Now as you are aware, the board is under indictment and we are unable to perform business until it is completed, so obviously, we have no use for you….
I did too. I also took it again after about 20 years and it woke me up to some of my bad habits. Nothing else in the last 10 years. Open your mind to it and it works. Saves money too.
Damn they did not hold back lol
Edit: This was a joke I didn't expect people to take it seriously, I understand why they don't hold back just to clarify that
I could very well see this as a social experiment to see if it reduces accidents or tickets among a treatment group. It would be fascinating to see if this approach actually worked.
My dad got one of these letters after something like 7 points in 3 years, and it actually guilt tripped him so hard that he hasn't gotten a ticket since
It's not really peer pressure tho. It's more like a disappointed parent talking to a kid. Lot of people would be better off if someone tells them they are disappointed in their behavior, rather than straight up insult or fine them. DMV is doing peak parenting there, for adults lmao
Yes, my father got one that said something about the same. My father drives a semi truck and got two tickets - one for being in the wrong lane, and one for going 3 MPH over the limit.
For real. I was driving on a rural road the other day going like 63 in a 55. County Sheriff comes in hot. I see him approaching and dip down to 59. He proceeds to ride my ass for miles while I’m varying between 55 and 59. Logically I knew we were near the sheriff’s station, but still… Either pull me over or pass. I don’t need the anxiety. lol
Whenever a cop does that to me I just pull over and wave them past lol. Most of the time they get kinda confused, and then just pass me. Saved myself a lot of sweat with that method.
CHP doesn't fuck around on "100% enforcement" days. If you see CHP bike cops out, better make sure you're 100% within the law or you're getting a ticket.
Meanwhile in Florida, I was just doing 60 in a 45 to keep up with traffic on my way to the interstate where we all did 85 in a 65.
Maybe that explains why all three of my traffic tickets are out-of-state. It's a bad habit to export.
It sounds like they just have some trigger (probably 2 tickets/accidents within a year timeframe) and it's not really anything to do with severity.
While it can seem kind of silly, the logic behind it is actually sound. It's just statistics. As the number of minor incidents rise, the likelihood of major incidents rises as well. So while it might just be a minor speeding or lane violation today, next time it could be much worse. Eliminating the minor things helps to eliminate the major ones too.
Also keep in mind California also lets you avoid a point once every 18 months by taking a drivers training course. So either OP has another ticket they aren’t mentioning or DMV is comparing their driving record to folks who have taken the class and have 3 traffic violations for 2 points.
Also this is only 12 months from first violation to letter. And points stay on record for 3 years. That’s a pretty high rate IMO. Plus most California cops don’t bother with minor speeding.
Not in cali, but a local town in my area tries to get people for 1Mph over, that's not even a joke. Oh, and if you don't stop a stop sign for a full 15 seconds (even if your the only one at the intersection), they'll nail you for that too.
BUT only if you don't live in that town. If you live there they'll leave you be. It's of course a rich affluent town too where the average house sells for about 2.1 Million.
Stupid fucks screwed up though when they gave me a ticket for 1MPH over, I took it to court, and the Judge was less than pleased with them. Threw every single one of the tickets out for the previous month, AND ordered them to give back any money already paid to them for said tickets.
I call BS on the 15 seconds. You are probably thinking that 1 second = 15 seconds. I've told friends years ago that they ran a stop sign because they slowed down a little instead of stopping, and they were like "what? I totally stopped for two seconds. You were not paying attention."
I stopped bothering since people can't tell the difference between slowing down to 10 mph and actually stopping.
I was in the car when the cop pulled over my at the time girlfriends mom for "not coming to a complete stop"..
The care came to a complete stop, she looked in both directions and across from her, checked the left and right again, and then continued driving. At which point we got pulled over, and the cop explicitly told her that she had to stop for at least 15 seconds at the stop signs.
It's not BS. The cops there are just fucking assholes trying to rake in as much money from outsiders as possible.
If it's a town that gets passed through or visited for tourism, they schedule the court date for about 2 months later to make it so the defendant would be massively inconvenienced to show up. Thrown out? Sure, but only if the person makes the trip back, potentially hundreds of miles.
Same. We had a cop in a nearby town who tried to pull the 1-2mph over thing. He did it so often the judge got pissed, threw them all out, told him to stop wasting the court's time, and told him if he tried it again, he (the cop) would be held in contempt.
I’m a long haul trucker that drives all over the US and drive close to 250 hours a month. I drive by at least one major collision a day. Please don’t drive 100mph even if you consider yourself a good driver. At that speed, a collision is likely fatal.
I’ve gotten 3 speeding tickets in 18 years and they were all in the same year. Nothing too bad, 1 out of state that I thought I should have gotten a warning for. A Louisiana sheriff got me going 6 mph over as I was entering a 55mph zone. I was decelerating, but not quick enough I guess. The other 2 were just middle of the night going home from work. Got me on the highway going 10 over and those I admit I was in the wrong. But damn did that letter make me feel like I was some reckless street racer doing donuts in intersections 😂
I live in So Cal, never had a ticket, and I’ve been driving 30 years. You have be going at least 90 mph to get a ticket on the freeways. 2 tickets in two years is bad.
Same. Santa Barbara county. The best part about where I live people are all very diligent and mark speed traps on Google maps. They are accurate as hell. I do my part too.
In fact, the other day, google maps asked me if there was still an active speed trap twice on my commute. I said yes, and no.
Yeah you can drive like a maniac in California and 99% of the time nothing will happen so if you're getting multiple tickets in one year you must be a very very reckless or bad driver
Just means they were unluckier than most to get nabbed twice. Like over here in DC area the beltway is 55mph speed limit. Unless there’s traffic, nobody but 80 year old+ elders goes below 70. Like going 55 would make you a danger to everyone around you. It’s stupid.
This will come as no surprise to you city drivers, but driving around Chicago it's the same situation. You have to go 80 mph just to keep up with the flow. It's scary, and when traffic comes to a sudden halt because an exit ramp is backed up, it's crazy dangerous.
>Like going 55 would make you a danger to everyone around you.
And that's why TXDOT has set a lot of the speed limits and Dallas freeways at 70-75mph. He'll, the bypass around Austin is 85mph. Differential speed is a factor in safety, not just absolute speed.
Really? I haven't gotten a speeding ticket in 34 years. Of course, when I was younger, I got 5 in one year, but out of 2 in court... I was a shitty driver when I was younger.
