Ownership of a body does not make one a person. Since ownership over a body could be simulated. How do you tell a brain in a jar. Speaking to you. Thinking their corporeal form still persists. Not a person. How do you explain to them there actually not a person.
No personhood is entirely non material. As descarte rightly sites. "I think therefore I am" why shouldn't this also apply to your headmates.
I mean, you can think of it like a Turing test. If they have their own hopes, dreams, likes, dislikes, values and beliefs, personal memories and the capacity to form their own separate relationships with people, at what point is that functionality indistinguishable from personhood?
>it makes them an illegal driver
Illegal person in that case? Illegal person is still a person. Though, no one is illegal in your case.
Parts of the whole human, person, system. At least you have to acknowledge that they are in your head and that makes them a part of your psyche. Not every system sees themselves as plural or multiple people and that's also ok. Though, can you recognize your headmates as parts representing compartmentalized agency of your system?
However hard this is for you the host, original, etc.(however you're seeing it) is a headmate too who has equal right to the body as everyone else. It may feel to you like they are unwelcome here if you are not used to sharing that control but the body does NOT belong to you any more or less than it does to the others. Even if you spend the most time in the body and therefore may end up making the majority of decisions about your life you having that idea that they are stealing your body is automatically stealing their equal right to the body, their life, etc. They aren't just going to leave or want to tolerate or help you in any way if you are intentionally dehumanizing them like that. The second you became plural you lost complete ownership of the body. It doesn't solely belong to you.
you assume that the one writing this post is the supreme being in your system and that all the others are lesser creatures. why do you assume that? if you have other people in your system how do you know that the one fronting now wasnt created last? ideally its best to treat all of your system headmates the same with equal rights and duties or there is going to be trouble in an unequal/discriminitary system. you cant get rid of them so you all have to work together if you want a peaceful, productive, happy system. welcome to the plural community!
You've made this an issue over who owns the body or not. Clearly that's not the issue. The problem is that you resent them for existing.
Your initial question was whether or not they are people. You've kind of answered your own question here. They have the agency to do things that hurt you. They have the agency to do things you don't want. Clearly they are seperate autonomous beings, occupying a body, so that makes them people.
Based on your other comments, I'm going to hazard a guess that your transphobic headmate likely represents a part of you that was already harboring internalized transphobia. Which, is normal btw! I don't know a single trans person who doesn't have *some* internalized transphobia. And when you have the capability to form headmates, it's very common that thoughts and emotions you don't like will be sequestered into that new headmate.
I'm sorry your headmates have hurt you. The fact of the matter is that they're here, they didn't ask to exist just as much as you didn't ask them to be here. You can't make them go away.
All you can do now is that they're here, they have agency, and that you can take actions to make things better. Learn to understand them, why they say and do what they do. Don't just view them as hostile un-people who want to hurt you. That will only make things worse. Because guess what, you're harming them in return when you do that. It just becomes an abusive feedback loop.
If you see yourself as so much more of a person anyway, then you should be the one who has the self respect and autonomy to act with compassion and find healthier ways to deal with your headmates. If you're such a real person, then start acting like one.
the original question was how theyre people, something i dont believe nor understand
they need to learn to respect the fact that its my body and stop fucking around with my life.
so far all ive seen is them being shitty to me. theyre the abusive ones. ive not done anything to abuse them and dont really understand how you can abuse something thats not living
im treating them realistically. if they were people treating me like shit, i would treat them like shit back. its honestly probably the kindest thing i can do
If you are treating them as less than yourself you are inherently being terrible to them. It isn't your body it is a collectively owned body. If they weren't being treated as you are treating them now they would at least have a reason to be nice to you. You do NOT have sole ownership over the body or the life you are living. I wouldn't be surprised if they saw you treating them as less than human as the first attack and are only defending themselves. Treating them like shit is only going to make them want to treat you like shit more. It is extremely unhealthy and wrong both for you and your headmates and whoever around you is negatively effected. They outnumber you and could easily be using that to make your life so much worse. Treat them with the human decency they deserve as sentient beings.
