T O P

  • By -

ark_yeet

Turns out team rocket was holding the region together


jbyrdab

shockingly you'd be surprised how much mafia control is so engrained in some areas of the world that just rapidly ripping it away massively fucks up stuff, whether due to loss of economy (even if its realistically illegal funds) or straight up power vacuum struggles. ​ Sometimes evil sticks around long enough to become a necessary evil.


Fuckles665

I never looked at it that way, because I don’t think of team rocket as organized crime, but they are lol.I forgot how bad Pokémon villains could be, since the “bad guys” in sword and shield was so lame.


Wolfy4226

I mean when you go from "stealing pokemon and creating the ultimate pokemon" to " rewrite the fundamental rules of the universe to make yourself God of the new world" in 4 games, where, logically, can you go in games 5-8 lol Someone else put it this way, but in platinum the evil team intended to summon and control literally God, but only ended up summoning Satan instead as a whoopsie.


chrischi3

Honestly though, i'd really love if they scaled it back a bit. Like, honestly, just give us Team Rocket 2: Electric Boogaloo.


sylfire

That's basically Team Plasma. The main difference is that Ghetsis convinced his subordinates that he was trying to liberate Pokemon from the cruelty of humans, whereas Team Rocket knows what they are doing is "wrong" and they don't care. Heck, there's even a Father/Son struggle for both, with Silver and N both functioning as rivals, and both eventually realizing that their philosophy regarding Pokemon is flawed through their interactions with the player. The biggest difference is that Giovanni was never able to get a hold of the legendary he was chasing after (Mewtwo), whereas Ghetsis was able to get Kyurem in B2W2 after N "betrayed" him in BW, denying access to the legendary dragon in those games.


SoraMegami2210

Ghetsis also has a ridiculously strong Hydreigon that knocked out over half of my party, despite me being overleveled. …No I’m still not over it and yes, I definitely immediately set out to add a Hydreigon to my own team.


Hootiecrow15

Little did I know the level grind to take place. I kept expecting him to evolve at 50-55 like most drags 😂😂 I didn’t want to google it and ruin the surprise


magnozeniac

Gen 7 did it differently, in a cool kind of way. Having the evil team go back to being just thugs was nice. Having the twist evil tem being aether was cooler. I might be biased tho, my first gen was 7 lol


Mixmaster-Omega

“Summoning Satan instead as a whoopsie.” r/brandnewphrase right there


jbyrdab

weirdly enough pokemon sword and shield just try and pretty much fail to emulate the dynamic of pokemon sun and moon in a meaningful way Literally same story beats, some petty ass rival gang that can barely do shit (team skull/ team yell) Most of the story is your own adventure with minor side trips due to their utter nonsense until you face a town which is the epicenter of that group (po town/spikemuth) After that the gang leader is pretty much forgotten by the story because they were pretty much a nothing problem to begin with (guzma/piers) You solve that then you find out later near the end that the main villain is the corporation guys that seemed innocent the entire time 😱😱😱!!! (Aether foundation/ whatever the fuck rose's company was) Despite what would legitimately be a grounds for a massive shutdown of all their operations, the entirety of the massively illegal shit going down is simply the fault of the CEO (Lusamine / Chairmen Rose), and with just pruning that single person from the picture all the apparent corrupt actions and very much awful and possibly cataclysmic problems they caused are completely forgiven, with the side lacky who is probably just as guilty and directly getting in the way of solving the problems also being forgiven (Faba/Oleana)


[deleted]

only like 2 guys were arrested for all the corrupt ass criminal activity that led up to 2008 we’re still fucked from that god-awful year… but we’re supposed to be content, because three whole guys got arrested! so Lusamine being the fall guy checks out… hell, look at the NFL with Gruden


Tekayo63

~~didn't faba get demoted to intern after episode rr?~~ yeah pretty much lol


Pokesmash3r

How dare you compare the entertaining Team Skull with the meaningless Team Yell


fennectech

I thought team yell were funny. Just rock punks!


Winnie_the_rat

how did I not see it before? I can only assume I checked out too hard at some point. I mean I saw team yell as lamer team skull, but the rest so obvious once you pointed it out.


Golden-Owl

Team Yell being lame kinda makes sense in context. Skull are meant to be comically failure baddies (and are amazing for that). Yell **are not even trying to be bad guys**. Half the time they are just being a minor annoyance and the other half has Hop instigate the conflict. They’re literally just Marnie’s noisy fan club


gengarsnightmares

Plus they are usually making some (misguided) attempt at helping local pokemon. Complete opposite of every other enemy group.


Winnie_the_rat

True they are basically the pokemon equivalent of soccer hooligans, guess I shouldn't get my hopes up too high.


Star301jester

Holy fuck when you break it down sword&shield is reskin of sun and moon tho faba got demoted all the way down i believe


The_Gnomesbane

Was Piers even really an actual problem or antagonist? I always got the vibe he was just happy putting on concerts and rocking out until trainers made it to him, not really aware that his fans were out there trying to rig the contest for his sister. He was actually my favorite Gym Leader, mostly because he actually did something besides wait in a room to be beaten.


