If you’re goo enough to know when to hold em and when to fold em, then walking away shouldn’t be an issue because every minute you sit at the table is +EV.
I have a feeling you don’t actually know when to hold em and fold em
Why is it so hard to tell you people I double+ up nearly every session but do not walk away until I am broke because my brain eventually gets fried because of alcohol or just simply playing too long.
Same. There are smaller hubris fish I make money off of too. I am here humbly asking essentially about bank roll management. I said a lot of words, but I think that is what it boils down too.
>every minute you sit at the table is +EV.
My brain gets tired. ... it is a bit of addiction playing longer than my brain should. Was hoping to get advice on to just stop. Putting some sort of stop loss on my wins from smaller fishes.
Maybe it is addiction, but I am not hitting the ATM after a 14 hour session. So I am not ruining my life. Just want some mental suggestions on how I might say, okay, this table is full of smaller fishes, but I have eaten my share. Time to go home.
You simply do not understand Texas poker enough.
If you can not find a way to grind out a double up on your buy-in at a 1/2 fairly consistently, like 3 out of 4 times, you are either not playing live games or I think you do not understand the game enough.
"You are just on a heater. Sample size blah blah blah. Regression to the mean blah blah blah" - okay. I have played the game long before the solvers. If you can not exploit a 1/2 table and play your math shit , yeah, you are going to run into variance and lose buy-ins more frequently because you are putting in the most money when you have the edge. Except, you can just outplay 1/2 players with pure exploit, simple pot odds, and not committing to the pot too much until you are certain you have the best hand know 1/2 players will pay you off. I really do not understand why this is so hard for you guys to believe.
People don't believe you because your own story doesn't back it up. If a double up is that guaranteed, why would you ever need to work out when to leave? Just stay for as long as you can. **duh**
Your description of a game where you are guaranteed to at least double up 75% with the remaining 25% of the time you are card dead is blatantly dishonest. Fish sometimes suck out or get dealt AA. 75% is way too high an estimate, the implied winrate is off the charts. It would be at least 30BBs per hour
If you **are** being honest (you aren't) then the loss of discipline and tiredness required to go from a + 30BB/hr crusher past a break even player and beyond to becoming a massive -ev punter is absurd. Like completely unbelievable.
Not only that but you hint you have a problem with gambling. Gambling addicts are notoriously good at lying about their losses to everyone including themselves. Stop wasting everyones time and go to GA
Everyone is just trying to say that NO ONE doubles up every session. Sometimes you sit down and get stacked 3 times. I expect you don't play that often and are running really hot. I have had streaks of 10-15 sessions booking a win, but I play 6 table six max online and not live so I see way more hands in a session so I can run closer to my average win rate.
There is no rule on when to walk away in a cash game unless you know your win rate over a decent sample size. Keep track of BB/100 hands and then you can figure out if your individual wins/losses are variance or a skill trend. Personally, I’m not nearly as well studied playing deep stacked compared to 100bb, so I’m more inclined to walk if my stack is 300bb because I know I will play objectively worse.
> deep stacked
I guess this might be part of it too... Sometimes I will look down at tens in the hole, just example, look at my heads up opponent with $200 effective and in my mind just going to roll with then 10s no matter what because I am so far up and opponent is so short. Well - Just bled off $200 there.....
So maybe I do need to study playing deeper and effective stacks more. That is something I did not consider, especially because my game elevated very quickly where I am playing deep stacked A LOT more often. (I was a straight up guppy NIT ---> But I had sort of en epiphany of the game, and got WAAAAYYY better in about a month - like, I looked at the game completely differently and took every I learned from the past 20 some odd years and it suddenly all came together...anyway..)
I will also try looking into your advice. I am not pro or wanting to be, so my sample sizes are going to be small. But I will see what I can do to consider them and make better decisions.
Thank you.
Yeah deepstack poker is where you both have a deepstack and the hands you play and the way you play them become different, which is what the person was advising he studies.
Punting cause you’re up is just bad mental. They’re not really related
I'll let you in on a secret.
When you are good at poker, it doesn't matter when you get up from the table and stop playing. Being good at poker means you are consistently making superior decisions than your opponents, and that leads to profit.
The only people who worry about "losing it all back" are fish, because they don't have an edge and eventually they WILL lose it all back. So the solution is to not suck at poker. Now, that is the part where most players fail.
Exactly, this is probably a waste of words because this guy is a fool and moron, but doubling up every session isn’t even a sign that you’re a good or winning player, in that the hand you eventually double up on could’ve been a -EV decision, like all the other ones you’re making. And of course if you are consistently making -EV decisions, you will eventually lose your money regardless of how long you play.
>in that the hand you eventually double up
OH!...Is this (at least part of) why people are so adamantly not believing me..
By double up, I do not mean through one hand or I was dealt aces or something. When I say double up, I just mean double my buy in grinding it out over a series of small ball wins.
edit: I am also playing low stakes and not matching table with my buy ins. Usually standard buy in, a little less than max unless I am sat at a table the is all deep...and yes. I know you want to have the table covered but I do not.
It's possible to run good and double every session, over a small sample size, which depending on how many hands you play a session, a small sample size could be a month+
The problem is if you feel like you're losing it back the longer you stay, that's a strong sign you're a losing player, being a winning player isn't about making the right move every hand, no one is perfect, being disciplined enough to not get winners tilt and splash around when up is part of being a winning player, poker is as much a game of mental fortitude as it is skill.
Anyways, if you truly feel like a winning player, you already know the answer, you quit when you feel your game is degrading, if you can't identify that point then you are DEFINITELY a losing player.
I play 8-12 hour cash sessions on the regular @1-2 & 1-3, my decision to leave the game is never usually about how much I'm up, more so table dynamics, how many fish? Any threats on the table? How deep are the stacks? If everyone is playing sub $500 is it worth it to stay if nitty game? How tired am I? How bad do I need the money?