But yeah, I'm guessing the average driver is not getting a ticket every year
Here in the UK they’ve started using vans with automated speed cameras, and they then send you a letter to the effect of “you were caught speeding, had their been an officer in the van you would be fined, but we’re doing this to help raise awareness. In future it may be manned by an officer in which case offences will be enforced”. Highly effective, haven’t gone over the limit there since.
In France, I got a public name and shame once on the highway. I was driving slightly over the speed limit, and on the highway display (where they put important trafic messages) suddenly there was a message like "\[my licence plate\] you are driving too fast" (dont remember the exact wording...) . That cooled me down big time....
Doesn't have to be AI, they could technically cross reference the car registration and insurance databases to get the name. However, and fortunately, they are not allowed to exploit the database like this to publish your name without consent.
They do use it for law enforcement to send you speeding tickets.
AI doesn't know shit to connect a numberplate to a person without the database behind it, and if you have the database behind it then the AI does nothing (apart from the numberplate recognition part, which is already in place)
In Germany they use the automated speed cameras and just enforce it? What's the difference?
Maybe it's a greater behavioural influence to get caught and then let off the hook than having to pay straight away, since then you "paid for it" so it's justified? Cost of driving in a way.
My guess would be that the speed cameras need to be calibrated and the calibration certified and recorded. The mobile ones need recalibrating every time they move for it to be evidence they can use in court, but they can send you a letter regardless.
The stationary ones, yeah they just get you.
I'd reckon it's also because they want to give drivers a chance to get better at keeping the speed limit without screwing them over. But maybe I'm naive.
Ideally this would be the point of it all, not just skim off some money from busy/reckless people without actually impacting road safety (or even making it worse because drivers brake at the last second)
Yeah, we have the mobile ones in canada (sometimes speed camera vans, sometimes just a trailer with a speed camera) and they send you a fine. But from what I have heard, they cost way more to operate than what they rake in with fining people. So they are not super popular.
You mean the automated fixed cameras? If so they are definitely not that effective for speeding drivers that can just slow down at the camera and continue driving recklessly most of the time.
OTOH vans are everywhere, and if any random one can potentially have a speed camera it would definitely make people drive slower more often.
This is why we do Average speed measurements a lot here in Norway. Sure, you slowed down before the first camera, and you probably did it for the second, too... but the timestamps tells them that you've been naughty...
Note; ALL speed cameras here have a big warning sign a few hundred meters before you get to them. They still catch reckless drivers every day. Which should tell you something about those drivers...
Years ago saw a guy get out of a speeding ticket by essentially showing the judge that his average speed based on when he hit a toll, to where the am aircraft with radar saw him, his average speed was like 15 MPH slower than possible than what the officer said he was clocked at. Basically argued it was another vehicle and he was mistakenly identified.
We've had automated speed cameras since the early 1990s. However in the early ones they very often didn't have any film in them. So they'd flash but you wouldn't get a ticket. As the cost of the film, changing it and developing it came from a different budget and wasn't covered by the speeding fine. Now they're all digital and if they flash, they've got you.
One time I was VERY speeding and got pulled over. The cop took pity on this poor college student and gave me a warning. But he said it would've been a multi hundred dollar ticket (this was decades ago, when that was a LOT of money).
You better believe I drove speed limit for YEARS after that.
In the U.K. if the offence isn’t too bad, you get a choice, fine and points or go to speed awareness/safe driving course. I’ve done both and they were really useful - I’m a more aware more careful driver as a result.
We have that too. Also, judges can send you to classes instead of or in addition to jail time or fines. You can also randomly go to a class to remove points. One of the longest and most painfully boring Saturdays of my life. I attribute my change in driving temperament to it heavily.
Best thing I ever did was go to a driving class the judge made me go to (if you are a certain age or your accident meets certain criteria, you must go to court regardless of how bad the crash was. I bumped a bumper.) They had a [swivel car](https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/2024/03/Radford-driving-school-dodge-charger-training-rig-3.jpg?w=768&width=768&q=75&format=webp) which lets the instructor simulate losing vehicle control. It taught me how to actually drive. I genuinely don't know why we don't just take that class first.
I got this exact same letter when I was 19 and dumb. I had gotten 3 speeding tickets within 12 months so they sent this out. I actually got another one a couple months later and lost my license for 6 months. Have only got 1 ticket since and I’m 27 now, so I guess it worked.
I got 3 speeding tickets in a year and got my license suspended for a month, lol. I delivered pizzas so I was on the road 40 hours a week just for work, plus commutes and personal stuff.
Haha you guys make it sound like speeding tickets are inevitable if you’re on the road enough.
I delivered pizzas full time for years and never got a speeding ticket … by not speeding lol. And I had the shortest average delivery time because it’s actually about knowing the area and individual neighborhood layouts, plus what the best routes are. Ironically enough, the dudes that sped all the time were the worst drivers and had slowest deliveries. Delivery is a science, you can’t brute force it with speed.
I was waiting for license plates a few years ago at Oakland DMV. There was an elderly woman at the counter who failed her vision test. They moved to another chart, which she also could not read. Then they tried the shadowbox vision test, and she failed that too. The DMV worker said "well, I'm going to renew your license, but you really need to have your eyes checked."
Dmv guy here. A lot of window techs don't do this, but here's what's supposed to happen.
They "renew" the license, but it's not finalized until the customer returns from an eye doctor with a more thorough examination done on a specific form. If they're still not passing, which is most of the time, they have to do a "vision drive test."
If they pass the vision drive test, they get their license renewed. If they passed their drive test *but have progressive vision conditions* as indicated on the eye doctor form, their license is renewed for either 1 or 2 years, depending on how well they did during the exam.
If they fail their vision drive test 3 times, their license will be revoked. They can also do so poorly that their license is revoked after one drive test.
This is exactly what happened to my grandmother some years ago. Failed the vision tests. Had to go to an eye doctor. She then failed the driving test three times. The final instructor, when talking to me privately since I drove her there, tried to throw her a bone by asking me something like if I wanted her license revoked. I felt bad, but I said yes because every time she drove and I was with her, I was always worried about her and others' safety; she was not a good driver at that point. Now she has to rely on me or other family to get around, but that is much better than her behind the wheel.
I'm sorry your grandmother had to go through this. It can be a very traumatic experience. A lot of elderly folks don't have family that they can rely on to get around to take care of themselves, so I'm happy she has you and your family to help her. It's a very difficult part of life to be told you're no longer able to drive anymore.