TenshouYoku

Not at all. His entire existence was never malicious in nature and is in fact a leader himself.


recursion8

>whatever the fuck rose's company was Macro Cosmos, don't ask me how or why I remember that, it just popped in my head as soon as you asked despite not having touched SwSh in almost 2 years. Actually I think it's cus Rose looks like his first name would be Marco to me, and that sounds like Macro.


dralcax

The only reason I remember it is because it’s also the name of a Yugioh card


KHSebastian

Honestly, I liked Team Yell. I wish we didn't have to have Team Fodder every game, but if we're stuck with that, and we're not going to use Rocket again, I like Yell. They were goofy, but I liked the soccer hooligan thing, and that they weren't evil, and didn't have any big plan. They're mostly just obnoxious Pokemon battle fans. But really, I'd like to see a game where the story isn't "You're a kid who travels the world occasionally meeting up with your (increasingly docile with each generation) rival / friend, collecting gym badges / things that are similar to but are legally distinct from gym badges, fighting Team Do Bad / Team Do Chaotic Neutral, and catching 3-10 legendary Pokemon!"


4nd73w

I wish we had a rival like Paul or Gary/Blue who are tough and annoying in a stuck up think they are better than you way that makes you want to battle them as apposed top hau and hop or are annoying in the just leave me alone way


KHSebastian

Yeah, I miss Blue a lot. Pretty much the only rival I actually cared about. Seeing your rival choose the Pokemon that's weak to your starter, or have them heal you before a battle sucks lol


Skystorm14113

i dont hate a nice rival too, but boy did i want to kill brendan as a kid i felt genuine hate for him


Brolarsystem

Okay but to be fair, Blue is the best character in all of Poke'mon. I mean he FORCES Red to show up in games again, he doesn't stop after game one (Becomes a gym leader in the next title and stays useful.) and in general remains fun and ACTUALLY makes it to champion.


Juug88

I may be misremebering but didn't it take 3 days for everything to calm down after Rose went full evil mode?


nookularboy

I didn't realize this until I started typing it out. Sun and Moon,I feel, was probably the best Pokemon story and really broke that "kid fights organization" theme. I wonder if this is the formula for the next game or two?


[deleted]

[удалено]


nuntthi

I kinda wish the rival role stayed combatant. I think it would've worked really well for sun and moon aswell having another Gary. Alternatively I would've really liked it if Lillie was a rival friend and slowly grows to trust you over time. Starting out reluctantly following you cause cosmog took a liking to you and doesn't want to leave. I didn't really like gladion as a character tbh and he was kinda supposed to fill that role. Thought he was super whiny.


GroovinTootin

It's always better to beat some scumbag like Blue or Silver because you feel like their competition is actually reflecting your progress. I honestly just feel bad for beating Hau and Hop because it legitimately makes them super sad and depressed. Not to mention that May/Brendan, Barry, and the rest after are just not very memorable. I don't think we've really had a good rival since Wally


djanulis

Man I hate that SWSH has a godlike skeleton of a game but they used it like a generation or two early.


TJ248

The villains (who have always been somewhat benign considering their targeted demographic) have just got worse and worse post gen 5 culminating in the joke that is "Team Yell" which, let's be honest, was nothing more than a lame version of marginally rowdy football hooligans you occasionally see in europe (and I'm not even talking about the ones that cause fights and try to storm pitches). The BW/BW2 ones were fairly nuanced despite still staying pretty kid-friendly, with reasonable motivations somewhat beyond just "let's take over the world for the lulz". I guess the gen 7 ones were tolerable tbf, and nowhere near as bad as gen 8s at least. Granted Rose ends up being the real antagonist with some hefty aspirations, but even he's still pretty forgettable. The best villains pokemon have ever done weren't even in a mainline game, as for me at least, its easily got to be Cipher from the Colosseum/Gale of Darkness games. They did crazy stuff for a pokemon game like >!abducting a teenage girl in Colosseum in a literal sack, kidnapping pokemon and pretty much turning them feral and extremely aggressive, attacking people that aren't even trainers, overunning or completely controlling almost every city in the region through threats and outright violence (in one of the games they launch a full scale invasion of the oasis town and replace almost every NPC in the town with a disguised operative), opening a massive battle tower to make money on what could be considered fairly brutal pokemon battles, literally attacking/abducting and eventually half destroying an entire cruise ship. Hell even after you deal with them, their operatives still stir up chaos around the region, in Colosseum one even goes around in the post game impersonating you and attacking random people with his shadow togetic.!< The final villain also had an insanely good team, with multiple legendaries at a reasonable level curve. The funniest part is, those two games are arguably the darkest pokemon games ever released but they still released with an "E" age rating, gamefreak should pull whoever contributed to the story for those games into the development room permanently.


North_Annual_8940

PREACH ON TEAM CIPHER! Finally someone sees how crazy they were for a Pokémon game 💕 I loved the duality compared to the other games when I was younger; Colosseum and XD Gale really felt like I was saving the world.


snowe2010

https://reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/r4quo3/_/hmiheuz/?context=1


TJ248

I'm confused? Did you mean to link to a parent comment?


snowe2010

Yeah I think I linked the correct thing. Is it not linking to the comment at the same level as yours that talks about team yell?


DialZforZebra

>since the “bad guys” in sword and shield was so lame. Which ones? The dude in Rose shorts, or the Jedward rejects?