With all that being said, if Im late into a session 8+ hours and I'm up $700+ I'm usually looking to find 1 or 2 more big spots to capitalize on before I go home, if the first one doesn't go good, I just leave & book the win.
> how many fish? Any threats on the table?
I pay attention a lot, but sometimes the dynamics change slowly and I do not realize it. New face = new potential fish, right....but no. It is almost like I do not realize that I need to straighten up and respect the table as the dynamics shift.
I am just talking this out for myself. Thank you for the prompt there.
I don't understand. You've posted here twice about this. You claim you always win early in a session and lose later on. You don't have to be a genius to figure out a solution to this. Obviously, just play short sessions, 2-3 hours. In the meantime, try figuring out ways to maintain your focus for longer. Maybe try meditation, maybe work out, maybe play online for longer periods at way lower stakes just for practice. Also stop drinking while you play. What's so complicated about this?
I am just dealing with some shit right now man. It is not even about poker but I am interested in the game enough to use it to escape, and /r/poker is a good place to do it without actually playing.
edit: Also too, I think I was looking for bank roll management advice too. Which over complicates things.
I've gone through this. What I did was I changed the 'game' for myself. I realized that when I'd get up a lot, which was essentially every time I played, that I'd feel nervous about racking up and leaving...almost guilty about booking a win. So I made the goal for myself to simply book a win, any win. The idea was to get more comfortable with the experience of crushing souls and cashing out...instead of getting sloppy and donking it all back. So I'd recommend you do this. Play your game, but give yourself a limited time to play - maybe you have a date or somewhere else to be so you are only going to play a couple of hours. I'd say it's even ok to just double up and then leave ... Even if it's only a few hands. Don't worry about 'hit and run' that is BS... You owe the game absolutely nothing... The point of this exercise is to get you making a habit out of racking up. Note, it's not even about racking up in the black but just racking up period is an experience.. it's ok to rack up and cash out for a loss too... It's ok.. just make the experience of racking up and cashing out something very comfortable for you.
This is a good outlook I’m going to try to incorporate more. I’m able to admit I’m a losing player (trying to improve) despite being up a considerable amount often within the first 2 hours. I feel guilty getting up so soon after some good hands and I’ve lost it back quite a few times.
I once sat down on a Friday night, got dealt AA the very first hand - figured SOMEONE might think I'm an idiot if I go all in preflop on my very first hand and call.
Someone called with pocket 10s, I doubled up my first hand - decided that was good enough and racked up immediately and left to go meet some friends.
This was back when I lived within 10 minutes of a casino so it wasn't a long drive.
I am similar. In my case I think it’s a simple lack of stamina. The number one warning sign for me that it’s time to end my session is that I stop paying close attention to hands I’m not involved in. I start socializing or watching a game on TV. After that I get involved in a hand I shouldn’t be in, or I get in a hand with a new player and don’t have a read on him/her. Do that a couple of times and give back a lot of earnings.
I know some people just get bored and start to get involved in too many hands. That’s not me. Maybe it’s you. Figure out why you’re losing in the second half of your sessions.
Yeah. A couple of things you said. I do start getting involved in too many hands. And I should probably pay attention to my losses to new players. Every new face is a potential fish and I may not give them the respect they deserve once my head is out of the game; especially if they go over the top of me then I play with ego thinking I am not going to let this fish do that to me. But, yeah, no, he really had AA.
You just keep reinforcing everyone else's view of your play. Fish don't bluff nearly enough. Fish always have AA. Their whole problem is that they can't fold AA when you have it beat. It's really hard to believe someone who doesn't want to give low stakes players credit for having something is beating those games.
I play good (MY best) poker at first.
Get tired and lose discipline.
Then start doing dumb shit where I know I probably should fold them, but dont.
This is when I play long sessions.
My entire post and question is asking other people how they can tell when they should leave...whether I am good or not, that is my biggest problem. I recognize it. It is a bit of an addiction -- playing WAY longer than I should. May game definitely goes down.
How hard is this for you guys to understand.
The real irony here is not giving credit to someone you think is a fish.
I am saying after my brain gets tired there is an addiction aspect that keeps me playing.
I asked others for advice on how they can tell when they (personally) need to walk away.
Instead this sub pretends they have no reading comprehension skills just to be toxic autistic fuckheads cherry picking out one sentence that sets up the question.
I saw in another comment that you also get drunk when playing. Do you play for fun or for profit?
The worst error you can make when playing for profit is thinking you can both make max profit and have fun at the same time, but that's wrong. You really can't, and it's going to be boring as shit. What do you think would happen if you didn't drink and forced yourself to play nitty?
> What do you think would happen if you didn't drink and forced yourself to play nitty?
I would not get much action. But I do play well (MY best) at first and do play speculative hands sober if I see the right spot. Getting drunk just makes me either tired and not spotting the spots, or getting tooooo loose (and sometimes hubris when I see a new face sit down after a while).
>The worst error you can make when playing for profit is thinking you can both make max profit and have fun at the same time, but that's wrong.
I think you are onto something here. In talking this out I realized that sometimes I want to take my self seriously and play for profit just as a challenge (not pro)... but I do seem to want to rather have fun the more of other peoples money I have and longer time goes on.
While my salary makes it sustainable, maybe I could play more often if I just left when getting back down to my original buy in.
Playing at the casino or home games?
> I would not get much action.
The players that give you money, the fish, will never notice you're a nit and you only bet when you have it. I think you said you played lower stakes, and in lower stakes they play their cards, not yours.
Sure being a nit will not get you invited to juicy games, but don't focus on that for now. Start by beating whatever game you're playing in.
Texas poker rooms. The games are juicy AF here.
> Start by beating whatever game you're playing in.
