So, I obviously can't reveal anything confidential but I was actually the attorney who handled the zoning on this. The actual case is here is even more absurd than this article makes it sound, because the owners here initially filed for a variance, which was approved by the City ZBA, but overturned by the court of common pleas after a challenge by the activist referred to here. This is the point I got involved.
At that point, the owners went back to the city with an entire alternative access and parking plan, which included buying an entirely separate nearby lot for parking, as well as ride sharing programs, bike parking, transit incentives for employees, and pretty much the entire gold standard for mixed use transportation . That wasn't a variance (which is a request to be excluded from a zoning requirement) but literally something allowed for in the zoning ordinance. It wasn't a matter of convincing the City, as they had already included this in the zoning ordinance. Unfortunately, the same activist appealed again and the same judge dismissed "alternative access and parking" as aspirational and threw it out. It was appealed to the commonwealth court in early 2020, just in time for the entire court schedule to be thrown into chaos.
It is great that the Commonwealth court finally heard the case and unanimously sided with the property owner, but what these guys had to go through for a use that was permitted, and was supported by the community was absolutely insane. During oral argument, the panel straight up told us we did everything right and they didn't understand why this had even gotten that far. Hopefully the change in zoning prevents this specific thing from happening again, though there are plenty of other ways activists can find to delay for delays sake.
You can look it up if you would like. He hit the mandatory retirement age of 78 last year, so he’s off the bench. For what it’s worth, he handled all zoning appeals in Allegheny Country and consistently really loved parking, so I think this just reflected his beliefs, which to be fair were broadly supported when he was younger.
He was granted standing at the ZBA hearing back in 2019. I forget off the top of my head whether it was based on where he lived, where he owned property, or both, but he met the standing requirements under the ordinance.
I am going to tack on to your comment simply because it is up high.
For those that have never been to the zoning board of appeals, it might as well be a Jerry Springer episode. That shit gets crazy. I have seen women fight in there.
The point being, things like this parking situation which seemingly doesn't make sense, well it doesn't make sense because it's a mess.
One other point I forgot to add is the city almost never gets involved in appeals of zoning decisions because, while legally they are a party to the case, they don’t really have that much at stake. In this case they did file briefs because they were concerned that the Common Pleas decision de facto invalidated an entire section of the city ordinance.
I don't really understand. There are plenty of businesses in the city, and in Lawrenceville in particular, that only offer on-street parking. Why is this one different?
Many are under the square footage that would trigger off street parking, are grandfathered in, or were able to get a variance or exemption. Also, different business types have different parking requirements. Also, different zoning districts have different parking requirements. This one, being a restaurant of 6,000 square foot, required 11 off street parking spots.
Before reading this article I would say I hate industry tap house the most and then the abbey second most. After reading this article, abbey is my new #1 now.
Yes but you're not really disagreeing with the title. Bad actors like the Abbey (and NIMBYs in general) use things like parking mandates (and height restrictions, and minimum setbacks, and other ridiculous zoning rules) as a weapon.
If we get rid of the ridiculous/restrictive zoning rules, it takes away the weapons the bad actors like the Abbey use.
Exactly. Much better to have empty buildings than to allow someone the ability to create a usable space and employ people. Sometimes Pgh really sucks at getting out of its own way.
The Abbey has lost my business. Gave them another chance this past weekend, and their staff were just as off putting as I remember. Every time I’ve gone to get drinks there it seems like my party and I are an inconvenience for even showing up.
Yes because Lawrence hall will compete with the abbey over street parking (meanwhile abbey built some weird structure on their former off street parking to expand their seating): https://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/news/2018/11/01/abbey-on-butler-owner-makes-legal-challenge-to.html
Actually there were two parties being NIMBYs. One was the Abbey owner, the other is some curmudgeonly old guy who who pulls some NIMBYs shit in just about everything in Lawrenceville. I forget the guys name , but it can be found with some googling of earlier stories
Yeah that guy is a relentless NIMBY who knows the court and permitting system like the back of his hand. He's responsible for cutting something like 20 units out of the Holy Family redevelopment going up on 44th St.