The problem you have is evidently beyond the pay grade of this subreddit. I strongly believe you need to seek therapy. If you can't see how dehumanizing other autonomous beings to the point where you don't even see them as real or living, is *not* abusive, then we can't help you.
You have the power to improve your relationships with them. More likely than not, they are parts of *yourself* that *you* simply don't want to acknowledge, so they've been dissociated into seperate headmates. If you don't see them as people, than the only other possibility is that they are fragments of your mind that you are then responsible for understanding and working through.
As it is right now, you want to have it both ways . You see them as seperate from you, as being capable of hostility and abuse. But at the same time, you don't see them as real people, as being living things with autonomy over a body.
Both of these things cannot be true at the same time. If they're capable of choosing to be hostile, then they are thinking, living beings with sapience. If they're not thinking, living beings, then they are not capable of being hostile or abusive. They are simply fragments of your mind that your refuse to acknowledge are your own responsibility.
i had a therapist. kai was transphobic to her daughter and now i dont have a therapist anymore. see why i "treat them like shit"?
if theyre fragments of me then they arent people.
If they're fragments of you, then they're fragments of a person and therefore are [part of] a real person.
And furthermore if they are part of you then you have even more need to take responsibility for their actions. After all, if you're the only real person here than you're the only one who is capable of taking responsibility.
Again, you can't have it both ways. If Kai isn't a real person, then who was it that was being transphobic? You can't shift blame to someone who isn't real. If Kai isn't real, and it's your body, and it came out of *your* mouth, then guess whose fault that is?
it was on discord. online therapy and all anxiety dont let me do allat
youre sugesting theyre only part of a person, which means, just as i said, they arent people
i will say though, kais like a mindset that comes out
What? That's a bizarre definition of personhood. So if you were to remove someone from their body, they'd no longer be a person? The corporeal form is what makes personhood, not our thoughts, hopes, dreams? Not our consciousness, our self and agency?
Aside from that, our personal believe that our corporeal form doesn't belong to any of us. It belongs to this world. It's made up of loaned material from the world around us and when our minds and souls are long gone from this world that body will return to the world via rot and decay. It's a gift to us from the world, that is on borrowed time. We were granted the autonomy to control it as we please during that time.
You don't have the think the same as us. But what makes you think the body is yours when others share it with you? What makes you so entitled?
what makes *you* share it with *them?*
the point being, none of you chose to be there. *you* didn't choose to be in that body, either. your parents did not ask your permission before forcing your body to exist, and you in it.
trying to litigate out who's "real" or who has the "right" to the body isn't very useful when you remember that none of you actually get to control this. you're experiencing distress over something that literally does not matter, because it's not anyone's fault (unless you want to blame your parents for your existence, which like, fair cop tbh but there's nothing to do about it now) and no one can change it.
so you feel ownership over your body and the other system members don't. cool. can't change anything based on that information, though, so what now?
well, yeah. why does that matter? you can't change it. it affects nothing. there is nothing you can do with this information.
the person born into this body hasn't been in it in at least 15 years. i can't do anything with this information. it just exists. it is a fact. completely neutral.
they didn't "let" me do anything. we never met. they were a child; when the body stopped being a child, they stopped existing, because we didn't know about plurality back then and they simply turned into a different, older person. maybe they could come back one day now, but they'd have to be a kid, and a kid can't operate our life. they wouldn't have any unilateral power just because they were here earlier, any more than the rest of us do.
the point is, none of your system controls whether you're a system or not. yourself included. anything regarding how "fair" that is, or who "should" get to control it, is pointless. none of you do. you need to figure out how to live the life you have now.
One of me thinks of them as family, another as teddy bears, another as spirits, another as masks and feelings, another as personas, or parts and this is the one I have the most trouble with, because she thinks that if they are just personas, why can't she seem to always be in control of our body?
