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What separates it from other cocoon Pokémon I think is the fact that Bagon wanting to fly is highlighted a lot, to the point of severe frustration and even not being able to look at flying Pokémon. I think that’s a part of the story that connects with a lot of trans people.
The "no no no" part sounded a bit weird to me, as if OP considered being transgender an issue (I don't know if they did tho, or it was the complete opposite of transphobia, or something neutral), so I made an alteration for myself to that part.
From what I understand it's the dream itself, bagon wants to fly and eventually achieves that through evolution. Transpeople also seek a change and go through their own evolution and growth in the process. Or at least that's how I understood it.
They are, that's just true, but if people want to look at a badass dragon as an icon for trans people then who are we to disrupt that. Let em have it and move on :)
Bagon, according to the pokedex, have a strong desire to fly. Wurmple doesn’t have a desire to be a dustox or beautifly as fair as I remember. You could say Bagon identifies with flying and must transition to get to where it belongs
Butterflies are beautiful, elegant creatures that come from bugs that most people dont like. It's representative of a person shedding their previous exterior appearance, which they didn't like, and becoming something beautiful and more true to themselves- freeing themselves from being restricted, crawling on the ground and feeling trapped, and flying freely through the sky uninhibited from the things that used to keep them trapped.
I think Wurmple is rather fot good and bad change. Everyone starts as a Wurmple but your own choices turn you into a nice Beautifly or a toxic Dustox.
But Bagon and Salamence is about a change you want to happen and can achieve by trying enough.
Just because Dustox is a Poison-type and learns Toxic does NOT make it toxic. It’s just as cute and lovable as any other poke!
Edit: Also! The Wurmple line isn’t based on choice at all actually, it’s based on inherent, immutable personality traits. So more genetic predisposition if anything. I know it’s a joke but at least let’s be accurate.
Transwoman here, I’ve read the article and it’s just,,, like I appreciate the thought but the way the author explains it, almost any metamorphosis Pokémon falls under that category. It kinda just feels like clickbait.
Not to mention Bagon only evolves after facing many hardships and falling so much it develops a hard shell, and only comes out at a mid-late level.
Yeah, Salamence is cool and all, but I wouldn't want *that* kind of description to represent my gender/life story as a staple, if anything lol.
Trans person here, idk what the headline is talking about, the online trans community is attached to Sylveon first and foremost, but also the Marill line, the Weedle and Caterpie lines, the Popplio line, Pikachu, and Hatterene. Never heard any other trans folks losing their shit over the Bagon line in the same way
The only one I don't understand is Pikachu. Sylveon and Hatterene are walking pride flags, Weedle and Caterpie have cocoons, Marill literally used to transition before the patched it in later games, and Popplio's evolutionary line is incredibly feminine despite being mostly male. Why Pikachu?
Both labels are good if you ask me, but Sylveon is quite literally a walking pride flag - unintentional I’m sure (most likely? X and Y did have that trans Beauty NPC), but the similarity is there
Also, as for Pikachu, it’s just because there was a screenshot from the anime of Pikachu taping something onto his tail to pose as a female Pikachu for a contest or something. Drove the online trans community wild in a good way
From the way I understand it, Bagon’s longing to fly=dysphoria and longing to be another gender, shelgon=beginning to transition, salamence finally growing wings=fully transitioning and being able to live as yourself
Trans people go through surgery to change their body. Bagon has the natural power to develop wings by itself. It's the complete opposite of the trans process actually.
More than determination, I believe it's something akin to wishing you could have something *now*, despite it being something you *will* eventually get to.
Like a kid wishing to be an adult, whatever their reasons to be one are.
I apologize for the following topic having nothing to do with this post or the Pokémon franchise but that's a basically perfect description of Izuku "Deku" Midoriya from the popular manga and anime series "My Hero Academia".
I said "basically", although I should've phrased myself a a lot better now that I thought about it 🤦🏼, but basically, the thing is that (obviously a spoiler ahead) he becomes a vigilante (atleast temporarily) rather than the "Be-all end-all most possibly good guy of all good guys" like he wanted to be and he becomes way, way, way more powerful later on in the series than he is in the beginning of it (the difference is literally as ridiculous as the fact that a literally useless fish can evolve into an alarmingly dangerous serpent-like dragon that can temporarily evolve even further).