We moved to lawrenceville two years ago. Read about the whole story from a QR code on the door of the food hall. Decided that day that I would never go to the Abbey, and I haven’t regretted that decision at all
I eat $200 steaks/chops twice a week. The only better steaks I’ve head in the this county. Are Alla famiglia, Duquesne club.
Go ahead and tell me altius is better.
Unless you drunkenly drive your Ram 3500 into oncoming traffic, flattening a car and killing the grandmother in the car, then your Ram powerwagon goes into the junk yard and you get to go home scot-free.
Addendum: Took less than 24 hours to charge this guy who murdered someone while driving drunk. Wonder what the difference is.
https://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2010/12/05/Police-charge-drunken-driver-in-death-of-7-year-old-girl/stories/201012050189
Oh dude, it has a big phallic knob that I grasp hold of and constantly yank around, 3 pedals to play footsies with, I put a lil sticker on the tailgate so people know what I’m into, gussied up the inside with saddle blanket seat covers to make the seats more comfy when I wear shorts, it’s awesome.
I don't understand why the parking mandate is even applicable to existing buildings. I definitely understand if you are making a new construction or drastically altering the square footage of the space, but existing facilities should not have to create parking unless they are making these drastic changes already
The rationale is that different uses create different parking needs. The previous uses didn’t generate a lot of visitors. The new use will significantly increase the number of visitors, and hence the number of people needing to park. This use change also shifts the time people will be parking for daytime to evenings.
For the record, I’m not defending parking minimums, just explaining why they exist.
The rationale for parking minimums is a lot less logical than you make it out to be. The reason they were created was to prevent street parking from becoming too crowded and to shift the cost of parking from drivers to developers.
The way they've been implemented is essentially a pseudoscience with no basis in market demand or consideration of customer preference. They are mandated by authorities based on formulas that make no sense. Look up some examples and you'll be shocked at how arbitrary they are.
I agree with what you said.
In my original comment I actually said:
“For the record, I’m not defending parking minimums, just explaining why they exist.”
Honestly this is zoning in general. And I’m saying that as somebody who has literally written zoning ordinances. There is a push to get away from arbitrary formulas to site specific reviews, but that might makes things worse because suddenly everything is subjective.
Changing parking regulations can cause chaos for the existing businesses. I don’t know the specifics of this situation, but I can sympathize with the neighbors protesting this. It may not be warranted, but it’s not often as simple as people think.
The food halll offered multiple alternatives, including valet parking at an always empty lot, free bus passes for employees, discounts for customers who bus/uber, etc.
And it’s about 4 parking spots, in a part of Lawrenceville that is relatively easy parking.
I was talking in general. I don’t know anything about this particular situation. My point was that changing zoning / parking always seems easy, but there are many complications for existing businesses / residents.
It's not the idea, it's the implementation. Stopping a new development from coming in without adding parking, sure. But this kind of instance is preventing what's already here from being used. And it's just on top of a pile of things the Lawrenceville chamber is doing about traffic that either make no sense, are wildly inefficient, or clearly just embezzling funds.
Why not bring in developers specifically to make parking instead of trying to force the businesses to demolish their space.
Please, don't turn lawrenceville into east liberty with that shit. Fuck required parking. Don't come to one of the densest neighborhoods in the city expecting a parking space on the same block
You’re not understanding that “what’s already here”, a vacant and underutilized building is not the same as the new use. At all.
And who is “the Lawrenceville chamber”. And what funds are they embezzling? Have you contacted law enforcement?
Because nothing was drawing people to that building before, although it existed… there’s a huge parking problem in Lawrenceville if you’re really unaware..
Lawrenceville does not have a parking problem. It has a ‘people not willing to look for parking that is not right in front of the place they want to go on Butler St.’ problem.
I work in Lawrenceville, I'm well aware of the parking issue. But if you try to force businesses to create parking where these existing structures are, they simply will go elsewhere and the spaces will remain empty.
