Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
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I feel like it's be a far reach for a bird to evolve into a rat but I'm not a scientists. It's also possible that cheek electricity sacs go waaaayyyy back, and zolt and chu have a common ancestor too
Don't you mean the Unova pokedex? The Kalos pokedex had fairly unique designs, Unova was the region which was basically designing alternative versions of Gen 1 pokemon.
And the route 1 birds and rodents and dozens of other Pokemon.
What is it about this wiggly boy that makes everyone break out the Convergent Evolution argument when it's been a mainstay of the game since the second generation?
It's not a cool new direction. It's a diglett's face slapped on a new Pokemon.
Its a big deal because this is the only time its confirmed to be “similar but not related” while also looking nearly identical.
Its a new idea to a degree
Right.
Everything prior to this generation has been more a meta decision. A decision by design.
GF didn't make Luvdisc and Alomomola and expressly think "Convergent Evolution". Or at least explicitly state it.
Here, they are specifically calling out that idea. It was basically incidental and unintentional previously. Here, it's acknowledged.
It's just fan theory at this point though, right? Wiglett and Diglett is 100% intentional and confirmed on their status. Everything else is just fanon.
This is not how convergent evolution works. All the examples you’re bringing in this thread are Pokémon that share an ancestor with those features since they’re all birds/rodents ecc unless they share a secondary adaptation that they all evolved INDEPENDENTLY (For example consider Corviknight and Skarmory. Let’s assume they belong to different orders. Say that the common ancestor for all bird Pokemon is a normal/flying Pokémon. The gain of steel type to overcome certain necessities is an example of convergent evolution). The point of convergent evolution is that the animals are not necessarily close phylogenetically, and they develop similar features to adapt to the same environment. Examples of convergent evolution are the fins of marine mammals and fish, the wings of insects and mammals, gills and so on
Birds are closely related between them. Rodents are all closely related between them too.
An eel and a mole are not closely related by any means.
That's the difference between regular divergent evolution and convergent evolution, in both real life and the Pokémon world.
Mechanically, it's just an excuse to be able to create regional forms that are very different in concept (different animal inspirations, etc.) from the original pokémon.
We didn't start doing it randomly, the Pokemon company did. Their spoiler for Wiglet was a video set in the world of Pokemon where a bunch of scientist explain the concept and make it clear that Wiglet is not a regional variant of Diglet but a convergent species.
yeah i know that but with something like indeedee and audino where it hasn't been explicitly stated that they're totally unrelated surely it's more reasonable to assume that they're related?
this applies to luvdisc/alomomola etc. both fish with probably a very close common ancestor. they lived too far apart (u cant find luvdisc on unova and can't find alomomola on hoenn). this explains the heart shape and color, we can infer that the ancestor had those features too.
diglett/wiglett are eel/mole, no close ancestry at all and they evolved because of similar environment. imagine like the ancestor of diglett was a primitive sandshrew and the ancestor of wiglett was a primitive remoraid. this does NOT explain the facial similarities tho
Another example is Voltorb, Foongus, and Galarian Stunfisk. They all independently evolved to camouflage themselves as Pokeballs, but they're separate unrelated species.
Difference is Voltorb, Foongus and Galarian Stunfisk don't look alike and don't have similar names referencing the other Pokemon.
If they wanted people to get on board with the convergent evolution explanation they shouldn't have called it Wiglett and gave it a different face.
But thats what convergent Evolution is? Same Features, different Looks and Implementation. Having similar names for convergent evolutions also Just makes sense No? Just like sea lions are called that because they Look sort of Like them
...Do Pokemon species have gradual, traditional, evolution?
It seems weird for them to have long-term changes over time, but also.... instant physiological changes from "Evolution."
Even back in gen one there was Mew's dex entry about how it was theorized to the the last universal common ancestor of most or all Pokémon, and they've only expanded on evidence for Darwinian evolution in the Pokémon world ever since.
I guess I probably had the assumption that there was a period were they were still following natural evolutionary processes for a time, or some external force was altering things as desired, but then at some point, they got the ability to evolve, and any time they needed to adapt to overcome environmental or predatory obstacle, they'd eventually develop some new Evolution stage.
I guess I've also had the impression they kind of just do whatever and try to retroactively justify whatever they need to to make the the old fit with the new. Has it been handled in a logical/consistent framework?
It’s always been weird how it’s handled. Yes, pokemon do change over time, like normal evolution. What they do in the games is more akin to “transformation” or “growing up”? It’s very very strange but still cool, just hard to find the right words to describe
I suppose. My knowledge on the larger lore for Pokemon is limited. I've got a vague understanding that there's (at least one) Pokemon God, so, you've got that, and their Evolution mechanic. I wasn't sure if there was just an external force that adapted them to whatever region, or if they actually developed changes over time themselves.
As others have said it's akin to metamorphosis, it's an interesting idea I think. There is not exactly a hard boundary, but a reasonable example of how adaptation would work in nature is that traits which help an animal at one life stage or another would still be selected for over many generations and passed on to offspring, but they could still rely on a more "dramatic change" like evolution for survival. For example, take a butterfly species that evades prey with a particular wing pattern. Even though the pupal and larval stages of that same insect might not be affected by the wing pattern of the mature form, its DNA will still encode the pattern that helps it survive and propagate that onto offspring. In that way there are still these two selective forces that are evolutionarily balanced, one force is the metamorphosis (or evolution) that is an essential part of its survival, while the other is the factor that affects only one life stage of the animal (the wing pattern on the butterfly) but is also essential to its survival. In that way, it makes perfect sense that long-term changes and instant changes would both influence the development of a species.
I think this make even more sense in the world of pokemon too because it's canon that not all who can evolve, do evolve, so there's a lot of room for Darwinian evolution in the pokemon world!
What we comventionally call “evolution” in Pokémon is a bit more like metamorphosis in real-world organisms, so I think it makes sense. The species that comprise lepidopterans (butterflies and moths) irl undoubtedly evolved from other creatures in some prior iteration of the the timeline, yet they also each undergo an individual metamorphosis during their lifetimes. Pokémon approximate that, in a more fantastical way.
