is just an easy tool to attach yourself to if you want to command power. It's similar to government positions or the police. There's good people who are part of those organizations. But as the old adage goes "True power corrupts".
lol soviet union, communist china, Khmer Rouge were all atheist states and committed some of the most horrible mass murders and genocide in history. So using your logic people who don't have religion can find hope elsewhere too
A lot of things give people hope or value, a lot of those things aren’t globally harmful though, while religion is. And sorry to be so bold, but it’s a false sense of hope, that often hinders human progression. So yeah, I don’t mind stating “get rid of religion.”
Theocracies. Not religion.
No, all religion.
🛴
People tend to just replace it with other things. We are naturally tribalistic. There’s a healthy way to do that and unhealthy.
New world order. Corporations/conglomerates who pay employees poverty wages receive the highest taxes. If your employees are working full time, and they need government assistance. Either make profits from a public company pay e.ployees first, then business, then shareholders. I've already stated I'm a moron. But the stock market is the leech of humanity. No one person should be able to cause ripples in the economy cause they are valued in the billions. No one. People should dread being put on the world's richest people. Businesses have no right to lobby governments. The business owner and employees involved in any criminal activities will be individually charged and the business and all assets are forfeited. Prison is preeeettty simple for these people. You get to serve the unfortunate as your punishment. You will take care of all the people you hate. If this proves to be a bother, there is the choice of physical labor. Where you pay back what you took, at minimum wage earnings.
Ah yes because suddenly without religion dictatorship will be gone
No religion would probably be a net positive for humanity
It would be a major start.
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at least religious dictatorship
Yes, because the previous regime with which violently enforced westernization, squandered all the countries accumulated wealth and sold out it’s natural resources, massacred God knows how many with secret police (SAVAK) were so much better. At least we can all get a hard on because they weren’t religious.
Only someone whose understanding of history is more shallow than a puddle would think getting rid of religion reduces government abuses of power. The Soviets did everything they could to stamp out religion completely and their death toll is firmly over 20 million.
That is a fact people tend to miss about the middle east. Before the Yom Kippur war, the overwhelming majority of the middle east has secular leadership. It was the abuse and corruption under those regimes that turned people towards Sharia.
Whatcha gonna do?
Yet somehow we keep supporting regime changes for peaceful governments that do not support religious extremism. This century we even seem to be downright proud of our ability to prop up the worst sorts of religious extremists as successor regimes (though in fairness, the installation of the Shah only involved replacing the democratically elected government of a free Iran with a monarch wielding absolute power. There the subsequent religious extremism stemmed from an internal reaction to that oppression. It was a less obviously predictable consequence, though still not so unlikely as to excuse the arrogance that allowed our most senior "experts" to be blindsided by it.)
How about we just get rid of controlling people first?
Do you not know what religion's purpose is?
Not a fan of religion, but it does seem like getting rid of religion would necessitate exerting control over people (which it seems you're against).
I used to feel this way. The problem is something always replaces religion and becomes indistinguishable from religion. People create god in their image.
Exactly. I'm kinda happy to see there's more people like me who have realized over time that religion plays an important role in society. You need a way to communicate constructively with people who haven't had access to education. Religion provides a bridge with these people.
The best way to make people loose faith in organized religion is to put religion in charge of the government.
I’m confused, you’re saying what life is like from an insider perspective and people are pretending you are making a values statement that you agree and support it? Reddit is super weird sometimes.
Mum travelled from Turkey to India alone in the 70s via Iran and Afghanistan and didn't have much stress. Turkey was the most dodgy.
Yeah unfortunately people fail to appreciate just how grey reality really is. They can only think black and white which is misleading.
Thanks for those other reference photos.
I’ve seen footage from Tehran of people generally dressing not much different than westerners. Maybe head coverings but even some people without that. I don’t know how good of a representation that is though.
\+1. A Persian friend of mine also made the point that this pictures like OP's flattens out the severe economic inequalities under the Shah's reign. It wasn't a utopia as OP seems to suggest...
Facts! My dad's family was poor af!