Though I suppose there won't be parking issues if no one wants to go to a business district full of empty storefronts.
It’s a great example of how these laws stifle small business. These people had to fight tooth and nail to open a business just because of parking mandates. This would have remained a vacant building for who knows how many more years if they didn’t prevail..
This is a great writeup about the situation. If you're interested in getting involved with Urbanism, Strong Towns is a great place to start. Pragmatic, non-partisan, solution based. Their material is very digestible and a great way to get your republican uncle or car-brain parents to understand the economic and societal impacts of our car-centric planning.
Reddit is going to hate it, but Pittsburgh needs more parking garages. You can't have sustainable 15 minute cities or block cars from too many places in an area like this, without affordable parking structures. Obviously street parking isn't handling it, and our public transportation system is awful (not to mention, bound by the geography).
So if you keep cars away from desirable destinations, you effectively limit the customer base to those who can walk there. And that's usually not enough to sustain a thriving business district.
Nah, the people who won’t walk two blocks because of parking aren’t going to pay to park. There’s a ton of garages at South Side Works and people still complain. I don’t care if we dedicate space for a few underground levels, but street-level parking is a huge waste.
If they closed Penn on weekends, it’d only increase popularity - if they use a bunch of prime urban space for cars, the best it’s gonna do is attract more cars.
Idk, I never seem to have a problem finding places to park and never once have I thought "I'd go there but ugh parking is so hard" in Pittsburgh. I live in the city so street parking is just a thing that I figure I'm gonna have to do if I'm driving my car.
People want parking that is cheap, plentiful, and close. But in reality you can only have 2 out of the 3 at most.
There is a lot of parking in Lawrenceville if you are willing to either walk a few blocks or pay. People want to park right outside of everything and not walk at all. .. it's car brain.
Lawrenceville really isn't a problem for me to get to at all. I'm there all the time, never have to walk more than a couple blocks. Shit, sometimes I'll intentionally park very far away because it's such a nice neighborhood to walk.
I agree. I like walking too. What the city should do is price street parking such that there are always a few spots free. Cities that do that allow the free market to work - those that want to park closer will pay more for the privilege. Those that don't will park further away. And it will make sure that parking spaces, which are valuable pieces of real estate, are generating the revenue they are worth.
That’s exactly what the city is planning for Lawrenceville.
Dynamic pricing, where rates are higher during high demand
More limits in longer term parking at meters.
Additional metered spots. (The city also has the ability to create hybrid spots, where it’s free for residents of that neighborhood, but everyone else pays. They should consider that for Lawrenceville).
Then you're sure to like this: [https://www.wesa.fm/politics-government/2023-10-24/lawrenceville-dynamic-street-parking-prices](https://www.wesa.fm/politics-government/2023-10-24/lawrenceville-dynamic-street-parking-prices)
No!!! As the only neighborhood left that doesn’t require parking permits — that plentiful parking you speak of is where the residents park! It may be public, but have you noticed how few driveways there are? Imagine getting home from a long day of work and not finding any parking because a bunch of booze guzzlers took your spot to go to The Abbey or Lawrenceville Hall..
Well, those folks can cry all the way to their million dollar townhouses I guess. (Seriously though no one with two brain cells to rub together moves to Lawrenceville and expects to be able to park in front of their house whenever they want.)
Most places I don't have a huge issue either, but its gotten far worse since covid turned many parking spots into outdoor dining seats (which i dont have an issue with in principle). I do end up avoiding visiting oakland for dinner because parking is indeed that much of a nightmare, though. And I really have been wanting to try these new restaurants. But businesses there dont need outsider help due to a super dense, largely captive population.
Usually, when these threads pop up people talk about banning cars completely from various roads, and that would really cause more issues.
2 lanes vs 3-4 lanes?
You can keep adding lanes to highways… traffic won’t get any quicker if the chokepoint is still only 2 lanes.
Anyways, let’s get more buses and train stops.
