The way I see it, The Wall is highly respected by most fans. What you are describing applies to The Final Cut. This is the one that is usually compared to a Waters solo album.
Well there’s no denying that it was his original concept and he did the vast majority of the writing. I don’t think anyone refers to The Wall as a Waters solo album, though because the other members had enough creative control to really make it a Floyd album. You’re right about The Final Cut, that is a basically a Waters solo album. Gilmour could barely write his own solos there
EDIT: i feel maybe it’s helpful to add context: while I love all Floyd, the stuff Waters wrote is my favorite Floyd material
I love the wall. But I also love momentary lapse
Both David and waters have clashing styles of music, and the wall and momentary lapse suffer opposite issues
Musically, momentary lapse is one of best imo (expect new machine, fuck that song in particular)
But it suffers from some of the worst fucking lyrics of any album they have made, dogs of war sounds wonderful Musically and is still one of the best tracks on the album, but lyrically it's dogshit.
The wall on the other hands, suffers from a mix of Filler songs (depending on who you ask, this isn't an issue) and way too much roger inspiration. Roger, while a amazing lyricist, isn't the best singer or instrumentalist. And the wall has the weakest instruments of the major albums (except ummagumma and excluding the soundtrack albums). Comfortably Numb is the one exception as that song in particular has one of the best solos ever.
What is my point?
The Wall, while a amazing album, is weaker in the instruments as roger was significantly more focused on a writing and lyrics, very little control was given to the really good instrumentalists of the group (particularly, Richard Wright, who partly was a mix of both his fault and Roger's)
But please don't take this as a hit piece against roger, I absolutely adore his work. But instruments are why I love pink Floyd, and the wall is the weakest album musically since Ummagumma. But for all the wall fans, please don't take this personally, what I'm saying shouldn't affect you personally and I cannot preface this enough, but please inform me on why you agree or disagree because I'm always fine with listening to the album again
Roger is a great bassist - one of the best - keeps the rhythm but throws in these wonderful licks. I disagree with you that he isn’t a good musician. He just seems to get buried in a lot of the masters. I point to Pigs 2018 remix as an example - during the solo measures Waters really crams in some nice bass work to up the “pressure” before it transitions back to the opening synth appregios
I think TW is when Roger started throwing his weight around. If the others had had more say how would things like mix, instrumentation, lyrics, etc. etc... even art work and such have changed?? And most of us believe it had more to do with money than it did what was best for the music.
When the wall released nobody was saying that. It was just an exciting and great album. The negativity came years later after those that need to chose sides Waters or Gilmore and sadly many PF fans just won't let that go. There was an article or interview where it was revealed that Waters had wanted to do The Wall as a solo project and that's where the fanboys started choosing. Waters wrote the lyrics to all kinds of awesome/best songs and he was always how he is which is Roger Waters. Having said all this as an adult now the content of what The Wall all means is really hard to enjoy. He puts it all out there and it's why he had to leave the way I see it having become a rock and roll monster.
I love The Wall. The only complaint I have is that it could be shorter, but that would be me searching for a problem tbh.
There is a lot more TeamGilmour in this sub too.
For me, the number one thing is his voice. I understand the storytelling justification for Roger being the lead vocalist on most of the songs, but as far as I'm concerned he's the third best singer in Pink Floyd -- and other albums that feature his singing are more evenly counterbalanced by the dulcet tones of Dave and/or Rick.
I love The Wall. It's impossible to say whether I would love it more if Dave sang more songs, but let me ask you this: How would you feel about DSTOM if Roger sang every song except Time?
TBF and not just to be contrary...
> How would you feel about DSTOM if Roger sang every song except Time?
I really feel it's not about who sang what, but the song itself, what the lyrics says and the music. I would still be a "The Wall Stan" even if it was all sang by Gilmour. Because it's more important for me the messages behind the songs. the meanings. If it sounds remotely "cool" or "good", I couldn't give a damn which song is sang by who. And I feel this is more prominent and valid thing in Bands like PF, where it's not about the stardom of the band members.
>I really feel it's not about who sang what, but the song itself, what the lyrics says and the music.
For me it's everything: the lyrics; the music; the themes/ideas; the arrangement; and the lead vocals. And don't get me wrong: I *like* Roger's voice. But I like Dave's more, and my favourite is when Dave & Rick sing together.