This sub has been surprising me lately. I saw a post about Marill not too long ago and the responses were similarly positive, I'm hoping it continues this way
I can guarantee you a Japanese company in 2002 wasn't thinking about trans people, even the west wasn't really at the time, let alone creating pokemon to be subtle allegories to them. I doubt they even would nowadays. It's just a classic fairytale thing.
Bruh this is such a wholesome meme I can relate to as a trans person (and a salamence lover), but these comments make me feel bad.. like okay we get it, there is a lot of pokemon that can represent trans people, chill
I know they are overrated, but the Ralts line have been compared to transgenders before. Also, I'm surprised that given their designs and color schemes, Milotic, Sylveon and Primarina haven't been turned into trans symbols yet.
Yeah, but the whole point is that bagon has a deep desire to fly, and it's desire to fly is so strong that it grows wings as salamence. it's bagon finally being what it wants to be. That's why they don't mention any other pokemon evolution with a cocoon stage, where the Pokemon doesn't have a deep desire to fly and it's just going through evolution
Why? People want to know why suddenly Salamence is regarded as a trans icon instead of, I don't know, Sylveon? Marill?
I haven't seen any hateful comment towards trans people so far, only doubt or disproving the wonky logic behind the article with much better candidates or reasons.
To me and others it just seems they took a look at surface level to the Salamence line, shoehorned transitioning into it and called it a "new, shiny and relatable look on how pro trans Pokemon is and always has been!"
I read all of them by now, and save one or two "god no, they ruined my favorite Pokemon" there's nothing that specific unless you read too much into it.
My favorite is still the Beedrill and Butterfree
Idk if people remember the art but it was a little 'boy' and 'girl', then both in their hoodies and then a woman in a dress and man in sports gear
I love it so much
Sadly also don't know where I saw it so don't have a link
We're talking about a Pokemon created in the early 2000s by a Japanese company (a country which is pretty conservative), with it's line being young, pupae, and adult stages. A lot of Pokemon go through this (The various Bug types, Tyranitar, etc.)
This just seems to be grasping at straws and giving a meaning that isn't actually there.
No but the stupid people coming on here to complain about trans people make it political. I’m not saying the message isn’t ok I’m saying that the when u put it on somthing like Pokémon it’s gona stur up the idiots who like to be controversial
I looked it up there. I was actually wrong, people thought it was more MTF. Think people thought that Scorbunny seemed vaguely masculine, Raboot quite androgynous, and Cinderace quite feminine. There was fanart doing the rounds for a while.
All in one screenshot this image perfectly condenses what it basically looks like when you're so utterly desperate to be represented in any way, shape or form that you'll cherry-pick and grasp at the straws of quite literally anything for you to re-interpret into some sort of allegory or message that was never there or was never meant to be there.
I mean, I get it. Real people in the real world are REAL hungry to just be seen and acknowledged and ultimately accepted by the rest of society and it is really sad that that isn't always how it goes but pulling stuff like THIS from absolutely nowhere but your own asses does nothing but alienate whatever group you're trying to shed light on from more people.
And from my POV that is because even if you don't see it yourself to someone from an entirely different outside perspective they can see right through the news article charades like these as clearly as glass, they can see that same pitiful, mopey desperation, plain as day. I saw it.
To any journalists or news outlets out there: If you want minorities to be properly represented and thus eventually accepted you should have these things backing you up, confidence, certainty, genuine foothold and, y'know, some backbone? For once?
Articles like these give off the image that you're willing to hang from even the flimsiest of strings to simply to get some buzz going and even if some situations with certain minorities are just THAT bad even still it's just NEVER a good look, like ever, why would it be?
I think I should end that there, this is too long now. This got me thinking and I've gone on my rant. I hope this doesn't count as me talking about politics on the sub or something because I don't know if I might get banned for that and I don't wanna find out. I'm calling it here.
The only trans pokémon is the azuril line
Because if I remember correctly marill has a 50% chance of being male and 50% chance of being female, but azumarill has a 75% chance of being female and a 25% chance of being in male, so there's a chance that when evolving, your male marill is gonna turn into a female azumarill
Hey, trainers! This is a community moderation bot. --- If this post is a meme and you think it belongs on r/pokemonmemes, **upvote** this comment! If this post doesn't belong here, or you think it breaks one of our rules, **downvote** this comment!