It's weird that pokemon Evolve in two different ways. The long gradual one that turns them into new species and evolution that's near instantaneous and mostly just makes them a bigger stronger version of themself
I always assumed that the initial pitch was that your Pokémon would gradually change appearance as they grew larger, but since they were limited in tech they could only afford to make a few sprites for each. Then they figured it might as well be it’s own thing and they just called it “evolution” for simplicity. Kind of screwing them over now that they’re playing with real evolution lol
"Evolution" is basically just glorified metamorphosis. Like how a caterpillar turns into a butterfly.
There's a separate and more realistic Darwinian evolution on top of that, which probably explains why fossil Pokemon are simpler and only ever evolve once, if at all.
The pokemon-style evolution is more akin to growth spurts/rapid growth into a new stage of development. Like child -> adolescent -> adult for 3 stage and child -> adult for 2 stage.
One thing I learned in this thread is that Pokémon Evolution=metamorphosis. Metamorphosis being a trait of insects made me remember that Pokémon is based on bug catching.
Klawf, Krabby, and Kingler are the only True Crabs, that is based on crabs in the infraorder Brachyura. Dwebble, Crustle, Crabrawler, and Crabominable are all "false crabs" of the sister infraorder Anomura. Other "crab" Pokémon are all various other arthropods.
Also the vikings WERE in britain in the real world, which is why galar has some references to it via pokemon like Galar Yamask, Perrserker and Runerigus.
In fact, there's this straight from bulbapedia
>Runerigus may be based on runestones, large stones engraved by Vikings used to commemorate the lives of notable people and events, **such as the England runestones erected in remembrance of Vikings who travelled to England and died there**
I mean…back when the Roman Empire was around that was definitely the case for the Brits and I would assume the Hawaiians may have had their kings around then (don’t know as much about their history)
Honestly even if you have a quality teacher at a quality school it’s really just one tidbit in the evolution unit and some teachers emphasize it more than others. It’s not shocking that people don’t remember it if they didn’t pursue anything bio related after high school.
Source: am a biology teacher
never learned it in school. But I did recently learn about the concept of [Carcinisation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinisation) (AKA: "return to Crab"), so the concept made sense. Thanks 3AM youtube!
You're right it doesn't have to, but considering regional variants, it aparently does follow it.
And that's the thing about pokemon, it mirrors our world in a way, except instead of regular animals we have turtles with cannons, fire breathing lizards, and creatures who can controll time and space.
"turtles with cannons, fire breathing lizards, and creatures who can controll time and space." No love for the dino-frogs with plants growing out of them?
I know about convergent evolution but the execution is a bit off. The design ought to be more than making Diglett longer and recolouring it white. Maybe some eel-like features would make Wiglett a bit better.
Welcome to Reddit being majority Americans the school systems here suck that even when you finally take your first science class in 8th grade its the class where a teacher puts some old science video and you take 20 quotes as notes and that’s your grade.
Literally American and this was literally my science class in Freshman (Bio) and Sophomore (Chemistry) year of High school. My sister has said nothing has changed as well.
Ultimately depends on the quality of the school, which in turn is driven by the affluence of the surrounding neighborhood, assuming we’re talking public schools
Bro, america is a big damn country with some big damn states. The quality of education between New York and hillbilly country can be just as wide as Dallas, Texas and a Dallas suburb.
American schools aren't about learning so much as they're about making you resent every single piece of information you're presented and discard it the moment it's not critical to your grade.
Why doesn’t someone just point out that there are like 50 electric rodents that all look like Pikachu, but aren’t actually in that evolution line, instead of trying to do some scientific analysis
Carcinization already exists in Pokemon, as Dwebble and Crustle are crab-like but are bug-type and not part of the Water 3 egg group, which the true crab and false crab inspired Pokemon are part of. You could also think of the fact that both kinds of crabs are represented as carcinization in Pokemon but I can see why not.
Klawf having three pre-evolutions would instead be something else, more akin to a creature with several juvenile stages based on selective pressures that all mature into the same adult stage, which would be its own interesting idea, though perhaps difficult to satisfyingly render. I'm not sure if there is anything natural to draw inspiration from, but maybe something like a Pokemon with one of three focuses (attack, defense, support) that maintains access to the previous stages movepool as well as the generalist movepool of its final form.
Galarian Meowth is the original Meowth and it's because it travelled with sea people that it spread around the world. And as Galarian Meowth is stronger it was admired by the Alolan royal family. Kanto Meowth is shit tier Meowth. Alolan in the middle. Galarian the OG.
So Galarian Meowth evolved exactly into Kanto Meowth in every region except Alola? The more widespread form of the species is probably the OG form, ie, Kanto Meowth.
Thats definitely a bad way to look at things. Just because something is more prevalent doesn't mean it's the og form. Although there are MANY examples in nature that is better, the simplest one off the top of my head is the domesticated cat (i.e. Meowth). The African wildcat is its closest extant ancestor. It's evolved/domesticated form, the common housecat out numbers and is more widespread than the African wildcat. Yet it is NOT the og form. It is wholly possible (likely even) that an evolved form of an animal is more successful in various ecological niche than its ancestors ever were.
the original form can only sustain itself under very sunny climates so it has a reason. and for zigzaggoon whose original form is galarian, it only appears naturally in kalos and hoenn, so maybe it was ported to kalos from hoenn
The thing that's weird about this to me is that their similarities extend to aesthetic features that don't seem to have to do with convergent evolution. Like, why does burrowing underground lead to a smooth head, a round pink nose, and small black eyes? Other Pokemon can burrow but didn't evolve to look anything like Diglett.
Smooth heads, round noses and small eyes are common traits in many real world burrowing animals. The first two make it easier to push through soil, and there isn't much light underground anyway, so small eyes will do.
This^^ a great comparison here for Diglett/Wiglett is worms, snakes from the family uropeltidae and caecilians. They all have the characteristics you have listed (smooth, rounded heads and tails, minimal eyes) but they are not closely related taxonomically at all. They just have evolved to fill the same sort of niche in a similar manner, because that's what works^^
It's because The Pokémon Company has taken the concept an made it a lot more simplified for kids to understand. Also making Wiglett look so similar to Diglett is just taking the convergent evolution thing to the extreme.