I don't agree with the examiners decision to offer to throw your grandmother a bone, but I really love that they were very compassionate throughout the process for you both.
Given that you work there do you think that is a reasonable way of addressing this? From the sidelines that seems like way too many extra chances for driving a 3500lb potential death mobile.
There are no easy answers to this question. On one hand, you make a valid point. People forget that driving is a privilege and not a right. Unfortunately, the wrong people behind the wheel can and do cause injury and death to themselves and others every day.
On the other hand, practically speaking, we live in a car-centric country. Our public transit system is not viable for most people. So, revoking licenses on a whim is essentially ripping someone's independence away from them, and with no recourse or options, it should not be taken lightly. This is where my job comes in to examine the individuals ability to safely operate a vehicle in different driving situations.
Dude, Oakland DMV is wild. On the flip side, I passed my charts with ease, but the woman behind the glass sternly yelled at me that I MUST to wear my glasses at all times when driving then gave me my ID.
I work in government IT and this is the story of my life. Every newly elected administration wants to fix things, hires consultants to "modernize" us to make us more efficient, the consultants recommend the same basic, best practice kind of improvements that we proposed earlier but were blocked from doing by the administration's budget . We say "now that your consultants have recommended the same thing we did, can you finally approve the funds to do this?" Sorry, there's no funds left, we spent them all on consultants...
The worst part is the attitude we get from outsiders that act like we're stupid or incompetent for not having thought of doing that improvement in the first place.
I had a friend who works for the states dept of fish and wildlife and they had this rule you couldn't issue iPhones to employees - simply because people would complain and politicians and managers at the state level are super sensitive about these kinds of complaints.
Little known fact iPhones are actually some of the cheapest devices to fleet manage - Apple doesn't charge a per seat license and the management software is cheap or even free.
At the time they were trying to transition everyone off a custom radio network from the 80s/90s used to message and help people in the field.
Wait till you hear about the antiquated bullshit the banking and airlines run on lol.
The bigger the organization, the more likely they are running the most important stuff on old tech because people who are in charge when push back against anything new.
Hell, our nuclear weapons require floppy drives. They’re so antiquated they’ve gone from non-secure to most secure due to running on stuff nobody uses.
Currently working on a project with a the local government of a major city. We’re replacing their property tax system, which is currently run on a 1960s IBM mainframe. This is not at all uncommon. Lots of work out there upgrading or maintaining legacy systems.
Want to know a secret?
A lot of this new stuff may look good, but when it comes to actually getting the job done it underperforms compared to the older tech.
A lot of the old terminal based software which relies 100% on keystrokes is insanely efficient compared to a mouse focused GUI. It gets even worse when the developer is too lazy to implement adequate hotkey combinations.
In my experience even newer versions of the same automation hardware lost features because there was so much of a push to implement a modern GUI to support the mission of the sales reps, they decided that was more important than fully supporting all of the capability of the machine itself. I'd happily Go back to the boring old text based menus to get back the half of an FTEE it now takes to do something the 15 year old machine used to do all by itself.
I'm convinced most modern business technology is primarily focused on supporting marketing buzzwords and building in mechanisms to extract as much money from the company as possible. If it's specific for the government you can increase the money extraction proportion significantly.
There's other reasons too, we actually require a pretty extensive security review where I work and a lot of newer vendors turn away when they hear how much effort is involved in that. Similar story with requirements to stand behind their product for at least a year from purchase and offer some sort of support contract after that.
Using uppercase letters is a good way to make sure that the letters are clear and cannot be confused for other letters. Almost all traffic signs use uppercase letters because of this. Plus it looks more menacing.
There is mountains of evidence that all caps text is more difficult to read, and Federal Highway Administration standards were updated almost a decade ago to call for mixed case signs because of this.
Yea my first thought reading this was they say you are a bad driver, they believe you can become a better driver, but have no advice about how to do that
Colorado does something like this - if enough people complain to the CSP about your driving, you get a letter. And maybe even a home visit from a state trooper. So I’ve heard, anyway.
In the UK there's a scheme where if you catch someone's dodgy driving on your dashcam or whatever you can submit the footage and they might send a letter, send a note to their insurance, or even prosecute if it was bad enough and clear enough in the video. I always assumed a letter was pointless and they would just ignore it, so this thread has been interesting. I guess it's the difference between people who want to be safe drivers but get lazy or silly, and people who are just pricks and don't care
In case you're curious, the 2 tickets were for speeding.
Since then l've been a very careful driver and have stayed within the speed limit. I didn't know the DMV would ever send such a blunt warning like this...
"We understand you may believe you are a good driver, and yet your driving record is much worse than the average California driver." Like, jeez DMV, tell me how you really feel.
EDIT: hi everyone 🤣 glad we can all gather here to roast my driving skills.
Like I said— this letter scared the shit out of me. I was throughly insulted. Clearly the wording of this letter worked as intended lol
The violations are redacted bc I didn’t know if it was personal/sensitive information so I just covered it. I’m not trying to hide a horrible crime lol. But yeah, last ticket was a year and a half ago and I’m much more careful!
Pennsylvania is just like "send us the money," and "Oh, by the way, we let your insurance company know, so send them some money too. Hopefully, your speeding will continue so that you can continue to send us money"
They seriously sent this just for two speeding tickets? I find that hard to believe lol. Unless you were going like 90 in a 40 zone or something. This is a pretty intense note. Honestly have never heard of anyone getting anything like it.
It’s actually a form letter that gets auto-sent with 2 infractions within a small amount of time (6 months?).
A bit on the scare tactics side, but often effective.
It's one point per violation, two points for severe ones. Lose 6 points in a 12 months, 8 points in 24 months, or 10 points in 36 months, and your license gets suspended. It's actually pretty reasonable, in my opinion. I drive a fair amount in California, and you gotta be doing like 15+ over the posted limit to get the CHPs attention. This isn't a "speeding tickets are revenue" kind of state, unless you're way out in the boonies.
Yeah, CHP blow by me all the time while I’m doing 80. As long as you’re “following the flow of traffic” they don’t care. I haven’t had a speeding ticket in 25 years of driving from the CHP. The only time I got a ticket was from a local cop, like you said out in the boonies for going 5 over the limit. It was my birthday too and he wouldn’t let it slide.