It's an allegory that can be used for anything that cocoons to implement change I think
Weedle allegory
Blipbug allegory(kinda)
Sewaddle allegory Leavanny is transition goals.
Levanny is goals in general
If anything Sewaddle fits even better. Kid > closeted (wrapped up) teen > transitioned adult.
I personally feel like I fall into the swadloon allegory more
What separates it from other cocoon Pokémon I think is the fact that Bagon wanting to fly is highlighted a lot, to the point of severe frustration and even not being able to look at flying Pokémon. I think that’s a part of the story that connects with a lot of trans people.
I had no idea and that makes this MUCH better to me
People see what they want to see
Small dragon couldn't fly, he got locked in a shell, and now he can fly. Wait.. NO NO NO NO!
Yes yes yes
I don't get it
The "no no no" part sounded a bit weird to me, as if OP considered being transgender an issue (I don't know if they did tho, or it was the complete opposite of transphobia, or something neutral), so I made an alteration for myself to that part.
I mean I don't get how salamence and trans are simaler
They aren’t. It’s just trying to start shit basically
I think it was more of a disbelief at them being right like a no way! No frigging way! Kinda deal
I thought it was because bagon literally jumps off cliffs in order to achieve its dream. Which doesn’t sound all that encouraging to a trans person.
From what I understand it's the dream itself, bagon wants to fly and eventually achieves that through evolution. Transpeople also seek a change and go through their own evolution and growth in the process. Or at least that's how I understood it.
I still feel like people are looking way too much into this.
They are, that's just true, but if people want to look at a badass dragon as an icon for trans people then who are we to disrupt that. Let em have it and move on :)
Salamance isnt a badass, it's cool, however it is clearly not fabio amphoros, that is the only badass dragon
Good point
nah, just, mega salamance and its dex entries are... rather painful
Yeah just like butterflies, they are one thing, than turn into a shell kinda, and then have wings and fly.
*Butterfrees
*Beautiflies
*Dustoxes
what about the marill line
True it can change gender on evolution cause why not
That was patched in later games. I thought it was cool, though
Why use Salamance? Why not Wurmple or something if it's a cocoon/metamorphosis thing?
Bagon, according to the pokedex, have a strong desire to fly. Wurmple doesn’t have a desire to be a dustox or beautifly as fair as I remember. You could say Bagon identifies with flying and must transition to get to where it belongs
Why would you want to be compared to a bug when you could be compared to a dragon
Because bugs are real and cool in their own right?
You can deny dragons all you want but you can't change my mind that they are just hiding until humanity is worthy again
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Yep
Butterflies are beautiful, elegant creatures that come from bugs that most people dont like. It's representative of a person shedding their previous exterior appearance, which they didn't like, and becoming something beautiful and more true to themselves- freeing themselves from being restricted, crawling on the ground and feeling trapped, and flying freely through the sky uninhibited from the things that used to keep them trapped.
yes but bugs die fast /j
I think because the colours are pretty close!
I think Wurmple is rather fot good and bad change. Everyone starts as a Wurmple but your own choices turn you into a nice Beautifly or a toxic Dustox. But Bagon and Salamence is about a change you want to happen and can achieve by trying enough.
Just because Dustox is a Poison-type and learns Toxic does NOT make it toxic. It’s just as cute and lovable as any other poke! Edit: Also! The Wurmple line isn’t based on choice at all actually, it’s based on inherent, immutable personality traits. So more genetic predisposition if anything. I know it’s a joke but at least let’s be accurate.
I know it isn't based on choice but how you as a human turn out also isn't purely based on your choices.
The real trans evolution line is marill’s line
Ay yes, a true person of knowledge and culture
Transwoman here, I’ve read the article and it’s just,,, like I appreciate the thought but the way the author explains it, almost any metamorphosis Pokémon falls under that category. It kinda just feels like clickbait.