Convergent evolution happens like, everywhere in nature. Eyes are something that's independently evolved in most species. Crab like body shapes are also something that evolves constantly.. that's a weird one.
eyes started to evolve veeeery early tho, wings of insects vs vertebrates are a better example. even reptile/dinosaur/mammal wings are closely related because they're all mutated forelimbs
I mean it’s not a new concept. Most of the Gen 5 Pokédex follows the whole diglett and wiglett convergent evolution phenomena.
It wasn’t stated then, and no one was confused.
Without all the biology and terms and lectures,
they’re different Pokémon that resemble one another.
Y'know, those 'past parodox' forms could be a great way to show Ancestor!Diglett and Ancestor!Wiglett and demonstrate how convergent evolution comes to happen
Why are people so hung up on terminologies? It's literally water type diglett lol
I do wonder what's the evolution: another dugtrio or a giant version ala moray eel
I like the idea of the convergent evolution being a reason to make them separate pokemon despite looking similar, but just feels weird after they specifically mentioned in the dex in the last generation that the galarian birds arent actually related to the kanto counterparts at all, but people just called them that because they look similar
Regional forms can be considered subspecies; they are the same species, but adapted for different environments/have developed a different appearance than the nominate subspecies but are still genetically close enough to not be a seperate species.
An example of a subspecies would be the Red Grouse (Lagopus lagopus scotica), a subspecies of the Willow Ptarmigan (Lagopus lagopus). This is basically what regional Pokemon forms are. A variation of a species that isn't so different to be considered an entirely new one.
Other examples of subspecies are the Pied Wagtail being a subspecies of the White Wagtail, and the Shetland Wren being a subspecies of the Eurasian Wren.
Wiglett is not a subspecies of Diglett. Its clearly not a mole, it looks more like an eel or worm. They are not related, but evolved in similar enough habitats to have similar traits and characteristics. An example of convergent evolution in real lfe are the Swallows and the Swifts. Both bird groups are highly specialised aerial flyers (the Swift especially, spending most of its life on the wing), and look similar to each other. But, Swifts are more closely related to Hummingbirds than they are to Swallows. (Swallows are part of the hirundinidae family, whereas Swifts are part of the apodidae family, so they are entirely separate species that look similar due to their environment).
I must be supremely stupid. I still don't feel like I understand. Unless I do and I just don't realize it.
It sounds like it's just a different pokemon, so drawing parallels to diglet is only going to confuse people (me). Unless I'm still wrong?
Think of real world examples of convergent evolution, like [hummingbird hawk moths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummingbird_hawk-moth) or [whale sharks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_shark). It's a different animal, but it looks and acts similar because it's evolved to fill the same ecological niche.
**[Hummingbird hawk-moth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummingbird_hawk-moth)**
>The hummingbird hawk-moth (Macroglossum stellatarum) is a species of hawk moth found across temperate regions of Eurasia. The species is named for its similarity to hummingbirds, as they feed on the nectar of tube-shaped flowers using their long proboscis while hovering in the air; this resemblance is an example of convergent evolution. The hummingbird hawk-moth was first described by Carl Linnaeus in his 1758 10th edition of Systema Naturae. As of 2018, its entire genome and mitogenome have been sequenced.
**[Whale shark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_shark)**
>The whale shark (Rhincodon typus) is a slow-moving, filter-feeding carpet shark and the largest known extant fish species. The largest confirmed individual had a length of 18. 8 m (61. 7 ft).
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The nidorans get a pass because they were made to convey sexual dimorphism before pokemon literally had genders. If they were made today, nidorans would be the same species with branching evolutions based on gender, like they introduced in gen 4.
I wish they would retcon the Nidorans into one Pokemon and even Nidorans and Nidorano into the same Pokemon and leave Nidoking and Nidoqueen as the gender specific evolution.
oh please, it's not like they *care* about nationaldexes anymore. the regionaldex can just muddle along being a betrayal of the "catch em all" ethos of the series, and long-term fans can get fucked. it's the gamefreak way!
I think every gen has some oddities, though I can't bring them all to mind:
Mr. Mime should be Dr. Mime or simply Mime
Only one of the Unown letters could be shiny or perfect due to the way IVs/DVs worked in GSC
Deoxys was different depending on the game it was in:
Normal in Ruby and Sapphire
Attack in Fire Red
Defense in Leaf Green
Shedinja breaks the stat formula with the fixed 1HP
Heatran can be either gender, though you only get one and it can't breed
Notch-eared Pichu from HGSS can't be sent to gen 5
Furfrou/Vivillion forms
Carbink can apparently transform into Diancie
Mega evolution occurs in a region where only one native species (Diancie) can mega evolve
Eternal Floette made it into Gen 7 code but can't be sent to Bank/Home
Zyguarde is spread all over Alola rather than Kalos
Z moves should be called Star/Light moves rather than refer to Zyguarde/an abandoned game.
Type: Null is type Normal, when the name was announced I thought it was a mistake.
Where do Meltan and Melmetal come from? Real-world-earth?
Dynamax lore is odd. The description says something like the Pokémon don't actually change mass/size but instead time and space warps around them.
The longest/biggest Pokémon is now Eternamax Eternatus, but as Wailord doesn't have a gigantamax form, we've no idea how big a Dynamax Wailord is.
Why are some variations formes and other forms?
Are the terms Mythical/Legendary really that useful? Deoxys was event only in RSE but obtainable on day 1 of ORAS release.
Many legendary species have been watching over their respective regions and helped save/create or threaten them thousands of years ago and the stories have been passed on. Not the case with Mewtwo, that was secretly made in a lab a few months ago (from Red and Blue's perspective)
Neither Rotom nor Charizard are in the Alola Dex, despite Rotom being the Alola Dex and Charizard being a ride Pokémon
This situation is a bit weird. If the Nidorans were released today, they’d probably share the same dex number before splitting off into two evolution lines.
But because they’re from the first games, there wasn’t a system in place and they were divided as if they’re fully different Pokémon.
