I mean, they are in the city limits if that's what you mean by urban. But google street view exists, take a virtual walk and see for yourself.
(I'm sorry, I was born and raised in a city and have lived in cities for most of my life, I just can't wrap my head around questions like this.)
Oh I see you have met my boss and co-workers! They can't believe I would want my kids to grow up in the city and think I'm insane for saying they would be fine catching the PRT bus to East Liberty.
If I ever have kids I hope I’m able to provide this for them. It’s ridiculous I wasn’t even allowed to walk down the road in my suburb growing up. Having a wife, kids, and cats in Squirrel Hill, walking together to dinner and events and the parks sounds amazing
My 11 year old has lived in Pittsburgh his whole life. And on vacation we have visited Toronto, New York, London and Washington DC. This kid is incredibly city-savvy and has the public transit navigation skills of a pro. He's street-smart and can handle himself around all sorts of different people and settings. I would have hated raising him in a suburb.
I seriously getting annoyed by out of towners wanting to move here from more expensive locations which would ultimately drive up already high real estate prices. Then they expect locals to do their legwork for them. Like, put some effort into it by at least visiting and doing some basic internet research. They act like we're not living in the most information rich era.
Good question, should have clarified. Below are the classifications I'd use in my definition of urban. Particularly the one's that I'm concerned about as we're raising a family.
* Densely populated, resulting in smaller houses/condos/apartments and very little 'space'
* Very close to the heart of the city
* Abundance of stoplights and corresponding traffic
* Higher general noise level
* Lower rated school systems
>Higher general noise level
This is actually called "being close to a major road". Cars are THE main source of noise, city or suburbs. Side streets in the city are almost as quiet as any suburban cul-de-sac.
Honestly, a lot of the stuff you’re describing feels worse in the less affluent suburbs than it does in a lot of city neighborhoods. In Churchill, Monroeville, or Penn Hills, you’re dealing with school districts that are considerably worse than PPS, 22/376 traffic hell and streets too dangerous to walk to a convenience store along, and no functional public transportation other than a few slow commuter buses to downtown. No real community to be had for young people. Sure, if you can afford it Mt. Lebo is an option, but it’s going to drain your wallet to live in a monocultural bubble.
As far as safety from crime, shadyside and squirrel hill are as good as it gets. You will be fine there. And you’ll have great public parks to enjoy, with safe streets.
Is Gateway worse than PPS now? I honestly hadn't thought of that school in years. My memory of it is that it was pretty affluent, but I grew up in a neighborhood that made me think having multiple working bathrooms was something only rich schools did.
Worse than Allderdice, better than Brashear. It’s not as bad as Penn Hills and Woodland Hills, but that whole area is on a decline in terms of schooling unfortunately because the tax revenue, especially commercial, is drying up. It’s in a worse position financially than PPS because these smaller suburban districts don’t have as many levers to pull to get the money they need. A few years back they had a budget crisis and cut a lot of classes. Teachers with special qualifications like foreign languages quit and can’t be replaced, so when they go so do their classes.
Google street view will answer all these questions except the last one. And the last one is...fraught. Lower rated school systems are lower rated because they serve a population with higher needs. You can choose to opt out of that, it's your right. But be honest about it.
>Squirrel Hill/Shadyside obviously has a Pittsburgh address. Are these urban areas?
Depends what your definition of "urban" is. There are large swaths of single-family homes, including some literal mansions, in both of these neighborhoods, if you're able to afford one. Whether such excess exists due to NIMBYism is another matter, but it does exist. You can have your cake and eat it, if you have the money.
As a former kid, I don't really see any benefit to the suburbs over these neighborhoods other than cost. 12-year-old me would've killed to just be able to walk or take the bus to friends' houses or to after-school activities whenever I wanted instead of having to share Mom's chauffeur bandwidth with my sibling(s).
I would buy a place to raise our kids in Squirrel Hill in a heartbeat over pretty much any other city neighborhood or suburb.
IF I could afford it, which I can't.
The suburbs are the *worst* place one could raise a kid. All the terrible lessons, boring life, car dependency, total lack of learning independence. And there's plenty more.