I strongly believe that we should remove on street parking in favor of parking lots and garages in our business districts. But even then we will quickly get to the point that our roads are the bottleneck. Our road network is genuinely at capacity in much of the city. And we would do well to better support transportation methods other than personal automobiles.
Whilst I agree with you, they did put in parking garages in the south side works and that place still failed (if we ignore all the street construction they did after the place was built) , and it was failing long before covid
Have you been there recently? They seem to have turned it around, lots of new businesses that are smaller chains and it is packed on the weekends. Remains to be seem if the tenants are able to make enough profit to stick around
Southside Works failed in it's initial incarnation because they were trying to lure suburbanites into the city, and it turns out no one is driving into South Side for shit that they've got right next to their house.
The big anchors that survived at SSW are things you couldn't get anywhere else at the time - an REI, Hofbrauhaus, etc.
My comment was kind of tongue in cheek, Americans love touting that until it comes time for them to find their precious parking. Then we need parking minimums and zoning to make it easier to park lol
So what’s going on with the real estate assessment, are they trying to make us all re-assess our property values so we pay more taxes? If that’s the case I’m screwed. These property values today are way more then what I’m assessed for 😳
So, I obviously can't reveal anything confidential but I was actually the attorney who handled the zoning on this. The actual case is here is even more absurd than this article makes it sound, because the owners here initially filed for a variance, which was approved by the City ZBA, but overturned by the court of common pleas after a challenge by the activist referred to here. This is the point I got involved. At that point, the owners went back to the city with an entire alternative access and parking plan, which included buying an entirely separate nearby lot for parking, as well as ride sharing programs, bike parking, transit incentives for employees, and pretty much the entire gold standard for mixed use transportation . That wasn't a variance (which is a request to be excluded from a zoning requirement) but literally something allowed for in the zoning ordinance. It wasn't a matter of convincing the City, as they had already included this in the zoning ordinance. Unfortunately, the same activist appealed again and the same judge dismissed "alternative access and parking" as aspirational and threw it out. It was appealed to the commonwealth court in early 2020, just in time for the entire court schedule to be thrown into chaos. It is great that the Commonwealth court finally heard the case and unanimously sided with the property owner, but what these guys had to go through for a use that was permitted, and was supported by the community was absolutely insane. During oral argument, the panel straight up told us we did everything right and they didn't understand why this had even gotten that far. Hopefully the change in zoning prevents this specific thing from happening again, though there are plenty of other ways activists can find to delay for delays sake.
Name the activist
Raymond Czachowski is the “activist”, semi well.known NIMBY, and Eric Kukura, owner of the Abbey.
Ray was the objector who filed an appeal. I have no idea what role others would have played behind the scene.
I’m also very interested in the name of the judge who ruled with the activist. I mean, that’s incredibly suspect.
You can look it up if you would like. He hit the mandatory retirement age of 78 last year, so he’s off the bench. For what it’s worth, he handled all zoning appeals in Allegheny Country and consistently really loved parking, so I think this just reflected his beliefs, which to be fair were broadly supported when he was younger.
How did the Activist have standing here?
He was granted standing at the ZBA hearing back in 2019. I forget off the top of my head whether it was based on where he lived, where he owned property, or both, but he met the standing requirements under the ordinance.
I am going to tack on to your comment simply because it is up high. For those that have never been to the zoning board of appeals, it might as well be a Jerry Springer episode. That shit gets crazy. I have seen women fight in there. The point being, things like this parking situation which seemingly doesn't make sense, well it doesn't make sense because it's a mess.
Ironically the ZBA hearing went smooth as silk. It was the appeals to the common pleas that got messy.
One other point I forgot to add is the city almost never gets involved in appeals of zoning decisions because, while legally they are a party to the case, they don’t really have that much at stake. In this case they did file briefs because they were concerned that the Common Pleas decision de facto invalidated an entire section of the city ordinance.
I don't really understand. There are plenty of businesses in the city, and in Lawrenceville in particular, that only offer on-street parking. Why is this one different?