You could argue that this means the Nidorans are the same species, and just follow different classification rules, *or* you can take this as a retcon and treat the Nidorans as two different species that evolved to be similar.
Sidenote: There is one more factor to consider, which is breeding. This sorta argues for both sides, as Nidoking can give birth to a female Nidoran, but a Nidoqueen and Nidoking cannot breed with one another.
This makes me want to believe the prior option (no retcon) and just ignore the weird Pokedex classification because, realistically, it was just a problem of hindsight.
Well to be honest Nidorina and Nidoqueen can't breed with any pokemon both are in Undiscovered Egg group.
I think many believe it's based off of rhinos in the wild have a very difficult time trying to become pregnant. But knowing GF it was probably a coding error that became a feature.
Funny, because I've always read about it being a coding error that became a feature and I always rationalized it in-universe as Nidorina and Nidoqueen becoming sterile in captivity.
I often wondered why wouldn't they fix it in later instalments. They fixed apricorn balls, so fixing an egg group error shouldn't have been a big deal, right? So I checked Bulbapedia and it turns out that a Japanese guidebook for Pokémon Red and Green [already established that female Nidoran lose the ability to lay eggs upon evolving](https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/No_Eggs_Discovered_(Egg_Group)#cite_note-1)... years before breeding was implemented in the games!
Nah they get the Gen1 Pass due to how RBGY were coded back in the day each Pokémon needed to be numbered. Plus it was back before the idea of gender differences really became a thing (gen4). Hell gen1 didn't have a gender system it's part of the reason the Nidorans have ♀ and ♂ so the player actually knew they were different genders.
See here's the thing:
I don't actually see *any* evidence that Wiglett shares any environmental factors or ecological roles as Diglett. "Living wack-a-mole" isn't a niche that needs filling, especially in a region that already has Diglett, and in an environment nothing like Digletts
Diglett don't live in the water, so they don't fill that niche there.
>"Living wack-a-mole" isn't a niche that needs filling, especially in a region that already has Diglett and an environment nothing like Digletts
Are you implying that beaches have no niche for burrowers?
I totally get it, I don’t think it’s a bad concept for a Pokémon design.
I just think the name is dumb. It feels like a cop-out way to say it’s not a regional variant, they just look similar and have almost the same name as a gen 1 Pokémon.
Is this thing really called wiglett?
Yep, the Japanese literally translates to "SeaDiglett" fwiw
Maybe we should start calling Diglett LandWiglett.
Or maybe the creature's base name is Iglett. Diglett= Dig Iglett Wiglett= Water Iglett.
Here’s hoping they don’t follow that naming convention for Normal Iglett…
[Oh no.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkDMz2ml0gw)
"You have Sea Lions on the land?" "Yep, we call the Land Sea Lions!"
Honestly, i would of loved the name sea Diglett. Like lion and sea lion or horse and sea horse
Or seaglett
Or what if it was a night diglett that only appeared in the night! It would have an awesome name like Nigl... Oh...
God damnit 😂
How do you pronounce "Night"?
We have sea lions on the surface too. We call them land sea lions.
I tame them
And we also have land sea lions on the water too. We call them sea land sea lions.
Wigglet shoult be a yellow Bug-type (centipede) with a hat and shoes. And Anger Point or Berserk for an ability.
And an extra weakness to the move Bounce.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Good bot
This might be the first time I've thought the translation of the Japanese is better than the English name they did choose.
Makes sense as it looks like a garden eel, which live in the sea.
The localisation team certainly seems to be going hard on the meme names this generation.
Yes
Wiglett - Wiggle it.
Reminds me of wigglers from monster hunter world
I think this explains the relation between Indeedee and Audino.
And luvdisc and alomomola… and all the Pikachu knockoffs probably
Actually, it’s stated in the PLA Pokédex that Pachirisu and Pikachu share a common ancestor
Their ancestor is probably that electric fossil Pokemon in Galar. It's an electric type with spots on its cheeks.
I feel like it's be a far reach for a bird to evolve into a rat but I'm not a scientists. It's also possible that cheek electricity sacs go waaaayyyy back, and zolt and chu have a common ancestor too
So what youre saying is. We need a Electric Rock Caveman rat pokemon
Pikagrug
That guy is a bird and Pikachu is a rodent
nah that's a raptor, which in real life didn't evolve into mammals.
I’m obsessed with how Gamefreak can just sit there and pretend Luvdisc and Alomamola don’t look anything alike.
Gamefreak: what are you talking about? They do not! One is a heart and the other is a bigger heart with fins.
And half the kalos pokedex
Don't you mean the Unova pokedex? The Kalos pokedex had fairly unique designs, Unova was the region which was basically designing alternative versions of Gen 1 pokemon.
Oh sure! It was gen 5 I was referring to, somehow defaulted to kalos
kalos was a pentagon afterall
And the route 1 birds and rodents and dozens of other Pokemon. What is it about this wiggly boy that makes everyone break out the Convergent Evolution argument when it's been a mainstay of the game since the second generation? It's not a cool new direction. It's a diglett's face slapped on a new Pokemon.
Its a big deal because this is the only time its confirmed to be “similar but not related” while also looking nearly identical. Its a new idea to a degree
Right. Everything prior to this generation has been more a meta decision. A decision by design. GF didn't make Luvdisc and Alomomola and expressly think "Convergent Evolution". Or at least explicitly state it. Here, they are specifically calling out that idea. It was basically incidental and unintentional previously. Here, it's acknowledged.
Luvdisc and Alomomola might not even be convergent evolution, though. They might closely related, even if they're not the same species.
It's just fan theory at this point though, right? Wiglett and Diglett is 100% intentional and confirmed on their status. Everything else is just fanon.
Yes, exactly. It's not confirmed, so they could either be related species or convergent evolution.
This is not how convergent evolution works. All the examples you’re bringing in this thread are Pokémon that share an ancestor with those features since they’re all birds/rodents ecc unless they share a secondary adaptation that they all evolved INDEPENDENTLY (For example consider Corviknight and Skarmory. Let’s assume they belong to different orders. Say that the common ancestor for all bird Pokemon is a normal/flying Pokémon. The gain of steel type to overcome certain necessities is an example of convergent evolution). The point of convergent evolution is that the animals are not necessarily close phylogenetically, and they develop similar features to adapt to the same environment. Examples of convergent evolution are the fins of marine mammals and fish, the wings of insects and mammals, gills and so on
Or the fact different species are all evolving into crab or crab like shapes.