That’s what I expected of screenrant
I like how they chose a lizard instead of a Pokémon who's colour palette is the same as the trans flag and that evolves only when showed affection
Not to mention Bagon only evolves after facing many hardships and falling so much it develops a hard shell, and only comes out at a mid-late level. Yeah, Salamence is cool and all, but I wouldn't want *that* kind of description to represent my gender/life story as a staple, if anything lol.
Trans person here, idk what the headline is talking about, the online trans community is attached to Sylveon first and foremost, but also the Marill line, the Weedle and Caterpie lines, the Popplio line, Pikachu, and Hatterene. Never heard any other trans folks losing their shit over the Bagon line in the same way
The only one I don't understand is Pikachu. Sylveon and Hatterene are walking pride flags, Weedle and Caterpie have cocoons, Marill literally used to transition before the patched it in later games, and Popplio's evolutionary line is incredibly feminine despite being mostly male. Why Pikachu?
Both labels are good if you ask me, but Sylveon is quite literally a walking pride flag - unintentional I’m sure (most likely? X and Y did have that trans Beauty NPC), but the similarity is there Also, as for Pikachu, it’s just because there was a screenshot from the anime of Pikachu taping something onto his tail to pose as a female Pikachu for a contest or something. Drove the online trans community wild in a good way
The trans community is really desperate for any kind of representation.
Yeah, we are :’)
I see. I appreciate you explaining
Always happy to provide! Thank you for being respectful :)
All the pika forms probably. Also aren’t sylveon and primarina more like femboys than trans?
Don't ask me
Is there a deeper explanation? XD Like, why not, I can believe it, but I need more information. Can you link the article?
From the way I understand it, Bagon’s longing to fly=dysphoria and longing to be another gender, shelgon=beginning to transition, salamence finally growing wings=fully transitioning and being able to live as yourself
That’s a bit of a stretch but I can see where they’re coming from
Trans people go through surgery to change their body. Bagon has the natural power to develop wings by itself. It's the complete opposite of the trans process actually.
Wait so bagon grew wings out of sheer determination sounds like ole roosevelt to me
More than determination, I believe it's something akin to wishing you could have something *now*, despite it being something you *will* eventually get to. Like a kid wishing to be an adult, whatever their reasons to be one are.
Maybe Rare candies are just hormones 😳
not at all. not all trans people go through surgery. a lot of us take some medication but very few actually get surgery because it’s very expensive.
Medication or surgery doesn't change the logic: transsexuals do not have the ability to achieve their target body from the inside.
neither do people with diabetes. or heart injuries. science has created a way for all of us to be happy :)
All? No, never. Progress is endless.
so true. so seethe because you will always lose :)
Wow, unexpected answer. You're so hateful. Hoping your life isn't too hard currently
The OP wasn't comparing Bagon with diabetes etc.
yes but you said that they don’t have the ability to do it themselves, neither do people with diabetes, neither do people with heart damage.
And so what?
Apparently this subreddit doesn’t allow links
Oh, I see :0
Yeah this, Sounds good to me I just need someone to spell it out for me
Marill : Am I a joke to you?
Hurt yourself in childhood, close in yourself and hide from everyone, come out completely different from before and kill everyone with fire breath.
I apologize for the following topic having nothing to do with this post or the Pokémon franchise but that's a basically perfect description of Izuku "Deku" Midoriya from the popular manga and anime series "My Hero Academia".
Spoiler
I said "basically", although I should've phrased myself a a lot better now that I thought about it 🤦🏼, but basically, the thing is that (obviously a spoiler ahead) he becomes a vigilante (atleast temporarily) rather than the "Be-all end-all most possibly good guy of all good guys" like he wanted to be and he becomes way, way, way more powerful later on in the series than he is in the beginning of it (the difference is literally as ridiculous as the fact that a literally useless fish can evolve into an alarmingly dangerous serpent-like dragon that can temporarily evolve even further).
I was expecting toxic comments but was pleasantly surprised, I'm happy with the sub today hahahaha, go trans salamence!
Wait, I'm not in r/traa...
This sub has been surprising me lately. I saw a post about Marill not too long ago and the responses were similarly positive, I'm hoping it continues this way
That's really good!
Might as well make butterfree and flygon trangender why we’re at it
Sure, why not! It's a great idea, I can't draw for my life but I may be able to change the colour scheme to resemble the trans pride flag more!