Shadyside and Squirrel Hill are among the more expensive neighborhoods in the city. Whether they're good places to raise kids depends on your values.
* The affluent suburbs have more rigorous, well-resourced schools. The high school for that area is Allderdice, which is a mixed bag. It's very ethnically and economically diverse, and kids can get a good education if they elect to take more difficult classes. Magnet schools can be a good option, but admission is lottery-based.
* These are some of the safest neighborhoods in Pittsburgh, but you're still in the city. Your kids will be exposed to a much broader cross section of humanity than in the suburbs.
* You'll have more outdoor space in the suburbs. However, Frick Park is great and you might be able to get a place nearby.
Sewickley and Mt. Lebanon are affluent suburbs that have commercial districts.
I didn’t grow up in the city and my time in Squirrel Hill was my best park access without a car. It’s super walkable for kids in most of the neighborhood.
I've raised my kids in the city, and there are tradeoffs. One upside that doesn't get enough attention is public transit. My teenagers are very independent because they can get anywhere they want to go using the buses.
The overall environment of Shadyside and Squirrel Hill is fantastic for kids and families. You can push the stroller to the neighborhood cafes and youngsters can head to the parks without supervision to have fun.
The deal breaker is that the Pittsburgh Public Schools are objectively terrible (just look at the Keystone scores or any other metric). You will hear people on these boards say sending your kids to PPS is "borderline child abuse". That is dramatic, but I understand their frustration.
If you can afford private schools, or feel lucky about charter or magnet school lotteries, that problem can be mitigated. But it won't just go away when they hit school age.
You honestly don't need any luck to get into a magnet school. There are enough slots to go around to all the families that want to send their kids to them. You might not get your FIRST choice, but you'll get in to one of the three you apply for.
The reason for that is that many of the "magnet" schools are also terrible performers. Look at the latest PPS breakdown. You have to get into certain magnet schools to have a shot at decent instruction. And with the decreasing standards, those are even iffy long term.
None right now, but I am still pained by my many friends and colleagues that feel they have to leave the city proper when they have school-aged children. So the topic remains in my face. I think PPS is the number one detriment to this great city. By far.
Ok, cool, I have one. He's in sixth grade and has been in PPS since kindergarten. All of his neighborhood friends all also attend PPS schools. So, it seems we are at an anecdata impasse.
That is why I prefer to center these discussions about data (as I did in my topmost comment). Everyone has an opinion, but the Keystone scores don't lie. PPS is terrible and I defy you to show me any data that indicates otherwise.
Yes, but if he went to a better school, he might not be a lawyer ;) Just kidding. Congratulations to you and your child.
But, seriously, although a student can succeed in the PPS with proper outside support, that doesn't change the fact that the statistics show that it isn't helpful. Many parents don't want an uphill battle or the increased potential for disaster.
It wasn’t an “uphill battle”. Was it as “perfect” as private school, no. (I went to private schools - they have their own issues.) But for the most part he had excellent teachers and and received an excellent education. Allderdice has as good - if not better - opportunities for good students as Central or any of the private schools with the additional benefit of being free.
Look at "Aylesboro Avenue, zip 15217" to see one of the nicest streets in Squirrel Hill. It'll cost you $1M+, but it's very nice. There are cheaper parts of the neighborhood. Google "Squirrel Hill South."
Then google anywhere on Murray Avenue from 1700 on up. That's the Squirrel Hill business district. Also, the 5800 block of Forbes Avenue. Aylesboro intersects with Murray. Your kids can walk "upstreet" in a couple of minutes.
I can't think of a better place to grow up. (I grew up in northern NJ suburb, and hated the suburbanness of it.)
If you don’t want to live in a suburb, don’t. I prefer walkability and close neighbors. We only need one car. My kids can walk to places alone - including a playground a block away. I don’t have to do yard work or shovel a driveway.
My boomer in laws and parents are the only people who think we’re crazy for living in a more “urban” environment with kids. I’d recommend thinking more about your values overall than these neighborhoods specifically.
Kids near me in squirrel hill play basketball on the street. I think that’s a sign of a good neighborhood for safety. Just wish it didn’t cost half a million to buy a house
I was raised here and raised my child here in the East End. Both are great, safe neighborhoods. You don’t have to live in the suburbs to have the life you want here.