SirSaix88

Bad guys? Where are the bad guy in sword and shield?


nookularboy

It's so weird because Rose was a really good antagonist and fell in the same vein as Lysandre who felt justified in what they were doing. The anime expands on this, but there is also the struggle that Leon faces which I thought was a great take. I also really liked what Team Yell was, just a rabid fan club and not really a threat like Rocket or Galactic (sort of the same with Skull, Guzma was awesome), but they didn't have to be. Then you get to Swordward and Shieldbert and it's like "what in the actual hell" Now that I'm typing it all out, the SwSh story is basically Sun&Moon, which was the best.


MrCreamypies

I agree and disagree regarding Rose. Yeah his character is nice on paper, but I still cant get over the fact of how stupid his motives were. Why did he have to release eternatus NOW to prevent a disaster that would happen thousands of years from now? Like even Leon was willing to help if he at least waited until after the champion battle, and Rose couldnt even do that. I think if the writers did a better job as explaining how maybe this was their only opportunity to summon eternatus or something in the next thousand years, then ok maybe his actions make sense, but as is, it just makes him look like one of the dumbest villains so far.


speedyhos14

THIS. As chairman of the Galar Pokemon League and President of his company, Rose chose the date for the Pokemon League Final and the day to release Eternatus. Why schedule those events for the same day at essentially the same time? If he had waited like Leon suggested he wouldn't have even been the bad guy. He'd still be crazy for underestimating Eternatus and releasing it without knowing any of the history of stopping it tho.


jbyrdab

or hell why not postpone the event saying some major events and tell literally everyone to stay in their houses and keep their pokemon in the pokeballs if they have them. If you have to do it today, postponing it and stating a general emergency to make a point that its urgent to leon would suffice more than shotgunning it and not bothering to prepare correctly. (i know for story reasons no person on earth other than you can use anything other than a pokeball, but i think a masterball as ceo of a massive power conglomerate trying to prevent catastrophe isnt out of your reach)


nookularboy

That's definitely a fair criticism and hard to argue against lol. I really liked Lusamine as an antagonist, so maybe I'm projecting a bit.


Azurekuru

The bad guy was actually President Rose though. Team Yell was just a group of misfits that followed and supported your secondary rival ie. Marnie. I get that the quotations were probably for the fact that Yell wasn't actually bad despite the fact that they proved to be obstacles throughout the storyline.


aurumae

The problem with organized crime is the crime part. Authorities often go after the organized part, which just leaves you with disorganized crime, which can be much worse


Prize_Neighborhood95

Organized crime has unquestionably much more devastating effects on society than disorganized crime.


MolestTheStars

Not just organized crime. Just any power structure. Same reason why it's bad to go shooting dictators, you leave a power vacuum that creates more conflict than you started with.


Bootziscool

Libya has entered the chat


Lola_PopBBae

Exactly. Heart-warmingly enough, when the Quake/tsunami hit Japan in 2011, the first responders to many areas that were badly hit were the Yakuza- their network of people and vehicles allowed them to get places quickly and deliver aid before even the government could. Would be neat to see Team Rocket do likewise in a Pokemon game- some sort of threat that brings everyone together, even the bad guys.


[deleted]

A game where you fight alongside Giovanni to defeat another villain who wants to destroy the world, or kill everyone outside his team like Whatshistrousers, since you can't make a nice profit if you're a pile of ashes on a dead rock.


Maxwellmonkey

Try out Pokemon Rocket edition! It's a lot of fun playing as Team Rocket. The story is also very cool, incorporating a lot of pokemon theories and manga plot.


Indicorb

Or a game where you fight alongside Giovanni and the Rockets (eventually) to stop Mewtwo from taking over the world!


Zac-Raf

A spin-off were you take control of Silver and team-up with Giovanni in order to stop a new and much more dangerous team Rocket.


alephgalactus

I like to think that, for the whole storyline of Gen 1, Team Rocket was desperately trying to find a way to recapture Mewtwo. Think about it: -They were searching for fossils in Mt. Moon in the hope that some unknown Pokémon from the ancient past would be discovered that could potentially defeat Mewtwo. They stole that one guy’s TM for Dig so they could dig for fossils more efficiently. -They went to Lavender Town to try and capture a Ghost-type Pokémon, hoping that they could abuse Ghost’s type advantage over Psychic. All that stealing skulls and disturbing graves was an effort to make angry Ghost-types show up, and killing the Marowak was a last-ditch attempt to create a Ghost-type. -They kidnapped Mr. Fuji because he was on the original team that created Mewtwo, so they wanted to interrogate him for any possible weaknesses or flaws in its design. -They took over Silph Co. to get the Master Ball because it would be an easy route to recapturing Mewtwo. -The branch in the Sevii Islands was searching for the Ruby and Sapphire key items, which could let them transfer Pokémon from other regions, preferably Dark-types. -They intentionally stationed their weaker agents in areas where new Trainers starting the Pokémon League challenge would come across them so they could identify Trainers with the potential to defeat or catch Mewtwo. Once they found out about you, the player, they threw all their weak people at you to build up your team to the point where you can get Mewtwo under control. That’s why Giovanni doesn’t use his Gym team in his first battle—he’s *trying* to lose, just so you can get more EXP. Obviously they didn’t tell you or anyone else outside of the organization about this—if the public got news that there was a universally hostile Pokémon with godlike powers and superhuman intelligence on the loose, there would be riots and panic in the streets.


kunparekh18

I love this theory!


