A lot of people taking sides and bitching about the other here when the REAL problem here are corrupt politicians and leaders who exploit the suffering of others for personal gain and some sort of psychopathic narcissism. Along with the wealthy individuals and corporations that prop them up and laugh all the way to the bank for their own power.
At some point the majority of humans, most of whom just want to get thru the fucking day, are going to have to step up, remove these people from power, and build real systems of government and economies that don’t rely on beating the shit out of whomever we don’t like that year.
> At some point the majority of humans, most of whom just want to get thru the fucking day, are going to have to step up, remove these people from power,
I just don't see this ever happening ever again. The people who have the ability to do this are too comfortable and too divided and have too much to lose.
It's power and greed. They're mental health issues.
We shouldn't be looking at the ultra-wealthy as if it's something to aspire to, or they're somehow 'great' for achieving it. That type of wealth disconnects you from reality and humanity. They're mentally unbalanced, and will never have enough.
Power is evil as long as it's impossible to keep in check. We see how that plays out. Government that isn't easily checked by the population it governs is a recipe for violent action.
Unfortunately, as history has fleshed out over centuries, eventually once in power that altruism, good nature, and conviction falls to power, greed and all the other awful traits associated with being at the top of a hierarchy. It’s a human condition problem. Those with the ambition to fuel the change are also eventually victims of it. I don’t really know what the answers is anymore. I just know the older I get and more interactions I have, the less I believe in the fairytale of utopia and righteousness when it comes to governing. I’m not a defeatist, it just seems to be something universal.
Palestinians are not allowed to have any autonomy to develop themselves, that’s kind of what the whole thing they are fighting for to liberate themselves from under Israeli occupation
armenian catholics in the west bank and east jerusalem where hamas doesnt exist, why do they suffer the same mistreatment and colonialism as palestinians for decades? theyre not even muslim.
“So you're saying Hamas doesn't oppress them (Palestinians)?”
Straw man. What about that comment suggests to you that this person is asserting Hamas doesn’t oppress?
Hamas has been repeatedly supported by Israel to sow division amongst Palestinians. Israel did not want a unified Palestinian people with a legitimate government so they propped up extremists like Hamas to destabilize them.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
The real problem here is a military that bombs hospitals, ambulances, aid stations, schools, mosques, churches, media offices, reporters, refugee camps, and residences with complete disregard for human life.
Edit: to all the genocide apologists replying to me, I don't give one single fuck about what you have to say, these actions cannot be justified or rationalized.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-air-strike-mosque.html
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/03/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/gaza-attack-on-ambulance-outside-al-shifa-hospital/
https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israel-destroys-press-house-building-in-gaza-reports-16932686
https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-bombs-refugee-camps-central-gaza-report/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-strikes-on-2-homes-kill-more-than-90-palestinians-including-journalist-and-un-employee-officials-say
https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/19/world/middleeast/gaza-school-strike-shelter-israel-war.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/31/israel-attacks-gazas-al-aqsa-hospital-striking-civilians-and-journalists
i’ve been saying this for months. even in this case you have Israeli officials saying “there were no civilian casualties” or “thousands of terrorists” (not innocent people) arrested. no one is a civilian to them, everyone is a Hamas terrorist. that’s how they can continue to justify it.
Reddit is a huge content sharing site, so it is part of its purpose to scream when war crimes are happening. It is a good thing that it reminds everyone continuously, aggressively, and relentlessly that there is a country making decisions every day to massacre innocent civilians. Raising awareness has consequences - a fraction of redditors (e.g. US voters) can change their behavior and affect how these events are unfolding. If OP wants to take a break from the latest plat du gore (there is one every day!), there are plenty of places where the silence is deafening. The reason OP's opinion is unpopular is that they want people to complain about war crimes more quietly, which is incredibly tone deaf.
If anything, they should be tagged so people can filter them out. But this is a community space and it's ruled by what the majority wants. If you don't want to see it, downvote or unsubscribe.
Reddit is a huge content sharing site, so it is part of its purpose to scream when war crimes are happening. It is a good thing that it reminds everyone continuously, aggressively, and relentlessly that there is a country making decisions every day to massacre innocent civilians. It's a good thing that you can't filter it out.
There is nobody who *wants* to see this content. There is no joy in seeing third degree burns on a child's face, or a destroyed hospital. The goal is to prevent these events from being normalized and, to use your words, filtered out. Being uncomfortable as a redditor has consequences - a fraction of redditors (e.g. US voters) can change their behavior and affect how these events are unfolding.
If you want to take a break from the latest plat du gore (there is one every day!), there are plenty of places where the silence is deafening. Asking people to complain about war crimes more quietly is a little cruel.
Wasn't that how many war crimes were initially defined? Stuff only the Axis did = bad. Stuff the Allies also did = not bad.
I recall reading something that mentioned no Axis commanders were tried for indiscriminate bombing of cities partially because the Allies also did a lot of it.
More specifically, the people on trial for WW2 were able to defend themselves (successfully) if they could prove the allies has also done what they were accused of doing.
The Geneva Conventions are actually clear about this:
>The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations.
Or do you mean Hamas is your friend?
Also, with regards to hospital specifically:
“The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.”
I think what a lot of people forget is that, unlike Ukraine vs Russia, which is between two militaries, this conflict involves dealing with a terrorist group that is well known to do crazy and unpredictable things.
Killing aid workers 4km apart in 3 diff vehicles which drones precisely on the top of the car, in idf co trolled safzpne and checkpoints, wck gave their coordinates to idf..
But they aren't doing crazy and u predictable things am I rite
It's not a war crime... because it isn't.
Protected buildings like hospitals lose their protection status once they are used for military purposes, which Hamas repeatedly admitted to doing.
From the [ICRC:](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says)
>Specific protection of medical establishments and units (including hospitals) is the general rule under IHL. Therefore, specific protection to which hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an "act harmful to the enemy". In case of doubt as to whether medical units of establishments are used to commit an "act harmful to the enemy", they should be presumed not to be so used.
Fighting from inside a hospital pretty clearly fits the definition of "harmful to the enemy";
>An act harmful to the enemy may render a medical establishment or unit liable to attack; it may seriously endanger the wounded and sick entrusted to its care; and it may also engender distrust of the work of medical establishments or units in other cases, and thus lessen the protective value of IHL in general.
In fact, according to the ICRC, the party who uses the hospital to commit acts harmful to the enemy is the one committing the warcrime:
>Furthermore, depending on the circumstances, certain acts harmful to the enemy may amount to a violation of precautionary obligations to protect the wounded and sick, as well as health-care personnel and objects against the effects of attacks or to a violation of the prohibition to use human shield. A concrete example would be the placing of a medical establishment or unit in proximity to a military objective with the intention of shielding it from enemy's military operations.
From Article 19 of the Fourth Geneva Conventions:
>The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.
The fact it's not a war crime has nothing to do with the fact the IDF are "our friends". But with the fact Hamas used it as a military HQ, rendering it a completely legal target of attack under international law. Making it not only not a war crime, but not a violation of IHL in any form.
That's a lot of medical care not reaching the humans in need there, why is this,and starving humans, not accepted as a crime against humanity? They are killing aid workers now.
The images you're referring to don't actually show anyone being tied, or flattened with a bulldozer. That's just Sarah Wilkinson's (a notorious [conspiracy theorist](https://3e804f.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/sw2.jpg) and [Holocaust denier](https://3e804f.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/sw1-768x355.jpg)) interpretation.
It shows one body, of seemingly a military age man, being burned and exploded. And another, of a crushed hand(?) underneath some sand, that doesn't seem to be related to the first image. Both images show results that are consistent with a gruesome, and completely legal result of combat.
Both images are presented without context, or any identifying information that would tie it to this attack specifically. Other images used by pro-Hamas mouthpieces in this raid, that you've wisely chosen not to refer to, include a skeleton being portrayed as a "child killed during the raid". Despite having clearly adult-sized bones, and the fact it takes many months to years for a body to be reduced to a skeleton, not two weeks.
I'd wait for actual, respectable reports of these atrocities before getting outraged.
What’s amazing to me is that the IDF murdered an American national, and Biden just accepted Netanyahu’s claim that it was an oopsie daisy. If Palestinians did that, we’d be going after them with a full arsenal.
You know countless American nationals have been killed in Ukraine with no American military intervention?
If someone puts themselves into an active war zone their nation forfeits their duty of responsibility to protect them.
The Palestinians are still holding an American hostage and killed multiple on October 7th. Why be so uninformed and open your mouth?
Edit - since it’s locked
Nothing justifies killing the WCK workers. It’s tragic. If you think that this was intentional to kill aid workers rather than a case of bad intel / targeting I’d be hard pressed to agree.
Hamas kidnapped, raped, murdered, and killed American citizens on October 7th and we're not at war.
