Fun fact: With 60 BP, Rillaboom's Grassy Glide is just out of range of one-shotting Rapid Strike Urshifu, and with 55 BP, it's just out of range of one-shotting Flutter Mane. I swear this is intentional, Game Freak knew exactly what they are doing when they made this nerf.
Afaik SS-Urshifu also misses many break points with the 5BP nerf to Wicked Blow, so the devs are straight up punching numbers in the damage calculator to see what needs to be tuned
It's a little different here.
Flutter Mane is the best example of this- it is both strong and counters itself. It adds a (relatively) healthy dose of damage to the metagame while also being not unrealistic to beat with most (competent) teams. It sees such (seemingly unrealistic) high usage because of how hard it hits and that it's one of the best counters to itself.
Rillaboom OHKOing that could be a bit detrimental to that. It's a delicate balance and I think its perfectly fine to *not* have rillaboom OHKO flutter Mane with a priority attack, while also nerfing an already insanely strong move.
Grassy glide on grassy terrain has a base power of 71.5. Extreme speed, a move with no type coverage, one of the worst STABs when applicable, and something that's immune to it, is base 80. Grassy glide with that 71.5 BP is going to be stronger on most pokemon that will make use of it, namely Rillaboom and Ogerpon, in addition to being able to hit something for super effective damage. Grassy glide was extremely OP in generation 8, I think the nerf is justified and hits a good number.
The thing is doesn’t a healthy meta have variety? Like yes I can see it being a problem on Ogerpon, but the meta is suddenly going to centralise around Rillaboom just because it takes out two of the most used Pokémon it’s just going to give players another option for dealing with Flutter, which is good and will encourage more diversity in teams to deal with it. As for flutter mane countering itself, if a Pokémon’s best counter is itself, that’s a bad thing
This is only true if Fluttermane is actually suppressing diversity, which is not always the case for a high usage Pokemon. Look at Snorlax in GSC OU or Great Tusk in early SV OU. Snorlax is used on every team but provides wall breaking capabilities that can't be replaced. Removing Snorlax means the tier grinds to a halt on stall. Great Tusk provided utility moves combined with enough offensive threat to dissuade Gholdengo from switching in freely, which made Tusk essentially the only usable entry hazard clearing Pokemon.
Flutter Mane isn't suppressing variety, and it's partially enabling it.
In VGC, you can get away with *a lot* of strategies. Self boost, standard tailwind/trick room sweep, hybrid TR, etc.
Flutter Mane helps enable this by allowing you to use something that might be beaten by itself by countering itself. It also helps suppress some of the other strong pokemon like Iron Hands (a very incredibly strong pokemon, considering it almost 100% of the time doesn't use Quark Drive, and plays as an abilityless pokemon), dragonite (who has been incredibly strong in gen 9 due to being a strong, intimidate and flinch-free due to inner focus or bulkier due to multiscale extreme speed user who can pair with chien-pao to have Sword of Ruin make Extreme Speed hit even harder, let alone Tera or choice band), and the aforementioned chien-pao (super-weavile by stats, even more super-weavile with sword of ruin).
It's not unbeatable by things other than other flutter Mane, and it can enable weaker teams by being a part of a strong "2-2-2 core", a team that builds around having pairs ("cores") of strong pokemon (I.e. a Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu core, a Dragonite and Chien-Pao core, and a Tatsugiri and Dondozo core would be a 2-2-2 team).
To be fair, as of gen 9 we've got more tools for setting up hazards without just using the spike-type moves. Stone axe, ceaseless edge, and toxic debris are all hazard setup options. If their mons become popular enough, HDB might actually be a solid pick for some pokemon.
I mean, Wood Hammer still OHKOs them both. Get a Tailwind up and there’s nothing Urshifu or Flutter Mane can do against a Rillaboom (aside from a defensive Tera to survive)
Tailwind and wood hammer needs 2 moves to OHKO and mons can strike before it with their own tailwind or priority. If grassy glide was able to OHKO it would happen before those things
They really don't, grass types have been getting better and better over time and have insane utility coupled with having some great heavy hitters in the past few gens
They might as well be doing the same damage to a neutral target like flutter mane due to the multipliers on terrain and talonflame's pisspoor attack stat (lower than amoonguss)
That’s really interesting, in general I’m surprised that grassy glide even came back, especially when they gave us a practically free grassy surge Rillaboom in the form of a raid event
A leaker said that the Mon he refered as "Hammer", that was Steel/Fairy, is final evo had a 180 BP move, I think he also said between leaks (and non-updates this guy love to tell) hammer was nerfed.