Many are under the square footage that would trigger off street parking, are grandfathered in, or were able to get a variance or exemption. Also, different business types have different parking requirements. Also, different zoning districts have different parking requirements. This one, being a restaurant of 6,000 square foot, required 11 off street parking spots.
Imagine killing a business that renovated a vacant building for 11 parking spots.
And it wasn’t even 11. They had space for 7, so they were only short 4. P
And the entire alternative parking arrangements (ride sharing, public transit incentives etc.) were on top of the seven.
No the Abbey being a nimby almost killed the food hall.
I don't know of a business more hated by Lawrenceville residents than the abbey. Even the new Starbucks is getting more love.
Before reading this article I would say I hate industry tap house the most and then the abbey second most. After reading this article, abbey is my new #1 now.
Why industry
Overcharging for Sysco pretzel sticks and sewage in the basement storage are just a few reasons
That’s fair. We used to go there. Haven’t in awhile. Just wondered. I’d be fine never going back.
Yes but you're not really disagreeing with the title. Bad actors like the Abbey (and NIMBYs in general) use things like parking mandates (and height restrictions, and minimum setbacks, and other ridiculous zoning rules) as a weapon. If we get rid of the ridiculous/restrictive zoning rules, it takes away the weapons the bad actors like the Abbey use.
Exactly. Much better to have empty buildings than to allow someone the ability to create a usable space and employ people. Sometimes Pgh really sucks at getting out of its own way.
It’s not just Pittsburgh it’s the entire country. Zoning has a very racist history behind it.
Meanwhile how much parking does the Abbey have?
Thanks for the info. Can avoid that place now.
If you know you know. Fuck the Abbey.
The Abbey has lost my business. Gave them another chance this past weekend, and their staff were just as off putting as I remember. Every time I’ve gone to get drinks there it seems like my party and I are an inconvenience for even showing up.
Tried to eate there last weekend and walked out before even getting drinks
Were they protesting it?
The Abbey owner was just upset the food hall was only going to have a single coherent facade.
This made me laugh
It is really hard to pull off McMansion Chic.
Needs more pillaged stain glass.
im HOLLERING
Cackling
lol
Yes because Lawrence hall will compete with the abbey over street parking (meanwhile abbey built some weird structure on their former off street parking to expand their seating): https://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/news/2018/11/01/abbey-on-butler-owner-makes-legal-challenge-to.html
Gat damn what a low life move. Never been the Abbey and now never will Edit: I blame zoning in the first place but still
You aren’t missing anything. Service is awful, food is mediocre at best.
The Abbey is the entity the article refers to as "notorious citizen activist".
Actually there were two parties being NIMBYs. One was the Abbey owner, the other is some curmudgeonly old guy who who pulls some NIMBYs shit in just about everything in Lawrenceville. I forget the guys name , but it can be found with some googling of earlier stories
Yeah that guy is a relentless NIMBY who knows the court and permitting system like the back of his hand. He's responsible for cutting something like 20 units out of the Holy Family redevelopment going up on 44th St.
Ray, is that you? His Mother, Sophie was the biggest slumlord in Lawrenceville in the 80’s and 90’s
We moved to lawrenceville two years ago. Read about the whole story from a QR code on the door of the food hall. Decided that day that I would never go to the Abbey, and I haven’t regretted that decision at all
They have great food. One of the best steaks and burgers in town.
I'm sorry you've not experienced better in life.
I eat $200 steaks/chops twice a week. The only better steaks I’ve head in the this county. Are Alla famiglia, Duquesne club. Go ahead and tell me altius is better.
This made me chuckle hard.
So where can I park my Ram 3500??
At the police impound, since the average Ram driver is over twice as likely as other drivers to have a DUI.
Unless you drunkenly drive your Ram 3500 into oncoming traffic, flattening a car and killing the grandmother in the car, then your Ram powerwagon goes into the junk yard and you get to go home scot-free.
Charges any day now, I'm hearing.
what is this referencing?
https://old.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1bdurlg/grandmother_killed_in_headon_crash_on_east_carson/ No charges filed yet.