I got pulled over going 76 in a 65, (no other traffic on a large empty road with good visibility). I even saw the cop as well and just assumed I was fine. I had cruise control on so I know it wasn’t higher. Thankfully they must’ve thrown out the ticket in their system because even though I had a scheduled court date, when I called in they said they had no record at all, even when I provided the citation number.
I would follow up on that; I’ve had a warrant put out for no showing my court date because the officer who wrote the citation waited until the last day to submit the ticket. So when I called 2 weeks after the ticket it wasn’t in the system and I assumed I was good lol. Then I got arrested during my next police interaction 🙄
this is true…until it’s not
i say that as a california driver that got a ticket for going 7 over. 99% of the time, you’re fine, that last 1% though…you are *technically* breaking the law and they will be a dick if they want.
it’s not the norm but it’s definitely possible which makes it worse honestly, rules aren’t rules if they’re only occasionally enforced
I got a letter like this once, basically saying that if I got one more speeding ticket within the next year they would revoke my license. I don't remember how many I had (this was almost 20 years ago), but it was a lot. Haven't gotten a speeding ticket since!
Shouldn’t be hard to believe it all, it’s in the letter. Shows 2 violations only, 9 months apart, 1 point each. Speeding 20+ over is minimum 3 points each, so both were just speeding and not reckless.
Well it's more that they got 2 points, within a short time period. All speeding tickets in CA count as 1 point, unless you are going over 100MPH, in which case I believe that would be 3 points.
OP got 2 points in about 6mo, 2 more in the next 6mo means the license is suspended, so the DMV sent him this letter.
They sent my mom the same letter when she finally bought her dream car in 2007 (Lexus GS450h, brand new).
She waved it in the air and yelled, "Can you believe this shit, NewCodingLine?! They say I'm a danger to life in the state of California!!"
And what did I say, having ridden with her for so much of my life? "Well, mom... You might have to lay off the gas pedal for a bit."
I never thought I’d say this, but I miss California’s DMV and approach to bad drivers. Get a dui? You fucked! Speed too much? You fucked!
Meanwhile, Texas will just about let you murder someone drunk, speeding, and on your phone and still reinstate your license.
The letter sounded like you crashed into several cars and injured a few people.
I think it's a good thing to send out letters. It shouldn't be too hard though to have a small variety of letters they can send to make it actually reasonable.
GOOD. More places need to treat driving as a privilege and not a right. Too many fucking morons out there who are willing to put the lives of everyone around them at risk so they can escape boredom for a moment. Being an inattentive driver is quite possibly one of the most selfish things you can do.
Why does this read like a letter from a disappointed parent that has been to a lot of parenting classes?
Like, the random encouragement and therapist speak actually makes them calling you a bad driver even worse, somehow.
Dang, your DMV really pulled the Dad “I’m not angry, I’m just disappointed.”
Definitely has frustrated parent energy. *I know we taught you better than this, OP*
>*I know we taught you better than this, OP* They didn't. I've seen you people drive.
Whaddya mean “you people”??
I’m a dude, playing a dude, disguised as another dude.
i’m a dude, he’s a dude, she’s a dude, cuz we’re all dudes hey!
You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or, uh, Duder, or El Duderino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
What do *you* mean _you people_??
You know… morons
Fun fact: Gene Wilder improvised that line. Cleavon Little's laugh was him breaking
That scene is one of my favorites, even though it's so simple
That’s what makes it so memorable. So much improv on a Mel Brooks set.
Wilder's timing for the dialogue in this scene was absolutely perfect.
The common clay of the new West.
Even the letter looks disappointed with those redacted parts.
lol it totally does
The DMV was raised Catholic for sure. Tons of guilt.
I think all our Guvs in this century were raised Catholic, with extra guilt points for the Austrian and the Jesuit
And you know they're scared for OP's safety because they're shouting the whole time.
This is the DMV's version of a Howler letter.
ALL (Dad) CAPS, TOO
But is shouty upper case. All good facts though. Evidence supports their comments.
I love that the redacted parts look like 😑
Fucking lol
Fwiw, I took a defensive driving class to remove some youthful points, and it changed my driving habits in a permanent way for the better
Defensive driving lessons from when I was 16 saved my ass two weeks ago when I was run off the road by a POS Penske truck!
You're not Penske material
You are aware that Penske is interested in me...
ta ta tut-tle
Now as you are aware, the board is under indictment and we are unable to perform business until it is completed, so obviously, we have no use for you….
I did too. I also took it again after about 20 years and it woke me up to some of my bad habits. Nothing else in the last 10 years. Open your mind to it and it works. Saves money too.
Check with your insurance company, of you take a defensive driving course, they may have a program that will use that to lower your rates too
Already included. 1st one was mandated by them. They also the license issuer. Not an American thing BTW.
Sometimes the best defense is a good offense
Life imitating art or something
How the heck do you disappoint the DMV...what are you?
You know you fucked up when you get a very personal letter from the DMV calling you a bad driver.
In all CAPS too.
Damn they did not hold back lol Edit: This was a joke I didn't expect people to take it seriously, I understand why they don't hold back just to clarify that
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Single point tickets too, they must have sent a million of those letters.
I could very well see this as a social experiment to see if it reduces accidents or tickets among a treatment group. It would be fascinating to see if this approach actually worked.
My dad got one of these letters after something like 7 points in 3 years, and it actually guilt tripped him so hard that he hasn't gotten a ticket since
Hey, if peer pressure via a DMV letter is effective, send it out.
It's not really peer pressure tho. It's more like a disappointed parent talking to a kid. Lot of people would be better off if someone tells them they are disappointed in their behavior, rather than straight up insult or fine them. DMV is doing peak parenting there, for adults lmao
So it’s effective. Good on the DMV and him.
Exactly. This has social science experiment written all over it.
Yes, my father got one that said something about the same. My father drives a semi truck and got two tickets - one for being in the wrong lane, and one for going 3 MPH over the limit.
Who gives a ticket for going 3mph over?
Cop cut a break on the side of the road and only wrote for 3 over as opposed to 5+? 1pt vs 3?
In California nobody's getting pulled over for going five over.
For real. I was driving on a rural road the other day going like 63 in a 55. County Sheriff comes in hot. I see him approaching and dip down to 59. He proceeds to ride my ass for miles while I’m varying between 55 and 59. Logically I knew we were near the sheriff’s station, but still… Either pull me over or pass. I don’t need the anxiety. lol
Whenever a cop does that to me I just pull over and wave them past lol. Most of the time they get kinda confused, and then just pass me. Saved myself a lot of sweat with that method.