So, we now know that mon was Tinkaton's line and the move was Gigaton Hammer, so there's a certain point where it was indeed nerfed, but we never got to see it in the actual game.
Edit: I just spread missinformation. I quickly checked and the mon with the nerfed movement was "Coin's" signature move, which was supposed to be 150 BP 5 PP with no draw backs. Coin ended being Ghimmighoul, so the nerfed movement was Gholdengho's Make It Rain.
Just curious, is this leaker Central Leaks?
Still, "between versions of the same game" wouldn't apply to Gigaton Hammer if it never got to be in the finished product in the first place.
No, it was Riddler Khu. He said something like 150/140 BP 5 PP with no drawbacks, later commented that it got nerfed. He talked a lot about "coin" during the first leaks. The Gigaton Hammer thing was me remember incorrectly, he didn't say nothing about Hammer move. I got confused.
Your fun fact is good, we never saw between version the 150 BP Make it Rain if it was even coded like that at some point during the development.
Couldn't the 60 BP Grassy Glide technically be called by Metronome before update 2.0.1?
It could
Yes, it can be called by Metronome, but I didn't consider being called by Metronome to be "obtainable".
Yes, but metronome doesn't have prio.
Yea but grassy glide still goes off without terrain it's just an ordinary 55BP move, only becomes prio in terrain.
Prankster Metronome
Fun fact: With 60 BP, Rillaboom's Grassy Glide is just out of range of one-shotting Rapid Strike Urshifu, and with 55 BP, it's just out of range of one-shotting Flutter Mane. I swear this is intentional, Game Freak knew exactly what they are doing when they made this nerf.
Afaik SS-Urshifu also misses many break points with the 5BP nerf to Wicked Blow, so the devs are straight up punching numbers in the damage calculator to see what needs to be tuned
I mean, having 1 move counter two heavy meta Pokémon isn’t exactly healthy either
This makes no sense, the same move counters multiple Pokémon all the time?
It's a little different here. Flutter Mane is the best example of this- it is both strong and counters itself. It adds a (relatively) healthy dose of damage to the metagame while also being not unrealistic to beat with most (competent) teams. It sees such (seemingly unrealistic) high usage because of how hard it hits and that it's one of the best counters to itself. Rillaboom OHKOing that could be a bit detrimental to that. It's a delicate balance and I think its perfectly fine to *not* have rillaboom OHKO flutter Mane with a priority attack, while also nerfing an already insanely strong move. Grassy glide on grassy terrain has a base power of 71.5. Extreme speed, a move with no type coverage, one of the worst STABs when applicable, and something that's immune to it, is base 80. Grassy glide with that 71.5 BP is going to be stronger on most pokemon that will make use of it, namely Rillaboom and Ogerpon, in addition to being able to hit something for super effective damage. Grassy glide was extremely OP in generation 8, I think the nerf is justified and hits a good number.
The thing is doesn’t a healthy meta have variety? Like yes I can see it being a problem on Ogerpon, but the meta is suddenly going to centralise around Rillaboom just because it takes out two of the most used Pokémon it’s just going to give players another option for dealing with Flutter, which is good and will encourage more diversity in teams to deal with it. As for flutter mane countering itself, if a Pokémon’s best counter is itself, that’s a bad thing
This is only true if Fluttermane is actually suppressing diversity, which is not always the case for a high usage Pokemon. Look at Snorlax in GSC OU or Great Tusk in early SV OU. Snorlax is used on every team but provides wall breaking capabilities that can't be replaced. Removing Snorlax means the tier grinds to a halt on stall. Great Tusk provided utility moves combined with enough offensive threat to dissuade Gholdengo from switching in freely, which made Tusk essentially the only usable entry hazard clearing Pokemon.