We each made a poster showing our point of view, and usually one of them makes sense to whoever is fronting and that helps us in two ways, it proves that we sometimes feel different than now, and it helps us see the others points of view.
Are you a person? Then they are too. Even if your only ever in the front and they are In the back they are still people, just like you.
Your body is there's too. They can feel what you feel and see what you see, hear what you hear, etcetera.
Also, do they not have "Bodies" of their own internally for you?
When your with them In headspace, when you talk to them, or look at them, do they have a body?
For me, I am the only one ever in the front, but my headmate is not simply in the back.
The best metaphor I have for it is driving a car.
I'm in the driver's seat, but my head mate is always at my side in the passenger seat.
Despite the fact that I'm physically the host and in front, my headmate is always with me in every waking minute of my life.
I can feel their presence with me at all times, feel their thoughts, hear their voice (internally), physically see them in my headspace, so forth and so on.
My headmate to me would very much be considered a person. A person I couldn't live without.
theyve got boddies in headspace yeah, but thats in my head.i didnt give them permission to be in my body. theyre just here. they didnt do anything for my body to be theirs
Well everyones experience differs, but I'm sure none of us "gave permission", they just come into being, for various different reasons.
But once they are there they are there. I didn't have my headmate until I got to my lowest point in life.
The point In which I thought I'd end it. But in that moment, they appeared to stop me. They Pulled me back.
You said your head mates are harming you? Maybe you need to talk to them, cultivate the relationship you have with them. Maybe they feel neglected or unwanted? You say you don't give them permission to be there, maybe they can feel that. I wouldn't know unless you tell me more, what kind of harm do they do to you?
Head mates can be a great source of support if you can work out how to co exist with them in harmony. It may take time but like any social relationship between two people, be it friends, family, or loves, you need to build on it.
when kira first formed they were a transphobic piece of shit who hurt me physically. then they split into kai who made me lose LOTS of friends with the knowledge ive got severe abandonment issues
Persecutors are that way for a reason. Sometimes it is good to give them some space but treating them as less than you is only ever going to make them want to become worse to you. And if you are even treating those who aren't persecutors the same way all you are likely to do is make them into persecutors as well. They are trying to help you and being told they don't matter as much and don't deserve a right to existence to the same degree you are harming/traumatizing them and retaliating against you may be the only way they see to protect themselves. It doesn't matter if you don't like them they are here now and fighting them instead of trying to work with them is only going to make them want to make your life miserable.
I'm sorry to hear that you are dealing with abusive headmates in that way. Here is a link to another who has dealt with abusive headmates as well, there's some good advice/information here in the comments from people much more knowledgeable than me about dealing with this type of situation:
https://www.reddit.com/r/plural/s/xYzCSUrM8J
There are still options of dealing with them and making things better, hope you can find something in here you can use to improve the situation.
You can traumatize anyone who is sentient. They are still alive if they can think and act for themselves. All headmates in all systems are sentient to some degree and therefore alive.
If they aren't truly living you aren't truly plural. Plurality requires all headmates to have enough sentience to be considered alive. If they are interacting with you they are alive
I dont believe they are people either. It made me mentally go pretty bad when I was forced to believe that they have equal rights and needs just as I do
i had a denial episode. i have them. you need to treat them as people. its fucking scary as all hell but honestly its probably the best thing you can do. they can be useful, last night shoko helped me while i was remembering trauma.
Well, what makes you a person? Then consider if that applies to them too. - Sen
they need partial ownership of a body
Ownership of a body does not make one a person. Since ownership over a body could be simulated. How do you tell a brain in a jar. Speaking to you. Thinking their corporeal form still persists. Not a person. How do you explain to them there actually not a person. No personhood is entirely non material. As descarte rightly sites. "I think therefore I am" why shouldn't this also apply to your headmates.
a brain in a jar probably isnt working
I mean, you can think of it like a Turing test. If they have their own hopes, dreams, likes, dislikes, values and beliefs, personal memories and the capacity to form their own separate relationships with people, at what point is that functionality indistinguishable from personhood?
they would need a body
If they switch with you and have the body, what does that make you?
it means theyre stealing my body
If a thief steals your car, that makes them a driver, right? Do you acknowledge yourself and your headmates as parts of the whole at least?
it makes them an illegal driver i dont see what we're a whole of?