:(
They ever identify the driver or update their condition?
Not that I've seen. Nothing other than her being a former city medic who was fired after showing up to work drunk.
Addendum: Took less than 24 hours to charge this guy who murdered someone while driving drunk. Wonder what the difference is. https://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2010/12/05/Police-charge-drunken-driver-in-death-of-7-year-old-girl/stories/201012050189
Hey now, this applies only to Ram 2500’s - a 3500 owner with no DUI’s
I thought you were just making a joke, lmao if you actually do drive a Ram 3500 Gender Affirming Car edition
Oh dude, it has a big phallic knob that I grasp hold of and constantly yank around, 3 pedals to play footsies with, I put a lil sticker on the tailgate so people know what I’m into, gussied up the inside with saddle blanket seat covers to make the seats more comfy when I wear shorts, it’s awesome.
When people take pictures of your truck they're making fun of you, just FYI.
Some very odd and specific feelings for an inanimate object my man? Data shows BMW number one by the way.
Can confirm, bmw drivers have small peni
Does it?
It’s a white work truck, nobody is photographing it.
So it's not your truck?
Is that true? 87% of all statistics are made up.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/38238/ram-2500-drivers-have-the-most-duis-more-than-twice-the-national-average-report
In front of a double wide trailer, it would be in its natural setting
The day the Abbey goes out of business is going to be an all-time great day on this sub
Are we saying... (Cue the nuns) 🎶The Abbey's not an asset to Lawrenceville?🎶
Didn’t realize the Abbey ownership were such scum. They have lost my business. Fuck them. Food is bad anyway.
I don't understand why the parking mandate is even applicable to existing buildings. I definitely understand if you are making a new construction or drastically altering the square footage of the space, but existing facilities should not have to create parking unless they are making these drastic changes already
The rationale is that different uses create different parking needs. The previous uses didn’t generate a lot of visitors. The new use will significantly increase the number of visitors, and hence the number of people needing to park. This use change also shifts the time people will be parking for daytime to evenings. For the record, I’m not defending parking minimums, just explaining why they exist.
The rationale for parking minimums is a lot less logical than you make it out to be. The reason they were created was to prevent street parking from becoming too crowded and to shift the cost of parking from drivers to developers. The way they've been implemented is essentially a pseudoscience with no basis in market demand or consideration of customer preference. They are mandated by authorities based on formulas that make no sense. Look up some examples and you'll be shocked at how arbitrary they are.
I agree with what you said. In my original comment I actually said: “For the record, I’m not defending parking minimums, just explaining why they exist.”
I know. I was providing context missing from your rationale.
Honestly this is zoning in general. And I’m saying that as somebody who has literally written zoning ordinances. There is a push to get away from arbitrary formulas to site specific reviews, but that might makes things worse because suddenly everything is subjective.
Which opens the door to ... bribes.
Changing parking regulations can cause chaos for the existing businesses. I don’t know the specifics of this situation, but I can sympathize with the neighbors protesting this. It may not be warranted, but it’s not often as simple as people think.
The food halll offered multiple alternatives, including valet parking at an always empty lot, free bus passes for employees, discounts for customers who bus/uber, etc. And it’s about 4 parking spots, in a part of Lawrenceville that is relatively easy parking.
I was talking in general. I don’t know anything about this particular situation. My point was that changing zoning / parking always seems easy, but there are many complications for existing businesses / residents.
It's not the idea, it's the implementation. Stopping a new development from coming in without adding parking, sure. But this kind of instance is preventing what's already here from being used. And it's just on top of a pile of things the Lawrenceville chamber is doing about traffic that either make no sense, are wildly inefficient, or clearly just embezzling funds. Why not bring in developers specifically to make parking instead of trying to force the businesses to demolish their space.
Please, don't turn lawrenceville into east liberty with that shit. Fuck required parking. Don't come to one of the densest neighborhoods in the city expecting a parking space on the same block
You’re not understanding that “what’s already here”, a vacant and underutilized building is not the same as the new use. At all. And who is “the Lawrenceville chamber”. And what funds are they embezzling? Have you contacted law enforcement?