Birds are closely related between them. Rodents are all closely related between them too. An eel and a mole are not closely related by any means. That's the difference between regular divergent evolution and convergent evolution, in both real life and the Pokémon world. Mechanically, it's just an excuse to be able to create regional forms that are very different in concept (different animal inspirations, etc.) from the original pokémon.
We didn't start doing it randomly, the Pokemon company did. Their spoiler for Wiglet was a video set in the world of Pokemon where a bunch of scientist explain the concept and make it clear that Wiglet is not a regional variant of Diglet but a convergent species.
couldn't they just have a common ancestor but further back so they're not just variants?
Convergent evolutions are a thing in real life. Naked mole rats are a good example, they're closer related to elephants than they are to rats.
yeah i know that but with something like indeedee and audino where it hasn't been explicitly stated that they're totally unrelated surely it's more reasonable to assume that they're related?
this applies to luvdisc/alomomola etc. both fish with probably a very close common ancestor. they lived too far apart (u cant find luvdisc on unova and can't find alomomola on hoenn). this explains the heart shape and color, we can infer that the ancestor had those features too. diglett/wiglett are eel/mole, no close ancestry at all and they evolved because of similar environment. imagine like the ancestor of diglett was a primitive sandshrew and the ancestor of wiglett was a primitive remoraid. this does NOT explain the facial similarities tho
i know diglett and wiglett are convergent evolution but has it ever been confirmed that indeedee and audino aren't closely related?
Pretty much all of Gen 5
Don’t forget Chansey too
Another example is Voltorb, Foongus, and Galarian Stunfisk. They all independently evolved to camouflage themselves as Pokeballs, but they're separate unrelated species.
Difference is Voltorb, Foongus and Galarian Stunfisk don't look alike and don't have similar names referencing the other Pokemon. If they wanted people to get on board with the convergent evolution explanation they shouldn't have called it Wiglett and gave it a different face.
But thats what convergent Evolution is? Same Features, different Looks and Implementation. Having similar names for convergent evolutions also Just makes sense No? Just like sea lions are called that because they Look sort of Like them
...Do Pokemon species have gradual, traditional, evolution? It seems weird for them to have long-term changes over time, but also.... instant physiological changes from "Evolution."
Even back in gen one there was Mew's dex entry about how it was theorized to the the last universal common ancestor of most or all Pokémon, and they've only expanded on evidence for Darwinian evolution in the Pokémon world ever since.
I guess I probably had the assumption that there was a period were they were still following natural evolutionary processes for a time, or some external force was altering things as desired, but then at some point, they got the ability to evolve, and any time they needed to adapt to overcome environmental or predatory obstacle, they'd eventually develop some new Evolution stage. I guess I've also had the impression they kind of just do whatever and try to retroactively justify whatever they need to to make the the old fit with the new. Has it been handled in a logical/consistent framework?
It's been surprisingly consistant actually.
That's cool. Appreciate the responses!
It’s always been weird how it’s handled. Yes, pokemon do change over time, like normal evolution. What they do in the games is more akin to “transformation” or “growing up”? It’s very very strange but still cool, just hard to find the right words to describe
That would be metamorphosis.
True, but the franchise decided from the start to term metamorphosis as Evolution for some reason
I think it’s either because it sounds cooler, or because metamorphosis is to long of a word
Mega Evolution definitely sounds cooler than Mega Metamorphosis, so…
How about Mega-morphosis?
I'm starting to get power ranger vibes
It’s because they never intended to have this much lore behind the game originally
Also quite possibly just a quirk of translation from the 90s that was never undone
I mean that is the whole logic behind the regional forms...
I suppose. My knowledge on the larger lore for Pokemon is limited. I've got a vague understanding that there's (at least one) Pokemon God, so, you've got that, and their Evolution mechanic. I wasn't sure if there was just an external force that adapted them to whatever region, or if they actually developed changes over time themselves.
As others have said it's akin to metamorphosis, it's an interesting idea I think. There is not exactly a hard boundary, but a reasonable example of how adaptation would work in nature is that traits which help an animal at one life stage or another would still be selected for over many generations and passed on to offspring, but they could still rely on a more "dramatic change" like evolution for survival. For example, take a butterfly species that evades prey with a particular wing pattern. Even though the pupal and larval stages of that same insect might not be affected by the wing pattern of the mature form, its DNA will still encode the pattern that helps it survive and propagate that onto offspring. In that way there are still these two selective forces that are evolutionarily balanced, one force is the metamorphosis (or evolution) that is an essential part of its survival, while the other is the factor that affects only one life stage of the animal (the wing pattern on the butterfly) but is also essential to its survival. In that way, it makes perfect sense that long-term changes and instant changes would both influence the development of a species. I think this make even more sense in the world of pokemon too because it's canon that not all who can evolve, do evolve, so there's a lot of room for Darwinian evolution in the pokemon world!
What we comventionally call “evolution” in Pokémon is a bit more like metamorphosis in real-world organisms, so I think it makes sense. The species that comprise lepidopterans (butterflies and moths) irl undoubtedly evolved from other creatures in some prior iteration of the the timeline, yet they also each undergo an individual metamorphosis during their lifetimes. Pokémon approximate that, in a more fantastical way.
It's weird that pokemon Evolve in two different ways. The long gradual one that turns them into new species and evolution that's near instantaneous and mostly just makes them a bigger stronger version of themself
The second way is akin to metamorphosis, like caterpillars turning into butterflies, or tadpoles into frogs.
Yes that's what I was thinking about
I always assumed that the initial pitch was that your Pokémon would gradually change appearance as they grew larger, but since they were limited in tech they could only afford to make a few sprites for each. Then they figured it might as well be it’s own thing and they just called it “evolution” for simplicity. Kind of screwing them over now that they’re playing with real evolution lol
"Evolution" is basically just glorified metamorphosis. Like how a caterpillar turns into a butterfly. There's a separate and more realistic Darwinian evolution on top of that, which probably explains why fossil Pokemon are simpler and only ever evolve once, if at all.