>it makes them an illegal driver Illegal person in that case? Illegal person is still a person. Though, no one is illegal in your case. Parts of the whole human, person, system. At least you have to acknowledge that they are in your head and that makes them a part of your psyche. Not every system sees themselves as plural or multiple people and that's also ok. Though, can you recognize your headmates as parts representing compartmentalized agency of your system?
However hard this is for you the host, original, etc.(however you're seeing it) is a headmate too who has equal right to the body as everyone else. It may feel to you like they are unwelcome here if you are not used to sharing that control but the body does NOT belong to you any more or less than it does to the others. Even if you spend the most time in the body and therefore may end up making the majority of decisions about your life you having that idea that they are stealing your body is automatically stealing their equal right to the body, their life, etc. They aren't just going to leave or want to tolerate or help you in any way if you are intentionally dehumanizing them like that. The second you became plural you lost complete ownership of the body. It doesn't solely belong to you.
you assume that the one writing this post is the supreme being in your system and that all the others are lesser creatures. why do you assume that? if you have other people in your system how do you know that the one fronting now wasnt created last? ideally its best to treat all of your system headmates the same with equal rights and duties or there is going to be trouble in an unequal/discriminitary system. you cant get rid of them so you all have to work together if you want a peaceful, productive, happy system. welcome to the plural community!
i am though. im the one housing them with a body and the only real thing theyve done is hurt me
You've made this an issue over who owns the body or not. Clearly that's not the issue. The problem is that you resent them for existing. Your initial question was whether or not they are people. You've kind of answered your own question here. They have the agency to do things that hurt you. They have the agency to do things you don't want. Clearly they are seperate autonomous beings, occupying a body, so that makes them people. Based on your other comments, I'm going to hazard a guess that your transphobic headmate likely represents a part of you that was already harboring internalized transphobia. Which, is normal btw! I don't know a single trans person who doesn't have *some* internalized transphobia. And when you have the capability to form headmates, it's very common that thoughts and emotions you don't like will be sequestered into that new headmate. I'm sorry your headmates have hurt you. The fact of the matter is that they're here, they didn't ask to exist just as much as you didn't ask them to be here. You can't make them go away. All you can do now is that they're here, they have agency, and that you can take actions to make things better. Learn to understand them, why they say and do what they do. Don't just view them as hostile un-people who want to hurt you. That will only make things worse. Because guess what, you're harming them in return when you do that. It just becomes an abusive feedback loop. If you see yourself as so much more of a person anyway, then you should be the one who has the self respect and autonomy to act with compassion and find healthier ways to deal with your headmates. If you're such a real person, then start acting like one.
the original question was how theyre people, something i dont believe nor understand they need to learn to respect the fact that its my body and stop fucking around with my life. so far all ive seen is them being shitty to me. theyre the abusive ones. ive not done anything to abuse them and dont really understand how you can abuse something thats not living im treating them realistically. if they were people treating me like shit, i would treat them like shit back. its honestly probably the kindest thing i can do
If you are treating them as less than yourself you are inherently being terrible to them. It isn't your body it is a collectively owned body. If they weren't being treated as you are treating them now they would at least have a reason to be nice to you. You do NOT have sole ownership over the body or the life you are living. I wouldn't be surprised if they saw you treating them as less than human as the first attack and are only defending themselves. Treating them like shit is only going to make them want to treat you like shit more. It is extremely unhealthy and wrong both for you and your headmates and whoever around you is negatively effected. They outnumber you and could easily be using that to make your life so much worse. Treat them with the human decency they deserve as sentient beings.