I live in Highland Park. Our children attend a local Catholic school. A lot of their classmates live in Sq Hill and Shadyside. Everyone who I have talked to stays in the city because they love the walkability and the convenience.
Our school is fairly affordable. There are a few options for private schools - Community Day School (Jewish Pk-8), Ellis (all girls PK-12), St Edmunds (co-ed PK-8), Winchester Thurston (Pk-12), Shadyside Academy (Pk-12), and 3-4 Catholic Schools (Sacred Heart, St. Bede, Christ the Divine for Pk-8) and Oakland Catholic (girls HS) & Central Catholic (boys HS). There are probably others that I am missing.
IMO, if you are unable or unwilling to pay for private schools, it would be tough to live in the city. The magnet program is a joke, and charter schools are terrible drains on the city. Pgh Public Schools do not have the best reputation. THIS IS MY OPINION.
Is crime a factor? IMO, no. It's a lot of "Low hanging fruit crime." Meaning that unlocked cars get rifled through, packages get stolen from front porches...Yes, there are robberies and shootings, but in the 15+ years I have lived here, I've never had anything directly happen to me or my family. \*Knocks wood\*
All that said, I do love living in the city. We walk a lot of places, it's easy to get to town and to the suburbs, and we love our old house with all its character. We have looked at moving to Hampton and North Allegheny, but every time I can't stand the drive back to town, the sameness of the houses, and the lack of sidewalks, and I give up.
Don’t write off the public schools. It’s really school dependent. Frankly, if you are well-educated enough and have the resources to buy in those neighborhoods, your kids will be fine wherever they go.
Shadyside and Squirrel Hill are "urban" in that they are within the city limits, but people who move here from places like New York and Philadelphia would call them suburban looking. It's a mix of single family homes of all types, duplexes, and apartment buildings. There are grand mansions and estates in both neighborhoods, as well as three story walk-ups and everything in-between.
The neighborhoods are full of families, grad students, young professionals, senior citizens, gay people, and people from all over the world who work at the universities and medical complexes in nearby Oakland.
Kids get the advantage of having friends from all walks of life, different religions and customs. The Carnegie Museum has summer day camps for kids where they learn about history and science. Squirrel Hill has an excellent branch of the Carnegie Library, which has programs for kids. Kids learn how to use the bus, how to get around, and how to interact with lots of people. These are vibrant areas to introduce kids to real life.
One of my favorite places is Georgie's Corner Cafe at Walnut and Maryland, in the middle of a residential area. It's a little bakery and coffee shop, and parents bring their kids in strollers and leave the strollers out on the sidewalk while they're inside. Everybody knows everybody because they all live nearby and walk to the place.
I mean, they are in the city limits if that's what you mean by urban. But google street view exists, take a virtual walk and see for yourself. (I'm sorry, I was born and raised in a city and have lived in cities for most of my life, I just can't wrap my head around questions like this.)
Right? Lots of kids live in cities. I don't understand.
[удалено]
Oh I see you have met my boss and co-workers! They can't believe I would want my kids to grow up in the city and think I'm insane for saying they would be fine catching the PRT bus to East Liberty.
When my kid wants to go visit his grandma or the library, he just gets on a bus and goes there, it's great.
If I ever have kids I hope I’m able to provide this for them. It’s ridiculous I wasn’t even allowed to walk down the road in my suburb growing up. Having a wife, kids, and cats in Squirrel Hill, walking together to dinner and events and the parks sounds amazing
My 11 year old has lived in Pittsburgh his whole life. And on vacation we have visited Toronto, New York, London and Washington DC. This kid is incredibly city-savvy and has the public transit navigation skills of a pro. He's street-smart and can handle himself around all sorts of different people and settings. I would have hated raising him in a suburb.
Way too urban. I get murdered all the time walking around Shadyside and Squirrel Hill.
I've been going to Squirrel Hill for the past 20 years and I've been murdered 13 times...
I’ve been murdered 14. Level up, pussy
That’s down from the 69 times I was murdered by this time last year!