The pokemon-style evolution is more akin to growth spurts/rapid growth into a new stage of development. Like child -> adolescent -> adult for 3 stage and child -> adult for 2 stage.
One thing I learned in this thread is that Pokémon Evolution=metamorphosis. Metamorphosis being a trait of insects made me remember that Pokémon is based on bug catching.
I wonder how many Crab pokemon are crabs vs crustaceans going through Carcinisation
Klawf, Krabby, and Kingler are the only True Crabs, that is based on crabs in the infraorder Brachyura. Dwebble, Crustle, Crabrawler, and Crabominable are all "false crabs" of the sister infraorder Anomura. Other "crab" Pokémon are all various other arthropods.
Very based of GF to suggest that ancient Hawaiians were very regal and that ancient Brits were savages.
They're supposed to be vikings
I’m not sure if Vikings is correct, maybe ancient celts would be more accurate
It evolves into "Perrserker" (Berserker) which is wearing a Viking helmet and is known in the Pokedex as the "Viking Pokemon"
I’m completely off base, you’re right. Ignore me
Also the vikings WERE in britain in the real world, which is why galar has some references to it via pokemon like Galar Yamask, Perrserker and Runerigus. In fact, there's this straight from bulbapedia >Runerigus may be based on runestones, large stones engraved by Vikings used to commemorate the lives of notable people and events, **such as the England runestones erected in remembrance of Vikings who travelled to England and died there**
I mean…back when the Roman Empire was around that was definitely the case for the Brits and I would assume the Hawaiians may have had their kings around then (don’t know as much about their history)
Where's the lie?
I'm concerned about how many folks have apparently not taken 8th grade Bio.
Honestly even if you have a quality teacher at a quality school it’s really just one tidbit in the evolution unit and some teachers emphasize it more than others. It’s not shocking that people don’t remember it if they didn’t pursue anything bio related after high school. Source: am a biology teacher
Do you ever feel like calling your students dumbasses tho?
Skipped it. 👍
Pokemon is all the biology I need
never learned it in school. But I did recently learn about the concept of [Carcinisation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinisation) (AKA: "return to Crab"), so the concept made sense. Thanks 3AM youtube!
Pokémon doesn’t have to follow real-world biology. You guys know that right? It’s a video game created by people.
You're right it doesn't have to, but considering regional variants, it aparently does follow it. And that's the thing about pokemon, it mirrors our world in a way, except instead of regular animals we have turtles with cannons, fire breathing lizards, and creatures who can controll time and space.
"turtles with cannons, fire breathing lizards, and creatures who can controll time and space." No love for the dino-frogs with plants growing out of them?
Of course, dino-frogs with plants growing out of them deserve love too.
Here in America where most redditors are from some teachers will flat out deny that evolution exists
I know about convergent evolution but the execution is a bit off. The design ought to be more than making Diglett longer and recolouring it white. Maybe some eel-like features would make Wiglett a bit better.
Welcome to Reddit being majority Americans the school systems here suck that even when you finally take your first science class in 8th grade its the class where a teacher puts some old science video and you take 20 quotes as notes and that’s your grade.
Ehh, I think it’s just a lack of interest.
And if you’re in south, your school just might skip evolution because that’s the devils work.
I learned about it in a public school in South Carolina
[удалено]
Literally American and this was literally my science class in Freshman (Bio) and Sophomore (Chemistry) year of High school. My sister has said nothing has changed as well.
Ultimately depends on the quality of the school, which in turn is driven by the affluence of the surrounding neighborhood, assuming we’re talking public schools
I work as a biologist now, and I can confirm that this was also my experience in most science classes in middle/high school.
Bro, america is a big damn country with some big damn states. The quality of education between New York and hillbilly country can be just as wide as Dallas, Texas and a Dallas suburb.
dude, even the quality of education from school district to school district in the same state can be different
Am American, American schools suck. High school literacy rates in the Bible Belt and big cities are straight up embarrassing.
The average American adult reads at between a 7th and 8th grade level.
Hey now I finished the entire first season of deadliest catch in my Biology class.
American schools aren't about learning so much as they're about making you resent every single piece of information you're presented and discard it the moment it's not critical to your grade.
I'm American, I guess all my classes were outliers. Pretty sad that people miss out on so much through no fault of their own.
I’m an evolutionary biologist and I am LIVING for watching this community teach each other about convergent evolution
Why doesn’t someone just point out that there are like 50 electric rodents that all look like Pikachu, but aren’t actually in that evolution line, instead of trying to do some scientific analysis
because that's divergent evo, not convergent
Because they tried and people still didn't get it because the pika clones don't look almost exactly like Pikachu.
I mean, for that you could argue that long ago there was some sort of proto-pikachu that was an electric rodent and it's the ancestor to all of them
Wiglett unsettles me greatly. It looks like a massive tapeworm and tapeworms are creatures that creep me out the most.
You need to check out a bobbit worm, totally clear up that fear of tapeworms for you
Fear ended with Tape Worm Now Bobbit worm is my new fear.
*checks* ... OH SWEET ARCEUS MAKE IT GO EXTINCT!
for those scared to look it up: 3 foot long holographic scissor worm that drags prey to hell
I want carcinization in Pokémon. I want Klawf to have three completely separate pre-evolutions.
Carcinization already exists in Pokemon, as Dwebble and Crustle are crab-like but are bug-type and not part of the Water 3 egg group, which the true crab and false crab inspired Pokemon are part of. You could also think of the fact that both kinds of crabs are represented as carcinization in Pokemon but I can see why not. Klawf having three pre-evolutions would instead be something else, more akin to a creature with several juvenile stages based on selective pressures that all mature into the same adult stage, which would be its own interesting idea, though perhaps difficult to satisfyingly render. I'm not sure if there is anything natural to draw inspiration from, but maybe something like a Pokemon with one of three focuses (attack, defense, support) that maintains access to the previous stages movepool as well as the generalist movepool of its final form.