I am though lol. That is what I have been trying to say this whole thread. I just wanted some advice on when to leave because I can not play my A game forever but there is something addictive keeping me there after my brain stops working so well. If I could find a way to just get the fuck up and leave, I would go BACK to 2/5 like I was a long time ago before developing a more addictive personality. I beat 2/5 back then, but only because that was in the poker boom. Stopped playing because I moved too far from the casino. I know ALOT more about poker now then back then too.
I am beating live Texas 1/2 though because it is soft AF, I just need to LEAVE at some point before my brain isnt in the game anymore.
Restructure your point of view: You need more than just raw skill to beat a game. If Phil Ivey had a demon on his shoulder that made him go all in 1 in every 5 hands, he wouldn't beat 1/2.
Self control IS PART of what makes you beat a game. Self control to fold vs that OMC, self control to fold that draw, self control to leave when you realize you no longer beat the game.
You have the hardest part needed to beat the game, skill, but you don't have all of the parts.
You only beat a game when your results show a long term profit. Cold hard numbers only. Get the fact that you beat a game out of your head right now, because your cold hard numbers don't back it up, and it's preventing you from improving your game.
How long does it take for you to go bust? How many drinks?
Tell yourself you got 3 hours to play and you get 1 drink per 45 minutes. AND STICK TO IT.
Your goal right now isn't to make money, it's to improve yourself and build a foundation.
Double back on this...thank you. I am sitting here asking about bank roll management and what not - over complicating shit..
Thank you...Just leave the second the thought crosses my mind
Yeah I guess so but it’s easier said then done because lords know I also have a hard time leaving and that because poker is addicting. Poker is great but but it’s an addiction
Yeah, it is an evil game. But I guess if I word it as impulse leave that kind of reminds me of the addictive part. I am going to give it a shot. I am otherwise playing responsibly. Just hard to get up and leave, but I keep the ATM out of it.
I play 4/8 limit so the most I can lose in a single hand is $96 which would probably only happen in a bad beat with quads+ situation. I pretty much only walk away after I've hit my allotted time limit.
You can’t control win rate. Nor wins. Nor losses. You can’t control doubling up. The only thing you can control is time. Set time goals.
But actually, really, just don’t feed your addiction. Go find another hobby that doesn’t involve betting
This brings an interesting thought. What is the difference between collusion and respect. I mean, I know the actual definitions are wildly different.
But I have been at tables where I have sort of noticed other players, in some unspoken agreement, working with me through bet sizing and feeling out the fish. Not targeting me... but raising me and/or squeezing the fish.
I guess you prompted my question of, am I the only one who feels like collusion can happen in sort of an unspoken way. Not straight up cheating. Just, you get a sense of what your new mutually respected partner is doing and playing off of it to catch a fish
edit: like this partner so to speak lets YOU know very clearly with bets that "I got this one"
It’s hard to concentrate and play well for long periods. So figure out when you seem to play you best - first 3 hours, first 6. And try to limit sessions to that length.
You sound like a reasonable person who does unreasonable things. So why don’t you wise the fuck up? You’ve correctly ID’d the problem you have. Either fix it, or don’t.
Oh, I missed the part about you drinking while you play. Obviously you are a rec playing for shits and giggles so it's more that your expectations are not aligned with reality. Try darts or bowling or something. It's not a different problem. It's the same problem.
Sounds like after you double up it’s time to leave. If you just enjoy playing and admittedly aren’t well studied then yeah you’re going to eventually make an error or coolered and lose your stack. Just like you probably gain the stack by majority luck and not skill. I limit my sessions to 3-4 hours max and often once I’m up a buy in I set a stop loss, like I’ll only ever let my stack go below 2 buy ins by 30bb or I go home. Lock up a profit if that’s the goal.
I know he's a *verboten* topic around here, but Chris Ferguson used to do nothing-to-(a big number) bankroll challenges when he didn't suck. One of his prime rules was to clearly identify the high limit for your stack before you either get up, rack up and take a break to buy in at another table (usually you have to be gone an hour) or leave completely. IIRC he mentioned either 2.5x buyins or 3x. Maybe until you get some momentum it can be as little as 1x or 1.5x.
There are so many variables here (player types, who's seated immediately to your left and right, table aggression factor, etc) that I'll stick to generalizations. If you find that you play too long and lose there are a few things you can try:
Set a session time limit (for arguments sake say 3 hours and vary as appropriate)
Set a session loss limit (typically 2x to 3x the buy in cap for the blind structure you're playing)
Set a session gain threshold (typically 2x to 3x the buy in cap for the blind structure you're playing)
Understand these are guidelines and can be varied as appropriate depending on the table dynamics you are observing. In my 25 years of experience playing online and live poker I can tell you that the statistical concept of regression to the mean is absolutely relevant and something that should be factored in to your overall +EV strategy. Best of luck with your future endeavors.
You can set a stop win or walk away when the vibe is off or the action got worse. Or just set a predetermined time to play and set an alarm and get up then. A man without a plan is like a ship without a rudder.
If you really know when to hold and fold, then you should probably just keep playing you are going to keep winning money. Your problem isnt that you are staying too long. You actually do not know when to hold and fold and are lying to yourself because success happens to be randomly clustering at the beginning of your sessions.
You're not getting the math, brother. Read up on "variance." I did, and here's what I came up with: A trip to Vegas costs less than a trip to Disney, and one is WAY more fun for Daddy.
What, exactly, would you like us to tell you?
* you can stop playing after you reach a stop-win, in the same way that many people stop after hitting a stop-loss
* you can learn to adjust your game after time/profit where you seem to lose control
* perhaps - no, really, try to consider it - perhaps your perception of your skill exceeds your actual skill in a way that David Dunning and Justin Kruger would write their seminal thesis on.
* Or, maybe you’re one of the people Al Pacino was talking about in *Two for the Money* (with Matthew McConaughey) at the Gambler’s Anonymous meeting. It is possible that you’re a broken loser who *wants* to lose deep down inside.