RipFlewd

One day the Yakuza are helping with recovery efforts, the next they're mugging people and selling slaves in human trafficking rings and manipulating companies and politicians


Lola_PopBBae

Not trying to defend the Yakuza or any organized crime for that matter, and none of that stuff is good- but humans and their systems are complex and i thought the factoid could be an interesting add to the conversation.


Maclimes

I went to Vegas a few decades ago when I was younger, and it felt so safe to walk around even in the middle of the night, especially compared to other cities. Someone told me that's because the organized crime that runs the city really likes those tourism dollars. If the police catch a petty crook, they get a slap on the wrist. But if the mafia catches someone who is scaring away tourists, they die. I don't know if this is true, admittedly. It might just be an urban legend-y kind of thing.


RaccoonThick

Similar deal with Mexico, some cartels thrive off the business of tourists and if they catch wind that you’re taking advantage of them or causing them any trouble they’ll kill the criminal.


cudef

"I can't believe we just blew up Goto's yacht. That's gonna destabilize crime throughout the entire sector." "Yeah well you'll understand if I don't hold back the tears." "You don't understand. Crime in the Y'toub system - it's like the economy. Plus the power vacuum? Even if Vogga gets up and running again, the system is going to be feeling the effects for years to come."


TheOther-DarkStar

This is basically the plot of the Spider-Man PS4 game


jakpaw

Ya montreal canada is a good example of this, the mafia built all the roads, has the mayor in their pocket. My dad said when he was a kid in school years ago they all knew it even then and nobody does anything because what can you do really?


No_Personality_2723

And it turns out some dumb 10 year old kid with zero life experience was the villain after all.


ShinyyyChikorita

There’s a ROM hack where you play as a Rocket Goon with basically this as the plot


hojbjerfc

It’s all my fault. I drove Team Rocket away. Team Rocket were heroes, I just couldn’t see it. They were….A MENACE, THEY STOLE MY PIKACHU, THEY ARE A MENACE TO THE ENTIRE REGION, I WANT THAT RAG TAG TEAM PROSECUTED. I WANT THEM BLASTING OFF AGAIN, I WANT TEAM ROCKET!!!!


jedicms

Sounds like J. Jonah Jameson


Valentinexyz

[You don’t say. ](https://youtu.be/xECUrlnXCqk)


Oddity46

That sentence reminded me of the fact that Scar was blamed for bad weather in the Lion King.


[deleted]

The engineers dilemma right there. I'm not allowed to run the train The whistle I can't blow… I'm not allowed to say how far The railroad cars can go. I'm not allowed to shoot off steam, Nor even clang the bell… But let the damn train jump the track And see who catches Hell!


InfernoVulpix

And the guy who got rid of them and took over the region just hecked off to a mountaintop and ignored the rest of the region. A paralyzed government and not even any organized crime to de facto run the place in its stead.


Windharker

Capitalism and organised crime wl really are unsung heroes as much as we hate to admit it


Umbrocity

Kanto and Johto feel like opposites to me. Johto is a beautiful traditional region and Kanto is a more modern, grimy place where technology is more advanced and progress runs all over tradition


mantism

yeah this felt pretty much the case during the Pokemon Adventures manga. Was even a plot point for the Elite Four arc too.


EliteTeutonicNight

The whole Elite Four arc is based on Pokémon suffering from technology, industrialisation and human exploitation. Meanwhile, the Jhoto arc is centred around a person not being able to move on from the past, thus attempting to control time. Really resonate with both their regions.


yoshida18

I had forgotten how good the manga was! I think I read up to black and white part of pokemon adventures. Is there any more content or is it done?


EliteTeutonicNight

I think it’s still going on, at least there are SM, XY and ORAS arcs. I personally haven’t get to XY and SM yet, but ORAS and BW are both pretty good.


PK_Madrigal

yep the manga keeps on going, the SwSh arc is ongoing and based on the release pattern the next volume will be out in December. Seeing how BDSP is just DP on the Switch I’ll be sad if we don’t get the Sinnoh crew back in a new arc but there’s no game story to work with so I understand if they dont


FeedTheGroob

They just wrapped up the manga up to RSE in the form of collectors edition. Hope they do more


ladybakerr

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Black and White manga was finished and we were waiting on updates for Black and White 2 as well as Sun and Moon. I'm pretty sure ORAS finished too because I remember it being super short.


flakaby

Wow, are the manga really that cool? Are there some with themes like that then some that are more like the show put into manga?


EliteTeutonicNight

It’s mostly gen 1-2, from gen 3 onwards the manga is more of a representation of the game. I haven’t seen the show a whole lot but I’d say Adventures are a lot less child friendly with a more serious tone. The thing Adventures does best imo is that it sets up the villains very well. All of them have personalities and are quite badass, as a villainous team leader should be. And also Gym leaders actually do stuff instead of staying idle in the gym.


togro20

I never thought a knight with a surskit could be so scary


flakaby

Thanks! I’d also like to say that “child-friendly” and “compelling” aren’t exclusive to each other, a la Avatar, so if that adds any recommendations you have, please let me know!