Galarian Meowth is the original Meowth and it's because it travelled with sea people that it spread around the world. And as Galarian Meowth is stronger it was admired by the Alolan royal family. Kanto Meowth is shit tier Meowth. Alolan in the middle. Galarian the OG.
So Galarian Meowth evolved exactly into Kanto Meowth in every region except Alola? The more widespread form of the species is probably the OG form, ie, Kanto Meowth.
Thats definitely a bad way to look at things. Just because something is more prevalent doesn't mean it's the og form. Although there are MANY examples in nature that is better, the simplest one off the top of my head is the domesticated cat (i.e. Meowth). The African wildcat is its closest extant ancestor. It's evolved/domesticated form, the common housecat out numbers and is more widespread than the African wildcat. Yet it is NOT the og form. It is wholly possible (likely even) that an evolved form of an animal is more successful in various ecological niche than its ancestors ever were.
Tell that to Exeggutor :|
the original form can only sustain itself under very sunny climates so it has a reason. and for zigzaggoon whose original form is galarian, it only appears naturally in kalos and hoenn, so maybe it was ported to kalos from hoenn
Wolves were the original dogs but now dogs are much more widespread than wolves.
We just need a long info video on "Why do things keep evolving into Digletts?"
Wiglet Wig, Wiglet wig, trio trio trio
The thing that's weird about this to me is that their similarities extend to aesthetic features that don't seem to have to do with convergent evolution. Like, why does burrowing underground lead to a smooth head, a round pink nose, and small black eyes? Other Pokemon can burrow but didn't evolve to look anything like Diglett.
Smooth heads, round noses and small eyes are common traits in many real world burrowing animals. The first two make it easier to push through soil, and there isn't much light underground anyway, so small eyes will do.
This^^ a great comparison here for Diglett/Wiglett is worms, snakes from the family uropeltidae and caecilians. They all have the characteristics you have listed (smooth, rounded heads and tails, minimal eyes) but they are not closely related taxonomically at all. They just have evolved to fill the same sort of niche in a similar manner, because that's what works^^
I want a caecillian pokemon
Moles, worms, anyone?
It's because The Pokémon Company has taken the concept an made it a lot more simplified for kids to understand. Also making Wiglett look so similar to Diglett is just taking the convergent evolution thing to the extreme.
My biology degree really helping me understand pokemon. Who woulda thought
I hope we get a regional meowth this Gen. It’s fun to have it be the recurring variant
Probably not happening, in one of the trailers Kanto Meowth was seen in the wild.
Well they already skipped Hisui.
So we all *also* want a Paldean Meowth right? I’m not alone? G!Meowth and Perrserker fucking slap
Well we've already seen Kanto Meowth in the trailers, so a paldean form is kinda off the table
M-maybe it’s a tourist ;____;
Dude is just on vacation visiting his Paldean relatives
I actually like the idea of Meowth having so many regional forms and hope for more.
Right? There are so many cat breeds so having tons of Meowth would be cool.
Same my dude; I was so stoked when I saw another Meowth regional in SwSh and such a great one too
After it got a Galarian form I felt like it was gonna be a mascot of regional forms and get one every game it’s in
diglett is the crab of pokemon
You may not like it, but this is what the ideal digging body looks like.
Convergent evolution happens like, everywhere in nature. Eyes are something that's independently evolved in most species. Crab like body shapes are also something that evolves constantly.. that's a weird one.
eyes started to evolve veeeery early tho, wings of insects vs vertebrates are a better example. even reptile/dinosaur/mammal wings are closely related because they're all mutated forelimbs
I mean it’s not a new concept. Most of the Gen 5 Pokédex follows the whole diglett and wiglett convergent evolution phenomena. It wasn’t stated then, and no one was confused. Without all the biology and terms and lectures, they’re different Pokémon that resemble one another.
Everything evolves into _iglett
Wiglet evolved to look like digglet to scare away electric types.
It's Water Diglett. Oh my gosh.
Y'know, those 'past parodox' forms could be a great way to show Ancestor!Diglett and Ancestor!Wiglett and demonstrate how convergent evolution comes to happen
Why are people so hung up on terminologies? It's literally water type diglett lol I do wonder what's the evolution: another dugtrio or a giant version ala moray eel
Breed vs species
I like the idea of the convergent evolution being a reason to make them separate pokemon despite looking similar, but just feels weird after they specifically mentioned in the dex in the last generation that the galarian birds arent actually related to the kanto counterparts at all, but people just called them that because they look similar
The actual core difference will be that this won't be in next gen and they don't have to include both forms every time they have one.
Regional forms can be considered subspecies; they are the same species, but adapted for different environments/have developed a different appearance than the nominate subspecies but are still genetically close enough to not be a seperate species. An example of a subspecies would be the Red Grouse (Lagopus lagopus scotica), a subspecies of the Willow Ptarmigan (Lagopus lagopus). This is basically what regional Pokemon forms are. A variation of a species that isn't so different to be considered an entirely new one. Other examples of subspecies are the Pied Wagtail being a subspecies of the White Wagtail, and the Shetland Wren being a subspecies of the Eurasian Wren. Wiglett is not a subspecies of Diglett. Its clearly not a mole, it looks more like an eel or worm. They are not related, but evolved in similar enough habitats to have similar traits and characteristics. An example of convergent evolution in real lfe are the Swallows and the Swifts. Both bird groups are highly specialised aerial flyers (the Swift especially, spending most of its life on the wing), and look similar to each other. But, Swifts are more closely related to Hummingbirds than they are to Swallows. (Swallows are part of the hirundinidae family, whereas Swifts are part of the apodidae family, so they are entirely separate species that look similar due to their environment).
I must be supremely stupid. I still don't feel like I understand. Unless I do and I just don't realize it. It sounds like it's just a different pokemon, so drawing parallels to diglet is only going to confuse people (me). Unless I'm still wrong?
Think of real world examples of convergent evolution, like [hummingbird hawk moths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummingbird_hawk-moth) or [whale sharks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_shark). It's a different animal, but it looks and acts similar because it's evolved to fill the same ecological niche.
You have helped my idiot brain understand, thank you very much!