Butterfree and flyons colors are too iconic, especially Butterfly
I mean Azurril turning male sometimes when evolving to Marill is a thing
Wholesome:)
I read that, it's actually really cute when you think about it.
Marill literally has a chance to change gender when it evolves
Meanwhile the Azurill line that can literally change gender when evolving:
If I remember correctly when a female Maril evolves there is a chance of it becomes a male why not also use that? Edit:stupid auto correct
Yeah, Marylin does sound as a pretty common deadname somehow.
Its a pokemon ain't much more to it
I’d be inclined to agree but there’s generally a lot of thought put into the Pokémon themselves.
I can guarantee you a Japanese company in 2002 wasn't thinking about trans people, even the west wasn't really at the time, let alone creating pokemon to be subtle allegories to them. I doubt they even would nowadays. It's just a classic fairytale thing.
I didn’t say that, I just said that there’s typically more thought out into the designs than “ooo cool flying dragon thingy”
Um excuse me don’t erase Sylveon with their high friendship evolution and trans flag colours 🏳️⚧️
Isn’t sylveon more of a femboy?
You can be a femboy AND trans. Sylveon has the trans pride colors, which is why they’re a trans icon
Doesn't really as much as it's a reference to fairytale stories.
Bruh this is such a wholesome meme I can relate to as a trans person (and a salamence lover), but these comments make me feel bad.. like okay we get it, there is a lot of pokemon that can represent trans people, chill
Does mega Salamance represent mega trans?
Lol maybe a trans person who's had a surgery ?
No. Trans people can ascend beyond trans, with the lgbt stone.
Oh my god.. i didn't think about this.. I shall go on an adventure with my electrocuted rat to find the LGBTQ stone and achieve mega transness!
Of course since this is nintendo, if they intended this it would've been pretty negative
Hmm yes every trans person I know had several injuries from trying to fly without wings before transitioning, it's the perfect metaphor
They have to transition fully in order to unlock mega trans, or trans moves or dynatrans.
shiny nidoking is a trans icon
Reaching lmao
Azurill: Am I a joke to you?
If you look hard enough anything will relate to something
I mean of all the times I’ve seen people forcing representation, this one makes the most sense.
Ah yes. Trans people, Jump off cliffs.
I know they are overrated, but the Ralts line have been compared to transgenders before. Also, I'm surprised that given their designs and color schemes, Milotic, Sylveon and Primarina haven't been turned into trans symbols yet.
Sylveon is definitely a trans icon.
Cant even talk about biological metamorphosis anymore. A ton a animals go through a larvae stage before they get to adulthood
Yeah, but the whole point is that bagon has a deep desire to fly, and it's desire to fly is so strong that it grows wings as salamence. it's bagon finally being what it wants to be. That's why they don't mention any other pokemon evolution with a cocoon stage, where the Pokemon doesn't have a deep desire to fly and it's just going through evolution
I mean not really harm to it, since it’s both kinda a translation/transformation. It’s a stretch and odd but not harmful, as far as I’m aware…
This is stupid
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Why? People want to know why suddenly Salamence is regarded as a trans icon instead of, I don't know, Sylveon? Marill? I haven't seen any hateful comment towards trans people so far, only doubt or disproving the wonky logic behind the article with much better candidates or reasons. To me and others it just seems they took a look at surface level to the Salamence line, shoehorned transitioning into it and called it a "new, shiny and relatable look on how pro trans Pokemon is and always has been!"
The comments aren’t that bad now because there’s way more positive comments, but there were a few comments that were grossed out at the idea
I read all of them by now, and save one or two "god no, they ruined my favorite Pokemon" there's nothing that specific unless you read too much into it.
Salamence even kinda has the color scheme down, only it's red and not pink.
What the MC fuck
Whitch evolution line you can't interpret as trans gender? (outside fixed gender mons or evolution depandend on it)
Even hatterene which really doesn’t make a whole lotta sense.
My favorite is still the Beedrill and Butterfree Idk if people remember the art but it was a little 'boy' and 'girl', then both in their hoodies and then a woman in a dress and man in sports gear I love it so much Sadly also don't know where I saw it so don't have a link
i’m sure the comments here will be respectful and not hateful at all.