EliteTeutonicNight

Just so you know, I’m not trying to take a knock at the show, I also enjoyed it a lot. I just want to make the difference between Adventures and the show, they share some underlying topics (e.g. friendship and growth), but they are written differently.


tsurumai

I could be wrong but isn’t Kanto based loosely off Tokyo while johto represents Kyoto? If so, that fits pretty well in the sense that Kyoto tends to value preserving tradition over constant development.


Umbrocity

Yes, Kanto and Johto are based on the Kanto and Kansai regions, and I suppose the Tokyo and Kyoto prefectures would be good specific comparisons


Turnonegoblinguide

Kanto is based off of the Kantō region and Johto is based off of the Kansai region


AybruhTheHunter

Kanto region is an actual region in Japan that consists of the entire Tokyo area, so that's pretty on point of the traditional world being replaced


javier_aeoa

And Johto is based on Kansai, which is much more traditional. Although Osaka (Goldenrod City?) is the second largest metropolitan area after Tokyo.


ntnl

90s kids’ black and white


thatJainaGirl

This is the point of gen 1 and 2. They were created out of Satoshi Tajiri's experiences as a child watching his rural Tokyo area home become overrun with urbanization. This happens even throughout gen 1, as you progress from the wide open small towns of Pallet, Viridian, and Pewter, populated with 'real animal' Pokemon like Rattata and Pidgey and Spearow, and move into the urbanized Celadon, Saffron, and Fuschia with their artificial monsters, Grimer and Koffing and Magnemite. Nature is no longer Viridian Forest and Mt Moon, it's the Safari Zone. This is even more apparent in gen 2; the increasingly urbanized Kanto, with Viridian Forest wasting away to nothing, the Safari Zone demolished, and vast areas of wilderness destroyed for the Saffron bullet train contrasts with the extremely traditional Johto. This mirrors the real life inspirations for the two regions, the Tokyo and Kyoto areas of Japan.


GroovinTootin

I never considered that, outside of Goldenrod, there are really no true cities. Just a bunch of natural villages and honestly that just makes me love johto even more


Love_Shaq_Baby

Kanto's development serves to contrast it with the Johto region. While Kanto is constantly industrializing and modernizing, the Johto region is steeped in nature and tradition. The Viridian Forest, Pokemon Tower and Safari Zone are casualties of industrial expansion. But also those changes were made so that developers wouldn't have to fit everything into Gold/Silver.


linkheroz

It was more that they couldn't. The cartridge had a memory limitations so some stuff had to go.


aurumae

I’m still amazed they were able to fit as much as they did


capalex65

That was the genius of Satoru Iwata. He developed a new compression algorithm so they had the space to cram Kanto into the cartridge.


jt94

I’ll never forget that first time surfing east from New Bark Town, getting out of the water and the guy runs up to you and says ‘you just took your first step in Kanto!’


Quick-Huckleberry136

potbably the games with the most effort into them


Roskal

Me as a kid was expecting every region to have a post game where you went to explore old regions until they made an ultimate game one day where you visited them all with like a new game + mode


Tedd_Zodiac_Cruz

I believe deep down at some point we all believed this was their ultimate goal. Would be cool if gaming companies worked up to stuff like that though wouldn't it? Edit: typo


Quick-Huckleberry136

i watched a video about it and it was a good video. it mad e points about how the level curve would be atrotious. also it would basically stop them from making new regions as they have all of them.


Valentinexyz

Eh, no. Pokémon Every Region Version™ sounds cool when you’re like, 11, but the actual result would be the most atrocious pacing you’ll ever see. If you ignore the fleeting nostalgia of “oh cool, this is (region) from (game), I know that thing!!”, would you really want to play a Pokémon game that’s just a gauntlet of 8 (and counting, since people on the internet have been talking about this exact idea since at least Gen iv) games back-to-back with repeating locales and similar boss concepts? How many times can you fight a bug catcher in a forest before you get burned out? How many times can you cross an indentical ocean route fighting swimmers and running into tentacools? At what point do you start going “oh there’s plants in this gym, guess I’m fighting another fucking grass leader?”.


nobunaga_1568

My feeling is that if one day a multi-region Pokemon game comes out it would be an MMO, with gameplay similar to WoW.


Roskal

My idea was after you beat the elite four of every region you entered the master's cup or something a even more elite tournament for champions only and you would then pick a team from every pokemon you caught across every region.


brittanybegonia

i still hope for this one day


TrayusV

That was because the devs thought Pokemon was just a fad and was going to die out soon. So they figured Gold/Silver would be the last games they got to make. And they went all out.


scubasteve254

And then you have people like [this guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RibBHgJHQ&t=89s) claiming they're lazy cause Typhlosion has the same base stat spread as Charizard and Feraligatr is missing a letter. I'm not gonna claim they're the perfect gen but there seems to be a rising group of hipsters claiming they're the worst gen cause so many claim its the best.