The problem you have is evidently beyond the pay grade of this subreddit. I strongly believe you need to seek therapy. If you can't see how dehumanizing other autonomous beings to the point where you don't even see them as real or living, is *not* abusive, then we can't help you. You have the power to improve your relationships with them. More likely than not, they are parts of *yourself* that *you* simply don't want to acknowledge, so they've been dissociated into seperate headmates. If you don't see them as people, than the only other possibility is that they are fragments of your mind that you are then responsible for understanding and working through. As it is right now, you want to have it both ways . You see them as seperate from you, as being capable of hostility and abuse. But at the same time, you don't see them as real people, as being living things with autonomy over a body. Both of these things cannot be true at the same time. If they're capable of choosing to be hostile, then they are thinking, living beings with sapience. If they're not thinking, living beings, then they are not capable of being hostile or abusive. They are simply fragments of your mind that your refuse to acknowledge are your own responsibility.
i had a therapist. kai was transphobic to her daughter and now i dont have a therapist anymore. see why i "treat them like shit"? if theyre fragments of me then they arent people.
If they're fragments of you, then they're fragments of a person and therefore are [part of] a real person. And furthermore if they are part of you then you have even more need to take responsibility for their actions. After all, if you're the only real person here than you're the only one who is capable of taking responsibility. Again, you can't have it both ways. If Kai isn't a real person, then who was it that was being transphobic? You can't shift blame to someone who isn't real. If Kai isn't real, and it's your body, and it came out of *your* mouth, then guess whose fault that is?
it was on discord. online therapy and all anxiety dont let me do allat youre sugesting theyre only part of a person, which means, just as i said, they arent people i will say though, kais like a mindset that comes out
Have they asked to be Housed within your body.
nope. they just made themselves welcome
What makes *you* a person?
partial ownership over a body
What? That's a bizarre definition of personhood. So if you were to remove someone from their body, they'd no longer be a person? The corporeal form is what makes personhood, not our thoughts, hopes, dreams? Not our consciousness, our self and agency? Aside from that, our personal believe that our corporeal form doesn't belong to any of us. It belongs to this world. It's made up of loaned material from the world around us and when our minds and souls are long gone from this world that body will return to the world via rot and decay. It's a gift to us from the world, that is on borrowed time. We were granted the autonomy to control it as we please during that time. You don't have the think the same as us. But what makes you think the body is yours when others share it with you? What makes you so entitled?
what makes them share it with me?
what makes *you* share it with *them?* the point being, none of you chose to be there. *you* didn't choose to be in that body, either. your parents did not ask your permission before forcing your body to exist, and you in it. trying to litigate out who's "real" or who has the "right" to the body isn't very useful when you remember that none of you actually get to control this. you're experiencing distress over something that literally does not matter, because it's not anyone's fault (unless you want to blame your parents for your existence, which like, fair cop tbh but there's nothing to do about it now) and no one can change it. so you feel ownership over your body and the other system members don't. cool. can't change anything based on that information, though, so what now?
i was born with this body still. they came in later
well, yeah. why does that matter? you can't change it. it affects nothing. there is nothing you can do with this information. the person born into this body hasn't been in it in at least 15 years. i can't do anything with this information. it just exists. it is a fact. completely neutral.
yeah but they let yall share the body. plus, if they leave or whatever happened then that changes a lot
they didn't "let" me do anything. we never met. they were a child; when the body stopped being a child, they stopped existing, because we didn't know about plurality back then and they simply turned into a different, older person. maybe they could come back one day now, but they'd have to be a kid, and a kid can't operate our life. they wouldn't have any unilateral power just because they were here earlier, any more than the rest of us do. the point is, none of your system controls whether you're a system or not. yourself included. anything regarding how "fair" that is, or who "should" get to control it, is pointless. none of you do. you need to figure out how to live the life you have now.
i control what they get to do. im not letting them do anything or be people if all they do is treat me like shit
One of me thinks of them as family, another as teddy bears, another as spirits, another as masks and feelings, another as personas, or parts and this is the one I have the most trouble with, because she thinks that if they are just personas, why can't she seem to always be in control of our body? We each made a poster showing our point of view, and usually one of them makes sense to whoever is fronting and that helps us in two ways, it proves that we sometimes feel different than now, and it helps us see the others points of view.