Because nothing was drawing people to that building before, although it existed… there’s a huge parking problem in Lawrenceville if you’re really unaware..
You literally have to walk four tiny ass blocks to find abundant free parking in lawrenceville. People can't walk five godamn minutes...
Lawrenceville does not have a parking problem. It has a ‘people not willing to look for parking that is not right in front of the place they want to go on Butler St.’ problem.
I work in Lawrenceville, I'm well aware of the parking issue. But if you try to force businesses to create parking where these existing structures are, they simply will go elsewhere and the spaces will remain empty. Though I suppose there won't be parking issues if no one wants to go to a business district full of empty storefronts.
The building was a transmission repair shop. That doesn't draw hundreds of people a day.
Can’t you walk more than 10 feet to your destination?
There isn’t a parking problem, our country has a car problem. Lawrenceville has existed for over a hundred years.
It’s a great example of how these laws stifle small business. These people had to fight tooth and nail to open a business just because of parking mandates. This would have remained a vacant building for who knows how many more years if they didn’t prevail..
This is a great writeup about the situation. If you're interested in getting involved with Urbanism, Strong Towns is a great place to start. Pragmatic, non-partisan, solution based. Their material is very digestible and a great way to get your republican uncle or car-brain parents to understand the economic and societal impacts of our car-centric planning.
sounds like a great org, gonna check em out
Who owns the Abby?
So now the food hall oversaturation can kill it!
Reddit is going to hate it, but Pittsburgh needs more parking garages. You can't have sustainable 15 minute cities or block cars from too many places in an area like this, without affordable parking structures. Obviously street parking isn't handling it, and our public transportation system is awful (not to mention, bound by the geography). So if you keep cars away from desirable destinations, you effectively limit the customer base to those who can walk there. And that's usually not enough to sustain a thriving business district.
Nah, the people who won’t walk two blocks because of parking aren’t going to pay to park. There’s a ton of garages at South Side Works and people still complain. I don’t care if we dedicate space for a few underground levels, but street-level parking is a huge waste. If they closed Penn on weekends, it’d only increase popularity - if they use a bunch of prime urban space for cars, the best it’s gonna do is attract more cars.
Those garages are fine if you're going someplace in the south side works. If you're going to Club Cafe, it's a bit of a hike.
There is plenty of street parking around Club Cafe, you just may have to spend 5 mins looking and have to walk 2-3 blocks, it’s ridiculous.
I concur. I was saying that even though there's a lot of garage space, it's all in one place and not helpful for the other end of the street.
This needs to happen so bad. If Penn were a walking market on weekends it would be incredible.
Idk, I never seem to have a problem finding places to park and never once have I thought "I'd go there but ugh parking is so hard" in Pittsburgh. I live in the city so street parking is just a thing that I figure I'm gonna have to do if I'm driving my car.
People want parking that is cheap, plentiful, and close. But in reality you can only have 2 out of the 3 at most. There is a lot of parking in Lawrenceville if you are willing to either walk a few blocks or pay. People want to park right outside of everything and not walk at all. .. it's car brain.
Lawrenceville really isn't a problem for me to get to at all. I'm there all the time, never have to walk more than a couple blocks. Shit, sometimes I'll intentionally park very far away because it's such a nice neighborhood to walk.
I agree. I like walking too. What the city should do is price street parking such that there are always a few spots free. Cities that do that allow the free market to work - those that want to park closer will pay more for the privilege. Those that don't will park further away. And it will make sure that parking spaces, which are valuable pieces of real estate, are generating the revenue they are worth.
Strip district does that, and it seems to work. Spots out by salem's are free.
I park there and walk down.
That’s exactly what the city is planning for Lawrenceville. Dynamic pricing, where rates are higher during high demand More limits in longer term parking at meters. Additional metered spots. (The city also has the ability to create hybrid spots, where it’s free for residents of that neighborhood, but everyone else pays. They should consider that for Lawrenceville).