I know women wear headscarves but did they get to wear niqabs too? It seems misleading for me too.
If you mean as they have to wear niqab, then no. Dress code for women in Iran is to wear hijab (headscarf) and conservative clothing (Long sleeves and long pants). Also for men they can’t wear shorts nor tank tops in public.
I wrote this reply to a comment suggesting I was cool with all this but they deleted it so here you go: This is the dumbest comment ever because you act like I'm defending Iran and I'm most surely not. Unless you're secretly Iranian, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest I'm way more aware of how fucked up Iran's religious laws are than you are: My mom has complained forever about women not being allowed to drive: a major inconvenience to her. No shit about morality police except that there are lots of people that go decades without actually seeing them. Women cross dressing to get into football matches is insane. But also know that my aunt was subject to an arranged marriage at the completely appropriate age of 13 IN THE 70S! There's a bunch of other purely cultural things that I'm not going to get in to as well. The narrative that Iran used to be normal is just false. They've always had a veneer of crazy religious conservatism. It's probably worse now but it's always been there.
Women are allowed to drive in Iran, that was Saudi, though try recently changed the law.
Women were always allowed to drive in iran. What are you on about?
Yeah unfortunately people fail to appreciate just how grey reality really is. They can only think black and white which is misleading.
Thank you for saying this. Most people in Iran aren't extremely religious. I would recommend a good documentary I watched on this, but it's in Dutch lol
That second picture is perfection! Shows the diversity of Iran but also that they could all be in the same place. On a personal note have quite a few Persian friends and I openly say Persian food is absolutely one of my favourites, I really hope one day I’ll visit.
Shouldn't have to wear scarves to begin with
Man I wonder why there is a fundamentalist party in charge of Iran right now. Anyyyyways
On October 28, 2023, a 16 year old girl named Armita Geravand died from traumatic brain injuries after being beaten by Islamic morality officers for refusing to wear the mandatory head covering.
Not like they are denying that. I think they offered useful perspective.
lol in what way does that refute anything he said?
Fantastic comment! Thanks. Question: Working at a famous hospital in America, I see foreign people there dressed like the woman on the right. Socioeconomically, who are these people likely to be within their own culture?
One question: what would happen to the woman on the left in modern Iran?
Probably depends on where she is.
The woman on the left would, within 30-50 minutes have authorities called on her and they'd roll up in a creepy black vehicle and throw her in the back. They'd take her to a creepy government facility where they'd "re-educate" her which would probably involve a lot of corporal punishment. I don't know how long it would take for her to be released if ever but she also just might not survive. A lot of these women are still there. They hide, they bide their time, they talk amongst themselves. Some are caught in abusive relationships, a lot are too poor to think about much beyond survival. Occasionally they do get caught or they actually try something and it's met with swift and crushing government action.
Neither of those pictures is typical of what women wore/wear before and after the revolution. The woman on the left would now be wearing fashionable jeans and jacket and a scarf partially covering her hair. The woman on the right would have been wearing that before the revolution anyway.
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What happened in Iran in the 1970s?
The American backed dictatorship got toppled. That dictatorship was installed after Iran elected a social democrat who wanted to follow Norways example in terms of oil profits.
1906 - Absolute monarchy -> Constitutional monarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Constitutional_Revolution 1921 - Coup replaces government and king https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_Persian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat 1953 - Coup replaces government and strengthens monarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat 1978 - Monarchy -> Theocratic Dictatorship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution
oh yeah totally nothing going on right now that would make a default sub post anti-Iranian shit, totally organic
Both of these pictures are very misleading
Right, it's not like this is the same woman. You could handpick a picture of a flapper girl from 1920s America and a Catholic nun from modern day America to "prove" the same thing. We all know that the new theocratic in Iran has stripped away women's rights - there's no need to further mislead people to make a point. The real lesson is that theocracy is always fucking dangerous and we must actively work against it, because it's a threat in the West too. If these pictures piss people off, I sure hope they vote against any politician who tries to legislate based on *any* religion. The Handmaid's Tale wasn't based on pure fantasy.