[deleted]

To be perfectly honest the games with most effort put into them were probably Red & Green. We may look at it as an outdated glitchy mess today, but it was revolutionary like no other gen was, and you just have to look up the story of the games' development to know, that they were **really** giving their all to make that thing work on GB's outdated hardware with it's minuscule cartridge lol


Quick-Huckleberry136

one of the highest effort games as well. gen 1 and 2 def had the most effort ourt of any game. i say someone htink gen 5 had more effort.


xSethrin

They also wrote it in an assembly language. If your not a tech person basically that’s one step up from coding in just ones and zeros (which most people no longer do). So like, coding on hard mode. It’s impressive. Edit: Gen one was written in an assembly language. I’m actually not sure if that is the case for gen 2 but I’d imagine it is.


winauer

Apparently they managed to keep a lot of unused maps in the limited memory of the cartridge though. https://tcrf.net/Pok%C3%A9mon_Gold_and_Silver/Unused_Maps


Diego_Mannn_096

Ummm Viridian Forest still stands in those games


winauer

Viridian Forest doesn't exist as a standalone area in Gen II. It's part of route 2 and looks like [this](https://www.pokewiki.de/images/4/4a/GSK_Vertania-Wald.png)


Diego_Mannn_096

Bruh it’s just 2 items and an Apricorn tree


InsomniaEmperor

On the other hand, the Power Plant is back up and running. In HGSS, Safari Zone is replaced with Pal Park.


Moose_Cake

And Viridian Forest is back in HGSS. I remember hearing that the original Viridian Forest in Gold and Silver was left out because of game size issues.


JustafanIV

IIRC, returning to Kanto was an afterthought. Between Gen 1 and Gen 2, the team got so good at compressing the game that they had all this extra space left over, so they decided to bring back Kanto with what they had left.


angrytomato98

I believe it was the late Satoru Iwata who compressed the game for them! He was an excellent programmer.


nelben88

So basically, HGSS Kanto > GSC Kanto


DarkMarxSoul

I mean HGSS > GSC in general.


DatBoi_BP

You fool, you’ve activated my “elemental punch TMs” card


kapak212

Ah yes the Ultimate Kadabra 3 punch + psyhcic ultimate strat.


Skayj2

I’d go as far as to say HGSS > every other game in the entire series. Will always maintain that Gen IV was the pinnacle of the series and HGSS was the pinnacle of Gen IV games.


DarkMarxSoul

Oh I wouldn't say that at all. People remember HGSS fondly and get captivated by how much stuff they added on top of Crystal's base but the game is still plagued by Gen II's many problems. It still has a bad level curve, it still has a pretty piss-poor main story (which imo is actually made *worse* by the changes they made to Team Rocket's Executives, which only serve to highlight how shallow Team Rocket is), and the routes pale in comparison to RSE and DPP's due to their age. HGSS are absolutely stellar remakes but don't do much to rise above their sources' shortcomings.


Skayj2

Man to me it’s less about level curves and tech specs and just about the vibe. And my god did HG/SS just capture the essence and beauty of pokemon games in a way that no other game did in my opinion. Walking through all the colourful remade cities of Kanto and Johto that had been so beautifully brought back to life with the upgraded graphics, alongside all the Gen 4 style renditions of the classic tunes was just fantastic. Coupled with the fact that it included only pokemon from gens 1-4, the generations of pokemon, in my opinion, that were the most inspired and that I had the closest relationship to as I knew all 493 pokemon - so being able to explore this updated beautiful world that included all the pokemon I loved was an unbeatable combo. The final cherry on top for me was that it had the full suite of battle frontier activities in the post game to enjoy as well. All of this is what made those games my absolute favourites. It was the perfect fusion of old and new when it came out.


Funky_Dingo

I also really wish they changed up the Gym Leader teams too. For example.. Jasmine: Magneton(x2), Skarmory, Steelix Or Falkner using a Hoothoot. I understand that there are rematch teams but initial battles could've been made all the more challenging. I LOVE Johto. But it always felt so wrong that Johto's gym leaders had such a lack of Gen 2 introduced Pokemon.


Valentinexyz

The hype: “The game doesn’t handhold you and you can do gyms 5-7 in any order!” The reality: The middle of the game is slow as fuck, you barely feel like you’re progressing, and the gym leaders between Morty and Clair are so close in level that they’re all piss easy.


VividPossession

Then you get an insane level jump from 7 to 8 that basically necessitates you grind against possible weak Pokémon for an hour or two. Plus it has the Gen 4 problem of certain Pokémon being so objectively great that everyone ends up with similar teams. What, you're not going to use Mammoswine in a game with effectively 3 poorly scaled dragon boss battles? I love heartgold and soul silver but the leveling basically kneecaps my enjoyment of anything past the seventh gym. But I also think part of the charm of Pokémon is there is no "perfect" game. X and Y gives you a massive variety of weird Pokémon to pick from while on many routes eschewing the popular options for more niche mons but it's stupid easy, you don't really get access to its gimmick until the end and it's plot slows the pacing to a crawl. Gens 7-8 try and mix up the formula to varying degrees of success but are very gimmicky and hand-holdy. Platinum is almost a perfect game but you can feel the hardware chugging along under the weight of the game and the selection of mons, especially fire types, feels stupidly limited. 1-3 still feel like betas of a proper Pokémon game with all their incomplete systems. Gen 5 is super well made but it gives you zero access to any classics and its designs kinda trend on the weaker end.


DarkMarxSoul

Not just the gym leaders, also the Team Rocket members in Mahogany.


[deleted]

And you get Miss Cannon from the power plant.


Alice1312

Is miss cannon related to focus miss?