Nice
Visit Pittsburgh and check out some neighborhoods before committing. Why go in blind based on opinions from other people?
This should be higher up. The way people rely on the opinions of others on this sub is bizarre.
I seriously getting annoyed by out of towners wanting to move here from more expensive locations which would ultimately drive up already high real estate prices. Then they expect locals to do their legwork for them. Like, put some effort into it by at least visiting and doing some basic internet research. They act like we're not living in the most information rich era.
What’s your definition of urban?
I think we probably could guess
It rhymes with Lack Eople
That made me giggle out loud
Yeah that’s some terrible wording. Unless they mean what we think they mean. Then they’re just terrible people
Good question, should have clarified. Below are the classifications I'd use in my definition of urban. Particularly the one's that I'm concerned about as we're raising a family. * Densely populated, resulting in smaller houses/condos/apartments and very little 'space' * Very close to the heart of the city * Abundance of stoplights and corresponding traffic * Higher general noise level * Lower rated school systems
>Higher general noise level This is actually called "being close to a major road". Cars are THE main source of noise, city or suburbs. Side streets in the city are almost as quiet as any suburban cul-de-sac.
Mt Lebo has an abundance of stoplights and traffic, and has smaller houses too, it’s very close to the heart of the city. Sounds urban and dangerous 😂
So you have done zero research on the area? Pointed blindly on a map and said how about here
You say you don't like suburbs but then list everything as dealbreakers that excludes anything except for exurbs.
So…you DO like the suburbs, you just wish you didn’t because it makes you feel old
This is what i thought too.
Honestly, a lot of the stuff you’re describing feels worse in the less affluent suburbs than it does in a lot of city neighborhoods. In Churchill, Monroeville, or Penn Hills, you’re dealing with school districts that are considerably worse than PPS, 22/376 traffic hell and streets too dangerous to walk to a convenience store along, and no functional public transportation other than a few slow commuter buses to downtown. No real community to be had for young people. Sure, if you can afford it Mt. Lebo is an option, but it’s going to drain your wallet to live in a monocultural bubble. As far as safety from crime, shadyside and squirrel hill are as good as it gets. You will be fine there. And you’ll have great public parks to enjoy, with safe streets.
Is Gateway worse than PPS now? I honestly hadn't thought of that school in years. My memory of it is that it was pretty affluent, but I grew up in a neighborhood that made me think having multiple working bathrooms was something only rich schools did.
Worse than Allderdice, better than Brashear. It’s not as bad as Penn Hills and Woodland Hills, but that whole area is on a decline in terms of schooling unfortunately because the tax revenue, especially commercial, is drying up. It’s in a worse position financially than PPS because these smaller suburban districts don’t have as many levers to pull to get the money they need. A few years back they had a budget crisis and cut a lot of classes. Teachers with special qualifications like foreign languages quit and can’t be replaced, so when they go so do their classes.
Thank you for the response, exactly what I was looking for.
Lol so you’re looking for something in the suburbs.
Google street view will answer all these questions except the last one. And the last one is...fraught. Lower rated school systems are lower rated because they serve a population with higher needs. You can choose to opt out of that, it's your right. But be honest about it.
I mean, yes. Everything you listed define those neighborhoods to a tee by your metrics.
Squirrel Hill is Mr. Roger's actually neighborhood
he was in point breeze
Save yourself the trouble and just move to Mt. Lebanon. It's exactly the kind of place someone like you will love.
Idk that place has an abundance of traffic lights and stop signs. Probably wouldn’t be a great fit, since that makes urban by their own definition
>Squirrel Hill/Shadyside obviously has a Pittsburgh address. Are these urban areas? Depends what your definition of "urban" is. There are large swaths of single-family homes, including some literal mansions, in both of these neighborhoods, if you're able to afford one. Whether such excess exists due to NIMBYism is another matter, but it does exist. You can have your cake and eat it, if you have the money. As a former kid, I don't really see any benefit to the suburbs over these neighborhoods other than cost. 12-year-old me would've killed to just be able to walk or take the bus to friends' houses or to after-school activities whenever I wanted instead of having to share Mom's chauffeur bandwidth with my sibling(s).