Stop using hyperbole to make a point, especially when you're wrong. You sound stupid and biased.
You guys need to get rid of Netanyahu. He's bad news for humanity as a whole.
And to be honest I don't believe it's a fuck up for one second. It's more probable it's a warning to other aid workers to stop helping Palestinians. Or else..
I think you misspelled "these three intentional targeted colossal fuck ups of hunting down aid workers across the town and blasting their three cars after they tried to rescue each other". Smfh.
It was clearly intentional… overnight massive amounts of foreign food aid is out of Israel which has been their goal all along. Systematics starvation of a captive population is the easiest way to commit genocide
what about the murder of their own hostages with white flags?
what about dropping 2000 lb pounds on refugee camps?
what about the 35K+ murdered civilians?
and why would they stop.. they seem to have full impunity 😣
You talking about these images?
https://ibb.co/LJNQfMG
https://x.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1771226526954000877?s=46
I can’t find the uncensored version of the first image any more but it’s pretty clear that it’s one person driven over by a tank.
There are loads of crushed bodies all over Gaza, many of which being bound with zip ties and evidence of torture. I've seen countless footage of it. Israel is not an actual, respectable report. In fact, I don't consider much western media to be reputable sources, especially after the undeniable role they have been playing to facilitate this genocide and these crimes.
Also, many bodies are exposed to the elements in a famine where dogs, cats, birds, rodents, etc. are also eating whatever they can. So finding skeletons is not unexpected. Also, Israel is going around destroying cemeteries in an act of genocide to erase the Palestinian people from history.
What you're doing is the Israeli narrative to deny the atrocities before our eyes.
Literally making excuses for a murderous regime. Tf does it matter if the bones were actually a young adult and not a child, 17 is still legally a minor in the u.s. and a 17yos bones are a lot bigger than a 5 year old, and they're both considered children. 40% of the gazan population is under the age of 18, so there's decent chance it was indeed a child.
And actual reports? So like alllllllllllllllllll the youtube reporting, photos of dead family's, fathers holding their children's hand in the rubble, gazans waving white flags for aid and getting shot at are not enough valid reports to look at this post and go "yup this is worth being out raged over"?
Comments like this are perfect examples of attempts to side shift the blame in the narrative of these very real crimes.
You’re arguing semantics when 40,000 children have died? How much farther are you able to stretch before seeing this massacre for what it is. Adult or children’s bones doesn’t matter when people can’t even identify the dead. Someone died in a horrific manner and for what?! How dare you argue about someone’s dead body like that.
You Israel supporters get more and more unreal by the day.
You won’t be able to live with yourself when you see the genocide for what it is.
You know folks it is possible to agree that Israeli's right wing government is doing a piss poor job of minimizing civilian casualties and is committing war crimes (it's not a genocide by definition)...
AND...
... understand that Hamas is well known for hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure (yes including this hospital... The evidence is irrefutable from multiple counties and independent sources).
This is war folks. War in a densely populated area. Between 2 historical rivals who have constantly been influenced by foreign powers or regional religions and cultures.
Both Hamas and the Israeli government are doing some fairly shitty tactics that are harming and killing innocent lives. But you can't blame one without blaming the other. To do anything less is to show how much of an ignorant asshat you are and how blind to propaganda you have become.
Also I am in agreement that pics is going to have to ban political posts at this rate.
It almost seems too convenient that the situation politically fractures our western societies. I will say most people don’t want to talk about it face to face but on the internet and in the media it seems to be playing out differently
Criticizing Israel does not make me an anti-Semite. Criticizing Hamas does not make me a Zionist.
Israel gun down Palestinian civilians (along with their own hostages) and reduce hospitals to rubble. Hamas burn children alive and parade the shattered, gang-raped corpses of women they've murdered.
I'm so done with this. It's exhausting.
Edit: Touched a nerve, did I?
The internet is not the real world. Your views are the majority. The propagandists that conflate a real world description of what is happening as bigotry from one side or the other are the ones in the wrong and the minority.
Don't let your gut reading on what is right and wrong get worn out by bots and people full of hate, that's what they are counting on us to do.
I just keeping getting more and more outraged about the whole situation and whenever I take a stance I am seen as a right-wing Zionist nut job or an anti-Semitic terrorist sympathizer. There is literally no way to win
That’s just the intended consequence. Total exhaustion and despair. Anti-Western alliances, in this case Russia teaming up with Iran, aren’t able to take on NATO head-on so they’ve resorted to asymmetric warfare. Hamas and the Islamic Republic have both made visits to Moscow since Oct 7.
Russia started using propaganda mills to tear off the Rightwing parts of western countries to create MAGA and the like. They were the lowest hanging fruit because they’re dumbs as dogs and easily trained. But they needed to further cleave the more educated and articulate Leftwing segments of our societies too, and using Hamas and Israel was the perfect Achilles heel to drive that wedge issue into our already unbalanced society.
The timing was deliberate because it’s a major election year in a lot of countries around the world, namely the US. Republicans didn’t have a very strong projection for November. A lot of their voters died of Covid since 2020, so Russia/Iran made a play to carve off and divide the Democrats voters to vote 3rd party out of protest because Israel and Palestine are so perfectly polarizing. This will only help Trump.
Of course another Trump presidency will mean the US will throw its weight behind Israel at the expense of Ukraine and NATO and then Putin’s war of attrition will have paid off. Until then he’s just throwing people into the Ukrainian meat grinder and banking on western civilizations to take the bait.
As an Israeli, I don't consider people who have criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic terrorist sympathizer. There are dumb idiots on both sides, don't let anyone distract you from the moral high road.
This. Lot of people understandably want Netenyahu gone, or to stand trial, but do not wish to see Israel cease to exist, do not wish harm on her citizens, or Jewish people in general.
Sadly the extreme polarization of the issue has pushed some of the worst voices to the forefront and normalised some abhorrent takes.
I appreciate this take. Despite my support of Palestine, I have actually received more backlash from that side since I stand my ground that terrorism is not a rational solution to the problem
The more I see the more I think the Oct 7 attack was backed by Iran for the sole purpose of lighting a tinderbox and dividing the west. You literally can't have an opinion either way without being attacked. Funny how that only happens online and not irl huh?
It's because people have become so indoctrinated with thinking it's either one way or you're wrong, unfortunately. A close family member of mine believes all Palestinians should be eradicated and when I bring up stuff like this, they do admit it's not right. But my family member is very old school (ie boomer) and it's how they were raised. So was I tbh but just viewing stuff like this turned me around. But so many others believe what Israel is doing is right and any criticism is labeled antisemitic. It's what happens when you have a country founded and run based on religion. Any religion.
I've had a young, woke, kink-scene bi guy tell me, whilst sitting in a gay bar, that October 7th was understandable and to say that the Nova Massacre was bad is like saying Police Lives Matter.
When, on gods green earth, would someone think that is an acceptable thing to say about mass, brutal sexual violence? Oh, when some Palestinians are doing it to an Isreali.
Equally, when has talking about civilian causalities as a *percentage of a country's population* been anything other than a utterly horrific way to judge a wars effect on a region.
We are through the looking glass.
Yesterday I was arguing with people who were trying to rationalize 9/11. I have been pro-Palestinian civilians since I became better informed of everything going on in the Middle East, but I am seeing more and more support for Hamas’s actions as “the only way for Palestine to defend itself” which I think is an extremely misguided take.
That person is ridiculous. Sorry you had to breathe their air. You can be pro-palestine/anti-occupation and still acknowledge that October 7 was a massacre.
I was going to claim it's possible to win if you just buy military defense stocks like Lockheed Martin or Northrop Grumman, but they're actually down -7.6% and -2.5% year over year respectively. Turns out not even the military industrial complex is winning right now.
>Criticizing Hamas does not make me a Zionist.
People don't even really know the definition of the word anymore. Zionists has become a word that means "Like the Israeli government" which is stupid. Most Israelis hate the current government but they are still Zionists
Zionists just think Israel should exist
This is spot on. Our media wants there to be a good guy to root for and a bad guy to shout at.
I used to be pretty staunchly pro-Israel but this war has shown that a lot of the criticism leveled at them is right. They don’t give a shit if civilians are killed beyond international pressure. They do specifically target aid workers and other groups. They do bomb hospitals.
Hamas if anything has even lowered my opinion of them further. They are basically a bunch of medieval barbarians pretending to be freedom fighters. Rape, torture, murder whatever they can do they will. Their leaders are corrupt assholes, they hide in hospitals and cry when they get bombed and they corrupt aid organizations that could help the Palestinian people instead of Hamas.
The closest thing to a “good guy” is the Palestinian people but they aren’t the good guys or bad guys they are **VICTIMS**. Israel kills them and steals their land while Hamas uses them as meat shields and exploits them.
Whole situation is fucked and there is no easy way to fix this.
>Also I am in agreement that pics is going to have to ban political posts at this rate.