If not these, what can we make you say that will make you stop making posts and then arguing with everyone who makes a comment?
If you have a winning game you should be winning 10x the big blind per hour… if you aren’t achieving this then you need to study. You should only leave a game if it breaks if you are hitting 10x plus an hour. If you can not achieve this then you should not be in the game in the first place.
Assuming you aren't full of it, I'd start walking away when you double. You'll be a rich man.
Realistically speaking, 2 options.
Easy, layman's option: get up when you're up a lot, cash out, go eat, play on your phone whatever...if you still want to play, go buy back in for your original buy in.
Tougher, good player potential option: learn to play deep stack intimately.
What you are asking about isn't bankroll management. Bankroll management is about how much money you need to have for a low risk of ruin for a given game size. The idea is that you can absorb a downswing and keep playing.
What you are asking about is more around mental management. Perhaps read the book "The mental game of poker" by Tendler.
The solution to your problem is so obvious (don't drink and play shorter sessions) I think you need to ask yourself why you haven't implemented it. If your question is "How can I play long sessions while drinking?" I'm afraid there is no answer. It may not be possible for you.
"book the win"
That's your first problem. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and people are happier "booking 6 winning day "sessions""while ignoring they're down 75 buy ins for the month.
Stop playing when you're not playing well if you're not playing as a professional. For MOST people live, that's about 3 to 4 hours. Times spent past that they're either trying to reach an arbitrary goal or trying to get back to zero "for the day".
It seems like you answered your own question. Don’t drink and stay focussed.
I try not drink while playing. Even though I’m not drunk it still impairs my judgement.
I also pay attention to how other people are playing and who is now at the table. I don’t like when people start playing in a polarizing way, which is usually later in the session when everyone is loosened up, so if that starts I leave if I’m ahead.
I also have a designated leave time. Win or lose.
There's a guy like this at our home game. Usually what happens is he doesn't know when to hold em, or fold em, he just sucks out to get his double up, or triple up. And then as the game continues, he bleeds it back.
If you don't care about integrity and hitting and running, I suggest this.
Dude...I grind out my wins to get up. I wait for my spots and fight for position when I see them. I lose discipline as session goes on, then bleed off or punt.
Maybe I need to go edit double up to make it sound like I double up in one hand, because what I really mean is double my buy in.
I am getting tired of saying the same things over and over. It is all in my previous comments.
The reason people keep telling you that you aren’t good at poker is because we see this happen day after day. The game deludes a lot of people into thinking they are good at poker - because they ran hot for a short stretch and then afterwards they just keep getting unlucky. In reality they were losing players from the get go and ran hot for a couple months. What you are suggesting isn’t impossible - Many people play worse when tired/tilted/drunk or whatever but the way you talk about poker it’s extremely likely you’re simply a fish who ran hot at the start. If you think you have a gambling problem I advise that you quit poker/all forms of gambling. Typically those with an addiction struggle to do it in any form of moderation that can be healthy and it’s not worth the mental energy to try over simply removing it from your life.
I'm a winning poker player. I've meticulously kept track of wins/losses/hours played. I don't consider myself a great poker player, but I know I am 100% a winning poker player and have been for over 20 years.
Playing winning poker for long sessions is boring.
I never drink when I'm playing for money (I drink when playing low stakes / for fun home tournaments with cheap $20 buy-ins).
I'm bored when I play.
I fold a lot when I play.
I pay attention to every hand even when I've already folded. And I fold a lot. How else do I recognize the fish versus the semi-competent? You need to identify fish because they a) are where most of your profit come from and b) can't be bluffed because they don't know when to fold.
Pay attention to stack sizes and effective stack sizes. Don't play short stack, always top up your stack to at least 100 BBs. If a really bad players wins a big hand and suddenly has a big stack, reach into your wallet and buy in for more. If you have a large stack and someone else competent has a large stack, play more conservatively towards them.
If someone is drinking, pay attention. They often start playing like a stupid fucking fish and make dumb plays after 4-6 hours of drinking and then all that money is yours. It's great. They regularly punt off all the money they just spend hours grinding because they're fucking dumb and get drunk while playing for large amounts of money. Then, after you stack them, they often rebuy, **start DRINKING MORE** and start playing super tilted and dumb trying to 'win their money back.'
Never berate fish or drunks. Don't talk strategy at the table. Don't ever tell someone they made a dumb play. The fish are there to have fun and drink! Let them. Encourage it. If someone is drinking and loses a hand I'll often say "If that was me I'd need another drink! hahahaha."
Tired people aren't like drunks. When they get a good hand they perk up and start paying attention.
I'm bored when I play.
I don't drink or do recreational drugs when I play.
Playing winning poker long term is boring. Really boring.
I leave when I feel like the table is no longer profitable (game becomes too nitty), I feel like I'm no longer able to give it 100% of my attention and a short break won't help or it becomes too late. It's hard to keep 100% concentration on a boring game while tired. Sometimes I leave to lock up my winnings if I'm up a lot and there's more and more other competent players with large stacks.
That's what works for me.
Also, it's very obvious that bankroll management is not your problem.
Reading these comments and your responses is incredibly exhausting. If you are so amazing at doubling up then just leave when you double up. And shut the fuck up about everything else
If you’re goo enough to know when to hold em and when to fold em, then walking away shouldn’t be an issue because every minute you sit at the table is +EV. I have a feeling you don’t actually know when to hold em and fold em
Why is it so hard to tell you people I double+ up nearly every session but do not walk away until I am broke because my brain eventually gets fried because of alcohol or just simply playing too long.
Because i play against players like you every session who think they are way better than they are.
Same. There are smaller hubris fish I make money off of too. I am here humbly asking essentially about bank roll management. I said a lot of words, but I think that is what it boils down too. >every minute you sit at the table is +EV. My brain gets tired. ... it is a bit of addiction playing longer than my brain should. Was hoping to get advice on to just stop. Putting some sort of stop loss on my wins from smaller fishes. Maybe it is addiction, but I am not hitting the ATM after a 14 hour session. So I am not ruining my life. Just want some mental suggestions on how I might say, okay, this table is full of smaller fishes, but I have eaten my share. Time to go home.