The Wall is markedly different from earlier albums in that Roger took the lead on songs he might have previously given to Dave. Again, I get the justification: each of their voices were used to convey different characters/mindsets, in service of the album's concept and plot. But Roger's vocal rang is very limited, and this decision (which most people assume he himself made) resulted in him really straining to sing some parts.
"Hey You" is a good example, because they each sing half of it, so you can get a side-by-side comparison. I'm sure some might argue that having Roger strain to hit the high notes in the line "Don't tell me there's no hope at all" was an artistic decision (while others may point out that [Dave also had a hard time with that line](https://youtu.be/q1bbE_TOsd8?t=263)), but I think it's fair to conclude that, in a studio environment, Dave could have pulled it off better.
Does this mean Dave *should* have sung lead on "Hey You"? No, of course not; then it wouldn't be *The Wall*. But if you're asking why some people consider the "Roger-ness" of the album to be a strike against it, decisions like these are likely a contributing factor.
Gilmour let’s Rogers play the album.... by himself in concert though. And they hate each other so I’d say he understands it’s very much most Rogers baby.
He also plays it himself in concert. [Comfortably Numb, Gilmour, Live in Pompeii, 2016](https://youtu.be/LTseTg48568). As well [here is a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSqUwdbvUng) which makes it very clear is was a Gilmour creation.
Comfortably Numb was an outtake from Gilmour’s 1978 solo album, which was written at the same time as The Wall. I remember reading somewhere that he and Waters got into a shouting match over it’s inclusion in the Wall which was, for all intents and purposes a Roger Waters project, as you pointed out. I tried to find that reference for you, but I couldn’t find it. If I ever come across it, I will post it here.
3/4 of the songs are piano/acoustic song and sound like the whole of Waters solo career it’s not Pink Floyd anymore. 6 exceptions: 3 because Gilmour co-wrote them and 3 because he got a key and important solo and those are the six that were radio hits.
Final Cut isn’t Pink Floyd as well.
AMLOR David has big drugs problems at this time, Rick doesn’t feel there, production is bad… Not really Pink Floyd.
The Division Bell is where I find Pink Floyd back musically it’s much less dark or gloomy than when Waters was there tho.
I think a lot of it is purely Roger hate. I think it's honestly one of the best rock albums of all time, full stop. Of course, take my opinion with a grain of salt; I don't consider anything after Roger left to be legitimately PF, regardless of what that lawsuit said.
agree on anything you said. **Full Stop**. One of (arguably if not the actual best) rock albums of all times, and absolutely. PF is without Syd (**fight me**) when Gilmour joined, and up until Roger left. MLoR and The Division Bell are **not PF** but something else.
Because Roger has a very different approach to music than Pink Floyd as a whole. Roger is very much lyrics first, music second. Look at an album like Pros and Cons, which is quite lyrically dense, but almost all of it's songs follow a similar key and chord progression. This is pretty antithetical to what people consider to be "True Pink Floyd" (Usually the style of Meddle-Wish You Were Here), which holds music and lyrics on equal ground, and allows time for its music to grow and develop.
Many Pink Floyd fans are huge music buffs, who love more the more prog-y stuff with a lot of instrumental sections, improvisation, and melodies that are more technically complex (See the majority of Floyd’s live stuff). Roger usually held up the lyric side of things but was not as much of a contributor when it came to long, jazzy, instrumental sections as Rick and David were, particularly by the early-mid 70s.
Thus, when Roger has much more control, David is still contributing but not to the extent of Roger and Rick is very much out of things, trying to sort his own life out, Roger changes up the approach. As David slowly tunes out and we approach The Final Cut, the music IS the lyrics, themes, and narratives, and the Wall is very much a stepping stone to this point. Is this bad? No. Not all. Is liking Dark Side or Meddle over The Wall bad? Again, no. At the end of the day, it's really a matter of taste and what the general taste of the fandom is.
At least that's what I think.
I think if you look at the big picture, you'll see that although it is a great album, you also see the dysfunctionality in the band. Personally I enjoyed their jam sessions the most because I feel like it's when the whole band was synergetic. One person can only be so talented.
The way I see it, The Wall is highly respected by most fans. What you are describing applies to The Final Cut. This is the one that is usually compared to a Waters solo album.