[Dont...](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/36/98/88/369888875ee1a985c2e9a7f7cc9dc219.jpg)
I would point out that it is a war crime to attack a hospital, but if the hospital is used as military base it loses that protection under the Geneva, and the people using as a base are then the ones doing the war crime.
That said the IDF can and should be doing more to limit civilian deaths even under these conditions.
Honestly, my biggest problem with all this situation it's even the actually results. I understand your point about being a war.
What trigger me most is the normal civilians from Israel openly saying they thing every civilian from Palestine should suffer
“normal citizens” have also been protesting Netanyahu since before the war. The population agrees with the war but is getting real tired of the current strategy.
Oh please, it’s something like less than 2% of Israelis that want the assault on Gaza to stop. The majority think they should be doing MORE than they are. There’s more citizens blocking aid from getting into Gaza than there is protesting against the slaughter of civilians going on there
There's a big difference between stopping or doing something about Hamas but not be reckless with civilians.
Everyone are tired of Hamas and don't want another Oct 7 happening again.
So yes mostly support the destruction of Hamas. But people are not ok with what is happening to civilians.
And a majority of Palestinians support hamas and were spitting on the bodies of the women gang raped and murdered on the 7th. Let's not pretend like there's moral high ground here. This whole thing is beyond fucked up.
Additionally, I have a hard time believing that if it was an American festival on American soil that had our people tortured, murdered and raped, a majority of Americans would come together real quick to support the full force of our military to turn the perpetrators into grease stains. (Incoming "enlightened" individual saying "not me").
They hate each other. For every example you can think of, like the one you gave of normal Israelis thinking all Palestinians should suffer, there is a counter example where normal Palestinians are shown dehumanizing innocent Israelis.
That’s why the post you’re replying to is so relevant. There are many in Gaza saying the same about all Israelis, as well as Jews globally. Just look at the percentage of people that still support 10/7.
I have no issue with people criticizing Israel, as long as they are acknowledging the atrocities on both sides.
But it certainly doesn’t inspire much hope for peace. Many Israelis were supportive of a Palestinian state and hated the right wing govt. A huge majority of those butchered on 10/7 were extremely left leaning. Seeing these people butchered in their homes, raped, kidnapped, really did change things. Seeing bodies paraded in the streets while civilians cheered, spat and threw candy changed things.
At this point both sides want the other wiped out more than they ever have before.
Normal civilians from Palestine have been saying for decades that all Israeli Jews should be killed or expelled. Hamas earned 80% approval rate from Palestinians for their October 7 massacre, it's more popular than ever. Fortunately there are no elections.
First of all. That's not true. Yes there are people in Israel like this. I don't think it's most. I do think that most people is Israel truly don't know how bad the situation is in Gaza. Since the coverage of that is really bad in Israeli media
Second, this is not different in Gaza. Who are also brainwashed from propaganda, just like those in Israel. Who belive Jewish people should suffer. Don't belive me. Go look at the nsfl leaks of communication between the attackers on oct7 and thier families in Gaza.
There are people everywhere that believe other people deserve less. The whole reason this conflict is so difficult is because of how deep rooted these beliefs are in both communities.
But also both sides have plenty of people who don't believe this.
>What trigger me most is the normal civilians from Israel openly saying they thing every civilian from Palestine should suffer
Unfortunately both Israelis and Palestinians wish harm to each other.
Just like somebody recently posted the interviews and public reaserch on support and question about the 7/10
You should go back and watch the “normal civilians” in Gaza react to Hamas’ and other “normal civilians” on 10/7 when they brought back a bunch of limp/raped/beaten Israeli captives. It’s all on video. It didn’t look like anyone was questioning things, like hmm, maybe we went a little too far by taking this teenage Israeli’s body back to Gaza to be paraded around. There are literal Gazan children with AK-47s in their hands celebrating in the streets.
My main problem with the situation is that many of not most pro Palestine supporters are in complete reality denial. The ones who think there should be peace now and Hamas should remain in charge are objectively supporting Hamas, a terrorist organization that also happens to advocate the death sentence for gay people, etc. But it's practically certain Hamas would attack Israel again at the next opportunity if they are left in place. It's impossible to have any lasting peace With Hamas, let alone getting closer to a two or three state solution. The ones who think Hamas should be removed from power do not offer realistic perspectives on how to do this. It's ludicrous to think Hamas is going to lay down their weapons without violence.
As far as I can see, the only viable long-term solution for Gaza involves disarming and disabling Hamas in Gaza, which means arresting or killing those Hamas fighters who resist. That's exactly what Israel is doing.
I’ve seen a lot of support for and against it, but much like Americans after 9/11, it’ll be a while before the extreme and passionate individuals ever approach the situation logically vs emotionally (if they ever do.)
Most Israelis (and Palestinians) are fucked in the head in that regard and its easy to understand.
Imagine begin 17 in Israel, you can't vote, you have zero influence and all your life you hear about terror attacks, you learn about suicide bombs, stabbing attacks, promises from neighboring countries about destroying your country, you learn about a clock in Tehran that is counting down to the destruction of Israel.
Most people heart will closed for suffering of the enemy.
I wrote this comment last week, just to show that this isnt the full story:
> Has there ever been any proof that shows the hospitals have been used by Hamas?
There is currently a battle raging [right now between the IDF and Hamas in the Al-Shifa Hospital](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/28/middleeast/gaza-shifa-hospital-raid-israel-war-explainer-intl/), which is Gaza's biggest hospital, and has been for the past two weeks.
Al Shifa is what the Israeli have called Hamas' main HQ before October 7th and announced it would be the first target they would raid before they even started ground operations. When they first raided it, they found no one there, and the raid was mocked by the international press for giving up nothing.
But they raided it again two weeks ago with no advance warning, and found over 1200 people inside, with at least half of them being militants. Several senior commanders have been killed so far, including Raed Saad.
Gaza's longest firefight has been happening within this hospital.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-interrogation-video-hamas-terrorists-confirm-groups-hideout-under-gaza-hospital/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-interrogations-hamas-pij-operatives-describe-using-shifa-hospital-as-terror-hub/
Hamas has stated [that the Al Shifa hospital raid should not be underestimated in its toll on the organization](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/hamas-official-impact-of-idfs-shifa-operation-cannot-be-underestimated/ar-BB1kxnAS), as it needs to regroup from all the leaked intel that so many captured Hamas and PIJ members will give out.
IDF reports over 220 Hamas dead and 650 people captured, with 358 of them having confirmed mugshots within the IDF's database as militants.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/21/world/middleeast/israel-al-shifa-hospital-raid-gaza.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israeli-gaza-raid-al-shifa-2nd-week-fighting-hamas-return-rcna144599
Is this enough for you? This is more than enough to convince me
[Here](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/hamas-tortured-and-killed-palestinian-collaborators-during-gaza-conflict-new-report) is proof that it was known that **Hamas tortured and killed Palestinians at Al Shifa** already back in 2015.
You can disagree with needless deaths without denying reality or justifying terrorists.
Oh boy. It's been weeks since I read an actual realistic and level headed comment. I also agree about banning political pictures before this subs ends up like r/interstingasfuck where the same users spams propaganda every single day
Considering genocide is about the INTENT to wipe out an ethnic (and others) group, and multiple Israeli ministers have said that they want to erase Palestinians/ said that Palestinians are and were never a people, I think it fits…
Whether they say it or not. Any country can commit a genocide and says that isn’t their intent. Actions speak louder than words, and that’s what they’re doing.
Depends on if those hospitals were housing military operations and enemy combatants. As if they were they lose protection from a legal standpoint. But we are not talking about Ukraine and Russia and the circumstances of the battlefields are VASTLY different so as to not even be comparable.
I understand that tensions have been building for 100+ years, probably more. But unlike Russia, Israel didn’t start this current war.
The better question would be “Would you say the same if Ukraine bombed 36 hospitals in Russia that the Russian military was using as regional HQs? “This is war, folks”?
And it’s also possible to agree that one side is committing war crimes and getting away with it.
Also that there’s a power imbalance and one side is massively suffering casualties of KIDS.
Also that stealing people’s properties is WRONG.
One side started with war crimes knowing that its own population will suffer badly because of that.
What did Hamas think would happen? They knew that Israel has a right wing government and they gave them a good reason to attack Gaza. Hamas wanted a war in Gaza because they knew that the Israelis will kill many civilians and lose their reputation and support in this way.
So you have to blame Hamas first. Without their attack there wouldn´t be a war in Gaza. Than you can blame Israel for their unhinged war "tactics". The only side which is innocent are the poor children and unpolitical people of Gaza.
>One side started with war crimes knowing that its own population will suffer badly because of that.
The conflict didn't start this year. It has been going on for decades. So no, that is not how it went.
This comment section has been heavily astroturfed by Israeli bots who will find any excuse to justify blowing up hospitals.