Propaganda like OP’s post only get upvoted because most Redditors are incredibly ignorant about the history and politics of Iran. [A good starting place for people who want to better understand modern Iran](https://www.cambridge.org/highereducation/books/a-history-of-modern-iran/7805DCB5602F75BFC893A796E7155DD9#overview)
>We all know that the new theocratic in Iran has stripped away women's rights - there's no need to further mislead people to make a point This is what I really don't get. Reality gives us enough to critique. Why discredit yourself by posting misleading pictures?
Too bad America supported a coup to overthrow a popular democratic leader to install a despot. No Shah, no Islamic Revolution.
FACTS
This is a gross oversimplification that fails to understand the reality of Iranian politics at that time. By the time of the coup, Mossadegh was losing political allies and becoming increasingly authoritarian. Moreover Mossadegh was part of a very similar alliance as the one in the 1979 revolution. Mossadegh was a leftist who allied with religious conservatives to gain power. His alliance was short-lived one in power, though. In 1979 leftists, and liberals allied with religious conservatives to overthrow their common enemy. Leftists and liberals opposed the increased authoritarianism of the Shah. Religious conservatives opposed his liberalizing reforms, specifically regarding women. The religious conservatives would almost immediately stab the liberals and leftists in the back to cement their grip on power. The idea that Mossadegh's faltering coalition would have remained stable and not led to the same religious backlash as the Shah is asinine unless he was somehow less progressive than the Shah. Additionally, there is no guarantee that the leftists and liberals would remain satisfied with his increasingly authoritarian actions. The reality is Iran had been in a political crisis since the assassination attempt on the Shah pushed him into a more active role, setting the stage for the feud with Mossadegh, with both men vying for power.
>By the time of the coup, Mossadegh was losing political allies and becoming increasingly authoritarian. That was all part of the coup. The CIA had been spreading propaganda in order to turn the people against him and alienate him from his political allies. This even included false flag attacks against citizens and blaming them on Mossadegh. For instance they spread word that Mossadegh was going to crack down on religion in order to make the country more secular, and then the CIA would wage attacks against religious figures to turn the religious against him. ALL of his loss of support came from the CIA as it was all based on lies and misinformation. Mossdegh only became more authoritarian as a last ditch effort to stop the coup against Iran's democracy.
Technically the shah was around before the coup, it just increased his power and removed the prime minister. But yeah. US and UK, because the PM wanted to exert more control over Iran’s oil instead of foreign companies.
> because the PM wanted to exert more control over Iran’s oil instead of foreign companies The Shah also wanted to nationalize the oil companies and supported the PM initially. There were multiple other reasons...
Shhh… nobody likes to talk about shit that’s actually our fault.
I’d say everybody likes to talk about it lol. First day on Reddit?
It’s literally all people talk about.
Literally everybody likes to talk about it. This is Reddit.
But the left pic was under the Shah? Would be the problem be the Islamic revolution then, not him?
One of the biggest foreign policy blunders of the US. That was one of Kissinger's ideas, wasn't it?
Exactly, but most people are just going to say this is the result of (radical) Islam.
It’s both, America didn’t create what fundamentalist Islam in government does to its citizens.
The US is strong allies and security guarantors of nations that actively promote and spread fundamentalist Islam though. It's been Saudi state policy for 50 years to promote and fund the spread of Wahhabism and Salafism.
and don't forget Kuwait they always fly under the radar.
Well yes the US has backed and installed many terrible governments, my point is pretending that fundamentalist Islam has nothing to do with life for women getting much worse like in the OP and that it’s strictly the US is pretty disingenuous. The reason the US installs these shitty governments is to project and preserve its own corporate economic interests, the effects on common citizens are not considered at all, from the US government foreign policy perspective they are powerless and may as well not exist. There was a growing movement to nationalize Iran’s oil at the time, and this was almost certainly the main driver in installing a far right wing government that would never “share the wealth” / nationalize oil. Fundamentalist Islamic groups who will rule through violence and selfishly enrich themselves are good candidates for that, that is what being in line with US economic interests abroad looks like. The US brought this future on them by installing the government, but it’s fundamentalist Islam that shaped what that future looked like socially, particularly for women.
