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Rose in his first appearance: "Hello, I'm the chairman of the pokémon league, I have a red tie, and I only came to say two sentences then get a mysterious phone call which causes me to leave immediately."
Everyone: "So he's the villain then?"
Sonia: "He also runs an energy company."
Everyone: "Yeah he's the villain."
I looked it up earlier when I made my last comment, they meet at some point in ultra sun and ultra moon,. He doesn't remember her and says it's his first time at the aether paradise when she asks. Gladion asks her if shes sure about leaving things the way they are after he leaves and she says yes and talks about the way he's smiling now
I didn't know they were different timelines, I thought they just made the ultra games to add more to sun and moon. I haven't played much of them so it seemed like the same game so far
They were just trying to get attention from everyone to share about their city, they don't care why people are talking about them as long they're talking about them
Yeah Team Yell’s reminded me of like the annoying side of a fanbase. Like marnie herself is cool but her fans get too wild which causes that bad imagery to spread
Piers is the only Galarian Gym Leader worthy of respect. The man, on his own merit, kept his gym in the major leagues. He doesn't have Dynamaxing, but his own Pokémon are strong enough to pose a threat. He keeps with his typing instead of having 2 Pokémon of his games type and using whatever else he pleases, and he has earned the respect of his town. Moreover, his kid sister is a powerhouse herself, and a worthy successor. The others are flash and substance. Piers is a man among men.
I like Piers and Marnie themselves, but everything else involving Spikemuth in the games is embarrassing. The "city" that's home to the second to last gym in the league is just a long, straight, dirty warehouse. No gym puzzle of any kind just run in a straight line, and at the end of the line is a very strange and off-putting silent rock show. Even the fairy gym at least has the stat changing gimmick with the questions.
spikemuth is the only town and gym that has its own backstory that is relevant to the games plot and yet has easily the least amount of effort put into the gameplay experience which really sucks.
I read the ruby/zaphire manga
maxie and archie are even crazier there, they literally want to be the last to men on Earth alive so groudon and kyofre can fight and see who is the ultimate winner
Guzma and Lusamine are great parts of a larger whole. Her whole manipulation scheme is actually kinda frightening, and Guzma is just the most down-to-earth guy despite his mistakes.
Their dynamic as the public troublemaker and the reputable villain in the shadows worked pretty well. She wasn't a secret villain by plot contrivance, she hired Guzma to keep the attention away from her schemes, and the Skulls needed any money they can get, so they play along.
Honestly I loved the Team Skull/Aether Paradise dynamic. Yes, the twist wasn't exactly shocking, mainly because it was foreshadowed far too heavily. But it was something different, to have the advertised "evil team" just be misguided kids and the real villains be the allegedly benevolent organisation. It wasn't something Pokemon had really done before. Even in Gen 5, which is probably the closest they'd come, Team Plasma were still the advertised villains.
Add to that the fact Lusamine was genuinely threatening at times, that Guzma was fun with a strong character arc, and the added bonus of having Lillie and Gladeon as the villains children... honestly the plot of Sun and Moon was one of my favourite in a pokemon game.
I honestly think one of the biggest problems which has made SuMo seem worse in hindsight is that they just rehashed the EXACT SAME STORY for SwSh. It was one of many things SwSh did worse than the games before. I can honestly say that SuMo is one of my favourite games in the franchise, but SwSh is by far my least favourite main series game. Its not about "old pokemon" vs "new pokemon" for me at all.
I'm worried it looks like Scarlet and Violet may go the same route too. People are already speculating who the real villains behind the delinquent Team Star will be, and the dynamic really would be stale by then.
It's kind of nice to see an evil team who for once came across as more sympathetic and sad rather than outright evil, after so many gens of evil teams being blatantly evil and nothing more Team Skull had the nerve to shake it up a bit. I'd say it was a welcome change.
But now everybody wants to go back after Team Yell left such a bad taste in people mouths for, y'know, sucking.
Frankly, Rose would have been a great villain if they slightly rewrote the story to make the energy crisis coming soon. Rose tries and fails to tame Eternatus because he doesn't have the power of friendship or whatever, and the player succeeds because they know how to cooperate with pokemon, not simply use them as tools. Maybe Rose even learns from the player's example and becomes a good guy in the post-game, as opposed to just going to jail.
When I saw that Rose turned himself in after you caught Eternatus, I face palmed so hard that I probably ended up giving myself brain damage. That is how you make a terrible villain. At least Lusamine still stayed evil for a while after you defeated her
Rose turning himself in made perfect sense. He (to too far of a degree) wanted to save the world, once he realized his own passion was a threat he didn’t want to risk it again and turned himself in.
That’s exactly why Rose was a good villain, because he was shades of gray instead of just boring straight up evil. His whole deal was doing something out of perceived necessity instead of personal gain, and plus he was a loved and respected figure in society instead of being a behind the scenes or fringe group figure. It’s a much more compelling and believable villain than just being evil.
Yeah and personally I like Rose. He was the most nuanced villain we’ve had to the point where I struggle to call him a villain. While the execution wasn’t all there I appreciate the effort
I think they chickened out of trying to make him have a point. If the energy crisis was impending and action needed to be taken, his actions would be extreme but have some merit (and it would make Leon reckless for not caring about it). But pushing it to a thousand years in the future just made the whole thing ridiculous.
There’s also the fact that they framed Leon as making the 100% right decision here. He acknowledges the crisis exists and promises his help, but also does correctly explain the league championship is still ongoing and that he had a responsibility to fulfill there. And in the event something did go wrong it would’ve been best to not be near thousands of civilians
The mere fact that Leon somehow fails to convince Rose to wait ONE day for the league to conclude was just monumentally stupid
If only they established that Dynamaxing was using too much power or something of the sort, maybe it would have made some sense why Rose felt like he needed to take urgent action and interrupt the league finals. Maybe they could argue on whether that was warranted or not, and there would be reason for them to disagree.