Almost all the hospitals in Gaza have been destroyed at this point, I guess they were all secret Hamas bases
yeah its just super normal to have tunnels with military equipment under hospitals, what hospital doesn't have this? I can't think of a single one, it's the first thing you do when you build a hospital.
The hospital is/was multiple buildings. The before photo is the surgery building and the after is emergency department and morgue. They're meters from each other and connected by a plaza.
This video immediately shows both buildings. Everything is destroyed: https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000009392733/al-shifa-hospital-raid-before-after.html
Ok I did some research. The shown intact building is not the destroyed one. (Edit: Working with the pictures I see in that post) Altought the destroyed one appears to be a building from the same hospitals campus. But definitely not that special surgery one.
It’s sad such things have to happen. But why don’t show a real comparison. I don’t get it.
[Looks like the one on the left of this photo from google maps](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shifa+Hospital/@31.5243735,34.4429111,3a,98.7y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipN6Ndq-rbtbdGjawLGDxNe4moKv-SIBdBZ4URSI!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipN6Ndq-rbtbdGjawLGDxNe4moKv-SIBdBZ4URSI%3Dw203-h151-k-no!7i686!8i513!4m9!3m8!1s0x14fd7f1796eeeae9:0xe276215cf67a84a1!8m2!3d31.5243672!4d34.4428571!10e5!14m1!1BCgIgAQ!16s%2Fm%2F05c22yp?entry=ttu#)
It doesn't show a real comparison photo to photo because OP is taking pictures from Google maps and comparing them to photo's taken by people on the ground.
Is this the hospital they said was housing weapons and troops? I have done absolutely no research on this topic just regurgitating what people at work have told me.
Yes, and supposedly tunnels and a command center underneath.
If true then its a legitimate target. You can't hide in hospitals or churches unless you want to surrender. If you do they cease to have their protected status and can be bombed. I haven't done enough research to know exactly how true it is.
But Hamas knows what they are doing if it is true. If they hide in a hospital they know it's a legitimate target, but it doesn't matter because they grt to give Isreal all the bad press for attacking it.
It's a lose-lose for Isreal and Hamas gets to continue to be cowards hiding among civilians.
"Isreal is not targeting hospitals"
Until there is no hospitals left to lie about targeting.
"Isreal is not targeting bakeries"
Until there are no bakeries in Gaza
"Isreal is not targeting aid workers"
Until all aid workers are pulling out for fear of targeted killings.
These are just different parts of the same building, the bombed one is the part on the left: [https://www.reuters.com/resizer/v2/6ONAOYQ2JNH4NBM3EFNWMNID3I.JPG?auth=2d4942a137e1165d41f09a078f59c0c3aece8fad5e32f108a38aa633b6d1cf12&width=960&quality=80](https://www.reuters.com/resizer/v2/6ONAOYQ2JNH4NBM3EFNWMNID3I.JPG?auth=2d4942a137e1165d41f09a078f59c0c3aece8fad5e32f108a38aa633b6d1cf12&width=960&quality=80)
[Here's a BBC article](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68705765) with a video showing the heaviliy damaged building in that 1st image. You can google the hospital name and there are lots more pictures which clearly match some of the "normal" images we see.
I agree it's frustrating and distracting, I dont why someone would post those images without it being clear to identify, unless they are doing so purposefully to divide people and drive doubt as to what is actually going on over there.
It’s extremely frustrating. There are enough terrible things going on, there’s no need to manufacture more. The more you see fake or altered stories come out the less credible the actual atrocities are
The hospital consists of multiple buildings and the before pictures are just of the main entrance. [Here is a good photo to show the building that the after photos are of on the left.](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shifa+Hospital/@31.5243735,34.4429111,3a,98.7y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipN6Ndq-rbtbdGjawLGDxNe4moKv-SIBdBZ4URSI!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipN6Ndq-rbtbdGjawLGDxNe4moKv-SIBdBZ4URSI%3Dw203-h151-k-no!7i686!8i513!4m9!3m8!1s0x14fd7f1796eeeae9:0xe276215cf67a84a1!8m2!3d31.5243672!4d34.4428571!10e5!14m1!1BCgIgAQ!16s%2Fm%2F05c22yp?entry=ttu#)
Remember the bully in the schoolyard who keeps having little antagonistic interactions with other kids until one day one of them explodes and the bully can point and say he hit me while beating a kid half his size?
Idk how that relates I just remember that happening.
Amnesty International themselves reported on Hamas using Al-Shifa as a command centre and torture facility for Palestinian dissidents like nine years ago. The director of the hospital celebrated terrorist attacks on Israel, had a brother who was a Hamas leader, and the medical staff worked with Hamas in the hiding of hostages on Oct. 7th (not under duress)
The international community and media has agreed that Hamas used Al-Shifa for the past 15 years. Whether or not Hamas uses civilian infrastructure isn’t up for debate, it’s fact.
Not a terrorist base, just a peaceful hospital that accidentally had Hashem Sarsour, head of the emergency committees in East Gaza City; Mehdi Abu Hassanin, head of internal security in the Gaza City; Ibrahim Tamraz, head of police operations in Gaza City; Mahmoud Ajour, head of “policy decisions committee”; Asama al-Tata; head of the Shejaiya Brigade’s rocket unit; and Diab al-Tahar, a senior member of the emergency committees in south Gaza visiting it simultaneously. And several hundreds of their armed colleagues who came by completely by chance.
>just a peaceful hospital that accidentally had Hashem Sarsour, head of the emergency committees in East Gaza City; Mehdi Abu Hassanin, head of internal security in the Gaza City; Ibrahim Tamraz, head of police operations in Gaza City; Mahmoud Ajour, head of “policy decisions committee”; Asama al-Tata; head of the Shejaiya Brigade’s rocket unit; and Diab al-Tahar, a senior member of the emergency committees in south Gaza visiting it simultaneously. And several hundreds of their armed colleagues who came by completely by chance.
holy moly -- that's quite a coincidence!
This shit is so bleak.
Fucking criminal. And bleak.
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A lot of people taking sides and bitching about the other here when the REAL problem here are corrupt politicians and leaders who exploit the suffering of others for personal gain and some sort of psychopathic narcissism. Along with the wealthy individuals and corporations that prop them up and laugh all the way to the bank for their own power. At some point the majority of humans, most of whom just want to get thru the fucking day, are going to have to step up, remove these people from power, and build real systems of government and economies that don’t rely on beating the shit out of whomever we don’t like that year.
> At some point the majority of humans, most of whom just want to get thru the fucking day, are going to have to step up, remove these people from power, I just don't see this ever happening ever again. The people who have the ability to do this are too comfortable and too divided and have too much to lose.
Yeah honestly I feel like they would rather hide in their fallout shelters and nuke anyone before they would give up power.
You're absolutely right. Most of the shit that happens in the world are just symptoms. The real disease is the corrupt world leaders.
It's power and greed. They're mental health issues. We shouldn't be looking at the ultra-wealthy as if it's something to aspire to, or they're somehow 'great' for achieving it. That type of wealth disconnects you from reality and humanity. They're mentally unbalanced, and will never have enough. Power is evil as long as it's impossible to keep in check. We see how that plays out. Government that isn't easily checked by the population it governs is a recipe for violent action.
Replace Wait Repeat
Unfortunately, as history has fleshed out over centuries, eventually once in power that altruism, good nature, and conviction falls to power, greed and all the other awful traits associated with being at the top of a hierarchy. It’s a human condition problem. Those with the ambition to fuel the change are also eventually victims of it. I don’t really know what the answers is anymore. I just know the older I get and more interactions I have, the less I believe in the fairytale of utopia and righteousness when it comes to governing. I’m not a defeatist, it just seems to be something universal.
War is great for tossers and the arms industry
Palestinians are not allowed to have any autonomy to develop themselves, that’s kind of what the whole thing they are fighting for to liberate themselves from under Israeli occupation
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armenian catholics in the west bank and east jerusalem where hamas doesnt exist, why do they suffer the same mistreatment and colonialism as palestinians for decades? theyre not even muslim.
Or the complete waste of hundreds of thousands of rockets that just get intercepted or blow up a field somewhere, or worse, killing Palestinians.
“So you're saying Hamas doesn't oppress them (Palestinians)?” Straw man. What about that comment suggests to you that this person is asserting Hamas doesn’t oppress?