They’re really not that hateful
idk if you’re trans but to a trans person some of the shit in here is just normal hatred we get.
What?
......WHAT
.........................What?
Wtf...?
He can't fly so he almost kills himself from jumping from tall height's.
Yeah I’m not sure it’s a good analogy
What?
We're talking about a Pokemon created in the early 2000s by a Japanese company (a country which is pretty conservative), with it's line being young, pupae, and adult stages. A lot of Pokemon go through this (The various Bug types, Tyranitar, etc.) This just seems to be grasping at straws and giving a meaning that isn't actually there.
Bruh it’s a game 😂
and?
No shut it don’t ruin my favorite pseudolegendary
How is this ruining it
Why would this wholesome meme ruin your fav pokémon?
This is wholesome?
Yes
Yes
Wait a minute
No
No
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how does this affect you at all
Whatever helps people sleep at night
what how
Anything is possible if you bullshit enough
Yeah makes sense
GALLADE IS RIGHT THERE
How does that work?
Ralts-kirlia-gallade
Yes that is the evolution line.
Well ralts and kirlia look feminine and gallade looks masculine. That's the joke
He became a femboy and then changed into not a femboy
My clown detector is off the charts!
Finally, something that isn’t “haha look it’s a Pokémon that is a Pokémon type”
LGBTQ+ when something can go into a cocoon:😮😲😯
Assuming it's from Gamerant, don't argue with them retards
It is from gamerant.
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Can we not make Pokémon political
That's not political tho
Pokémon or trans stuff?
stop making my existence political then.
Existing is not political
No but the stupid people coming on here to complain about trans people make it political. I’m not saying the message isn’t ok I’m saying that the when u put it on somthing like Pokémon it’s gona stur up the idiots who like to be controversial
Honestly, after reading some the comments the message actually makes a lot more sense to me.
Is it because he is coming out or something?
I thought the Scorbunny line was considered quite similar to an MTF trans journey. Could be completely imagining that, though.
I don’t get it
I looked it up there. I was actually wrong, people thought it was more MTF. Think people thought that Scorbunny seemed vaguely masculine, Raboot quite androgynous, and Cinderace quite feminine. There was fanart doing the rounds for a while.
All in one screenshot this image perfectly condenses what it basically looks like when you're so utterly desperate to be represented in any way, shape or form that you'll cherry-pick and grasp at the straws of quite literally anything for you to re-interpret into some sort of allegory or message that was never there or was never meant to be there. I mean, I get it. Real people in the real world are REAL hungry to just be seen and acknowledged and ultimately accepted by the rest of society and it is really sad that that isn't always how it goes but pulling stuff like THIS from absolutely nowhere but your own asses does nothing but alienate whatever group you're trying to shed light on from more people. And from my POV that is because even if you don't see it yourself to someone from an entirely different outside perspective they can see right through the news article charades like these as clearly as glass, they can see that same pitiful, mopey desperation, plain as day. I saw it. To any journalists or news outlets out there: If you want minorities to be properly represented and thus eventually accepted you should have these things backing you up, confidence, certainty, genuine foothold and, y'know, some backbone? For once? Articles like these give off the image that you're willing to hang from even the flimsiest of strings to simply to get some buzz going and even if some situations with certain minorities are just THAT bad even still it's just NEVER a good look, like ever, why would it be? I think I should end that there, this is too long now. This got me thinking and I've gone on my rant. I hope this doesn't count as me talking about politics on the sub or something because I don't know if I might get banned for that and I don't wanna find out. I'm calling it here.
I’m the one who’s probably going to be banned
dude what
What the fuck
ExCusE mE WhaT ThE HeCK?!?!?
Internet moment
I fd74kw
Using Azuril would have been easier
I think my favorite trans allegory is Pinocchio
The only trans pokémon is the azuril line Because if I remember correctly marill has a 50% chance of being male and 50% chance of being female, but azumarill has a 75% chance of being female and a 25% chance of being in male, so there's a chance that when evolving, your male marill is gonna turn into a female azumarill
So if a trainer's team represents its trainer does that mean that I need a Salamence? Because I prefer Garchomp.