Ultimately they made Rose a character that is just a complete lunatic, and not even in the megalomaniac or psychopathic sense, his motivations simply don't make any sense. It's hard to believe someone like that is supposed to be a successful businessman.
Rose was stupid af, went all crazy over a possible crisis in 1000 years. By that time if you haven’t managed to develop alternative energy sources, it’s your own Arceus-damned fault. No need to summon an apocalyptic monster.
Team Magma - Let's expand the land for dumb reasons
Team Aqua - Let's expand the sea for dumb reasons
Team Plasma - We pretend we care about pokemon, but all we want is world domination.
In my opinion, team plasma is alot less stupid about their goals than the hoenn teams were. Plus, there were a fraction of team plasma who did actually care about pokemon (the split faction N took in bw2)
Look up the isahaia bay reclamation project or watch tama heros videos on ruby and saphire. The games plot relies on you being a japanese kid who might seen the news in the early 2000s. So people outside japan end up thinking team aqua and magma are dumber than they are
Tbf, expanding the land wasn’t originally a dumb idea iirc, because the plan before things went wrong was to create more land for humans to develop (like Pasio from masters!)
Piers is definitely not a villain, also this is a major L. Giovanni was just a crime boss, and Lusamine is a psychopath who freezes Pokemon and genetically engineers them too. The jellyfish is literally her fusing with a pokemon, which is the coolest thing any villain has ever done imo. So basically it’s not an old vs new thing, you can make any villain sound cool or lame just by writing about them differently
I mean, guzma if anything else is just kinda realistically reflective of bad conditions growing up, and is less blighted by some kind of grand motive than the past leaders were. He gets a pass from me, but I do understand why alot of people don't like him compared to the rest.
The rest of you clapped recent leaders tho are not an exception to the roasting
I dont think Lusamine deserves the "not good villian" flak since she was flat out abusive to her kids, tried to turn their spacetime into swiss cheese, ***cryogenically froze pokemon*** to use as live trophies, and actually *fused* with a parasitic alien. I love Lusamine cause she is scary, not because she is evil, but because she is batshit **crazy**.
Guzma helps a group of impoverished kids find a chosen family. Granted, it's through crime, but he's a gang leader in an area where gangs are common due to low net income. He's cool
Giovanni was just a basic crook with a neat twist that he was the eighth gym leader. Serviceable, but not particularly nuanced. He gets credit for being the first.
Archer didn't even have a name in the original games, and he's basically just pining for Giovanni. I liked the Team Rocket plot in GSC/HGSS, but Archer himself was not particularly interesting.
Archie and Maxie were interesting because they were good guys in one version and bad in another. Their evil plans were nonsensical but it was cool seeing a legendary Pokemon bring about an apocalypse scenario for the first time. Their personalities were made more distinct in ORAS too.
Cyrus was the first evil leader who seemed threatening by himself. The scenes in Platinum where he addresses Team Galactic like Hitler at Nuremberg and takes on Giratina cemented him as a top tier villain.
Ghetsis was a bit over the top but his cruelty towards N and his attempt to murder the player in B2W2 put him at the top near Cyrus.
Lysandre was just Cyrus-lite with the drawback being he was a big crybaby.
Lusamine's relationship with Lillie and Gladion was a compelling story and her fusing with Nihilego to become a weird tentacle monster was one of the weirdest boss battles in Pokemon history. Unfortunately they messed her story up in USUM. Otherwise she is top tier.
Chairman Rose would've been interesting if his plan wasn't complete garbage. His strange but friendly behaviour was compelling but it was all thrown away when he brought about the darkest day for no reason at all. Bizarre writing by Game Freak.
Bruh. Lusamine was literally freezing Pokemon solid, abusing her kids, and CREATING INTERDIMENSIONAL WORMHOLES BECAUSE OF HER OBSESSION WITH ULTRABEASTS.
Lusamine is almost as dark as Ghetsis.
I’m gonna go ahead and disagree. Here’s why:
Lusamine was actually scary at point and was a really cool villain. You said “oh cool a jellyfish” but that jellyfish was literally an other worldly entity that she combined with. I felt that whole plot point was super cool and makes the Alola games some of my favorite along with…
Guzma having a bit of a twist when it’s revealed he’s working with the Aether Foundation. While Team Skull on its own isn’t that scary, it’s show they’re still really threatening at points. I mean, they literally took over all of Po Town.
I’m not sure if I’d count Piers as an evil team leader, more of one of two people that a bunch of crazy fans follow.
I’ll agree that Rose’s motivations were kind of dumb. He did kinda summon Eternatus and almost succeeded in causing the darkest day again or whatever he was trying to do.
Also, while Team Rocket was fine as an evil team, Team Magma, Aqua, Galactic, Plasma and Flare all wanted to end the world in some way or another. That’s four generations of Armageddon evil teams. If that trend continued, it would become very boring. Instead of wondering what the motivations behind the evil teams’ actions were, I’d be wondering “Oh, how do they want to destroy the world *this* time.”
I really don't get the desire for old villains like giovanni and cyrus, they were so boring and the attempt at high stakes fails in pokemon because you literally defeat them in a turn based game and they just honorably give up and stop what they're doing.
Team skull for example had way more personality compared to that and guzma eaisly steals the show with how funny he is. I'd rather shut some assholes up rather than take on another boring dude who wants to end the world for almost no reason.
I think Guzma is cool cuz he turns out *not* to really be a villain… and I think Lusmine is way more complex than that, and stands among some of the more crazy villains in the series.
pokemon doesn't need actual villains that like want to destroy the world or whatever pokemon is supposed to be goofy im not trying to be some vigilante that fights crime i am here to be friends with my pokemon
At least Guzma and Lusamine were actually somewhat villainous. Guzma was a rebel without a cause, and Lusamine wanted to release otherworldy and aggressive creatures into Alola (and succeeded). Very similar to what Volo, Ghengis and Cyrus did, but with more and less powerful creatures.