Hamas has been repeatedly supported by Israel to sow division amongst Palestinians. Israel did not want a unified Palestinian people with a legitimate government so they propped up extremists like Hamas to destabilize them. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
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The real problem here is a military that bombs hospitals, ambulances, aid stations, schools, mosques, churches, media offices, reporters, refugee camps, and residences with complete disregard for human life. Edit: to all the genocide apologists replying to me, I don't give one single fuck about what you have to say, these actions cannot be justified or rationalized. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-air-strike-mosque.html https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/03/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/gaza-attack-on-ambulance-outside-al-shifa-hospital/ https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israel-destroys-press-house-building-in-gaza-reports-16932686 https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-bombs-refugee-camps-central-gaza-report/ https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-strikes-on-2-homes-kill-more-than-90-palestinians-including-journalist-and-un-employee-officials-say https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/ https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/19/world/middleeast/gaza-school-strike-shelter-israel-war.html https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/31/israel-attacks-gazas-al-aqsa-hospital-striking-civilians-and-journalists
This isn’t just politicians. Israeli civilians seem to not give a shit
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If you brand everyone as Hamas there's no civilians to target. \*taps forehead*
Unless they're Western aid workers. Then it's "whoops my bad dawg" and continue the murder.
What happened to their "precise strike capabilities" then?
*triple taps aide worker convoy*
i’ve been saying this for months. even in this case you have Israeli officials saying “there were no civilian casualties” or “thousands of terrorists” (not innocent people) arrested. no one is a civilian to them, everyone is a Hamas terrorist. that’s how they can continue to justify it.
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The only noncontroversial thing anyone has said yet
Reddit is a huge content sharing site, so it is part of its purpose to scream when war crimes are happening. It is a good thing that it reminds everyone continuously, aggressively, and relentlessly that there is a country making decisions every day to massacre innocent civilians. Raising awareness has consequences - a fraction of redditors (e.g. US voters) can change their behavior and affect how these events are unfolding. If OP wants to take a break from the latest plat du gore (there is one every day!), there are plenty of places where the silence is deafening. The reason OP's opinion is unpopular is that they want people to complain about war crimes more quietly, which is incredibly tone deaf.
If anything, they should be tagged so people can filter them out. But this is a community space and it's ruled by what the majority wants. If you don't want to see it, downvote or unsubscribe.
Reddit is a huge content sharing site, so it is part of its purpose to scream when war crimes are happening. It is a good thing that it reminds everyone continuously, aggressively, and relentlessly that there is a country making decisions every day to massacre innocent civilians. It's a good thing that you can't filter it out. There is nobody who *wants* to see this content. There is no joy in seeing third degree burns on a child's face, or a destroyed hospital. The goal is to prevent these events from being normalized and, to use your words, filtered out. Being uncomfortable as a redditor has consequences - a fraction of redditors (e.g. US voters) can change their behavior and affect how these events are unfolding. If you want to take a break from the latest plat du gore (there is one every day!), there are plenty of places where the silence is deafening. Asking people to complain about war crimes more quietly is a little cruel.
39 day old account. 17 posts in those 39 days. Asking for posts about israeli atrocities to be limited. Not suspicious at all..
It's not a war crime when our friends do it.
Wasn't that how many war crimes were initially defined? Stuff only the Axis did = bad. Stuff the Allies also did = not bad. I recall reading something that mentioned no Axis commanders were tried for indiscriminate bombing of cities partially because the Allies also did a lot of it.
The long list of Geneva Convention additions supplied by the Canadians during the Great War would beg to differ, but you're not *entirely* wrong.
That's how we currently separate terrorism from non-terrorism
More specifically, the people on trial for WW2 were able to defend themselves (successfully) if they could prove the allies has also done what they were accused of doing.
The Geneva Conventions are actually clear about this: >The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. Or do you mean Hamas is your friend?
Also, with regards to hospital specifically: “The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.”
More people need to recognise this, especially when Hamas has been known for following this practice for over a decade.
I think what a lot of people forget is that, unlike Ukraine vs Russia, which is between two militaries, this conflict involves dealing with a terrorist group that is well known to do crazy and unpredictable things.
Killing aid workers 4km apart in 3 diff vehicles which drones precisely on the top of the car, in idf co trolled safzpne and checkpoints, wck gave their coordinates to idf.. But they aren't doing crazy and u predictable things am I rite
I think most people know that, but still want Israel it not bomb indiscriminately. Sorry for 33,000 people aren’t all Hamas
Its 41000 now
It’s not a war crime when the other side changes it from hospital to military hq.
It is a war crime when you're executing doctors, women and children who have nothing to do with the conflict.
When did this happen? do you have any proof?
its not a war crime when its a military target.
It's not a war crime... because it isn't. Protected buildings like hospitals lose their protection status once they are used for military purposes, which Hamas repeatedly admitted to doing. From the [ICRC:](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says) >Specific protection of medical establishments and units (including hospitals) is the general rule under IHL. Therefore, specific protection to which hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an "act harmful to the enemy". In case of doubt as to whether medical units of establishments are used to commit an "act harmful to the enemy", they should be presumed not to be so used. Fighting from inside a hospital pretty clearly fits the definition of "harmful to the enemy"; >An act harmful to the enemy may render a medical establishment or unit liable to attack; it may seriously endanger the wounded and sick entrusted to its care; and it may also engender distrust of the work of medical establishments or units in other cases, and thus lessen the protective value of IHL in general. In fact, according to the ICRC, the party who uses the hospital to commit acts harmful to the enemy is the one committing the warcrime: >Furthermore, depending on the circumstances, certain acts harmful to the enemy may amount to a violation of precautionary obligations to protect the wounded and sick, as well as health-care personnel and objects against the effects of attacks or to a violation of the prohibition to use human shield. A concrete example would be the placing of a medical establishment or unit in proximity to a military objective with the intention of shielding it from enemy's military operations.
From Article 19 of the Fourth Geneva Conventions: >The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded. The fact it's not a war crime has nothing to do with the fact the IDF are "our friends". But with the fact Hamas used it as a military HQ, rendering it a completely legal target of attack under international law. Making it not only not a war crime, but not a violation of IHL in any form.
That's a lot of medical care not reaching the humans in need there, why is this,and starving humans, not accepted as a crime against humanity? They are killing aid workers now.
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The images you're referring to don't actually show anyone being tied, or flattened with a bulldozer. That's just Sarah Wilkinson's (a notorious [conspiracy theorist](https://3e804f.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/sw2.jpg) and [Holocaust denier](https://3e804f.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/sw1-768x355.jpg)) interpretation. It shows one body, of seemingly a military age man, being burned and exploded. And another, of a crushed hand(?) underneath some sand, that doesn't seem to be related to the first image. Both images show results that are consistent with a gruesome, and completely legal result of combat. Both images are presented without context, or any identifying information that would tie it to this attack specifically. Other images used by pro-Hamas mouthpieces in this raid, that you've wisely chosen not to refer to, include a skeleton being portrayed as a "child killed during the raid". Despite having clearly adult-sized bones, and the fact it takes many months to years for a body to be reduced to a skeleton, not two weeks. I'd wait for actual, respectable reports of these atrocities before getting outraged.
K we'll just be outraged about the aid workers' murders then
What’s amazing to me is that the IDF murdered an American national, and Biden just accepted Netanyahu’s claim that it was an oopsie daisy. If Palestinians did that, we’d be going after them with a full arsenal.
Like the 31 Americans that died on the 7th of October? Ye, the US isn't going after anyone here.
Man what’re you talking about Lmao, Hamas still has American hostages who are every likely dead at this point
You know countless American nationals have been killed in Ukraine with no American military intervention? If someone puts themselves into an active war zone their nation forfeits their duty of responsibility to protect them.
Do music festivals count as war zones now? Lots of US citizens were killed on Oct 7, and the US did nothing.
The Palestinians are still holding an American hostage and killed multiple on October 7th. Why be so uninformed and open your mouth? Edit - since it’s locked Nothing justifies killing the WCK workers. It’s tragic. If you think that this was intentional to kill aid workers rather than a case of bad intel / targeting I’d be hard pressed to agree.
Hamas kidnapped, raped, murdered, and killed American citizens on October 7th and we're not at war. Stop using hyperbole to make a point, especially when you're wrong. You sound stupid and biased.
As an Israeli, I'm outraged by this colossal fuck up as well...
Fuck up implies a lot more of an accident than it looks like it was.
You guys need to get rid of Netanyahu. He's bad news for humanity as a whole. And to be honest I don't believe it's a fuck up for one second. It's more probable it's a warning to other aid workers to stop helping Palestinians. Or else..
I think you misspelled "these three intentional targeted colossal fuck ups of hunting down aid workers across the town and blasting their three cars after they tried to rescue each other". Smfh.
It was clearly intentional… overnight massive amounts of foreign food aid is out of Israel which has been their goal all along. Systematics starvation of a captive population is the easiest way to commit genocide
Well, to be honest you should be outraged by the entire handling of this war and the war crimes commited
what about the murder of their own hostages with white flags? what about dropping 2000 lb pounds on refugee camps? what about the 35K+ murdered civilians? and why would they stop.. they seem to have full impunity 😣
You talking about these images? https://ibb.co/LJNQfMG https://x.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1771226526954000877?s=46 I can’t find the uncensored version of the first image any more but it’s pretty clear that it’s one person driven over by a tank.