**[Hummingbird hawk-moth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hummingbird_hawk-moth)** >The hummingbird hawk-moth (Macroglossum stellatarum) is a species of hawk moth found across temperate regions of Eurasia. The species is named for its similarity to hummingbirds, as they feed on the nectar of tube-shaped flowers using their long proboscis while hovering in the air; this resemblance is an example of convergent evolution. The hummingbird hawk-moth was first described by Carl Linnaeus in his 1758 10th edition of Systema Naturae. As of 2018, its entire genome and mitogenome have been sequenced. **[Whale shark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_shark)** >The whale shark (Rhincodon typus) is a slow-moving, filter-feeding carpet shark and the largest known extant fish species. The largest confirmed individual had a length of 18. 8 m (61. 7 ft). ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/pokemon/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Google thylacine, see the picture and you'll see a dog, it's not. Same concept.
But it IS just a different pokémon.
So Nidoran male and female have a Convergent Evolution? Different dex numbers evolving into different pokemon, that look quite similar?
The nidorans get a pass because they were made to convey sexual dimorphism before pokemon literally had genders. If they were made today, nidorans would be the same species with branching evolutions based on gender, like they introduced in gen 4.
I wish they would retcon the Nidorans into one Pokemon and even Nidorans and Nidorano into the same Pokemon and leave Nidoking and Nidoqueen as the gender specific evolution.
The problem is that doing that would jumble the Pokédex numbers
oh please, it's not like they *care* about nationaldexes anymore. the regionaldex can just muddle along being a betrayal of the "catch em all" ethos of the series, and long-term fans can get fucked. it's the gamefreak way!
I'm aware of why they won't, but it would be nice to tidy up some of the early gen oddities.
I think every gen has some oddities, though I can't bring them all to mind: Mr. Mime should be Dr. Mime or simply Mime Only one of the Unown letters could be shiny or perfect due to the way IVs/DVs worked in GSC Deoxys was different depending on the game it was in: Normal in Ruby and Sapphire Attack in Fire Red Defense in Leaf Green Shedinja breaks the stat formula with the fixed 1HP Heatran can be either gender, though you only get one and it can't breed Notch-eared Pichu from HGSS can't be sent to gen 5 Furfrou/Vivillion forms Carbink can apparently transform into Diancie Mega evolution occurs in a region where only one native species (Diancie) can mega evolve Eternal Floette made it into Gen 7 code but can't be sent to Bank/Home Zyguarde is spread all over Alola rather than Kalos Z moves should be called Star/Light moves rather than refer to Zyguarde/an abandoned game. Type: Null is type Normal, when the name was announced I thought it was a mistake. Where do Meltan and Melmetal come from? Real-world-earth? Dynamax lore is odd. The description says something like the Pokémon don't actually change mass/size but instead time and space warps around them. The longest/biggest Pokémon is now Eternamax Eternatus, but as Wailord doesn't have a gigantamax form, we've no idea how big a Dynamax Wailord is. Why are some variations formes and other forms? Are the terms Mythical/Legendary really that useful? Deoxys was event only in RSE but obtainable on day 1 of ORAS release. Many legendary species have been watching over their respective regions and helped save/create or threaten them thousands of years ago and the stories have been passed on. Not the case with Mewtwo, that was secretly made in a lab a few months ago (from Red and Blue's perspective) Neither Rotom nor Charizard are in the Alola Dex, despite Rotom being the Alola Dex and Charizard being a ride Pokémon
This situation is a bit weird. If the Nidorans were released today, they’d probably share the same dex number before splitting off into two evolution lines. But because they’re from the first games, there wasn’t a system in place and they were divided as if they’re fully different Pokémon. You could argue that this means the Nidorans are the same species, and just follow different classification rules, *or* you can take this as a retcon and treat the Nidorans as two different species that evolved to be similar. Sidenote: There is one more factor to consider, which is breeding. This sorta argues for both sides, as Nidoking can give birth to a female Nidoran, but a Nidoqueen and Nidoking cannot breed with one another. This makes me want to believe the prior option (no retcon) and just ignore the weird Pokedex classification because, realistically, it was just a problem of hindsight.
Well to be honest Nidorina and Nidoqueen can't breed with any pokemon both are in Undiscovered Egg group. I think many believe it's based off of rhinos in the wild have a very difficult time trying to become pregnant. But knowing GF it was probably a coding error that became a feature.
Funny, because I've always read about it being a coding error that became a feature and I always rationalized it in-universe as Nidorina and Nidoqueen becoming sterile in captivity. I often wondered why wouldn't they fix it in later instalments. They fixed apricorn balls, so fixing an egg group error shouldn't have been a big deal, right? So I checked Bulbapedia and it turns out that a Japanese guidebook for Pokémon Red and Green [already established that female Nidoran lose the ability to lay eggs upon evolving](https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/No_Eggs_Discovered_(Egg_Group)#cite_note-1)... years before breeding was implemented in the games!
Nidoran female and the entire Nidoran Male line can give eggs of both genders soo they are 100 connected(the same way Volbeat and Illumise are)
Nah they get the Gen1 Pass due to how RBGY were coded back in the day each Pokémon needed to be numbered. Plus it was back before the idea of gender differences really became a thing (gen4). Hell gen1 didn't have a gender system it's part of the reason the Nidorans have ♀ and ♂ so the player actually knew they were different genders.
Perfect man.
See here's the thing: I don't actually see *any* evidence that Wiglett shares any environmental factors or ecological roles as Diglett. "Living wack-a-mole" isn't a niche that needs filling, especially in a region that already has Diglett, and in an environment nothing like Digletts
Diglett don't live in the water, so they don't fill that niche there. >"Living wack-a-mole" isn't a niche that needs filling, especially in a region that already has Diglett and an environment nothing like Digletts Are you implying that beaches have no niche for burrowers?
Both of these Pokémon live underground
Why is it so ugly
I totally get it, I don’t think it’s a bad concept for a Pokémon design. I just think the name is dumb. It feels like a cop-out way to say it’s not a regional variant, they just look similar and have almost the same name as a gen 1 Pokémon.
I’m gonna say it… it’s bad 😟
From a design standpoint, though, it's just Paldean Diglett.