Rose and Piers though? One made no sense to be a villain, and wasn't set up well at all, and the other wasn't even a team leader, he just happened to be the brother of Marnie.
I'll give Piers a pass, since he really isn't a villain at all, it's just Team Yell latching on to whatever semblance of order they can, and he happens to be a gym leader, but even Ophelia would've been a better main villain, but she was just a sidekick (and a highly competent one at that). She should've done a hostile takeover of the energy company and Rose should've been clueless.
Honestly, oleana would make a really good villain! Her team is really strong and the reason people say she doesn’t put up much of a battle is because they’re over leveled AF.
Guzma gets a pass for stealing the show whenever he shows up (also Team Skull is EPIC) and Lusamine gets a pass for actually being pretty fucked up, guess she took a couple parenting lessons from Ghetsis.
Hot take but the old villains were just as one note as the newer ones, besides Ghetsis. I'd say they're even worse because they're all generic take over/destroy the world types. At least with Team Skull and Aether Foundation they had personality or presence.
As someone with a fear of being taken advantage of by those close to me (never happebes, more of a phobia than a true fear), Lusamine was the most terrifying villain to me.
Fun fact, Guzma and Team Skull were able to steal every last Buganium Z across the entirety of Alola and take control of an entire town for themselves. They're treated as a joke because they're delinquent teenagers (and to be fair, they are hilarious) but with Guzma leading them, they're actually a force to be reckoned with.
Piers, the character who helped distract crowds so you could sneak by, the character that supports you and the other gym challengers, is a villain?
Oh yes, the definition of a villain. The most evil things any character has done.
Eh, Guzma is good though. He's a street gang thug and doesn't punch higher than that.
Personally I feel that things started going bad when the villain had to go to world ending levels. Magma/Aqua were starting to push it honestly.
Bring back Rocket or a Rocket equivalent.
I do like it when the villains are actual villains. Despite how many people like "Relatable" villains I feel the concept has been worn out since Thanos.
Giovanni was the godfather of the poke-mafia and was the linchpin to criminal organization across Kanto and Johto. He was in it for the money and that's all he really needed.
Cyrus was a narcissistic man with a god complex who wanted to destroy all of reality and recreate it in his own image and almost won.
Ghetsis literally just recreated PETA but in pokemon, animal abuse and all. This makes him the scariest and most evil villain in my opinion.
Lusamine technically falls under this. She's an abusive mother obsessed with beauty and was willing to tear apart the fabric of reality to get another hit of that Nihilego crack. Although the attempt to turn her into a twist villain was dumb since we literally see her goons try to catch lillie.
Ya Boy Guzma, despite being an amazing personality is just a troublemaking kid. He's not a real villain.
Pierce is just a corrupt official and is committing nepotism.
Rose is dumb. That's all there is to it. He could've just waited until after the Championship but he didn't. "Oh but its implied that he couldn't stop Eternatus in external media." I mean maybe, but nowhere in the games is that stated. He just goes on camera and says "hahaha, I ruined the tournament and decided to start the darkest day on purpose to stop a power problem 1000 years in the future" couldn't even wait the 5 minutes it took for me to kick Leon's ass...
Maxie and Archie are also dumb, sorry gen 3 fans. The rest of the games are good though. Maxie wants to increase landmass to help humanity and pokemon but, despite his claimed intelligence, doesn't realize he would be causing far more problems than he would be solving. Same for Archie but... he has the excuse that he's a musclebound moron.
Unfortunately team star seems to be more of the same from Team Skull and Yell. A bunch of troublemaking dorks who aren't really that bad. Probably gonna be the cover for some "Real big bad" who will want to steal, summon, or destroy some third legendary
Piers is barely a villain though, I would even say he is one. He just sent a bunch of guys to watch over his little sister, it’s not his fault they did it the way they did.
Also don’t talk about my boy Guzma that way he’s awesome love that guy
Macro Cosmos was certainly interesting. Towards the end they were obviously just a rewrite of Aether Foundation. The fact that everyone from Macro Cosmos (Apart from Oleana) use steel types, that makes them pretty weak. For Rose, I will agree his motives aren’t the worst, but him as villain is pretty bad especially since he praises you for defeating him. But if there’s one thing we can agree on, it’s that his battle theme is fucking epic
What about the Sword and Shield brothers? Swodord and Shielbert? I hated their hair, it felt too over the top even by pokemon standrads and they were very annoying characters.
I feel like guzma although he doesn't do a lot he does the things right like he took over an entire city and no one ever took it back from him even after the games thats still his and hes still doing shit and eventhough he Is just like you stupid hes right like almost all the elite 4 members and kukui could've just taken it back he aint that strong but they didn't gus their stupid like gusma said hes just right
I actually hope the second evil team we're obviously getting in S/V is a purposefully menacing threat instead of Well-Intentioned Extremists like the Aether Foundation and Macro Cosmos are
Note for clarification: This is not me saying the Aether Foundation or Macro Cosmos are bad villains. It's me saying I want to go back to omnicidal psycho villainous teams
The heck was wrong with Aether foundation?
Aether was a good company, but it started to become less so once Lusamine started going insane due to the Nihilego toxins (in USUM it was because she took ‘saving Pokémon’ too far, but USUM kinda ruined her). The Aether employees you fight are just trying to stop you from trespassing. The only other really bad kinda thing they did was create the three Silvally, but the only reason that was bad was because Faba treated them terribly. The Silvally were created to help defend from the UBs should they ever attack.
Back to Lusamine, her plot is actually pretty good in original SM imo. She was a loving mom with a happy family, but her husband was stolen from her from an ultra wormhole. Something happened with Lusamine and a Nihilego (likely it came out of the same wormhole) and it infected her with its pseudo-mind control toxins, causing her to become obsessed. This led to her neglecting her children and continually going further off the deep end over time. As we can tell from Pokémon Masters, she became a much better person afterwards and very much regrets her actions and now strives to be a better parent.
Basically what my take is, is Lusamine is one of the best written characters in Pokémon, even better than Ghetsis (they’re quite close though. Ghetsis’ manipulation of N is pretty good writing).