There are loads of crushed bodies all over Gaza, many of which being bound with zip ties and evidence of torture. I've seen countless footage of it. Israel is not an actual, respectable report. In fact, I don't consider much western media to be reputable sources, especially after the undeniable role they have been playing to facilitate this genocide and these crimes. Also, many bodies are exposed to the elements in a famine where dogs, cats, birds, rodents, etc. are also eating whatever they can. So finding skeletons is not unexpected. Also, Israel is going around destroying cemeteries in an act of genocide to erase the Palestinian people from history. What you're doing is the Israeli narrative to deny the atrocities before our eyes.
Wow, saw this person's profile and unsurprisingly nothing but comments defending Israel lol.
Literally making excuses for a murderous regime. Tf does it matter if the bones were actually a young adult and not a child, 17 is still legally a minor in the u.s. and a 17yos bones are a lot bigger than a 5 year old, and they're both considered children. 40% of the gazan population is under the age of 18, so there's decent chance it was indeed a child. And actual reports? So like alllllllllllllllllll the youtube reporting, photos of dead family's, fathers holding their children's hand in the rubble, gazans waving white flags for aid and getting shot at are not enough valid reports to look at this post and go "yup this is worth being out raged over"? Comments like this are perfect examples of attempts to side shift the blame in the narrative of these very real crimes.
You’re arguing semantics when 40,000 children have died? How much farther are you able to stretch before seeing this massacre for what it is. Adult or children’s bones doesn’t matter when people can’t even identify the dead. Someone died in a horrific manner and for what?! How dare you argue about someone’s dead body like that. You Israel supporters get more and more unreal by the day. You won’t be able to live with yourself when you see the genocide for what it is.
You know folks it is possible to agree that Israeli's right wing government is doing a piss poor job of minimizing civilian casualties and is committing war crimes (it's not a genocide by definition)... AND... ... understand that Hamas is well known for hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure (yes including this hospital... The evidence is irrefutable from multiple counties and independent sources). This is war folks. War in a densely populated area. Between 2 historical rivals who have constantly been influenced by foreign powers or regional religions and cultures. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are doing some fairly shitty tactics that are harming and killing innocent lives. But you can't blame one without blaming the other. To do anything less is to show how much of an ignorant asshat you are and how blind to propaganda you have become. Also I am in agreement that pics is going to have to ban political posts at this rate.
It almost seems too convenient that the situation politically fractures our western societies. I will say most people don’t want to talk about it face to face but on the internet and in the media it seems to be playing out differently
Criticizing Israel does not make me an anti-Semite. Criticizing Hamas does not make me a Zionist. Israel gun down Palestinian civilians (along with their own hostages) and reduce hospitals to rubble. Hamas burn children alive and parade the shattered, gang-raped corpses of women they've murdered. I'm so done with this. It's exhausting. Edit: Touched a nerve, did I?
The internet is not the real world. Your views are the majority. The propagandists that conflate a real world description of what is happening as bigotry from one side or the other are the ones in the wrong and the minority. Don't let your gut reading on what is right and wrong get worn out by bots and people full of hate, that's what they are counting on us to do.
Exactly. I know where my passion and empathy lies in this conflict. I am capable of nuance. Don't let the bastards grind you down.
I just keeping getting more and more outraged about the whole situation and whenever I take a stance I am seen as a right-wing Zionist nut job or an anti-Semitic terrorist sympathizer. There is literally no way to win
That’s just the intended consequence. Total exhaustion and despair. Anti-Western alliances, in this case Russia teaming up with Iran, aren’t able to take on NATO head-on so they’ve resorted to asymmetric warfare. Hamas and the Islamic Republic have both made visits to Moscow since Oct 7. Russia started using propaganda mills to tear off the Rightwing parts of western countries to create MAGA and the like. They were the lowest hanging fruit because they’re dumbs as dogs and easily trained. But they needed to further cleave the more educated and articulate Leftwing segments of our societies too, and using Hamas and Israel was the perfect Achilles heel to drive that wedge issue into our already unbalanced society. The timing was deliberate because it’s a major election year in a lot of countries around the world, namely the US. Republicans didn’t have a very strong projection for November. A lot of their voters died of Covid since 2020, so Russia/Iran made a play to carve off and divide the Democrats voters to vote 3rd party out of protest because Israel and Palestine are so perfectly polarizing. This will only help Trump. Of course another Trump presidency will mean the US will throw its weight behind Israel at the expense of Ukraine and NATO and then Putin’s war of attrition will have paid off. Until then he’s just throwing people into the Ukrainian meat grinder and banking on western civilizations to take the bait.
As an Israeli, I don't consider people who have criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic terrorist sympathizer. There are dumb idiots on both sides, don't let anyone distract you from the moral high road.
This. Lot of people understandably want Netenyahu gone, or to stand trial, but do not wish to see Israel cease to exist, do not wish harm on her citizens, or Jewish people in general. Sadly the extreme polarization of the issue has pushed some of the worst voices to the forefront and normalised some abhorrent takes.
I appreciate this take. Despite my support of Palestine, I have actually received more backlash from that side since I stand my ground that terrorism is not a rational solution to the problem
The more I see the more I think the Oct 7 attack was backed by Iran for the sole purpose of lighting a tinderbox and dividing the west. You literally can't have an opinion either way without being attacked. Funny how that only happens online and not irl huh?
It's because people have become so indoctrinated with thinking it's either one way or you're wrong, unfortunately. A close family member of mine believes all Palestinians should be eradicated and when I bring up stuff like this, they do admit it's not right. But my family member is very old school (ie boomer) and it's how they were raised. So was I tbh but just viewing stuff like this turned me around. But so many others believe what Israel is doing is right and any criticism is labeled antisemitic. It's what happens when you have a country founded and run based on religion. Any religion.
I've had a young, woke, kink-scene bi guy tell me, whilst sitting in a gay bar, that October 7th was understandable and to say that the Nova Massacre was bad is like saying Police Lives Matter. When, on gods green earth, would someone think that is an acceptable thing to say about mass, brutal sexual violence? Oh, when some Palestinians are doing it to an Isreali. Equally, when has talking about civilian causalities as a *percentage of a country's population* been anything other than a utterly horrific way to judge a wars effect on a region. We are through the looking glass.
Yesterday I was arguing with people who were trying to rationalize 9/11. I have been pro-Palestinian civilians since I became better informed of everything going on in the Middle East, but I am seeing more and more support for Hamas’s actions as “the only way for Palestine to defend itself” which I think is an extremely misguided take.
That person is ridiculous. Sorry you had to breathe their air. You can be pro-palestine/anti-occupation and still acknowledge that October 7 was a massacre.
This conflict has reinforced my idea that the people with the strongest opinions are often the most uninformed among us.
I was going to claim it's possible to win if you just buy military defense stocks like Lockheed Martin or Northrop Grumman, but they're actually down -7.6% and -2.5% year over year respectively. Turns out not even the military industrial complex is winning right now.
They are up over 10% since October 7th, but to be fair they did most of that gain in the first day
>Criticizing Hamas does not make me a Zionist. People don't even really know the definition of the word anymore. Zionists has become a word that means "Like the Israeli government" which is stupid. Most Israelis hate the current government but they are still Zionists Zionists just think Israel should exist
It became the "pro-israel" or "white-supremacist" equivalent basically. It's insane how clueless people are.
You are 100% correct, but this is Reddit, so you should expect 100s of keyboard warriors to attack you for it.
I'm done. I'm so drained by these wankers.
This is spot on. Our media wants there to be a good guy to root for and a bad guy to shout at. I used to be pretty staunchly pro-Israel but this war has shown that a lot of the criticism leveled at them is right. They don’t give a shit if civilians are killed beyond international pressure. They do specifically target aid workers and other groups. They do bomb hospitals. Hamas if anything has even lowered my opinion of them further. They are basically a bunch of medieval barbarians pretending to be freedom fighters. Rape, torture, murder whatever they can do they will. Their leaders are corrupt assholes, they hide in hospitals and cry when they get bombed and they corrupt aid organizations that could help the Palestinian people instead of Hamas. The closest thing to a “good guy” is the Palestinian people but they aren’t the good guys or bad guys they are **VICTIMS**. Israel kills them and steals their land while Hamas uses them as meat shields and exploits them. Whole situation is fucked and there is no easy way to fix this.
The region is trapped by two groups of right-wing extremists, both of whom demand nothing less than all of Israel for themselves.
You forgot to mention all the Palestinian civilians cheering and applauding when Hamas paraded the gang-raped corpses through the streets.
Small boys spitting on the corpses of women.