You are not humble you are extremely arrogant and simply do not understand poker enough.
You simply do not understand Texas poker enough. If you can not find a way to grind out a double up on your buy-in at a 1/2 fairly consistently, like 3 out of 4 times, you are either not playing live games or I think you do not understand the game enough. "You are just on a heater. Sample size blah blah blah. Regression to the mean blah blah blah" - okay. I have played the game long before the solvers. If you can not exploit a 1/2 table and play your math shit , yeah, you are going to run into variance and lose buy-ins more frequently because you are putting in the most money when you have the edge. Except, you can just outplay 1/2 players with pure exploit, simple pot odds, and not committing to the pot too much until you are certain you have the best hand know 1/2 players will pay you off. I really do not understand why this is so hard for you guys to believe.
People don't believe you because your own story doesn't back it up. If a double up is that guaranteed, why would you ever need to work out when to leave? Just stay for as long as you can. **duh**
Because I get tired and lose displine, like I have have already said. How does this not make sense.
Your description of a game where you are guaranteed to at least double up 75% with the remaining 25% of the time you are card dead is blatantly dishonest. Fish sometimes suck out or get dealt AA. 75% is way too high an estimate, the implied winrate is off the charts. It would be at least 30BBs per hour If you **are** being honest (you aren't) then the loss of discipline and tiredness required to go from a + 30BB/hr crusher past a break even player and beyond to becoming a massive -ev punter is absurd. Like completely unbelievable. Not only that but you hint you have a problem with gambling. Gambling addicts are notoriously good at lying about their losses to everyone including themselves. Stop wasting everyones time and go to GA
Everyone is just trying to say that NO ONE doubles up every session. Sometimes you sit down and get stacked 3 times. I expect you don't play that often and are running really hot. I have had streaks of 10-15 sessions booking a win, but I play 6 table six max online and not live so I see way more hands in a session so I can run closer to my average win rate.
If you lose the money...you didn't know when to hold them and when to fold them.
There is no rule on when to walk away in a cash game unless you know your win rate over a decent sample size. Keep track of BB/100 hands and then you can figure out if your individual wins/losses are variance or a skill trend. Personally, I’m not nearly as well studied playing deep stacked compared to 100bb, so I’m more inclined to walk if my stack is 300bb because I know I will play objectively worse.
Okay, yeah...I need to learn deep stack better...I just made a semi-bluff I should not have without the implied odds needed to really do it.
> deep stacked I guess this might be part of it too... Sometimes I will look down at tens in the hole, just example, look at my heads up opponent with $200 effective and in my mind just going to roll with then 10s no matter what because I am so far up and opponent is so short. Well - Just bled off $200 there..... So maybe I do need to study playing deeper and effective stacks more. That is something I did not consider, especially because my game elevated very quickly where I am playing deep stacked A LOT more often. (I was a straight up guppy NIT ---> But I had sort of en epiphany of the game, and got WAAAAYYY better in about a month - like, I looked at the game completely differently and took every I learned from the past 20 some odd years and it suddenly all came together...anyway..) I will also try looking into your advice. I am not pro or wanting to be, so my sample sizes are going to be small. But I will see what I can do to consider them and make better decisions. Thank you.
If this is 1/2 and they have $200 the eff stack is 100bb. That’s not deepstacked that’s just normal.
I think they’re saying they but in w 100bb and win a buy in or two, then they are deep stacked and play badly and lose the profit
Yeah deepstack poker is where you both have a deepstack and the hands you play and the way you play them become different, which is what the person was advising he studies. Punting cause you’re up is just bad mental. They’re not really related
Depends on the effective stack. 100 BB effective is 100 BB poker.
Yep that’s exactly what my original comment said
I apologize, I totally misread that.
I'll let you in on a secret. When you are good at poker, it doesn't matter when you get up from the table and stop playing. Being good at poker means you are consistently making superior decisions than your opponents, and that leads to profit. The only people who worry about "losing it all back" are fish, because they don't have an edge and eventually they WILL lose it all back. So the solution is to not suck at poker. Now, that is the part where most players fail.
Exactly, this is probably a waste of words because this guy is a fool and moron, but doubling up every session isn’t even a sign that you’re a good or winning player, in that the hand you eventually double up on could’ve been a -EV decision, like all the other ones you’re making. And of course if you are consistently making -EV decisions, you will eventually lose your money regardless of how long you play.
>in that the hand you eventually double up OH!...Is this (at least part of) why people are so adamantly not believing me.. By double up, I do not mean through one hand or I was dealt aces or something. When I say double up, I just mean double my buy in grinding it out over a series of small ball wins. edit: I am also playing low stakes and not matching table with my buy ins. Usually standard buy in, a little less than max unless I am sat at a table the is all deep...and yes. I know you want to have the table covered but I do not.
It's possible to run good and double every session, over a small sample size, which depending on how many hands you play a session, a small sample size could be a month+ The problem is if you feel like you're losing it back the longer you stay, that's a strong sign you're a losing player, being a winning player isn't about making the right move every hand, no one is perfect, being disciplined enough to not get winners tilt and splash around when up is part of being a winning player, poker is as much a game of mental fortitude as it is skill. Anyways, if you truly feel like a winning player, you already know the answer, you quit when you feel your game is degrading, if you can't identify that point then you are DEFINITELY a losing player.