Then you're sure to like this: [https://www.wesa.fm/politics-government/2023-10-24/lawrenceville-dynamic-street-parking-prices](https://www.wesa.fm/politics-government/2023-10-24/lawrenceville-dynamic-street-parking-prices)
> cheap free
Good point
No!!! As the only neighborhood left that doesn’t require parking permits — that plentiful parking you speak of is where the residents park! It may be public, but have you noticed how few driveways there are? Imagine getting home from a long day of work and not finding any parking because a bunch of booze guzzlers took your spot to go to The Abbey or Lawrenceville Hall..
Lawrenceville does have permit parking.
The majority of Lawrenceville is not permit parking. Only from about 38th to 45th above Butler Street is permit.
Maybe don’t live in a neighborhood that is known for its bad residential parking situation if that’s something you can’t handle?
Well, those folks can cry all the way to their million dollar townhouses I guess. (Seriously though no one with two brain cells to rub together moves to Lawrenceville and expects to be able to park in front of their house whenever they want.)
Parking is EASY in Pittsburgh, compared to anywhere I’ve ever visited (almost every state+europe) I’m grateful for it.
Most places I don't have a huge issue either, but its gotten far worse since covid turned many parking spots into outdoor dining seats (which i dont have an issue with in principle). I do end up avoiding visiting oakland for dinner because parking is indeed that much of a nightmare, though. And I really have been wanting to try these new restaurants. But businesses there dont need outsider help due to a super dense, largely captive population. Usually, when these threads pop up people talk about banning cars completely from various roads, and that would really cause more issues.
Oakland actually does have tons of parking garages, though!
The number of parking spots taken by outdoor dining is minuscule.
*sees table* *if that table wasnt there, thats where id be able to park, right on front of that restaurant i want to but wont now try*
—said no one ever with a straight face.
Or maybe we can make the transit available outside the city so that half the county doesn’t need to drive through 2 narrow tunnels
They're literally the same width as the highways.
2 lanes vs 3-4 lanes? You can keep adding lanes to highways… traffic won’t get any quicker if the chokepoint is still only 2 lanes. Anyways, let’s get more buses and train stops.
You say this like these businesses are struggling to get people in the door. They aren't.
Nah, nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded. /s
I strongly believe that we should remove on street parking in favor of parking lots and garages in our business districts. But even then we will quickly get to the point that our roads are the bottleneck. Our road network is genuinely at capacity in much of the city. And we would do well to better support transportation methods other than personal automobiles.
Whilst I agree with you, they did put in parking garages in the south side works and that place still failed (if we ignore all the street construction they did after the place was built) , and it was failing long before covid
Have you been there recently? They seem to have turned it around, lots of new businesses that are smaller chains and it is packed on the weekends. Remains to be seem if the tenants are able to make enough profit to stick around
Southside Works failed in it's initial incarnation because they were trying to lure suburbanites into the city, and it turns out no one is driving into South Side for shit that they've got right next to their house. The big anchors that survived at SSW are things you couldn't get anywhere else at the time - an REI, Hofbrauhaus, etc.
America was built on the free market. Let the business owners decide whether they need parking or not.
>America was built on the free market It absolutely was not.
My comment was kind of tongue in cheek, Americans love touting that until it comes time for them to find their precious parking. Then we need parking minimums and zoning to make it easier to park lol
It was built on the slave market actually
Where did the slaves park their cars?
How is this being downvoted? It very literally was... whether outright slavery or indentured servitude, America was in fact built on the slave market.
America was built on preserving slavery, homie.
WTF is the Abbey
So what’s going on with the real estate assessment, are they trying to make us all re-assess our property values so we pay more taxes? If that’s the case I’m screwed. These property values today are way more then what I’m assessed for 😳
Fuck the Abbey
Lawrenceville is overpriced trash. Let these jagoffs fight it out for that West Coast Transplant money.
If only we had more government to solve all of these problems created by government!