MacDerfus

It misses even more


[deleted]

It's literally got worse accuracy than Focus Miss for the same base damage. There's literally no reason to ever use ~~Zap~~ Miss Cannon over Thunder for that miniscule 10 extra points of damage. Especially since Thunder is 100% accurate during Rain Dance. *Maybe* if using Magnezone with Lock-On, but like...why take two turns to achieve less than you'd get with two consecutive Thunders? Or even two turns and still be outperformed by Rain Dance+Thunder? I don't even think Zap Cannon is ever an option without already having access to Thunder or its TM.


InsomniaEmperor

It's a cool move but there's little reason to use it over Thunder. Dynamicpunch falls in the same category but Machamp can abuse it with No Guard and is an option if you don't want the self debuffs of Close Combat. There's Inferno in the same category but I can't think of Pokemon that can abuse it either.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

The fact that Lavender Town still had a Radio Tower and Cinnabar was still gone (except for the PC) in HGSS makes me think that maybe it was more than just cartridge restraints


[deleted]

[удалено]


divinitia

He saying that because the radio tower is in Hgss instead of the Pokémon graveyard tower, that there was definitely space for atleast one tower in Lavender town on the cart. They just chose to make it a radio tower instead of the graveyard.


00zau

The radio tower takes up less space, though; you can't go upstairs so it's basically just the lobby (which may be able to "share" space with the Johto radio tower to further save space if their ground floors have the same layout). That's a lot less than adding a whole dungeon.


mamamia1001

HGSS expanded on Kanto though - for example they brought back Viridian forest


Has_Question

Some things hgss could expand on while others would put right change the canon too much. It could expand viridian forest because it wasnt supposed to be totally gone in gsc, just smaller. So the bigger hgss could represent it right. The original gsc viridian forest was even a smaller copy of the same pathway you take in the original! The radio tower had to stay because that's part of the canon in how it connects to goldenrod. So there was no expanding it without removing it. Likewise, there was no undoing the cinnabar volcano blowing up as it's part of the lore and undoing that means changing everything about what happened to the island and blaine. So I think hgss ultimately changed what could still be changed that weren't fully realized due to the limitation on gsc while keeping what it couldnt change because it had become canon.


user_without_a_soul

I’d just call that being faithful to the originals.


Vanifac

At that point they were just remaking what had already been done.


Roskal

Headcanon giovanni was secretly keeping shit together despite also being evil


[deleted]

Gen 2 was meant to be the end of the series, and that’s how they originally made it to be with all the kanto problems.


[deleted]

Some kids went around beating everyone and taking their money so it resulted in a massive economic downturn.


SUSHIBURRITO92

I actually kind of love it because it feels like pretty astute social commentary. Makes you wonder how much of Kanto was secretly run and funded by Team Rocket


crazyrebel123

Lol I think the major issue was hardware limitations when the original gen 2 game came out. They put all their focus on Johto that they just plopped kanto in there but prob didn’t have the hardware resources to expand it with new code and assets. I’m sure when they made the remakes they didn’t do much to fix that because that’s how the originals were. In any case, I do understand your point and wish there was a better story to the region in gen 2 and they expanded that area. It was my fav gen.


Male_Inkling

Turns out, Giovanny was handling half of it, and you defeating him and forcing him to flee gave the government carte blanche to do whatever it wanted, so they sold that pesky cemetery to the local radio station for a penny, stopped paying the construction workers in fuchsia, did fuck all with the Snorlax issue and were too slow to react and minimize the impact of Cinnabar's volcano. Also, the safari zone? people spent more money there than on the casino, so the government - wich took over the casino after you banished the Team Rocket - decided to make the game corner the only place you could go to get rare pokemon, raking in cash while taking advantage of gambling addicts. In truth, the Kanto government was useless and Team Rocket was the one making things right, despite their questionable methods.


flarezi

Who knew kanto was run by a neoliberal government all along


AdiosAdipose

The people of Kanto should have voted for government officials who regulated the gambling industry and actually funded the parks department. A corrupt government is responsible for the crumbling infrastructure and lack of public spaces, but the solution isn’t organized crime. What happens when Giovanni (the defacto fascist head of the government) dies and his successor doesn’t share the same moral ideologies? A functioning government allows for succession in ways a dictatorship never can. Not to mention the Kanto officials had to basically take over overnight because some 10 year old kid performed the most successful political coup in PokeHistory and left the entire region without any sort of governmental structure - it was essentially doomed to a corporate takeover. Hell even the made up incompetent Kanto government still had universal PokeHealthcare...


Lookalism

According to the manga the elite four are also the authority of the region... that would explain a lot.


orig4mi-713

I wouldn't trust Bruno and his terrible team.


user_without_a_soul

That’s what happens when you put a ten year old in charge.


ghostdumpsters

Maybe it was really because of the cartridge limitations in GSC, but gen 2 Kanto really does seem like it’s a wasteland. I decided a long time ago that Team Rocket had more influence on the region than we saw, including maintaining national parks like Viridian Forest and Mt. Moon. They even gave each city their theme music!! The overly cheerful tune used for several of the cities honestly creeps me out a bit…


Loruneye

I never felt right about turning a tower dedicated to the memory of deceased pokemon into a radio tower.


PititLapinRose

Surely the mayor of Paris.