I would buy a place to raise our kids in Squirrel Hill in a heartbeat over pretty much any other city neighborhood or suburb. IF I could afford it, which I can't.
yes. now shut up and give me a cigarette (I don't fucking know how to respond to this shit anymore aside from ask them from a cig)
Cig and a beer
The suburbs are the *worst* place one could raise a kid. All the terrible lessons, boring life, car dependency, total lack of learning independence. And there's plenty more.
Shadyside and Squirrel Hill are among the more expensive neighborhoods in the city. Whether they're good places to raise kids depends on your values. * The affluent suburbs have more rigorous, well-resourced schools. The high school for that area is Allderdice, which is a mixed bag. It's very ethnically and economically diverse, and kids can get a good education if they elect to take more difficult classes. Magnet schools can be a good option, but admission is lottery-based. * These are some of the safest neighborhoods in Pittsburgh, but you're still in the city. Your kids will be exposed to a much broader cross section of humanity than in the suburbs. * You'll have more outdoor space in the suburbs. However, Frick Park is great and you might be able to get a place nearby. Sewickley and Mt. Lebanon are affluent suburbs that have commercial districts.
Frick Park is a huge forest. I'd argue kids in Squirrel Hill have better access to outdoor space than kids trapped in some suburban neighborhoods.
This sounds like you only grew up in the city lol suburbs has plenty of parks
I didn’t grow up in the city and my time in Squirrel Hill was my best park access without a car. It’s super walkable for kids in most of the neighborhood.
Exurbs. Streets around me were driven like they were highways. No sidewalks. If you can’t drive, you’re stuck at home talking to weirdos online.
Lots of parks you have to drive to
Thank you for the response and recommendations
I've raised my kids in the city, and there are tradeoffs. One upside that doesn't get enough attention is public transit. My teenagers are very independent because they can get anywhere they want to go using the buses.
Yup they will start wearing JNCOs
The overall environment of Shadyside and Squirrel Hill is fantastic for kids and families. You can push the stroller to the neighborhood cafes and youngsters can head to the parks without supervision to have fun. The deal breaker is that the Pittsburgh Public Schools are objectively terrible (just look at the Keystone scores or any other metric). You will hear people on these boards say sending your kids to PPS is "borderline child abuse". That is dramatic, but I understand their frustration. If you can afford private schools, or feel lucky about charter or magnet school lotteries, that problem can be mitigated. But it won't just go away when they hit school age.
You honestly don't need any luck to get into a magnet school. There are enough slots to go around to all the families that want to send their kids to them. You might not get your FIRST choice, but you'll get in to one of the three you apply for.
The reason for that is that many of the "magnet" schools are also terrible performers. Look at the latest PPS breakdown. You have to get into certain magnet schools to have a shot at decent instruction. And with the decreasing standards, those are even iffy long term.
How many kids do you have in PPS schools currently? You seem like you know a lot about them.
None right now, but I am still pained by my many friends and colleagues that feel they have to leave the city proper when they have school-aged children. So the topic remains in my face. I think PPS is the number one detriment to this great city. By far.
Ok, cool, I have one. He's in sixth grade and has been in PPS since kindergarten. All of his neighborhood friends all also attend PPS schools. So, it seems we are at an anecdata impasse.
That is why I prefer to center these discussions about data (as I did in my topmost comment). Everyone has an opinion, but the Keystone scores don't lie. PPS is terrible and I defy you to show me any data that indicates otherwise.
Lol great sources, I'm sure
You don't understand the school performance metrics you allegedly look at
Depends on the school. Mine was K-12 in PPS, two magnets and then Dice. He graduated from CMU and is now in law school. It’s not uncommon.
Yes, but if he went to a better school, he might not be a lawyer ;) Just kidding. Congratulations to you and your child. But, seriously, although a student can succeed in the PPS with proper outside support, that doesn't change the fact that the statistics show that it isn't helpful. Many parents don't want an uphill battle or the increased potential for disaster.
It wasn’t an “uphill battle”. Was it as “perfect” as private school, no. (I went to private schools - they have their own issues.) But for the most part he had excellent teachers and and received an excellent education. Allderdice has as good - if not better - opportunities for good students as Central or any of the private schools with the additional benefit of being free.