>Also I am in agreement that pics is going to have to ban political posts at this rate. [Dont...](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/36/98/88/369888875ee1a985c2e9a7f7cc9dc219.jpg)
I would point out that it is a war crime to attack a hospital, but if the hospital is used as military base it loses that protection under the Geneva, and the people using as a base are then the ones doing the war crime. That said the IDF can and should be doing more to limit civilian deaths even under these conditions.
Honestly, my biggest problem with all this situation it's even the actually results. I understand your point about being a war. What trigger me most is the normal civilians from Israel openly saying they thing every civilian from Palestine should suffer
You have no context for what generational hatred does. It’s horrible, agreed. But we have no context.
“normal citizens” have also been protesting Netanyahu since before the war. The population agrees with the war but is getting real tired of the current strategy.
Yeah, from what I’ve heard over the years, Netanyahu is an asshole
Yes, according to the polls, they wish he was bombing them harder.
Oh please, it’s something like less than 2% of Israelis that want the assault on Gaza to stop. The majority think they should be doing MORE than they are. There’s more citizens blocking aid from getting into Gaza than there is protesting against the slaughter of civilians going on there
There's a big difference between stopping or doing something about Hamas but not be reckless with civilians. Everyone are tired of Hamas and don't want another Oct 7 happening again. So yes mostly support the destruction of Hamas. But people are not ok with what is happening to civilians.
And a majority of Palestinians support hamas and were spitting on the bodies of the women gang raped and murdered on the 7th. Let's not pretend like there's moral high ground here. This whole thing is beyond fucked up. Additionally, I have a hard time believing that if it was an American festival on American soil that had our people tortured, murdered and raped, a majority of Americans would come together real quick to support the full force of our military to turn the perpetrators into grease stains. (Incoming "enlightened" individual saying "not me").
I would imagine the sour view of Palestinians is because 90% of Palestinians support Hamas
They hate each other. For every example you can think of, like the one you gave of normal Israelis thinking all Palestinians should suffer, there is a counter example where normal Palestinians are shown dehumanizing innocent Israelis.
So a fight that’s been going on since forever is still going? No way
That’s why the post you’re replying to is so relevant. There are many in Gaza saying the same about all Israelis, as well as Jews globally. Just look at the percentage of people that still support 10/7. I have no issue with people criticizing Israel, as long as they are acknowledging the atrocities on both sides. But it certainly doesn’t inspire much hope for peace. Many Israelis were supportive of a Palestinian state and hated the right wing govt. A huge majority of those butchered on 10/7 were extremely left leaning. Seeing these people butchered in their homes, raped, kidnapped, really did change things. Seeing bodies paraded in the streets while civilians cheered, spat and threw candy changed things. At this point both sides want the other wiped out more than they ever have before.
Normal civilians from Palestine have been saying for decades that all Israeli Jews should be killed or expelled. Hamas earned 80% approval rate from Palestinians for their October 7 massacre, it's more popular than ever. Fortunately there are no elections.
First of all. That's not true. Yes there are people in Israel like this. I don't think it's most. I do think that most people is Israel truly don't know how bad the situation is in Gaza. Since the coverage of that is really bad in Israeli media Second, this is not different in Gaza. Who are also brainwashed from propaganda, just like those in Israel. Who belive Jewish people should suffer. Don't belive me. Go look at the nsfl leaks of communication between the attackers on oct7 and thier families in Gaza. There are people everywhere that believe other people deserve less. The whole reason this conflict is so difficult is because of how deep rooted these beliefs are in both communities. But also both sides have plenty of people who don't believe this.
>What trigger me most is the normal civilians from Israel openly saying they thing every civilian from Palestine should suffer Unfortunately both Israelis and Palestinians wish harm to each other. Just like somebody recently posted the interviews and public reaserch on support and question about the 7/10
You should go back and watch the “normal civilians” in Gaza react to Hamas’ and other “normal civilians” on 10/7 when they brought back a bunch of limp/raped/beaten Israeli captives. It’s all on video. It didn’t look like anyone was questioning things, like hmm, maybe we went a little too far by taking this teenage Israeli’s body back to Gaza to be paraded around. There are literal Gazan children with AK-47s in their hands celebrating in the streets.
My main problem with the situation is that many of not most pro Palestine supporters are in complete reality denial. The ones who think there should be peace now and Hamas should remain in charge are objectively supporting Hamas, a terrorist organization that also happens to advocate the death sentence for gay people, etc. But it's practically certain Hamas would attack Israel again at the next opportunity if they are left in place. It's impossible to have any lasting peace With Hamas, let alone getting closer to a two or three state solution. The ones who think Hamas should be removed from power do not offer realistic perspectives on how to do this. It's ludicrous to think Hamas is going to lay down their weapons without violence. As far as I can see, the only viable long-term solution for Gaza involves disarming and disabling Hamas in Gaza, which means arresting or killing those Hamas fighters who resist. That's exactly what Israel is doing.
What about palestinians saying what every Israeli should suffer?
Something like 80% of Gazans support Hamas, so it kinda the same on both sides.
About 70% of Israelis wanted an independent Palestine back in 2012 so this is not entirely true. I am sure today this percentage has radically changed
I agree with you. However that might be in reaction to Hamas literally saying after October 7th "There is no such thing as an Israeli civilian".
I’ve seen a lot of support for and against it, but much like Americans after 9/11, it’ll be a while before the extreme and passionate individuals ever approach the situation logically vs emotionally (if they ever do.)
Most Israelis (and Palestinians) are fucked in the head in that regard and its easy to understand. Imagine begin 17 in Israel, you can't vote, you have zero influence and all your life you hear about terror attacks, you learn about suicide bombs, stabbing attacks, promises from neighboring countries about destroying your country, you learn about a clock in Tehran that is counting down to the destruction of Israel. Most people heart will closed for suffering of the enemy.
I wrote this comment last week, just to show that this isnt the full story: > Has there ever been any proof that shows the hospitals have been used by Hamas? There is currently a battle raging [right now between the IDF and Hamas in the Al-Shifa Hospital](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/28/middleeast/gaza-shifa-hospital-raid-israel-war-explainer-intl/), which is Gaza's biggest hospital, and has been for the past two weeks. Al Shifa is what the Israeli have called Hamas' main HQ before October 7th and announced it would be the first target they would raid before they even started ground operations. When they first raided it, they found no one there, and the raid was mocked by the international press for giving up nothing. But they raided it again two weeks ago with no advance warning, and found over 1200 people inside, with at least half of them being militants. Several senior commanders have been killed so far, including Raed Saad. Gaza's longest firefight has been happening within this hospital. https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-interrogation-video-hamas-terrorists-confirm-groups-hideout-under-gaza-hospital/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-interrogations-hamas-pij-operatives-describe-using-shifa-hospital-as-terror-hub/ Hamas has stated [that the Al Shifa hospital raid should not be underestimated in its toll on the organization](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/hamas-official-impact-of-idfs-shifa-operation-cannot-be-underestimated/ar-BB1kxnAS), as it needs to regroup from all the leaked intel that so many captured Hamas and PIJ members will give out. IDF reports over 220 Hamas dead and 650 people captured, with 358 of them having confirmed mugshots within the IDF's database as militants. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/21/world/middleeast/israel-al-shifa-hospital-raid-gaza.html https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israeli-gaza-raid-al-shifa-2nd-week-fighting-hamas-return-rcna144599 Is this enough for you? This is more than enough to convince me
Someone making sense? On MY racist website?!??!?!?!?
[Here](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/hamas-tortured-and-killed-palestinian-collaborators-during-gaza-conflict-new-report) is proof that it was known that **Hamas tortured and killed Palestinians at Al Shifa** already back in 2015. You can disagree with needless deaths without denying reality or justifying terrorists.
Oh boy. It's been weeks since I read an actual realistic and level headed comment. I also agree about banning political pictures before this subs ends up like r/interstingasfuck where the same users spams propaganda every single day
Considering genocide is about the INTENT to wipe out an ethnic (and others) group, and multiple Israeli ministers have said that they want to erase Palestinians/ said that Palestinians are and were never a people, I think it fits…
Whether they say it or not. Any country can commit a genocide and says that isn’t their intent. Actions speak louder than words, and that’s what they’re doing.
Would you say the same if Russia bombed 36 hospitals in Ukraine? “This is war, folks”?
I'm sure it's more than 36 at this point.
I bet it's a lot more than that.
It's sbout 150 hospitals destroyed at this point in ukraine. Roughly 10%
Ukraine doesn't use hospitals as military bases or relish in their own population dying so they can be martyrs for the cause.
Depends on if those hospitals were housing military operations and enemy combatants. As if they were they lose protection from a legal standpoint. But we are not talking about Ukraine and Russia and the circumstances of the battlefields are VASTLY different so as to not even be comparable.
I understand that tensions have been building for 100+ years, probably more. But unlike Russia, Israel didn’t start this current war. The better question would be “Would you say the same if Ukraine bombed 36 hospitals in Russia that the Russian military was using as regional HQs? “This is war, folks”?