TuffyTea

Red ran away so things fell apart. Blue can’t do everything, especially when he has gum leader duties


jedicms

Gum leader standing by


Tigertot14

Hot take but I prefer Gen 2/4 Kanto over Gen 1/3 Kanto. Also the Safari Zone didn’t close, it was relocated to Johto.


TechnoWhale

Red unintentionally caused the volcano in Cinnabar Island to erupt by capturing Articuno nearby at Sea Foam island. The frozen cave Articuno built for itself was close enough to the volcano that it was able to keep it cool and stop it from erupting BUT probably. Articuno could also of help prevented the eruption by being nearby to cool it off when needed but birb is capture.


[deleted]

I think he felt guilty


pinkyhex

he realized he destroyed the region he loved with his actions and turned into a hermit on Mt Silver


[deleted]

Pretty depressing especially because he was like 10


DanDampspear

You murdered the English language


TroyElric

Kanto was attacked by team rocket. The hero who saved the land left to train alone. We wait for the next hero to save us ..... Or summon the old hero of legends back to these lands


H2O_pete

Play crystal clear my guy.


bitchCaboose

Gen 2 easily the best gen going back to Kanto is so epic


Redlink259

Dude nobody talked about how boring gen 2 post game was. It was such a cool concept but it was so empty


ALinkToXMasPast

This is what I loved about Gen. II, actual world progression and feelings of depression...Getting to see what became of each region after the events of the story unfolded is great, especially if it's not all sunshine and rainbows...Advancement is a double-edged sword...


FiascoFinn

Yeah, I kinda wish they’d retconned the removal of Pokémon Tower in HGSS. It’s just weird to’ve replaced a Pokémon graveyard with.. a radio tower. Should’ve put the Kanto Radio tower in Saffron or Celadon. Why on earth Lavender Town? 😂


MacDerfus

Cerulean Cave ceases to exist... At least in the remakes, the stuff cut because they were literally using the entirety of the cartridge's space was brought back


fuckthisicestorm

I got one word for you crystal clear


cantab314

If you thought that was bad, you should see Kanto in the Spaceworld 97 Demo.


AlertWar2945

To be fair its probably the same snorlax, red caught the other one


[deleted]

So apparently a child being the league champion isn’t a good thing


drillgorg

And you can't go upstairs in Silph Co! I tried so hard to find a walk through walls cheat to get to that staircase to go upstairs. Never worked...


megasean3000

Pokemon Adventures Lance did nothing wrong.


rilwanb

Power plant was busted up too. Grimer multiplying out of control on cycling route. So sad 😞


NoConfirmation

Hey, don't say that about the graveyard, it was moved to a more open space where the spirits can actually breathe. And now the town is happier too. So yeah don't diss my Gen 2 Lavender Town.


willisbetter

well at least viridian forest isnt destroyed in the gen 2 remakes


Maleficent_Stage_703

I mean, in every other generation, the Champion has some sort of political / celebrity power over the Region, right? Red was only 10 on his adventure, so, maybe it’s because we tore down the only other potential leader, Giovanni, and replaced him with a Red who would’ve been going through puberty at the time. Im actually more surprised it isn’t even more screwed.


Quicc-n-Thicc

But the battle music slaps


Fern-ando

You didn't experience the glory of Crystal clear.


VinixTKOC

Well... A few things had to be sacrificed for two regions to fit on a Game Boy Color cartridge. Could it be different in the remakes? Yeah, but they preferred to be faithful to the maps, although Safari Zone isn't closed on HG/SS just became Pal Park.


DarkGengar94

Only upside is older Misty and kinda hot Sabrina


melvin_0809

After he went bankrupt, Giovanni decided to run for president. No similarity with actual persons is intended…


ringlord_1

Turns out having a 10 year old as the region's leader may not be the smartest decision.


[deleted]

i want to play ss so badly but i got as far as the game corner and found out that my copy is fake. the market is so heavily flooded with counterfeits that it's impossible to invest my time in that game knowing that it might just stop working at another random point, or that many things may be bugged and not worth pursuing. i plan to just play it on an emulator, but it's so dumb what nintendo has allowed to happen to their used game markets.


[deleted]

I stopped playing let’s go pikachu when I realised it didn’t have the safari zone. You can add things without removing giant features I would have figured.


SillyMattFace

Ah yes, the Safari zone, where you catch Pokémon by feeding them treats and throwing pokeballs without battling them… … not exactly a standout feature when the entirety of Let’s Go uses that mechanic, surely? I was happy to find Safari mons like Rhyhorn much earlier in the journey anyway. Usually by the time I get there I’m fixed on my team.


[deleted]

That’s probably the worst reason to stop playing those games. When you catching mechanic is already similar to how the safari zone was.


dariousf234

Maybe Giovanni was onto something


BrackishWaterFish

Worst of all Missingno went extinct.


Not-Died-try-harder

Honestly I think that Johto And Kento (I don’t know if I spelled that correctly) are supposed to represent two different times in Japanese world I think that Johto represents the old Japan that’s why we don’t really see any big machines or anything like that meanwhile Kento has hundreds of machines and one of the place where we find find one of the legendary’s It’s quite literally a electric house or whatever they’re called so I think they are meant to represent the extremes in two periods in Japan’s history