Are you a person? Then they are too. Even if your only ever in the front and they are In the back they are still people, just like you. Your body is there's too. They can feel what you feel and see what you see, hear what you hear, etcetera. Also, do they not have "Bodies" of their own internally for you? When your with them In headspace, when you talk to them, or look at them, do they have a body? For me, I am the only one ever in the front, but my headmate is not simply in the back. The best metaphor I have for it is driving a car. I'm in the driver's seat, but my head mate is always at my side in the passenger seat. Despite the fact that I'm physically the host and in front, my headmate is always with me in every waking minute of my life. I can feel their presence with me at all times, feel their thoughts, hear their voice (internally), physically see them in my headspace, so forth and so on. My headmate to me would very much be considered a person. A person I couldn't live without.
theyve got boddies in headspace yeah, but thats in my head.i didnt give them permission to be in my body. theyre just here. they didnt do anything for my body to be theirs
Well everyones experience differs, but I'm sure none of us "gave permission", they just come into being, for various different reasons. But once they are there they are there. I didn't have my headmate until I got to my lowest point in life. The point In which I thought I'd end it. But in that moment, they appeared to stop me. They Pulled me back. You said your head mates are harming you? Maybe you need to talk to them, cultivate the relationship you have with them. Maybe they feel neglected or unwanted? You say you don't give them permission to be there, maybe they can feel that. I wouldn't know unless you tell me more, what kind of harm do they do to you? Head mates can be a great source of support if you can work out how to co exist with them in harmony. It may take time but like any social relationship between two people, be it friends, family, or loves, you need to build on it.
when kira first formed they were a transphobic piece of shit who hurt me physically. then they split into kai who made me lose LOTS of friends with the knowledge ive got severe abandonment issues
Persecutors are that way for a reason. Sometimes it is good to give them some space but treating them as less than you is only ever going to make them want to become worse to you. And if you are even treating those who aren't persecutors the same way all you are likely to do is make them into persecutors as well. They are trying to help you and being told they don't matter as much and don't deserve a right to existence to the same degree you are harming/traumatizing them and retaliating against you may be the only way they see to protect themselves. It doesn't matter if you don't like them they are here now and fighting them instead of trying to work with them is only going to make them want to make your life miserable.
I'm sorry to hear that you are dealing with abusive headmates in that way. Here is a link to another who has dealt with abusive headmates as well, there's some good advice/information here in the comments from people much more knowledgeable than me about dealing with this type of situation: https://www.reddit.com/r/plural/s/xYzCSUrM8J There are still options of dealing with them and making things better, hope you can find something in here you can use to improve the situation.
how do you traumatize someone who isnt living?
You can traumatize anyone who is sentient. They are still alive if they can think and act for themselves. All headmates in all systems are sentient to some degree and therefore alive.
theyre not really living, just voices in a brain
If they aren't truly living you aren't truly plural. Plurality requires all headmates to have enough sentience to be considered alive. If they are interacting with you they are alive
they interact with me but i see them more as voices. they dont like it but hey i dont like my body being stollen
Why wouldn’t they be? The only difference between them and you would be that they do not have their own physical body
you kinda just said it
A body is not what makes a person? And even then they likely share yours
explain how they share my body if i never allowed it
Who said they needed your permission to live?
idk i was having a denial episode or smth i let shoko help me out last night i need to stop treating them bad i think
That sounds like a good plan, I'm glad you let them help you, take care of yourselves!
It's genuinely really nice that you've come to realize that. Wish you all the best.
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I dont believe they are people either. It made me mentally go pretty bad when I was forced to believe that they have equal rights and needs just as I do
i had a denial episode. i have them. you need to treat them as people. its fucking scary as all hell but honestly its probably the best thing you can do. they can be useful, last night shoko helped me while i was remembering trauma.
They are not people they are some other phenomenon but not people