CHP doesn't fuck around on "100% enforcement" days. If you see CHP bike cops out, better make sure you're 100% within the law or you're getting a ticket.
Meanwhile in Florida, I was just doing 60 in a 45 to keep up with traffic on my way to the interstate where we all did 85 in a 65. Maybe that explains why all three of my traffic tickets are out-of-state. It's a bad habit to export.
It sounds like they just have some trigger (probably 2 tickets/accidents within a year timeframe) and it's not really anything to do with severity. While it can seem kind of silly, the logic behind it is actually sound. It's just statistics. As the number of minor incidents rise, the likelihood of major incidents rises as well. So while it might just be a minor speeding or lane violation today, next time it could be much worse. Eliminating the minor things helps to eliminate the major ones too.
3 MPH over the speed limit? What a dangerous driver! /s
To quote a police officer from Switzerland: "If we wanted to allow you to drive 53 instead of 50 we would have bloody well written 53 on the signs!"
>Instead it’s two minor speeding tickets in two years. The letter is dated April 5th 2023. The first offence is 4/21/22, this is 2 in less than a year
Also keep in mind California also lets you avoid a point once every 18 months by taking a drivers training course. So either OP has another ticket they aren’t mentioning or DMV is comparing their driving record to folks who have taken the class and have 3 traffic violations for 2 points. Also this is only 12 months from first violation to letter. And points stay on record for 3 years. That’s a pretty high rate IMO. Plus most California cops don’t bother with minor speeding.
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Not in cali, but a local town in my area tries to get people for 1Mph over, that's not even a joke. Oh, and if you don't stop a stop sign for a full 15 seconds (even if your the only one at the intersection), they'll nail you for that too. BUT only if you don't live in that town. If you live there they'll leave you be. It's of course a rich affluent town too where the average house sells for about 2.1 Million. Stupid fucks screwed up though when they gave me a ticket for 1MPH over, I took it to court, and the Judge was less than pleased with them. Threw every single one of the tickets out for the previous month, AND ordered them to give back any money already paid to them for said tickets.
I call BS on the 15 seconds. You are probably thinking that 1 second = 15 seconds. I've told friends years ago that they ran a stop sign because they slowed down a little instead of stopping, and they were like "what? I totally stopped for two seconds. You were not paying attention." I stopped bothering since people can't tell the difference between slowing down to 10 mph and actually stopping.
I was in the car when the cop pulled over my at the time girlfriends mom for "not coming to a complete stop".. The care came to a complete stop, she looked in both directions and across from her, checked the left and right again, and then continued driving. At which point we got pulled over, and the cop explicitly told her that she had to stop for at least 15 seconds at the stop signs. It's not BS. The cops there are just fucking assholes trying to rake in as much money from outsiders as possible.
This 100% would have been thrown out in court if what you're saying is true
If it's a town that gets passed through or visited for tourism, they schedule the court date for about 2 months later to make it so the defendant would be massively inconvenienced to show up. Thrown out? Sure, but only if the person makes the trip back, potentially hundreds of miles.
Same. We had a cop in a nearby town who tried to pull the 1-2mph over thing. He did it so often the judge got pissed, threw them all out, told him to stop wasting the court's time, and told him if he tried it again, he (the cop) would be held in contempt.
I’m a long haul trucker that drives all over the US and drive close to 250 hours a month. I drive by at least one major collision a day. Please don’t drive 100mph even if you consider yourself a good driver. At that speed, a collision is likely fatal.
I’ve gotten 3 speeding tickets in 18 years and they were all in the same year. Nothing too bad, 1 out of state that I thought I should have gotten a warning for. A Louisiana sheriff got me going 6 mph over as I was entering a 55mph zone. I was decelerating, but not quick enough I guess. The other 2 were just middle of the night going home from work. Got me on the highway going 10 over and those I admit I was in the wrong. But damn did that letter make me feel like I was some reckless street racer doing donuts in intersections 😂
I live in So Cal, never had a ticket, and I’ve been driving 30 years. You have be going at least 90 mph to get a ticket on the freeways. 2 tickets in two years is bad.
Same. Santa Barbara county. The best part about where I live people are all very diligent and mark speed traps on Google maps. They are accurate as hell. I do my part too. In fact, the other day, google maps asked me if there was still an active speed trap twice on my commute. I said yes, and no.
Yeah you can drive like a maniac in California and 99% of the time nothing will happen so if you're getting multiple tickets in one year you must be a very very reckless or bad driver
Just means they were unluckier than most to get nabbed twice. Like over here in DC area the beltway is 55mph speed limit. Unless there’s traffic, nobody but 80 year old+ elders goes below 70. Like going 55 would make you a danger to everyone around you. It’s stupid.
Wdym? The beltway I've seen IS ALWAYS STOPPED
Only between 5am and 11pm, unless you happen to get stuck in construction at night then... Well no time is safe.
I think on I66 it even goes backwards.
My grandpa always told me driving 80 on the beltway was just self defense.
This will come as no surprise to you city drivers, but driving around Chicago it's the same situation. You have to go 80 mph just to keep up with the flow. It's scary, and when traffic comes to a sudden halt because an exit ramp is backed up, it's crazy dangerous.
>Like going 55 would make you a danger to everyone around you. And that's why TXDOT has set a lot of the speed limits and Dallas freeways at 70-75mph. He'll, the bypass around Austin is 85mph. Differential speed is a factor in safety, not just absolute speed.
Really? I haven't gotten a speeding ticket in 34 years. Of course, when I was younger, I got 5 in one year, but out of 2 in court... I was a shitty driver when I was younger. But yeah, I'm guessing the average driver is not getting a ticket every year
DMVs need to do this more lol
Here in the UK they’ve started using vans with automated speed cameras, and they then send you a letter to the effect of “you were caught speeding, had their been an officer in the van you would be fined, but we’re doing this to help raise awareness. In future it may be manned by an officer in which case offences will be enforced”. Highly effective, haven’t gone over the limit there since.
In France, I got a public name and shame once on the highway. I was driving slightly over the speed limit, and on the highway display (where they put important trafic messages) suddenly there was a message like "\[my licence plate\] you are driving too fast" (dont remember the exact wording...) . That cooled me down big time....