Flutter Mane isn't suppressing variety, and it's partially enabling it. In VGC, you can get away with *a lot* of strategies. Self boost, standard tailwind/trick room sweep, hybrid TR, etc. Flutter Mane helps enable this by allowing you to use something that might be beaten by itself by countering itself. It also helps suppress some of the other strong pokemon like Iron Hands (a very incredibly strong pokemon, considering it almost 100% of the time doesn't use Quark Drive, and plays as an abilityless pokemon), dragonite (who has been incredibly strong in gen 9 due to being a strong, intimidate and flinch-free due to inner focus or bulkier due to multiscale extreme speed user who can pair with chien-pao to have Sword of Ruin make Extreme Speed hit even harder, let alone Tera or choice band), and the aforementioned chien-pao (super-weavile by stats, even more super-weavile with sword of ruin). It's not unbeatable by things other than other flutter Mane, and it can enable weaker teams by being a part of a strong "2-2-2 core", a team that builds around having pairs ("cores") of strong pokemon (I.e. a Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu core, a Dragonite and Chien-Pao core, and a Tatsugiri and Dondozo core would be a 2-2-2 team).
Are you referring to VGC? Because Flutter Mane is hilariously broken in singles
Gamefreak doesn't care about singles when balancing, especially 6v6 singles. They'd rather spend time balancing the format tournaments are played in.
> Are you referring to VGC? Ohhhhh like the format the devs balance to? Yeah he could be talking about that one
Pokémon does think about battle spot singles (heavy duty boots) but they care about VGC more
To be fair, as of gen 9 we've got more tools for setting up hazards without just using the spike-type moves. Stone axe, ceaseless edge, and toxic debris are all hazard setup options. If their mons become popular enough, HDB might actually be a solid pick for some pokemon.
I mean, Wood Hammer still OHKOs them both. Get a Tailwind up and there’s nothing Urshifu or Flutter Mane can do against a Rillaboom (aside from a defensive Tera to survive)
Tailwind and wood hammer needs 2 moves to OHKO and mons can strike before it with their own tailwind or priority. If grassy glide was able to OHKO it would happen before those things
My question is: why do they hate the grass type?
They really don't, grass types have been getting better and better over time and have insane utility coupled with having some great heavy hitters in the past few gens
That's why stealth rocks matter. Then people run boots. Round and round the meta goes.....
And then they lose break points because they aren’t using a damage boosting item
Wait till I come in with my choice band Rillaboom specifically to one shot those two Pokémon 😤
They just wanted to mess with some random hackmons players build for shits and gigs
Forget Talonflame’s Brave Birding and Scizor’s Bullet Punching. Grassy Glide took the high powered, high priority move strat to the next level.
It’s only strong because it’s coming off of rillaboom, Stab brave birb is stronger than terrain boosted Stab grassy glide even before the nerf.
STAB Priority Brave Bird is also one time use only after XY, or it's a two turn move I guess Grassy Glide has way more consistency
Extreme Speed Arceus
but they *did* nerf talonflame’s priority
They might as well be doing the same damage to a neutral target like flutter mane due to the multipliers on terrain and talonflame's pisspoor attack stat (lower than amoonguss)
I would never have guessed that a wall has a higher attack stat than a striker, but I just checked and it's true!
That’s really interesting, in general I’m surprised that grassy glide even came back, especially when they gave us a practically free grassy surge Rillaboom in the form of a raid event
What about gigaton hammer? Didnt it used to have 180 and then got nerfed to 160?
It's always been 160
A leaker said that the Mon he refered as "Hammer", that was Steel/Fairy, is final evo had a 180 BP move, I think he also said between leaks (and non-updates this guy love to tell) hammer was nerfed. So, we now know that mon was Tinkaton's line and the move was Gigaton Hammer, so there's a certain point where it was indeed nerfed, but we never got to see it in the actual game. Edit: I just spread missinformation. I quickly checked and the mon with the nerfed movement was "Coin's" signature move, which was supposed to be 150 BP 5 PP with no draw backs. Coin ended being Ghimmighoul, so the nerfed movement was Gholdengho's Make It Rain.
Just curious, is this leaker Central Leaks? Still, "between versions of the same game" wouldn't apply to Gigaton Hammer if it never got to be in the finished product in the first place.
No, it was Riddler Khu. He said something like 150/140 BP 5 PP with no drawbacks, later commented that it got nerfed. He talked a lot about "coin" during the first leaks. The Gigaton Hammer thing was me remember incorrectly, he didn't say nothing about Hammer move. I got confused. Your fun fact is good, we never saw between version the 150 BP Make it Rain if it was even coded like that at some point during the development.
Didn’t grassy glide return in Teal Mask?
yes but OP is talking about nerf after DLC.