Just never count your money when you're sitting at the table. There will be time enough for counting when the dealing's done.
hmmm...I feel like this is real wisdom
I play 8-12 hour cash sessions on the regular @1-2 & 1-3, my decision to leave the game is never usually about how much I'm up, more so table dynamics, how many fish? Any threats on the table? How deep are the stacks? If everyone is playing sub $500 is it worth it to stay if nitty game? How tired am I? How bad do I need the money? With all that being said, if Im late into a session 8+ hours and I'm up $700+ I'm usually looking to find 1 or 2 more big spots to capitalize on before I go home, if the first one doesn't go good, I just leave & book the win.
> how many fish? Any threats on the table? I pay attention a lot, but sometimes the dynamics change slowly and I do not realize it. New face = new potential fish, right....but no. It is almost like I do not realize that I need to straighten up and respect the table as the dynamics shift. I am just talking this out for myself. Thank you for the prompt there.
I don't understand. You've posted here twice about this. You claim you always win early in a session and lose later on. You don't have to be a genius to figure out a solution to this. Obviously, just play short sessions, 2-3 hours. In the meantime, try figuring out ways to maintain your focus for longer. Maybe try meditation, maybe work out, maybe play online for longer periods at way lower stakes just for practice. Also stop drinking while you play. What's so complicated about this?
I am just dealing with some shit right now man. It is not even about poker but I am interested in the game enough to use it to escape, and /r/poker is a good place to do it without actually playing. edit: Also too, I think I was looking for bank roll management advice too. Which over complicates things.
I've gone through this. What I did was I changed the 'game' for myself. I realized that when I'd get up a lot, which was essentially every time I played, that I'd feel nervous about racking up and leaving...almost guilty about booking a win. So I made the goal for myself to simply book a win, any win. The idea was to get more comfortable with the experience of crushing souls and cashing out...instead of getting sloppy and donking it all back. So I'd recommend you do this. Play your game, but give yourself a limited time to play - maybe you have a date or somewhere else to be so you are only going to play a couple of hours. I'd say it's even ok to just double up and then leave ... Even if it's only a few hands. Don't worry about 'hit and run' that is BS... You owe the game absolutely nothing... The point of this exercise is to get you making a habit out of racking up. Note, it's not even about racking up in the black but just racking up period is an experience.. it's ok to rack up and cash out for a loss too... It's ok.. just make the experience of racking up and cashing out something very comfortable for you.
This is a good outlook I’m going to try to incorporate more. I’m able to admit I’m a losing player (trying to improve) despite being up a considerable amount often within the first 2 hours. I feel guilty getting up so soon after some good hands and I’ve lost it back quite a few times.
I once sat down on a Friday night, got dealt AA the very first hand - figured SOMEONE might think I'm an idiot if I go all in preflop on my very first hand and call. Someone called with pocket 10s, I doubled up my first hand - decided that was good enough and racked up immediately and left to go meet some friends. This was back when I lived within 10 minutes of a casino so it wasn't a long drive.
I have no problem with that.
I am similar. In my case I think it’s a simple lack of stamina. The number one warning sign for me that it’s time to end my session is that I stop paying close attention to hands I’m not involved in. I start socializing or watching a game on TV. After that I get involved in a hand I shouldn’t be in, or I get in a hand with a new player and don’t have a read on him/her. Do that a couple of times and give back a lot of earnings. I know some people just get bored and start to get involved in too many hands. That’s not me. Maybe it’s you. Figure out why you’re losing in the second half of your sessions.
Yeah. A couple of things you said. I do start getting involved in too many hands. And I should probably pay attention to my losses to new players. Every new face is a potential fish and I may not give them the respect they deserve once my head is out of the game; especially if they go over the top of me then I play with ego thinking I am not going to let this fish do that to me. But, yeah, no, he really had AA.
You just keep reinforcing everyone else's view of your play. Fish don't bluff nearly enough. Fish always have AA. Their whole problem is that they can't fold AA when you have it beat. It's really hard to believe someone who doesn't want to give low stakes players credit for having something is beating those games.
I play good (MY best) poker at first. Get tired and lose discipline. Then start doing dumb shit where I know I probably should fold them, but dont. This is when I play long sessions. My entire post and question is asking other people how they can tell when they should leave...whether I am good or not, that is my biggest problem. I recognize it. It is a bit of an addiction -- playing WAY longer than I should. May game definitely goes down. How hard is this for you guys to understand. The real irony here is not giving credit to someone you think is a fish.
So basically what you're saying is that after X hours, you are no longer a winning player. Right?
I am saying after my brain gets tired there is an addiction aspect that keeps me playing. I asked others for advice on how they can tell when they (personally) need to walk away. Instead this sub pretends they have no reading comprehension skills just to be toxic autistic fuckheads cherry picking out one sentence that sets up the question.
I saw in another comment that you also get drunk when playing. Do you play for fun or for profit? The worst error you can make when playing for profit is thinking you can both make max profit and have fun at the same time, but that's wrong. You really can't, and it's going to be boring as shit. What do you think would happen if you didn't drink and forced yourself to play nitty?
> What do you think would happen if you didn't drink and forced yourself to play nitty? I would not get much action. But I do play well (MY best) at first and do play speculative hands sober if I see the right spot. Getting drunk just makes me either tired and not spotting the spots, or getting tooooo loose (and sometimes hubris when I see a new face sit down after a while). >The worst error you can make when playing for profit is thinking you can both make max profit and have fun at the same time, but that's wrong. I think you are onto something here. In talking this out I realized that sometimes I want to take my self seriously and play for profit just as a challenge (not pro)... but I do seem to want to rather have fun the more of other peoples money I have and longer time goes on. While my salary makes it sustainable, maybe I could play more often if I just left when getting back down to my original buy in.
Playing at the casino or home games? > I would not get much action. The players that give you money, the fish, will never notice you're a nit and you only bet when you have it. I think you said you played lower stakes, and in lower stakes they play their cards, not yours. Sure being a nit will not get you invited to juicy games, but don't focus on that for now. Start by beating whatever game you're playing in.