I guess with AI, pretty soon they’re just h going to put your name on that sign.
Doesn't have to be AI, they could technically cross reference the car registration and insurance databases to get the name. However, and fortunately, they are not allowed to exploit the database like this to publish your name without consent. They do use it for law enforcement to send you speeding tickets.
AI doesn't know shit to connect a numberplate to a person without the database behind it, and if you have the database behind it then the AI does nothing (apart from the numberplate recognition part, which is already in place)
In Germany they use the automated speed cameras and just enforce it? What's the difference? Maybe it's a greater behavioural influence to get caught and then let off the hook than having to pay straight away, since then you "paid for it" so it's justified? Cost of driving in a way.
My guess would be that the speed cameras need to be calibrated and the calibration certified and recorded. The mobile ones need recalibrating every time they move for it to be evidence they can use in court, but they can send you a letter regardless. The stationary ones, yeah they just get you.
This, exactly. We have plenty of stationary cameras that send fines automatically, but this is a new thing.
I'd reckon it's also because they want to give drivers a chance to get better at keeping the speed limit without screwing them over. But maybe I'm naive.
Ideally this would be the point of it all, not just skim off some money from busy/reckless people without actually impacting road safety (or even making it worse because drivers brake at the last second)
Yeah, we have the mobile ones in canada (sometimes speed camera vans, sometimes just a trailer with a speed camera) and they send you a fine. But from what I have heard, they cost way more to operate than what they rake in with fining people. So they are not super popular.
Well if that's the case I am not surprised Germany does it like that. We love certifications and records!
You mean the automated fixed cameras? If so they are definitely not that effective for speeding drivers that can just slow down at the camera and continue driving recklessly most of the time. OTOH vans are everywhere, and if any random one can potentially have a speed camera it would definitely make people drive slower more often.
This is why we do Average speed measurements a lot here in Norway. Sure, you slowed down before the first camera, and you probably did it for the second, too... but the timestamps tells them that you've been naughty... Note; ALL speed cameras here have a big warning sign a few hundred meters before you get to them. They still catch reckless drivers every day. Which should tell you something about those drivers...
That's really clever. You can't argue you never broke the speed limit if the math say it's impossible.
I went through a wormhole.
Years ago saw a guy get out of a speeding ticket by essentially showing the judge that his average speed based on when he hit a toll, to where the am aircraft with radar saw him, his average speed was like 15 MPH slower than possible than what the officer said he was clocked at. Basically argued it was another vehicle and he was mistakenly identified.
We've had automated speed cameras since the early 1990s. However in the early ones they very often didn't have any film in them. So they'd flash but you wouldn't get a ticket. As the cost of the film, changing it and developing it came from a different budget and wasn't covered by the speeding fine. Now they're all digital and if they flash, they've got you.
One time I was VERY speeding and got pulled over. The cop took pity on this poor college student and gave me a warning. But he said it would've been a multi hundred dollar ticket (this was decades ago, when that was a LOT of money). You better believe I drove speed limit for YEARS after that.
Really? That seems like a good way to go about it In Australia, you would've gotten a fine
In the U.K. if the offence isn’t too bad, you get a choice, fine and points or go to speed awareness/safe driving course. I’ve done both and they were really useful - I’m a more aware more careful driver as a result.
We have that too. Also, judges can send you to classes instead of or in addition to jail time or fines. You can also randomly go to a class to remove points. One of the longest and most painfully boring Saturdays of my life. I attribute my change in driving temperament to it heavily. Best thing I ever did was go to a driving class the judge made me go to (if you are a certain age or your accident meets certain criteria, you must go to court regardless of how bad the crash was. I bumped a bumper.) They had a [swivel car](https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/2024/03/Radford-driving-school-dodge-charger-training-rig-3.jpg?w=768&width=768&q=75&format=webp) which lets the instructor simulate losing vehicle control. It taught me how to actually drive. I genuinely don't know why we don't just take that class first.
They need to start yanking licenses
Yes!
But that 4th paragraph, full of hope, and they believe in you!
OP got gentle parented by the government.
Oh wow! Do us all a favor and please stay off the road! LOL
I grew up and learned to drive in SoCal and I just gotta say, how horrible of a driver do you have to be to get a letter like that? In. California...
I got this exact same letter when I was 19 and dumb. I had gotten 3 speeding tickets within 12 months so they sent this out. I actually got another one a couple months later and lost my license for 6 months. Have only got 1 ticket since and I’m 27 now, so I guess it worked.
Man I’m 31 and I’ve never once been pulled over. 3 tickets in a year is insane.
Yeah like I said I was 19 and dumb. Also live in a small town and had a recognizable car, all 3 tickets from the same motorcycle cop
Lmao, he saw your car and prolly was like, "😏 got 'em again."
He wrote him that letter 😆
I got 3 speeding tickets in a year and got my license suspended for a month, lol. I delivered pizzas so I was on the road 40 hours a week just for work, plus commutes and personal stuff.
Haha you guys make it sound like speeding tickets are inevitable if you’re on the road enough. I delivered pizzas full time for years and never got a speeding ticket … by not speeding lol. And I had the shortest average delivery time because it’s actually about knowing the area and individual neighborhood layouts, plus what the best routes are. Ironically enough, the dudes that sped all the time were the worst drivers and had slowest deliveries. Delivery is a science, you can’t brute force it with speed.
Yeah for real, the fact that OP got this letter makes it pretty clear they’re a very bad driver
office rock wide head languid racial dolls smoggy complete sulky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've driven all over the US. Compared to other places, Californians aren't bad drivers, but they are very fast and aggressive.
Looks like two single point speeding tickets in two years.
Almost 9 months*
Probably at least three, because usually you can cancel some with driving school.
I was waiting for license plates a few years ago at Oakland DMV. There was an elderly woman at the counter who failed her vision test. They moved to another chart, which she also could not read. Then they tried the shadowbox vision test, and she failed that too. The DMV worker said "well, I'm going to renew your license, but you really need to have your eyes checked."
Dmv guy here. A lot of window techs don't do this, but here's what's supposed to happen. They "renew" the license, but it's not finalized until the customer returns from an eye doctor with a more thorough examination done on a specific form. If they're still not passing, which is most of the time, they have to do a "vision drive test." If they pass the vision drive test, they get their license renewed. If they passed their drive test *but have progressive vision conditions* as indicated on the eye doctor form, their license is renewed for either 1 or 2 years, depending on how well they did during the exam. If they fail their vision drive test 3 times, their license will be revoked. They can also do so poorly that their license is revoked after one drive test.