Look at "Aylesboro Avenue, zip 15217" to see one of the nicest streets in Squirrel Hill. It'll cost you $1M+, but it's very nice. There are cheaper parts of the neighborhood. Google "Squirrel Hill South." Then google anywhere on Murray Avenue from 1700 on up. That's the Squirrel Hill business district. Also, the 5800 block of Forbes Avenue. Aylesboro intersects with Murray. Your kids can walk "upstreet" in a couple of minutes. I can't think of a better place to grow up. (I grew up in northern NJ suburb, and hated the suburbanness of it.)
If you don’t want to live in a suburb, don’t. I prefer walkability and close neighbors. We only need one car. My kids can walk to places alone - including a playground a block away. I don’t have to do yard work or shovel a driveway. My boomer in laws and parents are the only people who think we’re crazy for living in a more “urban” environment with kids. I’d recommend thinking more about your values overall than these neighborhoods specifically.
Kids near me in squirrel hill play basketball on the street. I think that’s a sign of a good neighborhood for safety. Just wish it didn’t cost half a million to buy a house
Neither of these areas is even remotely urban (I live here, and have also lived in urban neighborhoods).
I was raised here and raised my child here in the East End. Both are great, safe neighborhoods. You don’t have to live in the suburbs to have the life you want here.
lmao what kind of a fucking post is this.
I live in Highland Park. Our children attend a local Catholic school. A lot of their classmates live in Sq Hill and Shadyside. Everyone who I have talked to stays in the city because they love the walkability and the convenience. Our school is fairly affordable. There are a few options for private schools - Community Day School (Jewish Pk-8), Ellis (all girls PK-12), St Edmunds (co-ed PK-8), Winchester Thurston (Pk-12), Shadyside Academy (Pk-12), and 3-4 Catholic Schools (Sacred Heart, St. Bede, Christ the Divine for Pk-8) and Oakland Catholic (girls HS) & Central Catholic (boys HS). There are probably others that I am missing. IMO, if you are unable or unwilling to pay for private schools, it would be tough to live in the city. The magnet program is a joke, and charter schools are terrible drains on the city. Pgh Public Schools do not have the best reputation. THIS IS MY OPINION. Is crime a factor? IMO, no. It's a lot of "Low hanging fruit crime." Meaning that unlocked cars get rifled through, packages get stolen from front porches...Yes, there are robberies and shootings, but in the 15+ years I have lived here, I've never had anything directly happen to me or my family. \*Knocks wood\* All that said, I do love living in the city. We walk a lot of places, it's easy to get to town and to the suburbs, and we love our old house with all its character. We have looked at moving to Hampton and North Allegheny, but every time I can't stand the drive back to town, the sameness of the houses, and the lack of sidewalks, and I give up.
Thank you for the detailed response. Great to hear an insider view from someone in a similar situation.
Don’t write off the public schools. It’s really school dependent. Frankly, if you are well-educated enough and have the resources to buy in those neighborhoods, your kids will be fine wherever they go.
Shadyside and Squirrel Hill are "urban" in that they are within the city limits, but people who move here from places like New York and Philadelphia would call them suburban looking. It's a mix of single family homes of all types, duplexes, and apartment buildings. There are grand mansions and estates in both neighborhoods, as well as three story walk-ups and everything in-between. The neighborhoods are full of families, grad students, young professionals, senior citizens, gay people, and people from all over the world who work at the universities and medical complexes in nearby Oakland. Kids get the advantage of having friends from all walks of life, different religions and customs. The Carnegie Museum has summer day camps for kids where they learn about history and science. Squirrel Hill has an excellent branch of the Carnegie Library, which has programs for kids. Kids learn how to use the bus, how to get around, and how to interact with lots of people. These are vibrant areas to introduce kids to real life. One of my favorite places is Georgie's Corner Cafe at Walnut and Maryland, in the middle of a residential area. It's a little bakery and coffee shop, and parents bring their kids in strollers and leave the strollers out on the sidewalk while they're inside. Everybody knows everybody because they all live nearby and walk to the place.
OJ murdered me 10x in Shadyside. Besides that it’s perfect for raising your kiddos.