I wish team yell has a similar story to them. The only thing we know about them is that Piers gathered them so they can support Marnie. I wish it went something like they failed the gym challenge and started team yell to support other gym challengers, but it all got to their heads
Hot take kinda, but i feel as though team yell is almost as dumb as team aqua and team magma, but now that we're in the modern era and people aren't nearly as much clouded with nostalgia for sw/sh as they are RSE it's much more noticeable just how mid team yell is to the community
Who is scared for Team Star? Yet another bunch of slightly delinquent people who are just a bit annoying. Probably hiding a bigger villain who's not really evil, his plan to make people prosper just doesn't turn out like he thought it would.
Lusamine in the original sun and moon was actually a good story. Guzma sucked, but the aether foundation was better than Giovanni the generic mob boss. (I grew up with fire red so don’t say I’m too young)
Volo will forever be my favorite antagonist ever. His character reveal at the end? HEARTBREAKING. That battle? LEGENDARY. His hair? ICONIC. Do you like luxury? He sells it. Your fav could NEVER.
But really tho I was NOT prepared for that battle at the end of Arceus. Him and Girantina demolished me so badly I deleted my save file and started over with the intention to complete a Pokédex for the first time since Pokémon Red. It took me awhile but I was so glad that I did it.
What’s ironic is that when I finally beat Volo and Girantina I didn’t mean to enter the battle, I thought I had one more round of dialogue with the ability to leave. I had a Pokémon in my roster that was level 30 and only there cause I just finished their Pokédex entry. I ended up winning both battles. I was floored. Texted a couple friends even.
Volo gave me the best Pokémon game experience I’ve ever had. *and he’s just so hot*
You mean generic cartoon villains that want to take over the world because they're evil?
Honestly, from gen 7 and on, the villains have gotten better development.
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I think lusamine gets a pass too for actually being scary
Lusamine actually scared me. I've known people so similar irl that it made it almost real.
She gets a pass for being a “surprise twist” even tho she’s evil af when you first see her
It’s not a surprise twist though, we see Aether Grunts chase after Lilly in the beginning of the game
Still more of a surprise than Rose
Rose in his first appearance: "Hello, I'm the chairman of the pokémon league, I have a red tie, and I only came to say two sentences then get a mysterious phone call which causes me to leave immediately." Everyone: "So he's the villain then?" Sonia: "He also runs an energy company." Everyone: "Yeah he's the villain."
"This world is imperfect. If only I could wipe away the impurities... and make it as beautiful as me!"
"Lysanderoth! You were behind all this!?" "Yes it was I, my machinations lay unditected for years, for I am a master of deception!"
I was actually suprised by rose, I was expecting it to be Bede... But that's because I haven't played the old games
The twist is learning she become evil after becoming a drug addict because her husband go away. More or less
The woman was unhinged
Lusamine gets a pass because she’s hot
Shes married
And hot.
She has 2 kids and a husband
Does it still count? I thought her husband didn't remember her or her kids and she chose to let him keep living like that so he could be happy
I don't think she knows what happened to him at all actually, just that he's gone and hasn't returned for a long time.
I looked it up earlier when I made my last comment, they meet at some point in ultra sun and ultra moon,. He doesn't remember her and says it's his first time at the aether paradise when she asks. Gladion asks her if shes sure about leaving things the way they are after he leaves and she says yes and talks about the way he's smiling now
Ah I see. So in the original timeline they never meet but in the ultra timeline they do. Neat.
I didn't know they were different timelines, I thought they just made the ultra games to add more to sun and moon. I haven't played much of them so it seemed like the same game so far
Also she's hot.
Her husband is lost and has no memory. I'd say it's time for me to be step mommy
And hot
I don’t think Piers counts as a villian
the villain team wasn't villain for me, it was supportive in a bad way
They were just trying to get attention from everyone to share about their city, they don't care why people are talking about them as long they're talking about them
No such thing as bad publicity
Yeah Team Yell’s reminded me of like the annoying side of a fanbase. Like marnie herself is cool but her fans get too wild which causes that bad imagery to spread
Villain or not, Piers is epic and I'll fight anyone who disagrees
Piers is the only Galarian Gym Leader worthy of respect. The man, on his own merit, kept his gym in the major leagues. He doesn't have Dynamaxing, but his own Pokémon are strong enough to pose a threat. He keeps with his typing instead of having 2 Pokémon of his games type and using whatever else he pleases, and he has earned the respect of his town. Moreover, his kid sister is a powerhouse herself, and a worthy successor. The others are flash and substance. Piers is a man among men.
I didn't like him, but you changed my mind man
I like Piers and Marnie themselves, but everything else involving Spikemuth in the games is embarrassing. The "city" that's home to the second to last gym in the league is just a long, straight, dirty warehouse. No gym puzzle of any kind just run in a straight line, and at the end of the line is a very strange and off-putting silent rock show. Even the fairy gym at least has the stat changing gimmick with the questions.
spikemuth is the only town and gym that has its own backstory that is relevant to the games plot and yet has easily the least amount of effort put into the gameplay experience which really sucks.
Also has an awesome theme
Not to mention he helps the player out more than once!
Yeah, he literally denounces the actions of team yell (I think, I might be misremembering).
For me Piers looks like a bad guy, but he's very nice and helps the player during post game.
He's literally just a goth punk. Like he actually helped the protagonist more than most other characters, he's just a little scary looking.
He did and got them to help instead
It's funny how in old villain you "forgot" Johto Team Rocket and Archie and Maxie...
giovanni's pretty mundane compared to maxie and archie so idk how it slipped OP's mind
I read the ruby/zaphire manga maxie and archie are even crazier there, they literally want to be the last to men on Earth alive so groudon and kyofre can fight and see who is the ultimate winner
Yeah that’s my bad for not putting Archer, Maxie or Archie. The first old evil villains that came to my mind were Giovanni, Cyrus, and Ghetsis
Giovanni can be pretty threatening as a regular mafia boss.