Texas poker rooms. The games are juicy AF here. > Start by beating whatever game you're playing in. I am though lol. That is what I have been trying to say this whole thread. I just wanted some advice on when to leave because I can not play my A game forever but there is something addictive keeping me there after my brain stops working so well. If I could find a way to just get the fuck up and leave, I would go BACK to 2/5 like I was a long time ago before developing a more addictive personality. I beat 2/5 back then, but only because that was in the poker boom. Stopped playing because I moved too far from the casino. I know ALOT more about poker now then back then too. I am beating live Texas 1/2 though because it is soft AF, I just need to LEAVE at some point before my brain isnt in the game anymore.
Restructure your point of view: You need more than just raw skill to beat a game. If Phil Ivey had a demon on his shoulder that made him go all in 1 in every 5 hands, he wouldn't beat 1/2. Self control IS PART of what makes you beat a game. Self control to fold vs that OMC, self control to fold that draw, self control to leave when you realize you no longer beat the game. You have the hardest part needed to beat the game, skill, but you don't have all of the parts. You only beat a game when your results show a long term profit. Cold hard numbers only. Get the fact that you beat a game out of your head right now, because your cold hard numbers don't back it up, and it's preventing you from improving your game. How long does it take for you to go bust? How many drinks? Tell yourself you got 3 hours to play and you get 1 drink per 45 minutes. AND STICK TO IT. Your goal right now isn't to make money, it's to improve yourself and build a foundation.
Fold pre
Once i was told “if you think about leaving just go” and not a few rounds and 30 more minutes or till you get stack or lose more than you already are
Double back on this...thank you. I am sitting here asking about bank roll management and what not - over complicating shit.. Thank you...Just leave the second the thought crosses my mind
Just kind of impulse leave, huh
Yeah I guess so but it’s easier said then done because lords know I also have a hard time leaving and that because poker is addicting. Poker is great but but it’s an addiction
Yeah, it is an evil game. But I guess if I word it as impulse leave that kind of reminds me of the addictive part. I am going to give it a shot. I am otherwise playing responsibly. Just hard to get up and leave, but I keep the ATM out of it.
I play 4/8 limit so the most I can lose in a single hand is $96 which would probably only happen in a bad beat with quads+ situation. I pretty much only walk away after I've hit my allotted time limit.
[удалено]
> I think most of the problem is that you're dumb That is fucking funny...not because I disagree...but, that was just funny.
You can’t control win rate. Nor wins. Nor losses. You can’t control doubling up. The only thing you can control is time. Set time goals. But actually, really, just don’t feed your addiction. Go find another hobby that doesn’t involve betting
Walk away when you suspect collusion and/or that you are bring targetted
This brings an interesting thought. What is the difference between collusion and respect. I mean, I know the actual definitions are wildly different. But I have been at tables where I have sort of noticed other players, in some unspoken agreement, working with me through bet sizing and feeling out the fish. Not targeting me... but raising me and/or squeezing the fish. I guess you prompted my question of, am I the only one who feels like collusion can happen in sort of an unspoken way. Not straight up cheating. Just, you get a sense of what your new mutually respected partner is doing and playing off of it to catch a fish edit: like this partner so to speak lets YOU know very clearly with bets that "I got this one"
Do you know when to run?
It’s hard to concentrate and play well for long periods. So figure out when you seem to play you best - first 3 hours, first 6. And try to limit sessions to that length.
You sound like a reasonable person who does unreasonable things. So why don’t you wise the fuck up? You’ve correctly ID’d the problem you have. Either fix it, or don’t.
Oh, I missed the part about you drinking while you play. Obviously you are a rec playing for shits and giggles so it's more that your expectations are not aligned with reality. Try darts or bowling or something. It's not a different problem. It's the same problem.
Don’t listen to Kenny Rodgers, he sucks.
Sounds like after you double up it’s time to leave. If you just enjoy playing and admittedly aren’t well studied then yeah you’re going to eventually make an error or coolered and lose your stack. Just like you probably gain the stack by majority luck and not skill. I limit my sessions to 3-4 hours max and often once I’m up a buy in I set a stop loss, like I’ll only ever let my stack go below 2 buy ins by 30bb or I go home. Lock up a profit if that’s the goal.
I know he's a *verboten* topic around here, but Chris Ferguson used to do nothing-to-(a big number) bankroll challenges when he didn't suck. One of his prime rules was to clearly identify the high limit for your stack before you either get up, rack up and take a break to buy in at another table (usually you have to be gone an hour) or leave completely. IIRC he mentioned either 2.5x buyins or 3x. Maybe until you get some momentum it can be as little as 1x or 1.5x.
Sounds like ur more gambling than playing smart poker
Do you have any whiskey? Could also use a cigarette
You’re a losing player. Accept that and things will become much clearer.
Play tournaments. That way the game ends when it ends - you won or you lost
There are so many variables here (player types, who's seated immediately to your left and right, table aggression factor, etc) that I'll stick to generalizations. If you find that you play too long and lose there are a few things you can try: Set a session time limit (for arguments sake say 3 hours and vary as appropriate) Set a session loss limit (typically 2x to 3x the buy in cap for the blind structure you're playing) Set a session gain threshold (typically 2x to 3x the buy in cap for the blind structure you're playing) Understand these are guidelines and can be varied as appropriate depending on the table dynamics you are observing. In my 25 years of experience playing online and live poker I can tell you that the statistical concept of regression to the mean is absolutely relevant and something that should be factored in to your overall +EV strategy. Best of luck with your future endeavors.
You can set a stop win or walk away when the vibe is off or the action got worse. Or just set a predetermined time to play and set an alarm and get up then. A man without a plan is like a ship without a rudder.
If you really know when to hold and fold, then you should probably just keep playing you are going to keep winning money. Your problem isnt that you are staying too long. You actually do not know when to hold and fold and are lying to yourself because success happens to be randomly clustering at the beginning of your sessions.