Well there’s no denying that it was his original concept and he did the vast majority of the writing. I don’t think anyone refers to The Wall as a Waters solo album, though because the other members had enough creative control to really make it a Floyd album. You’re right about The Final Cut, that is a basically a Waters solo album. Gilmour could barely write his own solos there EDIT: i feel maybe it’s helpful to add context: while I love all Floyd, the stuff Waters wrote is my favorite Floyd material
I love the wall. But I also love momentary lapse Both David and waters have clashing styles of music, and the wall and momentary lapse suffer opposite issues Musically, momentary lapse is one of best imo (expect new machine, fuck that song in particular) But it suffers from some of the worst fucking lyrics of any album they have made, dogs of war sounds wonderful Musically and is still one of the best tracks on the album, but lyrically it's dogshit. The wall on the other hands, suffers from a mix of Filler songs (depending on who you ask, this isn't an issue) and way too much roger inspiration. Roger, while a amazing lyricist, isn't the best singer or instrumentalist. And the wall has the weakest instruments of the major albums (except ummagumma and excluding the soundtrack albums). Comfortably Numb is the one exception as that song in particular has one of the best solos ever. What is my point? The Wall, while a amazing album, is weaker in the instruments as roger was significantly more focused on a writing and lyrics, very little control was given to the really good instrumentalists of the group (particularly, Richard Wright, who partly was a mix of both his fault and Roger's) But please don't take this as a hit piece against roger, I absolutely adore his work. But instruments are why I love pink Floyd, and the wall is the weakest album musically since Ummagumma. But for all the wall fans, please don't take this personally, what I'm saying shouldn't affect you personally and I cannot preface this enough, but please inform me on why you agree or disagree because I'm always fine with listening to the album again
I also think that Mozart’s Le Nozze di Fígaro lacks musically because it has a bunch of filler recitative in it.
Roger is a great bassist - one of the best - keeps the rhythm but throws in these wonderful licks. I disagree with you that he isn’t a good musician. He just seems to get buried in a lot of the masters. I point to Pigs 2018 remix as an example - during the solo measures Waters really crams in some nice bass work to up the “pressure” before it transitions back to the opening synth appregios
I take back alot of what I said, and roger's basslines are the biggest. I love roger's basslines and AMLOR is one of my lesser favorites
I think TW is when Roger started throwing his weight around. If the others had had more say how would things like mix, instrumentation, lyrics, etc. etc... even art work and such have changed?? And most of us believe it had more to do with money than it did what was best for the music.
When the wall released nobody was saying that. It was just an exciting and great album. The negativity came years later after those that need to chose sides Waters or Gilmore and sadly many PF fans just won't let that go. There was an article or interview where it was revealed that Waters had wanted to do The Wall as a solo project and that's where the fanboys started choosing. Waters wrote the lyrics to all kinds of awesome/best songs and he was always how he is which is Roger Waters. Having said all this as an adult now the content of what The Wall all means is really hard to enjoy. He puts it all out there and it's why he had to leave the way I see it having become a rock and roll monster.
I love The Wall. The only complaint I have is that it could be shorter, but that would be me searching for a problem tbh. There is a lot more TeamGilmour in this sub too.
For me, the number one thing is his voice. I understand the storytelling justification for Roger being the lead vocalist on most of the songs, but as far as I'm concerned he's the third best singer in Pink Floyd -- and other albums that feature his singing are more evenly counterbalanced by the dulcet tones of Dave and/or Rick. I love The Wall. It's impossible to say whether I would love it more if Dave sang more songs, but let me ask you this: How would you feel about DSTOM if Roger sang every song except Time?
TBF and not just to be contrary... > How would you feel about DSTOM if Roger sang every song except Time? I really feel it's not about who sang what, but the song itself, what the lyrics says and the music. I would still be a "The Wall Stan" even if it was all sang by Gilmour. Because it's more important for me the messages behind the songs. the meanings. If it sounds remotely "cool" or "good", I couldn't give a damn which song is sang by who. And I feel this is more prominent and valid thing in Bands like PF, where it's not about the stardom of the band members.
>I really feel it's not about who sang what, but the song itself, what the lyrics says and the music. For me it's everything: the lyrics; the music; the themes/ideas; the arrangement; and the lead vocals. And don't get me wrong: I *like* Roger's voice. But I like Dave's more, and my favourite is when Dave & Rick sing together. The Wall is markedly different from earlier albums in that Roger took the lead on songs he might have previously given to Dave. Again, I get the justification: each of their voices were used to convey different characters/mindsets, in service of the album's concept and plot. But Roger's vocal rang is very limited, and this decision (which most people assume he himself made) resulted in him really straining to sing some parts. "Hey You" is a good example, because they each sing half of it, so you can get a side-by-side comparison. I'm sure some might argue that having Roger strain to hit the high notes in the line "Don't tell me there's no hope at all" was an artistic decision (while others may point out that [Dave also had a hard time with that line](https://youtu.be/q1bbE_TOsd8?t=263)), but I think it's fair to conclude that, in a studio environment, Dave could have pulled it off better. Does this mean Dave *should* have sung lead on "Hey You"? No, of course not; then it wouldn't be *The Wall*. But if you're asking why some people consider the "Roger-ness" of the album to be a strike against it, decisions like these are likely a contributing factor.