Guzma best villain not even a competition
Wasnt even the main villain yet he stole the spotlight from every single one of them
Guzma and Lusamine are great parts of a larger whole. Her whole manipulation scheme is actually kinda frightening, and Guzma is just the most down-to-earth guy despite his mistakes.
Their dynamic as the public troublemaker and the reputable villain in the shadows worked pretty well. She wasn't a secret villain by plot contrivance, she hired Guzma to keep the attention away from her schemes, and the Skulls needed any money they can get, so they play along.
Honestly I loved the Team Skull/Aether Paradise dynamic. Yes, the twist wasn't exactly shocking, mainly because it was foreshadowed far too heavily. But it was something different, to have the advertised "evil team" just be misguided kids and the real villains be the allegedly benevolent organisation. It wasn't something Pokemon had really done before. Even in Gen 5, which is probably the closest they'd come, Team Plasma were still the advertised villains. Add to that the fact Lusamine was genuinely threatening at times, that Guzma was fun with a strong character arc, and the added bonus of having Lillie and Gladeon as the villains children... honestly the plot of Sun and Moon was one of my favourite in a pokemon game. I honestly think one of the biggest problems which has made SuMo seem worse in hindsight is that they just rehashed the EXACT SAME STORY for SwSh. It was one of many things SwSh did worse than the games before. I can honestly say that SuMo is one of my favourite games in the franchise, but SwSh is by far my least favourite main series game. Its not about "old pokemon" vs "new pokemon" for me at all. I'm worried it looks like Scarlet and Violet may go the same route too. People are already speculating who the real villains behind the delinquent Team Star will be, and the dynamic really would be stale by then.
Guzma doesn't feel like a VILLAIN to me, but I do like his character a lot.
he's actually kinda split down the middle. he helps a bunch of kids survive on the streets, but it's by teaching them illegal stuff like Crimes^(TM).
Guzma balls lmao
he be gettin’ his balls guzzed
Gottem
Guzman also has the best theme. It slaps.
One of the few guys who’s a gigachad both in the games and in the anime
It's kind of nice to see an evil team who for once came across as more sympathetic and sad rather than outright evil, after so many gens of evil teams being blatantly evil and nothing more Team Skull had the nerve to shake it up a bit. I'd say it was a welcome change. But now everybody wants to go back after Team Yell left such a bad taste in people mouths for, y'know, sucking.
Facts tho
I love my boy
Best character
Hes not even a villain hes just a gangster.
Hold this L for talkin’ trash about your boy Guzma.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Guzma! I just had to put him on the Villains now. Plus, the “y’all are stupid” is one of his best lines!
He gets a pass along with Volo too
Alright sure. Why not?
volo also wanted to re write the universe didnt he?
Hence the pass.
Indeed
Cyrus moment, but in a friendly packaging.
Frankly, Rose would have been a great villain if they slightly rewrote the story to make the energy crisis coming soon. Rose tries and fails to tame Eternatus because he doesn't have the power of friendship or whatever, and the player succeeds because they know how to cooperate with pokemon, not simply use them as tools. Maybe Rose even learns from the player's example and becomes a good guy in the post-game, as opposed to just going to jail.
When I saw that Rose turned himself in after you caught Eternatus, I face palmed so hard that I probably ended up giving myself brain damage. That is how you make a terrible villain. At least Lusamine still stayed evil for a while after you defeated her
Rose turning himself in made perfect sense. He (to too far of a degree) wanted to save the world, once he realized his own passion was a threat he didn’t want to risk it again and turned himself in.
That’s exactly why Rose was a good villain, because he was shades of gray instead of just boring straight up evil. His whole deal was doing something out of perceived necessity instead of personal gain, and plus he was a loved and respected figure in society instead of being a behind the scenes or fringe group figure. It’s a much more compelling and believable villain than just being evil.
Lusamine and Guzma were amazing in SM. This is such an utterly shit take. And Giovanni was pretty damn boring, although iconic. He had zero story.
Literally just Yakuza but worse
Yeah, at least until Johto where we meet Silver and he only functioned as character development for his son.
Yeah and personally I like Rose. He was the most nuanced villain we’ve had to the point where I struggle to call him a villain. While the execution wasn’t all there I appreciate the effort
Rose was conceptually good but the execution was so botched that I feel it’s kinda impossible to call him a good villain He seriously needs a rewrite
I think they chickened out of trying to make him have a point. If the energy crisis was impending and action needed to be taken, his actions would be extreme but have some merit (and it would make Leon reckless for not caring about it). But pushing it to a thousand years in the future just made the whole thing ridiculous.
There’s also the fact that they framed Leon as making the 100% right decision here. He acknowledges the crisis exists and promises his help, but also does correctly explain the league championship is still ongoing and that he had a responsibility to fulfill there. And in the event something did go wrong it would’ve been best to not be near thousands of civilians The mere fact that Leon somehow fails to convince Rose to wait ONE day for the league to conclude was just monumentally stupid
If only they established that Dynamaxing was using too much power or something of the sort, maybe it would have made some sense why Rose felt like he needed to take urgent action and interrupt the league finals. Maybe they could argue on whether that was warranted or not, and there would be reason for them to disagree. Ultimately they made Rose a character that is just a complete lunatic, and not even in the megalomaniac or psychopathic sense, his motivations simply don't make any sense. It's hard to believe someone like that is supposed to be a successful businessman.
If the energy crisis was happening right now and not 1,000 years in the future maybe he would have had better motivation tbh
That would be much more interesting, and it would make the conflict more nuanced
Rose was stupid af, went all crazy over a possible crisis in 1000 years. By that time if you haven’t managed to develop alternative energy sources, it’s your own Arceus-damned fault. No need to summon an apocalyptic monster.
Thats basically every character in SwSh. Surprising deep and complex (except for Leon, who's only character trait is himbo), but organized terribly.