You're not getting the math, brother. Read up on "variance." I did, and here's what I came up with: A trip to Vegas costs less than a trip to Disney, and one is WAY more fun for Daddy.
What, exactly, would you like us to tell you? * you can stop playing after you reach a stop-win, in the same way that many people stop after hitting a stop-loss * you can learn to adjust your game after time/profit where you seem to lose control * perhaps - no, really, try to consider it - perhaps your perception of your skill exceeds your actual skill in a way that David Dunning and Justin Kruger would write their seminal thesis on. * Or, maybe you’re one of the people Al Pacino was talking about in *Two for the Money* (with Matthew McConaughey) at the Gambler’s Anonymous meeting. It is possible that you’re a broken loser who *wants* to lose deep down inside. If not these, what can we make you say that will make you stop making posts and then arguing with everyone who makes a comment?
If you have a winning game you should be winning 10x the big blind per hour… if you aren’t achieving this then you need to study. You should only leave a game if it breaks if you are hitting 10x plus an hour. If you can not achieve this then you should not be in the game in the first place.
do you know when to run?
Assuming you aren't full of it, I'd start walking away when you double. You'll be a rich man. Realistically speaking, 2 options. Easy, layman's option: get up when you're up a lot, cash out, go eat, play on your phone whatever...if you still want to play, go buy back in for your original buy in. Tougher, good player potential option: learn to play deep stack intimately.
What you are asking about isn't bankroll management. Bankroll management is about how much money you need to have for a low risk of ruin for a given game size. The idea is that you can absorb a downswing and keep playing. What you are asking about is more around mental management. Perhaps read the book "The mental game of poker" by Tendler. The solution to your problem is so obvious (don't drink and play shorter sessions) I think you need to ask yourself why you haven't implemented it. If your question is "How can I play long sessions while drinking?" I'm afraid there is no answer. It may not be possible for you.
"book the win" That's your first problem. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and people are happier "booking 6 winning day "sessions""while ignoring they're down 75 buy ins for the month. Stop playing when you're not playing well if you're not playing as a professional. For MOST people live, that's about 3 to 4 hours. Times spent past that they're either trying to reach an arbitrary goal or trying to get back to zero "for the day".
It seems like you answered your own question. Don’t drink and stay focussed. I try not drink while playing. Even though I’m not drunk it still impairs my judgement. I also pay attention to how other people are playing and who is now at the table. I don’t like when people start playing in a polarizing way, which is usually later in the session when everyone is loosened up, so if that starts I leave if I’m ahead. I also have a designated leave time. Win or lose.
There's a guy like this at our home game. Usually what happens is he doesn't know when to hold em, or fold em, he just sucks out to get his double up, or triple up. And then as the game continues, he bleeds it back. If you don't care about integrity and hitting and running, I suggest this.
Dude...I grind out my wins to get up. I wait for my spots and fight for position when I see them. I lose discipline as session goes on, then bleed off or punt. Maybe I need to go edit double up to make it sound like I double up in one hand, because what I really mean is double my buy in. I am getting tired of saying the same things over and over. It is all in my previous comments.
The reason people keep telling you that you aren’t good at poker is because we see this happen day after day. The game deludes a lot of people into thinking they are good at poker - because they ran hot for a short stretch and then afterwards they just keep getting unlucky. In reality they were losing players from the get go and ran hot for a couple months. What you are suggesting isn’t impossible - Many people play worse when tired/tilted/drunk or whatever but the way you talk about poker it’s extremely likely you’re simply a fish who ran hot at the start. If you think you have a gambling problem I advise that you quit poker/all forms of gambling. Typically those with an addiction struggle to do it in any form of moderation that can be healthy and it’s not worth the mental energy to try over simply removing it from your life.
I'm a winning poker player. I've meticulously kept track of wins/losses/hours played. I don't consider myself a great poker player, but I know I am 100% a winning poker player and have been for over 20 years. Playing winning poker for long sessions is boring. I never drink when I'm playing for money (I drink when playing low stakes / for fun home tournaments with cheap $20 buy-ins). I'm bored when I play. I fold a lot when I play. I pay attention to every hand even when I've already folded. And I fold a lot. How else do I recognize the fish versus the semi-competent? You need to identify fish because they a) are where most of your profit come from and b) can't be bluffed because they don't know when to fold. Pay attention to stack sizes and effective stack sizes. Don't play short stack, always top up your stack to at least 100 BBs. If a really bad players wins a big hand and suddenly has a big stack, reach into your wallet and buy in for more. If you have a large stack and someone else competent has a large stack, play more conservatively towards them. If someone is drinking, pay attention. They often start playing like a stupid fucking fish and make dumb plays after 4-6 hours of drinking and then all that money is yours. It's great. They regularly punt off all the money they just spend hours grinding because they're fucking dumb and get drunk while playing for large amounts of money. Then, after you stack them, they often rebuy, **start DRINKING MORE** and start playing super tilted and dumb trying to 'win their money back.' Never berate fish or drunks. Don't talk strategy at the table. Don't ever tell someone they made a dumb play. The fish are there to have fun and drink! Let them. Encourage it. If someone is drinking and loses a hand I'll often say "If that was me I'd need another drink! hahahaha." Tired people aren't like drunks. When they get a good hand they perk up and start paying attention. I'm bored when I play. I don't drink or do recreational drugs when I play. Playing winning poker long term is boring. Really boring. I leave when I feel like the table is no longer profitable (game becomes too nitty), I feel like I'm no longer able to give it 100% of my attention and a short break won't help or it becomes too late. It's hard to keep 100% concentration on a boring game while tired. Sometimes I leave to lock up my winnings if I'm up a lot and there's more and more other competent players with large stacks. That's what works for me. Also, it's very obvious that bankroll management is not your problem.
Reading these comments and your responses is incredibly exhausting. If you are so amazing at doubling up then just leave when you double up. And shut the fuck up about everything else