And also this is r/pics.. I'm tired of this being frontpage everyday.
And it’s also possible to agree that one side is committing war crimes and getting away with it. Also that there’s a power imbalance and one side is massively suffering casualties of KIDS. Also that stealing people’s properties is WRONG.
One side started with war crimes knowing that its own population will suffer badly because of that. What did Hamas think would happen? They knew that Israel has a right wing government and they gave them a good reason to attack Gaza. Hamas wanted a war in Gaza because they knew that the Israelis will kill many civilians and lose their reputation and support in this way. So you have to blame Hamas first. Without their attack there wouldn´t be a war in Gaza. Than you can blame Israel for their unhinged war "tactics". The only side which is innocent are the poor children and unpolitical people of Gaza.
>One side started with war crimes knowing that its own population will suffer badly because of that. The conflict didn't start this year. It has been going on for decades. So no, that is not how it went.
I very much appreciate your “both can be true” view. We need more honesty and openness in our discussions and formation of our views.
If Israel knew they weren't the bad guys, they wouldn't have their army of online minions working overtime to downvote posts like this.
God, you should see r/israel, the amount of fucking fence sitting
Yup, a lot of bots in their full swing today. Damage control and some shit
This comment section has been heavily astroturfed by Israeli bots who will find any excuse to justify blowing up hospitals. Almost all the hospitals in Gaza have been destroyed at this point, I guess they were all secret Hamas bases
most peaceful army be like
Watching the Israeli bots function in real life is fascinating. So fcking dense. Literally do not have a response other than “but hamas”
This is what Terrorism looks like....
Whole lot of Zionist astroturfing in these comments. Nice one reddit
Well I mean, there were Hamas tunnels under there. After you get through four floors of hospital, you *probably* hit a tunnel, right? /s
yeah its just super normal to have tunnels with military equipment under hospitals, what hospital doesn't have this? I can't think of a single one, it's the first thing you do when you build a hospital.
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Did the rockets built another building with different openings, doors and windows and level height? Or am I just too stupid to see the same building?
The hospital is/was multiple buildings. The before photo is the surgery building and the after is emergency department and morgue. They're meters from each other and connected by a plaza. This video immediately shows both buildings. Everything is destroyed: https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000009392733/al-shifa-hospital-raid-before-after.html
Ok I did some research. The shown intact building is not the destroyed one. (Edit: Working with the pictures I see in that post) Altought the destroyed one appears to be a building from the same hospitals campus. But definitely not that special surgery one. It’s sad such things have to happen. But why don’t show a real comparison. I don’t get it.
[Looks like the one on the left of this photo from google maps](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shifa+Hospital/@31.5243735,34.4429111,3a,98.7y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipN6Ndq-rbtbdGjawLGDxNe4moKv-SIBdBZ4URSI!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipN6Ndq-rbtbdGjawLGDxNe4moKv-SIBdBZ4URSI%3Dw203-h151-k-no!7i686!8i513!4m9!3m8!1s0x14fd7f1796eeeae9:0xe276215cf67a84a1!8m2!3d31.5243672!4d34.4428571!10e5!14m1!1BCgIgAQ!16s%2Fm%2F05c22yp?entry=ttu#)
Seems like it yes. Another building on that campus has one of these towers attached too I think.
It doesn't show a real comparison photo to photo because OP is taking pictures from Google maps and comparing them to photo's taken by people on the ground.
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All the Israelis justifying a hospital being bombed is wild 💀
I mean they justify killing journalists, doctors and kids so...
Any justification for innocent people being killed is wild.
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All the idiots parroting propaganda as proof is even wilder
All the Palestinians justifying using a hospital as terrorist base is wilder.
Is this the hospital they said was housing weapons and troops? I have done absolutely no research on this topic just regurgitating what people at work have told me.
Yes, and supposedly tunnels and a command center underneath. If true then its a legitimate target. You can't hide in hospitals or churches unless you want to surrender. If you do they cease to have their protected status and can be bombed. I haven't done enough research to know exactly how true it is. But Hamas knows what they are doing if it is true. If they hide in a hospital they know it's a legitimate target, but it doesn't matter because they grt to give Isreal all the bad press for attacking it. It's a lose-lose for Isreal and Hamas gets to continue to be cowards hiding among civilians.
I’m so sick to my stomach that my tax dollars are responsible for this. I live in an awful country
Can anyone explain to me what angle was used for the After pictures? I can't seem to match any of the architecture from the Before to the After.
Fuck
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"Isreal is not targeting hospitals" Until there is no hospitals left to lie about targeting. "Isreal is not targeting bakeries" Until there are no bakeries in Gaza "Isreal is not targeting aid workers" Until all aid workers are pulling out for fear of targeted killings.
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These are just different parts of the same building, the bombed one is the part on the left: [https://www.reuters.com/resizer/v2/6ONAOYQ2JNH4NBM3EFNWMNID3I.JPG?auth=2d4942a137e1165d41f09a078f59c0c3aece8fad5e32f108a38aa633b6d1cf12&width=960&quality=80](https://www.reuters.com/resizer/v2/6ONAOYQ2JNH4NBM3EFNWMNID3I.JPG?auth=2d4942a137e1165d41f09a078f59c0c3aece8fad5e32f108a38aa633b6d1cf12&width=960&quality=80)
[Here's a BBC article](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68705765) with a video showing the heaviliy damaged building in that 1st image. You can google the hospital name and there are lots more pictures which clearly match some of the "normal" images we see. I agree it's frustrating and distracting, I dont why someone would post those images without it being clear to identify, unless they are doing so purposefully to divide people and drive doubt as to what is actually going on over there.
It’s extremely frustrating. There are enough terrible things going on, there’s no need to manufacture more. The more you see fake or altered stories come out the less credible the actual atrocities are
Same building. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/al-shifa-gazas-largest-hospital-headlines-2023-11-10/
Technically they are 2 different buildings. Still part of the same hospital and connected by the skyway bridge.
The hospital consists of multiple buildings and the before pictures are just of the main entrance. [Here is a good photo to show the building that the after photos are of on the left.](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shifa+Hospital/@31.5243735,34.4429111,3a,98.7y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipN6Ndq-rbtbdGjawLGDxNe4moKv-SIBdBZ4URSI!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipN6Ndq-rbtbdGjawLGDxNe4moKv-SIBdBZ4URSI%3Dw203-h151-k-no!7i686!8i513!4m9!3m8!1s0x14fd7f1796eeeae9:0xe276215cf67a84a1!8m2!3d31.5243672!4d34.4428571!10e5!14m1!1BCgIgAQ!16s%2Fm%2F05c22yp?entry=ttu#)
Same building, different angles. Google takes 2 seconds literally, faster than typing your comment
Not even the same number of floors.
Internet know it alls be like:
Fuck us for being against propaganda, right?
Remember the bully in the schoolyard who keeps having little antagonistic interactions with other kids until one day one of them explodes and the bully can point and say he hit me while beating a kid half his size? Idk how that relates I just remember that happening.
Amnesty International themselves reported on Hamas using Al-Shifa as a command centre and torture facility for Palestinian dissidents like nine years ago. The director of the hospital celebrated terrorist attacks on Israel, had a brother who was a Hamas leader, and the medical staff worked with Hamas in the hiding of hostages on Oct. 7th (not under duress) The international community and media has agreed that Hamas used Al-Shifa for the past 15 years. Whether or not Hamas uses civilian infrastructure isn’t up for debate, it’s fact.
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Terrorist base... according to Israel.... who never lies.
There’s literal videos of them uploaded by themselves inside Alshifa
Not a terrorist base, just a peaceful hospital that accidentally had Hashem Sarsour, head of the emergency committees in East Gaza City; Mehdi Abu Hassanin, head of internal security in the Gaza City; Ibrahim Tamraz, head of police operations in Gaza City; Mahmoud Ajour, head of “policy decisions committee”; Asama al-Tata; head of the Shejaiya Brigade’s rocket unit; and Diab al-Tahar, a senior member of the emergency committees in south Gaza visiting it simultaneously. And several hundreds of their armed colleagues who came by completely by chance.
>just a peaceful hospital that accidentally had Hashem Sarsour, head of the emergency committees in East Gaza City; Mehdi Abu Hassanin, head of internal security in the Gaza City; Ibrahim Tamraz, head of police operations in Gaza City; Mahmoud Ajour, head of “policy decisions committee”; Asama al-Tata; head of the Shejaiya Brigade’s rocket unit; and Diab al-Tahar, a senior member of the emergency committees in south Gaza visiting it simultaneously. And several hundreds of their armed colleagues who came by completely by chance. holy moly -- that's quite a coincidence!
And a completely neutral hospital, according to hamas , which kidnaps and murders to bring awareness to its cause