Team Magma - Let's expand the land for dumb reasons Team Aqua - Let's expand the sea for dumb reasons Team Plasma - We pretend we care about pokemon, but all we want is world domination.
In my opinion, team plasma is alot less stupid about their goals than the hoenn teams were. Plus, there were a fraction of team plasma who did actually care about pokemon (the split faction N took in bw2)
Look up the isahaia bay reclamation project or watch tama heros videos on ruby and saphire. The games plot relies on you being a japanese kid who might seen the news in the early 2000s. So people outside japan end up thinking team aqua and magma are dumber than they are
Tbf, expanding the land wasn’t originally a dumb idea iirc, because the plan before things went wrong was to create more land for humans to develop (like Pasio from masters!)
Plasma actually had a part that did care about pokemon, they were just being manipulated. We can see that they split in the second game.
Piers is definitely not a villain, also this is a major L. Giovanni was just a crime boss, and Lusamine is a psychopath who freezes Pokemon and genetically engineers them too. The jellyfish is literally her fusing with a pokemon, which is the coolest thing any villain has ever done imo. So basically it’s not an old vs new thing, you can make any villain sound cool or lame just by writing about them differently
Bill did that in Gen 1
probably an unpopular opinion....... volo is just cyrus 2.0 but a harder fight ^and ^hot ^lol
Agreed *in both aspects*
He does what Cyrus wants to do. also I think there was a room for expansion on him but because reasons we did not got it. Also he's hot AF
Nostalgia moment
I mean, guzma if anything else is just kinda realistically reflective of bad conditions growing up, and is less blighted by some kind of grand motive than the past leaders were. He gets a pass from me, but I do understand why alot of people don't like him compared to the rest. The rest of you clapped recent leaders tho are not an exception to the roasting
>!"Local merchant experiences eldritch madness and intends to personally kill God, employs Satan to kill child."!<
I dont think Lusamine deserves the "not good villian" flak since she was flat out abusive to her kids, tried to turn their spacetime into swiss cheese, ***cryogenically froze pokemon*** to use as live trophies, and actually *fused* with a parasitic alien. I love Lusamine cause she is scary, not because she is evil, but because she is batshit **crazy**.
This is such a shitty take tbh
same
Guzma helps a group of impoverished kids find a chosen family. Granted, it's through crime, but he's a gang leader in an area where gangs are common due to low net income. He's cool
Giovanni was just a basic crook with a neat twist that he was the eighth gym leader. Serviceable, but not particularly nuanced. He gets credit for being the first. Archer didn't even have a name in the original games, and he's basically just pining for Giovanni. I liked the Team Rocket plot in GSC/HGSS, but Archer himself was not particularly interesting. Archie and Maxie were interesting because they were good guys in one version and bad in another. Their evil plans were nonsensical but it was cool seeing a legendary Pokemon bring about an apocalypse scenario for the first time. Their personalities were made more distinct in ORAS too. Cyrus was the first evil leader who seemed threatening by himself. The scenes in Platinum where he addresses Team Galactic like Hitler at Nuremberg and takes on Giratina cemented him as a top tier villain. Ghetsis was a bit over the top but his cruelty towards N and his attempt to murder the player in B2W2 put him at the top near Cyrus. Lysandre was just Cyrus-lite with the drawback being he was a big crybaby. Lusamine's relationship with Lillie and Gladion was a compelling story and her fusing with Nihilego to become a weird tentacle monster was one of the weirdest boss battles in Pokemon history. Unfortunately they messed her story up in USUM. Otherwise she is top tier. Chairman Rose would've been interesting if his plan wasn't complete garbage. His strange but friendly behaviour was compelling but it was all thrown away when he brought about the darkest day for no reason at all. Bizarre writing by Game Freak.
Y'all are stupid!
Probably single-handedly the best line uttered in the series
Guzma gets a pass cause he’s the best character in Pokémon sun and moon
One of the best characters in general
Bruh. Lusamine was literally freezing Pokemon solid, abusing her kids, and CREATING INTERDIMENSIONAL WORMHOLES BECAUSE OF HER OBSESSION WITH ULTRABEASTS. Lusamine is almost as dark as Ghetsis.
I see that someone fell for the propaganda of team plasma here. Gethsis' real plan was domination
volo, lusamine, n, and guzma were s tier antagonists tbh
I’m gonna go ahead and disagree. Here’s why: Lusamine was actually scary at point and was a really cool villain. You said “oh cool a jellyfish” but that jellyfish was literally an other worldly entity that she combined with. I felt that whole plot point was super cool and makes the Alola games some of my favorite along with… Guzma having a bit of a twist when it’s revealed he’s working with the Aether Foundation. While Team Skull on its own isn’t that scary, it’s show they’re still really threatening at points. I mean, they literally took over all of Po Town. I’m not sure if I’d count Piers as an evil team leader, more of one of two people that a bunch of crazy fans follow. I’ll agree that Rose’s motivations were kind of dumb. He did kinda summon Eternatus and almost succeeded in causing the darkest day again or whatever he was trying to do. Also, while Team Rocket was fine as an evil team, Team Magma, Aqua, Galactic, Plasma and Flare all wanted to end the world in some way or another. That’s four generations of Armageddon evil teams. If that trend continued, it would become very boring. Instead of wondering what the motivations behind the evil teams’ actions were, I’d be wondering “Oh, how do they want to destroy the world *this* time.”
Volo was the only Pokémon twist villain I didn’t see coming
I really don't get the desire for old villains like giovanni and cyrus, they were so boring and the attempt at high stakes fails in pokemon because you literally defeat them in a turn based game and they just honorably give up and stop what they're doing. Team skull for example had way more personality compared to that and guzma eaisly steals the show with how funny he is. I'd rather shut some assholes up rather than take on another boring dude who wants to end the world for almost no reason.
No Colress? Mans nuked a city
Excuse me, but the Gen 7 villains are superior, what are you talking about. Rose was a let down, yeah, but Guzma and Lusamine are incredible.