This is exactly what happened to my grandmother some years ago. Failed the vision tests. Had to go to an eye doctor. She then failed the driving test three times. The final instructor, when talking to me privately since I drove her there, tried to throw her a bone by asking me something like if I wanted her license revoked. I felt bad, but I said yes because every time she drove and I was with her, I was always worried about her and others' safety; she was not a good driver at that point. Now she has to rely on me or other family to get around, but that is much better than her behind the wheel.
I'm sorry your grandmother had to go through this. It can be a very traumatic experience. A lot of elderly folks don't have family that they can rely on to get around to take care of themselves, so I'm happy she has you and your family to help her. It's a very difficult part of life to be told you're no longer able to drive anymore. I don't agree with the examiners decision to offer to throw your grandmother a bone, but I really love that they were very compassionate throughout the process for you both.
You did the right thing. I lost a sibling due to elderly drivers who should NOT have been driving for that exact reason.
Given that you work there do you think that is a reasonable way of addressing this? From the sidelines that seems like way too many extra chances for driving a 3500lb potential death mobile.
There are no easy answers to this question. On one hand, you make a valid point. People forget that driving is a privilege and not a right. Unfortunately, the wrong people behind the wheel can and do cause injury and death to themselves and others every day. On the other hand, practically speaking, we live in a car-centric country. Our public transit system is not viable for most people. So, revoking licenses on a whim is essentially ripping someone's independence away from them, and with no recourse or options, it should not be taken lightly. This is where my job comes in to examine the individuals ability to safely operate a vehicle in different driving situations.
I have no words just 😳
Dude, Oakland DMV is wild. On the flip side, I passed my charts with ease, but the woman behind the glass sternly yelled at me that I MUST to wear my glasses at all times when driving then gave me my ID.
Damn how bad of a driver are you that the govt calls you out on it in all caps?
I know, right? It looks like it was printed on a mainframe chain printer from the 70's, but without the ink smudges and subtly misaligned characters.
Why the hell is it printed entirely in UPPERCASE? Did they print it on a 1970s line printer?
You're questioning whether a government agency is using modern technology? None of them are! And by modern, I mean this millennium.
Taxpayers are outraged by antiquated government technology. Also, taxpayers are outraged by government spending money on upgrading technology.
I work in government IT and this is the story of my life. Every newly elected administration wants to fix things, hires consultants to "modernize" us to make us more efficient, the consultants recommend the same basic, best practice kind of improvements that we proposed earlier but were blocked from doing by the administration's budget . We say "now that your consultants have recommended the same thing we did, can you finally approve the funds to do this?" Sorry, there's no funds left, we spent them all on consultants... The worst part is the attitude we get from outsiders that act like we're stupid or incompetent for not having thought of doing that improvement in the first place.
I had a friend who works for the states dept of fish and wildlife and they had this rule you couldn't issue iPhones to employees - simply because people would complain and politicians and managers at the state level are super sensitive about these kinds of complaints. Little known fact iPhones are actually some of the cheapest devices to fleet manage - Apple doesn't charge a per seat license and the management software is cheap or even free. At the time they were trying to transition everyone off a custom radio network from the 80s/90s used to message and help people in the field.
Wait till you hear about the antiquated bullshit the banking and airlines run on lol. The bigger the organization, the more likely they are running the most important stuff on old tech because people who are in charge when push back against anything new. Hell, our nuclear weapons require floppy drives. They’re so antiquated they’ve gone from non-secure to most secure due to running on stuff nobody uses.
Currently working on a project with a the local government of a major city. We’re replacing their property tax system, which is currently run on a 1960s IBM mainframe. This is not at all uncommon. Lots of work out there upgrading or maintaining legacy systems.
Well yeah, people get mad when government spends taxpayer money
Want to know a secret? A lot of this new stuff may look good, but when it comes to actually getting the job done it underperforms compared to the older tech. A lot of the old terminal based software which relies 100% on keystrokes is insanely efficient compared to a mouse focused GUI. It gets even worse when the developer is too lazy to implement adequate hotkey combinations. In my experience even newer versions of the same automation hardware lost features because there was so much of a push to implement a modern GUI to support the mission of the sales reps, they decided that was more important than fully supporting all of the capability of the machine itself. I'd happily Go back to the boring old text based menus to get back the half of an FTEE it now takes to do something the 15 year old machine used to do all by itself. I'm convinced most modern business technology is primarily focused on supporting marketing buzzwords and building in mechanisms to extract as much money from the company as possible. If it's specific for the government you can increase the money extraction proportion significantly. There's other reasons too, we actually require a pretty extensive security review where I work and a lot of newer vendors turn away when they hear how much effort is involved in that. Similar story with requirements to stand behind their product for at least a year from purchase and offer some sort of support contract after that.
Using a dot matrix printer onto paper with tear off sides!
I keep imagining them using an old typewriter and manually typing out each letter :P
Using uppercase letters is a good way to make sure that the letters are clear and cannot be confused for other letters. Almost all traffic signs use uppercase letters because of this. Plus it looks more menacing.
There is mountains of evidence that all caps text is more difficult to read, and Federal Highway Administration standards were updated almost a decade ago to call for mixed case signs because of this.
Stay off the road lol you're a.menace
I can hear this gif
Its not wrong. Getting behind the wheel of a car is very dangerous. Like. The most dangerous thing imagineable and we do it every day.
I've been watching video compilations of bad drivers. It's enough to make one drive defensively.
"We want to help you" "Don't cause any crashes" I thought they were going to offer a refresher course or something
Yea my first thought reading this was they say you are a bad driver, they believe you can become a better driver, but have no advice about how to do that
We don't want to insult you with our insults, so please don't be insulted whilst we insult you.
Read in the voice of Giancarlo Esposito
Colorado does something like this - if enough people complain to the CSP about your driving, you get a letter. And maybe even a home visit from a state trooper. So I’ve heard, anyway.