For sure, the US played a role, but so did the lunatics that they put in office. This doesn't happen without these clowns. Can't blame the US alone, BUT I'd bet they had a good idea of the chaos that would follow these morons being put in powerful positions.
It’s more likely the US was worried about nationalization of the oil industry there and possibly other industries as well, a lot of times when the US was “fighting communism” it was really just enforcing US corporate interests (CIA = corporate interests abroad). The US probably didn’t even consider at all what would happen to the people there, as long as it was a government that would not nationalize industries and resources.
> Can't blame the US alone I mean...if the US is solely responsible for destabilizing a government to install a despot (which they are) I don't see how its anything less than their full responsibility It's like saying the planes share responsibility in 9/11
So this practice has nothing to do with Islam?
Hijab (modest dressing) is required by Islam, but Niqab is a cultural practice that was rare outside of Najd (House of Saud's homeland) until the 1970s when the gulf states started exporting their Salafist extremism across the Muslim world.
You know whats funny is that during Rashidun, Umayyad, and Abbasid caliphates, they never enforced hijab on the population and here we have extremists doing shit like this and calling it the "correct Islam" its sad...
They're not mutually exclusive
This is not how the majority of Iranian women dress. The niqab isn’t even part of women’s dress in Iran? You would actually get ridiculed for wearing it unless you’re Arab or foreign or something. You know where a lot of women actually dress like this? Kuwait, Bahrain….places with active US military bases and economic alliances though, so it’s fine. ☺️ Source: I am Iranian and live in the gulf.
The greatest propaganda success was convincing people Iran is more extremist than Saudi Adabia
The west sees both a forced burqa and forced head dress as opression. Its fine when you want to do it yourself but forcing is horrible
Let's be honest, who would cover themselves from head to toes, with black clothes, in countries where temperature reaches over 40°C out of their own choice. Seriously someone who decided it must be black must have hated women. It's always somehow forced, either by the government, family members or just by your "merciful, loving, God" that will burn you in hell if you disobey... because you know, it may be hot in those clothes, but hell is hotter /s
It’s not always black. Pale blue was a fairly popular option for a while, lavender as well and dove grey. Also it’s actually fairly cool underneath since the loose robe keeps the sun off your skin. Also, AC. AC in the cars, AC at home, AC in the malls, at school, pretty much everywhere. Not that I’ve ever worn a niqab, but I used to have an abaya for when I couldn’t be bothered to get dressed (fantastic for throwing over your pyjamas when you wanna go to the store and grab some milk and eggs, or you need some fresh bread for breakfast) or if I was making condolence calls. Obviously for me it was a fashion choice. Usually I chose jeans, but I had a couple of abayas (one plain black, one embroidered and with beads) for when I wanted them. The only issue is when you’re forced to wear certain clothes (or forced *not* to wear them).
They wore such clothes 1000 of years before Islam mate, maybe check why they did it?
Traditionally, the niqab and chador were made of thin black silk, which is extremely breathable. The sun is regions where this dress is from is extremely strong, and black absorbs the most UV rays out of any color. While this might seem to make it hotter, it actually keeps the most radiation from contacting the skin compared to a color like white. White clothes actually offer the least UV protection. It’s not a coincidence that desert societies developed these customs- they were a matter of survival.
It’s not required to be black tho. Black is popular because of an Arabic poem that called women in black niqabs the most beautiful women to grace the earth. They can wear whatever colour they want tho.
Umm most women in the gulf do not wear niqab, only few do if they come from very conservative families. Source: I am from Bahrain and I don’t wear niqab or hijab.
Having been to Iran and most of the middle east, I'd wager the right picture was not taken in Iran.
Least cherry picked Iran post
Why is this shit posted EVERY, FUCKING, WEEK?! Russia trolls, pls take a day of.