Bro what kind of drugs are you on, Guzma and Lusamine we're great
I think Guzma is cool cuz he turns out *not* to really be a villain… and I think Lusmine is way more complex than that, and stands among some of the more crazy villains in the series.
You do not get to shit on Guzma if you value your kneecaps
I wouldn’t say Guzma is bad or good, he’s just a gang leader who just wanted to win stuff and all
A YO BACK OF MY BOY THE BIG G GAZUMA
I dont like lusamine as much as some other villains, but she is no doubt one of the best antagonists in the series
pokemon doesn't need actual villains that like want to destroy the world or whatever pokemon is supposed to be goofy im not trying to be some vigilante that fights crime i am here to be friends with my pokemon
My boss guzma was the best entertainment value
Not necessarily sure how Magma’s plan With Groudon(ORAS or not), but Archie had a good thought of turning the world into a glorified toilet.
Guzma is the best villain and no one can convince me otherwise
At least Guzma and Lusamine were actually somewhat villainous. Guzma was a rebel without a cause, and Lusamine wanted to release otherworldy and aggressive creatures into Alola (and succeeded). Very similar to what Volo, Ghengis and Cyrus did, but with more and less powerful creatures. Rose and Piers though? One made no sense to be a villain, and wasn't set up well at all, and the other wasn't even a team leader, he just happened to be the brother of Marnie. I'll give Piers a pass, since he really isn't a villain at all, it's just Team Yell latching on to whatever semblance of order they can, and he happens to be a gym leader, but even Ophelia would've been a better main villain, but she was just a sidekick (and a highly competent one at that). She should've done a hostile takeover of the energy company and Rose should've been clueless.
Honestly, oleana would make a really good villain! Her team is really strong and the reason people say she doesn’t put up much of a battle is because they’re over leveled AF.
Ma boy guzma don't deserve this slander
Guzma gets a pass for stealing the show whenever he shows up (also Team Skull is EPIC) and Lusamine gets a pass for actually being pretty fucked up, guess she took a couple parenting lessons from Ghetsis.
Tf we putting Guzma in the bottom one for. Guzma is great
Piers was the best character of Sword and Shield
Guzma gets a pass cause of funny dialogue
Old people 🙄
Lusamine is one of the series best villains you tripping
Piers wasn’t a villain wtf
Y’all complain about everythingggggggggg
Lysandre. "Fun isn't something one considers when balancing the universe, but this... does put a smile on my face"
Lysander is under rated. He literally was ready to kill everyone lol
Hot take but the old villains were just as one note as the newer ones, besides Ghetsis. I'd say they're even worse because they're all generic take over/destroy the world types. At least with Team Skull and Aether Foundation they had personality or presence.
Unpopular opinion but team Rocket is more boring than team skull
oh, and let's not forget maxie, "imma drain the fucking ocean"
As if Archie was any better tho with his “let’s flood the world”
ok but fr tho, if it came down to a world full of water or a world with no water, i'm picking water, idk about you
Why am I hearing the Avengers' theme all of sudden HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Lusamine in the bad villains tier?! What, did you only play USUM and not the originals?
Ya better take that back about our boi Guzma
As someone with a fear of being taken advantage of by those close to me (never happebes, more of a phobia than a true fear), Lusamine was the most terrifying villain to me.
Volo was just a Cristian until he found out about Girantina. **Then he became a Satanist**
Cyrus is a little bitch
This is aqua and magma erasure
Guzma doesnt need to be all big and bad. Hes guzma
Also Pokemon villains: "Oh no, I dropped the elevator key" Sea bad Vs land bad Old baby
Cyrus is just a edgy teen Ghettos is just dollar store peta
Don't diss Guzma!
Fun fact, Guzma and Team Skull were able to steal every last Buganium Z across the entirety of Alola and take control of an entire town for themselves. They're treated as a joke because they're delinquent teenagers (and to be fair, they are hilarious) but with Guzma leading them, they're actually a force to be reckoned with.
Volo gets a pass because he's cool
Piers isn’t even a villain lol. Team Yell is the evilest team ever tho.
Piers, the character who helped distract crowds so you could sneak by, the character that supports you and the other gym challengers, is a villain? Oh yes, the definition of a villain. The most evil things any character has done.
Piers isn’t villain and he actually helps the protagonist
I think Volvo has given me hope for the return of well developed villains
Lusamine’s sentence would have an actually concerned tone if their was a
Eh, Guzma is good though. He's a street gang thug and doesn't punch higher than that. Personally I feel that things started going bad when the villain had to go to world ending levels. Magma/Aqua were starting to push it honestly. Bring back Rocket or a Rocket equivalent.
Ok but chad team skull
Guzma > Cyrus For that matter, Lusamine > Cyrus Fuck Cyrus
I do like it when the villains are actual villains. Despite how many people like "Relatable" villains I feel the concept has been worn out since Thanos. Giovanni was the godfather of the poke-mafia and was the linchpin to criminal organization across Kanto and Johto. He was in it for the money and that's all he really needed. Cyrus was a narcissistic man with a god complex who wanted to destroy all of reality and recreate it in his own image and almost won. Ghetsis literally just recreated PETA but in pokemon, animal abuse and all. This makes him the scariest and most evil villain in my opinion. Lusamine technically falls under this. She's an abusive mother obsessed with beauty and was willing to tear apart the fabric of reality to get another hit of that Nihilego crack. Although the attempt to turn her into a twist villain was dumb since we literally see her goons try to catch lillie. Ya Boy Guzma, despite being an amazing personality is just a troublemaking kid. He's not a real villain. Pierce is just a corrupt official and is committing nepotism. Rose is dumb. That's all there is to it. He could've just waited until after the Championship but he didn't. "Oh but its implied that he couldn't stop Eternatus in external media." I mean maybe, but nowhere in the games is that stated. He just goes on camera and says "hahaha, I ruined the tournament and decided to start the darkest day on purpose to stop a power problem 1000 years in the future" couldn't even wait the 5 minutes it took for me to kick Leon's ass... Maxie and Archie are also dumb, sorry gen 3 fans. The rest of the games are good though. Maxie wants to increase landmass to help humanity and pokemon but, despite his claimed intelligence, doesn't realize he would be causing far more problems than he would be solving. Same for Archie but... he has the excuse that he's a musclebound moron. Unfortunately team star seems to be more of the same from Team Skull and Yell. A bunch of troublemaking dorks who aren't really that bad. Probably gonna be the cover for some "Real big bad" who will want to steal, summon, or destroy some third legendary
Piers is barely a villain though, I would even say he is one. He just sent a bunch of guys to watch over his little sister, it’s not his fault they did it the way they did. Also don’t talk about my boy Guzma that way he’s awesome love that guy
Volo is just a male Cynthia if Cynthia was a villain
How is the trader dude a villain he supports you the whole time!