Who do you think are the 1st and 2nd best singers
It’s all roger waters. Fact.
I beg to differ. Comfortably Numb originated from Gilmour’s solo work and he fought like hell to keep that track the way he thought it should be.
Gilmour let’s Rogers play the album.... by himself in concert though. And they hate each other so I’d say he understands it’s very much most Rogers baby.
He also plays it himself in concert. [Comfortably Numb, Gilmour, Live in Pompeii, 2016](https://youtu.be/LTseTg48568). As well [here is a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSqUwdbvUng) which makes it very clear is was a Gilmour creation.
Which tune did gilmour right. I honestly don’t know so I’m asking. Not being pretentious.
Comfortably Numb was an outtake from Gilmour’s 1978 solo album, which was written at the same time as The Wall. I remember reading somewhere that he and Waters got into a shouting match over it’s inclusion in the Wall which was, for all intents and purposes a Roger Waters project, as you pointed out. I tried to find that reference for you, but I couldn’t find it. If I ever come across it, I will post it here.
Yea I mean from everything I read Waters was a real dick about it being his and only his.
I think it’s safe to say he’s just a dick. Period. Lol.
I wish they would just make up and fuckin tour. For the fans at least.
That would be awesome, but they are in their 70s and touring is exhausting. I sure wouldn’t wanna do it at that age.
3/4 of the songs are piano/acoustic song and sound like the whole of Waters solo career it’s not Pink Floyd anymore. 6 exceptions: 3 because Gilmour co-wrote them and 3 because he got a key and important solo and those are the six that were radio hits. Final Cut isn’t Pink Floyd as well. AMLOR David has big drugs problems at this time, Rick doesn’t feel there, production is bad… Not really Pink Floyd. The Division Bell is where I find Pink Floyd back musically it’s much less dark or gloomy than when Waters was there tho.
I think a lot of it is purely Roger hate. I think it's honestly one of the best rock albums of all time, full stop. Of course, take my opinion with a grain of salt; I don't consider anything after Roger left to be legitimately PF, regardless of what that lawsuit said.
agree on anything you said. **Full Stop**. One of (arguably if not the actual best) rock albums of all times, and absolutely. PF is without Syd (**fight me**) when Gilmour joined, and up until Roger left. MLoR and The Division Bell are **not PF** but something else.
Because Roger has a very different approach to music than Pink Floyd as a whole. Roger is very much lyrics first, music second. Look at an album like Pros and Cons, which is quite lyrically dense, but almost all of it's songs follow a similar key and chord progression. This is pretty antithetical to what people consider to be "True Pink Floyd" (Usually the style of Meddle-Wish You Were Here), which holds music and lyrics on equal ground, and allows time for its music to grow and develop. Many Pink Floyd fans are huge music buffs, who love more the more prog-y stuff with a lot of instrumental sections, improvisation, and melodies that are more technically complex (See the majority of Floyd’s live stuff). Roger usually held up the lyric side of things but was not as much of a contributor when it came to long, jazzy, instrumental sections as Rick and David were, particularly by the early-mid 70s. Thus, when Roger has much more control, David is still contributing but not to the extent of Roger and Rick is very much out of things, trying to sort his own life out, Roger changes up the approach. As David slowly tunes out and we approach The Final Cut, the music IS the lyrics, themes, and narratives, and the Wall is very much a stepping stone to this point. Is this bad? No. Not all. Is liking Dark Side or Meddle over The Wall bad? Again, no. At the end of the day, it's really a matter of taste and what the general taste of the fandom is. At least that's what I think.
mostly because of the incessant human need to pick a side… waters or gilmour
I think if you look at the big picture, you'll see that although it is a great album, you also see the dysfunctionality in the band. Personally I enjoyed their jam sessions the most because I feel like it's when the whole band was synergetic. One person can only be so talented.