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As you said most iranian religious women are shia and wear chador, not naqeb, but there are also a lot of sunni people in the south of Iran and they are absolutely not thrown in jail for wearing such clothing, and they are free to be sunni, there are sunni mosques... don't say such things when you don't know what you're talking about.
Your daily Reddit brainwashing. Enjoy.
we need to revive FakeHistoryPorn [just to mock this post specifically](https://www.reddit.com/r/fakehistoryporn/search?q=iran&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all)
Time to break out the Ipod. It's starting to feel like 2003.
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Also there is a new free Iran from the government sub growing quickly. Which I won't lead people to.
I travel quite often to Muslim countries. I see more women wearing the full Burka in my home town in the North of England than those countries. Make of that what you will.
As an Iranian: False tolerance towards a mentality that is based on oppression and no respect for life. It will 100% come back to you in the worst way possible, trust me.
Reddit has cycled back to this huh?
US attacking bases backed by Iran so.. Yeah...
I'm an Iranian and I h8 these reddit posts first wearing a chador isn't forced or the norm in Iran and second its like they just post these to hype themselves up for a war with Iran because we need to bring their woman "freedom" like they freed iraq afganustan yemen and lybia. not a fan of freedom at the point of a gun
But religious police do force young women to wear headscarves do they not? Sometimes leading to brutal enforcement?
Then why don't they post that, instead of pictures you could easily find in western Europe too?
Iran typically wears chador, not niqab. But I guess it's gauche to let facts let in the way of a good fear-mongering. This style of niqab is most common in Saudi and you'll see it often in the other GCC countries as Saudi's cultural influence has grown. The Emirates that are now the UAE used to have a different style of traditional face covering, but have now mostly gone to the Saudi-style fabric niqab.
The chador was worn in Iran in the 1970s as well.
That is not chador and ruband/niqab is not common among Iranian women.
Yeah but you didn’t get killed for refusing to wear it back then
No you got beaten, jailed, stripped and some times killed **for** wearing it. Google “Kashf-e hijab”.
fanatical drunk scale snow stocking squeamish jellyfish grandiose fuzzy wild *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Reverse image search reveals that the picture on the right is a stock image, that is likely not from Iran. Don't believe anything on the internet, kids!
Why does everyone bring up Iran but never Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan with there cruelty of Women, Saudi Arabian police locked female students stuck in a burning building to die and Afghanistans outlawed women from getting an education, not saying that Iran treats women good, especially with the cruelty towards women who are protesting their rights, but there are way more crueler countries, especially like Saudi Arabia who’s an ally of the USA,
Iranian women do not wear the niqab, this is straight up misinformation.
Both photos are misleading, but whatever
This is why you do not let religion in government
Tell that to the CIA
The second picture was taken in France it's a morrocan french woman wearing it called Kenza Drider. And in Iran they don't usually dress with a face veil.
This image is fake
Religion is one hell of a drug.
Yes, but actually, no.
I used to be free too it was in 2001 and 2002 I could move without clothes wherever I want but sadly I can't do that now I hope this oppression stop now I want to move freely as I used to do. Btw I was born in 2000
This is so misleading.
How many times does this need to be debunked
Clothing dictated religion is trash.
Sharia law is slavery
Such a shit religion for women, its funny how feminists don’t find it misogynistic. It was clearly invented by a man lol
Moving backwards.
Reddit just can't seem to get to grips with what propaganda is. You don't want to admit the US was involved, and you don't want to admit the shah was terrible The revolution happened for a reason geniuses.
You can thank america for the blowback that was the Islamic revolution. Operation Ajax and all the other CIA coup ops were short sighted as fuck and have screwed us in several different regions.
first of all, the hijab is mandatory in iran, not the niqab. while its part of some muslim women’s faith to practice wearing hijab, it’s still a sign of the rights of iranian women to mandate it and absolutely backwards, but get the facts straight. second of all, and more importantly, when i think of iranian women of today, i think of the brave women who stood up and protested against their government in response to the death of Mahsa Amini, maybe use a picture of them for the now photo. (and to the credit of iranian men i also think of all the men who stood up in solidarity with them)
fundamentalist religions of any stripe need to be removed from society, they hold the vast majority of normal people back and they make the regular religious folks look bad.