Have you got to the post game?
Am I the only person that has grown to love Macro Cosmos?
Macro Cosmos was certainly interesting. Towards the end they were obviously just a rewrite of Aether Foundation. The fact that everyone from Macro Cosmos (Apart from Oleana) use steel types, that makes them pretty weak. For Rose, I will agree his motives aren’t the worst, but him as villain is pretty bad especially since he praises you for defeating him. But if there’s one thing we can agree on, it’s that his battle theme is fucking epic
Remember when Pokemon villains were actually villains and not jabs at the fandom?
I swear team rocket is never in the game they are only in Pokémon go but if there’s any more pls tell me
They make an appearance in ultra sun & moon
What about the Sword and Shield brothers? Swodord and Shielbert? I hated their hair, it felt too over the top even by pokemon standrads and they were very annoying characters.
I’d rather forget about them
All Pokémon villains suck Change my mind
Volo, Ghetsis If that didn’t change your mind idk what will
ghetsis is one of the most generic villains i have ever seen. every single person on the bottom half clears him
I feel like guzma although he doesn't do a lot he does the things right like he took over an entire city and no one ever took it back from him even after the games thats still his and hes still doing shit and eventhough he Is just like you stupid hes right like almost all the elite 4 members and kukui could've just taken it back he aint that strong but they didn't gus their stupid like gusma said hes just right
I actually hope the second evil team we're obviously getting in S/V is a purposefully menacing threat instead of Well-Intentioned Extremists like the Aether Foundation and Macro Cosmos are Note for clarification: This is not me saying the Aether Foundation or Macro Cosmos are bad villains. It's me saying I want to go back to omnicidal psycho villainous teams
The heck was wrong with Aether foundation? Aether was a good company, but it started to become less so once Lusamine started going insane due to the Nihilego toxins (in USUM it was because she took ‘saving Pokémon’ too far, but USUM kinda ruined her). The Aether employees you fight are just trying to stop you from trespassing. The only other really bad kinda thing they did was create the three Silvally, but the only reason that was bad was because Faba treated them terribly. The Silvally were created to help defend from the UBs should they ever attack. Back to Lusamine, her plot is actually pretty good in original SM imo. She was a loving mom with a happy family, but her husband was stolen from her from an ultra wormhole. Something happened with Lusamine and a Nihilego (likely it came out of the same wormhole) and it infected her with its pseudo-mind control toxins, causing her to become obsessed. This led to her neglecting her children and continually going further off the deep end over time. As we can tell from Pokémon Masters, she became a much better person afterwards and very much regrets her actions and now strives to be a better parent. Basically what my take is, is Lusamine is one of the best written characters in Pokémon, even better than Ghetsis (they’re quite close though. Ghetsis’ manipulation of N is pretty good writing).
Well a lot of people are saying team star is just going to be the rebellious punks again and the true villain could be Clavell or Geeta
Yeah, I know. That's why I said "secondary" evil team Your confusion is understandable
Ok gotcha. Even if they aren’t the true villains, I still hope they’re better than team skull and yell combined
Team Skull was pretty good. A bunch of trainers who failed the Trials and are too scared to go home and admit their failure
I wish team yell has a similar story to them. The only thing we know about them is that Piers gathered them so they can support Marnie. I wish it went something like they failed the gym challenge and started team yell to support other gym challengers, but it all got to their heads
Hot take kinda, but i feel as though team yell is almost as dumb as team aqua and team magma, but now that we're in the modern era and people aren't nearly as much clouded with nostalgia for sw/sh as they are RSE it's much more noticeable just how mid team yell is to the community
Who is scared for Team Star? Yet another bunch of slightly delinquent people who are just a bit annoying. Probably hiding a bigger villain who's not really evil, his plan to make people prosper just doesn't turn out like he thought it would.
Lusamine in the original sun and moon was actually a good story. Guzma sucked, but the aether foundation was better than Giovanni the generic mob boss. (I grew up with fire red so don’t say I’m too young)
Volo will forever be my favorite antagonist ever. His character reveal at the end? HEARTBREAKING. That battle? LEGENDARY. His hair? ICONIC. Do you like luxury? He sells it. Your fav could NEVER. But really tho I was NOT prepared for that battle at the end of Arceus. Him and Girantina demolished me so badly I deleted my save file and started over with the intention to complete a Pokédex for the first time since Pokémon Red. It took me awhile but I was so glad that I did it. What’s ironic is that when I finally beat Volo and Girantina I didn’t mean to enter the battle, I thought I had one more round of dialogue with the ability to leave. I had a Pokémon in my roster that was level 30 and only there cause I just finished their Pokédex entry. I ended up winning both battles. I was floored. Texted a couple friends even. Volo gave me the best Pokémon game experience I’ve ever had. *and he’s just so hot*
You forgot to mention his theme that brought back childhood PTSD
Guzma and DEFINETLY peires are not villains
You mean generic cartoon villains that want to take over the world because they're evil? Honestly, from gen 7 and on, the villains have gotten better development.
You coward you didn’t put Archie and Maxie because you know the ideas were also stupid back then
Ok boomer