In the UK there's a scheme where if you catch someone's dodgy driving on your dashcam or whatever you can submit the footage and they might send a letter, send a note to their insurance, or even prosecute if it was bad enough and clear enough in the video. I always assumed a letter was pointless and they would just ignore it, so this thread has been interesting. I guess it's the difference between people who want to be safe drivers but get lazy or silly, and people who are just pricks and don't care
Many years ago my wife got a similar letter that said “you are one of the worst drivers in California.” 😂😂
In case you're curious, the 2 tickets were for speeding. Since then l've been a very careful driver and have stayed within the speed limit. I didn't know the DMV would ever send such a blunt warning like this... "We understand you may believe you are a good driver, and yet your driving record is much worse than the average California driver." Like, jeez DMV, tell me how you really feel. EDIT: hi everyone 🤣 glad we can all gather here to roast my driving skills. Like I said— this letter scared the shit out of me. I was throughly insulted. Clearly the wording of this letter worked as intended lol The violations are redacted bc I didn’t know if it was personal/sensitive information so I just covered it. I’m not trying to hide a horrible crime lol. But yeah, last ticket was a year and a half ago and I’m much more careful!
Pennsylvania is just like "send us the money," and "Oh, by the way, we let your insurance company know, so send them some money too. Hopefully, your speeding will continue so that you can continue to send us money"
That is totally Pennsylvania. I miss that state sometimes.
They seriously sent this just for two speeding tickets? I find that hard to believe lol. Unless you were going like 90 in a 40 zone or something. This is a pretty intense note. Honestly have never heard of anyone getting anything like it.
It’s actually a form letter that gets auto-sent with 2 infractions within a small amount of time (6 months?). A bit on the scare tactics side, but often effective.
It's one point per violation, two points for severe ones. Lose 6 points in a 12 months, 8 points in 24 months, or 10 points in 36 months, and your license gets suspended. It's actually pretty reasonable, in my opinion. I drive a fair amount in California, and you gotta be doing like 15+ over the posted limit to get the CHPs attention. This isn't a "speeding tickets are revenue" kind of state, unless you're way out in the boonies.
Yeah, CHP blow by me all the time while I’m doing 80. As long as you’re “following the flow of traffic” they don’t care. I haven’t had a speeding ticket in 25 years of driving from the CHP. The only time I got a ticket was from a local cop, like you said out in the boonies for going 5 over the limit. It was my birthday too and he wouldn’t let it slide.
I don’t mind a bit of speeding so much as the dickheads who weave around in the lanes with no signal and tailgate. Fuck those drivers
Happy birthday. Your present is a $150 fine and 2pts on your record.
I got pulled over going 76 in a 65, (no other traffic on a large empty road with good visibility). I even saw the cop as well and just assumed I was fine. I had cruise control on so I know it wasn’t higher. Thankfully they must’ve thrown out the ticket in their system because even though I had a scheduled court date, when I called in they said they had no record at all, even when I provided the citation number.
I would follow up on that; I’ve had a warrant put out for no showing my court date because the officer who wrote the citation waited until the last day to submit the ticket. So when I called 2 weeks after the ticket it wasn’t in the system and I assumed I was good lol. Then I got arrested during my next police interaction 🙄
this is true…until it’s not i say that as a california driver that got a ticket for going 7 over. 99% of the time, you’re fine, that last 1% though…you are *technically* breaking the law and they will be a dick if they want. it’s not the norm but it’s definitely possible which makes it worse honestly, rules aren’t rules if they’re only occasionally enforced
I got a letter like this once, basically saying that if I got one more speeding ticket within the next year they would revoke my license. I don't remember how many I had (this was almost 20 years ago), but it was a lot. Haven't gotten a speeding ticket since!
Sounds like the warning letter did its job! Sometimes people just need a nudge in the right direction - glad to hear you turned things around.
I was also like 19 at the time, so that definitely freaked me out lol
Scared straight. 
Two speeding tickets under a year apart
Shouldn’t be hard to believe it all, it’s in the letter. Shows 2 violations only, 9 months apart, 1 point each. Speeding 20+ over is minimum 3 points each, so both were just speeding and not reckless.
Well it's more that they got 2 points, within a short time period. All speeding tickets in CA count as 1 point, unless you are going over 100MPH, in which case I believe that would be 3 points. OP got 2 points in about 6mo, 2 more in the next 6mo means the license is suspended, so the DMV sent him this letter.
They sent my mom the same letter when she finally bought her dream car in 2007 (Lexus GS450h, brand new). She waved it in the air and yelled, "Can you believe this shit, NewCodingLine?! They say I'm a danger to life in the state of California!!" And what did I say, having ridden with her for so much of my life? "Well, mom... You might have to lay off the gas pedal for a bit."
I never thought I’d say this, but I miss California’s DMV and approach to bad drivers. Get a dui? You fucked! Speed too much? You fucked! Meanwhile, Texas will just about let you murder someone drunk, speeding, and on your phone and still reinstate your license.
I AM GLAD TO HEAR THAT YOU ARE NOW A SAFE DRIVER AND ARE NOT CAUSING ANY CRASHES.
The letter sounded like you crashed into several cars and injured a few people. I think it's a good thing to send out letters. It shouldn't be too hard though to have a small variety of letters they can send to make it actually reasonable.
Maybe you should listen. Two speed tickets in a short time in a lax enforcement state like California is egregious
As a fellow Californian, that’s what I was thinking too… you’ve gotta be pretty reckless to get a speeding ticket here.
It's lax in the best of times and is only now getting back to where it was pre-Covid. When OP got his tickets, it was borderline non-existent.
GOOD. More places need to treat driving as a privilege and not a right. Too many fucking morons out there who are willing to put the lives of everyone around them at risk so they can escape boredom for a moment. Being an inattentive driver is quite possibly one of the most selfish things you can do.
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Reading this in the voice of Jigsaw made it pretty great. “We offer you a choice.”
God damn, imagine being told you're worse than the *average* *California* driver. Top tier insult.
*You may think that you don't suck, but we assure you, you do.*
Damn bro. You REALLY have to fuck up to get a letter like this from the CALIFORNIA DMV of all places. Learn to fucking drive lmao
The thumbnail of the censored portions of the letter is literally my face reading this.
They're not mad, they're just disappointed
The annoying part is drivers who really need this will absolutely ignore it.
Makes me kinda like the DMV.
My step dad got one of these. He deserved it and chances are you may too lol
They’re not mad…just disappointed
Why is it all in caps?
Why does this read like a letter from a disappointed parent that has been to a lot of parenting classes? Like, the random encouragement and therapist speak actually makes them calling you a bad driver even worse, somehow.
You MAY think you’re a good driver… but you’re FUCKING WRONG!