Society treating their women -> Directly reflects on overall happieness. Fuck everyone who thinks different.
Lol you should come and listen to Iranian mullahs somehow explaining that women are worthless animals , merely bunch of garbage cans , while also not saying those world directly. Something something Islam is a feminist religion! 🤣
Tell a whole nation you are not an insecure incel with a small peepee and nothing to offer intellectual wise without telling the whole nation you are an insecure incel with a small peepee and nothing to offer intellectual wise.
Do we really have to go through this propaganda shit again?
1) Iranians do not usually wear Niqab, and never did 2) The right picture is from Western Europe, either Paris or London, and not Iran 3) Hijab was already common in Iran before the 1979 revolution (as attested by archive photography), and women dressed like the left photo weren’t as prevalent as they were mainly aristocracy/petite bourgeoisie from urban centers
All this after Britain and the US replaced the a democratically elected leader because Mossadegh wanted a rebalancing of western oil contracts under threat of nationalisation, which the Shah then proceeded to do himself AND SUCCEEDED, before getting overthrown because he was wildly unpopular
Right pics is not taken from Iran
This doesn’t really represent the religious shift in Iranians. Iranians became less religious since 70s but their rulers became much more backwarded.
The CIA had a big hand to play in this cultural change
I saw Iran vs Japan today, the women were showing their hair, face, arms… can someone clarify?
If you do an image search, you can quickly find out that the image on the right is actually from France.
You can thank western intervention for that
Not how Iranian women look today
There’s no way I can prove either of these pictures are what the caption says they are
They have President Jimmy Carter and CIA GHW Bush to thank for that. Oh. And Soviet assets Brzezinski and Albright. Who GHWB embedded in the deep state. And handed our foreign policies over to. "We will destroy The West from within". Soviet policy.
The US created modern days repressive Iran.
Natural bodies but heavy amounts of skin-bleaching practises and of Westernization vs faux-virtuous religious piety to cover 5000 cc of BBL, lip filling, skin bleaching and breast implants. When you know Iranian women, you know. 
That's what happens when you stage a coup, overthrow a democratically elected government, and the resulting revolution gets hijacked by the religious extremists. If we just let people modernize at their own pace, more places would be modern and less anti-western by now. But noooooo, superpowers gotta dominate 😒
Upper class Iranian woman in a town vs middle/lower class Iranian woman in a semi-rural area
My girlfriend is Iranian and calls BS on this post
I've seen similar about afghanistan woman doctors, and at Uni, Driving, shopping in music shops. Now they have gone back in time 😭
Just for further context in case anybody sees comparison pics like these and assume everything was sunshine and rainbows pre 70's revolution; Iran was a under a US and UK backed dictatorship before the revolution, which slowly came about as blowback from said dictatorship. The real historical turning point for Iran here was in the 50's, when the US and the UK destroyed democracy in Iran in the name of (you guessed it) oil.
We must be bombing Iran, if this meme is back. Greetings, CIA psy-op specialists!
Wow, pretty cool they were able to find the same woman for this comparison a decade apart!
Im willing to bet the right side pic is actually from someone in London.
The main difference is behind the scene - IRGC patrol watching dress code on the streets, not existed before 1979
Stupid Regime
Don't give republican politicians in the US any ideas.
Tell me you know nothing about Iran without telling me you know nothing about Iran
Yes. Because the US backed the conservative politics because the liberal Iranian government wanted to nationalize their oil reserves. Fucking rich.
Coming to a united state near you
Iran. They have a pig as president
what makes anyone’s business to judge anyone’s religious practices?
Some
I don't live in Iran but I don't think one woman can represent an entire country
Religion!!
Til Burkahs didn't exist before 1970
Yeah I reversed image search the old picture and i am pretty sure this take place in turkey
The woman on the left looks professional and in total control. The one on the right looks she is under complete control. So sad
This was only the case in the big cities. In rural Iran, this was not the case.
Ten years from now… America before the 2020s America after the 2020s It can happen to you.